S/L DT V on the way...maybe.
Bob Jackson
AND the S/L edition. I hope that means that they will ship soon.
Bob
webster
: I just noticed that Grant charged my credit card on 10/23 for my Artist edition
: AND the S/L edition. I hope that means that they will ship soon.
Same here, Bob. I'm hoping they'll ship the artist edition separately
if the S/L is holding things up.
--
Bev Vincent
www.BevVincent.com
deathboy
"webster" <w...@corp.rigakumsc.com> wrote in message
news:ApFnb.991$jg7.1...@newshog.newsread.com...
I for one plan on calling them tomorrow and cancelling my artist edition if
they havent shipped it already. I hope alot of other people are having the
same idea and maybe grant will learn something finally.
B. Hamill
"deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message
news:MbednZ9hK8h...@comcast.com...
>
> I for one plan on calling them tomorrow and cancelling my artist edition
if
> they havent shipped it already. I hope alot of other people are having the
> same idea and maybe grant will learn something finally.
>
>
Sheesh...it's a BOOK! Not baby's milk! :)
Seriously, though...I live nearby so I actually went to get my artist
edition, and just so people have some sympathy, there are just four people
manually boxing 3,500 copies of the artist edition of DT V, 3,500 copies of
the Talisman/Black House book, as well as trade editions of DT V.
Not to defend them too much, but I had no clue they were that small an
operation...it's not like a warehouse operation where there's 40 people
standing around...they were boxing books by the dozen in the short time I
was there, and they are all going out in short order...if you want to screw
a small business, then by all means cancel your order and buy a Scribner
trade editon instead, becauase of course they need your money.
Just relax...the books look great...besides, you're not going to cancel,
what would you want with a regular trade edition anyway? Everybody's going
to have one of those...
deathboy
"B. Hamill" <NOS...@NOSPAM.COM> wrote in message
news:3LHnb.54393$e01.151054@attbi_s02...
the only reason i ordered the artist edition was to get it and read it 2
weeks early. if its not to me ahead of the trade edition I dont really want
it, and i will cancel it. besides, they hyped it as being 2 weeks early.
as for them being a small business, yes i am well aware of this, but as i've
said in the past, i'd have all the respect in the world for them if they
ever turned to king and said "sorry but you're too big for us to handle
properly so we're not going to do your book." since they arent about to make
such a bold move i expect them to therefore be able to handle their business
in a reasonable manner. my biggest problem with this is that in all
likelihood what they are doing is holding mine (and everyone else's) artist
edition until the signed/limited is ready so they can ship them together.
i'm sorry but that is just plain wrong (they charge shipping on each book,
no discount for combining shipments) and i'm not going to stand for it. what
they should have (and in this case i actually believe they may have
succeeded, save for the people they are trying to double up on) done is had
all the artists editions boxed and ready to be picked up by UPS last monday.
i'm thinking this or something close to it is exactly what they did, again
though with the exception of holding back on people who are waiting for the
signed/numbered.
>
>
B. Hamill
Yeah, I hear you....but, small business is small for a reason, and what
would the fun be if they handed the whole enterprise over to Scribner? So, I
can live with the wait for their books...also, they are NOT combining
shipping for the s/l editions, those will go out seperately (I couldn't get
mine yet)...I guess the shipping boxes are tailor made for the two volume
set...so if you ordered the artist edition, I think you should be getting it
anytime...but seriously, their place was just full of crates and boxes of
books that they were packing up, it was not at all what I expected.
You should get an artist edition though...the cover's nicer than the trade
edition and it's better made all around...it was only $20 or so more
anyway...and the T/BH gift set was real good looking, better looking than
the BH limited.
deathboy
>
> Yeah, I hear you....but, small business is small for a reason, and what
> would the fun be if they handed the whole enterprise over to Scribner? So,
I
> can live with the wait for their books...also, they are NOT combining
> shipping for the s/l editions, those will go out seperately (I couldn't
get
> mine yet)...I guess the shipping boxes are tailor made for the two volume
> set...so if you ordered the artist edition, I think you should be getting
it
> anytime...but seriously, their place was just full of crates and boxes of
> books that they were packing up, it was not at all what I expected.
>
> You should get an artist edition though...the cover's nicer than the trade
> edition and it's better made all around...it was only $20 or so more
> anyway...and the T/BH gift set was real good looking, better looking than
> the BH limited.
>
set, and i thought the BH limited was a huge disappointment. i certainly
dont mind spending the extra $20 or so to get the artist edition, what i do
mind is not getting it until december and having to buy the trade anyway. if
you're right about the shipping then thats great, but it still seems like
people who ordered both versions havent gotten the artist edition yet. is
there anyone who knows otherwise for a fact?
Bev Vincent
"Bob Jackson" <Bob_m...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:bnmk1...@drn.newsguy.com...
> I just noticed that Grant charged my credit card on 10/23 for my Artist
edition
> AND the S/L edition. I hope that means that they will ship soon.
See Item 7:
1. With TALISMAN/BLACK HOUSE late because of bindery problems shipping these
sets and the DARK TOWER V orders began to overlap. We have been working
extended hours to ship our orders as quickly as possible.
Preorders have been coming in since the beginning of July. Orders received
after 20 October may be delayed by a few weeks.
2. Almost all TALISMAN/BLACK HOUSE orders have been shipped. We still have
orders we can靖 ship because of an outdated or bad credit card charge. We
have attempted to email, phone or write everyone with this problem but have
still not heard from about 90 people. Please wait at least another week
before calling if you haven靖 received your order.
The gift sets can still be ordered at:
http://grantbooks.com/blackhouseorders.html
Rick Berry's original oil paintings from Stephen King零 and Peter Straub's
The TALISMAN are now for sale at:
http://www.braid.com/talismanart/
3. In the rush to get out orders as quickly as possible we were shipping
orders requiring a specific number at the same time we were shipping to
people who were not getting a specific number (To match their BLACK HOUSE or
WIZARD AND GLASS). We have erred a few times and are requesting that people
check what number TALISMAN/BLACK HOUSE they received and see if it matches
one of the following numbers (note-in a future newsletter we may list some
additional numbers):
110, 157, 243, 254, 328, 549, 642, 1135
If you have gotten one of these numbered sets we will exchange it for one
numbered below 100 and let you purchase a Deluxe Edition of WOLVES OF THE
CALLA. Because of our mistakes some of our customers have not gotten numbers
matching their other books.
We have several hundred people with credit charge problems of one sort or
another. We will contact you (by email or phone) when we get a chance but
things are so rushed right now that we hope you can understand that problem
orders must take a back seat until we can get caught up.
Some people have asked us to call them before we charge their credit card.
While we try to accommodate our customers we have thousands of orders to
charge every time we have a Stephen King book coming out. We don't start
charging cards until a just few weeks before we expect the book(s) back from
the binder. If you ask us to charge your card on a specific date, we can do
that, but we really cannot promise to call you to say we are charging your
card.
5. WOLVES OF THE CALLA Trade Edition
We currently have 4 pallets of Trade Editions packed and addressed and ready
to ship next week. We are shipping Trade Editions separately for orders with
a Trade and Artist and orders with a Trade and Deluxe.
6 WOLVES OF THE CALLA Deluxe Edition
We have the deluxes and the slipcases but only one has been shipped負 o
Stephen King. We need to box and shrink wrap these books and will begin
shipping them at the end of next week after we have caught up with all the
Trade and Artist editions. Because of the number problem with the
TALISMAN/BLACK HOUSE sets we need to be very careful with these.
7. WOLVES OF THE CALLA Artist Edition We began shipping the Artist Edition
last week and most of the orders have gone out. Orders with a deluxe will be
shipped together while artist and trade orders will ship separately.
8. DELUXE LOTTERY
We are no longer accepting lottery entries. We will not be drawing names for
available copies of the deluxe Signed & Numbered edition of WOLVES OF THE
CALLA before the end of November. If you are a winner we will contact you.
9. We are giving a 20% discount off the retail price of $35.00 on all orders
for the trade hardcover edition of THE DARK TOWER V: WOLVES OF THE CALLA.
Price with insured shipping is $33.00, not $40.00 as listed on our flyer and
website.
A number of people who ordered WIZARD AND GLASS from us have opted to
purchase the Trade Edition of WOLVES OF THE CALLA rather than the Artist
Edition. Accordingly, more copies are available than we anticipated and
everyone who sent in an order for the Artist Edition will receive one.
Individuals who ordered more than 1 copy of the Trade Edition of WIZARD AND
GLASS directly from us may order that many copies of the Artist Edition of
WOLVES OF THE CALLA plus one.
If you did not order a Trade Edition of WIZARD AND GLASS directly from us
you may order 1 copy only of the Artist Edition of WOLVES OF THE CALLA.
If you sent us an order for the Trade Edition of WOLVES OF THE CALLA and are
now ordering an Artist Edition we will send you both books unless you notify
us before the books go to our warehouse to process fro shipping.
10. Dealing with 4 different editions of Stephen King books has put us
behind schedule on BRADBURY: AN ILLUSTRATED LIFE. We hope to have it out by
Christmas and will provide an update in a future newsletter.
11. We have a policy of charging overseas and Canadian orders for exact
shipping cost. We give our customers the option of air or surface, insured
or uninsured shipping. These orders take a lot of time as we have to fill
out 4-part custom and insurance forms and often email, write or call our
customers a number of times. Because of the additional time involved they
will ship later than domestic orders.
Thank you.
Robert K. Wiener
President
Donald M. Grant, Publisher, Inc.
Bob Jackson
>yeah based on the pictures i've seen i'd agree with you about the T/BH gift
>set, and i thought the BH limited was a huge disappointment. i certainly
>dont mind spending the extra $20 or so to get the artist edition, what i do
>mind is not getting it until december and having to buy the trade anyway. if
>you're right about the shipping then thats great, but it still seems like
>people who ordered both versions havent gotten the artist edition yet. is
>there anyone who knows otherwise for a fact?
>
>
The e-mail newsletter that they sent yesterday says that they are doing exactly
that: holding orders that contained both the S/L and the artist edition until
both are ready so they can be shipped together. It does seem to be unfair
though, doesn't it? We are paying separate shipping charges for each book. We
(who ordered both) paid the same price (including shipping) for the artist
edition as those who only ordered the one book. And we get ours possibly weeks
later.
Bob
deathboy
"Bev Vincent" <MaxD...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xVPnb.1476$In4.1...@monger.newsread.com...
>
> "Bob Jackson" <Bob_m...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
> news:bnmk1...@drn.newsguy.com...
> > I just noticed that Grant charged my credit card on 10/23 for my Artist
> edition
> > AND the S/L edition. I hope that means that they will ship soon.
>
> See Item 7:
>
Yup, definately going to call and cancel my artist edition order.
John
>The e-mail newsletter that they sent yesterday says that they are doing
>exactly that: holding orders that contained both the S/L and the artist
>edition until both are ready so they can be shipped together. It does seem to
>be unfair though, doesn't it? We are paying separate shipping charges for
>each book. We (who ordered both) paid the same price (including shipping) for
>the artist edition as those who only ordered the one book. And we get ours
>possibly weeks later.
>
>Bob
Hi Bob!
Yep, does seem unfair. I think they should have shipped them all separately
as well - especially when they found out the S/L would be late again. But as
someone pointed out - they are a very small operation.
Since I am out of the S/L edition business, I ordered the Artist edition
(strictly for the sewn binding) and it finally arrived today. It looks pretty
good. I won't start reading it for at least a week or so - right in the middle
of the latest Dune novel and want to finish that first.
Later.
John
B. Hamill
>
>
You were right...I was wrong...you should clarify though, cause maybe they
changed their shipping policy...
deathboy
yeah after thinking over what you said about the boxes i realized that what
they were probably telling you is that the S/L edition was delayed due to a
problem with the box maker, but what they were referring to were the
slipcases for the books, not any sort of mailing boxes.
seeing as how the information here was quoted right from a very recent grant
news letter i'll take it as true. i couldnt seem to find their number on
their website so i tried an e-mail first. i managed to then dig up their
number off a mail order flyer, if i dont get an e-mail confirmation back
from then by monday i'll have to give them a call.
B. Hamill
the s/l editions (they would have given me mine, but they made some errors
with T/BH as the newsletter explained, and they were terrified of making the
same mistake with DT V, so they didn't want to mess up what they were
doing)...
The shipping boxes were the right size, plus had padding on the ends, so it
made sense that it would be for the two volue s/l edition by itself...and
they way it sounded was they were shipping artist and trade and then were
going to ship the s/l's when they got back from some convention next
week...still, they should give a rebate on shipping if they are going to
send the books together, so I can understand your annoyance...
"deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message
news:QsGdnUoxWo7...@comcast.com...
deathboy
> The shipping boxes were the right size, plus had padding on the ends, so
it
> made sense that it would be for the two volue s/l edition by itself...and
> they way it sounded was they were shipping artist and trade and then were
> going to ship the s/l's when they got back from some convention next
> week...still, they should give a rebate on shipping if they are going to
> send the books together, so I can understand your annoyance...
weird. it now makes even less sense that they would ship the artist along
with the s/l if they have these special boxes. oh well making sense isnt
their strong suit i suppose.
B. Hamill
"deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message
> weird. it now makes even less sense that they would ship the artist along
> with the s/l if they have these special boxes. oh well making sense isnt
> their strong suit i suppose.
Good point...they are no doubt trying to save on added work...most, if not
all, of the 1,500 people who are getting a s/l edition probably got an
artist or a trade as well, and from their end it makes sense to only ship
once...now that I think about it, I don't know how deep the boxes really
were, they would probably fit two books if need be...it was just comical,
though, there were just boxes and boxes of books stacked everywhere...it was
like the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark, that's not an extreme
exaggeration, believe me.
deathboy
yeah I believe it. I've never once tried to say that grant doesnt have a
whole heap of work to do when one of these books comes out, I just think
they can handle it better if they planned ahead. i mean theyve been doing
this for how long now? i mean jesus even i know the box maker is going to be
late! if i were them whenever i ordered slipcases if they told me theyd be
ready in 4 weeks i'd order them 8 weeks ahead of time.
Aaron Sanders
Heh, cool! (well, not for you, of course). This type of shipping is
called Direct Shipping with In-Transit Merge. It is typically used
when a customer has multiple parts to an order that come from
different manufacturers/facilities. However, the caveat is that the
items usually go together in some critical way, thus making it more
convenient for the customer (because receiving multiple shipments in
this case would be annoying, and useless). [1] This causes increased
costs due to inventory holding and logistics, but decreases shipping
costs; however, you'd think they would have figured out it's not a
good idea to use it in this sort of instance!
My supply chain management course is coming to be useful!
-Aaron
[1] While typically used to *raise* customer satisfaction, I think we
would all agree that in this case, the effect is completely the
opposite. Someone should be fired, and then they can hire me to work
for them instead!
John
>yeah I believe it. I've never once tried to say that grant doesnt have a
>whole heap of work to do when one of these books comes out, I just think
>they can handle it better if they planned ahead. i mean theyve been doing
>this for how long now? i mean jesus even i know the box maker is going to be
>late! if i were them whenever i ordered slipcases if they told me theyd be
>ready in 4 weeks i'd order them 8 weeks ahead of time.
Who's to say they didn't? Speaking from conversations I have had with
people in the small press business and articles I have read about the small
press the biggest problem they are facing is the smaller operations that used
to do things like printing and making boxes have gone out or are going out of
business. This forces the small press guys to use larger outfits that give
them less attention and are more prone to delay thie order to handle a much
larger order, or they have to go to new outfits that end up taking longer than
anticipated due to inexperience.
So what happens is they are told 4 weeks, they order 6-8 weeks ahead, and then
they receive word that the big company received a large order (worth 20-30
times what the small press guy ordered) that they had to fill first OR the
small outfit/new guy calls and says his main employee left and he had to find
a replacement, or his material supplier called and told him there would be a
delay shipping because he had to fill a much larger order "I'm sure you
udnerstand" and both inform the small press guy and there will be a slight
delay of 4 weeks, so sorry. Now they are behind schedule.
Believe me, it happens and 9 times out of 10 is the cause of these delays.
The less ornate and complex the special edition, the easier it is to get it on
time. DTV is a perfect example of this. The Artist edition has no slipcase, so
it was ready earlier.
deathboy
"Aaron Sanders" <aaro...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:42fd1f6a.03103...@posting.google.com...
ummm yeah ok. you do know just how big grant books is correct?
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:O%gob.8632$CP6.6218@okepread04...
happen so often? it really seems as though every book grant ever makes the
boxes are late. all i am saying is that in 7 years (my first experience with
this was desperation) they should have been able to solve the problem. order
them 12 weeks in advance then if you have to. I honestly get the impression
that grant just doesnt want to do this and doesnt care if their books are
always late because people will buy them anyway.
Aaron Sanders
Yes yes...I was kidding at the end there.
I do have a question though (you may have answered it already, but
indulge me):
Why did you buy both versions of the book from Grant right away in the
first place? Why not buy the artists one, and then get the regular one
later? This seems to be the cause of your problem anyway....
-Aaron
Bev Vincent
> all well and good and sounds perfectly reasonable, except why does it
> happen so often? it really seems as though every book grant ever makes the
> boxes are late. all i am saying is that in 7 years (my first experience
with
> this was desperation) they should have been able to solve the problem.
order
> them 12 weeks in advance then if you have to. I honestly get the
impression
> that grant just doesnt want to do this and doesnt care if their books are
> always late because people will buy them anyway.
I think the problem is that you can't order the slipcases until you have a
final idea of how big the book is going to be. The slipcases are custom and
they have to be snug enough to keep the book from falling out without being
so tight it's impossible to get the book out without damaging it.
They're not the only small press who've had books delayed substantially
because of problems with the slipcases. We just notice it more here because
of their regular production of King limiteds.
--
Bev Vincent
www.BevVincent.com
The Road to the Dark Tower, coming from NAL, November 2004
John
says...
>I think the problem is that you can't order the slipcases until you have a
>final idea of how big the book is going to be. The slipcases are custom and
>they have to be snug enough to keep the book from falling out without being
>so tight it's impossible to get the book out without damaging it.
>
>They're not the only small press who've had books delayed substantially
>because of problems with the slipcases. We just notice it more here because
>of their regular production of King limiteds.
>--
>Bev Vincent
Thanks Bev - you beat me to it.
And if anyone here follows Cemetery Dance much (which I know Bev does) I
believe they are with their third(???) slipcase maker in the last 4 years?
B. Hamill
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:FEBob.12067
> Thanks Bev - you beat me to it.
>
> And if anyone here follows Cemetery Dance much (which I know Bev does) I
believe they are with their third(???) slipcase maker in the last 4 years?
>
Good point...I for one am willing to put up with any self-induced
aggravation about it all, just because that's what makes the limited
editions so neat...if it was easy, you could just go to Barnes and Noble and
buy them, and what's the fun in that?
deathboy
if by "regular" one you mean the trade edition i wasnt planning on buying
that at all and never said I was *though i will have to now most likely)
fron grant i ordered the artist edition and the SIGNED/LIMITED edition. the
reason buying two fold, first to have both in my collection and secondly to
read the artist edition, and read it two weeks prior to the trade edition
(which i would have not bothered buying). removing the 2 week window as
grant has done makes it less appealing to have it, plus i am pretty sick of
grants business practices. that and i really think they have grossly over
estimated the demand for this book and if i so desire at some point in the
near future i'll eb able to snag one for below issue price. (similair to
their gift edition desperation, for example)
deathboy
>
> "deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message
> news:z5WdnUA48uW...@comcast.com...
>
> > all well and good and sounds perfectly reasonable, except why does it
> > happen so often? it really seems as though every book grant ever makes
the
> > boxes are late. all i am saying is that in 7 years (my first experience
> with
> > this was desperation) they should have been able to solve the problem.
> order
> > them 12 weeks in advance then if you have to. I honestly get the
> impression
> > that grant just doesnt want to do this and doesnt care if their books
are
> > always late because people will buy them anyway.
>
> I think the problem is that you can't order the slipcases until you have a
> final idea of how big the book is going to be. The slipcases are custom
and
> they have to be snug enough to keep the book from falling out without
being
> so tight it's impossible to get the book out without damaging it.
well obviously. i guess what i dont understand is why this is so hard to
determine. sure it requires some advance planning and thinking, but it
doesnt have to be THAT accurate, i mean this isnt rocket science. what do
they do wait until they have a completed book and measure it with computers
down to an accuracy of .0001 millimeters? hell they might as well make a
custom case for each individual book, i am sure theres some slight variances
in thickness. i still say this could be beat with enough adavnce planning if
one cared enough to do so.
B. Hamill
"deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message news:mfadnRLzFcET-
> if by "regular" one you mean the trade edition i wasnt planning on buying
> that at all and never said I was *though i will have to now most likely)
> fron grant i ordered the artist edition and the SIGNED/LIMITED edition.
the
> reason buying two fold, first to have both in my collection and secondly
to
> read the artist edition, and read it two weeks prior to the trade edition
> (which i would have not bothered buying). removing the 2 week window as
> grant has done makes it less appealing to have it, plus i am pretty sick
of
> grants business practices. that and i really think they have grossly over
> estimated the demand for this book and if i so desire at some point in the
> near future i'll eb able to snag one for below issue price. (similair to
> their gift edition desperation, for example)
>
>
likely have your signed edition from the Burns benefit before you get your
artist edition! Since that's your argument, I have to agree with you.
John
>> I think the problem is that you can't order the slipcases until you have a
>> final idea of how big the book is going to be. The slipcases are custom
>> and they have to be snug enough to keep the book from falling out without
>> being so tight it's impossible to get the book out without damaging it.
>well obviously. i guess what i dont understand is why this is so hard to
>determine. sure it requires some advance planning and thinking, but it
>doesnt have to be THAT accurate, i mean this isnt rocket science. what do
>they do wait until they have a completed book and measure it with computers
>down to an accuracy of .0001 millimeters? hell they might as well make a
>custom case for each individual book, i am sure theres some slight variances
>in thickness. i still say this could be beat with enough adavnce planning if
>one cared enough to do so.
Ahh, but you miss the point. They can calculate all they want to, but that
variation is where the problem lies. If they are off just .1 inch the book
might be so loose they won't stay in the case or it would be so tight it won't
go into the case without damage - and either one would piss people off.
So they wait until they have the first book off the press, bound and covered
the way they want it - the test run - and they order the slipcases then.
Now, why don't they do all this weeks before they plan to ship? Because they
are a small press outfit and money is tight and they can't afford to have the
books lying around for weeks before they charge the credit cards of the people
that are buying them. To do this the would have to charge the card 8, 10
maybe even 12 weeks in advance of shipment instead of the two weeks they
usually do, which would also piss people off.
In short, deathboy, they are screwed no matter what they do unless a miracle
occurs and there are absolutely no delays, errors or problems all along the
line - which does happen occasionally.
Like I said, give them some slack. If you can't handle the delays I'd suggest
you stop purchasing from small press publishers because in the 20+ years I've
been doing it I think I have gotten exactly three S/L books when originally
promised.
John
shipment" policy, you might get their attention. They definitely do have some
control over that aspect of your complaint, though once again it's a matter of
money, employees and time and any one of those would either affect thier
bottom line (and they ARE a business, sot that's important) or it would
increase the cost of their books. Either one of those could easily put them
out of business.
deathboy
first off--- if anyone can tell me how many pages the S/L is going to be I
would bet that based on previous grant books I can guess at the thickness of
the books to within the accuracy you mention.
but at any rate, yes, make a few test copies to determine the thickness. do
they do this? when do they take this step?
>
> Now, why don't they do all this weeks before they plan to ship? Because
they
> are a small press outfit and money is tight and they can't afford to have
the
> books lying around for weeks before they charge the credit cards of the
people
> that are buying them. To do this the would have to charge the card 8, 10
> maybe even 12 weeks in advance of shipment instead of the two weeks they
> usually do, which would also piss people off.
first off, i'm not talking about having ALL the books sitting around months
ahead of time, this probably wouldnt be posisble anyway. but one or two demo
copies with the text not fully proof read and blank pages where the final
illustrations would go? this would allow them to order the slipcases to the
proper size.
secondly, while grant to their credit has never done so, I, and many others,
HAVE in fact been charged that far in advance for books.
>
> In short, deathboy, they are screwed no matter what they do unless a
miracle
> occurs and there are absolutely no delays, errors or problems all along
the
> line - which does happen occasionally.
>
> Like I said, give them some slack. If you can't handle the delays I'd
suggest
> you stop purchasing from small press publishers because in the 20+ years
I've
> been doing it I think I have gotten exactly three S/L books when
originally
> promised.
all the slack they are given by everyone is exactly what allows them to
continue to operate as they do, and they know it. if ever there came a day
when they ended up sitting on 500 books because they pissed enough people
off enough then maybe they'd learn. it ALMOST happened with desperation, but
i guessing the mess they amde out of that wasnt even quite big enough. at
any rate I gave up really caring, my main problem with them now is them
shipping both books at once and charging for shipping twice, as you said in
another post that is totally in their control and quite frankly i think its
ridiculous
Randall Flagg
> that variation is where the problem lies. If they are off just .1
> inch the book might be so loose they won't stay in the case or it
> would be so tight it won't go into the case without damage - and
> either one would piss people off.
>
> So they wait until they have the first book off the press, bound and
> covered the way they want it - the test run - and they order the
> slipcases then.
>
the book size from the manuscript word count and number of illustrations.
They know the typeface, paper, binding, etc., that they're going to use.
Further, if there are always delays from third parties, they should know
this and not plan on a perfect schedule and announce a delivery date they
can't keep because a third party was late. Instead of consistently
announcing a perfect date and being late, they could announce a later, more
realistic, date; then, if some delays don't happen, they could have the book
early.
It's not like they're caught by surprise anymore. Since they know there are
going to be delays, they can plan for them, instead of assuming "that this
time will be different."
> Now, why don't they do all this weeks before they plan to ship?
> Because they are a small press outfit and money is tight and they
> can't afford to have the books lying around for weeks before they
> charge the credit cards of the people that are buying them. To do
> this the would have to charge the card 8, 10 maybe even 12 weeks in
> advance of shipment instead of the two weeks they usually do, which
> would also piss people off.
>
If they were doing just one book per year, yes. But they do more. The
proceeds from one book can finance the operation of the next book, not
unlike other businesses.
> In short, deathboy, they are screwed no matter what they do unless a
> miracle occurs and there are absolutely no delays, errors or problems
> all along the line - which does happen occasionally.
>
Right. Since such miracles are few and far between, they shouldn't announce
a delivery date as if such miracles happen for each book.
> Like I said, give them some slack. If you can't handle the delays I'd
> suggest you stop purchasing from small press publishers because in
> the 20+ years I've been doing it I think I have gotten exactly three
> S/L books when originally promised.
Geez, you'd think somebody in the industry would realize they can't deliver
on time and adjust their dates accordingly. Just because others are bad
doesn't justify it.
RF
"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their knitting."
--Eleanor Roosevelt
deathboy
"Randall Flagg" <rfl...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:bo1epv$15u3is$1...@ID-133142.news.uni-berlin.de...
John
>first off--- if anyone can tell me how many pages the S/L is going to be I
>would bet that based on previous grant books I can guess at the thickness of
>the books to within the accuracy you mention.
Really? Ever think the paper thickness will be different for each type of
paper and each run of that paper? If the book is big enough the variations can
make a pretty good-sized difference. I have three copies of the Lord of the
Rings combined editions. One is less than 1.25 inches think. Another is almost
3 inches think. The third is around 2.5 inches thick. Believe it or not, they
all have the same page count.
>but at any rate, yes, make a few test copies to determine the thickness. do
>they do this? when do they take this step?
To the best of my knowledge, they make the final test copies as close to the
actual production date as they can get. These test copies are made from the
test run of the full production run of the pages, which were approved from the
galley run. The covers, dust jackets, etc are the first runs of the mock up
that is done months in advance. I really think there is a lot more to
publishing a book than you realize...
>first off, i'm not talking about having ALL the books sitting around months
>ahead of time, this probably wouldnt be posisble anyway. but one or two demo
>copies with the text not fully proof read and blank pages where the final
>illustrations would go? this would allow them to order the slipcases to the
>proper size.
Like I said, the final test copies are from the test run of the production run
of the printed pages. Everything prior to that is either a galley run, which
does not use the actual paper, or the mock-ups, which are done to get an idea
of what the final book will look like.
>secondly, while grant to their credit has never done so, I, and many others,
>HAVE in fact been charged that far in advance for books.
Yep, and I hate it as much as everyone else does. Especially when it's 3 or 4
months in advance.
>all the slack they are given by everyone is exactly what allows them to
>continue to operate as they do, and they know it. if ever there came a day
>when they ended up sitting on 500 books because they pissed enough people
>off enough then maybe they'd learn. it ALMOST happened with desperation, but
>i guessing the mess they amde out of that wasnt even quite big enough. at
>any rate I gave up really caring, my main problem with them now is them
>shipping both books at once and charging for shipping twice, as you said in
>another post that is totally in their control and quite frankly i think its
>ridiculous
Desperation was bad. Black House was worse. But that went to the artist. Berry
is notoriously slow. I never could figure out why they picked him with such a
short schedule. I think they did a damned good job on DTV. It was done on time
and they had the book done. Who knows what happened with the box maker.
The shipping I agree with you on completely. While shipping two books
together will be more expensive overall than than shipping them separately, it
won't be as much as the total they are charging - unless what they charged
originally wasn't enough...
John
says...
>Maybe, maybe. With all their experience, they should be able to determine
>the book size from the manuscript word count and number of illustrations.
>They know the typeface, paper, binding, etc., that they're going to use.
I'm not sure how much experience they really have. When Grant himself was
running the operation it seemed to run better.
>Further, if there are always delays from third parties, they should know
>this and not plan on a perfect schedule and announce a delivery date they
>can't keep because a third party was late. Instead of consistently
>announcing a perfect date and being late, they could announce a later, more
>realistic, date; then, if some delays don't happen, they could have the book
>early.
>
>It's not like they're caught by surprise anymore. Since they know there are
>going to be delays, they can plan for them, instead of assuming "that this
>time will be different."
I can't speak for how they come up with the dates. But I doubt they are
plannign for no surprises. They also can't plan for everything being off
kilter. In this instance, the box maker was off. If it was the printer, the
delay would be even worse.
>If they were doing just one book per year, yes. But they do more. The
>proceeds from one book can finance the operation of the next book, not
>unlike other businesses.
Have you checked Grant's book list? Most of the books they print do sit around
for a long period of time. They hope to sell enough of the initial run to pay
for making the books and that will leave the rest for operating expenses and
profit. It's not like there is a fast turnover in this arena.
>Right. Since such miracles are few and far between, they shouldn't announce
>a delivery date as if such miracles happen for each book.
Who would order a limited first edition if there was no delivery date? I think
this is an unreasonable request.
>Geez, you'd think somebody in the industry would realize they can't deliver
>on time and adjust their dates accordingly. Just because others are bad
>doesn't justify it.
And I say they do adjust their dates. Besides, I think this one was
contractual with Scribner and King. No choice. They are doing the best they
can and, like deathboy said, if someone doesn't like it don't buy from them.
John
>Wow, someone else totally in agreement with me. amazing.
Not amazing - understandable. I used to feel the same way but eventually
realized it didn't matter to me all that much - especially when I found out
what most small press people are up against. Besides, like you, I get a reader
copy as well as the small press copies when available.
deathboy
> In article <EI-dnfKoiaG...@comcast.com>, t...@deathboy.com says...
>
> >first off--- if anyone can tell me how many pages the S/L is going to be
I
> >would bet that based on previous grant books I can guess at the thickness
of
> >the books to within the accuracy you mention.
>
> Really? Ever think the paper thickness will be different for each type of
> paper and each run of that paper? If the book is big enough the variations
can
> make a pretty good-sized difference. I have three copies of the Lord of
the
> Rings combined editions. One is less than 1.25 inches think. Another is
almost
> 3 inches think. The third is around 2.5 inches thick. Believe it or not,
they
> all have the same page count.
sure, different paper stock makes a difference in thickness. the solution is
very simple though--- know what paper stock youa re going to use. again, all
just a matter of properly planning ahead.
>
> >but at any rate, yes, make a few test copies to determine the thickness.
do
> >they do this? when do they take this step?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, they make the final test copies as close to
the
> actual production date as they can get. These test copies are made from
the
> test run of the full production run of the pages, which were approved from
the
> galley run. The covers, dust jackets, etc are the first runs of the mock
up
> that is done months in advance. I really think there is a lot more to
> publishing a book than you realize...
then by all means enlighten me. so give me an estimate, how far in adavance
is this mock up made? you say months. 2 months? 3 months? give me your best
guess as to when you think said mock up of wolves of the calla would have
been made. based on this when were the slipcases ordered?
yes, you can blame black house on berry obviously as he was the hold up, but
at the same time, the official word from grant as late as the summer of 2001
basically went "the book will be released in september, artist is not set
yet" oh come on who were they kidding? they waited way too long to settle on
an artist and it cost them. woudl the book been on time if berry had an
extra 3 months ehad start? of course not, but i still lay that much of the
blame on them. and then the ridiculous pretending that the book would still
be on time. my theory about this? if they come right out from the start and
say the limited will be 6 months behind the trade, it will hurt their sales.
this why they dont just readjust their schedule to give themsleves enough to
meet their own release date, whenever that may be. for example, if wolves of
the calla said all along that the signed edition would be late and
furthermore that anyone who roder both signed and artist editions would
receive only one shipment, would they ahve sold as many artist editions?
nope, no way. so basically, if you look at it this way, they lie (or at
least bend or withold the full truth) in order to maximize how much money
they make. i dont care how small they are or what a great sacrifice it is
(which is how every makes it seem) for them to sell 1500 books at $200 a
piece, thats shady as hell.
Jenn Liace
>The shipping I agree with you on completely. While shipping two books
>together will be more expensive overall than than shipping them separately, it
>won't be as much as the total they are charging - unless what they charged
>originally wasn't enough...
Actualy, with most carriers it's the reverse. For example:
FedEx, 2 5 lb packages in FedEx Paks (as opposed to your own boxes)
from zip 60601 (Chicago) to 03106 (New Hampshire, it was the only zip
I could think of offhand that wasn't local to me) , 2 day service is
15.51 per package, or 31.02 total.
1 10 lb package, otherwise identical information is only 22.41.
By shipping the two together, in this example, I save $8.61.
Naturally, I don't know actual weights on the books, and destination
zip codes DO change the rates charged.
Jenn
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.
Groucho Marx
Randall Flagg
>
> Wow, someone else totally in agreement with me. amazing.
I've agreed with that other guy a couple times, too.
RF
"The soil of a man's heart is stonier. A man knits what he can and tends
it."
--Jud Crandall (PET SEMATARY)
Randall Flagg
> In article <bo1epv$15u3is$1...@ID-133142.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> rfl...@hotpop.com says...
>
>> Maybe, maybe. With all their experience, they should be able to
>> determine the book size from the manuscript word count and number of
>> illustrations. They know the typeface, paper, binding, etc., that
>> they're going to use.
>
> I'm not sure how much experience they really have. When Grant himself
> was running the operation it seemed to run better.
>
business itself. It's been around for a long time, with many books
published. Lessons are learned . . .
> I can't speak for how they come up with the dates. But I doubt they
> are plannign for no surprises. They also can't plan for everything
> being off kilter. In this instance, the box maker was off. If it was
> the printer, the delay would be even worse.
>
OK. In this instance, everything went well, EXCEPT the box maker, so they're
late. Which means they did plan on everything going smoothly. If not, then
either there were other delays, not just the shipping boxes, or they knew,
from the beginning, that the schedule was too tight. And if there were other
delays, then we're back at a planning problem again.
>> If they were doing just one book per year, yes. But they do more. The
>> proceeds from one book can finance the operation of the next book,
>> not unlike other businesses.
>
> Have you checked Grant's book list? Most of the books they print do
> sit around for a long period of time. They hope to sell enough of the
> initial run to pay for making the books and that will leave the rest
> for operating expenses and profit. It's not like there is a fast
> turnover in this arena.
>
That's right, you said it--profit. Profits can be re-invested in the
business, be used to improve cash flow, be invested in the next book, etc.
>> Right. Since such miracles are few and far between, they shouldn't
>> announce a delivery date as if such miracles happen for each book.
>
> Who would order a limited first edition if there was no delivery
> date? I think this is an unreasonable request.
>
I wasn't suggesting no delivery date at all. I was suggesting to not
announce a delivery date they know they can't keep. Even a range of dates
would be better, as long as the range is realistic.
>> Geez, you'd think somebody in the industry would realize they can't
>> deliver on time and adjust their dates accordingly. Just because
>> others are bad doesn't justify it.
>
> And I say they do adjust their dates.
Then there's not enough adjustment if it's still common to be late.
> Besides, I think this one was
> contractual with Scribner and King. No choice.
I don't know, but will venture some guesses and speculation here.
Scribner: They want to sell Trade Editions. I don't see the Signed/Limiteds'
being late, early, or on-time affecting the sales of the Trades. The Artist
Edition being late, however, could INCREASE Trade sales--especially for Six
and Seven. People may be accepting a late DTV, but very well get just the
Trade next time (DT VI, VII). With little difference between the two, for
reading, the Trade will do just fine--and it's cheaper. The appeal of the
Artist is it's earlier than the Trade (and, perhaps, for completion for
those who have Grant editions of DT I - IV.)
King: On one hand, I don't see him mandating to Grant to have these out
before or at the same time as the Trade. It's been my impression that SK
likes to help the small presses, and has a relationship with the Grant
business. I can see him giving them the Signed/Limited and letting them sink
or swim on their own re delivery.
On the other hand, King seems to have been heavily promoting THE DARK TOWER
series now, and might not have wanted any bad press.
> They are doing the
> best they can and, like deathboy said, if someone doesn't like it
> don't buy from them.
It's not that simple; there is no other source. We can buy the Trade instead
of the Artist Edition, but the S/L has no equivalent; we're at their mercy.
Personally, I'm not too upset at a Signed/Limited being late because I can
read the Trade edition. I am disappointed in the apparent dishonesty in the
business practices, however. I'm saying "apparent" here because I'm don't
really think that Grant is dishonest or purposely deceiving its Customers.
It's just that if things/delays keep happening, they should be able to
anticipate them, correct some of them, and take them into account. In
another post, you gave an example where the artist chosen for BLACK HOUSE is
notoriously late. Since he's notoriously late, they knew it.
RF
"The worst solitude is to be destitute of knitting."
--Sir Francis Bacon
John
>sure, different paper stock makes a difference in thickness. the solution is
>very simple though--- know what paper stock youa re going to use. again, all
>just a matter of properly planning ahead.
Up to a point I agree. Let's end it there.
>then by all means enlighten me. so give me an estimate, how far in adavance
>is this mock up made? you say months. 2 months? 3 months? give me your best
>guess as to when you think said mock up of wolves of the calla would have
>been made. based on this when were the slipcases ordered?
The mockup can't be used to determine the book thickness as it is only a
design copy done to determing the LOOk of the book . The covers, the slipcase,
height and width, etc. For example, the Desperation mockup for the lettered
edition was designed to see how the book would look in split leather with two
.44 caliber bullets looking like they were sticking through it. If they had
tried to determine final thickness they would have had no idea. For Wolves I
would guess the design mockup was done within 4-6 weeks of them getting the
contract and deciding who was doing which edition. The final test copy - bound
and everything - was probably done about 8 or 9 weeks ago. For all I know
they did order it with plenty of slack time as their experience showed.
This would be the best case. You are assuming the worst case. I Really believe
it was somewhere in between. And they still got screwed by the box maker.
>yes, you can blame black house on berry obviously as he was the hold up, but
>at the same time, the official word from grant as late as the summer of 2001
>basically went "the book will be released in september, artist is not set
>yet" oh come on who were they kidding? they waited way too long to settle on
>an artist and it cost them. woudl the book been on time if berry had an
>extra 3 months ehad start? of course not, but i still lay that much of the
>blame on them. and then the ridiculous pretending that the book would still
>be on time. my theory about this? if they come right out from the start and
>say the limited will be 6 months behind the trade, it will hurt their sales.
>this why they dont just readjust their schedule to give themsleves enough to
>meet their own release date, whenever that may be. for example, if wolves of
>the calla said all along that the signed edition would be late and
>furthermore that anyone who roder both signed and artist editions would
>receive only one shipment, would they ahve sold as many artist editions?
>nope, no way. so basically, if you look at it this way, they lie (or at
>least bend or withold the full truth) in order to maximize how much money
>they make. i dont care how small they are or what a great sacrifice it is
>(which is how every makes it seem) for them to sell 1500 books at $200 a
>piece, thats shady as hell.
Points taken on BH, though I doubt it would have hurt sales any. S/L
always sell, which is why your theories dont' work. They always said the
gift set would come after the trade.
And they should have either picked a faster artist, or not done the book at
all.
On Wolves, you are correct - they could have decided to publicize how they
would ship if both copies were ordered. But they were intending to ship both
the same week. So in effect, it was a moot point - until they had to ship
late.
However, I really don't think they knew the slipcases would cause a delay
until the week they announced it - which was the week before they were
supposed to ship. Bad planning? Maybe. Outright lies, I seriously doubt that.
BTW: I checked the shipping cost on the artist copy - $3.95, or $1.05 less
than what I was charged. That would barely cover the boxes, packing, label
printing and other miscellaneous labor. Figure two books will cost about $7 to
ship together.
John
sewun...@wedontwantspam.com says...
>Actualy, with most carriers it's the reverse. For example:
>FedEx, 2 5 lb packages in FedEx Paks (as opposed to your own boxes)
>from zip 60601 (Chicago) to 03106 (New Hampshire, it was the only zip
>I could think of offhand that wasn't local to me) , 2 day service is
>15.51 per package, or 31.02 total.
>1 10 lb package, otherwise identical information is only 22.41.
>By shipping the two together, in this example, I save $8.61.
>
>Naturally, I don't know actual weights on the books, and destination
>zip codes DO change the rates charged.
>
>Jenn
That's true. But Grant tries to charge enough to cover shipping costs, without
charging too much or too little. Like I said in another post, the shipping
charge for Wolves using the USPS was $3.95. A second book would have raised it
from $2-3 more. Then they have the packaging costs, label printing costs,
labor costs. Insurance costs. That might have eaten up all or more of the
extra $1.05 they charged me for shipping. Without actual numbers I can't say
what their total shipping cost would be for 1 vs 2 books.
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:7DBpb.927$G7.764@okepread04...
>
> The mockup can't be used to determine the book thickness as it is only a
> design copy done to determing the LOOk of the book . The covers, the
slipcase,
> height and width, etc. For example, the Desperation mockup for the
lettered
> edition was designed to see how the book would look in split leather with
two
> .44 caliber bullets looking like they were sticking through it. If they
had
> tried to determine final thickness they would have had no idea. For Wolves
I
> would guess the design mockup was done within 4-6 weeks of them getting
the
> contract and deciding who was doing which edition. The final test copy -
bound
> and everything - was probably done about 8 or 9 weeks ago. For all I know
> they did order it with plenty of slack time as their experience showed.
> This would be the best case. You are assuming the worst case. I Really
believe
> it was somewhere in between. And they still got screwed by the box maker.
>
So in other words, they in fact DO NOT do a mock up of what will really be
released. then i would venture this is something they need to do and that
will allow them to order the slipcases much faster and cut the chance of
them being late down substantially. it may still happen once in awhile, but
right now it ALWAYS happens and the impression si they just accept it and
dont care.
if memory serves all this contract stuff about DTV was announced in i'm
going to say in may. i think thats erroring way on the side of caution and
it was actually earlier. but at any rate, if they could have an actual real
mockup with the exact thickness done in even 8 weeks from may 1st, that
still leaves roughly SIXTEEN weeks for the slipcases to be made if they're
ordered at that point based on an actual realistic mockup of the final book.
now maybe they really do this and the slipcases take longer than that, but
for some reaosn i'm more inclined to think that they ordered slipcases in
august or september, having been given an estimate of say 6 weeks to make
slipcases, which they accepted even though their experience should tell them
not to trust such estimates.
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:pGBpb.935$G7.718@okepread04...
i think you're misisng part of my argument here. the thing is john, they are
charging everyone for shippign TWO books not one, even though they are
shipping once. so that extra $1.05 wouldnt be all that was left to cover
adding the second book, youd have to also add the cost of shipping the
signed limited to it. basically they are saving money by combining the two
shipments but are pocketing that money rather than passing the savings on.
John
rflag...@hotpop.com says...
>I'm not talking experience of each individual, but the experience of the
>business itself. It's been around for a long time, with many books
>published. Lessons are learned . . .
But in this case the people are the business.
>OK. In this instance, everything went well, EXCEPT the box maker, so they're
>late. Which means they did plan on everything going smoothly. If not, then
>either there were other delays, not just the shipping boxes, or they knew,
>from the beginning, that the schedule was too tight. And if there were other
>delays, then we're back at a planning problem again.
How do you know they didn't give the box maker more than enough time and still
got screwed? They may have decided to get things four, five even six weeks
earlier than in the past and the box maker tooks three times longer instead of
twice as long, which caused them to announce another dealy. I make no
assumptions here. How early are they supposed to get everyhing done so there
is no chance of a delay?
>That's right, you said it--profit. Profits can be re-invested in the
>business, be used to improve cash flow, be invested in the next book, etc.
If they are making a profit. I think the King books finance more of their
operation than they would readily admit. The rest of the books don't show a
profit for years.
>I wasn't suggesting no delivery date at all. I was suggesting to not
>announce a delivery date they know they can't keep. Even a range of dates
>would be better, as long as the range is realistic.
I seriously doubt they announce dates they know they cannot keep on a regular
basis. I'll also grant that Black House may be the biggest exception to that.
>Then there's not enough adjustment if it's still common to be late.
Once again, how far in advance are you supposed to go? If you are laying out
$700,000 to do a book where you normally lay out only $50,000, you can't
afford to go too early.
>> Besides, I think this one was
>> contractual with Scribner and King. No choice.
>
>I don't know, but will venture some guesses and speculation here.
>Scribner: They want to sell Trade Editions. I don't see the Signed/Limiteds'
>being late, early, or on-time affecting the sales of the Trades. The Artist
>Edition being late, however, could INCREASE Trade sales--especially for Six
>and Seven. People may be accepting a late DTV, but very well get just the
>Trade next time (DT VI, VII). With little difference between the two, for
>reading, the Trade will do just fine--and it's cheaper. The appeal of the
>Artist is it's earlier than the Trade (and, perhaps, for completion for
>those who have Grant editions of DT I - IV.)
>King: On one hand, I don't see him mandating to Grant to have these out
>before or at the same time as the Trade. It's been my impression that SK
>likes to help the small presses, and has a relationship with the Grant
>business. I can see him giving them the Signed/Limited and letting them sink
>or swim on their own re delivery.
>On the other hand, King seems to have been heavily promoting THE DARK TOWER
>series now, and might not have wanted any bad press.
True for most S/L's. But this is the first I've ever heard of that was a
coordinated effort between the mainstream and small press publishers. Seems to
me Scribner would want to hae it in writing. This whole thing was to be
carefully orchestrated and I think they tried their damndest to get it right.
Then this box thing happened and ... POW! And King will have a contract, more
than likely with dates in it, though Grant will have some say in the dates.
Bet they don't use the same box guy again unless he's the only one around.
>It's not that simple; there is no other source. We can buy the Trade instead
>of the Artist Edition, but the S/L has no equivalent; we're at their mercy.
>Personally, I'm not too upset at a Signed/Limited being late because I can
>read the Trade edition. I am disappointed in the apparent dishonesty in the
>business practices, however. I'm saying "apparent" here because I'm don't
>really think that Grant is dishonest or purposely deceiving its Customers.
>It's just that if things/delays keep happening, they should be able to
>anticipate them, correct some of them, and take them into account. In
>another post, you gave an example where the artist chosen for BLACK HOUSE is
>notoriously late. Since he's notoriously late, they knew it.
I actually bought the Artist edition because I'm a Wrightson fan. I wanted his
sig without the expense of the S/L. It was a great compromise. I'm actually
surprised they didn't sell more just for that reason - signed by Wrightson.
And I'm glad you don't believe this is a purposeful deception. I don't either.
They seem to be trying to correct the problems on the King work and if the
next one is done on time I will believe they have.
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:aWBpb.974$G7.899@okepread04...
>
> How do you know they didn't give the box maker more than enough time and
still
> got screwed? They may have decided to get things four, five even six weeks
> earlier than in the past and the box maker tooks three times longer
instead of
> twice as long, which caused them to announce another dealy. I make no
> assumptions here. How early are they supposed to get everyhing done so
there
> is no chance of a delay?
But you do make an asusmption, you assume that whatever it is was beyond
grant's control and the delay is completely not their fault. that my friend
is an asusmption.
> I seriously doubt they announce dates they know they cannot keep on a
regular
> basis. I'll also grant that Black House may be the biggest exception to
that.
I dont doubt it at all. as youve said, doing otherwise would hurt sales.
John
>So in other words, they in fact DO NOT do a mock up of what will really be
>released. then i would venture this is something they need to do and that
>will allow them to order the slipcases much faster and cut the chance of
>them being late down substantially. it may still happen once in awhile, but
>right now it ALWAYS happens and the impression si they just accept it and
>dont care.
Maybe they can. I've never asked anyone if they can do that or not. I do know
they try to make the slipcases as custom as possible and it's pretty common
for everyone to wait until they can do the "test" book.
>if memory serves all this contract stuff about DTV was announced in i'm
>going to say in may. i think thats erroring way on the side of caution and
>it was actually earlier. but at any rate, if they could have an actual real
>mockup with the exact thickness done in even 8 weeks from may 1st, that
>still leaves roughly SIXTEEN weeks for the slipcases to be made if they're
>ordered at that point based on an actual realistic mockup of the final book.
>now maybe they really do this and the slipcases take longer than that, but
>for some reaosn i'm more inclined to think that they ordered slipcases in
>august or september, having been given an estimate of say 6 weeks to make
>slipcases, which they accepted even though their experience should tell them
>not to trust such estimates.
And what if they ordered in July and the box maker was still late? I have no
idea when they actually ordered the boxes, how long they were told it would
take or if the maker was one, two or even three weeks late. I'm willing to
give them the benefit of the doubt and say they are trying because this one
was almost on time. Maybe the next one will be.
John
Assuming they are actually making money on the shipping, which I'm not sure
they are. And the time and materials to ship two books will be more than a
single book, though I grant that it's not as much as two separate books.
Can anyone post what the actual postage cost was for the Artist edition via
UPS?
John
>But you do make an asusmption, you assume that whatever it is was beyond
>grant's control and the delay is completely not their fault. that my friend
>is an asusmption.
No, I said the delay might not be their fault. Without being there I can't say
one way or the other. I am willing to believe it might not have been their
fault. Inocent until proven guilty. You are assuming they screwed up. Guilty
with no possibility of innocence.
>I dont doubt it at all. as youve said, doing otherwise would hurt sales.
Not on the S/L. They will always sell out on them. And remember, the Artist
edition was on time. Your main gripe is their choice to ship together. And I
agree they should have dropped that idea when they realized the S/L would be
late.
The only thing I do believe completely is that even Grant never thought Berry
would be almost a year late with the art. He's been late before, but never
that long, to my knowledge.
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:D8Dpb.1157$G7.473@okepread04...
well true none of us has any idea. but your last estimate was that they
werent done with a final test print book until 9 weeks ago, which means they
couldnt have ordered the slipcases until about that time or just after.
we're all just making guesses here, but you made your guess and my response
is that if you're guess is correct i think they can do better.
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:XaDpb.1163$G7.665@okepread04...
charges they came up with $5 shipping for the artist edition and $7 shipping
for the signed limited. these prices are based on each book being shipped
seperately. whether they make money, lose money or break even is besides the
point. they are combining shipments of artist and signed limited but still
charging what theyve computed as the seperate shipping rate, so they are
"making" money, even if it really only means that they are loosing less
money.
deathboy
> In article <VdCdnW1bzuE...@comcast.com>, t...@deathboy.com says...
>
> >But you do make an asusmption, you assume that whatever it is was beyond
> >grant's control and the delay is completely not their fault. that my
friend
> >is an asusmption.
>
> No, I said the delay might not be their fault. Without being there I can't
say
> one way or the other. I am willing to believe it might not have been their
> fault. Inocent until proven guilty. You are assuming they screwed up.
Guilty
> with no possibility of innocence.
I'm speculating on ways they can improve their process. if i am assuming
anything it is that they dont care and havent tried. i am basing this on the
fact that i've yet to see any real improvement from them. from this i draw
the conclusiont hat they dont care to do better when it comes to delivering
books on time and they're prefectly happy to be 2 or 3 weeks or months late.
this is what annoys me. they're attitude seems to be that people will buy
the book anyway so we should we bother trying to make sure its on time.
deathboy
and this business about the shipping methods follows suit. they are doing
what is best/easiest/least costly for them. the fact that its unfair to
their customers doesnt even cross their minds. again, the attitude being
they're going to buy the book anyway so what does it matter.
John
>well true none of us has any idea. but your last estimate was that they
>werent done with a final test print book until 9 weeks ago, which means they
>couldnt have ordered the slipcases until about that time or just after.
>we're all just making guesses here, but you made your guess and my response
>is that if you're guess is correct i think they can do better.
And I think they will with DTVI. Of course, only time will tell that.
John
>thats true but allrathher besides the point. however they compute shipping
>charges they came up with $5 shipping for the artist edition and $7 shipping
>for the signed limited. these prices are based on each book being shipped
>seperately. whether they make money, lose money or break even is besides the
>point. they are combining shipments of artist and signed limited but still
>charging what theyve computed as the seperate shipping rate, so they are
>"making" money, even if it really only means that they are loosing less
>money.
Good point. I didn't know they charged $7 for the S/L. Never looked. They
shoudl either refund some cash or ship separately - though that's too late
now.
John
>and this business about the shipping methods follows suit. they are doing
>what is best/easiest/least costly for them. the fact that its unfair to
>their customers doesnt even cross their minds. again, the attitude being
>they're going to buy the book anyway so what does it matter.
Can't say I agree with your conclusions. And I have seen improvement. They had
art, shipping, printing and box problems last S/L. This one seems to have
limtied it to one problem. Maybe next time it will be none?
Only time will tell...
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <lpTob.59444$275.145700@attbi_s53>):
>
> "deathboy" <t...@deathboy.com> wrote in message news:mfadnRLzFcET-
>> if by "regular" one you mean the trade edition i wasnt planning on buying
>> that at all and never said I was *though i will have to now most likely)
>> fron grant i ordered the artist edition and the SIGNED/LIMITED edition.
> the
>> reason buying two fold, first to have both in my collection and secondly
> to
>> read the artist edition, and read it two weeks prior to the trade edition
>> (which i would have not bothered buying). removing the 2 week window as
>> grant has done makes it less appealing to have it, plus i am pretty sick
> of
>> grants business practices. that and i really think they have grossly over
>> estimated the demand for this book and if i so desire at some point in the
>> near future i'll eb able to snag one for below issue price. (similair to
>> their gift edition desperation, for example)
>>
>>
> You defintley have a point on losing the two week window...heck, you'll
> likely have your signed edition from the Burns benefit before you get your
> artist edition! Since that's your argument, I have to agree with you.
>
>
I've been watching this thread with some curiosity and a bit of humor and
feel it is time to add my two (informed) cents worth.
I know the folks at Grant quite well, am very familiar with the processes of
book printing and assemblage, and can give you a little insight into what it
takes to get a book like the Dark Tower V together and out.
First off, let's talk quality. Best binding possible (the Artist Edition is
in direct response to the general trade not having a Smythe sewn binding),
best paper and printing (compare things like the margins - spacious where
others in the samll press biz are cramped - which affect page count; paper
being the most expensive aspect of printing). Grant hires some of the best
artists to illustrate these books. In full color plates no less. These and
the DJ may printed by a wholly different printer from the general text block
to allow for the best quality. Then there are the slipcases. And yes, you
must wait until the book is 99% complete to ensure a proper fit. Often a
shipment slipcases are rejected by a publisher because they won't do the job.
And remember, something like a slipcase isn't a commonplace production item.
It is a specialty item in the printing biz. There are only a few companies
who do them and do them with the quality and materials demanded by an outfit
like Grant.
Second, there's coordinating all these elements. Getting the text and
proofing it. Getting the art and having it photographed, seperated and
proofed. Laying out the book as a whole. Getting a dummy produced to
estimate, estimate only, what will be required by things such as the DJ and
slipcase. Getting the thing printed. Getting X-number of pages signed by 1 to
as many as 3 people (or more in the case of some Grant titles). Getting it
all bound. Getting a slipcase made and having the final product assembled in
its final form (book, DJ around that, slipcase around that, shinkwrap around
it all).
If any one element falters, then the schedule is off. And yes, alot of this
stuff comes into play right down to the last month-month and a half before
release. I know that they got the proof for the cover of Wolves only about a
month or so ago, so that illustrates the speed with which all these elements
cascade (or careen) into place.
Third, these have to be sorted by order and individually packed for shipping.
This is done by hand, not by machine. The Artist Edition alone is 3500
copies. You tell me how long that would take to sort and pack. Plus consider
that there are other titles in the catalog that may need shipping. Plus, in
the case of Wolves, it came right on the heels of Talisman/Black House. 3500
orders to be dealt with there as well.
Fourth in line, the World Fantasy Convention was this past weekend. Unlike us
regular folks, cons are business for small press publishers. It's how they
connect with their customers in more ways than the big publishers care to
worry about. They get feedback, announce new titles and generally do the sort
of promotion that keeps them in business. And they can't control when these
cons are scheduled. And something like the World Fantasy Con cannot be
ignored by a company like Grant.
And Fifth, but not least... there are only two truly full time Grant
employees. They are called the owner and his wife. They pretty much put it
all together. There are others who assist with many duties, and several
(read: 1-2) folk who come in to get the final product packed for shipping
when that time comes. But that's the basic gist of the matter where number of
hands is concerned.
The small press world lives and dies often on a single title. They don't
provide enough business to command the sort of priority that the big guys get
from their suppliers and service providers. And often they go with smaller
operations (subject to similar problems that Grant faces getting their job
done for their customers) for those things because then they CAN command more
power over quality, but sometimes at the expense of time efficiency.
Yes, you may be upset at some of the delays and lack of communication from
operations at small presses like Grant. Often, it is a result of them trying
their best to do exactly what you want them to be doing. They are packing
books for shipping when they might be sending confirmation emails. They are
dealing with getting screw-ups corrected so that a $50-whatever$ product
meets their and your standards, when they might just be shipping the damn
thing out with a too tight or too loose slipcase with glue marks on the cloth
or a cover printed off register or some other flaw.
Does a major take that much care? Nope. That's why Scribner's opted for the
glued "perfect" binding on the mass market trade edition of Wolves. If you
get a copy of the mass market trade delivered with mauled DJ, will Scribner's
replace it? Grant will with their editions. Bright, shiny and new.
Are the small presses like Grant perfect? Nope. If so then they would be
making a lot more money and putting out many more titles with a much bigger
staff. But it's because they do things the way they do that you folks and me
get the great books that we pay the bigger bucks for. Just try getting a
signed, illustrated, slipcased edition from the big guys. Let alone one of
quality.
So, keep in mind the scale of the operation versus the scale of the product
when you are waiting for your purchase to arrive. Believe me, the small press
folks, the good ones, aren't happy about the delays either.
deathboy
"Joseph Niedbala" <scor...@removeme.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.BBCE2701...@news-central.giganews.com...
I'm too tired so all I'm going to say si youve told me nothing I didnt
already know and consequently havent changed my mind one bit. fine, forget
it, lets just offer to make the owner and his wife saints right now for all
their great sacrifices. this is the exact thing that allows them to operate
the way they do without their being any ramifications.
Aaron Sanders
*rofl*
*claps*
That's it: sit back and be a good little American consumer =)
We're going to invade France now, ok? Remain calm. This is not a drill.
-Aaron
John
scor...@removeme.comcast.net says...
Thanks for putting specifics into where I could only add generalities. But, as
you can see, it made no impression. I guess what Grant needs to do is push
everything up by a couple of months and then sit on the books for that time
period. That's about the only way some people will be satisfied.
Of course, if by doing that Grant has to close their doors, we lose the
quality books they have produced for years. But, hey, we get the books on time
for a short while before that happens!
:)
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <jsfqb.6043$G7.2820@okepread04>):
My basic argument was certainly not for beatification of the folks at Grant,
friends though they may be. Simply an endeavor to understand that they and
other small press operators are not intending to rip off or abuse the
customer or make them suffer in wait. These are honest, good people with the
best intention and making their best attempt at getting things done in a
timely manner without compromising the quality of the product. The biggest
way that the major publishers keep on schedule is a willingness to cut
corners combined with the sheer money muscle to order that things get done.
If Grant wanted to cheat the customer in any way then there are far easier
ways to do it. And yes, some unscrupulous small publishers deliver product
that does not meet the described quality and features or fail to deliver at
all. These guys rarely get a follow up title out, however.
And yes, John, to sit on books to guarantee a ship date is not something a
small publisher can afford to do (or the majors for that matter, with the
exception of occassional titles -- but then they also have the big tax
lawyers and accountants to cover the costs with all sorts of smoke and
mirrors...).
deathboy
> In article <0001HW.BBCE2701...@news-central.giganews.com>,
> scor...@removeme.comcast.net says...
>
> Thanks for putting specifics into where I could only add generalities.
But, as
> you can see, it made no impression. I guess what Grant needs to do is push
> everything up by a couple of months and then sit on the books for that
time
> period. That's about the only way some people will be satisfied.
no, they need to push everything up approximately 1 month and then maybe
once in awhile sit on the books for two weeks, but wait, it takes them two
weeks to box the books anyway so they're already sitting on them for that
long! whoa you mean they could actually have all of them boxed by the
release date if they revised their scheduling and then everything happened
to arrive early? well we wouldnt want that now would we.
look everyone who does something of any worth with their life has challenges
they need to meet, so i'm not going to start crying for the poor publisher
who has it so rough.
deathboy
I never said nor meant to imply grant is outright attempting to in any way
cheat customers. I'm accusing them of apathy towards the release schedule
of their books. say whatever you will i'm still of the opinion that they
flat out just dont care if their books are always late. you can argue with
me all you want but if they really cared all that much they'd manage to get
one done on time at least once, just by freak accident. and as anothe
rposter pointed out, all theyd have to do is do exactly what they do now but
back up the release date 2 weeks or so, but they dont even do that (which
leads to all sorts of speculation as to why not). I mean come on, if you're
late to work every morning you leave earlier or take a different means of
transportation in an effort to arrive on time dont you? oh no wait, there
are people in the world (and i know plenty of them) who will continue to
arrive late every morning and always have an excuse as to why its someone
else's fault. people like this work at grant books.
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <aYKdnQCnpvV...@comcast.com>):
No, they don't just sit on them all during that time, waiting for them all to
get packed before finally shipping. THAT, would be foolish and unfair to the
customer. They arrive and they start getting packed immediately, going out as
soon they are packed, based upon first ordered, first shipped.
And no one is asking you to cry in sympathy for the publishers and their
problems. Believe me, they know what the shortcomings of their business are.
My point was to simply clarify the issues that are dealt with by these guys
and to explain that to expect them to function in the same manner as the
majors. I do not know how many of the small imprints you deal with, but I've
been a customer of a number of these guys, Grant, Underwood, NightShade,
Ash-Tree etc, times to numerous to count and have often experienced delays
with a good chunk of them. In some instances, due to various events, I have
had my books delayed as much as 4 months (never that long, I would note, by
Grant - and not because of any aquaintance I have with them - and in full
disclosure, I pay full price for any book I buy from them).
I've read your posts, and you don't strike me as being an unintelligent
person. You're just a guy who wants to get what he ordered in a timely
manner. I respect that. I'm like that too. But I also realize that Grant
knows that you're waiting as well and that there are many others like you out
there. Given the attention to quality product that they are known for,
couldn't one argue that, if it was reasonably within their power to eliminate
any delays, they would? How are the benefiting from doing business in this
way? They're not.
Rather than try to tell you to blithely give them a break, I'm was trying to
give you an idea of how this arm of the publishing business works, some of
the issues that they routinely have to deal with, and to suggest that giving
them a modicum of patience in regard to their efforts and ability to correct
these delays is not unreasonable.
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <5JWdnTZMd9O...@comcast.com>):
Okay, so I would suppose that your experiences are with the King books alone?
Or have you ordered their Crow book? Or the Bradbury? Phil Hale's Goad? The
Burroughs biliography?
The King books are just a fraction of their output over the years. They are a
total of 7 titles, in 15 different editions, counting 2nd printings,
variations on editions, etc., released over the course of 22 years. Out of
about 160 titles overall under the Grant imprint over the years. I personally
do not recall which of these have experienced delays, but I can attest to a
number of Grant titles, non-King, that HAVE come out on schedule. And I was
ordering from these guys long before I knew them at all personally.
Your argument is that you have experienced a delay of some sort with every
dealing you've had with Grant. You also agrue that these delays are wholly
forseeable (perhaps) and wholly unavoidable (defintely not the case). I
definitly get the feeling that there is nothing on this green earth that will
change you mind to this situation.
However, the situation you describe is not one of a person who is late to
work every day with some silly made up excuse. It is far more analogous to
having a mechanic work on your exotic car and having, in every case *that
you've experienced*, the work take longer than expected because a part needed
to be ordered was late in delivery. Yes, it is possible the repairman could
have every part for every car he serviced in stock at all times, but at a
high expense to his ability to stay in business. There are impossibilities,
*inifinite* possibilities, and *reasonable* possibilities.
Yes, there may be an excuse in every instance of delay, but having an excuse
is only a fault when it is not an honest excuse.
deathboy
> >
>
> Okay, so I would suppose that your experiences are with the King books
alone?
> Or have you ordered their Crow book? Or the Bradbury? Phil Hale's Goad?
The
> Burroughs biliography?
>
> The King books are just a fraction of their output over the years. They
are a
> total of 7 titles, in 15 different editions, counting 2nd printings,
> variations on editions, etc., released over the course of 22 years. Out of
> about 160 titles overall under the Grant imprint over the years. I
personally
> do not recall which of these have experienced delays, but I can attest to
a
> number of Grant titles, non-King, that HAVE come out on schedule. And I
was
> ordering from these guys long before I knew them at all personally.
just king books. let me ask you then, why is that king books are always or
at least almost always delayed while they are able to get others out on
time?
>
> Your argument is that you have experienced a delay of some sort with every
> dealing you've had with Grant. You also agrue that these delays are wholly
> forseeable (perhaps) and wholly unavoidable (defintely not the case). I
> definitly get the feeling that there is nothing on this green earth that
will
> change you mind to this situation.
>
> However, the situation you describe is not one of a person who is late to
> work every day with some silly made up excuse. It is far more analogous to
> having a mechanic work on your exotic car and having, in every case *that
> you've experienced*, the work take longer than expected because a part
needed
> to be ordered was late in delivery. Yes, it is possible the repairman
could
> have every part for every car he serviced in stock at all times, but at a
> high expense to his ability to stay in business. There are
impossibilities,
> *inifinite* possibilities, and *reasonable* possibilities.
i like your analogy so lets look at this some. lets say this month you take
your exotic car in and it needs this theoretically new part. your told 2
weeks to fix, but the part takes 3 weeks to get. this also happens the next
3 times you bring your car in. if the mechanic is at all smart, the next
time you bring your car in hes going to realize it will take 3 weeks to get
a part and will tell you 3 weeks not 2. if grant was the mechanic, then what
must be happening is they tell you 3 weeks and suddenly it takes 4. then
they tell you 4 and now it takes 5. they tell you 5 and now it takes 6, they
tell you 6, and now it takes 7. that is one possibility. the other is they
keep telling you 2 weeks even though they know its likely to take longer.
which one seems like the more reasonable possibility?
>
> Yes, there may be an excuse in every instance of delay, but having an
excuse
> is only a fault when it is not an honest excuse.
if they've honestly made an effort to overcome the delay. but if they were
then by now they would have succeeded once or twice.
>
deathboy
>
> No, they don't just sit on them all during that time, waiting for them all
to
> get packed before finally shipping. THAT, would be foolish and unfair to
the
> customer. They arrive and they start getting packed immediately, going out
as
> soon they are packed, based upon first ordered, first shipped.
>
not following you here, not sure what about my last post you're replying
too. obviously grant never just sits on completed books, they dont ever have
them in advance of the release date.
> And no one is asking you to cry in sympathy for the publishers and their
> problems. Believe me, they know what the shortcomings of their business
are.
but by everyone saying "hey they have it rough, so what if they're late"
thats basically what you're doing and its what allows them to go on being
late.
>
> My point was to simply clarify the issues that are dealt with by these
guys
> and to explain that to expect them to function in the same manner as the
> majors. I do not know how many of the small imprints you deal with, but
I've
> been a customer of a number of these guys, Grant, Underwood, NightShade,
> Ash-Tree etc, times to numerous to count and have often experienced delays
> with a good chunk of them. In some instances, due to various events, I
have
> had my books delayed as much as 4 months (never that long, I would note,
by
> Grant - and not because of any aquaintance I have with them - and in full
> disclosure, I pay full price for any book I buy from them).
apparently you didnt order black house.
I know all the things that they have to do, more or less, and I know how
small their operation is. as i've said numerous times, if they cant handle a
project as big as this then theya re free to say no and not do anymore king
books. i would respect that totally. once they agree to do it though i dont
think its unreasonable to ask them to complete the project ina timely
manner once in awhile.
>
> I've read your posts, and you don't strike me as being an unintelligent
> person. You're just a guy who wants to get what he ordered in a timely
> manner. I respect that. I'm like that too. But I also realize that Grant
> knows that you're waiting as well and that there are many others like you
out
> there. Given the attention to quality product that they are known for,
> couldn't one argue that, if it was reasonably within their power to
eliminate
> any delays, they would? How are the benefiting from doing business in this
> way? They're not.
heres how-- its not that they benefit from doing business in this way, its
that they WONT benefit any from making any changes. people will buy the
books no matter how late they are for the most part, so they've become
apathetic to the problem. the only return their extra effort would get them
is the satisfaction of having books come out on time and apaprently thats
not worth it to them.
This will be my last post on this topic as i'm starting to repeat myself.
but ehres one final thought-
grant presumably received DT6 and DT7 earlier than they received DT5 right?
so the time they have to do whatever needs to be done to get these 2 books
out on time is much longer than it was for DT5. I tell you what, i'll give
them a pass on DT6. lets see if they can manage to get DT7 out on time.
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <JbudnZBAT8O...@comcast.com>):
The answer to all your queries is summable in one word: coincidence.
Even though, in your other post, you state that you will not be expamding
further on your argument, I will ask you just how many of the king books you
have (ie: just the deluxes, or all the various configurations of each
title?). If this has happened over, say, 4 titles, that's a more than
reasonable coincidence, especially given the scale of these projects and the
detail involved in each (and I notice that you also stated that some titles
were "almost always delayed" - "almost delayed" means delivered on time, am I
right?).
With regards to your elaboration of my analogy, I ask you once again, what
would possibly make a publisher like Grant *want* to make their schedule
tighter and more subject to delay? Apathy seems to be your answer, but I ask
you what motivation they would have in *not* getting them out on time? Sadism
in making people wait? Or masochism in getting emails from expectant and
irate customers and then hustling into the wee hours of each day once the
books have arrived? The scheduled relase date is based upon certain delivery
promises given them by the various people they source manufacturing and
services out to. You don't ask why those people are late or their products
are not within the necessary quality guidlines.
Joseph Niedbala
(in message <y5mdnTxf4KF...@comcast.com>):
>
> "Joseph Niedbala" <scor...@removeme.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:0001HW.BBCF508F...@news-central.giganews.com...
>> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 0:31:06 -0500, deathboy wrote
>> (in message <aYKdnQCnpvV...@comcast.com>):
>>
>
>>
>> No, they don't just sit on them all during that time, waiting for them all
> to
>> get packed before finally shipping. THAT, would be foolish and unfair to
> the
>> customer. They arrive and they start getting packed immediately, going out
> as
>> soon they are packed, based upon first ordered, first shipped.
>>
> not following you here, not sure what about my last post you're replying
> too. obviously grant never just sits on completed books, they dont ever have
> them in advance of the release date.
>
To quote, "but wait, it takes them two weeks to box the books anyway so
they're already sitting on them for that long!"
>> And no one is asking you to cry in sympathy for the publishers and their
>> problems. Believe me, they know what the shortcomings of their business
> are.
>
> but by everyone saying "hey they have it rough, so what if they're late"
> thats basically what you're doing and its what allows them to go on being
> late.
>
>>
>> My point was to simply clarify the issues that are dealt with by these
> guys
>> and to explain that to expect them to function in the same manner as the
>> majors. I do not know how many of the small imprints you deal with, but
> I've
>> been a customer of a number of these guys, Grant, Underwood, NightShade,
>> Ash-Tree etc, times to numerous to count and have often experienced delays
>> with a good chunk of them. In some instances, due to various events, I
> have
>> had my books delayed as much as 4 months (never that long, I would note,
> by
>> Grant - and not because of any aquaintance I have with them - and in full
>> disclosure, I pay full price for any book I buy from them).
>
> apparently you didnt order black house.
No, I didn't, so please enlighten me to what happened with that title.
To imply that any small company does not benefit from keeping projects and
products on schedule is the first genuinely foolhardy statement that I've
seen from you.
This is my last post concerning this matter. I came on this group as a book
collector, not specifically a King collector (though I enjoy the man's work
and own quite a few of his titles, Grant and otherwise), curious to see what
reponse there might be to the DT5 artist edition being released in advance of
the other editions. When I read your posts, I decided to respond as someone
who had had numerous experiences of the nature that you describe, with
various small imprints.
My posts have been intended less as a wholesale defense of Grant and more as
a defense of the pros and cons of dealing with small publishers in general.
Ultimately, a customer must weigh those pros and cons and you certainly have
every right to tip the scales with your opinion of a businesse's full level
of customer service, as well as your wallet.
Aaron Sanders
And, it would seem, accept them as having a minimal impact on their
level of customer service.
> My point was to simply clarify the issues that are dealt with by these guys
> and to explain that to expect them to function in the same manner as the
> majors. I do not know how many of the small imprints you deal with, but I've
> been a customer of a number of these guys, Grant, Underwood, NightShade,
> Ash-Tree etc, times to numerous to count and have often experienced delays
> with a good chunk of them. In some instances, due to various events, I have
> had my books delayed as much as 4 months (never that long, I would note, by
> Grant - and not because of any aquaintance I have with them - and in full
> disclosure, I pay full price for any book I buy from them).
>
See, the point is: when you order something early, and you're supposed
to get it early, the company needs to *deliver* or make up for it. It
sounds like, on several King books, Grant has not. I know about
inventory costs, etc, but sometimes you have to raise your costs to
improve customer service. It's all a matter of whether Grant thinks it
needs to do so or not. I would say they don't wish to improve customer
service, and for deathboy (considered by himself as a customer), this
is a mistake. Is it a mistake when Grant considers their *entire*
customer base? Who knows? I would say yes, though, because again, when
you order the book early which is to arrive early, you damn well
expect it to.
> I've read your posts, and you don't strike me as being an unintelligent
> person. You're just a guy who wants to get what he ordered in a timely
> manner. I respect that. I'm like that too. But I also realize that Grant
> knows that you're waiting as well and that there are many others like you out
> there. Given the attention to quality product that they are known for,
> couldn't one argue that, if it was reasonably within their power to eliminate
> any delays, they would? How are the benefiting from doing business in this
> way? They're not.
>
Yes they are. They are cutting their inventory and logistics costs, at
the expense of the customer. Don't say they're not "benefitting" from
it. They wouldn't allow it to happen if it weren't in their favor (as
they see it)
> Rather than try to tell you to blithely give them a break, I'm was trying to
> give you an idea of how this arm of the publishing business works, some of
> the issues that they routinely have to deal with, and to suggest that giving
> them a modicum of patience in regard to their efforts and ability to correct
> these delays is not unreasonable.
It is when the book is specifically designed to arrive early. If it
were a bedroom set, or a used DVD from half.com, the situation would
be different. In this case, patience is not what the customer wants,
and the customer is always right. A company needs to design it's
supply chain to keep the customer happy, after all. This is how you
succeed, and with King books, they haven't fixed the problem.
-Aaron
deathboy
> products on schedule is the first genuinely foolhardy statement that I've
> seen from you.
>
if they're going to sell all 1200 copies whether the book is late, on time,
or early, what would it benefit them to go out of their way to make sure it
arrives on time? if ever the day comes when their being late costs them the
sale of 500 books you'd see a change in their procedure pretty damn fast.
ok now i really am done, its been fun.
deathboy
> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 7:33:47 -0500, deathboy wrote
> (in message <y5mdnTxf4KF...@comcast.com>):
>
> >
> > "Joseph Niedbala" <scor...@removeme.comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:0001HW.BBCF508F...@news-central.giganews.com...
> >> On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 0:31:06 -0500, deathboy wrote
> >> (in message <aYKdnQCnpvV...@comcast.com>):
> >>
> >
> >>
> >> No, they don't just sit on them all during that time, waiting for them
all
> > to
> >> get packed before finally shipping. THAT, would be foolish and unfair
to
> > the
> >> customer. They arrive and they start getting packed immediately, going
out
> > as
> >> soon they are packed, based upon first ordered, first shipped.
> >>
> > not following you here, not sure what about my last post you're replying
> > too. obviously grant never just sits on completed books, they dont ever
have
> > them in advance of the release date.
> >
>
> To quote, "but wait, it takes them two weeks to box the books anyway so
> they're already sitting on them for that long!"
>
My point was if they had to "sit" on the books for two weeks before the
release date then that would allow them time to package them all prior to
release and would only make the whole process better, where as you seem to
be saying that having the books in their hands early and having to sit on
them would be some great catastrophe.
John
>My point was if they had to "sit" on the books for two weeks before the
>release date then that would allow them time to package them all prior to
>release and would only make the whole process better, where as you seem to
>be saying that having the books in their hands early and having to sit on
>them would be some great catastrophe.
Not a Great catastrophe, but a significant one - especially for a large
project like a King book which is about 3-5 times larger than most of their
other projects. Since they are so small they have to pay their bills in a
timely manner and once the work is done that is typically 15-45 days. They
might be able to slide once or twice, but a vendor won't let them slide
forever.
The publisher commits to a specific release date as a contractual matter and
when the date is set they cannot, by contract, release them earlier than the
date in question. If they do what you are asking and build in a week or two
for every possible delay and there are NO delays they will sit on the books
for several weeks and maybe months before they can ship and that puts them in
a cash bind - if they don't charge until they ship, they have to have the cash
on hand to pay the bills.
I doubt many small press publishers have that kind of money laying around for
reasons I have previously stated. So they either have to charge in advance or
pay the bills late. If they pay late too often they risk getting cut off by
their supliers. If they charge too early they risk losing customers. Also,
unless they run on a strictly cash basis, once they do charge the money won't
be available to them for 7-14 days depending on whether it is check or credit
card. Once again, a no win situation and any of it could easily run them out
of business.
This is not a unique situation to the small press, but a problem ALL small
businesses face - balancing their cash reserves, billing and vendor payments
while staying in business and taking home some money to pay their personal
bills. It takes a heavy toll on small business with about 80-90% failure rate
within the first year.
And you are correct - if they can't juggle things sufficiently they will go
out of business. Believe me, they do at an alarming rate - especially now that
the large chain bookstores don't carry books from small press publishers
unless they are a from someone like King. This used to be different when there
were small bookstores that were willing to carry one to five copies of a small
press release.
I have been involved in two small businesses in my lifetime (so far) and have
several friends that are currently in small businesses - some for several
years, others quite new. Until you have faced the problems any small business
faces and understand just how tight money really is you really aren't
qualified to make suggestions on how to run that business.
Sorry to be so blunt, but that's the way things are. It isn't as black and
white as you try to paint it, but many shades of grey.
John
scor...@removeme.comcast.net says...
>> apparently you didnt order black house.
>
>
>No, I didn't, so please enlighten me to what happened with that title.
The S/L was supposed to be out early Aug 2002 with the two book Talisman/Black
House set released about a month later. They stuck close to that release
date, moving it to early Sept 2002, then late Sept and finally admitted they
didn't know when it would be released after the 3rd delay. Berry took forever
to finish the artwork. It was finally shipped in Jul or Aug this year.
This was a verifiable fiasco that Grant never should have let happen. They
commited to a very short release on the S/L and blew it completely -
especially when they hired Berry to do the art.
Randall Flagg
> small businesses face - balancing their cash reserves, billing and
> vendor payments while staying in business and taking home some money
> to pay their personal bills. It takes a heavy toll on small business
> with about 80-90% failure rate within the first year.
>
> And you are correct - if they can't juggle things sufficiently they
> will go out of business. Believe me, they do at an alarming rate -
> especially now that the large chain bookstores don't carry books from
> small press publishers unless they are a from someone like King. This
> used to be different when there were small bookstores that were
> willing to carry one to five copies of a small press release.
>
> I have been involved in two small businesses in my lifetime (so far)
> and have several friends that are currently in small businesses -
> some for several years, others quite new. Until you have faced the
> problems any small business faces and understand just how tight money
> really is you really aren't qualified to make suggestions on how to
> run that business.
>
it's owning a small business. Perhaps the failure rate is high, but once one
is successful, the money isn't all that tight or there wouldn't be so many
self-made, small-business millionaires out there.
I have to diagree with your comment about someone not being qualified to
make suggestions on how to run a business without having done so. A person
certainly can make suggestions; not all of them will be fruitful, but not
all will be wrong, either. (Even if they are wrong, so what? We shouldn't
discourage people from thinking, or trying.) Oftentimes, the objectivity of
someone who hasn't experienced something helps with that something; both
sides can learn from the discussions. Also, if a person who hasn't run a
business can't make suggestions about running a business, then that someone
certainly can't run a business, either, which means that NOONE can run a
business (kind of a chicken-and-the-egg thing).
Were your businesses small presses? If not, using your logic, you don't
qualify to have said all the things you've said about small presses in this
thread. Yet much of what you said does make sense, which just goes to show
that you don't have to be doing something to talk about it.
RF
"Men perfected by society is the best of all animals; he is the most
terrible of all when he lives without knitting."
--Aristotle
deathboy
> In article <2qqdneihyY0...@comcast.com>, t...@deathboy.com says...
>
> >My point was if they had to "sit" on the books for two weeks before the
> >release date then that would allow them time to package them all prior to
> >release and would only make the whole process better, where as you seem
to
> >be saying that having the books in their hands early and having to sit on
> >them would be some great catastrophe.
>
> Not a Great catastrophe, but a significant one - especially for a large
> project like a King book which is about 3-5 times larger than most of
their
> other projects. Since they are so small they have to pay their bills in a
> timely manner and once the work is done that is typically 15-45 days. They
> might be able to slide once or twice, but a vendor won't let them slide
> forever.
let me run this by you-- when the slipcases are 2 weeks late but the books
themselves are on time, arent they sitting on the books while they wait for
the slipcases??????????????????????????????????????????
John
says...
>The key to becoming a millionaire in America isn't going to a job everyday,
>it's owning a small business. Perhaps the failure rate is high, but once one
>is successful, the money isn't all that tight or there wouldn't be so many
>self-made, small-business millionaires out there.
A lot of it is luck as well. Something I have been notoriously short on.
>I have to disagree with your comment about someone not being qualified to
>make suggestions on how to run a business without having done so. A person
>certainly can make suggestions; not all of them will be fruitful, but not
>all will be wrong, either. (Even if they are wrong, so what? We shouldn't
>discourage people from thinking, or trying.) Oftentimes, the objectivity of
>someone who hasn't experienced something helps with that something; both
>sides can learn from the discussions. Also, if a person who hasn't run a
>business can't make suggestions about running a business, then that someone
>certainly can't run a business, either, which means that NOONE can run a
>business (kind of a chicken-and-the-egg thing).
It's your right to disagree, and after re-reading the statement, I have
to admit you are right in your disagreement. People can make the suggestions.
but my statement also opined they aren't qualified. A person can make
suggestions on how to wire electronics, how to ride a horse, how to drive a
car. But until they actually do or are trained to do those things, they
lack qualification. Subtle point, but it's there. Hwever, in retrospect I
should have worded that line "You aren't qualified to tell..." (as in
instruct,) "...someone how to run their business..."
>Were your businesses small presses? If not, using your logic, you don't
>qualify to have said all the things you've said about small presses in this
>thread. Yet much of what you said does make sense, which just goes to show
>that you don't have to be doing something to talk about it.
No, I was not a small press publisher. However, I know people in the business
and have studied it and read books to understand how it works. The comments I
have made about the problems faced by small press publishers is from knowledge
I have gained from dealing with, working with and associating with small press
publishers. Many of them lasted a very short time, not even making the first
year. Some of them were involved in comic books. However, I would not deem to
tell them how to actually run the publishing end of the business as I have no
experience doing so. And I don't believe I made any suggestions on how to
actually run a business of that type. I made comments that were meant to
show the problems with the suggested solutions. I wish I did know how to solve
the real problems - I could start a consulting business for small press
publishers to explain the solution to late work from vendors.
On the other hand, the comments I made about running a small business are
about problems that are not unique to small press, but are similar to all
small businesses. They involved inventory management which is directly related
to money management. Doesn't matter whether you are in the grocery business,
manufacturing or printing books. You still have to manage both those items to
succeed. And like I said, luck is not an unwelcome ally in that struggle.
John
>let me run this by you-- when the slipcases are 2 weeks late but the books
>themselves are on time, arent they sitting on the books while they wait for
>the slipcases??????????????????????????????????????????
Yes they are. But not willingly. And it probably impacts their cash flow and
inventory management. What you are suggesting is they purposely do it. That
could easily be financial suicide. Two totally different propsitions.
Believe me, I seriously doubt it is a position they want to placed in -
accidentally or on purpose.
deathboy
it seems they are unwillingly doing this quite often. and i still maintain
that since it takes them time to package all the books for mailing that 2
weeks of "sitting" on the books is irrelevant. if the 2 weeks they spend
packing them is immediately before the release date instead of immediately
after theyd actually end up holding the books for the same period of time.
and then theres things like the artist edition and the gift edition of
talisman/black house and the DT gift set from a few years back and the gift
edition of desperation... these things NEVER sell out, so basically they've
sat on them for years. has this put them out of business though?
John
>it seems they are unwillingly doing this quite often. and i still maintain
>that since it takes them time to package all the books for mailing that 2
>weeks of "sitting" on the books is irrelevant. if the 2 weeks they spend
>packing them is immediately before the release date instead of immediately
>after theyd actually end up holding the books for the same period of time.
It is very relevant. You are now asking them to hold the books for 4 weeks.
And for two of those weeks they won't have charged any credit cards or
deposited the checks. They are just sitting on the inventory without any
benefit other than the good will they might generate. If it was just an
additional two weeks that might not be a bad trade off. But to compensate for
every possible delay two weeks would nt be enough.
The current problem points that out. They had a two week delay this time due
to the slipcases and shipping issues. However, if they compensated for every
possible problem - which is the only way they could guarantee solving the late
ship problem - they would have to add weeks for printing, paper delivery,
artwork delays, etc. Once again, this could possibly result in getting the
books 4, 6 even 8 weeks early if the possible delays dont occur. So then they
have to make a more realisitc adjustment to reach that two week window. How do
we know they didn't do that very thing and it wasn't enough? The end result of
their adjustements may have been this one or two week delay as opposed to a
one month or more delay. The slipcases may have been the last thing to go
wreong, not the only thing. There would be no reason to explain other
delays if they did not affect the ship date and without all the information we
cannot make an informed judgement.
>and then theres things like the artist edition and the gift edition of
>talisman/black house and the DT gift set from a few years back and the gift
>edition of desperation... these things NEVER sell out, so basically they've
>sat on them for years. has this put them out of business though?
I do not know what effect that has had on their business. I could guess that
the Talisman/Black House problem has not had too much of an affect as the work
done on the books was probably minimal until the artwork was ready.It would
have been foolish to do otherwise once they knew it was going to be months
late.
For the books they have in inventory it is a different matter. They make up
the back stock. If you remember, I mentioned in a previous post they publish
books and hope to sell enough up front to pay the publication costs and then
sales of the remaining books are used for operating expenses, profit and seed
money for new books to be published. '
While they have a lot of the DT gift sets and Desperation gift editions
sitting around they have already sold quite a few. Books stores did carry the
DT books (I saw them at Waldenbooks) and internet book stores have copies of
both (several I do business with have them). I can only guess they presold
enough of them and shortly after the final publication to pay the production
costs. If they didn't, they may have received a financial hit, but not large
enough to cause them to fold. If they had to delay payment on accounts for
months at a time, every single time they produced a book their vendors would
eventually put them on a cash only basis which would put them out of business
without very deep pockets.
Once again, it is an issue all small businesses face - balancing income and
outgo while still making enough money to pay the salaries and give the owner a
small profit.
The King S/L's are the exception. They sell out quickly, generate a lot of
income and hopefully give the company some ready cash to help them stay in
business when the other books don't sell as they hoped they would. In other
words they are the cash cow.
John
out on time and you act as if you will not tolerate any delay. While I can
understand your request and why you have become intolerant, I can also
understand how it is impossible from a business standpoint for a small press
publisher to meet that request every time.
In fact, it may be becoming impossible to meet it most of the time. I have
noticed more and more small press publications being delayed. While more often
than not it doesn't matter if the book is delayed a few weeks or a few months
as that is the only publication of the book, many of the big books (like
DTV) are running into issues. Cemetery Dance has not shipped Legacies yet and
it was due in April of this year. Prior to folding a few years ago Scream
Press was late with every single book they published. And there are delays
cropping up everywhere in the small press industry. This leads me to believe
the problem is not a lack of concern or apathy with the people doing the work,
but a problem with small press publishing in general.
Should they change their business model to compensate? Possibly they can,
maybe they can't compensate for every issue. I canno speak on that as I do not
have all of the facts or the experience to make a judgement. Still, it is not
unique to Grant and I personally expect it to get worse before it gets better.
I just hope these guys can survive this period and get back on track. I'd hate
to lose these lovely editions and great examples of the publisher's art.
Randall Flagg
>
> It's your right to disagree, and after re-reading the statement, I
> have
> to admit you are right in your disagreement. People can make the
> suggestions. but my statement also opined they aren't qualified. A
> person can make suggestions on how to wire electronics, how to ride a
> horse, how to drive a car. But until they actually do or are trained
> to do those things, they
> lack qualification. Subtle point, but it's there.
If a business, such as Donald M. Grant, Publisher, is consistenly delivering
books late, then I maintain that something can be done to improve. I'm not
in the business, so I'll agree that I'm not qualified to suggest what to do
to improve. For them to improve, it's up to Grant personnel to determine
what can be done. The impression I get from your posts is that it's
impossible to foresee and overcome all problems. Taken literally, that's
true. The problem is that we often use that as a crutch and don't even try
to improve. There is always room for improvement; Grant most-likely feel
that they have higher-priority things to deal with. And since all King
Signed/Limiteds sell out anyway, regardless of how late they've been
delivered in the past, they probably feel that it isn't a high priority to
get King S/Ls out on time; the income is secure and they could put their
resources to the non-King books, to get those out on time, to secure the
income from those.
>
> No, I was not a small press publisher. However, I know people in the
> business and have studied it and read books to understand how it
> works. The comments I have made about the problems faced by small
> press publishers is from knowledge I have gained from dealing with,
> working with and associating with small press publishers. Many of
> them lasted a very short time, not even making the first year. Some
> of them were involved in comic books. However, I would not deem to
> tell them how to actually run the publishing end of the business as I
> have no experience doing so. And I don't believe I made any
> suggestions on how to actually run a business of that type. I made
> comments that were meant to
> show the problems with the suggested solutions. I wish I did know how
> to solve the real problems - I could start a consulting business for
> small press publishers to explain the solution to late work from
> vendors.
>
> On the other hand, the comments I made about running a small business
> are about problems that are not unique to small press, but are
> similar to all small businesses. They involved inventory management
> which is directly related to money management. Doesn't matter whether
> you are in the grocery business, manufacturing or printing books. You
> still have to manage both those items to succeed. And like I said,
> luck is not an unwelcome ally in that struggle.
Given what you just said there, I think you'd be a valuable resource to me
if I was starting a business even though you may not be "qualified" in the
particular business I would be starting. (I'm not starting one, so I won't
be buggin' you with e-mails to help.)
RF
"I am a man, and whatever concerns knitting is of interest to me."
--Terence
deathboy
"John" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:TN7rb.9994$G7.400@okepread04...
Al i am saying is, if sitting on 2000 copies of the desperation gift edition
for the last 7 years has not put them out of business, i dont see how
holding 1200 copies for even a month or two of a book they know is going to
sell out can be all that of a bad thing. but i'm not even talking about that
long. i still dont think you get what i am saying. it goes like this-
lets say grant has the books ready on a ship date, lets say oct 1st. it then
takes them 2 weeks to box and ship them all, so its now 2 weeks past the
release date when this is completed. so theyce held the books for 2 weeks.
if the slipcases cause an additonal 2 week delay theyve held the books for 4
weeks if they had the books 2 weeks before release date, they could start
boxing them all (but not ship them) and then when the release date came
around ship them all at once on the release date and be done with it. even
if they get the books 4 weeks early, they would still have the books in
their possession for the same amount of time as they do when they receive
the slipcases 2 weeks late. its 4 weeks of the books sitting in their
wharehosue or office or whatever they have either way. its just a matter of
when those 4 weeks happen.
deathboy
> BTW. All of this boils down to one thing - you asked why they can't get
them
> out on time and you act as if you will not tolerate any delay. While I can
> understand your request and why you have become intolerant, I can also
> understand how it is impossible from a business standpoint for a small
press
> publisher to meet that request every time.
this isnt a matter of everytime, its a matter of it never working out.
>
> In fact, it may be becoming impossible to meet it most of the time. I have
> noticed more and more small press publications being delayed. While more
often
> than not it doesn't matter if the book is delayed a few weeks or a few
months
> as that is the only publication of the book, many of the big books (like
> DTV) are running into issues. Cemetery Dance has not shipped Legacies yet
and
> it was due in April of this year.
legacies was originally due in like 1999 or 2000 actually wasnt it? and i
beleive they HAVE in fact charged everyone, years ago at that. and i never
said the problem wa slimited to just grant. CD botched from a buick 8 pretty
badly last year too.
John
rflag...@hotpop.com says...
>If a business, such as Donald M. Grant, Publisher, is consistenly delivering
>books late, then I maintain that something can be done to improve. I'm not
>in the business, so I'll agree that I'm not qualified to suggest what to do
>to improve. For them to improve, it's up to Grant personnel to determine
>what can be done. The impression I get from your posts is that it's
>impossible to foresee and overcome all problems. Taken literally, that's
>true. The problem is that we often use that as a crutch and don't even try
>to improve. There is always room for improvement; Grant most-likely feel
>that they have higher-priority things to deal with. And since all King
>Signed/Limiteds sell out anyway, regardless of how late they've been
>delivered in the past, they probably feel that it isn't a high priority to
>get King S/Ls out on time; the income is secure and they could put their
>resources to the non-King books, to get those out on time, to secure the
>income from those.
Point taken and possibly what we may be seeing in this particular case.
However, I do believe they thought they had this one (DTV) nailed and were
blindsided at the last second. After all, they had everything ready to go
except the slipcases. Did they know about the problem earlier than it was
revealed to us? Possibly. But the truth is we'll never know the entire story.
Even if they make a definitive statement we still just have their word as to
what actually happened and it would be up to us to decide whether to believe
it or not.
>> On the other hand, the comments I made about running a small business
>> are about problems that are not unique to small press, but are
>> similar to all small businesses. They involved inventory management
>> which is directly related to money management. Doesn't matter whether
>> you are in the grocery business, manufacturing or printing books. You
>> still have to manage both those items to succeed. And like I said,
>> luck is not an unwelcome ally in that struggle.
>
>Given what you just said there, I think you'd be a valuable resource to me
>if I was starting a business even though you may not be "qualified" in the
>particular business I would be starting. (I'm not starting one, so I won't
>be buggin' you with e-mails to help.)
Thank you for the compliment. However, I will be the first to admit that as a
"two time loser" I'm not sure I would be the best resource.
:)
John
>legacies was originally due in like 1999 or 2000 actually wasnt it? and i
>beleive they HAVE in fact charged everyone, years ago at that. and i never
>said the problem wa slimited to just grant. CD botched from a buick 8 pretty
>badly last year too.
I'm not sure as I never ordered it and the publication date they have posted
on their website is April 2003. I did order From A buick 8, but cannot
remember when that was released.
John
>Al i am saying is, if sitting on 2000 copies of the desperation gift edition
>for the last 7 years has not put them out of business, i dont see how
>holding 1200 copies for even a month or two of a book they know is going to
>sell out can be all that of a bad thing. but i'm not even talking about that
>long. i still dont think you get what i am saying. it goes like this-
I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is the copies they
sold pre-publication and to dealers from of the original press run paid all
the bills on the Desperation gift set, so those books aren't really costing
them anything other than storage space, which granted is not cheap.
>lets say grant has the books ready on a ship date, lets say oct 1st. it then
>takes them 2 weeks to box and ship them all, so its now 2 weeks past the
>release date when this is completed. so theyce held the books for 2 weeks.
>if the slipcases cause an additonal 2 week delay theyve held the books for 4
>weeks if they had the books 2 weeks before release date, they could start
>boxing them all (but not ship them) and then when the release date came
>around ship them all at once on the release date and be done with it. even
>if they get the books 4 weeks early, they would still have the books in
>their possession for the same amount of time as they do when they receive
>the slipcases 2 weeks late. its 4 weeks of the books sitting in their
>wharehosue or office or whatever they have either way. its just a matter of
>when those 4 weeks happen.
Except they don't wait to ship. They usually start packing as soon as the
books are ready to go. And they start shipping on the release date or as soon
as they are boxed, addressed and ready if it is past the ship date. They are
not "sitting on them" but are actually in the process of preparing for and/or
shipping them. Using your idea they would just be sitting on them for two
weeks as once boxed they would just have to hold them until the ship date.
And it would still take time for them to get them all shipped. Do you have any
idea what a job it is to just ship 1300 copies of anything when there are only
two or three people doing the work? They have to check every single order,
make sure they have the correct address and then ship it using the correct
carrier. Remember, they don't all ship the same way. International ships
differently from domestic to a street address which ships differently from
domestic to a P.O. Box. It is a massive effort. And I seriously doubt anyone
could accomplish it in one day. It's a lot of work just to get them out as
fast as they do.
I doubt we are going to change any minds with this discussion, so let's just
say I agree with you that they should have shipped all of the artist copies
whether the buyer had ordered a S/L or not. That would have satisfied you, and
probably a lot of other people, to a large extent.
deathboy
> In article <SIWdnXCtu_x...@comcast.com>, t...@deathboy.com says...
>
> >Al i am saying is, if sitting on 2000 copies of the desperation gift
edition
> >for the last 7 years has not put them out of business, i dont see how
> >holding 1200 copies for even a month or two of a book they know is going
to
> >sell out can be all that of a bad thing. but i'm not even talking about
that
> >long. i still dont think you get what i am saying. it goes like this-
>
> I understand what you are saying. What I am saying is the copies they
> sold pre-publication and to dealers from of the original press run paid
all
> the bills on the Desperation gift set, so those books aren't really
costing
> them anything other than storage space, which granted is not cheap.
>
heres a solution-- reinstate the practice of taking deposits. pay for half
of the book up front. if that meant getting the book on time i'd gladly do
it.
Once they are all boxed, numbers checked, sorted by carrier etc (which
could be done during this theoretical 2 week window pre release date) its
all just a matter of calling the carriers to come pick them up. do we really
think grant drives books down to the post office in the family station
wagon? by their own accounting they shipped over 1000 copies of the trade
edition in one day last week. i'm not saying every they need to do can be
accomplished in one day. i'm in fact saying they should figure the time to
do the whole process slowly and carefully BEFORE the release date. if the
day the release date comes all the sorting and verifying and packing ahs
alreayd been done there quite frankly is NO reason why 1300 copies couldnt
all be picked up by the appropriate carriers in one day.
Randall Flagg
> In article <boj1cs$1epu5j$2...@ID-133142.news.uni-berlin.de>,
> rflag...@hotpop.com says...
>
> case. However, I do believe they thought they had this one (DTV)
> nailed and were blindsided at the last second. After all, they had
> everything ready to go except the slipcases. Did they know about the
> problem earlier than it was revealed to us? Possibly. But the truth
> is we'll never know the entire story. Even if they make a definitive
> statement we still just have their word as to what actually happened
> and it would be up to us to decide whether to believe it or not.
>
without explanation.
If I was independently wealthy, it might be interesting to be a volunteer,
working with/for them for a year or two.
RF
"To knit or not to knit: that is the question."
--Hamlet
John
rflag...@hotpop.com says...
>At least they are telling us something, and not simply making us wait,
>without explanation.
And that is what they do - though not in as timely a manner as some would
like. Still, I have always taken them at their word and believe they explain
and reveal delays as soon as they know about them, or at least as soon as
practical...
>If I was independently wealthy, it might be interesting to be a volunteer,
>working with/for them for a year or two.
I'd just like to be independently wealthy! :)
Though I agree - it would be interesting to work with them for a couple of
years to see exactly what they do and how they do it. Especially the upcoming
two years with DT VI and VII being readied.
John
>heres a solution-- reinstate the practice of taking deposits. pay for half
>of the book up front. if that meant getting the book on time i'd gladly do
it.
This could work - depending on how many people share your sentiments. I would
be all for it to guarantee the book arrives on time.