HELP!!! Does Father Callahan die?????
wolly
Just read 'salems Lot.....it's GREAT!!!
One problem.....in the book there is a priest called Father Callahan.....I
wonder if he dies or just kicked out of church. (He sucked the blood of Barlow
voluntary....remember?)
Let me know what you freaks think.....
Jan
Michael Richmann
You'll go far insulting those from which you desire an opinion.
That said, what part of the book didn't you understand? King laid
it all out in gory detail as to what happened to Callahan and what
he did after his "defilement".
--
Mike
My opinions, not Argonne's...
jaw...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
> Hi Folks,
> Just read 'salems Lot.....it's GREAT!!!
> One problem.....in the book there is a priest called Father Callahan.....I
> wonder if he dies or just kicked out of church.
After drinking Barlow's blood, Father Callahan had his way barred when he tried
to re-enter his church, because he was now unclean. Lightning struck the
handle, if memory serves. Since he can't do anything religious anymore, he
leaves town, via bus, wanting to to het drunk to forget what he's done, needing
the taste of alcohol to erase the taste of Barlow's blood.
That help you?
Jill
Jeffrey Budzynski
<rich...@cmt.anl.gov> writes:
>wo...@pi.net (wolly) wrote:
>>Hi Folks,
>>
>>Just read 'salems Lot.....it's GREAT!!!
>>
>>
>>One problem.....in the book there is a priest called Father
Callahan.....I
of Barlow
>>voluntary....remember?)
>>
>>Let me know what you freaks think.....
>
>You'll go far insulting those from which you desire an opinion.
>
>That said, what part of the book didn't you understand? King laid
>it all out in gory detail as to what happened to Callahan and what
>he did after his "defilement".
>
>--
>Mike
>
>My opinions, not Argonne's...
>
>
Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
Callahan only did what he did to spare an innocent (Mark Petrie).
So that should not be held against him.
Sean L Connell
Catholic-trained priest, even if he is now barred from holy ground. I am curious as to just what
becomes of the vampire priest, however...
bev vincent
: Father Callahan will never die unless he chooses to commit suicide, a real dilemma for a
: Catholic-trained priest, even if he is now barred from holy ground. I am curious as to just what
: becomes of the vampire priest, however...
King was curious, too, and once toyed with the idea of a sequel to Salem's Lot
which concentrated on what became of the good father after he got on the bus
and got the hell out of Dodge. But, unfortunately, that idea's time seems to
have passed so it is left to our imaginations to decide what became of him.
--
Bev Vincent
Houston, TX
Kinet Chi
says... {snip}
>>>Let me know what you freaks think.....
Freaks? He called us FrEaKs? Hey, I resemble that remark! :-)
:>>You'll go far insulting those from which you desire an opinion.
:>>That said, what part of the book didn't you understand? King laid
:>>it all out in gory detail as to what happened to Callahan and what
:>>he did after his "defilement".
->Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
-> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
->Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
->made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
-> Callahan only did what he did to spare an innocent (Mark Petrie).
->So that should not be held against him.
While I do agree with you for the most part, and I *also* liked the Father
Callahan character, there is one point I think you're overlooking.
The confrontation between Barlow and Callahan was supposed to be a "test of
faith". Callahan agreed to throw down his cross and confront the monster
"your God vs MY God".
When Mark was freed Callahan refused to "put his faith in God", keeping and
wielding the cross as a weapon. In other words his faith was in the icon
rather than the God it represented. This is where he got God pissed off.
I'm speaking *only* in the context of the novel. IMO Callahan was in major
trouble no matter *what* he did. If he had thrown down the cross the
results would probably have been the same.
BTW: I am an agnostic, so if I seem to be "preaching" it is unintentional.
-----------------
"There is no JUSTICE, there's JUST US" (attr) Terry Pratchett
Kinet Chi
>
->Father Callahan will never die unless he chooses to commit suicide, a real
->dilemma for a Catholic-trained priest, even if he is now barred from holy
->ground. I am curious as to just what becomes of the vampire priest,
->however...
It _would_ be fun to see him pop up in another story or novel, even if he's
only referred to by another character. Something along the line of the way
the "walkin' dude" tends to show up in a lot odd places in other stories.
We can only just hope. :)
- - - - - - - - - - -
thep...@one.net
you should be pissed at God, He should have divinely inspired SK to
write a different ending for that character?
============================================================================
Remember when you were young? You shone like the sun... shine on u crazy/\
You reached 4 the secret too soon, you tried 4 the moon....shine on u crazy\/
___ ___/ _/ _/ ______/ ________/ ___ ___/ _____ / ______/ _______/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ / / _/ _/ _/
_/ ____ _/ ____/ _ _____/ _/ _ _____/ ___/ _ _ __/
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _\
_/ _/ _/ _______/ _/ _______/ _/ _______/ _/ _\
C'mon you raver, you seer_\ of visions, c'mon you painter, you piper _\
_\ you prisoner and shine....... _/
______________________________________________________________________
Any Sig suggestions U may have can be emailed to bga...@mirosoft.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sven Anders Robbestad
>>Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
>> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
>>Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
>>made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
Now, now. God cannot do evil, right? Therefore evil does not come from
God. Where does that leave us? Yes, there must be an opposite to God.
The Christians have choosed to call him Satan. Now, as God cannot do
evil and since Barlow represents evil, Barlow must be Satan's work.
All according to Christian beliefs. So, you shouldn't be pissed of at
God, but at either Callahan because he didn't fully believe in God or
in Satan because he stole Callahan's soul. Either way, God is
innocent.
Don't flame me for preaching here, I'm not an agnostic and I won't
reveal my faith. The purpose of the post was just to clarify my
beliefs on what Callahan was up against and who inspired who.
If you think I'm wrong, I welcome your posts of course :)
There's just one thing I don't understand. Vampires are either lords
or servants and there's generally very few lords. Barlow was a lord,
all he had bitten were his servants. Shouldn't his curse over the
servants die when he himself was killed? If vampires can be compared
with werewolves the souls of the vampires are doomed because of the
curse put on them, however salvation can be given if the master is
killed and that the servant hasn't tasted human blood.
According to this theory the servants would all expire and salvation
would be given to those who hadn't tasted human blood. Also, since
Callahan doesn't have Barlow's blood or influence in him anymore he
would not be cursed but since he failed in the test of beliefs (in
Mark's house) he can never enter God's house again. He will die
eventually, but he will be denied entrance to heaven.
Or what do you think?
Sven Anders
--
- Sven Anders Robbestad -
- Rute 01, 2760 Brandbu e.mail sv...@sn.no -
- Tlf. 61335729 http://www.sn.no/~svena -
- -
- http://www.sn.no/~svena, why? Tolkien, Sir Doyle, Stephen King -
- all the games solution you'll need, cbm64, poems, links to the -
- most interesting pages on the net -- So stop by my page NOW! -
Richard Crawford
>
> >Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
> > Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
> >Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
> >made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
> >So that should not be held against him.
>
> you should be pissed at God, He should have divinely inspired SK to
> write a different ending for that character?
Umm... Maybe he meant that he was pissed at God as a Stephen King character, just like someone could
be pissed off at Norman Daniels or Ace Verrill.
Whether or not the original poster is pissed at God (whoever He, She, It, or They is) is a different
issue.
Hm... I guess God has shown up directly in at least two SK books: _Salem's Lot_ and _The Stand_.
Does God count as a recurring character, like Flagg?
-Richard, just wondering and bored at work.
JG. Head
: Umm... Maybe he meant that he was pissed at God as a Stephen King character, just like someone could
: be pissed off at Norman Daniels or Ace Verrill.
: Hm... I guess God has shown up directly in at least two SK books: _Salem's Lot_ and _The Stand_.
: Does God count as a recurring character, like Flagg?
I know King is influential, but he invented God? Bloody hell!
Jared
--
Jared Head at the Department of Biochemistry, University of Bristol
bev vincent
: Hi thep...@one.net:
: >>Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
: >> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
: >>Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
: >>made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
: Now, now. God cannot do evil, right? Therefore evil does not come from
: God. Where does that leave us? Yes, there must be an opposite to God.
: The Christians have choosed to call him Satan. Now, as God cannot do
: evil and since Barlow represents evil, Barlow must be Satan's work.
: All according to Christian beliefs. So, you shouldn't be pissed of at
: God, but at either Callahan because he didn't fully believe in God or
: in Satan because he stole Callahan's soul. Either way, God is
: innocent.
: If you think I'm wrong, I welcome your posts of course :)
Far be it from me to enter into a religious debate, but in the
biblical story Satan was originally one of God's favored angels,
right up there with Michael the archangel. But he got a little
out of hand and fell into disfavor with God and was banished
from heaven.
Jason Covener
>Path: news.cac.psu.edu!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!pravda.aa.msen.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sesqui.net!uuneo.neosoft.com!indigo!brv
>From: brv@indigo (bev vincent)
>Newsgroups: alt.books.stephen-king
>Subject: Re: HELP!!! Does Father Callahan die?????
>Date: 28 Mar 1996 14:45:08 GMT
>Organization: NeoSoft Internet Services +1 713 968 5800
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>X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]
>Sven Anders Robbestad (sv...@sn.no) wrote:
>: Hi thep...@one.net:
>: >>Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
>: >> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
>: >>Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
>: >>made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
I think you're missing the point. It wasn't supposed to be God that was
doing anything. Rather, it was Cal.'s faith in God. Its been about six years
since I read the story, but do you remember the part where they're busting
down a door or something, and king talks about how it seems like the power is
not coming from the christian god, but from some other force. The point I
think he was trying to make is that, by using their faith in God, they were
tapping in to some primal force.
When Cal. put his faith in to something so paltry as a ceramic cross
(rather than the god the cross represented) he couldn't really believe,
because he knew that he was just holding a piece of ceramic made by a man.
>: Now, now. God cannot do evil, right? Therefore evil does
not come from>: God. Where does that leave us? Yes, there must be an opposite
to God.>: The Christians have choosed to call him Satan. Now, as God cannot do
>: evil and since Barlow represents evil, Barlow must be Satan's work.
Hate to keep disagreeing, but no. The concept of good and evil simply does
not apply to God. It's like trying to apply temperature to sound or pitch
to color. The reason is that you simply can't find someone qualified to
judge. (this is all assuming you are talking about Christianaty/Judiasm, of
course)
>: All according to Christian beliefs. So, you shouldn't be pissed of
at>: God, but at either Callahan because he didn't fully believe in God or>:
in Satan because he stole Callahan's soul. Either way, God is>: innocent.
>: If you think I'm wrong, I welcome your posts of course :)
Kind of, but its even simpler than that. You shouldn't be pissed off
at god because you aren't qualified to judge him. The Book of Job illustrates
this quite well.
>Far be it from me to enter into a religious debate, but in the
>biblical story Satan was originally one of God's favored angels,
>right up there with Michael the archangel. But he got a little
>out of hand and fell into disfavor with God and was banished
>from heaven.
You are probably talking about Isiah 14:12 (it miight be 12:14, I'm not
going to look it up), which talks about lucifer, but never mentions Satan.
The whole myth about the fall from grace was kind of built up around a few
lines in Isiah and Revelations, with a smattering of Pagan myth. The bible
never makes it really clear who Satan is.
Just my $.02
I welcome dissent
J.
jaw...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
> : Hi thep...@one.net:
>
> : >>Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
> : >> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
> : >>Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
> : >>made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
Right. He allows evil, but He doesn't do it Himself.
> : So, you shouldn't be pissed of at God, but at either Callahan
<snip>
Right again. God gave each and every human being a free will. We make our own
moral decisions. If God wanted robots, that's what He would have made. He
doesn't control our thoughts.
Lucifer was one of God's creations, and one of His most favored at that, but
Lucifer had a free will. He chose to disobey, so he got what he got.
What happened to Satan (being banished from Heaven) was his own fault,
and the same goes for Barlow, too. Hence Callahan.
Yes Barlow is a vampire, maybe not even by his own means, but he knew what he
was doing when he made more. He could have just killed them like he did Mark's
parents (after getting his little sip of blood). To make more killers was
wrong.
And Callahan didn't *have* to drink Barlow's blood.
Jill
Steven Miner
>Hi thep...@one.net:
>>>Yeah, I think Callahan just wanders now... He's not dead, though.
>>> Hell, I am pretty pissed of at God for forsaking Callahan.
>>>Callahan was a noble spirit, attempting to do "God's will," and if God
>>>made creation, then Barlow was HIS fault in the first place.
>Now, now. God cannot do evil, right? Therefore evil does not come from
>God. Where does that leave us? Yes, there must be an opposite to God.
>The Christians have choosed to call him Satan. Now, as God cannot do
>evil and since Barlow represents evil, Barlow must be Satan's work.
>All according to Christian beliefs. So, you shouldn't be pissed of at
>God, but at either Callahan because he didn't fully believe in God or
>in Satan because he stole Callahan's soul. Either way, God is
>innocent.
>Don't flame me for preaching here, I'm not an agnostic and I won't
>reveal my faith. The purpose of the post was just to clarify my
>beliefs on what Callahan was up against and who inspired who.
>If you think I'm wrong, I welcome your posts of course :)
>There's just one thing I don't understand. Vampires are either lords
>or servants and there's generally very few lords. Barlow was a lord,
>all he had bitten were his servants. Shouldn't his curse over the
>servants die when he himself was killed? If vampires can be compared
>with werewolves the souls of the vampires are doomed because of the
>curse put on them, however salvation can be given if the master is
>killed and that the servant hasn't tasted human blood.
>According to this theory the servants would all expire and salvation
>would be given to those who hadn't tasted human blood. Also, since
>Callahan doesn't have Barlow's blood or influence in him anymore he
>would not be cursed but since he failed in the test of beliefs (in
>Mark's house) he can never enter God's house again. He will die
>eventually, but he will be denied entrance to heaven.
>Or what do you think?
>Sven Anders
>--
>- Sven Anders Robbestad -
>- Rute 01, 2760 Brandbu e.mail sv...@sn.no -
>- Tlf. 61335729 http://www.sn.no/~svena -
>- -
>- http://www.sn.no/~svena, why? Tolkien, Sir Doyle, Stephen King -
>- all the games solution you'll need, cbm64, poems, links to the -
>- most interesting pages on the net -- So stop by my page NOW! -
Depends on the version of Vampires your talking about, some writers
have the "subject" die off or "heal" after the lord dies, others have
them each a seperate entity (albeit still underlings) that go on
living after the lord dies.
Sven Anders Robbestad
>Yes Barlow is a vampire, maybe not even by his own means, but he knew what he
>was doing when he made more. He could have just killed them like he did Mark's
>parents (after getting his little sip of blood). To make more killers was
>wrong.
Maybe he had an inflated ego? Seriously, I know little enough about
vampires to "understand" why he wanted this army of servants.
>And Callahan didn't *have* to drink Barlow's blood.
I think he sort of had to as he failed in his trust in God. Barlow was
all-evil and the ultimate victory over God was to take one of his
servants and make him a virtual undead. He did not only mock God in
other words but spat in his face at the same time.
>Jill
wade sherwin kendall
and I remember reading an interview with Mr. King in the late seventies
regarding Father Callahan.
Mr. King was contemplating writing a sequel to the Lot at that time and
the way he wanted to begin the tale was with a bum coming up to the
wayward Father in a bowery (possibly NY) and basically dying in the
Callahan's arms. But as he died he gasped his last uttering, which
would've consisted of "It ain't over in the Lot yet, fadder."
I was always hoping that Mr. King would write this sequel. He stated that
the Father was the main character in the original, as he viewed it then,
and that any sequel would involve bringing the Father back into direct
conflict with this evil.
Just my two cents.
Wade
Sven Anders Robbestad
>: If you think I'm wrong, I welcome your posts of course :)
>
>Far be it from me to enter into a religious debate, but in the
>biblical story Satan was originally one of God's favored angels,
>right up there with Michael the archangel. But he got a little
>out of hand and fell into disfavor with God and was banished
>from heaven.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I forgot that. I don't think (at least,
hope) that this will turn into a religious debate. They're usually so
"I'm right, you're not" vs "No, I'm right, you're a nut" etc.
Anyway, it was King who brought it up in the first place :)
>--
>Bev Vincent
>Houston, TX
--
Sven Anders Robbestad
>Depends on the version of Vampires your talking about, some writers
>have the "subject" die off or "heal" after the lord dies, others have
>them each a seperate entity (albeit still underlings) that go on
>living after the lord dies.
Yes, that's the problem with myths. You never know who's right or
who's wrong. Suppose you met a vampire; the myth dispelled. What
should you believe in and what should you do if you got bitten. Tough
questions to answer if you ever get tangled into such a messy
situation.
Fortunately such a situation seems unlikely to happen :)
Sven Anders
Sven Anders Robbestad
Hi!
Dani wrote:
>>PS: By the way...insofar as the good priest...Personally, I don't
>>think he'll die anytime soon. I expect he'll die slowly from
>>alcoholism. And I'd venture to say that insofar as that Judeo-
>>Christian diety goes, he's damned. Be kinda cool to see him
>>find personal salvation in some antique pre-Christian Pagan
>>diety, dontchathink?
Azure's response:
> What you offer as a possibly "cool" occurrence is inherently
>paradoxical. If the "God" who essentially disowned Father Callahan is
>truly the god he's supposed to be (i.e. the ONE God), and he exists as
>GOD, then it follows that there could not BE "some antique
>pre-Christian Pagan diety." Do you follow? The principle of God, as I
>understand it, is that there IS no other god but "him." Or are you
>alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods to parade around as
>dieties? I know of no reference to such in the biblical canon, but I'm
>no expert on that...
>
I think you got Dani wrong here. Pagans believed in other gods, but
according to Christians there have never been any other gods. The
Pagans didn't know this of course. To elaborate, God wrote in his ten
commandments that you shouldn't have any other gods, implying that
there has always only been one God.
Kinet Chi
> What you offer as a possibly "cool" occurrence is inherently
>paradoxical. If the "God" who essentially disowned Father Callahan is
>truly the god he's supposed to be (i.e. the ONE God), and he exists as
>GOD, then it follows that there could not BE "some antique
>pre-Christian Pagan diety." Do you follow? The principle of God, as I
>understand it, is that there IS no other god but "him." Or are you
>alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods to parade around as
>dieties? I know of no reference to such in the biblical canon, but I'm
>no expert on that...
Hmmm.... BudZYNski. Yep. That works for me.
Ever hear of circular logic? Reread your post.
Please explain to me (agnostic scum that I am) _exactly_ how you could
expect to find reference to a pre-christian pagan diety in the book that
espouses that there never was any god BUT "I AM" (as he first introduced
himself to Moses)? Remember the part about "I am the alpha and the omega"?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
"Confusion reins, sometimes it pours." Jefferson Starship - "Hyperdrive"
Jeffrey Budzynski
writes:
>
>Sven wonders about myth and reality...
>
>>...and what should you do if you got bitten. Tough questions
>
>
>*with a few snips*
>
>: "She BIT me!" Jimmy howled. "Oh God-
>: Jesus she BIT me!"
>: "Don't touch me. I'm unclean."
>: "Give me my bag. Jesus, Ben I can feel
>: it in there. I can feel it working in me.
>: FOR CHRIST'S SAKE GIVE ME MY BAG!"
>: ...Jimmy snatched it. His face was death
>: pale, shining with sweat. The blood pulsed
>: remorselessly from the torn gash in his neck.
>: ...opened the bag and swept through it, his
>: breath coming in whining gasps through his
>: open mouth.
>: She BIT me," he muttered into the bag.
>: "Her mouth...oh God, her dirty filthy MOUTH."
>: He pulled a bottle of disinfectant out of
>: the bag and sent the cap spinning across the
>: tiled floor. He leaned back, supporting him-
>: self on one arm, and upended the bottle over
>: his throat, and it splashed the wound, his
>: slacks, the table. His eyes closed and he
>: screamed once, then again. The bottle never
>: wavered.
>: He stripped the protective covering from
>: the needle and jabbed it through the ampoule.
>: His hands were shaking so badly he had to
>: make two thrusts at it. He filled the needle
>: and held it out to Ben.
>: "Tetanus," he said. "Give it to me. Here."
>: He held his arm out, rotated to expose the
>: armpit.
>: "Put the cross on me," he said. If I'm still
>: dirty from her it'll...it'll do something to me."
>
>I was massively bummed when Jimmy Cody died. That was one tough
>doc.
>
>Dani K.
>
>PS: By the way...insofar as the good priest...Personally, I don't
>think he'll die anytime soon. I expect he'll die slowly from
>alcoholism. And I'd venture to say that insofar as that Judeo-
>Christian diety goes, he's damned. Be kinda cool to see him
>find personal salvation in some antique pre-Christian Pagan
>diety, dontchathink?
>
What you offer as a possibly "cool" occurrence is inherently
paradoxical. If the "God" who essentially disowned Father Callahan is
truly the god he's supposed to be (i.e. the ONE God), and he exists as
GOD, then it follows that there could not BE "some antique
pre-Christian Pagan diety." Do you follow? The principle of God, as I
understand it, is that there IS no other god but "him." Or are you
alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods to parade around as
dieties? I know of no reference to such in the biblical canon, but I'm
no expert on that...
Azure
Jan Junod
In response to Azure....
somewhat snipped.....
>>The principle of God, as I understand it, is that there IS
> >no other god but "him."
>
> Exactly. As YOU understand it. Not necessarily as I understand
> it.
>
> >Or are you alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods
> >to parade around as dieties?
>
> I'm not alleging anything. I'm not even admitting to any
> particular belief system in reference to dieties or the universe.
>
> I will say that if the Judeo-Christian-Moslem diety is a valid
> diety at all, he's a vicious, jealous, conceited asshole.
> Certainly not the TOP god.
>
> >I know of no reference to such in the biblical canon, but I'm
> >no expert on that...
>
> I'm not an expert either, but then again, I don't assume that
> the writings that are in the bible are the be-all and end-all
> of human religiosity.
>
> Dani K.
>
My thoughts exactly. I neither believe the Bible or the Judeo-Christian
ideology as my higher power. Give me a pagan deity any day.
Jan Junod ju...@u.washington.edu
***************************************************************************
God is coming, and *is* she pissed!!!!
****************************************************************************
Jeffrey Budzynski
writes:
>
>Speaking of Father Callahan, I said...
>
>>>Be kinda cool to see him find personal salvation in some
>>>antique pre-Christian Pagan diety, dontchathink?
>
>
>>What you offer as a possibly "cool" occurrence is inherently
>>paradoxical. If the "God" who essentially disowned Father
>>Callahan is truly the god he's supposed to be (i.e. the ONE
>>God), and he exists as GOD, then it follows that there could
>>not BE "some antique pre-Christian Pagan diety." Do you
>>follow?
>
>this Judeo-Christian-Moslem definition of the 'One True God'.
>I don't. I've had problems with this concept since grade
>school, when some Sunday School Teacher tried to convince
>me that the Commandment "Thou shalt have no other gods before
>me" meant that there WERE no other gods. My question was,
>"If there aren't any other gods, what's He got to be jealous
>of and how could a diety that doesn't exist at all be *before*
>Him?".
>
>
>>The principle of God, as I understand it, is that there IS
>>no other god but "him."
>
>Exactly. As YOU understand it. Not necessarily as I understand
>it.
>
>>Or are you alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods
>>to parade around as dieties?
>
>I'm not alleging anything. I'm not even admitting to any
>particular belief system in reference to dieties or the universe.
>
>I will say that if the Judeo-Christian-Moslem diety is a valid
>diety at all, he's a vicious, jealous, conceited asshole.
>Certainly not the TOP god.
>
>>I know of no reference to such in the biblical canon, but I'm
>>no expert on that...
>
>I'm not an expert either, but then again, I don't assume that
>the writings that are in the bible are the be-all and end-all
>of human religiosity.
>
>Dani K.
>
Holy Shit!
Dani and I appear to more-or-less agree on something! I still want
to address a few points, though.
I get what you're saying about the commandment not *necessarily*
meaning that there ARE no gods to even PUT before "God." But you seem
to say, "Why would God make a commandment when the thing that is
commanded against could never even be DONE, i.e. in the absence of
other gods?" And I say to that that he might have been commanding
against worshiping even "pretend" gods. You know, the kind that one
might formulate a mythology about when they don't understand their
little corner of existence. (sarcasm to note: that's exactly why I
believe this Judeo-Christian "God" was called into creation -- to make
people feel secure.)
Dani, I am an atheist and I am almost to the point of being animous
toward religion. I feel that it does very little but HARM, in the long
run. Sure, it may organize charity drives here and there, but pull
your focus back some and you see that there are WARS fought and
MILLIONS HAVE DIED because "My religion is truer than YOUR religion!"
After all, it's pretty stupid IMHO to strain to believe something for
which NO real evidence exists. It's like saying, "I don't know what
caused me to miss that big piece of wood in the road, but I'm glad I
did, and I'll attribute my fortune to little invisible elves that stand
by the side of the road and watch to prevent just such a misfortune."
It's illogical to go and conceive a big elaborate system just to
justify something that only exists when you conceive a big elaborate
system to make it exist. This can sortof be summarized by the phrase,
"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras." So when you
think, "Wow, look at this flower. What could have created this
flower?" you should think of the SIMPLEST, least complex explanation,
not just LEAP to saying,
"IT-WAS-AN-ALL-POWERFUL-GOD-AND-YOU-BETTER-DO-WHAT-HE-SAYS-OR-YOU'LL-RO
-IN-A-NASTY-FIERY-PIT-OF-HIS-OWN-CONTRIVANCE!" That's just NOT the
first step you should take in answering the question.
Dani, I don't think you can validly say all you've said here and
still cover up by saying, "I'm not alleging anything," because yes you
have! You're alleging things like There could be/are other lesser gods
in God's universe, among other things. It's not crucial to the
discussion, but let's be honest that you are indeed alleging things.
As far as the Ju.Chr. God being a belligerent, jealous fuck, I
believe you're right. How else can you explain why he'd set us all up
to fail like he has? He says, "I'll punish you if you don't do my
will," and then he MAKES us able to not do his will! He's like,
running his own little soap-opera and if he controls all, then aren't
we sortof acting scripts that we can't affect the lines of? Stupid
stupid stupid. So is *believing* in it. I can understand and
appreciate the sense of peace that can come from "letting go and
letting god," but it should only be taken as far as a personal,
internal sense of well-being, not out to some church where you aren't
allowed to fit in unless you file yourself down to fit their dogma, and
everything about your beliefs has to be the party line.
Azure
Jeffrey Budzynski
writes:
>>>think he'll die anytime soon. I expect he'll die slowly from
>>>alcoholism. And I'd venture to say that insofar as that Judeo-
>>>find personal salvation in some antique pre-Christian Pagan
>>>diety, dontchathink?
>
>
>> What you offer as a possibly "cool" occurrence is inherently
>>paradoxical. If the "God" who essentially disowned Father Callahan
is
>>truly the god he's supposed to be (i.e. the ONE God), and he exists
as
>>GOD, then it follows that there could not BE "some antique
I
>>understand it, is that there IS no other god but "him." Or are you
>>alleging that in god's universe, he allows sub-gods to parade around
as
I'm
>>no expert on that...
>>
>according to Christians there have never been any other gods. The
>Pagans didn't know this of course. To elaborate, God wrote in his ten
>commandments that you shouldn't have any other gods, implying that
>there has always only been one God.
>
>Sven Anders
>
>--
>- Sven Anders Robbestad -
>- Rute 01, 2760 Brandbu e.mail sv...@sn.no -
>- Tlf. 61335729 http://www.sn.no/~svena -
>- -
>- http://www.sn.no/~svena, why? Tolkien, Sir Doyle, Stephen King -
>- all the games solution you'll need, cbm64, poems, links to the -
>- most interesting pages on the net -- So stop by my page NOW! -
I wasn't making a philosophical point or a theological point at
all. What I was saying was that there is a continuity-problem in what
Dani suggested a la having a non-christian diety step in and save the
day. If in the context of the novel GOD said, "Hey, Callahan, you're
fucked," well if you accept the terms that God IS God, you are also
forced to accept the context that there would (in that situation) BE no
other non-christian diety, or so the judeo-christian folklore goes...
i.e. If God is the God we all talk about, that God exists in a
universe where there are no other gods. To make this simple, if you're
Christian, you do NOT go and envision that your God and Jesus exist
side-by-side in a reality where there is also Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite,
etcetera. Why? Because each religion and god-group has its own
"story" about the creation, and there can be only ONE, logically.
Otherwise you're talking about parallel realities.
Azure
Kinet Chi
> I wasn't making a philosophical point or a theological point at
>all. What I was saying was that there is a continuity-problem in what
>Dani suggested a la having a non-christian diety step in and save the
>day.
{snip}
In the context of the character of Father Callahan, you're right. From
_his_ point of view there could be no other god, and I doubt that SK even
concidered a redemption from another source.
From my point of view (as I said earlier, I'm agnostic) I would have loved
it if SK found _some_ way for Callahan to say to god: "Cut the SHIT! I did
the best I could do! YOU created this monster, not me. All *I* was trying
to do was save the life of one of your children!"
Unfortunatly, this is not something that would have been a part of the good
Father's nature. Even if he had said it, he would probably have gotten the
same "answer" as Job got when _he_ asked why god was tormenting him: "Where
were YOU when *I* created the heavens and the earth?". In other words, how
dare you question me.
Chi
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"If reckless, he can be killed; if cowardly, captured; if quick
tempered you can make a fool of him..." Sun Tsu - "The Art Of War"
Rachel J.
set forth:
<snip -- heck, there've been enough postings that anyone reading this
one probably knows the background>
> I wasn't making a philosophical point or a theological point at
>all. What I was saying was that there is a continuity-problem in what
>Dani suggested a la having a non-christian diety step in and save the
>day. If in the context of the novel GOD said, "Hey, Callahan, you're
>fucked," well if you accept the terms that God IS God, you are also
>forced to accept the context that there would (in that situation) BE no
>other non-christian diety, or so the judeo-christian folklore goes...
> i.e. If God is the God we all talk about, that God exists in a
>universe where there are no other gods. To make this simple, if you're
>Christian, you do NOT go and envision that your God and Jesus exist
>side-by-side in a reality where there is also Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite,
>etcetera. Why? Because each religion and god-group has its own
>"story" about the creation, and there can be only ONE, logically.
>Otherwise you're talking about parallel realities.
Hey, parallel realities! Sounds like "fiction" to me -- and isn't
this where this started, with a possible piece of fiction that would
be interesting to read?
Now, don't get me started on possible world semantics . . . <G>
Rachel e-mail: rac...@ix.netcom.com
________________________________________________________
"The human language is like a cracked kettle on which we beat out a
tune for a dancing bear, when we hope with our music to move the stars."
___ -- Gustave Flaubert (Madame Bovary) _______________________
Sven Anders Robbestad
>>I think you got Dani wrong here. Pagans believed in other gods, but
>>according to Christians there have never been any other gods. The
>>Pagans didn't know this of course. To elaborate, God wrote in his ten
>>commandments that you shouldn't have any other gods, implying that
>>there has always only been one God.
>
> I wasn't making a philosophical point or a theological point at
>all.
No, I never said you did either.
<snipped logical deduction>
> i.e. If God is the God we all talk about, that God exists in a
>universe where there are no other gods. To make this simple, if you're
>Christian, you do NOT go and envision that your God and Jesus exist
>side-by-side in a reality where there is also Zeus, Apollo, Aphrodite,
>etcetera. Why? Because each religion and god-group has its own
>"story" about the creation, and there can be only ONE, logically.
>Otherwise you're talking about parallel realities.
>
Yes, _but_ for the individual, in this case Callahan, there is only
faith. Callahan might have lost his faith in God, maybe searching for
salvation in other religions. So, it's not really paradoxical for the
individual to convert from christianity to another religion as long as
he completely denounces christianity.
JG. Head
: Yes, _but_ for the individual, in this case Callahan, there is only
: faith. Callahan might have lost his faith in God, maybe searching for
: salvation in other religions. So, it's not really paradoxical for the
: individual to convert from christianity to another religion as long as
: he completely denounces christianity.
Didn't Father Callahan get burned by the handle on the church door? That
would imply to me he has become anathema in the eyes of the Christian
God, who now won't let him into His churches. Surely a big singe mark on
his hand will have done no harm in helping him recover his faith.
natha...@gmail.com
On Monday, March 25, 1996 at 2:00:00 AM UTC-6, wolly wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> Just read 'salems Lot.....it's GREAT!!!
>
>
> One problem.....in the book there is a priest called Father Callahan.....I
> wonder if he dies or just kicked out of church. (He sucked the blood of Barlow
> voluntary....remember?)
> Let me know what you freaks think.....
>
>
bonq...@gmail.com
I just read through up to Callahan's fate. He died satisfied. He died well.
matthewmc...@gmail.com
> Hi Folks,
>
> Just read 'salems Lot.....it's GREAT!!!
>
>
> One problem.....in the book there is a priest called Father Callahan.....I
> wonder if he dies or just kicked out of church. (He sucked the blood of Barlow
> voluntary....remember?)
>
> Let me know what you freaks think.....
>
>
> Jan