rz circle: Nine Princes in Amber
bob sullivan
this question I'm about to pose is pretty lame, but I promise,
I'll get better as I warm up :)
In chapter 1, when the orderly comes to give Corwin his shot,
Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
cheers,
bob :)
bob sullivan
Charles Forts of this place will doubtless quote this
happening for many years."
Anybody got a clue who Charles Fort is?
bob
Roger Evans
bob sullivan wrote in message ...
Charles Fort was a self proclaimed "Intermediatist", one who
believes nothing is real and nothing is unreal. He was looking for accounts
of anything weird or mysterious which didn't fit with current scientific
theories. He collected accounts of frogs and other strange objects raining
from the sky, UFOs, ghosts, spontaneous human combustion, the stigmata,
psychic abilities, etc. He published four collections of weird tales and
anomalies during his lifetime: Book of the Damned (1919), New Lands (1923),
Lo! (1931), and Wild Talents (1932). His 'work' is carried on by The Charles
Fort Institute - http://www.forteana.org/ and by the Fortean Times here in
the U.K. - http://www.forteantimes.com/ - quite an entertaining read - my
wife and I occasionally buy a copy for train journies etc. :)
HTH
Roger.
--
Remove the cork to reply....
bob sullivan
> Charles Fort was a self proclaimed "Intermediatist", one who
> believes nothing is real and nothing is unreal. He was looking for accounts
> of anything weird or mysterious which didn't fit with current scientific
> theories. He collected accounts of frogs and other strange objects raining
> from the sky, UFOs, ghosts, spontaneous human combustion, the stigmata,
> psychic abilities, etc. He published four collections of weird tales and
> anomalies during his lifetime: Book of the Damned (1919), New Lands (1923),
> Lo! (1931), and Wild Talents (1932). His 'work' is carried on by The Charles
> Fort Institute - http://www.forteana.org/ and by the Fortean Times here in
> the U.K. - http://www.forteantimes.com/ - quite an entertaining read - my
> wife and I occasionally buy a copy for train journies etc. :)
Thanks, Roger! And you were worried you wouldn't have much
to contribute to the discussion... ;)
bob
m.a...@libr.canterbury.ac.nz
>Another question: in chapter 4, Random says to Corwin, "The
>Charles Forts of this place will doubtless quote this
>happening for many years."
>
>Anybody got a clue who Charles Fort is?
>
>bob
>
use his accounts to prove the existance of supernatural abilities/alien
intervention etc but he had an open mind on the cause of the phenomena.
Margaret
RavensZim
>From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>Date: 1/25/99 10:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.99012...@schultz.io.com>
Zelazny READS it as "Damn you!" in the audio cassettes
RavensZim
happenings?
bob sullivan
> >From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
> >In chapter 1, when the orderly comes to give Corwin his shot,
> >Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
> >What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
> >uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>
Yes, I guess 'damn you' is really kind of nicer. :)
bob
bob sullivan
> What is a Weimaraner dog? (Morganstern's eyes compared with eyes of
> one of them.)
Weimaraners are those dogs that William Wegman always photographs
in clothes and stuff...
bob
Chris Camfield
HAS anyone truly accounted for the conflicting comments Corwin makes
about the number of siblings? Does that Amber guide help? (From my
reading today I remember seeing three dead brothers being mentioned in
one place, and six in another!)
What is a Weimaraner dog? (Morganstern's eyes compared with eyes of
one of them.)
CC
Fionamber
>HAS anyone truly accounted for the conflicting comments Corwin makes
>about the number of siblings?
No
>Does that Amber guide help?
And no, not really.
> (From my
>reading today I remember seeing three dead brothers being mentioned in
>one place, and six in another!)
You're right, I think. I chalk it up to misrecollection on Corwin's part--after
all the first accounting is while he's still partly amnesiac--or perhaps even
Oberon wouldn't be quite sure how many sons he'd had over the millenia!
semper, fiona
--
Fiona of Amber
fion...@aol.com
Currently seeking a country to rule...
Tilman Bohn
RavensZim wrote on 26 Jan 1999 23:12:56 GMT:
> >Subject: rz circle: Nine Princes in Amber
> >From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
[...]
> >In chapter 1, when the orderly comes to give Corwin his shot,
> >Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
> >What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
> >uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
[...]
> Zelazny READS it as "Damn you!" in the audio cassettes
Well, that would seem to settle it. It is `fuck you.' (That's
what I, too, thought it was.)
--
Cheers, Tilman
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer,
You take one down, and pass it around,
Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.
bob sullivan
> > >Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
> > >What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
> > >uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>
> what I, too, thought it was.)
I think if someone had just kneed me in the nuts, the expletive
I'd use would not be 'damn you'...
> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
> Aleph-null bottles of beer,
> You take one down, and pass it around,
> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.
Brilliant .sig! :)
bob
Chris Camfield
>ab...@freenet.carleton.ca (Chris Camfield)
>>HAS anyone truly accounted for the conflicting comments Corwin makes
>>about the number of siblings?
>
>No
>
>>Does that Amber guide help?
>
>And no, not really.
>> (From my
>>reading today I remember seeing three dead brothers being mentioned in
>>one place, and six in another!)
>
>You're right, I think. I chalk it up to misrecollection on Corwin's part--after
>all the first accounting is while he's still partly amnesiac--or perhaps even
>Oberon wouldn't be quite sure how many sons he'd had over the millenia!
Hmm. I don't know if I buy the amnesiac excuse; if Corwin is supposed
to be telling his story to Merlin (at the end of The Courts of Chaos)
then he'd have gotten it sorted out. Of course at that time, he was
not in the clearest frame of mind - very tired, and Deirdre had just
been killed...
The weird thing is that I can only remember TWO dead brothers: Osric
and Finndo. But then in the second series we run into Delwin, so...?
CC
Jimmy A. Roberts-Miller
spake bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>:
>On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Chris Camfield wrote:
>> one of them.)
>
>in clothes and stuff...
An apt description, but not everyone knows who Wegman is!
A Weimaraner[sp?] is a medium-to-large dog, floppy ears, somewhat
hound-dog-like face, and dark grey in color.
Jammer Jim Roberts-Miller
--
Texas A&M University '89, '91
"Is there in truth no beauty?"
Loznik
suggested:
>On 27 Jan 1999, Tilman Bohn wrote:
>> > >From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>> > >In chapter 1, when the orderly comes to give Corwin his shot,
>> > >Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
>> > >What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
>> > >uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>>
>> Well, that would seem to settle it. It is `fuck you.' (That's
>> what I, too, thought it was.)
>
>I think if someone had just kneed me in the nuts, the expletive
>I'd use would not be 'damn you'...
>
More likely to be, "*BURP* Oh, no, not again!"
>> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
>> Aleph-null bottles of beer,
>> You take one down, and pass it around,
>> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.
>
>Brilliant .sig! :)
Seconded.
Loznik {:-)>
"All the lies, all the truth,
All the things that I offer you."
Tilman Bohn
Chris Camfield wrote on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:12:48 GMT:
[...]
> Hmm. I don't know if I buy the amnesiac excuse; if Corwin is supposed
> to be telling his story to Merlin (at the end of The Courts of Chaos)
> then he'd have gotten it sorted out.
[...]
But that's really a general problem with the first series,
don't you think? That's something that bothered me the first time
I read it: it seems that a lot of what Corwin recounts, he
wouldn't be telling the way he is _a posteriori_.
It has the distinct feel of RZ just adding to the plot as he
goes along. As if the resolution of the first person account in
CoC was a bit of an afterthought, or at least wasn't planned like
this in the beginning.
In fact, if he was telling all this to Oberon, there's no way
he would go into all the detail he does go into. I don't mean the
normal everyday detail, but things like describing the quality of
the trumps in the tarot deck he finds in Flora's library -- sure
ly he won't have to explain that kind of stuff to Oberon?
--
Cheers, Tilman
bob sullivan
> don't you think? That's something that bothered me the first time
> I read it: it seems that a lot of what Corwin recounts, he
> wouldn't be telling the way he is _a posteriori_.
> It has the distinct feel of RZ just adding to the plot as he
> goes along. As if the resolution of the first person account in
> CoC was a bit of an afterthought, or at least wasn't planned like
> this in the beginning.
The trouble is, Corwin makes a comment in NPiA that goes something
like, "But now, as I stand before the Courts of Chaos..."
But I agree that I don't think RZ had everything planned out when
he was writing NPiA.
> In fact, if he was telling all this to Oberon, there's no way
> he would go into all the detail he does go into. I don't mean the
> normal everyday detail, but things like describing the quality of
> the trumps in the tarot deck he finds in Flora's library -- sure
> ly he won't have to explain that kind of stuff to Oberon?
I thought he was telling Merlin...
bob
bob sullivan
> >>HAS anyone truly accounted for the conflicting comments Corwin makes
> >>about the number of siblings?
Can somebody help me out here? Where in the Chronicles of Amber
does Corwin mention the number of dead brothers as being more
than three?
Thanks,
bob
Tilman Bohn
bob sullivan wrote on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:12:29 -0600:
> I think if someone had just kneed me in the nuts, the expletive
> I'd use would not be 'damn you'...
Good point. ;-)
> Brilliant .sig! :)
Unfortunately, far, so far removed from reality!
rhaam_...@my-dejanews.com
bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com> wrote:
> Bear with me as I get geared up for this discussion... I realise
> this question I'm about to pose is pretty lame, but I promise,
> I'll get better as I warm up :)
>
> Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
> What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
> uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>
> bob :)
>
Does this qualify as a high-brow, philosophical discussion on semantics or
should we call it semiotics (ala Umberto Eco).
PS I'm sending you a personal e-mail with a great wav file on the use of that
dirty word that you mentioned above.
"The world's deadliest virus - is a hereditary trait."
Rhaam Basset, Institute of Life Perpetuation Sciences
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
RavensZim
>From: til...@gmx.de (Tilman Bohn)
>Date: 1/27/99 3:05 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <slrn7ausbl...@urizen.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>
>
>In message <36af103...@news.ncf.carleton.ca>,
>Chris Camfield wrote on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:12:48 GMT:
>
>[...]
>> Hmm. I don't know if I buy the amnesiac excuse; if Corwin is supposed
>> to be telling his story to Merlin (at the end of The Courts of Chaos)
>> then he'd have gotten it sorted out.
>[...]
>
>don't you think? That's something that bothered me the first time
>I read it: it seems that a lot of what Corwin recounts, he
>wouldn't be telling the way he is _a posteriori_.
>
> It has the distinct feel of RZ just adding to the plot as he
>goes along. As if the resolution of the first person account in
>CoC was a bit of an afterthought, or at least wasn't planned like
>this in the beginning.
>
>he would go into all the detail he does go into. I don't mean the
>normal everyday detail, but things like describing the quality of
>the trumps in the tarot deck he finds in Flora's library -- sure
>ly he won't have to explain that kind of stuff to Oberon?
>
>Cheers, Tilman
> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
> Aleph-null bottles of beer,
> You take one down, and pass it around,
> Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.
>
>
>
>
>
>
Actually, it was merlin he told the story to Also, Corwin states in 9 Princes
that he's full blood brother to Random, while he shares only the father with
his other siblings....he refutes this later...
Chris Camfield
wrote:
>On 27 Jan 1999, Tilman Bohn wrote:
>> > >From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>> > >In chapter 1, when the orderly comes to give Corwin his shot,
>> > >Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
>> > >What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
>> > >uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>>
>> Well, that would seem to settle it. It is `fuck you.' (That's
>> what I, too, thought it was.)
>
>I think if someone had just kneed me in the nuts, the expletive
>I'd use would not be 'damn you'...
Heh.
Remember, even on the tapes, Zelazny may have had limits on what he
could say.
CC
Chris Camfield
How many swords bearing portions of the Pattern ARE there?
The first one to spring to mind is, I'm sure, Corwin's Grayswandir.
In the second series Werewindle, Brand's blade, is mentioned.
BUT, when Corwin trumps to Bleys in Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin
mentions Bleys having a similar sword. So that's at least 3. If
Grayswandir and Werewindle are the Night and Day swords, what is
Bleys'?
And furthermore, when Corwin looks through Flora's trump, he describes
Eric as pictured with "a silvery saber". HMMMMM.
CC
ErikHolmes
>mention the number of dead brothers as >being more than three?
Corwin tells diffrent numbers at diffrent times in the books. In Nine Princes
of Amber he says:
"...There had been fifteen brothers and six were dead. There had been eight
sisters, and two were dead. Possibly four,"
(Pg. 38 in the ADRPG)
Later however, in The Guns of Avalon Corwin says, "The thirteen of us, plus two
brothers and a sister I knew who were now dead..."
(Pg. 146 in the ADRPG)
I think the latter is probably true and perhaps Corwin thought that others
such as Delwin, Sand, etc were dead but later found this to be untrue.
Also, in the same passage as above Corwin also says that:
"There had been a few others also, of whom I had heard, long before us, who
had not survived."
That's such a mean idea for a story. Think about it. We know that the current
children of Oberon are all less then 1500 years old according to Corwin in GoA,
but Oberon had whole other famlies before the current elders that died
centuries ago. What if one survived? If Benedict is as bad as he is after
living only 1500 years think of a elder thats been alive for 2500 or 5000?
Shoby187
Erik Holmes
ErikH...@aol.com
"I didn't spend all them years playing D&D,
and not learn a little somethin about courage"
Some Dork, The X-Files
Chris Camfield
wrote:
>> >ab...@freenet.carleton.ca (Chris Camfield)
>> >>HAS anyone truly accounted for the conflicting comments Corwin makes
>> >>about the number of siblings?
>
>Can somebody help me out here? Where in the Chronicles of Amber
>does Corwin mention the number of dead brothers as being more
>than three?
When he's walking the Pattern in Rebma. "I was a prince of Amber. It
was true. There had been fifteen brothers and six were dead. There
had been eight sisters, and two were dead, possibly four."
CC
bob sullivan
> Yet another Amber revelation/question:
> How many swords bearing portions of the Pattern ARE there?
Related question: since we know that Grayswandir and
Werewindle are actually spikards, is there ever any
mention of how many spikards there are in existence?
> BUT, when Corwin trumps to Bleys in Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin
> mentions Bleys having a similar sword. So that's at least 3. If
> Grayswandir and Werewindle are the Night and Day swords, what is
> Bleys'?
Maybe it's the 'solar eclipse' sword, i.e., the night-in-day
sword :)
bob
bob sullivan
<slap_to_the_forehead> Of course! And I just read those very lines just
the other day... Just didn't register... </slap_to_the_forehead>
Thanks!
bob
p.s. For what it's worth, the only other princes I remember
mention of, apart from the "nine princes" of the title of
the first novel, are Osric, Finndo, and Delwin.
No mention of the names of the two dead sisters, huh? Perhaps
Corwin thought Sand was dead...?
bob sullivan
> In article <Pine.BSF.4.02A.99012...@schultz.io.com>,
> bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com> wrote:
> > Corwin knees him in the groin, and the orderly curses at him.
> > What do you all think is the blanked-out curse that the orderly
> > uses? :) My money's on "f*ck you"...
>
> should we call it semiotics (ala Umberto Eco).
Nah, it just qualifies as me asking a silly question after having
had too much caffeine :)
bob :)
ErikHolmes
>
>Related question: since we know that Grayswandir and Werewindle are actually
>spikards, is there ever any mention of how >many spikards there are in
existence?
>
Later on Vialle does this weird spirit thing and is told that there are eleven
objects like Werewindel. Then, in the last Amber Story Corwin tells us that
Greyswandir and Werewindel used to be Spikards but that they were turned into
swords.
I also read a sci-fi magazine a long time ago an interview with RZ where he
told a few secrets about them. He said that when Dworkin drew the Pattern he
had some spikards with him to protect him from the forces of Chaos while he
drew the Pattern. He said that the spikards Dworkin had were changed by the
Pattern and turned into swords, their presense also caused the Pattern to be
reflected more then once creating the diffrent copys of the Pattern. (Which
explains Greyswandirs connection with Tir-Na Nog'th) He also said that the
Pattern put a portion of itself on the spikards to protect itself from them.
(Which is why Merlin get knocked out when he tried to use one vs. the Pattern
and why his arm feels like its been hit with a baseball bat when he tried to
use it vs. Erics Pattern ghost.)
SO, keeping this in mind I think this might make the most sense:
1) There were a total of 11 spikards in the beginning.
2) With the creation of the Pattern 2 were turned into swords. Giving us 9
rings and 2 Pattern blades.
3) The 2 spikards Dworkin used to protect himself while drawing the Pattern
were responsible for the creation of Rebma and Tir-Na Nog'th, Greyswandir for
Tir and Werewindel for Rebma.
>> BUT, when Corwin trumps to Bleys in >Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin
>> mentions Bleys having a similar sword. So that's at least 3. If
Grayswandir and >Werewindle are the Night and Day swords, >what is Bleys'?
Hard to say. IF Bleys DOES have another Pattern sword then that throws
everything above out of whack. HOWEVER. It has been suggested before that
Bleys's Pattern blade was simply Werewindel. Brand was Bleys and Fiona's
prisoner when Corwin saw Bleys's pattern sword and it could be that Bleys had
taken it from Brand while he was his prisoner.
bob sullivan
> I also read a sci-fi magazine a long time ago an interview with RZ where he
> told a few secrets about them. He said that when Dworkin drew the Pattern he
> had some spikards with him to protect him from the forces of Chaos while he
> drew the Pattern. He said that the spikards Dworkin had were changed by the
> Pattern and turned into swords, their presense also caused the Pattern to be
> reflected more then once creating the diffrent copys of the Pattern. (Which
> explains Greyswandirs connection with Tir-Na Nog'th) He also said that the
> Pattern put a portion of itself on the spikards to protect itself from them.
Wow, this sounds like a very informative interview... You wouldn't
happen to remember which magazine you read it in, would you?
Scott, does this one sound familiar from your collection?
cheers,
bob
Jimmy A. Roberts-Miller
>> How many swords bearing portions of the Pattern ARE there?
>
>Related question: since we know that Grayswandir and
>Werewindle are actually spikards, is there ever any
>mention of how many spikards there are in existence?
Where does say they are spikards?
Jammer jim Roberts-Miller -- who obviously needs to reread the 2nd series.
bob sullivan
> In article <Pine.BSF.4.02A.99012...@schultz.io.com>, thus
> spake bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>:
> >Werewindle are actually spikards, is there ever any
> >mention of how many spikards there are in existence?
>
> Where does say they are spikards?
> Jammer jim Roberts-Miller -- who obviously needs to reread the
> 2nd series.
Not necessarily... I don't think it's mentioned in the 2nd
series, though I may be wrong. I'm sure it's mentioned in
one of the post-_Prince of Chaos_ short stories, though.
bob
Morgan Lewis
I am definitely going to have to find those short stories somehow.
Quick question: since most of the stories are in Amberzines, what does
Amberzine *look* like? Is it glossy, like typical magazines, or does it
have a plain-paper cover like a lot of fanzines? (This'll help me know
where to look for copies.)
--
Morgan Lewis
m...@efn.org
mle...@gladstone.uoregon.edu
Tilman Bohn
bob sullivan wrote on Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:03:48 -0600:
[...]
> I thought he was telling Merlin...
It would seem so. Don't know why I messed up, especially as the
post I was following up to had it right... As I said, it's been a
while.
Tilman Bohn
RavensZim wrote on 28 Jan 1999 01:46:17 GMT:
[...]
> Actually, it was merlin he told the story to
Oops. Of course. It's been about ten years since I've read it,
which is one of the reasons I'm taking this opportunity to re-
read it. (I saw Bob's (was it?) note in rasf-written.) Sorry for
the blunder...
> Also, Corwin states in 9 Princes
> that he's full blood brother to Random, while he shares only the father with
> his other siblings....he refutes this later...
Do you mean this in support of the creating-the-plot-on-the-fly
theory?
Fionamber
>Related question: since we know that Grayswandir and
>Werewindle are actually spikards, is there ever any
>mention of how many spikards there are in existence?
Yes, in _The Salesman's Tale_ it is said that there are eleven--and Delwin and
Sand are their guardians.
semper, fiona
--
Fiona of Amber
fion...@aol.com
Currently seeking a country to rule...
RavensZim
"Jazz" approach..He had a rough outline of the story and characters, but he let
the storytelling sort of "happen."
RavensZim
>Subject: spikards/RZ interview (was: rz circle: Nine Princes in Amber)
>From: bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>Date: 1/28/99 11:35 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <Pine.BSF.4.02A.99012...@schultz.io.com>
Please let me know where you read this..i'd like to hunt a copy down also.....
RavensZim
here....Bob and scott have links to Phage on their web sites...Guys?
Chris Camfield
>>> How many swords bearing portions of the Pattern ARE there?
>>
>>Related question: since we know that Grayswandir and Werewindle are actually
>>spikards, is there ever any mention of how >many spikards there are in
>existence?
>>
> Well. In the Merlin books we are told by Bleys that there are Nine Spikards.
>Later on Vialle does this weird spirit thing and is told that there are eleven
>objects like Werewindel. Then, in the last Amber Story Corwin tells us that
>Greyswandir and Werewindel used to be Spikards but that they were turned into
>swords.
>
> I also read a sci-fi magazine a long time ago an interview with RZ where he
>told a few secrets about them. He said that when Dworkin drew the Pattern he
>had some spikards with him to protect him from the forces of Chaos while he
>drew the Pattern. He said that the spikards Dworkin had were changed by the
>Pattern and turned into swords, their presense also caused the Pattern to be
>reflected more then once creating the diffrent copys of the Pattern. (Which
>explains Greyswandirs connection with Tir-Na Nog'th) He also said that the
>Pattern put a portion of itself on the spikards to protect itself from them.
> (Which is why Merlin get knocked out when he tried to use one vs. the Pattern
>and why his arm feels like its been hit with a baseball bat when he tried to
>use it vs. Erics Pattern ghost.)
>
> SO, keeping this in mind I think this might make the most sense:
>1) There were a total of 11 spikards in the beginning.
>2) With the creation of the Pattern 2 were turned into swords. Giving us 9
>rings and 2 Pattern blades.
>3) The 2 spikards Dworkin used to protect himself while drawing the Pattern
>were responsible for the creation of Rebma and Tir-Na Nog'th, Greyswandir for
>Tir and Werewindel for Rebma.
>
>>> BUT, when Corwin trumps to Bleys in >Nine Princes in Amber, Corwin
>>> mentions Bleys having a similar sword. So that's at least 3. If
>Grayswandir and >Werewindle are the Night and Day swords, >what is Bleys'?
>
> Hard to say. IF Bleys DOES have another Pattern sword then that throws
>everything above out of whack. HOWEVER. It has been suggested before that
>Bleys's Pattern blade was simply Werewindel. Brand was Bleys and Fiona's
>prisoner when Corwin saw Bleys's pattern sword and it could be that Bleys had
>taken it from Brand while he was his prisoner.
I'd buy that but not the way you explain it. The *Trump* picture of
Bleys apparently depicted Bleys with the sword, because it's described
before Corwin made contact. Unless he was getting ahead of himself.
But in any case Werewindle (isn't it -le?) could have been Bleys'
originally and then given for some reason to Brand, after the Trumps
were drawn by Dworkin but long before the events of the series.
CC
Chris Camfield
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Chris Camfield wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:15:42 -0600, bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>> wrote:
>> >Can somebody help me out here? Where in the Chronicles of Amber
>> >does Corwin mention the number of dead brothers as being more
>> >than three?
>>
>> When he's walking the Pattern in Rebma. "I was a prince of Amber. It
>> was true. There had been fifteen brothers and six were dead. There
>> had been eight sisters, and two were dead, possibly four."
>
><slap_to_the_forehead> Of course! And I just read those very lines just
>the other day... Just didn't register... </slap_to_the_forehead>
Well, I was slapping myself on the forehead about all the details that
I was only picking up this reading. It's not like any of us (well, at
least I, and I presume you) haven't read the series half a dozen
times.
>p.s. For what it's worth, the only other princes I remember
>mention of, apart from the "nine princes" of the title of
>the first novel, are Osric, Finndo, and Delwin.
Yeah, ditto.
>No mention of the names of the two dead sisters, huh? Perhaps
>Corwin thought Sand was dead...?
Could well be.
CC
OldSquirrl
And eight sisters with two dead also leaves at least one living sister
unaccounted for, unless I'm somehow missing one here... Flora, Fiona, Deirdre,
Llewella, and Sand makes five. I suppose you could include Coral but there
doesn't seem to be any way Corwin would have known about her.
bob sullivan
Actually, I don't have any pages dedicated to RZ yet, though
at one point I did consider doing some. I think Norris has
a link to Phage Press from his RZ pages, though.
(After I saw Scott's and Norris's RZ pages, I thought,
geez, there's no way I can top this...) :)
bob
bob sullivan
Are there any other well-known 'jazz' writers, apart from
RZ, PK Dick, and Samuel Delany?
bob
bob sullivan
> I'd buy that but not the way you explain it. The *Trump* picture of
> Bleys apparently depicted Bleys with the sword, because it's described
> before Corwin made contact. Unless he was getting ahead of himself.
> But in any case Werewindle (isn't it -le?) could have been Bleys'
> originally and then given for some reason to Brand, after the Trumps
> were drawn by Dworkin but long before the events of the series.
I agree... It seems out of character for Bleys to want to
be immortalised on a Trump holding someone else's sword... :)
bob
bob sullivan
> And eight sisters with two dead also leaves at least one living sister
> unaccounted for, unless I'm somehow missing one here... Flora, Fiona,
> Deirdre,
> Llewella, and Sand makes five. I suppose you could include Coral but
> there
> doesn't seem to be any way Corwin would have known about her.
Not unless he happened to hear the rumors from her homeland
about her ancestry... ;)
bob
bob sullivan
> Oops. Of course. It's been about ten years since I've read it,
> which is one of the reasons I'm taking this opportunity to re-
> read it. (I saw Bob's (was it?) note in rasf-written.)
Hey, cool! I'm glad that post did some good and you joined us! :)
bob :)
bob sullivan
> I was only picking up this reading. It's not like any of us (well, at
> least I, and I presume you) haven't read the series half a dozen
> times.
Considering the way the discussion has flown back and forth
across the entire timeline of the series, I think we're
probably safe in assuming that a lot of us have read them
more than once, yes. :)
Geez, I just had a thought... I hope we're not spoiling it
for any people who haven't read these books before... :(
bob
Christopher Cunningham
>On 29 Jan 1999, RavensZim wrote:
>>Zelazny wrote a lot of the Amber books witha sort of
>> "Jazz" approach..He had a rough outline of the story and
>> characters, but he let the storytelling sort of "happen."
bob sullivan wrote in message ...
>Are there any other well-known 'jazz' writers, apart from
>RZ, PK Dick, and Samuel Delany?
steven brust wrote one that way: _to reign in hell_
RavensZim
are Spikards, with special powers on their own, but there could be many Pattern
"artifact" swords, created with the pattern as the basis for their
magics...much like Merlin's Ghostwheel or the look alike Grayswandir that
Corwin's ghost had carried......
Denis Bridoux
of unlikely events such as frog rains etc. A magazine called Fortean
Times continues his tradition. This is therefore a very apt quotation.
>Another question: in chapter 4, Random says to Corwin, "The
>Charles Forts of this place will doubtless quote this
>happening for many years."
>
>Anybody got a clue who Charles Fort is?
>
>bob
>
--
Denis Bridoux
bob sullivan
> Wonderful to see the newsgroup active, even though I'm just a rarely
> contributing lurker. :)
Oh, no, you don't get away with that modesty... :) You may lurk
here, but you made the NPiA computer game available to all of us
via your website. That fact alone puts you in my pantheon :)
bob :)
Norris Thomlinson
http://www.enol.com/~ferenczy/phage.html which has some email contacts
and info on products available. I've been meaning to put up a table
of contents for the issues I've got, but I've also been meaning to do
a dozen other things with my site which I've never gotten around to,
sigh...
Wonderful to see the newsgroup active, even though I'm just a rarely
contributing lurker. :)
Chris Camfield
wrote:
>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:56:01 -0600, bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Chris Camfield wrote:
>>> On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:15:42 -0600, bob sullivan <bsul...@io.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >Can somebody help me out here? Where in the Chronicles of Amber
>>> >does Corwin mention the number of dead brothers as being more
>>> >than three?
>>>
>>> When he's walking the Pattern in Rebma. "I was a prince of Amber. It
>>> was true. There had been fifteen brothers and six were dead. There
>>> had been eight sisters, and two were dead, possibly four."
>>
>><slap_to_the_forehead> Of course! And I just read those very lines just
>>the other day... Just didn't register... </slap_to_the_forehead>
>>
>>Thanks!
>>bob
>>
>>p.s. For what it's worth, the only other princes I remember
>>mention of, apart from the "nine princes" of the title of
>>the first novel, are Osric, Finndo, and Delwin.
>>
>>No mention of the names of the two dead sisters, huh? Perhaps
>>Corwin thought Sand was dead...?
>
>Amber was a very sexist court: The girls were generally not accorded
>the same honor as the boys and it was *assumed* that a male would
>succeed Oberon when and if he died.
But, colour me confused, what does this have to do with the number of
princesses of Amber either living or ever born?
The plain fact of the matter is, we are quite short in regards to the
names of all eight sisters.
CC
JCromerJr
In article <Pine.BSF.4.02A.99012...@schultz.io.com>, bob
sullivan <bsul...@io.com> writes:
>> drew the Pattern. He said that the spikards Dworkin had were changed by the
>> Pattern and turned into swords, their presense also caused the Pattern to
>> be reflected more then once creating the diffrent copys of the Pattern.
(Which
>> explains Greyswandirs connection with Tir-Na Nog'th) He also said that the
>> Pattern put a portion of itself on the spikards to protect itself from them.
eh? My brain must be drifting off into the sunset. I thought I'd read in one
of
the Chronicles that Corwin had forged Grayswandir on the steps of Tir-na
Nog'th.
--
Jacob Cromer Jr.
Morgan Lewis
Actually, Corwin says (In either SotU or THoO, not sure which), that
Grayswandir was forged on the steps of Tir-na Nog'th, but he doesn't say
*he* did it. I got the impression, somehow, originally, that Dworkin
had been the one to forge it. In all probability Corwin didn't know the
whole story at that time.
bob sullivan
> Actually, Corwin says (In either SotU or THoO, not sure which), that
> Grayswandir was forged on the steps of Tir-na Nog'th, but he doesn't say
> *he* did it. I got the impression, somehow, originally, that Dworkin
> had been the one to forge it. In all probability Corwin didn't know the
> whole story at that time.
I think that's a completely plausible hypothesis. If Dworkin
used the spikards to help form the Pattern and Amber, it's
certainly possible that he chose to forge two of those spikards
into Grayswandir and Werewindle.
bob
Kevin Stuart Dennis
bob sullivan wrote:
I think that's a completely plausible hypothesis. If Dworkin
used the spikards to help form the Pattern and Amber, it's
certainly possible that he chose to forge two of those spikards
into Grayswandir and Werewindle.bob
Just a thought... Why would RZ have put such an emphasis on the
spikards in Merlin's
story if he new that Merlin and Grayswandir would be together? Having
2 spikards
would almost be like making Merlin even more of a Power than he already
was? And
if Grayswandir was a spikard (or two) wouldn't Merlin have known it?
Kevin
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
/ /
//_--_//)
,/', /(_/~\_)
(-/ (-)
__ \)
/ /~ ,-/)=\
\)
o-o _/_/--------------------------------------------\
`=-' / They
burst their manacles and now wear the |
| name of freedom graven on a heavier chain. |
|
- Poland -
|
|
|
| KDe...@crg.ee.uct.ac.za
|
\______________________________________________/
bob sullivan
> bob sullivan wrote:
> > I think that's a completely plausible hypothesis. If Dworkin
> > used the spikards to help form the Pattern and Amber, it's
> > certainly possible that he chose to forge two of those spikards
> > into Grayswandir and Werewindle.
>
> Merlin's
> story if he new that Merlin and Grayswandir would be together? Having 2
> spikards
> would almost be like making Merlin even more of a Power than he already was?
> And
> if Grayswandir was a spikard (or two) wouldn't Merlin have known it?
I don't think anybody other than Dworkin and Zelazny (and maybe
Delwin) had any idea about how important the spikards were...
Seems to me they were an idea RZ was intending to flesh out more
in the next Amber book(s), which he didn't get to do... Along with
the idea of the sentience of Castle Amber.
bob
RavensZim
>From: Kevin Stuart Dennis <kde...@crg.ee.uct.ac.za>
>Date: 2/4/99 8:03 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36B99AAF...@crg.ee.uct.ac.za>
>
>
>--------------12845DD0C94FD28F9C21DBCB
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>
>
>bob sullivan wrote:
>
>> I think that's a completely plausible hypothesis. If Dworkin
>> used the spikards to help form the Pattern and Amber, it's
>> certainly possible that he chose to forge two of those spikards
>> into Grayswandir and Werewindle.
>>
>
>Just a thought... Why would RZ have put such an emphasis on the spikards in
>Merlin's
>story if he new that Merlin and Grayswandir would be together? Having 2
>spikards
>would almost be like making Merlin even more of a Power than he already was?
>And
>if Grayswandir was a spikard (or two) wouldn't Merlin have known it?
>
>
>--
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> / /
> //_--_//)
> ,/', /(_/~\_)
> (-/ (-) __ \)
> / /~ ,-/)=\ \)
> o-o _/_/--------------------------------------------\
> `=-' / They burst their manacles and now wear the |
> | name of freedom graven on a heavier chain. |
> | - Poland - |
> | |
> | KDe...@crg.ee.uct.ac.za |
> \_______________________________
Merlin actually only had a replica of Grayswandir..the original was in Corwin's
"chapel." He replaced the original with the replica and gave Corwin the real
Grayswandir....so he didn't have contact with the real thing for very
long......(The Pattern Ghost Corwin gave him the fake Grayswandir)
Dan Stewart
>Just a thought... Why would RZ have put such an emphasis on the spikards in
>Merlin's
>story if he new that Merlin and Grayswandir would be together? Having 2
>spikards
>would almost be like making Merlin even more of a Power than he already was?
>And
>if Grayswandir was a spikard (or two) wouldn't Merlin have known it?
>
This made me think of a quote from the short stories, which I had to track
down, of course. The quotes are from "Coming to a Cord", and goes something
like this:
Frakir(speaking mentally, naturally): Its not just a sword.
Luke/Rinaldo: What is it, then?
F: Long before there was Werewindle, it was the spikard Rawg.
and in a previous section:
F: On my recent journey with Merlin in the space between the shadows I had
gained the ability to converse at complex levels. My perceptions- which seem
quite different- also became more acute. They showed me nothing special about
Luke, the sorcerer, or the guisel, but Werewindle now burned of an entirely
different light. I realized then that it was not merely a blade.
And, in "The Salesman's Tale" you get this juicy tidbits:
Vialle: Name it.
Luke/Rinaldo: It was my father's sword, called Werewindle.
V: I know of it. This man, Luke, there is something about his blade and its
sister weapon that figures in all of this. I do not know their stories,
though.
Memory: Yes, they are connected.
V: How?
M: They were created in a similar fashion at near to the same time, and they
partake of the powers of which we have spoken. <referring to the 11 spikards>
There is at least one other good quote in the last story, whose name eludes
me. Perhaps if someone has it (I don't have it yet), they can scan it for the
quote that relates to Greyswandir.
All in all, based on the short stories, one would think that the two blades
are spikards in some fashion. Perhaps when Dworkin or Oberon, or whoever it
may have been collected the spikards, and sent them away, and Delwin and Sand
with them to guard(?), they kept two and gave them to the two brothers most
unlikely to ally, and most unlikely to want to break the other spikards out
and combine their powers. Purely conjecture on my part, but makes for a good
Amber DRP game... :-)
Dan.
Fionamber
(Hiya little brother... ;-) )
>There is at least one other good quote in the last story, whose name eludes
>me. Perhaps if someone has it (I don't have it yet), they can scan it for
>the
>quote that relates to Greyswandir.
It's called "Hall of Mirrors" and appeared in _Castle Fantastic_, edited by
John deChancie.
I quote:
Luke ... drew a familiar-looking golden blade. It emitted a high keening sound,
causing all of the candle flames in the vicinity to flicker. Then I knew it for
what it was--my brother Brand's blade, Werewindle.
...
I drew Grayswandir and it, too, ventured into fighting song--as I had only
heard it do on great battlefields in the past. The two tones joined together
into a devastating duet.
...
"They're brother and sister weapons, you know, with a certain magic in common.
In fact, they've a powerful secret in common," Oberon said. "Tell him, Corwin."
...
"Back in the early days of creation, the gods had a series of rings their
champions used in the stabilization of Shadow."
"I know of them," Luke said. "Merlin wears a spikard."
"Really," I said. "They each have the power to draw on many sources in many
shadows. They're all different."
"So Merlin said."
"Ours were turned into swords, and so they remain."
semper, fiona
--
Fiona of Amber
fion...@aol.com
Currently seeking a country to rule...
Robin Lim
Perhaps this is just an dRPGism, but I recall somewhere that Grayswandir,
Werewindle, and Bley's sword, as pattern swords, were supposed to be
representative of the beginning, the middle, and the end of the Pattern.
Specifically, I recall Grayswandir described as the beginning, Bley's as the
middle, and Werewindle and the end. Anyone else wants to confirm or deny?
Rob
bob sullivan
I seem to remember something about that too, now that you mention it...
But I can't remember if I read it in one of the DRPG books or not... :(
bob
ErikHolmes
>> Perhaps this is just an dRPGism, but I recall somewhere that Grayswandir,
>> Werewindle, and Bley's sword, as pattern swords, were supposed to be
>> representative of the beginning, the middle, and the end of the Pattern.
>> Specifically, I recall Grayswandir described as the beginning, Bley's as
>the
>> middle, and Werewindle and the end. Anyone else wants to confirm or deny?
Well. I don't remember if its mentioned at all in the first series but in
Knight of Shadows when Merlin first finds Werewindel He comments that
Werewindel has a section of the end of the Pattern on it while Greyswandir has
a portion of the beginnning.
Shoby187
Erik Holmes
ErikH...@aol.com
"I didn't spend all them years playing D&D,
and not learn a little somethin about courage"
Some Dork, The X-Files