The Shootout (MAA Spoilers)
Thomas Bahr
First of, a bit of spoiler space:
Ok, here it comes:
I am usually not the type to read a book real close and pay attention
to every detail, but after I had managed to get my copy of MAA back
from my brother [1] I finally could read it again, and something
bothered me about the final fight between Vimes and Cruces. I reread
the passage closely and noticed something:
When Vimes catches Cruces in the sewers under the Assassins Guild (p.
353 in my pb) Cruces has just put new pipes in the Gonne, so it now
has six shots in it, right? Well, now note the following:
1 shot goes of as the two wrestle with each other ("the gonne exploded
... something zinged off Vimes helmet")
The 2nd shot goes of as soon as Vimes has the gonne under control (or
the gonne has Vimes under control)
Vimes uses #3 to shoot off the lock to the door to the Guild.
#4 and #5 are used to frighten off the Assassins.
#6 is again used to shoot open a lock, this time to Cruces office.
This means that when Vimes confronts Cruces and during the whole time
Carrot talks Vimes out of shooting Cruces, the gonne HAS NOT GOT ANY
BULLETS in it. At first I thought that was supposed to be a special
joke, perhaps a clever reference to TV shows where the hero never runs
out of ammo, but:
The 7th shot goes of after Carrot kills Cruces (p. 360)
So I would say it is either a case of trousers of time bifurcating in
a _very_ short space of time or a really powerful story putting the
laws of mathematics out of business for a time. (Or of course pTerry
could have made a mistake ;-)
Comments, anyone?
Regards,
Thomas
[1] Ok, so I took the book out of his bookshelf when he was not
looking, but it was my copy ;-)
add '.at' to adress to mail - sorry
--
"Sometime it is better to light a flamethrower
than to curse the darkness."
Terry Pratchett
CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFORT
<six shots during plot snipped>
>The 7th shot goes off
So what? That's a trick that seems to work for several westerns - you have one
bullet ready - and THEN you fill up the sixth chamber before you fire it. I
don't know whether that's actually possible not ever having handled one myself,
but that's a recurring thing in shootouts. Probably needs a certain type of gun
and/or bullet to work. But the whole idea of counting and miscounting must have
been used several times.
Catja
Thomas Bahr
ca...@aber.ac.uk (CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFORT) thought that the world
(or at least alt.books.pratchett) should know that:
>>The 7th shot goes off
>
>
>So what? That's a trick that seems to work for several westerns - you have one
>bullet ready - and THEN you fill up the sixth chamber before you fire it. I
>don't know whether that's actually possible not ever having handled one myself,
>but that's a recurring thing in shootouts.
Yes, that would be possible (AFAIK - I don't have first-hand
experience about guns either), but given the heated nature of the
pursuit I doubt whether Cruces would have had the time to prepare a
7th shot. (And at the start of the pursuit the gonne was definitely
empty).
> Probably needs a certain type of gun
>and/or bullet to work. But the whole idea of counting and miscounting must have
>been used several times.
>
I noted that the phenomen of the hero never running out of ammo is
common in TV shows, and I also have some vague recollection of a Dirty
Harry quote (something like "How many shots do I have left? You know,
after all this excitement I am not sure myself.") but I think pTerry
already had his version of that in G!G!.
I still doubt that pTerry did this on purpose, but who knows?
And yes, counting shots fired in a gunfight is nitpicking <g> .
Regards,
Thomas
Lars Duening
CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFORT <ca...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
> <six shots during plot snipped>
>
>
> >The 7th shot goes off
>
>
> So what? That's a trick that seems to work for several westerns - you have
> one bullet ready - and THEN you fill up the sixth chamber before you fire
> it. I don't know whether that's actually possible not ever having handled
> one myself, but that's a recurring thing in shootouts. Probably needs a
> certain type of gun and/or bullet to work.
This is possible only if the gonne is some kind of pistol ("automatic"?), but
then you usually don't count in chambers.
It doesn't work with western-style revolvers.
--
Lars Duening; la...@cableinet.co.uk
elfin
Lars Duening wrote in message
>CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFORT wrote:
>
>> <six shots during plot snipped>
>>
>>
>> >The 7th shot goes off
>>
>>
>> So what? That's a trick that seems to work for several westerns - you
have
>> one bullet ready - and THEN you fill up the sixth chamber before you fire
>> it. I don't know whether that's actually possible not ever having handled
>> one myself, but that's a recurring thing in shootouts. Probably needs a
>> certain type of gun and/or bullet to work.
>
>This is possible only if the gonne is some kind of pistol ("automatic"?),
but
>then you usually don't count in chambers.
>
>It doesn't work with western-style revolvers.
I seem to remember that someone, possibly the Lone Ranger,
had a special gun that had 7 chambers to catch out those that
had only 6, ie. they assumed he only had 6 & he therefore won
the `shoot-out`.IIRC that is.
elfin
Stephen Litterst
Lars Duening wrote in message
<1d4igea.u2p...@usr102-edi.cableinet.co.uk>...
>CATHERINE ALEXANDRA PAFORT <ca...@aber.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> <six shots during plot snipped>
>>
>>
>> >The 7th shot goes off
>>
>>
>> So what? That's a trick that seems to work for several westerns -
you have
>> one bullet ready - and THEN you fill up the sixth chamber before
you fire
>> it. I don't know whether that's actually possible not ever having
handled
>> one myself, but that's a recurring thing in shootouts. Probably
needs a
>> certain type of gun and/or bullet to work.
>
>This is possible only if the gonne is some kind of pistol
("automatic"?), but
>then you usually don't count in chambers.
>
>It doesn't work with western-style revolvers.
But the gonne is not a revolver. It may be that you can load one
charge in the chamber and then mount the rack of pipes.
But this gives Cruces credit for being able to prepare a separate
charge of No. 1 powder.
Steve L.
Marcie
> > <six shots during plot snipped>
> >
> >
> > >The 7th shot goes off
[snip]
Well, here's one easier explanation: it's been a long time since I read
Men At Arms, but I don't believe it says anywhere that the Gonne can
only hold six bullets. Who knows, on the Discworld maybe they hold
eight...
--Marcie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Every once in a while you have to cross the line just to know it's
there."
--"Dr. Katz"
http://www.amherst.edu/~makligma
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Stuart Painting
In article <34E869...@amherst.edu>, Marcie
<URL:mailto:makl...@amherst.edu> wrote:
> > > <six shots during plot snipped>
> > >
> > >
> > > >The 7th shot goes off
>
> [snip]
>
> Well, here's one easier explanation: it's been a long time since I read
> Men At Arms, but I don't believe it says anywhere that the Gonne can
> only hold six bullets. Who knows, on the Discworld maybe they hold
> eight...
It does, you know. Page 175 of paperback:
"It looked like a short set of Pan pipes, provided Pan was
restricted to six notes, all of them the same."
stuart
--
Doctorum Adamus cum Flabello Dulci
Foul Ole Ron
>But the gonne is not a revolver. It may be that you can load one
>charge in the chamber and then mount the rack of pipes.
Hmm... the pipes are discarded after use (on the roof, for
example). This to me gives the impression that they are needed
for the firing; i think the pipes _are_ the chambers, and
function as ...(what's the english word? the thing that is left
in the chamber after a bullet has been shot [1]) as well.
>But this gives Cruces credit for being able to prepare a separate
>charge of No. 1 powder.
>
>Steve L.
Greetz, FOR
[1] or thrown out by the gun, dependent of the type. Mind, my
'knowledge' of gun mechanisms comes only from detective novels...
Duri Price
Foul Ole Ron <foul.o...@wxs.nl> wrote :
> Hmm... the pipes are discarded after use (on the roof, for
> example). This to me gives the impression that they are needed
> for the firing; i think the pipes _are_ the chambers, and
> function as ...(what's the english word? the thing that is left
> in the chamber after a bullet has been shot [1]) as well.
The word is "casing", I believe. At least, all my military buddies call it
that. Apparently, you don't want to get hit with them as they are ejected.
Presumably, the small explosion causes them to heat up a *wee* little bit.
Karyn, Lurking about.
Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.
Walker
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
to a page where "Duri Price" <kra...@primenet.com> has written...
>The word is "casing", I believe. At least, all my military buddies call it
>that. Apparently, you don't want to get hit with them as they are ejected.
>Presumably, the small explosion causes them to heat up a *wee* little bit.
>Karyn, Lurking about.
>Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.
>
I got the feeling, from the general use and shape, that the pipes were a
"magazine" or whatever they call them these days. No that that answers
the question. :)
[The candle flickers as Walker once again resumes his poring over
the Histories] Walker -==(UDIC)==-
To mail me (I wish ;): Change the spam.disembowelling to shannara
Dave Howe
In our last episode, Wal...@Spam.disembowelling.demon.co.uk (Walker)
was heard to say:
>In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>to a page where "Duri Price" <kra...@primenet.com> has written...
>
>I got the feeling, from the general use and shape, that the pipes were a
>"magazine" or whatever they call them these days. No that that answers
>the question. :)
Hmm. I seem to remember from my younger days[1] (leans heavily on
walking stick, pulls pipe out of mouth, gets nostalgic[2]) That some
WWI machine guns had a 'clip' of a horizontal metal bar, cabable of
holding several dozen cartriges(?sp), and that the bar fed in at the
left hand side. While I believe that the cartriges were still
individual items (and just held together for speed) I always imagine
the gonne working the same way (after all, the cartriges COULD have
been manufactured as part of the bar, and the entire bar discarded
after use
>[The candle flickers as Walker once again resumes his poring over
>the Histories] Walker -==(UDIC)==-
>
>To mail me (I wish ;): Change the spam.disembowelling to shannara
>
[1] No, from reading Commando comix (do merkins have them?) I was not
THAT violent as a youngster
[2] The nostalgia you kids have nowadays is nowhere near the kind WE
used to get
[3] <and no, there isn't a link for this> Not that I am old enough to
really do this sort of pose - 29 and a "bit"
__--== DHowe (is at) Tecsun.Demon.CoUk ==--__
Cybercat
>I got the feeling, from the general use and shape, that the pipes were a
>"magazine" or whatever they call them these days. No that that answers
>the question. :)
We[1] usually call them 'clips'. However, the pipes in the gonne don't
seem to work like a clip. In a clip the bullets usually move (because
of a spring) so when one bullet is fired it gets expelled and the
others move up one place. In the gonne, the complete clip moves
through the gonne instead.
I don't know whether this construction would allow a 7th bullet in the
chamer or not, as it seems to be somewhere between a pistol and a
revolver. It might be possible as you could give it a state where none
of the pipes is behind the barrel, something you couldn't do in a
revolver which has the pipes in a circle instead of in a line.
[1] We as in my RPG friends and I. But as we're Dutch this might not
really be the correct term.
--
"'I wonder how far the barometer's sunk?' he said.
'All der way,' said Detritus gloomyly. 'Trust me on dis.'"
AFP Code 1.0 ANL$>C$ d s+: a- UP+ R F++ h+ P--- OSD--: C? M-
pp--- L c- B+ Cn+:+ PT+++ Pu63 5+ X+ MT++ e+(++) r! !y+ end
Glenn Andrews
SigInt reports message <6ca6nn$g...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> from
Stephen Litterst <slit...@worldnet.att.net> intecepted. Text follows:
>>
>>> <six shots during plot snipped>
>>>
>>>
>>> >The 7th shot goes off
>>>
>
>
>charge in the chamber and then mount the rack of pipes.
>
>charge of No. 1 powder.
From the picrure of the Gonne on the hardback, it appears that the gonne
works like a revolver, but with a flat row of chambers and a rack-and-
pinion mechanism, rather than a set of revolving chambers.
Also, the gonne does not use cartridge technology, but the old flintlock
style of bullet and powder. The rack of chambers means six can be
prepared beforehand and loaded incredibly quickly., compared to the old
flintlock pistols.
Given this arrangement you cannot have a shell in the barrel and six in
the chambers, since the firing holes are in the chambers, and two
bullets would collide. The gun would almost certainly explode and if you
were really lucky you'd just get badly burned when this happened.
The racks are not disposable in the way cartrige cases are, since there
are only three of them. The fact that Cruces lost a set on the roof of
the opera house gave him a disadvantage.
Regards,
Glenn.
--
"Existem Seule si Servillo"
Glenn Andrews, Dangerous and on the edge of a Vipers sting.
gand...@qvetitice.demon.co.ukq http://www.vetitice.demon.co.uk/home.html
Hint: There are no 'q's in my email address
Walker
In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:55:03 GMT,
>Wal...@Spam.disembowelling.demon.co.uk (Walker) wrote:
>
>>I got the feeling, from the general use and shape, that the pipes were a
>>"magazine" or whatever they call them these days. No that that answers
>>the question. :)
>
>We[1] usually call them 'clips'. However, the pipes in the gonne don't
>seem to work like a clip. In a clip the bullets usually move (because
>of a spring) so when one bullet is fired it gets expelled and the
>others move up one place. In the gonne, the complete clip moves
>through the gonne instead.
Ah! I always wondered what the difference between clips and magazines
was, Doom never really explained. ;)
Glenn Goens
I don't have the book handy so I can't check for contra-indications
but there is always the possibility that one of the "clips" held
more than six rounds...
Glenn Goens -- gdgo...@mail.idt.net
Cybercat
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:51:05 +0000, Glenn Andrews
<gand...@qvetitice.demon.co.ukq> wrote:
>From the picrure of the Gonne on the hardback, it appears that the gonne
>works like a revolver, but with a flat row of chambers and a rack-and-
>pinion mechanism, rather than a set of revolving chambers.
>
Given his history of getting things perfect ;) I don't think
conclusions based on Josh's drawings have much validity.
>Also, the gonne does not use cartridge technology, but the old flintlock
>style of bullet and powder. The rack of chambers means six can be
>prepared beforehand and loaded incredibly quickly., compared to the old
>flintlock pistols.
>
>Given this arrangement you cannot have a shell in the barrel and six in
>the chambers, since the firing holes are in the chambers, and two
>bullets would collide. The gun would almost certainly explode and if you
>were really lucky you'd just get badly burned when this happened.
>
This is the most likely way to do it, but it *is* possible to make a
construction which allows a 7th shot. I must agree though there's no
mention about a system like that in the book and it's all probably
just a mistake.
Darren
<snipped everything>
<summary>
If 6 shots were fired during the chase how come there was a seventh shot
to be fired later??
</summary>
I still havn't noticed the obvious explanation (well to me anyhow)
We know that there are 3 sets of racks IIRC
one set lost = 2 sets of racks.. both loaded
fire 6 shots during the chase...
change rack to second rack...
fire seventh shot...
OR at anytime after firing the first shot in the chase scene change rack
(we don't know that the first rack was full at the start of the chase
right.. and I cannot remember after how many shots the gonne changed
hands...)
corrections welcome... its been a while since I read _MAA_
TTFN
Darren
--
Life is a sexually transmitted disease.
anonymous.
Darren_...@msn.com
Dick Eney
In article <34edc5a...@news.lspace.org>,
Cybercat <cybe...@mail.introweb.nl> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:51:05 +0000, Glenn Andrews
><gand...@qvetitice.demon.co.ukq> wrote:
>
>>From the picrure of the Gonne on the hardback, it appears that the gonne
>>works like a revolver, but with a flat row of chambers and a rack-and-
>>pinion mechanism, rather than a set of revolving chambers.
>>
>Given his history of getting things perfect ;) I don't think
>conclusions based on Josh's drawings have much validity.
True, but IIRC Terry did say that Josh got the gonne just about right.[1]
=Tamar
[1] It's hard to be wrong _all_ the time.
--
Michael The Roach Janßen
In article <ant16230...@zedtoo.demon.co.uk>,
stu...@zedtoo.demon.co.uk shook the world by stating...
>> > > <six shots during plot snipped>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > >The 7th shot goes off
>>
>>
>> Well, here's one easier explanation: it's been a long time since I read
>> Men At Arms, but I don't believe it says anywhere that the Gonne can
>> only hold six bullets. Who knows, on the Discworld maybe they hold
>> eight...
>
>It does, you know. Page 175 of paperback:
>
>"It looked like a short set of Pan pipes, provided Pan was
>restricted to six notes, all of them the same."
Sorry, but that doesn't mean that's valid for *all* 'clips'. The clips
are hand-made, and as they move through the gonne in a linear fashion,
the length of the clip is only limited by practical considerations (being
obvious, hindering, that sort of stuff). There's nothing that contradicts
the possibility of one 'clip' having only four chambers, and another
ten...
--
Michael "The Roach" Janszen (AFP NLMeet reporter)
The Official Michelena Riosa Testosterone Brigade
Peerless Leader of the Post-Apocapalyptic Forces
Charter Member AFP Blame Society
Spammer trap - when replying by e-mail,
drop the last letter of the address...
Stuart Painting
In article <MPG.f57ff45f...@news.lspace.org>,
Michael The Roach Janßen <URL:mailto:ro...@earthling.netz> wrote:
> In article <ant16230...@zedtoo.demon.co.uk>,
> stu...@zedtoo.demon.co.uk shook the world by stating...
> >
> >
> >"It looked like a short set of Pan pipes, provided Pan was
> >restricted to six notes, all of them the same."
>
> Sorry, but that doesn't mean that's valid for *all* 'clips'. The clips
> are hand-made, and as they move through the gonne in a linear fashion,
> the length of the clip is only limited by practical considerations (being
> obvious, hindering, that sort of stuff). There's nothing that contradicts
> the possibility of one 'clip' having only four chambers, and another
> ten...
True, but IIRC one William of Occam had something to say about
assumptions <g>
Consider: The man (or more likely dwarf) making the Gonne would
presumably have been working from LdQ's drawing (as Hammerhock
was when he repaired it). The idea of making the clips different
sizes would require more insight into the workings of the gonne
than is required to "make me the object shown in this drawing".
It strikes me as more likely they're going to be the same size.
Anything else smacks of "clutching at straws".
Stuart Painting
In article <6cks3q$qck$1...@library.lspace.org>, Darren
<URL:mailto:Darren_...@msn.com> wrote:
> <snipped everything>
>
> <summary>
> If 6 shots were fired during the chase how come there was a seventh shot
> to be fired later??
> </summary>
>
> I still havn't noticed the obvious explanation (well to me anyhow)
>
> We know that there are 3 sets of racks IIRC
>
> one set lost = 2 sets of racks.. both loaded
>
> fire 6 shots during the chase...
>
> change rack to second rack...
>
> fire seventh shot...
I've just re-read the appropriate section, and... it doesn't stack up.
6 shots were fired in the tunnels (the last 4 at Angua). This prompts
Vimes to shout "That's six shots, you b*st*rd! I've got you now!"
(p.351 of paperback).
Cruces then takes off, with Vimes in pursuit. A bit later on, Vimes
catches him up, "fighting for breath and hammering another rack of
pipes into the gonne" (p.353 of paperback). This strongly suggests
the old rack really was empty.
On page 354:
Shot 1 - as they struggle for ownership of the gonne.
Vimes now has the gonne.
Shot 2 - at Cruces, narrowly missing him.
On page 355:
Shot 3 - at the door lock
Shot 4 - over the trainee Assassins' heads
Shot 5 - at the chandelier
On page 356:
Shot 6 - at the door lock.
Despite this being the 6th shot, the characters (in particular the
gonne itself) still behave as if there were more shots to come.
On page 359:
Vimes drops the gonne after Carrot arrives. Cruces then "dived for
the gonne and scooped it up."
Eventually, on page 360:
Shot 7: as Carrot kills Cruces with his sword.
Right. We now have two "Discworld" possibilities:
(a) the maker of the gonne made 2 racks with 6 shots and 1 rack
with at least 7 shots. Given that LdQ's diagram clearly had
6 shots in a rack (p.177 of paperback) I think we can count
this as "unlikely".
(b) the maker of the gonne made 1 rack with 6 shots and 2 racks
with at least 7 shots. For this to be the case we have to
suppose that Cruces would go after Vimes with a partly-used
rack in the gonne which nevertheless had exactly 6 shots left.
If anything, this is less likely than option (a).
and one "external" possibility:
(c) Pterry had the gonne fire too many shots. Since it is unlikely
that _he_ can't count, one must suppose that he did it as
something of an in-joke (the way the good guy's six-shooter
becomes a twenty-shooter in those B-westerns), and it gives
the reader something to pat themselves on the back for
having "discovered"...
My reason for supposing that option (c) is the more likely hinges
on the observation that the dramatic tension would not be much
altered by removing (say) shot 7 from the narrative.
Anthony W. Youngman
In article <01bd3c1b$f68a8a60$cfc0a5ce@Pkraken>, Duri Price
<kra...@primenet.com> writes
>
>
>Foul Ole Ron <foul.o...@wxs.nl> wrote :
>> Hmm... the pipes are discarded after use (on the roof, for
>> example). This to me gives the impression that they are needed
>> for the firing; i think the pipes _are_ the chambers, and
>> function as ...(what's the english word? the thing that is left
>> in the chamber after a bullet has been shot [1]) as well.
>
>that. Apparently, you don't want to get hit with them as they are ejected.
>Presumably, the small explosion causes them to heat up a *wee* little bit.
>Karyn, Lurking about.
>Ducunt volentem fata, nolentem trahunt.
>
shoot right handed. With most automatic guns apparently this is a bit
frightening as the cartridges fly across millimetres in front of your
face. But apparently one gun throws backwards. They're meant to go over
your shoulder, but if you're firing left handed ...
[1] 'ware cross-threading!
--
Anthony W. Youngman
wol at thewolery d demon d co d uk | The L-Space Web-http://www.lspace.org/
Ask Christopher Robin where it is. | The Ultimate Terry Pratchett fan site!
If replying by e-mail please mail wol.
Anything else may get missed amongst the spam.
Anthony W. Youngman
In article <34ecc611...@news.demon.co.uk>, Walker <Wal...@Spam.dis
embowelling.demon.co.uk> writes
>In the candlelit library of the darkened Keep, a book flicks open
>to a page where cybe...@mail.introweb.nl (Cybercat) has written...
>>On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:55:03 GMT,
>>Wal...@Spam.disembowelling.demon.co.uk (Walker) wrote:
>>
>>>I got the feeling, from the general use and shape, that the pipes were a
>>>"magazine" or whatever they call them these days. No that that answers
>>>the question. :)
>>
>>We[1] usually call them 'clips'. However, the pipes in the gonne don't
>>seem to work like a clip. In a clip the bullets usually move (because
>>of a spring) so when one bullet is fired it gets expelled and the
>>others move up one place. In the gonne, the complete clip moves
>>through the gonne instead.
>
>Ah! I always wondered what the difference between clips and magazines
>was, Doom never really explained. ;)
>
>
bullets that clipped onto the gun, and emptied as the gun was fired cf
the old 30-bullet magazines on the Bren Gun for example. Or like the
drums on the WW1 aircraft Lewis guns.
On the other hand I thought a clip was just a piece of metal holding
bullets in a form convenient to load into a gun. For example, to load a
modern pistol, I thought they had an in-built "magazine" in the handle.
You open the magazine, put the clip against it and slide the bullets in,
then throw the clip away before using the gun.
Jens Kristoffer Nielsen
>Right. We now have two "Discworld" possibilities:
>(a) the maker of the gonne made 2 racks with 6 shots and 1 rack
> with at least 7 shots. Given that LdQ's diagram clearly had
> 6 shots in a rack (p.177 of paperback) I think we can count
> this as "unlikely".
I think it could be very likely. The gonne was after all made by
Leonardo, and we know he often changes things while making them. He
might have felt it right to make a 7-shot rack.
/Kristoffer
--
One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them,
One IP to bring them all and in the zone bind them.
Benoit_Poste
Stuart Painting wrote:
>
<frantic sniping snipsnipsnipsnipsnip >
> Right. We now have two "Discworld" possibilities:
>
> (a) the maker of the gonne made 2 racks with 6 shots and 1 rack
> with at least 7 shots. Given that LdQ's diagram clearly had
> 6 shots in a rack (p.177 of paperback) I think we can count
> this as "unlikely".
>
> (b) the maker of the gonne made 1 rack with 6 shots and 2 racks
> with at least 7 shots. For this to be the case we have to
> suppose that Cruces would go after Vimes with a partly-used
> rack in the gonne which nevertheless had exactly 6 shots left.
> If anything, this is less likely than option (a).
>
> and one "external" possibility:
>
> (c) Pterry had the gonne fire too many shots. Since it is unlikely
> that _he_ can't count, one must suppose that he did it as
> something of an in-joke (the way the good guy's six-shooter
> becomes a twenty-shooter in those B-westerns), and it gives
> the reader something to pat themselves on the back for
> having "discovered"...
>
> My reason for supposing that option (c) is the more likely hinges
> on the observation that the dramatic tension would not be much
> altered by removing (say) shot 7 from the narrative.
Err ... what about a last option ?
(d) Pterry had indeed the gonne firing too many shots, as a thing driven
... err ... powered by it's mind or purpose. Remember the mighty org ...
the UU's organ (not that it seems better ... seen the shape of these
sticks of glue ?) pumping itself all alone (I promise next time I post
I'll find a better formulation) when the Librarian plays it in Soul
Music ? Ridcully even has to shoot it in the bellows (or whatever u
spell it). Well the gonne has a mind of its own, I guess it could power
itself even with it's rack being empty. That's how I understood it when
I read the novel at least.
Hoping it helps,
Benoit.
--
Benoit Poste
/>________________________________________________
*//////{[]________________________________________________>
\>
Master student, 2nd year
Kumazawa Laboratory
Department of Computer Science
Tokyo Institute of Technology
(Foreign student from SUPELEC (France))
E-Mail: bpo...@cs.titech.ac.jp or
bpo...@supelec-rennes.fr
Stuart Painting
In article <34f0b28f...@news.lspace.org>, Jens Kristoffer Nielsen
<URL:mailto:j...@it.dk> wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:38:18 +0000 (GMT), Stuart Painting
> <stu...@zedtoo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >(a) the maker of the gonne made 2 racks with 6 shots and 1 rack
> > with at least 7 shots. Given that LdQ's diagram clearly had
> > 6 shots in a rack (p.177 of paperback) I think we can count
> > this as "unlikely".
>
> Leonardo, and we know he often changes things while making them. He
> might have felt it right to make a 7-shot rack.
A nice idea, but nothing much to support it in the text.
For a start, one of the other racks is explicitly stated as having
6 shots (p.316 of paperback). If we accept there were exactly 3
racks (I can't find that mentioned anywhere) this means that LdQ
made two 6-shot racks and one with at least 7 shots. Why only one
different? If he was that given to experimenting why not make all
of them different sizes?
Stuart Painting
In article <34F14AF5...@cs.titech.ac.jp>, Benoit_Poste
<URL:mailto:bpo...@cs.titech.ac.jp> wrote:
>
> Err ... what about a last option ?
> (d) Pterry had indeed the gonne firing too many shots, as a thing driven
> ... err ... powered by it's mind or purpose. Remember the mighty org ...
> the UU's organ (not that it seems better ... seen the shape of these
> sticks of glue ?) pumping itself all alone (I promise next time I post
> I'll find a better formulation) when the Librarian plays it in Soul
> Music ? Ridcully even has to shoot it in the bellows (or whatever u
> spell it). Well the gonne has a mind of its own, I guess it could power
> itself even with it's rack being empty. That's how I understood it when
> I read the novel at least.
Yes, there's some merit in that idea.
My only criticism is that, if Pterry did intend that interpretation,
why didn't he draw more attention to it?
Michael The Roach Janßen
In article <7sb7MIAn...@thewolery.demon.co.uk>,
thew...@nospam.demon.co.uk shook the world by stating...(chomp)
>>Ah! I always wondered what the difference between clips and magazines
>>was, Doom never really explained. ;)
>>
>On the other hand I thought a clip was just a piece of metal holding
>bullets in a form convenient to load into a gun. For example, to load a
>modern pistol, I thought they had an in-built "magazine" in the handle.
>You open the magazine, put the clip against it and slide the bullets in,
>then throw the clip away before using the gun.
Sorry, but modern pistols do not work that way. Take for example the
Walther PP/PPK which I have had experience with. (1)
The Walther normally has a 7 bullet clip that works with a spring. You
slide the bullets in one over the other, and when it is full, slide the
clip into the handle, where it stays until you decide you want to either
reload or stop being bloody dangerous. As shots are fired, the casings
are ejected, and a new round is loaded into the firing mechanism with
help of the spring and the recoil (but I hope we don't have to explain
just *how* an automatic pistol works...). As you can have one round in
the firing mechanism ('under the hammer') and still have a full clip in
the gun, the maximum number of shots you can loose without having to
reload is 8.
AFAIK, the clip in well-nigh all automatic pistols works like that.
(1) Place I used to work for, all employees were supposed to have some
weapons training and regular shooting sessions on a cardboard target (big
square thing, not even the human-shaped ones...). Made me *really*
nervous when one day I found myself to be the top scorer of the day
during one of these trainings - 96 points out of 100...
Buddha M Buck
Michael "The Roach" Janßen <ro...@earthling.netz> wrote:
> In article <7sb7MIAn...@thewolery.demon.co.uk>,
> thew...@nospam.demon.co.uk shook the world by stating...
> >In article <34ecc611...@news.demon.co.uk>, Walker <Wal...@Spam.dis
> >embowelling.demon.co.uk> writes
> (chomp)
> >>Ah! I always wondered what the difference between clips and magazines
> >>was, Doom never really explained. ;)
> >>
> (chomp)
> >On the other hand I thought a clip was just a piece of metal holding
> >bullets in a form convenient to load into a gun. For example, to load a
> >modern pistol, I thought they had an in-built "magazine" in the handle.
> >You open the magazine, put the clip against it and slide the bullets in,
> >then throw the clip away before using the gun.
> Sorry, but modern pistols do not work that way. Take for example the
> Walther PP/PPK which I have had experience with. (1)
Not according to the FAQ for rec.guns (available from
http://www.recguns.com), which includes the following definition of
terms:
# A magazine is where cartridges are stored until they are loaded into
# the chamber. Pistols, except for revolvers, often have a removable
# magazine in the grip frame. Rifles normally have a magazine, which
# may or may not be detachable, below the action. The part of the
# magazine that a spring pushes against to keep cartridges in position
# to be fed into the chamber is called the follower. While on the
# subject of magazines, we should mention clips, which are not part of
# a firearm, but are used to hold a number of rounds of ammunition
# together to facilitate loading them into a firearm or magazine. The
# terms "clip" and "magazine" are not interchangeable, that is,
# magazines are not clips, and clips are not magazines, but the terms
# are often misused.
Personally, I've only worked with one firearm that has used a clip,
the M1 Garand rifle. It has a clip that holds 8 rounds, and is
inserted (through the action) into a fixed magazine. When the
magazine is empty, it ejects the clip and locks the bolt back.
Cybercat
On 26 Feb 1998 05:42:00 GMT, Buddha M Buck <bmb...@acsu.buffalo.edu>
wrote:
>
>Personally, I've only worked with one firearm that has used a clip,
>the M1 Garand rifle. It has a clip that holds 8 rounds, and is
>inserted (through the action) into a fixed magazine. When the
>magazine is empty, it ejects the clip and locks the bolt back.
If those definitions are correct, you can get clips for most revolvers
too. These are circular things holding 6 bullets used for quickloading
a revolver.
David G. Bell
In article <34f6fbf4...@news.lspace.org>
cybe...@mail.introweb.nl "Cybercat" writes:
> On 26 Feb 1998 05:42:00 GMT, Buddha M Buck <bmb...@acsu.buffalo.edu>
> wrote:
> >
> >Personally, I've only worked with one firearm that has used a clip,
> >the M1 Garand rifle. It has a clip that holds 8 rounds, and is
> >inserted (through the action) into a fixed magazine. When the
> >magazine is empty, it ejects the clip and locks the bolt back.
>
> If those definitions are correct, you can get clips for most revolvers
> too. These are circular things holding 6 bullets used for quickloading
> a revolver.
Most military bolt-action rifles used a charger-clip. This allows the
rapid loading of, typically, five rounds into the fixed magazine, but
wasn't itself inserted into the magazine. The SMLE actually had a ten-
round detachable box magazine, but the ammunition was issued in
chargers, and the second magazine issued with the gun was a spare, not
normally used.
Revolver speedloaders included half-moon clips, used to allow the
'rimless' .45 ACP round to be loaded into a revolver.
--
David G. Bell -- Farmer, SF Fan, Filker, Furry, and Punslinger..