Flagg Before "The Stand"
EroomTam
Has anyone given any thought to who or what Randall Flagg was before
events in The Stand took place? When we first meet him, his memory is
kind of foggy. However, we do know that his supernatural powers were new;
"Why else could he suddenly do magic?" Does anyone think Flagg was just a
normal -meaning non-supernatural; he was definitely one strange dude-
human that the devil picked to be his champion like Mother Abigal was
chosen? Or was he supernatural to begin with and was created to take over
after the flu hit?
Second question, is Charles Starkweather, a kid Flagg went to high school
with, the politician from The Dead Zone?
Finally, does anyone think it odd that Flagg is originally from Nebraska,
same as Mother Abigal?
-Eroom Tam
Eroo...@aol.com
web-server-account
EroomTam (eroo...@aol.com) wrote:
: Second question, is Charles Starkweather, a kid Flagg went to high school
: with, the politician from The Dead Zone?
No, Starkweather was a real-life person who killed a bunch of people
with a high powered rifle, if memory serves. He was someone that intrigued
King as a youth. Greg Stillson was the politician in DZ.
--
Bev Vincent
Houston, TX
HACKERMC
>Has anyone given any thought to who or what Randall Flagg was before
>events in The Stand took place?
One of my favorite topics! I agree with you. Flagg's memory is kind of
foggy about his life prior to the superflu epidemic. He thinks he was
born in the civil-rights strife of the early '60's. Flagg has a
supernatural element--he's human AND the Imp of Satan. I don't think his
supernatural dimension was known to him prior to the epidemic, and I
believe the devil hand-picked him as his champion against Mother Abigail.
As Mother Abigail is a conduit for miracles, Flagg is able to do "magic."
Mother Abigail says that Flagg is NOT the devil, but that he and the
devil shared council of old. Perhaps the superflu awakened his powers
and his own consciousness as a supernatural being.
>Second question, is Charles Starkweather, a kid Flagg went to high school
>with, the politician from The Dead Zone?
Charles Starkweather was a high school student in Nebraska in 1958 who
went on a killing spree with his girlfriend, Carol Ann Fugate (who was 14
at the time). Over a period of a week or two they murdered a dozen people
in Nebraska and Iowa before getting caught. Starkweather went to the
gallows. Fugate spent decades in prison and was finally released. The
issues in her case are interesting and relevant and I doubt that by
today's legal standards she would spend any time at all in prison. On a
personal note, my parents were driving to Manly, Iowa in the spring of
that year and were stopped by dozens of state troopers with their guns
drawn. Clearly they had been mistaken for Starkweather and Fugate.
>Finally, does anyone think it odd that Flagg is originally from Nebraska,
>same as Mother Abigal?
Yes, the choice of Nebraska is interesting. Why Nebraska? There's the
Children of the Corn, of course--the thing that walks between the rows.
SK is fond of literary allusion, mostly self-referential, but in this case
maybe not. The literary heritage of Nebraska is the great Willa Cather.
In her book Oh, Pioneers! the principal character has visions of a shining
being, a spirit of the land, perhaps, who lifts her up and takes away all
her bodily weariness. Just a thought.
--Mike
Hack...@aol.com
JUNSIX
But don't forget that Flagg was in EOTD, set in medieval times. Perhaps he
just goes dormant for a while--like a flu virus!
Victoria
web-server-account <w...@pcjfn.msc.com> wrote in article
<5etlbt$i...@uuneo.neosoft.com>...
> EroomTam (eroo...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : Second question, is Charles Starkweather, a kid Flagg went to high
school
> : with, the politician from The Dead Zone?
>
> No, Starkweather was a real-life person who killed a bunch of people
> with a high powered rifle, if memory serves. He was someone that
intrigued
> King as a youth. Greg Stillson was the politician in DZ.
>
> --
> Bev Vincent
> Houston, TX
>
Close, but no cigar. Starkweather was a kid in the fifties who was a major
James Dean wannabe - a slightly backwards teenager who was a refuse
collector. He had a girlfriend called Caril-Ann Fugate, who he loved, but
her parents tried to split them up. Worse than this to Charlie tho was the
fact that Fugate's ma and pa were mis-treating her (there is still debate
as to how true this is). So one day Charlie gets his gun, and in agreement
with Caril, shoots ma, pa and baby brother, before the two of them drove
off into the desert. On the way they shot a couple of other people -
including a (grown up) pal of Charlie's. In the end tho, they were
captured, tried, and found guilty. Starkweather got the chair, despite
legal attempts to get him off on diminished responsibility. Fugate, on the
other hand - still only fourteen or so, managed to escape the death
sentence by saying that it had all been Starkweather's idea and she was
effectively held captive - despite evidence that suggests she was just as
much in on it as her erstwhile boyfriend. Fugate was freed a while back,
but doesn't talk about it.
If all this sounds familiar, its because Fugate and Starkweather have been
used as a source for lots of films - Natural Born Killers, Kalifornia, even
True Romance. The best film to watch for their story, tho', is Badlands.
Alternatively, there is a book available called Born Bad, by Jack Sargent,
and published by Creation Books.
Vic
--
"That's right. We do pizzas and brain surgery. Hold still!"
HACKERMC
>But don't forget that Flagg was in EOTD, set in medieval times. Perhaps
he
>just goes dormant for a while--like a flu virus!
EOTD is set in an alternate universe--it's gotta be. Don't you think?
EroomTam
Yes, but there are "other worlds than these."
Flagg, with Thomas and Dennis in pursuit, do appear in DT2, but I've
always been of the opinion that Flagg in EOTD and Randall Flagg in The
Stand were not the same people. Flagg in EOTD knows his past and knows
how long he had been alive, unlike Randall Flagg in The Stand, who is
unsure of his own past when we first meet him.
However, a friend of mine did have an interesting idea that I have thought
about and expanded upon. She said that Flagg was possessed and the reason
he was confused was that part of his was still human, part was an ancient,
evil spirit. Could it be that Flagg (from EOTD) traveled, as Jake did,
after a death we do not know about, into our world as a spirit and entered
Randy Flagg? Randy himself says that is not his real name. Maybe he was
a weird guy with the initials RF, making names for himself across the
country, each pseudonym having the initials RF, while the spirit of Flagg
knew of the coming virus and began to assemble his plans (like Nadine's
ouija board experience). When the time was right, the spirit entered RF
and he adopted a new name; Flagg. Randall Flagg. But, as always with
Flagg, something went wrong and his plans fell through. Now, joined into
one being, RF travelled again, this time to Lud to meet Tick-Tock Man.
HACKERMC
EroomTam:
I like your speculation on Flagg.
>a friend of mine did have an interesting idea that I have thought
>about and expanded upon. She said that Flagg was possessed and the
reason
>he was confused was that part of his was still human, part was an
ancient,
>evil spirit.
I'd have to agree with your friend. I've been re-reading The Stand
(actually listening to the Books on Tape version) and when RF is banging
Nadine in the desert he says "Richard, my name is Richard." Now what the
heck does that mean? (Richard Speck? Richard Wagner? Richard III?)
But I like your conjecture of RF travelling. I haven't read the Dark
Tower series yet--it's on my shelf waiting for me to finish Desperation
and Rose Madder. Good thinking.
--Mike
Hack...@aol.com
EroomTam
>>Now, joined into
>>one being, RF travelled again, this time to Lud to meet Tick-Tock Man.
>There's just one little 'but':
>The end of the uncut Stand, where Flagg certainly didn't re-emerge in
>Lud, but in a (Polynesian?) island of (apparently) our continuum
Yes, but who knows when or where he popped up in that last bit of "The
Stand"? Maybe there's a polynesia in Midworld. Maybe he appeared there
centuries before he made it to Lud. We do know from the DT books that
time in our world and in Roland's are not connected.
-Eroom
Rudy Moore
In article <19970227000...@ladder02.news.aol.com> you wrote:
> Yes, but there are "other worlds than these."
> Flagg, with Thomas and Dennis in pursuit, do appear in DT2, but I've
> always been of the opinion that Flagg in EOTD and Randall Flagg in The
> Stand were not the same people. Flagg in EOTD knows his past and knows
> how long he had been alive, unlike Randall Flagg in The Stand, who is
> unsure of his own past when we first meet him.
Ahhh... Two things to say about that. First, Flagg was reading a very
special book of evil in EOTD. A book that drives one insane and yet
(presumably) gives one awesome powers. The Flagg in the Stand may be
a much later incarnation of the Flagg in the book. One where he's gone
insane, lost his memory, but been given huge powers. Perhaps EOTD
is start of where he's from...
The other thing is just an easy way to come back to one of my favorite
lines ever... If the above is true, that means that he formed sometime
in Roland's age, then had the adventures recounted in The Stand, and
then shows up again a hundred years or so after Roland's age in
The Wastlands. my favorite line: "Billy Pilgrim has become unstuck in
time." - and perhaps universes.
> However, a friend of mine did have an interesting idea that I have thought
.. snip ..
> one being, RF travelled again, this time to Lud to meet Tick-Tock Man.
Interesting idea - I wonder if King will ever wrap up this enigmatic
character. I hope not.
--
rudy.moore..............orn@cs.wisc.edu.............who.watches.the.watchers?
Jon Skeet
Rudy Moore <o...@cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
> > However, a friend of mine did have an interesting idea that I have thought
> .. snip ..
> > one being, RF travelled again, this time to Lud to meet Tick-Tock Man.
>
> Interesting idea - I wonder if King will ever wrap up this enigmatic
> character. I hope not.
I'm quite sure the character who met Ticky was Flagg. I suspect
we'll be seeing more of him as time goes by in DT... although I've a
suspicion it'll be mainly behind the scenes... I have an inkling
there'll never be a confrontation between Roland and Randall.
--
Jon Skeet
When 900 years old *you* reach, look as good *you* will not, hmm?
Yoda - http://yoda.trin.cam.ac.uk. Geek code:
d- s:- a-- C++ UL++ P+ L++ W+++ N++ w--- M-- t- 5 X+ tv b+++ D+ G h* r++
Lanthinel
Here's a few ideas and theories, and I'll admit my reasoning to link
it together is speculation.
Having just read EotD, and having read the first three in DT and the
Stand in general, here's my idea (also voiced in part by others here):
1) Flagg from EotD obviously escaped from that world or time or place
after being shot by Thomas.
2) Roland has encountered that Flagg and Thomas and Dennis (pg. 418
DotT, or Chp.13 in the Pusher). In Roland's world near the end of
Gilead's existence. This seems to be the same Flagg from EotD, but
more powerful. Roland himself witnessed Flagg "change a man who had
irritated him into a howling dog. He remembered that well enough."
Now, in EotD (pg. 76, chapter 23), our storyteller tells us
that most of our conceptions of magic are wrong, and that things like
shapechanging are so difficult to as be impossible and that Flagg had
never dared to attempt such a thing. However, Roland witnesses Flagg
change a man into a dog.
One of the posts in this thread mentioned the book by Alhazred
Flagg was reading, the one bound in human flesh. The Necronomicon was
written by (in HPL's mythos) Abdul Alhazred, and is often portrayed as
being bound in human flesh. EotD makes mention of the powerful spells
and such found within, and the madness that could steal one's mind
from reading too deeply of its depths.
3) Walter, the Man in Black, mentions the Ageless Stranger or
Maerlynn to Roland in The Gunslinger, and how the Ageless Stranger
serves a more powerful entity known as the Beast.
4) A man, obviously some version of Randall Flagg from the Stand,
appears to the Tick Tock Man in TWL and is obviously an RF. He is a
minion or guardian of the Dark Tower, and seeks to stop Roland.
Now, here's my idea:
The Flagg of EotD is the original Ageless Stranger, who was studying
ever more powerful magicks from the dark tome he possessed. When he
was "slain" in that world by Thomas, he was forced to give himself
over to a more powerful entity in order to survive....the Beast of the
Tower in my thinking. He disappears and pretty much becomes to the
Beast what Walter is to the Ageless Stranger--a minion and agent.
Remember that "death" appears to be one of the ways to travel the
worlds in this "multiverse" created by King...for Jake does much the
same thing in the DT series.
He does gain power in the bargain, as is evidenced by his
seemingly offhanded shapechanging of the man who "irritated" him in
Roland's world. However, he is also changed to a degree, perhaps
forced along by the "hand" of the Beast with selective memories. He
is an agent who works to destroy the White, or the good force of
civilization and order. Flagg had a strange hatred of the order and
prosperity of Dulaine in EotD, and Roland meets him in the fall of
Gilead...a beacon of hope and the White in his world.
Randall Flagg shows up in the Stand, in whatever incarnation
and after who knows how much time (forward or backward; or just
another level of the Tower as Blaine would say), working to make sure
that the White of our Earth falls utterly.
When Roland and his ka-tet are moving well along their path to
the DT (well, farther than one would have expected), the Beast makes
sure that Flagg finds his way to Roland's world again and to an agent
he can use...the Tick Tock Man.
Flagg is thus a powerful figure of evil, but he is also a pawn
in an even larger game. In trading his soul to survive Thomas and
Foe-Hammer in EotD, he has bound himself into eternal service for the
Dark, the Dark Tower, and the Beast.
Just a long theory, but see what you think.
Cesar Alejandro Lezama Delpino
HACKERMC (hack...@aol.com) wrote:
: >Finally, does anyone think it odd that Flagg is originally from Nebraska,
: >same as Mother Abigal?
Or that one of his aliases is "Richard Freemantle", the same
as one of Abagail's brothers (the one who "did hesh his mouth" before
saying that the weasel who bit Abagail was rabid).
LUE42HGG
Just some more evidence that Richard Fannin (DT3) is the same as Randall
Flagg (Stand)
Richard asks Andrew (tick tock) to say "My life for you", because, one of
his old aquaintances used to say it, and he ended up betraying him, this
being what the trash can man said, and did. Thus we have more evidence
that the are the same people.