Pennywise and the Tommyknockers
Jon Skeet
Dani_K <dan...@koffee.vip.best.com> wrote:
> Here's the quote, Love:
:) And I thought all that would have to stop now you're married...
(Sorry everyone, I just can't resist a little flirt every now and
again)
> Okay. Now lets argue. *grin*
> >I reckon that was what was left of her home planet.
> I can almost buy it being part of her home planet (that
> isn't the REAL problem with my theory though, but I'll get to the
> real problem in a minute).
<snip bit saying real problem is that it lands 30 miles away>
How's about this for an expansion on your theory:
The Tommyknockers are always fighting with each other. Suppose IT
was their leader. Their planet gets blown apart. IT flies off in
this direction, in either a spaceship or the bit of planet she's
living on/in, whatever. The loyal part of the Tommyknocker race send
spaceships off to follow and build up their race again. They form a
little fleet, but they haven't reckoned (there I go again) on our
atmosphere - I guess theirs may be thinner. So as they go through
re-entry (although maybe that should just be called entry?)
everything goes haywire 'cos of the heat. IT's bit lands near Derry,
another ship lands near Bobbi. Those two we know about... but maybe
there are more...
Does that help at all Dani?
Having said all that...
> >I can't see IT being part of a technological race, somehow.
>
> Remember in Tommyknockers when Bobbie talks about the ability
> the Tommyknockers have to make those cool things? She says
> they aren't that bright--they don't invent things, they just
> improve them. She calls them tinkers, not inventors.
>
> That was one of the things that made me think the Tommyknockers
> were immature. That's the sort of thing that kids do. They get
> a wild hair, build a pipe bomb, not even really sure if it will
> work, and then go blow up the neighbors' mailbox.
Hmm... this doesn't work with me. You're saying "Tommyknockers are
immature 'cos they act like kids" - but IT doesn't act like an
adult. Kids tinker, adults invent. They just don't remind me of each
other. Sorry!
> >2) We don't see It herself being young, but we *do* see her
> >kids. I know by the time we see them the whole place has gone
> >on a massive trip, but I think they were little spiders, as
> >far as people could see them. They'd have to change from that
> >into Tommyknockers and then back into an IT-type thing.
>
> See, that one doesn't bother me even a little bit. Because they
> were killing what she was birthing, and Pennywise had this talent
> for looking like what people imagined. I expect the Losers would
> have seen what they expected to see. Pennywise was currently a
> spider, so they were stepping on baby spiders. No stress there--
> at least not for me.
As I say, they just don't *feel* the same to me. I'd expect even
immature Tommyknockers to have some shape-shifting ability, or some
more ethereal quality than they have.
Of course, there's also the business of the Turtle and stuff... IT
thinks she's been alone for a *very* long time, which isn't what I'd
expect if she'd been on a ship with others of her race. She would
know they'd been alive recently. Sorry, I've started wittering!
Jon
--
Jon Skeet
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
web-server-account
Dani_K (dan...@koffee.vip.best.com) wrote:
: Pennywise gave up that tinkering poop and went about gettin'
: herself pregnant. Even if she was insane, she was doin' what
: she was s'posed to do. What I'm curious about is how she managed
: that. Was her race one of those that can get themselved tommy-
: knocked up all by themselves or was there another survivor around
: somewhere to help her do it? Maybe somebody with a little more
: sanity than she who didn't wanna live with her 'cause she was
: such a nut but dropped in every 10,000 years or so to get a
: little nooky.
Given IT's inordinatetly long lifespan, I guess it is not unreasonable
to see an extremely long gestation period. Maybe IT was pregnant when
it came to earth. IT's meal schedule is on a vastly different time
scale from our own -- a lengthy meal every quarter century or so.
Some random and meaningless calculations -- we eat every six hours.
If six hours = 25 years, then a 9 month gestation period translates
to 27000 years. These are just rough numbers since the six hours and
25 years are just rounded numbers to make the maths easier!
: I kinda figured the Turtle was Pennywise in disguise. Wait! Wait!
: Don't start yelling yet, lemme FINISH.
: They didn't kill Pennywise the first time around but they kicked
: her butt. The second time around, Pennywise was recovering and
: the Turtle was dead.
: What if the Turtle was the sane part of Pennywise? Or at least
: the kindly (can't say humane since we all agree she's alien) part?
: And when they kicked her butt the first time, that tired old sane
: part of her finally gave up.
: I bet he was. If *I* was the thread of sanity left in Pennywise
: after all those years, I'd be damn tired too. And I can't see a
: manifestation of The Purpose being too tired to help. I can see
: Purpose telling us they aren't gonna interfere, but not that they
: don't feel good.
An interesting proposition. How about if the turtle really is Pennywise
and it is another of the great deceptions -- designed to discourage
the losers. Set up a putative heroic god-like figure and then show it
to be weak and disinterested and eventually dead.
--
Bev Vincent
Houston, TX
Matthew Hunt
Wish I could leave in at least some of what I'm responding to, but my
editor has an "all or nothing" policy, probably due to its advanced age.
Anyway, the idea that the Turtle didn't help the Losers is a two-edged
blade (or
two-bladed sword or whatever). Sure, when Bill found him, he said the
Losers were on their own. But up until that point (at least in '58),
there were several comments by Bill about the less-than-random nature of
the gathering of the Losers, how they almost felt called to be with each
other in the Barrens, and how that other kid with the lisp just wasn't
*part* of them, which to me meant he didn't fit in with whatever plan was
drawing the Losers together. And whose plan? The turtle's.
And outside of the deadlights, every mention of the turtle is seemily
without purpose, or at least explanation, but they all come right at a
critical point. When Georgie gets gets the parafin from the basement, he
sees the turtle on the can of wax and becomes entranced by it. Then, It
gets him. My take on this was SK using the idea that what seems evil may
really be good in disguise.
For instance, if Georgie hadn't been killed by It, would Bill ever have
had any reason to lead the Losers, or any passion to keep them together?
Maybe the turtle couldn't stop It from claiming Its victims, but perhaps
it steered Georgie into harm's way with the cruel but
eventually-victorious result of Bill killing It.
And later, as an adult, Bill thinks he sees a turtle drawn in chalk on the
sidewalk, but it turns out to be hopscotch. But minutes later, he meets
the little kid/ghost who shows Bill that if he tries to challenge It on
the exact same terms as in '58, he's gonna fall of that skateboard and get
hurt.
To me, SK's central theme of Good vs. Evil has been the Active vs. the
Passive, Randall Flagg vs. the athiest Nick, Leland Gaunt against the
simple (and until the end--mostly clueless) Alan Pangborn. So the fact
that the turtle told Bill they were on their own says more to me about
SK's ideas of how Good works in the world--by gathering subtly and then
having faith in it's people (in other words, though this is just an
analogy and shouldn't be taken as a speculation in SK's actual
beliefs, Providence)--than in the powers of the turtle in particular.
Not that this in any way goes against the most intersting link theory I've
read on this newsgroup to date, and I am still tipping my hat to you Dani.
Matthew Hunt
Takin' it easy for all those "mellowly challenged" people
Valérie
dan...@koffee.vip.best.com (Dani_K) wrote:
-I might actually be a little bummed if Steve rang me and said,
-"Hey Dani, I read your theory and just wanted you to know it's
-not true--not even a little bit," or even if he said, "Yup, that's
-exactly it, Dani. Good call!" The former would mean I had to put
-away my toy, and the latter, while gratifying, might still bum me
-a little 'cause he thought of it first. Well, maybe it wouldn't
-bum me, 'cause he didn't exactly lay it out. I *did* figure it out
-all by myself. No matter, it's my toy and I guess I'll keep it.
Oh come on now, dear. If Stephen King called you up on the phone
you'd be so thrilled that I don't think you'd *care* what he
actually said to you. (Although if he told you your ideas were
full of crap, you might get a little annoyed, but then you'd
probably figure out that he was an imposter anyway, and have a
joyous time of flaming the guy here on absk. ;-) )
--
Peace...
Valérie
r...@netrail.net
Valérie
Matthew Hunt <ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
-Anyway, the idea that the Turtle didn't help the Losers is a two-edged
-blade (or
-two-bladed sword or whatever). Sure, when Bill found him, he said the
-Losers were on their own. But up until that point (at least in '58),
-there were several comments by Bill about the less-than-random nature of
-the gathering of the Losers, how they almost felt called to be with each
-other in the Barrens, and how that other kid with the lisp just wasn't
-*part* of them, which to me meant he didn't fit in with whatever plan was
-drawing the Losers together. And whose plan? The turtle's.
He wasn't part of their ka-tet? (I'm going to have to reread It,
I guess... I don't remember a kid with a lisp.)
<snip>
-To me, SK's central theme of Good vs. Evil has been the Active vs. the
-Passive, Randall Flagg vs. the athiest Nick, Leland Gaunt against the
-simple (and until the end--mostly clueless) Alan Pangborn. So the fact
-that the turtle told Bill they were on their own says more to me about
-SK's ideas of how Good works in the world--by gathering subtly and then
-having faith in it's people (in other words, though this is just an
-analogy and shouldn't be taken as a speculation in SK's actual
-beliefs, Providence)--than in the powers of the turtle in particular.
-Not that this in any way goes against the most intersting link theory I've
-read on this newsgroup to date, and I am still tipping my hat to you Dani.
The Turtle helps those that help themselves? :-)
--
Peace...
Valérie
r...@netrail.net
The Jabberwock
[snip]
...sorry, i didn't feel like picking out so i snipped everything...i'm not
doing a point-by-point anyways...
i'm sure someone can find a way around the point i'm about to make, but i
think you should give it some serious consideration before thinking
pennywise is a tommyknocker...
the tommyknockers required a special atmosphere...the more the people of
haven became tommyknockers, the more they had to manufacture it.
pennywise never showed any signs of having difficulty breathing, of taking
along Its handy 'tommyknocker-atmosphere' tank or anything of the
kind...also, it made no preparations for Its 'babies'. if It had perchance
grown accustomed to our atmosphere...would Its babies be accustomed too? i
don't think they would be.
___ ___ __ __ __ __ ___ __ _ _
__ | |_| |_ | |_| |_> |_> |_ |_> \ / / \ / |_/
| | | |__ \_| | | |_> |_> |__ | \ \/\/ \_/ \_ | \
*************
I will not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death which brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. When it is passed, I will turn the inner eye to follow its path. Where it has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
-Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
Jon Skeet
Dani_K <dan...@koffee.vip.best.com> wrote:
> Damn, I'm having fun. You're fun to argue with.
Cheers - it's been too long since I've actually done any *King*
arguing!
> Jon, have you ever noticed how incredibly male you are?
This without even meeting me... Have you been talking to Holly again? :)
> I never said kids tinker, adults invent. That's a very male
> thought. If I was gonna say something like that, I'd say kids
> tinker, adults reproduce. hehehe
You're right, of course. Hey - evil thought - do you think they had
Barbie on IT's planet? It's kinda hard to imagine her playing with
dolls without knawing at their armpits...
> If Pennywise was male, I'd go with kids tinker, adults invent,
> but she wasn't male. She was 100% pure grade triple A femme.
>
> Pennywise gave up that tinkering poop and went about gettin'
> herself pregnant. Even if she was insane, she was doin' what
> she was s'posed to do.
A couple of times in this post you mention IT being insane. I'm not
so sure about this. Sure she's a bit power-crazy, but I'm not sure
about actually insane. I think it's just the way her race does
things. Maybe she's just lonely, and needs someone to understand
her. After all, the Losers just tried to kill her - none of them
even considered giving her a hug and a cup of Horlicks!
> What I'm curious about is how she managed
> that. Was her race one of those that can get themselved tommy-
> knocked up all by themselves or was there another survivor around
> somewhere to help her do it?
I've a small idea about this... I know the spider idea is just the
closest human's can see her as, but maybe her race is one of those
where the female eats the male after sex. Or maybe he's somewhere in
the deadlights, the poor thing.
> As for that Turtle bit...here I'm gonna get in trouble. 'Cause
> while I took just about everything about Pennywise and her
> abilities pretty much as fact, I never took the Turtle seriously,
> never really considered it much than an hallucination. I mean,
> it didn't exactly help the Losers.
> I kinda figured the Turtle was Pennywise in disguise. Wait! Wait!
> Don't start yelling yet, lemme FINISH.
Nope. Again, this just doesn't sit right on my shoulders, as it
were. Good as your arguments are, it just doesn't feel right. Also,
I think the Turtle *did* help them, just by being there. After all,
when you're having a bit of a rumble with a metaphysical entity,
it's nice to know there's more to the universe than a psychotic
bitch on the top. (I should know - us Brits had to put up with one
for about 13 years! ;)
> What if the Turtle was the sane part of Pennywise?
I don't know if you were consciously thinking of Litte Blaine and
Big Blaine when you wrote that, but it leapt up to me and grabbed me
by the nose. But it doesn't feel right. Sorry, I know it's hard to
argue with things like that, but their voices just feel too far apart.
Here's an actual argument against it instead of a feeling:
If the Turtle was part of Pennywise, how could he surprise her so
much by saying there was an "other". (This is all if I remember
correctly, of course. And I can't look anything up 'cos Holly's got
my copy - yup, conversion is on it's way!) I seem to remember
Pennywise screaming that the Turtle was lying, but then got afraid
'cos she started feeling the other, or something like that.
Sure, maybe the Turtle could hide that info from his "other half",
but where did he get it in the first place, and why couldn't
Pennywise get it too?
> We know Pennywise is doin' a whole bunch of bragging and lying.
> She's talking about being an eater of worlds and she claims the
> Turtle puked up the universe. The Turtle sorta mentions that,
> says he had a bellyache and it's never really gotten better.
> Does that mean Pennywise is into eating upchuck, or does it mean
> (this is what I think) that she's gotten that phrase, 'Eater of
> Worlds' stuck in her head and *this* world made her so nuts that
> she's dissociated from the part of herself that was ill or injured
> when she got here?
I think when we start getting metaphysical, vomit probably changes
in texture, if you know what I mean. I'm not sure that Eater of
Worlds is literal anyway... or maybe she's talking about a different
universe. After all "there are other worlds than this". No, I'm not
making much sense, am I?
> I never bought any of the theories about the
> Turtle being part of the Light, or a manifestation of The Purpose,
> because the Turtle, whom the kids had counted on to be helpful,
> wasn't helpful at all. He essentially told Bill that they were
> all on their own, he was tired.
I reckon he could still be part of the Purpose - just one that had
had his heyday quite a while ago. I mean, if spewing up the universe
isn't enough to earn you a retirement from active Purpose
Fulfillment, I think Roland's got a big job on his hands! Put it
this way, I *like* to believe he's part of the purpose.
> Anyhow, keep 'em coming Jon. This thread isn't making me all
> nervous about potential flame wars.
Me either. If I thought you were gonna flame me, I'd be scared to go
near a computer :)
> HUGE HUGS to my inventing friend.
... and a model railway to my procreating one. (With a side order of
HUGE HUGS too, of course!)
> I'll letcha know if I manage to do the femme thing
> and start growing another of us.
It's a good job most of us don't read King just to get scared.
Otherwise Dani could put him out of a job just with one sentence
like that...
Smiling all the way to the game of Worms awaiting me,
Jon
--
Jon
Now here is a riddle to guess if you can, sing the bells of Notre Dame
What makes a monster and what makes a man?
millsaul
Dani_K wrote:
(big snip)
> I never bought any of the theories about the
> Turtle being part of the Light, or a manifestation of The Purpose,
> because the Turtle, whom the kids had counted on to be helpful,
> wasn't helpful at all. He essentially told Bill that they were
> all on their own, he was tired.
Damn it is a long time since I read IT. I gotta go back and start
re-reading if I am gonna hang around hear and have much to say <G>
Anyway Dani ... I don't think the "unhelpfulness" of the turtle precludes
it being part of the "Purpose" or the "Light" or "god". Non-intervention
is a common thread in many religious and spiritual lines of thought. I
can even go along with the "too tired" bit depending on your view of the
"Purpose". It seemed to me in Insomnia that King was talking different
levels but none of the levels were "eternal".
In regard to King, I think we are about to get a big dose of King's take
on religion and spirituality. It has started with Insomnia and the Green
Mile Series ... and, without offering any spoilers, it is the central
theme of his next work, Desperation. This was made clear in the review
Bev posted a while back. Desperation is a novel of "Sacred Horror" was
the way that reviewer put it.
I have no idea about the Regulators but I do have a theory about the
connection between the Regulators and Desperation that I will keep to
myself till we all have both of them. Or enough of us to have a
discussion about it anyway.
Stevie Canuck
--
Do you know how cruel your god can be?
How fantastically cruel?
Sometimes he makes us live.
Johnny Marinville
Kieron Dunbar
Once upon a time, The Jabberwock wrote thus:
>kind...also, it made no preparations for Its 'babies'. if It had perchance
>grown accustomed to our atmosphere...would Its babies be accustomed too? i
>don't think they would be.
It could have evolved that way, you never know...
kwaheri, Kieron
--
* Meeeow ! Call Spuddy on (01268) 515441 for FREE mail & Usenet access *
Kate Nepveu
: Dani_K wrote:
: (big snip)
: > I never bought any of the theories about the
: > Turtle being part of the Light, or a manifestation of The Purpose,
: > because the Turtle, whom the kids had counted on to be helpful,
: > wasn't helpful at all. He essentially told Bill that they were
: > all on their own, he was tired.
Didn't see original post, but here's my take on the Turtle: he's a
Guardian.
Kate
--
I, too, dislike it: there are things that are important beyond
all this fiddle.
--Marianne Moore, "Poetry"