Night Watch
Dean Jarratt
put it down. I'm a big fan of all 'The Watch' books, and so far Night Watch
is living up to all expectations.
Not only is it a good story, but Mr Pratchett has some 'fantastic' ideas on
Time/Space and Quantum theory, getting people to really think about
things...something which I believe Harry Potter books fail to do.
While I'm on the subject of Harry Potter...doesn't it remind you of all
those late 80's Children's BBC series, such as Simon and the Witch, etc. You
know the ones, where precocious kids ramble on about discovering things and
saving the world and such like.
si...@direrealms.com
"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.removethistoreply.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> Time/Space and Quantum theory, getting people to really think about
> things...something which I believe Harry Potter books fail to do.
Harry Potter books seem to be rather poorly done (in my opinion) - anyone
can write a book where things get more and more and more depressing with
every page until finally a bunch of kids miraculously against all odds
defeat people with 30 years more experience to whom they are outnumbered
against....
There is no sense of logic at all when it comes to science, and that is one
of the key factors (as anyone who's read the Science of the Discworld will
know) in TP books - that they provide facinating views on accepted truths
(First there was nothing, then it exploded). Only TP could take something
like that and look at it from a totally new (and always humourous) angle.
I thought The Watch was excellent; before reading it I didn't think any book
would top Guards! Guards! but I was wrong. Like you say, the concepts of
meeting your younger self were highly entertaining, and I thought the guy
loaded with knives was hilarious.
Christian Dobusch
webm...@direrealms.com wrote:
> [HP]There is no sense of logic at all when it comes to science, and that is one
> of the key factors (as anyone who's read the Science of the Discworld will
> know) in TP books - that they provide facinating views on accepted truths
> (First there was nothing, then it exploded). Only TP could take something
> like that and look at it from a totally new (and always humourous) angle.
You must not forget that HP is originally written for kids!
And I really don´t think that HP and TP can be compared to each other.
They have only one thing in common, that is that they are great books! ;)
Regards,
Chris
Friar Sven
news:3F2D078...@christian-dobusch.de...
Just because a book is intended for children to read is no excuse for shoddy
plotting, with massive holes where characterisation and story development
should be.
Children deserve decent books, not be fobbed off with derivative, bland,
unoriginal nonsense.
Friar Sven, donning his asbestos coat in celebration of returning to ABP
after 3 years away.
--
--
S: Not exactly the St Crispins Day speech, was it?
G: We few, we happy few
S: We band of buggered
Paul Wilkins
> "Christian Dobusch" wrote
>> You must not forget that HP is originally written for kids!
>> And I really don´t think that HP and TP can be compared to each
>> other. They have only one thing in common, that is that they are
>> great books! ;)
>
> Just because a book is intended for children to read is no excuse for
> shoddy plotting, with massive holes where characterisation and story
> development should be.
> Children deserve decent books, not be fobbed off with derivative,
> bland, unoriginal nonsense.
Hurrah! Thank you that man for putting my thoughts in such a clear
manner.
> Friar Sven, donning his asbestos coat in celebration of returning to
> ABP after 3 years away.
--
Paul Wilkins
Richard Eney
Friar Sven <ste...@friarsven.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>"Christian Dobusch" <chri...@christian-dobusch.de> wrote
>> webm...@direrealms.com wrote:
>>
>>> [HP]There is no sense of logic at all when it comes to science,
>>> and that is one of the key factors (as anyone who's read the
>>> Science of the Discworld will know) in TP books - that
>>> they provide facinating views on accepted truths
[TP] As long as you don't look too closely at the celestial mechanics
of the Disc, or ask what the elephants eat... :-) But I agree that
Pterry provides fascinating views of accepted truths, though not all
of those "accepted truths" are scientific theories.
[HP] Part of the point she is making is that there is very little
logic in the wizard world. But a.b.p. is not the place to go into
extensive detail on that topic. a.f.h-p is perhaps more appropriate,
or at least a.f.p.
>> You must not forget that HP is originally written for kids!
>> And I really don´t think that HP and TP can be compared to each other.
>> They have only one thing in common, that is that they are great books! ;)
>
>Just because a book is intended for children to read is no excuse
>for shoddy plotting, with massive holes where characterisation and
>story development should be.
>Children deserve decent books, not be fobbed off with derivative,
>bland, unoriginal nonsense.
HP isn't all that derivative, and the series isn't finished yet. Some
characters are developing well and others could be revealed later to
have a good reason for their behavior. I'm reserving judgement until
I have the complete story.
Last time I looked, this was not alt.bash.harrypotter.
Can we talk about Pterrybooks, please?
=Tamar
"Comparisons are odious." - someone Victorian, no doubt.
Kieran Sanders
news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> put it down. I'm a big fan of all 'The Watch' books, and so far Night
Watch
> is living up to all expectations.
>
Night Watch is probably my favourite Discworld book to date (though the last
one I've read usually is, until the next one). I read the whole thing cover
to cover in one 8 hour session (which rather upset my plans - I set out to
read for 10 minutes before bed, and ended up finishing it at about 10 in the
morning, then having to do a full day's unemployment yawning)
SPOILER WARNING - stop here if you haven't finished it yet.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
>
> Not only is it a good story, but Mr Pratchett has some 'fantastic' ideas
on
> Time/Space and Quantum theory, getting people to really think about
> things...something which I believe Harry Potter books fail to do.
Certainly some interesting stuff (I particularly liked the way that all the
clear cut "this is the way it works" explanations were immediately followed
by "that's not really the way it works, but you wouldn't understand how it
*really* works".
What really fascinated me was the interplay between the characters. I was
also surprised at just how dark the story was, while still reataining the
Discworld "feel". A lot of the humour was a lot more sardonic than in
previous books (except maybe Carpe Jugulum). I particularly enjoyed the
conversations between "young" and "Old" Vimes, and all of Old Vimes' musings
about wishing he didn't know now what he didn't know then.
The whole story of the revolution, and presumably Vimes' subsequent
disapointment with Snapcase goes a long way towards explaing how he became
such a terrible cynic, though I also recall a reference to his having been
"Brung Low" by a woman in Guards! Guards!, but can't seem to find any
further details.
> While I'm on the subject of Harry Potter...doesn't it remind you of all
> those late 80's Children's BBC series, such as Simon and the Witch, etc.
You
> know the ones, where precocious kids ramble on about discovering things
and
> saving the world and such like.
>
I've never read any Harry Potter, but the overall premise reminds me
strongly of the "Worst Witch" books (unfortunately, I can't remember the
author's name), which features a school for young witches.
~Kieran Sanders
Dean Jarratt
"Kieran Sanders" <cyp...@hobbit-hole.net> wrote in message
news:bgn47q$r7d$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
> "Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.removethistoreply.co.uk> wrote in
message
> news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
> > I am finding Night Watch to be an absolutely corking read. I simply
can't
> > put it down. I'm a big fan of all 'The Watch' books, and so far Night
> Watch
> > is living up to all expectations.
> >
>
> Night Watch is probably my favourite Discworld book to date (though the
last
> one I've read usually is, until the next one). I read the whole thing
cover
> to cover in one 8 hour session (which rather upset my plans - I set out to
> read for 10 minutes before bed, and ended up finishing it at about 10 in
the
> morning, then having to do a full day's unemployment yawning)
>
> SPOILER WARNING - stop here if you haven't finished it yet.
Needless to say I have now finished it...I reckon I read it faster than any
other Discworld book. ;)
> > Not only is it a good story, but Mr Pratchett has some 'fantastic' ideas
> on
> > Time/Space and Quantum theory, getting people to really think about
> > things...something which I believe Harry Potter books fail to do.
>
> What really fascinated me was the interplay between the characters. I was
> also surprised at just how dark the story was, while still reataining the
> Discworld "feel". A lot of the humour was a lot more sardonic than in
> previous books (except maybe Carpe Jugulum). I particularly enjoyed the
> conversations between "young" and "Old" Vimes, and all of Old Vimes'
musings
> about wishing he didn't know now what he didn't know then.
Vimes in the past taking on the role as Keel was a masterstroke...I also
thought that Carcer was the best villian to date.
Night Watch truly was a beautifully written book, it makes me want to learn
more about Ankh-Morpork's history.
Brian Wakeling
Kieran Sanders <cyp...@hobbit-hole.net> typed:
>
> The whole story of the revolution, and presumably Vimes'
> subsequent disapointment with Snapcase goes a long way towards
> explaing how he became such a terrible cynic, though I also
> recall a reference to his having been "Brung Low" by a woman in
> Guards! Guards!, but can't seem to find any further details.
In G!G! Vimes keeps referring to the city of A-M as a woman, I'm
sure in much the same way as some other fictional detective
(possibly American) referred to the city he worked in as a woman.
Sgt Colon has heard this metaphor several times and still can't
comprehend it, so takes the "woman" literally as the device the
brought Vimes low. It was the city itself, that Vimes couldn't
fit into, that brought him low, and his referral to it as a woman
causes Colon to think it was an actual woman who did the
bringing.
--
Sabremeister Brian :-)
Use b dot wakeling at virgin dot net to reply
New website: http://freespace.virgin.net/b.wakeling/index.html
"99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name."
Daibhid Ceannaideach
>From: "Kieran Sanders" cyp...@hobbit-hole.net
>Date: 05/08/03 03:19 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <bgn47q$r7d$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>
>
>"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.removethistoreply.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>> While I'm on the subject of Harry Potter...doesn't it remind you of all
>> those late 80's Children's BBC series, such as Simon and the Witch, etc.
>You
>> know the ones, where precocious kids ramble on about discovering things
>and
>> saving the world and such like.
>>
>
>I've never read any Harry Potter, but the overall premise reminds me
>strongly of the "Worst Witch" books (unfortunately, I can't remember the
>author's name), which features a school for young witches.
Jill Murphy.
Both Murphy and Rowling are very good, but the best author for this sort of
stuff is Diane Wynne-Jones.
--
Dave
Now Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysoc for FOUR years
http://www.eusa.ed.ac.uk/societies/sesoc
"Nanotechnology could be huge."
Lord Sainsbury, Science and Innovation Minister
James Morrissey
i assume you've never read or heard of the worst witch, or roald dahl?
JQM
Kieran Sanders
news:bgo9kh$qedu8$1...@ID-188625.news.uni-berlin.de...
> In G!G! Vimes keeps referring to the city of A-M as a woman, I'm
> sure in much the same way as some other fictional detective
> (possibly American) referred to the city he worked in as a woman.
> Sgt Colon has heard this metaphor several times and still can't
> comprehend it, so takes the "woman" literally as the device the
> brought Vimes low. It was the city itself, that Vimes couldn't
> fit into, that brought him low, and his referral to it as a woman
> causes Colon to think it was an actual woman who did the
> bringing.
>
Hmm. I hadn't considered that. I'd always assumed that Vimes'
personification of the city as a woman was more of a "fall back" for him
after some disastrous relationship, but re-reading the sequence near the
beginning where vimes is drunk in the gutter, I see that you're right.
I must have forgotten that monologue (Its been a couple of years since I've
read G!G!).
~Kieran Sanders
Terry Pratchett
<cyp...@hobbit-hole.net> writes
>>
>
>Hmm. I hadn't considered that. I'd always assumed that Vimes'
>personification of the city as a woman was more of a "fall back" for him
>after some disastrous relationship, but re-reading the sequence near the
>beginning where vimes is drunk in the gutter, I see that you're right.
>
>
events of NW and the start of G! G! Plenty of time for dozens of women
to bring him down:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
John Duncan Yoyo
Ceannaideach) wrote:
>>
>>From: "Kieran Sanders" cyp...@hobbit-hole.net
>>Date: 05/08/03 03:19 GMT Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <bgn47q$r7d$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>
>>
>>"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.removethistoreply.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
>>> While I'm on the subject of Harry Potter...doesn't it remind you of all
>>> those late 80's Children's BBC series, such as Simon and the Witch, etc.
>>> You know the ones, where precocious kids ramble on about discovering things
>>> and saving the world and such like.
>>>
>>
>>I've never read any Harry Potter, but the overall premise reminds me
>>strongly of the "Worst Witch" books (unfortunately, I can't remember the
>>author's name), which features a school for young witches.
>Both Murphy and Rowling are very good, but the best author for this sort of
>stuff is Diane Wynne-Jones.
Archer's Goon is my favorite of DW-J that shares the feel of the
Potter books. Need to reread that one again. I don't remember more
than really enjoying it and HP reminding me of it.
-
John Duncan Yoyo
------------------------------o)
Dean Jarratt
"Daibhid Ceannaideach" <daibhidc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030805162308...@mb-m19.aol.com...
> >
> >From: "Kieran Sanders" cyp...@hobbit-hole.net
> >Date: 05/08/03 03:19 GMT Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <bgn47q$r7d$1...@hercules.btinternet.com>
> >
> >"Dean Jarratt" <d.ja...@ukonline.removethistoreply.co.uk> wrote in
message
> >news:bgdges$ekc$1$8300...@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> >> While I'm on the subject of Harry Potter...doesn't it remind you of all
> >> those late 80's Children's BBC series, such as Simon and the Witch,
etc.
> >You
> >> know the ones, where precocious kids ramble on about discovering things
> >and
> >> saving the world and such like.
> >>
> >
> >I've never read any Harry Potter, but the overall premise reminds me
> >strongly of the "Worst Witch" books (unfortunately, I can't remember the
> >author's name), which features a school for young witches.
>
> Jill Murphy.
>
> Both Murphy and Rowling are very good, but the best author for this sort
of
> stuff is Diane Wynne-Jones.
I palmed a Diane Wynne-Jones book onto my girlfriend to read...it was called
A Sudden Wild Magic...she really enjoyed it apparently, I'll have to read it
one day.
Portia
> the best author for this sort
> of stuff is Diane Wynne-Jones.
Seconded. IMHO, the Chrestomanci books are the best of its kind I have
never read; and the plot is more solid and better threaded than HP and a
hundred times more surprising.
I only have a fault to find with her books. She is too fond of happy
endings; hero and heroine getting married, etc. A bit like Lily
Weatherwax.
BridexIII
"Portia" <Out...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.08.06....@mail.com...
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:23:08 +0000, Daibhid Ceannaideach wrote:
>
> > the best author for this sort
> > of stuff is Diane Wynne-Jones.
>
> Seconded. IMHO, the Chrestomanci books are the best of its kind I have
> never read; and the plot is more solid and better threaded than HP and a
> hundred times more surprising.
>
discworld books for a sneaky read, mind you I read their Chrestomanci's so
fair is fair.
BrideXIII--
http://www.the-cauldron.net
http://www.greenmanhosting.co.uk
http://templatemagic.wildwitchin.co.uk
grahamafforda...@hotmail.com
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:03:05 +0100, Terry Pratchett
<tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> there's certainly more than twenty years between the 'past'
>events of NW and the start of G! G! Plenty of time for dozens of women
>to bring him down:-)
<Boggle>
One at a time or all together...?!
Cheers,
Graham.
Richard Eney
James Morrissey <mellon_c...@btopenworld.com> wrote:
>> HP isn't all that derivative,
>
>i assume you've never read or heard of the worst witch, or roald dahl?
The school in Roald Dahl's _Matilda_ does not teach magic.
_The Worst Witch_ is on my extensive list of pre-HP books with schools
that do teach magic, which goes back to the 12th century AD (so far) and
covers three typed pages. The idea of a magic school, as Terry has said,
is part of the pool of story.
=Tamar
Matthew Malthouse
Rugby tackle.
Matthew
--
Il est important d'être un homme ou une femme en colère; le jour où nous
quitte la colère, ou le désir, c'est cuit. - Barbara
Tom Joyce
} On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:34:38 GMT gra...@affordable-leather.co.ukDELETETHIS wrote:
} } Hi there,
} }
} } On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:03:05 +0100, Terry Pratchett
} } <tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
} }
} } > there's certainly more than twenty years between the 'past'
} } >events of NW and the start of G! G! Plenty of time for dozens of women
} } >to bring him down:-)
} }
} } <Boggle>
} }
} } One at a time or all together...?!
}
} Rugby tackle.
Surely if there are several of them at the same time it would form a
ruck...
8-)
--
yours aye,
Tom
You don't "watch" cricket as such, you enter a kind of meditative
state. For five days. It's very relaxing. - Tim Auton 2003-08-04
James Morrissey
> >
> >i assume you've never read or heard of the worst witch, or roald dahl?
>
> The school in Roald Dahl's _Matilda_ does not teach magic.
i didn't say it did . . . what?
i was referring more to the old "harry had evil parents who made him live in
the basement".
JQM
Shadowcory
>
> webm...@direrealms.com wrote:
>
> > [HP]There is no sense of logic at all when it comes to science, and that is one
> > of the key factors (as anyone who's read the Science of the Discworld will
> > know) in TP books - that they provide facinating views on accepted truths
> > (First there was nothing, then it exploded). Only TP could take something
> > like that and look at it from a totally new (and always humourous) angle.
>
> You must not forget that HP is originally written for kids!
>
> Chris
Well, theres a difference between being writting for kids and kids
appreciating it as such. Anyone can use that as an excuse: "Oh, I
didn't make that story involving because it's for kids, they prefer
simple books" and so on. I'm a kid (Well, I'm 13, does that count?)
and I've always preferred discworld to Harry Potter, mainly for the
reasons listed above.
But seeing as discworld was meant for adults (Heh, when has that ever
stopped me :P), I'll go onto the same turf here. Wee Free men was
meant for younger readers (Was it? I remember hearing that once.).
Wheras HP is just things happening after another, WFM is linked,
everything happening for a reason. There's little phrases you read,
and don't think of much, that all come together at the end and fit
into place; in short, it ran rings around HP.
There are too many writers these days that wirte second-rate storys
but just write them off as kiddie's ones instead, maybe clipping off a
bit there and adding some there.
Shadowcory
Ah. Right. What he said.
Igenlode
[snip]
> Wheras HP is just things happening after another, WFM is linked,
> everything happening for a reason. There's little phrases you read,
> and don't think of much, that all come together at the end and fit
> into place; in short, it ran rings around HP.
>
<blinks> Frankly, I'm at a total loss to understand the continual
Potter-bashing on this newsgroup. If it were fans of any other cult
author I'd say people were feeling *threatened*... but Pratchett books
are surely scarcely in danger of being dethroned!
"Little phrases you read, and don't think of much, that all come
together at the end and fit into place" more or less *sums up* Harry
Potter; they're detective stories, deliberate exercises in misdirection
a la Agatha Christie, only (with one egregious exception) with less of
a reliance on cheating.
The other, fully-justified, basis of the Potter appeal is the level of
little background details that show up and have nothing to do with the
plot (other than helping to screen those details that *will* prove to be
vital) - world-building. What sorts of toys do Harry's wizard-born
contemporaries amuse themselves with? How do wizards do housework? What
do the various departments at the Ministry of Magic handle? What sort
of stories do you get in a wizard scandal-rag?
That sort of detail is why people keep on re-reading once they've found
out whodunnit, and is what is chiefly lacking from the vast majority of
Rowling's fan-fiction imitators - and what makes the better fan-fiction
stand out. It's the equivalent of Pratchettian deadpan puns and
footnotes in establishing the author's characteristic style.
--
Igenlode <Igen...@nym.alias.net> Lurker Extraordinaire
Never surrender - never give up!
Andrew Irish
> On 13 Aug 2003 Shadowcory wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>Wheras HP is just things happening after another, WFM is linked,
>>everything happening for a reason. There's little phrases you read,
>>and don't think of much, that all come together at the end and fit
>>into place; in short, it ran rings around HP.
>>
>
> <blinks> Frankly, I'm at a total loss to understand the continual
> Potter-bashing on this newsgroup. If it were fans of any other cult
> author I'd say people were feeling *threatened*... but Pratchett books
> are surely scarcely in danger of being dethroned!
Scarcely? I doubt they ever will be :)
> "Little phrases you read, and don't think of much, that all come
> together at the end and fit into place" more or less *sums up* Harry
> Potter;
I'd agree with this - you don't often notice it, but some little
seemingly throwaway lines point to bigger events later. I was reading a
Potter community on LiveJournal the other day where they were discussing
exactly this. (I don't make a habit of that, I was bored and it was
linked to :) )
--
Andrew
John Andrew Fairhurst
mellon_c...@btopenworld.com says...
> i was referring more to the old "harry had evil parents who made him live in
> the basement".
>
Relatives - Aunt was his mother's sister. And your complaint is still
only a part of the "Pool of Story" (and real life I fear) thingy.
--
John Fairhurst
In Association with Amazon worldwide:
http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/Books/DrWho/
Dr Who Books and Programmes
Region 1 & 2 DVDs and Videos!
Steve840750530
>} } >events of NW and the start of G! G! Plenty of time for dozens of women
>
>} } >to bring him down:-)
>} }
>} } <Boggle>
>} }
>} } One at a time or all together...?!
>}
>} Rugby tackle.
>
>Surely if there are several of them at the same time it would form a
>ruck...
>
>8-)
>
>--
>yours aye,
> Tom
>
Steve