-[R]- Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
robcraine
listening to a podcast recently and it was mentioned that this quote
comes from a speach (by some roman called Juvenal) which is basically
about how horrible women are and that they sleep around with anyone...
"I hear always the admonishment of my friends: "Bolt her in, constrain
her!" But who will guard
the guardians? The wife plans ahead and begins with
them!" (translation stolen from wiki)
My natural assumption is that Pterry is all knowing, so on the basis
that he knew the source of this quote, I'll be re-reading the Guards
novels with interest.
Anyone know if there's any allusions to the wider context of the
quote? other than custard jokes? ;)
Rob
--
Its been a while
RuneMaster
Randomly - Rebel in Time (Harry Harrison) has QCIC as an ultra-secret
agency keeping tabs on the ordinary secret ones like the CIA and FBI.
One of Heinlein's short stories (The Long Watch?) has a character called
Dahlquist using that expression. Or it may have been Space Cadets.
By the way, the usual English translation does not emphasise the reflexive
"ipsos" enough, as in "Who will guard those self-same guardians?"
--
Veistu hve rísta skal? Veistu hve ráða skal?
Veistu hve fáa skal? Veistu hve freista skal?
Veistu hve biðja skal? Veistu hve blóta skal?
Veistu hve senda skal? Veistu hve sóa skal?
Havamal . Stanza 144
Chris Gembara
wrote:
More modern examples listed here, which of course someone who must
have "In Pop Culture/Literature and Media" as his/her nemesis deleted
from the article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Quis_custodiet_ipsos_custodes%3F&action=historysubmit&diff=402883266&oldid=402882867
Chris Gembara
---------------------------
"Every day is great at your Junes~!" --Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4
Robert Carnegie
The context in Juvenal? Nothing springs to mind, these are pretty
much all-ages books, although the concept of the fox guarding the
henhouse comes to mind, as does in _Making Money_ pilfering by Mint
workers, which I believe Mr Bent describes as "very little" which
seems understatement given the horrific penalty for the least
offence. And also Moist's(?) mental observation that with Watchmen on
second jobs(?) as bank security guards, the gold in the vault /may/
stay put but a lot of coffee (he did say coffee?) and pens may appear
to go mysteriously missing.
But the scenario of appointing a third party guardian of a wife or
daughter's honour going wrong with hilarious predictability, no...?
It isn't done, in Pratchett. Well, it /is/ done, by Nanny Ogg quite a
lot in the past for instance, but almost always in those gaps between
paragraphs instead of numbered chapters. Where we don't see.
You could have a look at _Fanny Hill_ instead if you like.
I do wonder how Constable Carrot apparently got out of an extended
spell lodging with the seamstresses without getting stitched up. He
must have missed an astounding number of hints.
GaryN
news:op.vq55y...@acer-laptop.home:
<snip>
> Randomly - Rebel in Time (Harry Harrison) has QCIC as an ultra-secret
> agency keeping tabs on the ordinary secret ones like the CIA and FBI.
I remember that as being quite a good book, lost my copy years ago so I
can't check. IMO Harrison doesn't get the credit that he should as an
author.
> One of Heinlein's short stories (The Long Watch?) has a character
> called Dahlquist using that expression. Or it may have been Space
> Cadets.
>
> By the way, the usual English translation does not emphasise the
> reflexive "ipsos" enough, as in "Who will guard those self-same
> guardians?"
This is true, but translating Latin into English is always complicated.
The various tenses and the word order indicate who did what. To use an
easy example
"Habeus Corpus" means 'We have the body'
"Corpus Habes" means 'I have the body'
"Corpus Habet" means 'I did have the body'.
This one, just for fun, you can work out for yourselves, it's not directed
at anyone...:-)
"Te amat Iesus - ceteri te putant irrumatorem"[1]
gary
[1]X-treme Latin. ISBN 0-7553-1295-3
--
"Send Lawyers, Guns and Money. The shit has hit the fan"
Warren Zevon
GaryN
news:Xns9E928F1AD72BCg...@212.23.3.119:
Actually, given the current global situation this quote from the same
book might be more appropriate, again it is left to the reader to work
it out (hint - middle east)
'Dilige proximos tuos, utque illis ostendas te re vera diligera, mitte
decem legiones quae ianuas pulsent et quam dulcissime ab illis quaerunt,
num velint in tuum imperium recipi'
Should be assigned as the new USian slogan and excuse for invading
places instead of all that crap about 'Winning hearts and minds'
gary
Lesley Weston
There's no need to perpetuate the question anyway. The obvious answer is
"Eunuchs".
Lesley.
steveski
> In message <Xns9E928F1AD72BCg...@212.23.3.119>
> GaryN <ga...@scaryriders.com> wrote:
>> RuneMaster <runemast...@runesonline.com> wrote in
>> news:op.vq55y...@acer-laptop.home:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Randomly - Rebel in Time (Harry Harrison) has QCIC as an ultra-secret
>>> agency keeping tabs on the ordinary secret ones like the CIA and FBI.
>
>> I remember that as being quite a good book, lost my copy years ago so I
>> can't check. IMO Harrison doesn't get the credit that he should as an
>> author.
>>
>>> One of Heinlein's short stories (The Long Watch?) has a character
>>> called Dahlquist using that expression. Or it may have been Space
>>> Cadets.
>>>
>>> By the way, the usual English translation does not emphasise the
>>> reflexive "ipsos" enough, as in "Who will guard those self-same
>>> guardians?"
>
>> This is true, but translating Latin into English is always complicated.
>> The various tenses and the word order indicate who did what. To use an
>> easy example
>
>> "Habeus Corpus" means 'We have the body'
>> "Corpus Habes" means 'I have the body'
>> "Corpus Habet" means 'I did have the body'.
> Habet Corpus "There was a body around here somewhere. Now, where'd it
> go?"
"That's not my body . . ."
--
Steveski
GaryN
@mid.individual.net:
I like the John Cleese version of world politics and language, not in Latin
but in the sort of English you don't get these days... Can't find a clip
so the text will have to do.
From the BBC - by John Cleese.
ANNOUNCEMENT
The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent
terrorist threats and have therefore raised their security
level from "Miffed" to "Peeved." Soon, though,
security levels may be raised yet again to "Irritated" or
even "A Bit Cross." The English have not been "A Bit
Cross" since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly
ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from
"Tiresome" to "A Bloody Nuisance." The last time the
British issued a "Bloody Nuisance" warning level was in
1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.
The Scots have raised their threat level from "Pissed Off"
to "Let's get the Bastards." They don't have any other
levels. This is the reason they have been used on the
front line of the British army for the last 300 years.
The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its
terror alert level from "Run" to "Hide." The only two higher
levels in France are "Collaborate" and "Surrender." The rise was
precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France's
white flag factory, effectively paralyzing the country's
military capability.
Italy has increased the alert level from "Shout Loudly and
Excitedly" to "Elaborate Military Posturing." Two more
levels remain: "Ineffective Combat Operations" and "Change
Sides."
The Germans have increased their alert state from
"Disdainful Arrogance" to "Dress in Uniform and Sing
Marching Songs." They also have two higher levels:
"Invade a Neighbor" and "Lose."
Belgians, on the other hand, are all on holiday as usual; the
only threat they are worried about is NATO pulling out of
Brussels.
The Spanish are all excited to see their new submarines ready to
deploy. These beautifully designed subs have glass
bottoms so the new Spanish navy can get a really good look at
the old Spanish navy.
Australia , meanwhile, has raised its security level
from "No worries" to "She'll be right, Mate." Three more
escalation levels remain: "Crikey!","I think we'll
need to cancel the barbie this weekend," and "The barbie
is cancelled."
Finally Canada is at "That's not nice and please stop"
threat level, and has passed a bill in the House of Commons to
never raise the level any higher so's not to offend the terrorists.
gary...:-)
Daniel Orner
<snip>
That got a few chuckles out of me, thanks!
Reader in Invisible Writings
I heard/read recently that nobody spoke Classical Latin in the way it
was written. I understand that because writing was slow, scribes
invented clever rules to write down what was meant using the minimum
number of letters and words*. Thus to read what was written you needed
to know the rules, indirectly making scribes a closed shop and literacy
rarer than it may otherwise have been. The Greeks, or even earlier,
probably started it!
*almost a form of encoded short hand as it were.
--
Reader in Invisible Writings
Something to Ponder on!
Reader in Invisible Writings
Actually, when I read it I think I recalled the English version having
been used in contexts like "Who regulates the Police Complaints
procedure?" which at the time was the Chief Constable and led to the
"Independent Police Complaints" regime.
Nigel Stapley
"Independent Police Complaints Commission" operates - as a name - in the
same way that "People's Socialist Democratic Republic" used to; if you
didn't put those words in, no-one could possibly guess from its actions
that it was *any* of them.
--
Regards
Nigel Stapley
<reply-to will bounce>
Reader in Invisible Writings
regime - indicating the sense of the thing - as the real question is
whether TP knew of the original QCIC source or another authors reference
and was to illustrate where I had probably seen the plain English (and
who knows the quote) had been recently used.
A quick search shows that there is a Wikipedia article and many other
pages, including an article about the Audit Commission.
It appears that QCIC is common coinage (though rarer than Habius Corpus)
and not the preserve of Oxford Dons and learned writers.
Larry Moore
Just makes them infertile, not incorruptible :-)
cf. The Last Emperor
Lesley Weston
the harem than it is to leave politicians in charge of the Treasury.
Lesley.
Larry Moore
Even if either has no personal interest, they are vulnerable to suasion
and bribery from those less pure of heart.
Nigel
Cicero's secretary Tiro did invent short hand. Parts of his short
hand system are still in use - including the ampersand and the
abbreviations "i.e.", "n.b.", "e.g." and "etc."
Cheers,
Nigel.
John S. Wilkins
You sure about etc.? I thought that was a medieval invention.
--
John S. Wilkins, Associate, Philosophy, University of Sydney
http://evolvingthoughts.net
But al be that he was a philosophre,
Yet hadde he but litel gold in cofre
Bernard Peek
>>
>> Cicero's secretary Tiro did invent short hand. Parts of his short
>> hand system are still in use - including the ampersand and the
>> abbreviations "i.e.", "n.b.", "e.g." and "etc."
>>
> You sure about etc.? I thought that was a medieval invention.
Possibly very early medieval. I'm pretty sure I've seen it in 11th
Century Celtic manuscripts.
--
Bernard Peek
b...@shrdlu.com
steveski
And I thought that the ampersand was invented by the Victorians bu ICBW.
--
Steveski
John S. Wilkins
No. That goes back at least to late medieval times, as a florid ligature
of "et":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampersand
OED has the earliest use of "etc." in 1920! That can't be the earliest
usage. Prior to that, the form was "&c.", where, of course, "&" is "et",
which goes back to the 16th century.
GaryN
news:I_mdnYVd9Ma9vfXQ...@wightman.ca:
I wonder if Eunuchs are the origin of the phrase "He hasn't got the
bollocks to do <whatever>" or if the phrase came first and gave someone
the idea of eunuchs?
gary
Larry Moore
I would like to believe that we observed the difference between
entire mails and altered males in our animals first. :-)
Reader in Invisible Writings
More probably it's an insult implying the man is a woman, when being a
woman was considered to be frail and easily scared. Like most things of
this ilk it is in error!
Robert Carnegie
> Larry Moore <shirleyallan1...@gmail.com> wrote innews:I_mdnYVd9Ma9vfXQ...@wightman.ca:
I think of eunuchs as being more nervous after the event than before,
as you would be, although, what do you have left to lose? (Well, I
think you still have your willy, such as it is. And the various bits
that they would cut off the genius engineer to prevent him from ever
again creating a work equal to the one that you just bought from him.
Caveat emptor, you must be joking.)