Johnny Marinville [or...Least Favorite SK Protagonists]
David Hendrix
I've just finished (finally) reading that Celebrity Deathmatch thread --
I'm way, way behind in this group, obviously.
Between that, and the many comments about him in threads about
Desperation and The Regulators, I got to wondering...
Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
sort of role?
Or is there another?
--
DTH
Michael Ende
"David Hendrix" <dthendrix_...@mochamail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1652471d4...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> All righty, then...
>
> I've just finished (finally) reading that Celebrity Deathmatch thread --
> I'm way, way behind in this group, obviously.
>
> Between that, and the many comments about him in threads about
> Desperation and The Regulators, I got to wondering...
>
> Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
>
> Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
> sort of role?
>
> Or is there another?
who, although he couldn't sleep, kept putting ME to sleep.
>
> --
> DTH
Robert Whelan
I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
"Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
him, I believe.
Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
Kathy
>
He grew on me. I think he was more likeable in Regulators than in Desperation.
From his first appearance, I applied George Carlin's (10 years ago) face to him
in my imagination.
Kathy
Kathy
<<to reply: REMOVEIT!>>
-<PsychoSy>-
>
>"David Hendrix" <dthendrix_...@mochamail.com> wrote in message
>news:MPG.1652471d4...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> All righty, then...
>>
>> I've just finished (finally) reading that Celebrity Deathmatch thread --
>> I'm way, way behind in this group, obviously.
>>
>> Between that, and the many comments about him in threads about
>> Desperation and The Regulators, I got to wondering...
>>
>> Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
> I liked him.
Same here. And for some reason, I kept picturing him as looking a lot
like George Carlin just with a lot more hair! :)
>>
>> Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
>> sort of role?
The Regulators, maybe.
Desperation, I disagree.
>> Or is there another?
> I personally couldn't stand Ralph Roberts. I thought he was an old F*ck
>who, although he couldn't sleep, kept putting ME to sleep.
I didn't mind Ralph at all.
My least favorite protagonist would have to go to The Stand's Larry
Underwood, even though he slowly grew on me late in novel. But getting
that point was a bore.
>> --
>> DTH
>
Looney
Ask not for whom the shit-bell tolls...
Such leaps of logic prove that you lack the capacity to think rationally...
Anthony "Looney" Toohey
-------------------------------------
"Very few authors, especially the unpublished,
can resist an invitation to read aloud."
- Truman Capote: Breakfast at Tiffany's
Scott
>
> Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
>
> Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
> sort of role?
>
> Or is there another?
>
> --
> DTH
I've only read Regulators once (lost my copy somewhere) so I
can only associate JM with Desperation.
It's this pompous unredeemable (sorry, not even at the end)
dink that I can't stand.
-Scott
Wojo
who feel they have a right to speak their minds! A source, insisting
I don't think SK ever intended for us to "like" him...he showed his
good and bad sides, IMO. I think he did a bad job of re-creating Jack
Torrence with Marinville when he wrote Desperation.
Wojo
Wojo
who feel they have a right to speak their minds! A source, insisting
Alan, IMO, wasn't supposed to be depicted as a "hero".
Wojo
joseph otterstrom
Wojo wrote:
>
> I don't think SK ever intended for us to "like" him...he showed his
> good and bad sides, IMO. I think he did a bad job of re-creating Jack
> Torrence with Marinville when he wrote Desperation.
>
> Wojo
It's interesting that everyone seems to dislike this character so much.
Personally, while he may not be the most heroic of King's protagonists,
especially in contrast to Jack Sawyer, the loser's club, and even the other
protagonist from Desperation (Carver, I don't remember his first name right
now). However he is still a very human person who reminds me much of other
memorable characters, like Larry Underwood, Gard, from the Tommyknockers, and
even in someway, Roland from the Gunslinger. Ther exception with the last
being that while war and chaos made Roland's will much more resolved and
steadfast, it made Johnny's will disappear like the wind.
I actually found Marinville, in both of the books to be much more realistic
than the other characters. Especially in Desperation, where I found the boy
to be too good, that he was unbelievable and a little hookey. More
importantly, Johnny was the dynamic character in both of these novels. The
one who was able to adapt to the terrible situations and change in order to
win in the end.
Joe
Wojo
who feel they have a right to speak their minds! A source, insisting
>It's interesting that everyone seems to dislike this character so much.
>Personally, while he may not be the most heroic of King's protagonists,
>especially in contrast to Jack Sawyer, the loser's club, and even the other
>protagonist from Desperation (Carver, I don't remember his first name right
>now). However he is still a very human person who reminds me much of other
>memorable characters, like Larry Underwood, Gard, from the Tommyknockers, and
>even in someway, Roland from the Gunslinger. Ther exception with the last
>being that while war and chaos made Roland's will much more resolved and
>steadfast, it made Johnny's will disappear like the wind.
>
>I actually found Marinville, in both of the books to be much more realistic
>than the other characters. Especially in Desperation, where I found the boy
>to be too good, that he was unbelievable and a little hookey. More
>importantly, Johnny was the dynamic character in both of these novels. The
>one who was able to adapt to the terrible situations and change in order to
>win in the end.
It was "David" Carver. :)
And I don't dislike him, I just didn't particularly *like* him. I did
think he was somewhat realistic, at least in Desperation (less so in
the Regulators, methinks). He was well built, but I wonder if we were
supposed to feel sorry for his mistakes the way we sometimes did
toward a similar character, Jack Torrence?
Wojo
joseph otterstrom
Wojo wrote:
>
>
> It was "David" Carver. :)
>
> And I don't dislike him, I just didn't particularly *like* him. I did
> think he was somewhat realistic, at least in Desperation (less so in
> the Regulators, methinks). He was well built, but I wonder if we were
> supposed to feel sorry for his mistakes the way we sometimes did
> toward a similar character, Jack Torrence?
>
Thanks for the assist on "David" Wojo, for some reason all I could remember was
that one of the Carver's was named Ralph.
I think that you might be right about being asked to feel sorry for him because of
the mistakes of his past. However, unlike Jack Torrance, who never really owned
up for his mistakes, nor really tried to really get past them, Johnny in both of
the books did seem to actually be trying to do so. After all in Desperation, the
purpose of his trip was to return to the life that he almost destroyed. In the
Regulators he was a successful children writer, who was just enjoying the peace
and solitude he had found in Ohio.
Joe
Wojo
who feel they have a right to speak their minds! A source, insisting
on anonymity, was revealed to be joseph otterstrom, who said:
I don't argue that, and I do think he was pretty well drawn. But at
the end of Desperation I *still* didn't like him, and don't mind him
dead. I didn't like the character in The Regulators at *all*...I
thought he was the worst thing about that book.
Wojo
Cozy
Robert Whelan wrote:
>
> I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> him, I believe.
> Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
In what way did you consider them to be examples (good or bad) of
"heroes"? Protagonists, certainly, but heroes?
I got curious and consulted Mr. Webster. "Protagonist" is defined
as "a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or
story) b : a leading actor,character, or participant in a
literary work or real event."
"Hero" is defined as "1 a : a mythological or legendary figure
often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b
: an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and
noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work."
I think most of King's characters fall into "protagonist." They
don't meet the classical definition of "hero." They're often
ordinary people thrust unwillingly into extraordinary situations,
who deal with said situations as best they can - hence their
appeal. I'm probably coming off as unnecessarily nitpicky here
with the definitions, but I think the word "hero" is overused
these days, a label slapped on everyone from those who risk (and
give) their lives for others to pituitary freaks who can shove
balls into hoops.
Besides, why does the protagonist always have to be heroic, or
even likable? Look at Macbeth. Look at the Compson family in "The
Sound and the Fury." Look at Scarlet O'Hara. Would you invite
*any* of them to dinner?
--
- K. Cozy
"Why is the alphabet in that order? Is it because of that song?"
Rev. Bleech_
forth:
>Besides, why does the protagonist always have to be heroic, or
>even likable? Look at Macbeth. Look at the Compson family in "The
>Sound and the Fury." Look at Scarlet O'Hara. Would you invite
>*any* of them to dinner?
Of course not. Whelan doesn't eat dinner because he's REALLY A KILLER
ROBOT
--
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-==-=-=
BleechWorld : Too Fly to Die - http://bleechworld.cjb.net
To e-mail me, nevermind the BOLLOCKS | Yar. FOAD.
=-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-==-=-=
'What is this music, Tim ? It lacks the crisp dynamics of Mr. Billy Ocean !'
Floyd Code : v1.2a r BO 0/0/r tinG 0- 0 Animals/WYWH 28 182 22.3% <04nov01>
Robert Whelan
>
>
> Robert Whelan wrote:
> >
> > I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> > "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> > him, I believe.
> > Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
>
> In what way did you consider them to be examples (good or bad) of
> "heroes"? Protagonists, certainly, but heroes?
> I got curious and consulted Mr. Webster. "Protagonist" is defined
> as "a : the principal character in a literary work (as a drama or
> story) b : a leading actor,character, or participant in a
> literary work or real event."
>
> "Hero" is defined as "1 a : a mythological or legendary figure
> often of divine descent endowed with great strength or ability b
> : an illustrious warrior c : a man admired for his achievements and
> noble qualities d : one that shows great courage
> 2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work."
Right. I was using hero in the second sense, which is almost
identical with the definition of "protagonist". I believe that
the person I was replying to used it in that way. "Hero" in the
sense that someone has chosen to focus on his deeds in a tale,
even if the deeds aren't classically "heroic".
> I think most of King's characters fall into "protagonist." They
> don't meet the classical definition of "hero." They're often
> ordinary people thrust unwillingly into extraordinary situations,
> who deal with said situations as best they can - hence their
> appeal. I'm probably coming off as unnecessarily nitpicky here
> with the definitions, but I think the word "hero" is overused
> these days, a label slapped on everyone from those who risk (and
> give) their lives for others to pituitary freaks who can shove
> balls into hoops.
I think that the second sense of "hero" is often sarcastic. I'm
certainly sarcastic when I refer to Peter or Alan as "heros".
Cuthbert Allgood
<skc...@earthlink.net>! Yes, people, that very person who dared to say
what follows:
> In what way did you consider them to be examples (good or bad) of
> "heroes"? Protagonists, certainly, but heroes?
> I got curious and consulted Mr. Webster.
> "Hero" is defined as
[CUT]
> 2 a : the principal male character in a literary or dramatic work."
^_^
Here we got our "heroes" (with David Bowian brackets, if you like).
'Bert
--
www.insideview.it is the on-line magazine made by and intended for Stephen
King's Constant Readers. Read the English version
"Time is a face on the water" Stephen King
Cozy
Robert Whelan wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Cozy wrote:
>
I'm probably coming off as unnecessarily nitpicky here
> > with the definitions, but I think the word "hero" is overused
> > these days, a label slapped on everyone from those who risk (and
> > give) their lives for others to pituitary freaks who can shove
> > balls into hoops.
>
> I think that the second sense of "hero" is often sarcastic.
Eeeh, I don't know. From the way people acted when they had the
Laker parade in L.A., you'd have thought it was Jesus and the
disciples heading down the street.
> I'm
> certainly sarcastic when I refer to Peter or Alan as "heros".
I can't vouch for Alan (haven't read "Riding the Bullet") but
since Pete is, as you say, a "protagonist" rather than a
classical hero, why the sarcasm? Just out of curiosity, tell me:
Do you feel that you have to like or admire a protagonist? Does
a flawed or unsympathetic protagonist just not work for you?
I find it interesting to see what characters people like and
don't like, and why. I finished a manuscript this year and I
found that one character who started out as something of a
"second banana" ended up being nearly everyone's favorite. I also
got into a debate with my mom about one character - she didn't
like him. I said, "Mom, whether you like him or not doesn't
matter. You don't have to marry him or anything. Was he
believable?" She conceded that he was. And that was good enough
for me.
I'm not saying that every protagonist should be an asshole. But
neither should they all be white knights. Saints may be good
people, but they can be annoying - that's why so many of them
were martyred, they got on peoples' nerves.
--
- K. (better stop now before my caffiene jones renders me totally
incoherent) Cozy
"Workshed!"
Robert Whelan
>
>
> Robert Whelan wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Cozy wrote:
> >
> I'm probably coming off as unnecessarily nitpicky here
> > > with the definitions, but I think the word "hero" is overused
> > > these days, a label slapped on everyone from those who risk (and
> > > give) their lives for others to pituitary freaks who can shove
> > > balls into hoops.
> >
> > I think that the second sense of "hero" is often sarcastic.
>
> Eeeh, I don't know. From the way people acted when they had the
> Laker parade in L.A., you'd have thought it was Jesus and the
> disciples heading down the street.
Even without the sarcasm, "hero" is used to describe a protagonist,
even if he isn't admirable.
> > I'm
> > certainly sarcastic when I refer to Peter or Alan as "heros".
>
> I can't vouch for Alan (haven't read "Riding the Bullet") but
> since Pete is, as you say, a "protagonist" rather than a
> classical hero, why the sarcasm? Just out of curiosity, tell me:
> Do you feel that you have to like or admire a protagonist? Does
> a flawed or unsympathetic protagonist just not work for you?
Again, "hero" has a meaning of simply "protagonist". I don't
think you do have to like or admire a protagonist, but if
you don't, "hero" is fine, especially if you don't like or
admire him, and are being sarcastic about his "heroism", referring
to his unlikeable, unadmirable deeds, which are being focused
on by the tale in a manner that FORMERLY, in classical times,
was reserved for the admirable.
> I find it interesting to see what characters people like and
> don't like, and why. I finished a manuscript this year and I
> found that one character who started out as something of a
> "second banana" ended up being nearly everyone's favorite. I also
> got into a debate with my mom about one character - she didn't
> like him. I said, "Mom, whether you like him or not doesn't
> matter. You don't have to marry him or anything. Was he
> believable?" She conceded that he was. And that was good enough
> for me.
Yeah, why can't people enjoy DISLIKING a character? I was upset
with someone who I was trying to introduce to Tolkien "I don't
like Gollum.." she said...
> I'm not saying that every protagonist should be an asshole. But
> neither should they all be white knights. Saints may be good
> people, but they can be annoying - that's why so many of them
> were martyred, they got on peoples' nerves.
Thanks for warning me... :)
Lisa-Ann
news:3BEA1855...@earthlink.net...
Yes. I would invite Scarlett O'Hara to dinner, if only to find out *why*
she wasted so many years yearning for such a wimp as Ashley Wilkes. Oh, and
to ask her how she made that dress out of her mother's drapes. <g>
Lisa Ann
Dragonwench
David Hendrix
found that Michael Ende had written:
> > Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
> I liked him.
I think you'd fall into the minority there.
And there are lots of reasons why, in both Regs and Desperation. Besides
being very vain and self-centered, I remember one scene where all their
lives are in danger, everything hanging in the balance, yet he's busy
checking out a woman's body, just hours after her Collie Entragian
killed her husband.
> > Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
> > sort of role?
> > Or is there another?
> I personally couldn't stand Ralph Roberts. I thought he was an old F*ck
> who, although he couldn't sleep, kept putting ME to sleep.
I don't consider Ralph a "wanker." Just a sad old man. I didn't find him
dislikable, just a little boring, as you mention.
--
DTH
David Hendrix
> > Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
> > Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
> > sort of role?
> > Or is there another?
> I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> him, I believe.
> Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
He's been creating a lot of guys like that since he went sober and gave
up drugs...ironically, during the same period in which he's really
improving with female characters, IMO.
Part of the recovery process involves being brutally honest with oneself.
This can include a lot of self-hate, which can last for years. If King
really created these guys from parts of himself, then he obviously had a
lot of bad feelings still lying around.
--
DTH
David Hendrix
> >Robert Whelan wrote:
> > I'm certainly sarcastic when I refer to Peter or Alan as "heros".
> I can't vouch for Alan (haven't read "Riding the Bullet") but
> since Pete is, as you say, a "protagonist" rather than a
> classical hero, why the sarcasm? Just out of curiosity, tell me:
> Do you feel that you have to like or admire a protagonist? Does
> a flawed or unsympathetic protagonist just not work for you?
Flawed is fine. Flawed is human. Most of my favorite SK protags, like
John Smith and Jack Torrance, were *very* flawed.
Marinville's diffent, tho. In a lot of ways, he was a really despicable
human being. [And I'm *not* talking about the alcoholic/drug addict
thing.] And even toward the end of Desperation, when he was supposedly
making a turnaround and doing something heroic at the end...I didn't
quite buy it.
--
DTH
David Hendrix
> I don't dislike him, I just didn't particularly *like* him. I did
> think he was somewhat realistic, at least in Desperation (less so in
> the Regulators, methinks). He was well built, but I wonder if we were
> supposed to feel sorry for his mistakes the way we sometimes did
> toward a similar character, Jack Torrence?
It was pretty easy to feel sympathy for Jack. He was a regular guy, a
teacher. What made him drink was the common, everyday problems regular
guys all over the world face every day.
Marinville's reason was, apparently, feeling kind of sorry for himself
for being a big, wealthy, famous writer but still not winning the
National Book Award, and for having so much idle time on his hands. ;)
This is what I meant when I called him a "wanker." And I personally have
difficulty feeling sorry for that type.
--
DTH
David Hendrix
> > Besides, why does the protagonist always have to be heroic, or
> > even likable? Look at Macbeth. Look at the Compson family in "The
> > Sound and the Fury." Look at Scarlet O'Hara. Would you invite
> > *any* of them to dinner?
> Yes. I would invite Scarlett O'Hara to dinner, if only to find out *why*
> she wasted so many years yearning for such a wimp as Ashley Wilkes.
There's a certain breed of woman who only wants that which is
unattainable, and then will cast it aside when they finally get it. And
Miz Scawlett is their patron(ess) saint.
> Oh, and to ask her how she made that dress out of her mother's drapes.
> <g>
I think Mammy did it, but was never properly credited. Just another
example of the Suthin white upper-crusties of that era benefiting from
the sweat and labor of the cullah'ed folk.
--
DTH
A man who don' know nuthin' 'bout birthin' no bay-bees, neethah --
Robert Whelan
> I consulted the ancient runes in the book of alt.books.stephen-king and
> found that Robert Whelan had written:
>
> > > Does anybody here actually *like* John Marinville?
>
> > > Is he, in fact, the biggest wanker that SK has ever put into a "heroic"
> > > sort of role?
>
> > > Or is there another?
>
> > I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> > "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> > him, I believe.
>
> > Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
>
> He's been creating a lot of guys like that since he went sober and gave
> up drugs...ironically, during the same period in which he's really
> improving with female characters, IMO.
like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
any other "improved" female characters? I feel, since he gave up
drugs, that females have degraded to largely comfort/fantasy figures,
perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
> Part of the recovery process involves being brutally honest with oneself.
> This can include a lot of self-hate, which can last for years. If King
> really created these guys from parts of himself, then he obviously had a
> lot of bad feelings still lying around.
True.
Looney
>like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
>any other "improved" female characters? I feel, since he gave up
>drugs, that females have degraded to largely comfort/fantasy figures,
>perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
>
You "feel" that because you're an idiot.
HTH
Jeff George
>
> RW wrote:
> >like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
> >any other "improved" female characters? I feel, since he gave up
> >drugs, that females have degraded to largely comfort/fantasy figures,
> >perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
> >
>
> You "feel" that because you're an idiot.
>
Still spouting off at the mouth. What a moron.
--
=====================================================================
I don't want this anger that's burning in me.
It's something from which it's so hard to be free.
But none of the tears that we cry in sorrow or rage
Can make any difference, or turn back the page.
- David Gilmour
=====================================================================
Jeff George
Looney
>Looney wrote:
>>
>> RW wrote:
>> >like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
>> >any other "improved" female characters? I feel, since he gave up
>> >drugs, that females have degraded to largely comfort/fantasy figures,
>> >perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
>> >
>>
>> You "feel" that because you're an idiot.
>>
>
>Still spouting off at the mouth. What a moron.
Coming from a fuckwit like you, that's a compliment. Come on back when you at
least have enough focus to keep your hand from slipping off your dick,
asshole...
Looney
>
>Gentlemen. Please.
>
>I can remember a time when it was at least *plausible* that we could
>talk about literature here in a civil manner.
>
>Brandy and cigars and book-talk, or pistols, twenty paces. Take your
>pick.
Hey, if Jeffie even resembled a gentleman, I'd be happy to pace off. I can
have a reasoned discussion with nearly anyone here, just not the
mouth-breathers like Jeffie and his tiny cadre...
Very tiny, so I hear tell...
David Hendrix
> >> RW wrote:
> > Jeff George wrote:
[Re: Female SK characters]
> >> >I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
> >> >any other "improved" female characters? I feel, since he gave up
> >> >drugs, that females have degraded to largely comfort/fantasy figures,
> >> >perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
> >> You "feel" that because you're an idiot.
> >Still spouting off at the mouth. What a moron.
>
> Coming from a fuckwit like you, that's a compliment. Come on back when you at
> least have enough focus to keep your hand from slipping off your dick,
> asshole...
Gentlemen. Please.
I can remember a time when it was at least *plausible* that we could
talk about literature here in a civil manner.
Brandy and cigars and book-talk, or pistols, twenty paces. Take your
pick.
--
DTH
David Hendrix
found that Robert Whelan had written:
> > I wrote:
> > > I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> > > "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> > > him, I believe.
> > > Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
> > He's been creating a lot of guys like that since he went sober and gave
> > up drugs...ironically, during the same period in which he's really
> > improving with female characters, IMO.
> like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
> any other "improved" female characters?
Interesting coincidence. She's the very first I would have mentioned, if
you hadn't already. Dug her in "Rose Madder," too, one of the few good
things about that one for me.
I'll throw in:
* Dolores Claiborne. Didn't like the book much per se, either story or
writing style, but thought she was a pretty well-drawn character.
* Lois what's-her-name, from "Insomnia." She reminded me of an aunt of
mine. Very few women from the pre-90s King works actually seem like a
"real" person to me at all, or remind me of anyone.
* The "new and improved" Frances Goldsmith from the Stand Uncut. It
really does seem like a quantum leap over the "original" Frannie. She
seems tougher, more independent, less whiny. [You might know better than
I whether this *counts* or not, though. Are these just old deleted
scenes from the alkie days thrown back in, or rewrites/additions
created during the "recovery" period? Either way, she does seem like a
"90s" SK woman.]
> I feel, since he gave up drugs, that females have degraded to largely
> comfort/fantasy figures, perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
Seems practically the opposite to me. I thought the women he came up
with during his 70s/80s heyday were basically mannequins. I *liked* most
of them, but I didn't find them *believable,* not even Wendy Smith or
Sarah Bracknell, my favorites. He didn't *know* how to characterize a
female back then, IMO; easily his biggest weakness in the earlier books.
[This includes young girls, too. Charlie McGee and Beverly Marsh were
not believable, either. Both seemed like 30-year-old women locked up in
pre-adolescent bodies.]
The women he's conjured up in the last decade or so, while flawed, seem
"real."
--
DTH
Robert Whelan
> I consulted the ancient runes in the book of alt.books.stephen-king and
> found that Robert Whelan had written:
>
>
> > > I wrote:
>
> > > > I don't remember John Marinville too well, but both Alan, from
> > > > "Riding the Bullet" and Pete, from _Hearts in Atlantis_ out-wank
> > > > him, I believe.
>
> > > > Such heroes are, I'm afraid, King's true self in recent years.
>
> > > He's been creating a lot of guys like that since he went sober and gave
> > > up drugs...ironically, during the same period in which he's really
> > > improving with female characters, IMO.
>
> > like who? I liked Cynthia in DESPERATION, but can you really think of
> > any other "improved" female characters?
>
> Interesting coincidence. She's the very first I would have mentioned, if
> you hadn't already. Dug her in "Rose Madder," too, one of the few good
> things about that one for me.
>
> I'll throw in:
>
> * Dolores Claiborne. Didn't like the book much per se, either story or
> writing style, but thought she was a pretty well-drawn character.
I agree, but I consider DC a trailing end of Old King, even if it's
just post-Tommyknockers.
> * Lois what's-her-name, from "Insomnia." She reminded me of an aunt of
> mine. Very few women from the pre-90s King works actually seem like a
> "real" person to me at all, or remind me of anyone.
Donna from Cujo? That old lady who smoked a lot?
> * The "new and improved" Frances Goldsmith from the Stand Uncut. It
> really does seem like a quantum leap over the "original" Frannie. She
> seems tougher, more independent, less whiny.
What? How? The original Frannie doesn't whine over having to bury her
father.
[You might know better than
> I whether this *counts* or not, though. Are these just old deleted
> scenes from the alkie days thrown back in, or rewrites/additions
> created during the "recovery" period? Either way, she does seem like a
> "90s" SK woman.]
I know that the Original's Frannie degrades near the end to an idiot
shrieking "My Baby", and I haven't yet read the latter half of the
Uncut, so I don't know what King does with here there. But I
know he makes her MORE whiny and shrieky in the first half of the
Uncut.
> > I feel, since he gave up drugs, that females have degraded to largely
> > comfort/fantasy figures, perhaps as replacement for the comfort of drugs.
>
> Seems practically the opposite to me. I thought the women he came up
> with during his 70s/80s heyday were basically mannequins. I *liked* most
> of them, but I didn't find them *believable,* not even Wendy Smith or
> Sarah Bracknell, my favorites. He didn't *know* how to characterize a
> female back then, IMO; easily his biggest weakness in the earlier books.
> [This includes young girls, too. Charlie McGee and Beverly Marsh were
> not believable, either. Both seemed like 30-year-old women locked up in
> pre-adolescent bodies.]
>
> The women he's conjured up in the last decade or so, while flawed, seem
> "real."
Hmm. Well, I think I might agree that a flaw of his early women were
the lack of real feminine detail, but I think that, whatever his
lack in research, he got inside the characters, even if their
makeup wasn't that convincing. He BELIEVED in the characters. He
stood in their shoes. He felt what it was like to be them. Inhabited
their bodies, saw through their eyes, no matter the flaws in
imagining what their bodies, thinking, feelings would be like.
I don't know Lois from Insomnia, but characters like Rosie from
ROSE MADDER are empty beyond any excuse...with neither detail
or attempted authorial inhabitation. I suppose the worst example
is Trisha from Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, where, thought there
seems a plethora of detail, it seems plugged in, as if King went
over to Tabitha and picked her brain, and then just showcased
the details without taking the further step of imagining how it
might feel to live with those details. (forgive me if I'm wrong,
but isn't Cynthia a character in one of Tabitha's novels? I
don't know whether she appeared in a Tabitha novel first or a
King novel...anyone know?). Bag of Bones was horrible in it's
imagining of a little girl, completely fake...and the women
in it seemd to be irritating echoes of either Tabitha's
personality (Jo) or a hot sexy blonde body with King's thoughts
about literature plugged in (Mattie). Don't tell me Carol
from the "hearts in Atlantis" story in HIA was "real"
Note that I'm making a distincition between King trying to imagine
what a female character might be like, and seeing things from her
eyes, in the early days, and just plugging himself into a female
charaacter, as I've seen him do in the later days. There are
exceptions, as in Cynthia in DESPERATION, and perhaps Lois, as
you pointed out, but i notice you haven't noticed any really
good female characters since. (I don't think Cynthia's appearance
in BoB is anything like her character in DESPERATION.)
I just feel that his earlier depictions are SINCERE efforts to
see things from a female perspective, and you may be right that
these attempts improved over time. But then they started to
degrade...but along with almost every other aspect of his writing.