Accents in Discworld audiobooks?
Robotech_Master
cultural significance of the various different accents assigned to the
Discworld characters in the audiobook renditions by Nigel Planer and
Stephen Briggs? As an American, I often find myself wondering why a
given accent was assigned to a given character, what it's called, and
what sort of person would have that accent in real life.
--
Chris Meadows aka | WWW: http://www.terrania.us | Somebody
Robotech_Master | ICQ: 5477383 AIM: RoboMastr | help, I'm
robotec...@gmail.com | Skype, LJ-Gizmo: Robotech_Master | trapped in
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Emma Anne
> I was wondering if anyone's ever written anything up about the
> cultural significance of the various different accents assigned to the
> Discworld characters in the audiobook renditions by Nigel Planer and
> Stephen Briggs? As an American, I often find myself wondering why a
> given accent was assigned to a given character, what it's called, and
> what sort of person would have that accent in real life.
Good question - I hope someone answers. I am really impressed with the
two readers of TP's books. Listening to Feet of Clay now.
Urquharts
wrote:
>I was wondering if anyone's ever written anything up about the
>cultural significance of the various different accents assigned to the
>Discworld characters in the audiobook renditions by Nigel Planer and
>Stephen Briggs? As an American, I often find myself wondering why a
>given accent was assigned to a given character, what it's called, and
>what sort of person would have that accent in real life.
Not sure if the accents have any cultural significance, rather than
just being stock accents in Planer's palate (I haven't heard Stephen
Briggs). For example, his Ludmilla sounded suspiciously like Neil,
from the Young Ones.
I suspect it's all in the ear of the beholder, but some accents, like
the Scottish trolls, seem to work very well, while others, like the
Belfast Colon are rather jarring.
Very interesting topic, particularly if you are in the habit of
reading the books aloud. My wife and I do this sometimes, and using
accents adds a certain something.
For what it's worth, we tend to use the following accents:
Trolls - Planer's lowland Scots
Dwarfs from Copperhead - Yorkshire
Dwarfs from Uberwald - Welsh
Nobby (and Gaspode) - Dudley Moore (in Dud mode)
Colon - George Dixon
Vampires(and Vampyres) - Standard Screen Transylvanian
Nanny Ogg - Berkshire
Granny - Southern English schoolmarm
Mightily Oates - Derek Nimmo
Vimes - John Thaw (the Sweeny version)
Carrot - standard RAF subaltern type
Death - Valentine Dyall
Igor - Charles Laughton
and so on. It can get quite difficult in crowd scenes. The Rude
Mechanicals were the hardest, followed by the Illucidated Brethren.
Regards
Doug Urquhart
Doug Urquhart
to alt.fan. I would have thought this was a perfectly cromulent
subject for alt.books
Regards
Doug Urquhart
Emma Anne
> Apologies for the double post: I didn't realize the reply was limited
> to alt.fan. I would have thought this was a perfectly cromulent
> subject for alt.books
>
It is! Please keep it here as well.
Doug Urquhart
<muclu...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>"Robotech_Master" <robo...@eyrie.org> wrote in message
>news:slrnh0ulkq....@terrania.homelinux.org...
>>I was wondering if anyone's ever written anything up about the
>> cultural significance of the various different accents assigned to the
>> Discworld characters in the audiobook renditions by Nigel Planer and
>> Stephen Briggs? As an American, I often find myself wondering why a
>> given accent was assigned to a given character, what it's called, and
>> what sort of person would have that accent in real life.
>
>
>I'm sorry this is going to have to be general, and not address your question
>as directly as it might. I couldn't find the Livejournal post about the
>subject some months ago.
>
>One of the editors of Guilty of Literature, Farah Mendlesohn, argues several
>things about Nigel Planer's "casting" of the audiobooks versus the Stephen
>Briggs versions. These are not quite direct quotes, but just because it was
>awkward to quote the conversation directly.
>
>1. Nigel Planer "casts" Colon-who grew up in Ankh-Morpork--as a thick Paddy
>(i.e., Irish).
Are you sure? It sounded more Northern Irish to me. It certainly jars.
>
>2. Carrot--who is from the Ramtops, has the same English accent as Vimes,
>who grew up in Ankh-Morpork.
>
>3. But both Briggs and Planer use London Jewish accents for
>Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler.
Yes, the "my life, already" accent. I think it fits
>One of the other editors said that "Briggs carefully matched dwarf areas to
>British mining towns, so there are Welsh dwarves and Yorkshire dwarves,
>etc."
Again, yes - I think that approach works
>
>So Mendlesohn argues that Briggs's versions are superior for these reasons.
>I can't comment directly, because I've never listened to any of them, but
>those considerations would certainly incline me to try Briggs first.
I think Planer's two touches of sheer genius were Tethys (who sounded
like the captain of a lifeboat) and the Dowager Duchess of Quirm
(can't remember her exact name) who sounded like a Windsor.
I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
Regards
Doug Urquhart
steveski
>>3. But both Briggs and Planer use London Jewish accents for
>>Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler.
> Yes, the "my life, already" accent. I think it fits
viz. "Never Mind the Quality - Feel the Width" (60s British sitcom about
a firm of tailors - very witty given the era). I'm sure it must have been
one of SirPTs inspirations.
But, IMO, a sort of 'Del boy, Sarf Lunden wide-boy' would have fitted
C.M.O.T. better. Yes/no?
--
Steveski
Raymond Daley
"Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much surely?
Reader in Invisible Writings
fool but not a village idiot!
Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
--
Reader in Invisible Writings.. Something to Ponder upon!
John S. Wilkins
But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
--
John S. Wilkins, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvethink.wordpress.com/
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre
Lesley Weston
> On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:48:30 +0000, Doug Urquhart wrote:
>
>>> 3. But both Briggs and Planer use London Jewish accents for
>>> Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler.
>> Yes, the "my life, already" accent. I think it fits
>
> viz. "Never Mind the Quality - Feel the Width" (60s British sitcom about
> a firm of tailors - very witty given the era). I'm sure it must have been
> one of SirPTs inspirations.
But which one? The Irish trousers-maker or the my-life-already
jacket-maker? One of the points of the show was that whatever their
differences, together they made good suits. I agree that it was an
excellent show.
>
> But, IMO, a sort of 'Del boy, Sarf Lunden wide-boy' would have fitted
> C.M.O.T. better. Yes/no?
Either is fine - after all they have a lot in common.
--
Lesley Weston
The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
Lesley Weston
another, English comedians seem to fall into two main groups: the
common-as-muck lot, such as Norman Wisdom, and the public-school lot,
such as the Monty Python crew. Then there was Benny Hill, of course, who
could be whatever was needed to make the joke as long as the word
"knickers" came into it somewhere.
Lesley Weston
> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
>>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much surely?
>>>
>>>
>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
>> fool but not a village idiot!
>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
>> ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>
> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
Not in Fantasy, or on the BBC.
John S. Wilkins
> John S. Wilkins wrote:
> > Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Raymond Daley wrote:
> >>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> >>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
> >>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
> >>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
> >>>surely?
> >>>
> >>>
> >> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
> >> fool but not a village idiot!
> >> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
> >> ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
> >
> > But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> > weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
>
> Not in Fantasy, or on the BBC.
Ah. Sorry. From the other side of the world it is hard to know the
conventions...
Lesley Weston
> Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>>> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>>>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>>>>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
>>>>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>>>>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
>>>>> surely?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
>>>> fool but not a village idiot!
>>>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
>>>> ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>>> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
>>> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
>> Not in Fantasy, or on the BBC.
>
> Ah. Sorry. From the other side of the world it is hard to know the
> conventions...
I've just read /Snobs, Nobs and Yobs/, about the Australian class system
around ten years ago. Most enlightening.
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>> > "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>> > news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>> >> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In
>> >> my mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>> >
>> > Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
>> > surely?
>> >
>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
>> fool but not a village idiot!
>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has
>> an ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>
> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
Perhaps, but the Disc *does* have places like Eton (which in our world
was founded in 1440). Hugglestones is an example, as is the Assassins'
Guild. Whether Verence I went to one of them is another question, but he
probably had a tutor who taught him the proper way to speak.
--
Dave
"All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
Arthur Hagen
> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
>>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>>>
>>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
>>> surely?
>>
>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
>> fool but not a village idiot!
>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and
>> has an ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>
> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
Hiring governesses and tutors with desirable accents was common up until
very recently. But it doesn't matter too much, because before public
schools, gentlemen would not speak to each other in common English, but use
Latin or French.
Anyhow, Discworld's weird era is closer to the industrial revolution than
medieval times. People (and unpeople) travel.
Regards,
--
*Art
John S. Wilkins
> John S. Wilkins wrote:
> > Lesley Weston <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> John S. Wilkins wrote:
> >>> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Raymond Daley wrote:
> >>>>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >>>>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> >>>>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
> >>>>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
> >>>>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
> >>>>> surely?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
> >>>> fool but not a village idiot!
> >>>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
> >>>> ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
> >>> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> >>> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
> >> Not in Fantasy, or on the BBC.
> >
> > Ah. Sorry. From the other side of the world it is hard to know the
> > conventions...
>
> I've just read /Snobs, Nobs and Yobs/, about the Australian class system
> around ten years ago. Most enlightening.
Oh I wasn't proposing that Australia was classless. We have our own
ethnic and economic hierarchies, of course. In fact I read a study that
proposed that Australia's "criminal families" were dispossessed Irish
from the 19thC that persist as a criminal underclass even now.
Bri Tze
wrote:
> On 23 May 2009, j...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:> >> > "Doug Urquhart" <doug...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
> >> >> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In
> >> >> my mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>
> >> > Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much
> >> > surely?
>
> >> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
> >> fool but not a village idiot!
> >> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has
> >> an ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>
> > But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> > weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
>
> Perhaps, but the Disc *does* have places like Eton (which in our world
> was founded in 1440). Hugglestones is an example, as is the Assassins'
> Guild. Whether Verence I went to one of them is another question, but he
> probably had a tutor who taught him the proper way to speak.
>
> --
> Dave
> "All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand."
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'd say that Hugglestones is more like Gordonstone (sp?) than Eton.
But I would agree about the Assassins Guild.
Bri Tze
Lesley Weston
Nono, I wasn't suggesting that, just that Australia's class system is
different from Britain's, though I think it might be less so than Canada's.
> We have our own
> ethnic and economic hierarchies, of course. In fact I read a study that
> proposed that Australia's "criminal families" were dispossessed Irish
> from the 19thC that persist as a criminal underclass even now.
Conspiracy theory?
John S. Wilkins
More a matter of freezing the social outcast class into a set of
relations between the law and those of Irish descent. In Victoria
(during the goldfields and after) the police were largely corrupt and
used the Irish as whipping boys. There is a long-standing resentment of
what happened during that time that ended up in later gangs and so on.
Raymond Daley
> >> Raymond Daley wrote:
> >> > Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as muck
> >> > surely?
Nice to see I started a discussion ;-)
When I did my RAF Basic Training (back when RAF Swinderby still existed as a
unit) my 1st squadron was full of Glaswegians and over the time I was with
them I found myself speaking more like them. My mum even remarked on my
inherited Scottish accent when I 1st came home on leave. I found that
whatever accent was the most dominant that surrounded me suddenly sank into
my subconcious and I gradually adapted into it. PS. The process happens a
LOT faster when your drunk.
I wonder if Verence would have encountered the same during his training.
Its like Vimes' comment in Jingo that you see a face that has camels written
all over it but when they spoke it was Ankhian thick enough to float rocks
in.
Lesley Weston
Somehow that sounds familiar. It's one of humanity's less endearing
traits that everybody seems to need a They who are perceived as out to
get us and a Them who are perceived as inferior and the cause of all our
problems.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
<brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
And a Daily Mail to tell them which is which. Sigh.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by infinity is
to contemplate the extent of human stupidity." -- Voltaire
Alec Cawley
> steveski wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 May 2009 19:48:30 +0000, Doug Urquhart wrote:
>>
>>>> 3. But both Briggs and Planer use London Jewish accents for
>>>> Cut-Me-Own-Throat Dibbler.
>>> Yes, the "my life, already" accent. I think it fits
>>
>> viz. "Never Mind the Quality - Feel the Width" (60s British sitcom
>> about a firm of tailors - very witty given the era). I'm sure it must
>> have been one of SirPTs inspirations.
>
> But which one? The Irish trousers-maker or the my-life-already
> jacket-maker? One of the points of the show was that whatever their
> differences, together they made good suits. I agree that it was an
> excellent show.
>>
>> But, IMO, a sort of 'Del boy, Sarf Lunden wide-boy' would have fitted
>> C.M.O.T. better. Yes/no?
>
> Either is fine - after all they have a lot in common.
I see CMOT as coming from the same street as Steptoe and Son. I don't
see him as particularly Jewish.
Alec Cawley
> Reader in Invisible Writings <markfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> "Doug Urquhart" <dou...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>>> news:4a170034....@news.snet.sbcglobal.net...
>>>> I must confess that I tend to read Verence as a Windsor, too. In my
>>>> mind, he sounds like Prince Charles.
>>> Why? Wasn't Verence raised as a fool, he'd sound as common as much surely?
>>>
>>>
>> No a fool would have an accent to match his masters. The may want a
>> fool but not a village idiot!
>> Also the Fools' Guild provides a very high level of education and has an
>> ear in most Royal Courts, with a bank balance to match ;-) .
>
> But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like Eton,
> weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their locale's?
No. The nobility spoke French, salted with Latin if they were clever,
the serfs Early English. Even when the nobility switched to English,
they had, generally, a different English. Though in most cases, I am
sure they could speak the local dialect equally well.
John S. Wilkins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/storysofar/ramfiles/poshrout
es_history.ram
steveski
Neither do I particularly but it's that whole London Wide-boy thing.
--
Steveski
Daibhid Ceanaideach
> Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>> > But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like
>> > Eton, weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their
>> > locale's?
>>
>> No. The nobility spoke French, salted with Latin if they were clever,
>> the serfs Early English. Even when the nobility switched to English,
>> they had, generally, a different English. Though in most cases, I am
>> sure they could speak the local dialect equally well.
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/storysofar/ramfiles/poshrou
> t es_history.ram
That seems to broadly agree with what Alec says, with the addition that
nobility in the North of England didn't care, which says more about the
North of England than the nobility. (Even today, I can't think of a posh
Northern accent, although I can think of two posh Scottish accents.)
Lesley Weston
Not his religion or ethnicity (I don't think there's any mention of that
about any of the DW humans, except where it's relevant), just his
accent. People tend to speak in the way appropriate to what they're
doing, and low-level commerce of the cut-throat variety requires the
accents used by Wilfrid Brambell, David Jason and John Bluthal playing
Steptoe pere, Del Boy or Manny Cohen respectively. The "Jewish" accent
is affected by many people in the garment industry, whatever their
origins, which is why it's sometimes called the rag-trade accent, and is
also the one heard most often at street markets, again whatever the
spieler's origins and wherever the street may be.
That's if there are still street markets.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
<daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
Harrogate has one, but it's not obvious for non-Northerners!
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English
is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion,
English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious
and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary." -- James Nicoll, rasfw
Esmeraldus
"Lesley Weston" <brightly_co...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:gvh19q$ao8$1...@mud.stack.nl...
See, I think that may have been the objectionable thing--perpetuation of a
stereotype.
I don't remember for certain because I can't find the original post, and I
haven't listened to the books. But by your own logic, does that seem
necessarily the best choice?
--
Stacie, fourth swordswoman of the afpocalypse.
AFPMinister of Flexible Weapons & Bondage-happy predator
AFPMistress to peachy ashie passion
"If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to be a horrible warning."
steveski
> On 26 May 2009 12:05:17 GMT, Daibhid Ceanaideach
> <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>On 26 May 2009, jo...@wilkins.id.au (John S. Wilkins) wrote:
>>
>>> Alec Cawley <al...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> John S. Wilkins wrote:
>>
>>>> > But before the institution of "grammar" schools and places like
>>>> > Eton, weren't the accents of the nobility the same as their
>>>> > locale's?
>>>>
>>>> No. The nobility spoke French, salted with Latin if they were clever,
>>>> the serfs Early English. Even when the nobility switched to English,
>>>> they had, generally, a different English. Though in most cases, I am
>>>> sure they could speak the local dialect equally well.
>>>
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/storysofar/ramfiles/
poshrou
>>> t es_history.ram
>>
>>That seems to broadly agree with what Alec says, with the addition that
>>nobility in the North of England didn't care, which says more about the
>>North of England than the nobility. (Even today, I can't think of a posh
>>Northern accent, although I can think of two posh Scottish accents.)
>
> Harrogate has one, but it's not obvious for non-Northerners!
Wilmslow sort of had one - until the influx of footballers et al.
--
Steveski
Eric Jarvis
daibhidc...@aol.com says...
>
> That seems to broadly agree with what Alec says, with the addition that
> nobility in the North of England didn't care, which says more about the
> North of England than the nobility. (Even today, I can't think of a posh
> Northern accent, although I can think of two posh Scottish accents.)
>
Harrogate. It won't sound posh to anyone who isn't from Yorkshire though.
--
eric
Live fast, die only if strictly necessary.
Lesley Weston
I don't think so. I put "Jewish" in quotes because the accent itself has
nothing to do with religion or ethnicity, and everything to do with the
particular activity of that moment - it's assumed, not inherent. Half of
my family are or were Jewish but none of them uses or used that accent;
indeed, my grandfather, who was Jewish and did work in the clothing
industry, becoming quite important in the Garment-makers' Union, spoke
English (and presumably all the other languages he spoke) with a heavy
Romanian accent whether he was discussing the rag trade or anything else.
However, my husband, who is not Jewish but has worked in the rag trade,
can do that accent just as convincingly as he can any other (he's good
at accents), and does so whenever it's relevant.
Do you think "I have always relied on the kindness of strangers" would
sound right in an Eton accent? Or even a New England accent?
>
> I don't remember for certain because I can't find the original post, and
> I haven't listened to the books. But by your own logic, does that seem
> necessarily the best choice?
I haven't heard them either, so this is a discussion taking place in a
vacuum - the best kind.