Dark Tower Question
Chris Gaines
(as everyone does regarding this series).
#1: Are John Farson and Marten the same person? It never says for sure (does
it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they are.
#2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature? In The
Gunslinger Walter gives the impression that Marten wasn't very powerful, and
that he (Walter) was only serving Marten for his own purposes, and eventually
even turns Marten over to the Gunslinger (who apparently kills him?). Walter
says his TRUE master is Merlin, the Ageless Stranger (revealed to be Flagg in
part 3), and he has only seen him in a dream, never in the flesh.
#3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this truth
from Walter? Any theories?
#4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless Stranger),
Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all different
manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the dominant
manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his TRUE name,
and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
#5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless Stranger
(Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast". Perhaps
the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply ANOTHER name
for Flagg?
All theories welcome.
Mark Edler
<19991127203951...@ng-cn1.aol.com>...
>Having recently delved into the Dark Tower series again, I have a few
questions
>(as everyone does regarding this series).
>
>#1: Are John Farson and Marten the same person? It never says for sure
(does
>it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they are.
All this Marten, Maerlyn, Merlin, and Walter business is very confusing. I'm
pretty sure that John Farson is Flagg which = Marten. Although John Farson
has the initials JF, and not RF... hmmm. It definately seems like Flagg
though
>
>#2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature? In The
>Gunslinger Walter gives the impression that Marten wasn't very powerful,
and
>that he (Walter) was only serving Marten for his own purposes, and
eventually
>even turns Marten over to the Gunslinger (who apparently kills him?).
Walter
>says his TRUE master is Merlin, the Ageless Stranger (revealed to be Flagg
in
>part 3), and he has only seen him in a dream, never in the flesh.
Walter mentions that Marten/Maerlyn is a much greater being than he... so I
don't think he was misleading Roland.
>#3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this truth
>from Walter? Any theories?
I didn't think he did.... did he?
>#4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless Stranger),
>Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all
different
>manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the dominant
>manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his TRUE
name,
>and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
I get the feeling that Flagg is just an evil servant of the Crimson King in
a physical embodiment, thus he has no true name. He just seems to like the
name Flagg a lot.
>#5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless Stranger
>(Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast".
Perhaps
>the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply ANOTHER
name
>for Flagg?
I doubt very much that Flagg is the Crimson King. And it's quite possible
that the Crimson King is just another servant of the true Beast, the keeper
of the Tower. The first time that I read about the Beast and it being an
"originator of glammer" it reminded me of the creature in IT.
>All theories welcome.
Thanks :)
Mark
Aaron Strader
>it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they are.
I'll only address the first three as I too am puzzled by the last two.
I think he is. See below for why.
>#2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature? In The
>Gunslinger Walter gives the impression that Marten wasn't very powerful, and
>that he (Walter) was only serving Marten for his own purposes, and eventually
>even turns Marten over to the Gunslinger (who apparently kills him?). Walter
>says his TRUE master is Merlin, the Ageless Stranger (revealed to be Flagg in
>part 3), and he has only seen him in a dream, never in the flesh.
King's all purpose bad guy is the same man in all of the stories.
Merlin, Flagg, Faraday, Farson, Marten, Ageless Stranger, Man in
Black, the Ramblin' Man, whatever you wanna call him it's all the same
man. He is an agent of a higher evil being, whether he's the right
hand man of the Crimson King or Lucifer's son, it's not yet been made
clear to me.
He apparently is a semi-mortal being, and it seems that in each of his
incarnations he becomes aware of his powers, but doesn't know who he
reports to, or why he has these powers, as he only seems to cause
loads of lethal and life endangering gags onto people, but nothing
globally catastrophic. Something like that would likely be left in
the hands of someone higher it seems. He's an imp of sorts.
He can be killed, but he'll only come back, only downside (for him) is
that he's initially unaware of what his powers will do for him, as
he'll find that out later.
>#3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this truth
>from Walter? Any theories?
As I theorize, he doesn't know who he was in a past life. He has some
inkling, I suppose (he recalls Lloyd from the "Stand" in "Wastelands")
but these are old foggy memories? He might have the power to shift
through time too and has not yet experienced that portion of his life
(in a Slaughterhouse Five way) yet.
>#4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless Stranger),
>Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all different
>manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the dominant
>manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his TRUE name,
>and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
Sure, I guess. He's evil and lying. I betcha he's actually a Smith
and he's tired of getting the "haha very funny, no what's your real
last name" routine... :-)
>#5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless Stranger
>(Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast". Perhaps
>the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply ANOTHER name
>for Flagg?
I don't think Flagg is anywhere near the top. He's not mean enough.
He comes across as a confident jerk with a chip on his shoulder about
what he can do to and for people. He screws things up too much to be
the top guy. I say impish in rank.
D. Davis
in the same timeframe, i.e., Roland's youth Farson is a rebel and Marten is
an enchanter. It is not provable, I suppose- I don't think they are every
referred to in the same sentence, and they both are not on-camera at the
same time that I know of. But I am pretty confident that Farson is the
world's most successful harrier, while Marten is a much worse fellow, and
one in a lot closer contact with the Tower.
Dave Davis
Jim Box
I've always thought Flagg was better at his purpose of making micheief
when he is in the role of advisor (ie EOTD) than when he is trying to
run things himself (ie the Stand -- he really wasn't able to keep things
together well at all).
I think he is one of Farson's closest advisors -- that way he can
incluence things then sit back and watch the fun.
-Jim
Mark Edler
Gunslinger", just before Roland and Cuthbert visit the gallows, it says
"Marten - known in some quarters as the good man."
Mark
D. Davis wrote in message <9Oc04.5373$tG2.1...@wbnws01.ne.mediaone.net>...
D. Davis
It is problematic. BTW, On the page before, we have Roland's father referred
to as 'Roland the elder'.
Even so, I think it was an error, a small slip, on SK's part*- we can't have
Farson, identified as 'the good man' in many places, as identical with
Marten- a few chapters later the great dance takes place - Marten dances
with Roland's mother in full view of Roland's father- impossible if this is
the man they are fighting. Facts given in "The Gunslinger" (DT One) don't
seem to work on the detail level- I guess it is more like the first edition
of the Hobbit than the beginning of The Lord of the Rings.
* I suppose it *could be* so --by magic-- but this would be difficult to
tolerate even under 'fantasy' rules. How can Farson direct a civil war while
hanging around Gilead seducing gunslinger's wives? Nah.
Dave
Mark Edler <kra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Uim04.242$A33....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
jor...@europa.com
: #1: Are John Farson and Marten the same person? It never says for sure (does
: it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they are.
In book 1 it says that Marten is "known in some quarters as 'the
Good Man'", all other references to the Good Man talk about Farson.
: #2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature?
Don't think so. He says that he works for the ageless stranger,
but has never met him. Ergo he doesn't know Marten is Flagg / ageless
stranger.
: #3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this truth
: from Walter? Any theories?
Probably a level of trust thing. Flagg's been burned before
(Trashcan Man.)
: #4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless Stranger),
: Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all different
: manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the dominant
: manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his TRUE name,
: and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
Dunno.
: #5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless Stranger
: (Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast". Perhaps
: the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply ANOTHER name
: for Flagg?
Book 4 has the red eye as being the mark of the Crimson King and
that mark is also Flagg's. Other than that we haven't seen a definitive
tie between the two.
- Jordan
jor...@europa.com
********************************************************************
* "Heroes are not giant statues framed against a red sky, they *
* are people who say: 'This is my community, and it's my *
* responsibility to make it better.'" *
* - Tom McCall, Oregon Governor 1967 - 1974 *
********************************************************************
McWatt
In article <19991127203951...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
cntry...@aol.com (Chris Gaines) wrote:
> Having recently delved into the Dark Tower series again, I have a few
questions
> (as everyone does regarding this series).
>
> #1: Are John Farson and Marten the same person? It never says for
sure (does
> it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they
are.
No, John Farson and Marten are not the same person. The reason it
doesn't say this is because it's easy to see that they aren't. John
Farson is just the leader of the rebellion (or whatever it is) and i'm
not quite sure what Marten was but he wasn't John Farson.
> #2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature? In The
> Gunslinger Walter gives the impression that Marten wasn't very
powerful, and
> that he (Walter) was only serving Marten for his own purposes, and
eventually
> even turns Marten over to the Gunslinger (who apparently kills him?).
Walter
> says his TRUE master is Merlin, the Ageless Stranger (revealed to be
Flagg in
> part 3), and he has only seen him in a dream, never in the flesh.
I don't think he was aware, no.
> #3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this
truth
> from Walter? Any theories?
Why do you think Marten is Merlin???. He's not.
> #4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless
Stranger),
> Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all
different
> manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the
dominant
> manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his
TRUE name,
> and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
There is no reason to suggest that Flagg would be his true name.
Flagg, Fannin and Merlin are all the same guy. He obviously uses
different names according to what world he's in and what he feels like
calling himself.
> #5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless
Stranger
> (Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast".
Perhaps
> the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply
ANOTHER name
> for Flagg?
Not to sure about the crimson king.
--
"Never mind the man behind the curtain"
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chris Gaines
<some snipped>
>No, John Farson and Marten are not the same person. The reason it
>doesn't say this is because it's easy to see that they aren't. John
>Farson is just the leader of the rebellion (or whatever it is) and i'm
>not quite sure what Marten was but he wasn't John Farson.
I tend to agree...hesitantly...with your viewpoint. But John Farson remains
something of a mystery. King seems to suggest Farson has some mystical powers
not unlike those of Marten.
In answer to my question as to whether or not Walter was aware of Marten's true
nature you replied:
>I don't think he was aware, no.
>
Walter never talks very highly of Marten at all, so I agree. He even says at
one point: "I came to your mother through Marten and took her." Now what does
THAT mean?
>Why do you think Marten is Merlin???. He's not.
I wish you would elaborate on why you think this. At the end of DT4, Roland
recognizes Marten (who says in DT3 that he is also known as the Ageless
Stranger and as Merlin). Marten-Merlin-Flagg seem to be the same person.
>Flagg, Fannin and Merlin are all the same guy.
But not Marten? Why?
>Not to sure about the crimson king.
Some surprising info on the crimson king can be found in "Insomnia"
CG
Cathy Miller
Garth? Is that you????
KAH
>It's possible that the Crimson King is The Beast, but I think they are
>also separate.
Joe, did this also give *you* pause?????
KAH
Scott Leis
>Having recently delved into the Dark Tower series again, I have a few questions
>(as everyone does regarding this series).
FWIW, here are my thoughts on these questions, though most of the
answers haven't been revealed for certain.
>#1: Are John Farson and Marten the same person? It never says for sure (does
>it?), but after Wizard and Glass, King seems to be suggesting they are.
I believe they are, but I'm not at all certain.
>#2: Is Walter (the man in black) aware of Marten's true nature? In The
>Gunslinger Walter gives the impression that Marten wasn't very powerful, and
>that he (Walter) was only serving Marten for his own purposes, and eventually
>even turns Marten over to the Gunslinger (who apparently kills him?). Walter
>says his TRUE master is Merlin, the Ageless Stranger (revealed to be Flagg in
>part 3), and he has only seen him in a dream, never in the flesh.
I don't believe Walter is aware of the truth. For one thing, the
Ageless Stranger is _not_ Merlin, if he was telling the truth. Near
the end of The Waste Lands, he says: "I have also been called Merlin
or Maerlyn - and who cares, because I was never _that_ one, although I
never denied it, either."
>#3: If Marten is Merlin (and Merlin is Flagg), why would he hide this truth
>from Walter? Any theories?
Walter seems to thinks that Marten and Flagg are separate people, and
that Marten is not very powerful. I think that Marten allowed Walter
to believe that because it suited his purpose to do so. I can only
guess at Marten's purpose... possibly safeguarding his identity,
reducing the chance of being found out by gunslingers.
>#4: King seems to be telling us that Marten, Merlin (The Ageless Stranger),
>Richard Fannin, Randall Flagg, and even perhaps John Farson are all different
>manifestations of the same evil being, with Flagg seemingly the dominant
>manifestation. Does the creature seem to be telling us Flagg is his TRUE name,
>and that the others (such as Merlin) were simply alter-egos?
I think "Flagg" is his preferred name; the closest he can get to
telling his true name. I don't know if King subcribes to the idea of
names having power, but if he does then Flagg's true name is unlikely
to be revealed to anyone other than his masters.
>#5: Is Flagg the Crimson King? Walter tells us that the Ageless Stranger
>(Flagg) serves under the "keeper of the Tower" known as "The Beast". Perhaps
>the Beast is the Crimson King? Or Perhaps Crimson King is simply ANOTHER name
>for Flagg?
I think the Crimson King is separate from (and higher than) Flagg.
It's possible that the Crimson King is The Beast, but I think they are
also separate.
>All theories welcome.
And, for the most part, they are just theories.
Shwade 2
*-- Let it Rock --*
Covenant
news:8273o9$c9s$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
> Scott Leis wrote:
> >It's possible that the Crimson King is The Beast, but I think they are
> >also separate.
> Joe, did this also give *you* pause?????
;')
--
Covenant.
A Man Merely Grinning........
Kira
>>>It's possible that the Crimson King is The Beast, but I think they are
>>>also separate.
>>
>>
>>Joe, did this also give *you* pause?????
>LOL! It made me wonder...
Well it is something to ponder hmmmm...
Kira
Scott Leis
<cove...@joelamb.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>KAH <ka.h...@erols.com> wrote in message
>news:8273o9$c9s$1...@autumn.news.rcn.net...
>> Scott Leis wrote:
>> >It's possible that the Crimson King is The Beast, but I think they are
>> >also separate.
>
>> Joe, did this also give *you* pause?????
>
>;')
>--
>
>Covenant.
>A Man Merely Grinning........
Is it _that_ amusing that didn't phrase that very well?
I didn't think there was anything wrong when I posted it, but now
you've drawn attention to it... damn.
Covenant
Scott Leis <sj_...@postoffice.utas.edu.au> wrote in message
news:384cc152...@newsroom.tassie.net.au...
Heeheehee...
NAH!
Nothing like that Scott....
Don't get paranoid...
BOO !!!!
;')
--
Covenant.
A Man With Far Too Much Time On His Hands