The Ogg Family
Victoria Martin
On Tue, 15 Oct 1996, Ashild Naess wrote:
> In article <32618E...@rpc17.gl.umbc.edu>, "Stig O.T.D"
> <mha...@rpc17.gl.umbc.edu> wrote:
>
> > Anybody out there fancy working out Nanny Ogg's family tree.
> >
> > For starters we have
> >
> > our Jason, our Wane, our Darron, and our Sharron.
>
> And our Shawn, certainly... the heroic palace-guard...
Presumably Nanny Ogg was married to one of her cousins when most of the
kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
Ogg just kept her own name, especially since it would have been confusing
changing it every time she got married. On the other hand, Lancre is such
a small place that close-to-incestuous unions seem more than likely. I
could believe that Nanny was an Ogg on both sides all the way back to the
ancestor who invented Oggham.
Victoria
Peter Bleackley
In Slice House, Victoria Martin writes:
|>
|>
|> Presumably Nanny Ogg was married to one of her cousins when most of the
|> kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
|> can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
|> Ogg just kept her own name, especially since it would have been confusing
|> changing it every time she got married. On the other hand, Lancre is such
|> a small place that close-to-incestuous unions seem more than likely. I
|> could believe that Nanny was an Ogg on both sides all the way back to the
|> ancestor who invented Oggham.
|>
According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be expected to
take the family name anyway. Magrat would probably go on about the
ancestral earth mother principal, but I imagine the reasons for Nanny Ogg's
husbands taking her name are-
1) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with a witch.
2) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with an Ogg.
3) Nanny Ogg is both.
--
~PETE "QUANTUM" BLEACKLEY~
Daleks! Repent of your evil ways, and live in peace as plumbers!
X-Ray Astronomy Group University of Leicester
p...@star.le.ac.uk ~ Website coming soon
Victoria Martin
On 16 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
> According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
> matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be expected to
> take the family name anyway. Magrat would probably go on about the
> ancestral earth mother principal, but I imagine the reasons for Nanny Ogg's
> husbands taking her name are-
> 1) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with a witch.
> 2) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with an Ogg.
> 3) Nanny Ogg is both.
>
Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
never considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she marries and
most of the others mentioed eg. Black Aliss seem to be the traditional
sort. If witches are usually not of the marrying and reproducing kind,
then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protegee).
Victoria
Nettie
Victoria Martin wrote:
>
> On 16 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:[...]
> Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
> unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
> these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
> never considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she marries and
> most of the others mentioed eg. Black Aliss seem to be the traditional
> sort. If witches are usually not of the marrying and reproducing kind,
> then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
> passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protegee).
>
> Victoria
Wasn't it the women of the Ramtops in general that were matrilinear?
Or have I just lifted that from somewhere else?
Nettie
*All afproposals considered*
Victoria Martin
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Nettie wrote:
>
> Wasn't it the women of the Ramtops in general that were matrilinear?
> Or have I just lifted that from somewhere else?
>
> Nettie
If they are, then why is Esk Eskarina Smith? (her father's the smith, not
her mother).
Victoria
PS. Anyway, it was the *Companion* that said witches are matrilineal and
it can't be wrong it it's in the *Companion*.
Simon Callan
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961016...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk (Victoria Martin) wrote:
>
>
> On 16 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
> >
> > According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
> > matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be expected to
> > take the family name anyway. Magrat would probably go on about the
> > ancestral earth mother principal, but I imagine the reasons for Nanny Ogg's
> > husbands taking her name are-
> > 1) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with a witch.
> > 2) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with an Ogg.
> > 3) Nanny Ogg is both.
> >
> Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
> unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
> these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
> never considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she marries and
> most of the others mentioed eg. Black Aliss seem to be the traditional
> sort. If witches are usually not of the marrying and reproducing kind,
> then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
> passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protegee).
I thought the reason that Magrat left the coven was that she (at least
in theory) is now neither a maiden, mother or crone. I got the feeling
that nanny Ogg is expecting her to return to being a witch in a year or
so's time, when nature takes its course.
Also, isn't the maiden, mother, crone sequence the natural order of
development for a witch? In which case, Granny Weatherwax has skipped
from stage 1 to stage 3, missing the second stage, while still being
suitable for stage 1.
This could be part of the reason why she is such a powerfull witch.
Simon
--
... FANATIC: one enthusastic about something you don't care about.
Stephen Judd
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.96101...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Nettie wrote:
>
>>
>> Wasn't it the women of the Ramtops in general that were matrilinear?
>> Or have I just lifted that from somewhere else?
>>
>> Nettie
>
>If they are, then why is Esk Eskarina Smith? (her father's the smith, not
>her mother).
>
>Victoria
I reckon you'd find that the Ramptops had only recently switched to fixed
surnames. In fact, many Lancrites don't have them at all: witness Carter
the Baker and co.
Also, you mustn't confuse matriarchal with matrilinear. Eg, Judaism is
matrilinear, in the sense that halachically only the children of Jewish
mothers are Jews, but ostensibly at least, Judaism is patriarchal. Perhaps
Eskarina's family are patrilineal but matriarchal.
Surnames are really a quite modern invention, designed to aid tax
collecting. I wouldn't pay much heed to them if I were you...
Stephen
PS: it could be time for a big *I* post on the origin and function of
surnames generally, but someone else is goin to have to do it. I have to
go and help someone who is running out memory now.
PPS: At least, she says she's running out of memory. I think it's her
computer, personally.
--
"I think you've said the opposite of | Stephen Judd, School of Education,
what you mean. Assuming that is the | University of Waikato, New Zealand.
case, I must disagree, strongly." | <http://poet.soe.waikato.ac.nz/>
(Found on sci.lang) | for my PGP key.
Victoria Martin
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Simon Callan wrote:
>
>
> Also, isn't the maiden, mother, crone sequence the natural order of
> development for a witch? In which case, Granny Weatherwax has skipped
> from stage 1 to stage 3, missing the second stage, while still being
> suitable for stage 1.
>
> This could be part of the reason why she is such a powerfull witch.
>
Aha, you obviously missed my post a few days back about the function of
the scene with Granny and the baby in M! If anyone's interested, I'll
repost it, but it was met at the time with such crashing silence that i
assumed everyone found it terminally dull.
Victoria
Mort
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Victoria Martin wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Nettie wrote:
>
> > Wasn't it the women of the Ramtops in general that were matrilinear?
> > Or have I just lifted that from somewhere else?
>
> If they are, then why is Esk Eskarina Smith? (her father's the smith, not
> her mother).
Yes, her father is the *smith* not nessesarily the Smith. Jason(?) Ogg is
a smith, but he hasn't changed his surname... and don't forget the Lords
and Ladies lot [1]
> PS. Anyway, it was the *Companion* that said witches are matrilineal and
> it can't be wrong it it's in the *Companion*.
I wouldn't know, I've never read it...
<screams, and runs for cover...>
Paul
/---------------------+--------------------------------+--------------------\
/ Paul Mabbs : Account | Frankly, I've got 3 DTP's, and | pj...@le.ac.uk \
\ sharing with Mr Hyde | no Patience with any of them | /
\---------------------+--------------------------------+--------------------/
[1] I can't remember their names, but it was something like Thatcher the
Weaver, Weaver the Baker, Baker the Smith, and Smith the Thatcher...
Victoria Martin
On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Stephen Judd wrote:
> >
> >If they are, then why is Esk Eskarina Smith? (her father's the smith, not
> >her mother).
> >
> >Victoria
>
>
> Also, you mustn't confuse matriarchal with matrilinear. Eg, Judaism is
> matrilinear, in the sense that halachically only the children of Jewish
> mothers are Jews, but ostensibly at least, Judaism is patriarchal. Perhaps
> Eskarina's family are patrilineal but matriarchal.
>
It doesn't seem very matriarchal. Ostensibly at least it's Esk's dad who
makes all the decisions. Her mother hardly gets a look in. The DW in
general seems pretty patriarchal, in spit of notable local exceptions
like the witches.
Victoria
James Wilkinson
Peter Bleackley wrote:
> According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
> matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be
> expected to take the family name anyway.
So, surely, the Mr. Oggs (why do I suspect Nanny Ogg has had about ten
husbands?) would have taken the Ogg name because they were marrying a
witch, and so the children would have been Oggs. But the children aren't
witches, so there's no reason for them not to revert to normal
patrilinear nomenclature. This would make the children of Nanny Ogg's
sons also Oggs.
Yes, I realise I'm assuming a fair bit about Ramtops social structure -
it's just that the Discworld is remarkably Earth-like, occasionally.
James.
who just got rid of his .sig because people were getting confused...
Victoria Martin
On Thu, 17 Oct 1996, Mort wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Victoria Martin wrote:
>
> > If they are, then why is Esk Eskarina Smith? (her father's the smith, not
> > her mother).
>
> Yes, her father is the *smith* not nessesarily the Smith. Jason(?) Ogg is
> a smith, but he hasn't changed his surname... and don't forget the Lords
> and Ladies lot [1]
Yeah, but that surely suggests that surnames origintaed as professions
rather than as, eg. first names of parents.
>
> > PS. Anyway, it was the *Companion* that said witches are matrilineal and
> > it can't be wrong it it's in the *Companion*.
>
> I wouldn't know, I've never read it...
>
> <screams, and runs for cover...>
I wouldn't worry. Some people are as likely to buy you a drink for saying
that as they are to lob something at you.
Victoria
Peter Bleackley
In Lancre, Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
|> It doesn't seem very matriarchal. Ostensibly at least it's Esk's dad who
|> makes all the decisions. Her mother hardly gets a look in. The DW in
|> general seems pretty patriarchal, in spit of notable local exceptions
|> like the witches.
|>
Witches are meant to be the exception to the rules. That's one of the most
important things about being a witch. Witches are definately matriarchal,
whether they're married, or have children, or not, hence their use of
"Granny", "Nanny" and other such titles. Being matriliear is an extension
of that, and is also a sign of their power- remember that Nanny Ogg regards
royalty as "Almost as important as witches." Most ordinary women in the
Ramtops would take their husbands' names, but nobody in their right mind
treats witches as ordinary. Most women would be called Mrs. or Miss, rather
than Mistress, which is the preserve of witches.
I also remember that both the Weatherwax and Ogg families have long
associations with magic, and that neither Granny or Nanny is the first
witch in their families. Possibly their mothers were witches as well, but
according to the companion, witches don't take their own daughters as
pupils.
Nanny Ogg's first husband, Jason's father, was a smith, and Jason inherited
his father's forge, and the power and the bargain that go with it. Because
of the association of smiths with magic, a smith, and especially the smith
of the Lancre forge, would be considered a suitable husband for a witch.
David Mc Auley
In <545iac$b...@falcon.le.ac.uk> p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk (Peter Bleackley) writes:
>Nanny Ogg's first husband, Jason's father, was a smith, and Jason inherited
>his father's forge, and the power and the bargain that go with it. Because
>of the association of smiths with magic, a smith, and especially the smith
>of the Lancre forge, would be considered a suitable husband for a witch.
Well ALMOST suitable. ;)
David Mc Auley
>Yes, I realise I'm assuming a fair bit about Ramtops social structure -
>it's just that the Discworld is remarkably Earth-like, occasionally.
Not to mention making assumptions about what Ms. Ogg would be like as a
mother-in-law. ;)
Helen Highwater
In article <32662F...@exeter.ac.uk>
J.P.Wi...@exeter.ac.uk "James Wilkinson" writes:
> Peter Bleackley wrote:
> > According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
> > matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be
> > expected to take the family name anyway.
>
> So, surely, the Mr. Oggs (why do I suspect Nanny Ogg has had about ten
> husbands?) would have taken the Ogg name because they were marrying a
snip.
She may have had ten husbands, but only three of them were her own:)
Albert, Winston and Sobriety Ogg according to DWC, although I only
recall Sobriety being mentioned by name, in L&L.
--
Helen Highwater
"I think I may be able to metabolise alcohol".(RM)
Sander van Malssen
ste...@waikato.ac.nz writes:
> I reckon you'd find that the Ramptops had only recently switched to fixed
> surnames. In fact, many Lancrites don't have them at all: witness Carter
> the Baker and co.
But Carter the Baker does have a fixed surname! Otherwise he'd just be
Bestiality the Baker, right?
Sander
--
Sander van Malssen -- s...@kozmix.ow.nl -- http://www.cistron.nl/~svm/
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca
sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk writes:
>kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
>can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
does.
Wherever it bloody well wants to.
Archangel
;elsevier.co.uk>
Organization: University of New England, NSW, Australia
Distribution:
: Victoria Martin wrote:
: >
: > On 16 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:[...]
: > Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
: > unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
: > these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
: > never considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she marries and
: > most of the others mentioed eg. Black Aliss seem to be the traditional
: > sort. If witches are usually not of the marrying and reproducing kind,
: > then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
: > passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protegee).
: >
: > Victoria
As I recall, the three types of witches are the maiden, the mother and...
the other one. These _were_ Magrat, Nanny and Granny respectively. Nanny
Ogg is by no means the exception. The only reason Magrat 'gave up'
witching was because.. well.. she no longer counts as a maiden.
Probably. She no longer fits into the coven. For at the very least, nine
months. That was the whole reason behind the search for Perdita in
Maskerade.
Who says Black Aliss was never married? From what I could gather from WA,
Aliss was sort of sucked into the same trap as Granny's sister[1]. ie She
was obsessed with stories. There were quite a few stories where powerful
witches married kings. There is no direct mention of it, but it's
possible. The same could count for alot of the witches. Just because
husbands/offspring aren't mentioned doesn't mean that they don't exist.
The witch is the important part of _any_ relationship. Things like
husbands and children are just sidelines.
TTFN,
Archangel
[1] Damn! Can't seem to be able to remember her name.
--
John W Bornmann
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961017...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
I saw your post. I haven't read Maskerade, but it does seem to make sense.
Of course, Granny was already explicitly (implicitly?) the Mother by virtue
of her being the middle aged one. . . Magrat, Granny, Nanny-Maiden, Mother,
Crone.
And there was that scene in L&L, with Pewsey Ogg, where Granny acts motherly
-ack- spoiler, I'll stop now.
Anyways, you're post was good, but I don't remember there being anything to
follow up with, despite: I agree, or Yeah. (which isn't proper netiquette :)
So yeah, I think that's all I have to say.
Angstboy in (the) Pitt
the waltzing fiend who is getting real upset at American Bookstores
--
Step we gaily on we go, / Angels up high, cut us loose, |
Heel for heel and toe for toe, / Don't ask why, hand me my wings, |
Arm in arm and row and row, / And I'll fly... |
All for Mhari's wedding. / -Contagion, or Low Pop Suicide, depending |
P G Jones
Victoria Martin wrote:
> Aha, you obviously missed my post a few days back about the function of
> the scene with Granny and the baby in M! If anyone's interested, I'll
> repost it, but it was met at the time with such crashing silence that i
> assumed everyone found it terminally dull.
>
> Victoria
My newsreader found it terminally dull, not me. I never saw it!
So, what is the function of the scene with Granny and the baby in M?
< turns around to talk to the assembled masses >
BTW [1], I never introduced myself when I arrived. My name is Paul,
although what people call me is often very different. It's a hard life
being a student, and I've been one for the majority of a decade now....
but I've only got one year to go (then I'll have to start paying for
this drivel, oops, service).
[1] My first legitimate use of a TLA
--
History is becoming a thing of the past.
Matthew Bloch
In article <845587...@drutt.demon.co.uk>
hel...@drutt.demon.co.uk (Helen Highwater) wrote:
...but she's still pipped by Lunie :-)
--
Matthew http://homepages.enterprise.net/mattbee
'And these should be the best days of our lives,
Life! It's not what I thought it was...'
Michelena Riosa
In article
<Pine.OSF.3.91.961016...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk says...
>Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in
>general unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the
> great exception to these norms. After all,
>Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly never
considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she
> marries andmost of the others mentioed eg Black Aliss .
>seem to be the traditional sort. If witches are usually not of
>the marrying and reproducing kind, then how can they be
>matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
>passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protetgee).
Throughout history, the local witch has been of all sorts,
married, mother, childless etc. It also should be remembered, that
there were times when having children without being married was
not a crime. Witches were generally thoulght to be the keepers of
the local histories, and also the village healer, and as such, it
would be natural to choose a woman (less risk of death in hunting
or war, able to know more about childbirth) and a non-breeding one
at that (death in childbirth being a very great risk).
Pratchetts Witches, by his own writing follow the "Maiden, Mother
Crone" symbology, which refers to the phases of the moon and
countless female trinities in various cultures.
HTH
MIchelena
--
Michelena Riosa
mri...@visgen.com
"The complicated bits are okay,
you just keep distracting me from the simple bits."
John Fouhy
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961016...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>,
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> Presumably Nanny Ogg was married to one of her cousins when most of the
(this may have been said..)
The name 'Ogg' passes through both female and male lines - otherwise you
get some son-in-law having to explain to Nanny in great detail why her
surname is not good enough for him. ;-)
(to quote TDC: Witches are matrilinear and in any case a man would be
expected to accept the family name when marrying into such an ancient
lineage as the Oggs)
--
\\\\\ John Fouhy, Wellington, New Zealand _o_ jfo...@actrix.gen.nz \,
\\\\\\\__o Student of Wellington College ($) Fido: 3:771/160.43 <>
\\\\\\\\'/ 58% afpure | De Chelonian Mobile.. " " '73 | NHPure: 82 ./,/`
These are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others. - GM /_/`
John Fouhy
In article <547c1i$q...@grivel.une.edu.au>,
Archangel <swi...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
> possible. The same could count for alot of the witches. Just because
> husbands/offspring aren't mentioned doesn't mean that they don't exist.
Granny never married.
Don't have a quote handy, but L&L, while I don't think it states it
outright, makes it pretty clear. Esp. consider the Unicorn episode.
Allan Third
In article <Pine.OSF.3.91.961016...@ermine.ox.ac.uk>, Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> says:
>
>
>Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
>unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
>these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
>then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
But surely, in order to satisfy the 'maiden, mother, crone' thing, quite a few witches _must_
have been of the marrying and reproducing kind. It says somewhere in Maskerade that these three
groups first became traditonal because they included every woman, except for about 9 months, or
something like that. Aren't witches supposed to represent the 'archetypes of womanhood' type of
thing? Sexist, perhaps, by modern standards, but then, I can't really picture Granny Weatherwax
as a victim of sexism - it just wouldn't happen. :-)
P.S. This is my 1st post. Hi everybody!
Dick Eney
Allan Third <9607...@student.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>But surely, in order to satisfy the 'maiden, mother, crone' thing, quite
a few witches _must_
>have been of the marrying and reproducing kind. It says somewhere in
Maskerade that these three
>groups first became traditonal because they included every woman, except
for about 9 months, or
>something like that. Aren't witches supposed to represent the 'archetypes
of womanhood' type of
>thing? Sexist, perhaps, by modern standards, but then, I can't really
picture Granny Weatherwax
>as a victim of sexism - it just wouldn't happen. :-)
>
>P.S. This is my 1st post. Hi everybody!
That's how I remember it. Hi, Allan. Welcome to afp. BTW, if you
shorten your line length, your posts won't look like that and you won't
get so many comments from fans of neat line lengths (f.o.n.l.l.?).
=Tamar (sharing account dick...@access.digex.net)
--
"It can't be software incompatibility. The Chant of the
Trodden Spiral was designed for concentric circles."
- Terry Pratchett, The Light Fantastic
Sebastian Vielhauer
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>Presumably Nanny Ogg was married to one of her cousins when most of the
>kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
>can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
>Ogg just kept her own name, especially since it would have been confusing
>changing it every time she got married. On the other hand, Lancre is such
>a small place that close-to-incestuous unions seem more than likely. I
>could believe that Nanny was an Ogg on both sides all the way back to the
>ancestor who invented Oggham.
In the region I grew up (South Westphalia[1]), there is yet another
way of inheriting a surname. Houses often were named after the family
that built or owned them (e.g. "Schultes Hof") and this name
("Schulte") often was used for the residents of the house a long time
after the last real "Schulte" had died.
Maybe the Lancrians had a similar tradition and everyone living in a
"Ogg" place got this name automatically.
Sebastian
[1] A place with many parallels to Lancre: it is a rather
out-of-the-way region with lots of strange habits. And village
gossip is the most important source of information. But, alas,
no witches.
-- -- -- --Sebastia...@public.uni-hamburg.de-- -- -- --
Manche meinen, lechts und rinks
Koenne man nicht velwechsern.
WERCH EIN ILLTUM! Ernst Jandl
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca
jfo...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz writes:
>Don't have a quote handy, but L&L, while I don't think it states it
>outright, makes it pretty clear. Esp. consider the Unicorn episode.
Ogg put it. I think her history must have at least as many interesting
trousery bits as everyone else's.
Muse
In article <547c1i$q...@grivel.une.edu.au>, swi...@metz.une.edu.au
uttered sagely...
>
>[1] Damn! Can't seem to be able to remember her name.
Lilith,
Eagerly awaiting the return of Magrat the Witchqueen.
--
Live long and be preposterous.
Say good night Gracie....
Alan Bird
could kick one without breaking a foot. Any others?
--
Alan Bird Inventor & Sole Consumer of After-8 Mince
MELANIE TOM
On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Victoria Martin wrote:
> On 16 Oct 1996, Peter Bleackley wrote:
> >
> > According to the Discworld Companion, witches are traditionally
> > matrilinear, and anybody marrying into the Ogg family would be expected to
> > ancestral earth mother principal, but I imagine the reasons for Nanny Ogg's
> > husbands taking her name are-
> > 1) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with a witch.
> > 2) Nobody with any sense wants to argue with an Ogg.
> > 3) Nanny Ogg is both.
> >
> Do i detect an inconsistency here? I thought witches were in general
> unmarried and childless and that Nanny Ogg was the great exception to
> these norms. After all, Granny is a traditional witch and she's certainly
> never considered marrying, Magrat gives up witching after she marries and
> most of the others mentioed eg. Black Aliss seem to be the traditional
> sort. If witches are usually not of the marrying and reproducing kind,
> then how can they be matrilinear? (except in the metaphorical sense of
> passing on their wisdom and their cottage to their protegee).
>
I think a lot of you are missing the point. The reason that Magret gave
up witching was not that she was getting married, it was that she was
going to be a queen. Now sure alot of witches also manage to be queens
but the were always witches first and Queens second. I get the impression
that Magrat is very serious about her resposibilities, so she sort of gave
up the coven and took up Lancre. Actually as far as I remember she didn't
actually give up witching she just stopped being part of the coven, which
she started anyway.
Who, me?
-I've never even seen it.
Alan Bird
<the last time I tried to send this my poster dropped everything except
a rather enigmatic last line. Here we go again.>
In article <54b8cs$g...@rzsun02.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>, Sebastian Vielhauer
<Sebastian...@public.uni-hamburg.de> writes
<snip>
>In the region I grew up (South Westphalia[1]),
<snip>
>[1] A place with many parallels to Lancre: it is a rather
> out-of-the-way region with lots of strange habits. And village
> gossip is the most important source of information. But, alas,
> no witches.
>
I once lived in this area, in Munster. A lovely city which has a fine
cage hanging from a church tower (you don't want to know why) and wild
rabbits living in the city centre.
My German friends told me that the nickname for people from the area was
Mauer (wall) men. This was on account of the fact that if you bent one
over, pointed him at a wall, kicked him smartly up the bum, and his head
subsequently crashed right through the wall, then he was a genuine
Westphalian.
I suspect this makes Trolls Westphalians, if anyone could kick one up
the arse without breaking a foot.
Alan Bird
In article <vZOnEWA5...@jsbach.demon.co.uk>, Alan Bird
<alan...@jsbach.demon.co.uk> writes
>could kick one without breaking a foot. Any others?
No I didn't. Well, I did, but I said a bit more as well. My own bloody
newsreader is censoring my outgoing posts. There's gratitude for you.
I've reposted the original (long past its sell by date, but I'm damned
if I'm going to let the system beat me) and given a stern wigging to
Turnpike.
Lethargic Man
bl
A long time ago, on a Usenet far, far away, Matthew Skala scribed:
> sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk writes: ^
> > kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
> > can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
>
> does.
>
> Wherever it bloody well wants to.
Personally I think it's like the Queen tapes in GO - any family left
in Lancre for a sufficiently long time spontaneously becomes an Ogg family...
Love, hugs and a collection of coloured paperclips
found down behind the photocopier upon attempting to
hoover the carpet;
Mchl Grnt
---------IN--MEMORIAM--PHOENICIS.CANTABRIGENSIS.ACADEMIAE.UK------*Whelk!*------
"Don't look behind you; the lemmings are catching up."=8-0| Risus Sardonicus :-]
Let him who has taken the Plunge remember to return it by | (Michael S. Grant)
Thursday. | msg...@cee.hw.ac.uk
----------< http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~msgrant/ >---------------------------------
Paul E. Jamison
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
So much for the notion that virginity and adeptness in magic go hand
in hand. I don't believe the Multiverse can be *that* cruel, but from
what I've seen, you never know...
"When correctly viewed,
Everything is lewd.
(I could tell you things about Peter Pan,
And the Wizard of Oz, there's a dirty old man!)"
- Tom Lehrer
Archangel
John Fouhy (jfo...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
: In article <547c1i$q...@grivel.une.edu.au>,
: Archangel <swi...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
: > possible. The same could count for alot of the witches. Just because
: > husbands/offspring aren't mentioned doesn't mean that they don't exist.
:
: Granny never married.
: Don't have a quote handy, but L&L, while I don't think it states it
: outright, makes it pretty clear. Esp. consider the Unicorn episode.
I didn't mean Granny. I sorta took it for granted that everyone knew _she_
didn't ever marry. I was just making the point that just because husbands
of *other* witches weren't mentioned, doesn't mean that they don't exist.
Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Archangel.
--
John D. Owen
Sebastian Vielhauer wrote:
>
> [1] A place with many parallels to Lancre: it is a rather
> out-of-the-way region with lots of strange habits. And village
> gossip is the most important source of information. But, alas,
> no witches.
How would you know if there were witches, Sebastian? Surely they'd keep
themselves pretty quiet nowadays, for fear of being trampled underfoot
by Pratchett fans? Look closer: are there any single old ladies around
who everyone treats with more than usual respect? Are there strange
lowflying objects zipping about after dark with no running lights on? Do
you sometimes feel constrained not to go to a particular place just
outside the village on particular nights? Are there strange flickering
lights about on such nights? You've got to look for the subtle signs of
Westphalian Weatherwax or Ogg (does the local in serve bananana dakiris,
for example?) You don't really think Pterry makes all these stories up,
do you?
JDO (exits, looking over his shoulder)
John Fouhy
In article <54h7ae$5...@news.idt.net>, Paul E. Jamison <pau...@dtc.net> wrote:
> So much for the notion that virginity and adeptness in magic go hand
> in hand. I don't believe the Multiverse can be *that* cruel, but from
> what I've seen, you never know...
It could be so.. But I get the impression you have cause and effect the
wrong way round.. 'Twould seem more likely to me that adeptness in magic
would tend to cause lack of loss of virginity..
Peter Bleackley
In Lancre, Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca writes:
|> jfo...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz writes:
|> >Don't have a quote handy, but L&L, while I don't think it states it
|> >outright, makes it pretty clear. Esp. consider the Unicorn episode.
|>
|> Ogg put it. I think her history must have at least as many interesting
|> trousery bits as everyone else's.
No, definately not. When Granny tames the Unicorn, Nanny says that it's
all to do with having the right qualifications, nothing to do with
witchcraft, and that she couldn't have done it. She also tells Ridcully,
"Esme always was a faster runner than you. She could outrun every man in
the village."
The qualification necessary to tame a unicorn is virginity. "I could hold
this with a gossamer, Gytha Ogg! With a gossamer!" Traditionally, it
should really have been Magrat's job, but Granny would, in normal
circumstances, be the first one to try taming a unicorn anyway.
--
~PETE "QUANTUM" BLEACKLEY~
Daleks! Repent of your evil ways, and live in peace as plumbers!
X-Ray Astronomy Group University of Leicester
p...@star.le.ac.uk ~ Website coming soon
John Francis
Lethargic Man wrote:
>
> Personally I think it's like the Queen tapes in GO - any family left
> in Lancre for a sufficiently long time spontaneously becomes an Ogg family...
Well that's certainly true for cats ...
John Wilkins
In article <DzME0...@cee.hw.ac.uk>, Lethargic Man <msg...@cee.hw.ac.uk>
wrote:
| bl
|A long time ago, on a Usenet far, far away, Matthew Skala scribed:
|> sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk writes: ^
|> > kids were born - or does the name Ogg pass through the female line? No,
|> > can't be, because isn't Pusey Ogg the son of one of her sons? Maybe Nanny
|>
|> The name "Ogg" passes in the same direction that a 400-pound orangutan
|> does.
|>
|> Wherever it bloody well wants to.
|
|Personally I think it's like the Queen tapes in GO - any family left
|in Lancre for a sufficiently long time spontaneously becomes an Ogg family...
It's not exactly spontaneous generation... More a case of spontaneous
seduction, I would warrant. It helps that "Ogg" is a dominant name - that
is, it's the one that gets passed on to the next generation, irrespective
of progeny gender. With a 50% advantage in propagation, "Ogg" would have to
swamp other names in the local breeding populations relatively quickly. And
population geneticists out there to do the sums?
--
John Wilkins, Head of Communication Services, Walter and Eliza
Hall Institute of Medical Research
<http://www.wehi.edu.au/~wilkins/www.html><mailto:wil...@wehi.edu.au>
It is the glory of science that it finds the patterns
in spite of the noise - Daniel Dennett
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca
p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk writes:
>"Esme always was a faster runner than you. She could outrun every man in
>the village."
or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
for the cow-and-honey treatment.
>The qualification necessary to tame a unicorn is virginity. "I could hold
>this with a gossamer, Gytha Ogg! With a gossamer!" Traditionally, it
in the unicorn's hooves. Are *you* going to be the one to tell her,
"Nonono! You can't do that because..."?
We all know Granny's opinion about rules - they're wonderful things as
long as it's understood that they don't apply to *her*.
David Girdlestone
Alan Bird <alan...@jsbach.demon.co.uk> wibbled on for a bit about:
>Alan Bird Inventor & Sole Consumer of After-8 Mince
What I wanted to know was do you invent and consume after 8 in the
morning or afternoon - or is it more in line with being after 8-past
the hour?
I had to ask.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
David Girdlestone
[eMail: dgirdl...@deathsdoor.com]
[homepage: http://homepages.enterprise.net/dgirdlestone]
[revision 1.0 - 25 September, 1996]
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Sarah Blake
>This isn't entirely relevent, but whether she *can* outrun a given man
>or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
>for the cow-and-honey treatment.
One tiny question. What precisely IS the 'cow-and-honey' treatment?
*Imagination works overtime*
--
<The Paths of Fire Forsaken>
Sebastian Vielhauer
Alan Bird <alan...@jsbach.demon.co.uk> wrote:
><the last time I tried to send this my poster dropped everything except
>a rather enigmatic last line. Here we go again.>
>In article <54b8cs$g...@rzsun02.rrz.uni-hamburg.de>, Sebastian Vielhauer
><Sebastian...@public.uni-hamburg.de> writes
><snip>
>>In the region I grew up (South Westphalia[1]),
><snip>
>I once lived in this area, in Munster. A lovely city which has a fine
>cage hanging from a church tower (you don't want to know why) and wild
>rabbits living in the city centre.
But it has been a long time since the cages had been in use and the
Münsteraners had the decency to remove the bones from the cages
eventually.
>My German friends told me that the nickname for people from the area was
>Mauer (wall) men. This was on account of the fact that if you bent one
>over, pointed him at a wall, kicked him smartly up the bum, and his head
>subsequently crashed right through the wall, then he was a genuine
>Westphalian.
>I suspect this makes Trolls Westphalians, if anyone could kick one up
>the arse without breaking a foot.
I didn't know about about the Mauermänner, but after all, I am only
half Westphalian. The important feature for being Westphalian is to
have a thick skull, to be a "Dickschädel" as we say in German.
"Dickschädeligkeit" means stubbornness, and YOU WON'T EVER CONVINCE ME
THAT THIS WALL STORY IMPLIES SOMETHING DIFFERENT. WE HAVE UNDERSTOOD
OURSELVES.
Sebastian
Daniel Ratcliffe
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk writes:
>> "Esme always was a faster runner than you. She could outrun every man
>> in the village."
> This isn't entirely relevent, but whether she *can* outrun a given man
> or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
> for the cow-and-honey treatment.
The only problem Granny Wetherwax had when she wasn't "older" was that she
knew she _could_ outrun him, so she _did_ outrun him. She left him behind,
which says a lot about her. Because she could, she did :) I'm babbling, but
never mind :)
Bye,
~Daniel Ratcliffe How did I guess you'd be involved in this, Matthew :)
--
'Beware of...men coming to you dressed as sheep' - Matthew, Ch 14
'Maybe, just *maybe*, you're clueless. That means you have a great career
ahead of you at Microsoft!' - Dave Brown
Andrew Janssen
Andrew Janssen wrote:
>
> John Wilkins wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > It's not exactly spontaneous generation... More a case of spontaneous
> > seduction, I would warrant. It helps that "Ogg" is a dominant name - that
> > is, it's the one that gets passed on to the next generation, irrespective
> > of progeny gender. With a 50% advantage in propagation, "Ogg" would have to
> > swamp other names in the local breeding populations relatively quickly. And
> > population geneticists out there to do the sums?
>
I meant to say that eventually everyone in Lancre will be an Ogg.
> > --
> > John Wilkins, Head of Communication Services, Walter and Eliza
> > Hall Institute of Medical Research
> > <http://www.wehi.edu.au/~wilkins/www.html><mailto:wil...@wehi.edu.au>
> > It is the glory of science that it finds the patterns
> > in spite of the noise - Daniel Dennett
>
> --
> Andrew D. Janssen
> ----------------------------------------------
> If you like J.R.R. Tolkien |
> check out ElendorMUSH at |
> --< elendor.sbs.nau.com:1893 >-- |
> ----------------------------------------------
>
> "You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!"
>
> --Grand Moff Tarkin
--
Andrew D. Janssen
----------------------------------------------
If you like J.R.R. Tolkien |
check out ElendorMUSH at |
--< elendor.sbs.nau.com:1893 >-- |
-----------------------------------------------
"You would prefer another target? A military target? Then name the system!"
--Grand Moff Tarkin
Andrew Janssen
John Wilkins wrote:
<snip>
> It's not exactly spontaneous generation... More a case of spontaneous
> seduction, I would warrant. It helps that "Ogg" is a dominant name - that
> is, it's the one that gets passed on to the next generation, irrespective
> of progeny gender. With a 50% advantage in propagation, "Ogg" would have to
> swamp other names in the local breeding populations relatively quickly. And
> population geneticists out there to do the sums?
This creates the interesting possiblity that eventually everyone in Lance
R Biegler
Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca writes:
>p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk writes:
>>The qualification necessary to tame a unicorn is virginity. "I could hold
>>this with a gossamer, Gytha Ogg! With a gossamer!" Traditionally, it
>
>Traditionally, yes. But suppose Granny wasn't a virgin. Put yourself
>in the unicorn's hooves. Are *you* going to be the one to tell her,
>"Nonono! You can't do that because..."?
The unicorn didn't have the slightest problem about attacking when
Granny and Ridcully were on Lancre bridge. The only problem it had was
in chosing a target because there were two options. The bit you forgot
is somewhere near the quote above, I think just before, and goes
something like "I haven't been thinking, Gytha". That, and Nanny's
explanation to Ridcully that "Esme could always outrun any man in the
village. I always found a root to stumble over." implies quite strongly
that Esme Weatherwax is a virgin. Sure, It doesn't say it in so many
words, but I think your argument is very weak. Besides, what is the
problem, unless you plan to tell her that a state of virginity is some
sort of defect or deficiency? Would you do that?
Robert Biegler
Lady Kayla
wadh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Sarah Blake) scribbled:
>>This isn't entirely relevent, but whether she *can* outrun a given man
>>or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
>>for the cow-and-honey treatment.
>One tiny question. What precisely IS the 'cow-and-honey' treatment?
Now, let me see if I remember this correctly :)
Tie the offending male, naked of course, :) with his back to a tree
(sounds good so far), liberally slather honey on _that_ part of his
anatomy, let cow into field....
Of course I'd remember something as interesting as that :)
--
Lady Kayla ka...@vianet.net.au
http://Solaris.madnet.com/~wicca/dwellers/ppl/kayla.html
http://www.vianet.net.au/~kayla
Peter Bleackley
In Lancre, Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca writes:
|> p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk writes:
|> >"Esme always was a faster runner than you. She could outrun every man in
|> >the village."
|>
|> or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
|> for the cow-and-honey treatment.
|>
|> >this with a gossamer, Gytha Ogg! With a gossamer!" Traditionally, it
|>
|> Traditionally, yes. But suppose Granny wasn't a virgin. Put yourself
|> in the unicorn's hooves. Are *you* going to be the one to tell her,
|> "Nonono! You can't do that because..."?
|>
|> long as it's understood that they don't apply to *her*.
Until Granny tames and shoes it, the Unicorn is the Elf-Queen's creature,
and therefore has a reason for wanting to destroy Granny. It can't do,
however, because Granny has the qualifications. It takes more than Granny's
iron soul to tame it- Nanny Ogg is second only to Granny for strong will,
but she could not tame the unicorn. She points out to Mustrum Ridcully that
Granny's qualifications for unicorn taming are nothing to do with
witchcraft. This means that it can't be force of personality, as Granny
obviously believes that that is at least 99% of witchcraft.
There are passages in both Equal Rites and Wyrd Sisters that indicate that
Granny's experience of sex is limited to the second-hand knowledge of the
consequences that she has gained as a midwife. She doesn't feel able to
enlighten either Esk or Magrat about, "The previous... men and such." As far
as I know, this is the only challenge that has ever defeated her.
I think that Granny avoided sex because she felt witchcraft was more
important, and because complete independance from men gave her more power.
Jane Hodson
In article <552qcs$i...@falcon.le.ac.uk>, p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk says...
>In Lancre, Matthe...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca writes:
>|> p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk writes:
>|> >"Esme always was a faster runner than you. She could outrun every man in
>|> >the village."
>|>
>|> This isn't entirely relevent, but whether she *can* outrun a given man
>|> or not is not the point. If it comes down to "can", someone's asking
>|> for the cow-and-honey treatment.
<snippetty snip>
>There are passages in both Equal Rites and Wyrd Sisters that indicate that
>Granny's experience of sex is limited to the second-hand knowledge of the
>consequences that she has gained as a midwife. <snip snip>
Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of my neck.
Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
sex life?
Jane Hodson
Carol Willis
In article <552rep$k...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>
jl...@cam.ac.uk (Jane Hodson) wrote:
> Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of
> my neck.
> Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
> however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
> sex life?
>
> Jane Hodson
*shudder* Oh my gods! Do you think she really knows? Be afraid, be very
very afraid *quiver*
--
Carol Willis
Ipswich, UK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee.
Sarah Blake
Of course :)
Forgive my ignorance, please! Obviously I'm still just that little bit
too pure. Damn. And I've been working on it so hard too *pout*
Random Companion
In article <552rep$k...@lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Jane Hodson
<jl...@cam.ac.uk> writes
>Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of my neck.
> Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
>however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
>sex life?
>
for the rest of our lives. :)
--
Random Companion
The Unofficial rec.arts.drwho / alt.fan.pratchett / uk.media.tv.sf.drwho /
alt.drwho.creative Quotefile!
http://www.espace.demon.co.uk/quotes.html
Damian Conway
Random Companion <Random_C...@espace.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of my neck.
>> Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
>>however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
>>sex life?
>>
>I think that if we were on the disc, we'd be looking over our shoulders
>for the rest of our lives. :)
And we probably wouldn't have to turn our heads to do it! ;-)
damian
Peter Bleackley
In shock, (Jane Hodson) writes:
|>
|> Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of my neck.
|> Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
|> however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
|> sex life?
|>
I wondered why I'd been going swimming such a lot these last few days.
Victoria Martin
On 30 Oct 1996, Dick Eney wrote:
> James Gater <j.g...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I think that Granny avoided sex because she felt witchcraft was more
> >> important, and because complete independance from men gave her more power.
I think that Granny avoided sex because most of the men on the DW are
completely unattractive and all of those in Lancre certainly are. > >
Okay, personal prejudices aside, I think there are really two different
Garnnies, the one of ER, WS and WA, who probably avoided sex because it
was not the sort of thing decent people thought about, and certainly not
witches (remember her reaction to Nanny Ogg's red boots? Or to Magrat's
trousers?). The Granny of M! has suddenly becomes much more open-minded
and tolerant, not to say knowledgeable about the human sex drive. In
truth, I find the scene in Mrs Palm's where Nanny Ogg suddenly finds
herself saying the lines she had privately attributed to Granny a little
disconcerting. It's entirely in keeping with Nanny Ogg's character for
her to feel at home in a brothel; it's also entirely in keeping with her
character for her to turn out to have prejudices about prostitutes. But
it *isn't* in keeping with the character of Granny as we've seen her so
far to be completely blase about consorting with Mrs Palm and daughters,
and when it turns out she already knows Mrs P. well, I felt a heavy
crunch as my disbelief suddenly ceased to be suspended. This is one of
those instances when Granny just seems too perfect, and although the
scene is very good in and of itself, it jars when taken in the context of
the character as a whole.
*This* granny, the later one, wouldn't have avoided sex because
she was prudish, but because a sufficiently virile, charming,
intelligent, appreciative, talented, beautiful etc. male had never
happened to come along. let alone one who was all these things AND
didn't threaten her independence. Of course, it's hardly surprising she
never met anyone who could live up to her, though I think Ridcully is probably the
best available, but this is a very different sort of reason for being a
virgin than the earlier Granny would have given. Not that the earlier
granny would have dreamed of admitting that sex is something she might
have done herself.Not the sort of thing one talks about, or even thinks
about.
> >I reckon she saw the events of L&L in the tea leaves. Given Granny's
> >propensity for meddling, do you think she'd miss out on shoeing a
> >unicorn if she foresaw it?
But don't forget that she wasn't even sure about herself at this point.
All those other Esme Weatherwax's were interfering. She even thought she
was going to die fighting the Queen, so she can hardly have been
confident she would get a chance to shoe the unicorn afterwards.
Victoria
Listicath
ka...@vianet.net.au (Lady Kayla) wrote:
>wadh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Sarah Blake) scribbled:
>>One tiny question. What precisely IS the 'cow-and-honey' treatment?
>Now, let me see if I remember this correctly :)
>Tie the offending male, naked of course, :) with his back to a tree
>(sounds good so far), liberally slather honey on _that_ part of his
>anatomy, let cow into field....
I thought it was honey and an ant-hill... Ooooh that tickles!
--
/\ ______/_____________/__/________________________________________
__/_/. / . __ __ / /_ +++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please
___/ / /\ / / / / / / / / Reinstall Universe And Reboot +++
\_/\__\_/_/_\_/\_/\__/\_\_\_/ /________[Hogfather]_____A...@dircon.co.uk
Justin
Listicath decided to enlighten us thus:
< ka...@vianet.net.au (Lady Kayla) wrote:
< >wadh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Sarah Blake) scribbled:
< >>One tiny question. What precisely IS the 'cow-and-honey' treatment?
<
< >(sounds good so far), liberally slather honey on _that_ part of his
< >anatomy, let cow into field....
<
< I thought it was honey and an ant-hill... Ooooh that tickles!
actually you don't even need the honey with a cow ...
if you take a bobby-calf (one that's going to be sent to the works),
and put it in a field with a naked man, tied upside-down, then the
calf being a) thirsty and b) stupid, will do the rest. probably just a
ul [1], but sounds plausible. i'm not volunteering though ...
justin
[1] urban-legend.
--
educatelucidatexplicatenunciateradicateliminatequivocatedentatescalate
Justin Ray Macfarlane jus...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz
Scant Marijuana Flyer http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~justin
whatwasisiswhatwaswillbedrinkwateruseyourheadfreebeerroastbeefpoohbear
R Biegler
Victoria Martin <sann...@ermine.ox.ac.uk> writes:
>Okay, personal prejudices aside, I think there are really two different
>witches (remember her reaction to Nanny Ogg's red boots? Or to Magrat's
>trousers?). The Granny of M! has suddenly becomes much more open-minded
>and tolerant, not to say knowledgeable about the human sex drive.
As far as I remember, in Equal Rites Granny and Esk live at Mrs.
Palm's. There is a scene where Granny mixes up some herbal concoction
for a customer with instructions along the lines of "Put one drop only
into his tea, wear loose clothing and make sure that no visitors are
expected". In Mort there is the scene where Cutwell absentmidedly
drinks from a bottle while talking to Mort. When Mort has left Cutwell
starts feeling a bit odd, looks at the bottle and finds it to be
Weatherwax's Ramrub Lovephiltre, with similar instructions regarding
dosage. He runs out into the street, takes a running jump into the
frozen over horse trough and lies back gratefully. A while later the
water begins to steam. Sounds to me like the early Granny could have
contributed a recipe or two to The Joye of Snackes.
Besides, in Maskerade Granny approves of Mrs Palm on the grounds that
she is practically a witch. Perhaps her establishment could be
considered to be based on applied headology of a somewhat specialised
kind. And in Feet of Clay Mrs Palm is the only guild leader who is able
to make a distinction between their interests and what is likely to be
best for the city. I suspect Granny generally respects some kinds of
meddling and the people who do it. Mrs Palm would have plenty of
opportunity for collecting information and using it in the way she
thinks best, and perhaps even let her daughters slip in a few ideas of
her own when the customers are more receptive than usual, always letting
them think they are their own ideas.
So on the whole, it doesn't seem all that inconsistent to me.
Robert Biegler
Malcolm Fraser
->In article <552qcs$i...@falcon.le.ac.uk>, p...@ltsun6.star.le.ac.uk says...
-><snippetty snip>
[et moi aussi]
->
->>There are passages in both Equal Rites and Wyrd Sisters that indicate that
->>Granny's experience of sex is limited to the second-hand knowledge of the
->>consequences that she has gained as a midwife. <snip snip>
->
Midwives tend to get a pretty good idea of what goes on, and I suspect
that Granny would have been able to work out the preliminaries in
detail. After all, vets aren't cows, but all the TV series I've seen
tend to show the poor person up to the essentials of the consequences,
so to speak.
->Every time I read this thread I get a prickly feeling at the back of my neck.
-> Can anyone *imagine* what Granny's reaction would be if she knew that
->however many hundreds of people were reading an in-depth discussion of her
->sex life?
->
Yes, but after a few [1] glasses of wine I can convince myself that I
can run away fast enough. What worries me is the though that she would
manage to deal with each of us individually. Reather like DEATH
cutting corn in RM really.
--
Malcolm in sunny Berkhamsted
Victoria Martin
On 1 Nov 1996, C.Cooke wrote:
>
> Granny met Mrs Palm in Equal Rites, and had no reservations as to the
> profession then - take a look if you don't believe me [1]. In fact, she
> provided some of the <ahem> chemical necessities that allow the
> afforementioned business to run smoothly
>
Gosh - well, that blows that little criticism out of the water then. And
helps to account for the gradual development from Granny 1 to Granny 2,
since that must have been a thoroughly mind-broadening experience.
Erm, what kind of chemical necessatities, exactly?
Victoria
Graham Nye
In article <55bf2u$6...@cantuc.canterbury.ac.nz>
jus...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz "Justin" writes:
> Listicath decided to enlighten us thus:
> < >wadh...@sable.ox.ac.uk (Sarah Blake) scribbled:
> < >>One tiny question. What precisely IS the 'cow-and-honey' treatment?
> <
<snip>
>
> if you take a bobby-calf (one that's going to be sent to the works),
> and put it in a field with a naked man, tied upside-down, then the
> calf being a) thirsty and b) stupid, will do the rest. probably just a
> ul [1], but sounds plausible. i'm not volunteering though ...
>
> justin
>
> [1] urban-legend.
Shirley a rl [2]
[2] rural legend
--
Graham Nye
gra...@tyndale.demon.co.uk
Sean Yeomans
Graham Nye <gra...@tyndale.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<846938...@tyndale.demon.co.uk>...
that must play havoc with shirley's social life, being a rural legend and
all. what do you mean i missed the point?
sean