Visit-The-Infidel-With-Explanatory-Pamphlets (a/k/a Washpot)
SJF 1959
of "The Discworld Companion" (holy horns gesture here) refers to but does not
explain the nickname.
Regards from Deborah
FAQ file: http://members.aol.com/SJF1959/index.html
Mailing list: http://www.listbot.com/subscribe/sjf1959.aol.com
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Dick Eney
SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
>I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
>My copy of "The Discworld Companion" (holy horns gesture here) refers to
>but does not explain the nickname.
I haven't any basis for this, but my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of
Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
bizarre Cockney slang habits).
=Tamar
Peter Ellis
>
>I haven't any basis for this, but my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of
>Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
>bizarre Cockney slang habits).
>
Also, it ties into the expression "tub-thumping", and sort-of-rhymes
with "tosspot"...
Peter
Gid Holyoake
to share with us:
> SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
> >My copy of "The Discworld Companion" (holy horns gesture here) refers to
> >but does not explain the nickname.
>
> I haven't any basis for this, but my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of
> Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
> bizarre Cockney slang habits).
Or possibly a play on the JW's publication with which they will happily
smite thee.. the Watchtower.. along with "a watched pot never boils"
sort of thing..
--
The Most Noble and Exalted Peculiar , Harem Master to Veiled Concubines
Guardian of the Sacred !!!!!'s , Defender of the Temple of AFPdoration
Click on http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~gidnsuzi/ for The Irrelevant Page
Terry Pratchett
>In article <199808101025...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
>>My copy of "The Discworld Companion" (holy horns gesture here) refers to
>>but does not explain the nickname.
>
>I haven't any basis for this, but my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of
>Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
>bizarre Cockney slang habits).
Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every
night has died out...:-)
--
Terry Pratchett
Caribou
Terry Pratchett wrote in message ...
OK search engine...
2 matches
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Psalms 60:8
Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia,
triumph thou because of me.
Psalms 108:9
Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia
will I triumph.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Found it. Now... Visit / Moab / Washpot / Edom - It's an anagram. Oh
no it isn't. Behind you!
Different sorts of cheese? Leatherwear ? Yeah, big help Terry.
Over to you guys.
Herbizmuth
SJF 1959
>>my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of
"visit" (substitute v for w and add bizarre Cockney slang habits).
>Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every night
has died out...:-)
What I love about this is that I hold a master's degree in theological studies
from Harvard University.[2] Obviously, I must have let my schooling get in the
way of my education. :-)
I guess I'd better trot out Strong's Concordance - unless Pterry is willing to
put my ignorance out of its misery.
[1] Besides the honor of having my question addressed, however obliquely, by
Pterry.
[2] So as not to blot the escutcheon of the dear old Crimson, I have to plead
Jewishness as an extenuating circumstance. Whatever my academic interests may
be, I don't read the King James Version or the New Testament as a nightly act
of personal piety, and I suspect that "washpot" was inspired by some
combination thereof.
DinkiPixie
tonight, Stephen?
--
Angela MacKellar
E-mails to dink...@spamnet.co.uk but replace spam with zet
In bed with ME/CFS on http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/dinkipix/me/bed.htm
Katrina Stelzner
>Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia,
>triumph thou because of me.
>
>Psalms 108:9
>Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia
>will I triumph.
>I think that washpot might be another word for what used to go under
the bed at night. Going to the loo is also known as paying a *visit*.
could it be?
--
Trina
*****When I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!*****
Miq
>>>> Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
>
>>Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every night
>has died out...:-)
>
>I guess I'd better trot out Strong's Concordance - unless Pterry is willing to
>put my ignorance out of its misery.
My Cruden's Concordance is no help at all - 'Moab is my washpot' -
twice, apparently - which doesn't seem to help much.
I can only fall back on truly feeble speculations... is there a
ritual way of washing one's hands before handling the Holy Book?
Ho hum.
--
Miq - afpiance to the honest MEG
Afpcode 1.1: AEn/Hu d+ s: a U+ R+ F++ !h P--- OSD-:- ?C M- pp---
L+ c B+ Cn? PT Pu66 5! !X MT e++>++ r% y-- end
SJF 1959
>Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia,
>triumph thou because of me.
>
>Psalms 108:9
>Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia
>will I triumph.
Ahhhh. We have some interesting hermeneutic differences driving the
translations. Here is Psalms 60:8, from two traditional Jewish editions:
"Moav is my wash basin, upon Edom I will cast my lock.
Philistia, join yourself with me." (Metsudah Tehillim, Rabbi A. Davis, trans.)
"Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I will cast my shoe -
Philistia, will you shout triumphanty over me?" (ArtScroll Tehillim, Rabbi H.
Danziger, trans.)
Discuss among yourselves, class.
;-)
Nick Denny
<URL:mailto:tprat...@unseen.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <6qo4pr$b...@access5.digex.net>, Dick Eney
> <dick...@access5.digex.net> writes
> >In article <199808101025...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>but does not explain the nickname.
> >
> >Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
> >bizarre Cockney slang habits).
>
> night has died out...:-)
Never fear, Mr Writer OBE, sir[1] because instead of the bible the
population is now reading some other literature[2]. It's the Discworld
series of novels by some other called... what'shisface... thingamy... you
know.. beard... hat..
The only trouble is that there are no chapters, so you have to read the
whole book.. Just think what would have happened if they had done that with
the bible..
:-)
[1] Did I get that right?
[2] (accused)
--
Nick Denny, Cheshire, UK. nick.denny(at)zetnet.co.uk
Drummer ordinaire ................................ &:-)
Roger Barnett
>
> In article <6qo4pr$b...@access5.digex.net>, Dick Eney
> <dick...@access5.digex.net> writes
> >In article <199808101025...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
> >
> >>I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
> >>My copy of "The Discworld Companion" (holy horns gesture here) refers to
> >>but does not explain the nickname.
> >
> >I haven't any basis for this, but my guess is that "washpot" is a sort of
> >Cockneyfied slang pronunciation of "visit" (substitute v for w and add
> >bizarre Cockney slang habits).
>
> Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every
> night has died out...:-)
Not to mention Stephen Fry autobiographies.
--
Roger Barnett
in...@fdhoekstra.nl
> >In article <199808101025...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> >SJF 1959 <sjf...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
> night has died out...:-)
Ah. Well, I thought the reference was so obviously
biblical that I didn't bother to look up _where_ in
the bible exactly, until this thread and its vague
guesses about Moab woke me from my sluggishness and
made me wise...
I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8,
marking Visit, as it were, as a bit of a Pharisee.
Of course, the literal word "washpot" is not in there,
but then, who said it would be?
Richard
Michael Grant
A long time ago, on a Usenet far, far away, Deborah scribed:
^
> >Psalms 60:8
> >Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia,
> >triumph thou because of me.
> >
> >Psalms 108:9
> >Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia
> >will I triumph.
That's the King James Version.
"Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I
shout in triumph."
That's the NIV.
"Moab is my washbasin; upon Edom I cast my shoe; over Philistia I shout
in triumph."
That's the RSV.
> Ahhhh. We have some interesting hermeneutic differences driving the
> translations. Here is Psalms 60:8, from two traditional Jewish editions:
>
> "Moav is my wash basin, upon Edom I will cast my lock.
> Philistia, join yourself with me." (Metsudah Tehillim, Rabbi A. Davis, trans.)
>
> "Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I will cast my shoe -
> Philistia, will you shout triumphanty over me?" (ArtScroll Tehillim, Rabbi H.
> Danziger, trans.)
>
> Discuss among yourselves, class.
If you want a beautiful if not very accurate translation, go to the
KJV; if you want to know the accurate meaning of every word but don't
particularly care about the style, go to the Artscroll version.
I'll check what the Jewish Publication Society of America's version
has to say tonight (it's based upon the KJV); and then *snigger* I'll
subject you to my own attempt at translation.
But I think the moral of the story is that the KJV, whilst perhaps
best known, isn't exactly reknowned for its use of contemporary
English terms.
ttfn,
Mchl Grnt
------------IN--MEMORIAM--PHOENICIS.CANTABRIGENSIS.ACADEMIAE.UK---------------
Don't look behind you; the lemmings are catching up.=8-0| Risus Sardonicus :-]
The generation of random numbers is far too important to| (Michael S. Grant)
be left to chance. | M.S....@hw.ac.uk
-------------------< http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~msgrant/ >----------------------
DinkiPixie
<snip>
>The only trouble is that there are no chapters, so you have to read the
>whole book.. Just think what would have happened if they had done that with
>the bible..
It's worse than that - the Bible is a book of many books. Like trying to
read the whole Discworld series to date in one go. Anyone done that BTW?
chris
>It's worse than that - the Bible is a book of many books. Like trying to
>read the whole Discworld series to date in one go. Anyone done that BTW?
Yep. All in order, except for Small Gods 'cos my uncle nicked it. Over
several days in July.
It's actually really interesting seeing the developing writing style
(yep, Mr Great Writer,Sir, that's right: you just get better 'n
better...)
bestest regards 'n all that,
chris
(replace 'x' with 'chris' when replying by email)
--
^`~'=+-¬,._.,¬-+='~`^`~'=+-¬,._.,¬-+='~`^`~'=+-¬,._.,¬-+='~`^
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_.,¬-+='~`^`~'=+-¬,._.,¬-+='~`^`~'=+-¬,._.,¬-+='~`^`~'=+-¬,._
Michael Grant
A long time ago, on a Usenet far, far away, in...@fdhoekstra.nl scribed:
> Terry ("Terrrrrrry") Pratchett wrote: ^
> > >Deborah wrote:
> > >>I grovel in my ignorance. Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?
> > Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every
> > night has died out...:-)
>
> Ah. Well, I thought the reference was so obviously
> biblical that I didn't bother to look up _where_ in
> the bible exactly, until this thread and its vague
> guesses about Moab woke me from my sluggishness and
> made me wise...
> I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8,
> marking Visit, as it were, as a bit of a Pharisee.
> Of course, the literal word "washpot" is not in there,
> but then, who said it would be?
Now let's not be so nasty to the Pharisees, shall we? Honestly, these
guys get such a bad press in the NT[1].
I checked my Jewish Publication Society of American translation and
was surprised to see:
"Moab is my washpot; upon Edom do I cast my shoe; Philistia, cry
aloud because of me" (Ps. 60:8)
It might be worth mentioning that the Soncino books of the Bible,
which use the JPS translation (alongside the Hebrew original), if they
disagree with a word tend to offer their alternatives in the
commentary rather than meddle with the translation itself.
Trina suggested:
>I think that washpot might be another word for what used to go under
>the bed at night. Going to the loo is also known as paying a *visit*.
>could it be?
I don't think this is correct. The Hebrew phrase is "sir rahtsi", and
the root R.H.tS has the meaning of "wash". -
-
ttfn,
Mchl Grnt[0]
(a Pharisee[2])
[1] *boggle* Lends a whole new meaning to Windows NT, doesn't it?
[2] Modern Judaism is descended from Phariseeism...
-------------------< http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~msgrant/ >----------------------
[0]Send me your URLs for the afpers' homepages directory| Risus Sardonicus :-]
Many are called but few are chosen... | (Michael S. Grant)
Fewer still get to do the choosing. | M.S....@hw.ac.uk
-------< New to afp? Please mail 'new...@lspace.org' for an infopack >------
Caribou
worked them into this theory...
Various people have said:
"Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?"
"Oh, dear. Obviously the habit of reading a chapter of the Bible every
night has died out...:-)
--
Terry Pratchett"
(so, in that case, what could you do at night, on your own, to occupy
the time
"Also, it ties into the expression "tub-thumping", and sort-of-rhymes
with "tosspot"..."
(washpot - tosspot, is there a little similarity here) (10 points for
film id)
"Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe: Philistia,
triumph thou because of me."
"Moab is my washpot; over Edom will I cast out my shoe; over Philistia
will I triumph."
"Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I toss my sandal; over Philistia I
shout in triumph."
"Moab is my washbasin; upon Edom I cast my shoe; over Philistia I shout
in triumph."
"Moav is my wash basin, upon Edom I will cast my lock. Philistia, join
yourself with me."
"Moab is my washbasin, upon Edom I will cast my shoe - Philistia, will
you shout triumphanty over me?"
(So it looks like a story in three parts... let's look at the
clues...
1. So who is this Moab guy and just what is it he's cleaning in his
'washpot' ?
2. Something's definately getting tossed over Edom.
3. And maybe over Philistia as well? Or is Philistia being invited
to join in and 'shout' over everyone as well)
"I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8, marking Visit, as
it were, as a bit of a Pharisee."
(are we maybe talking a bit of a tosspot here?)
Well that's all I've got. Please feel free to comment.
Lurking off, Herbizoid (definitely not a washpot)
David Brain
msgrant@PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (Michael Grant) wrote:
> But I think the moral of the story is that the KJV, whilst perhaps
> best known, isn't exactly reknowned for its use of contemporary
> English terms.
Oh, I think they were all pretty contemporary at the time it was
written...
--
David Brain
London, UK
Dick Eney
What I heard was that the KJV was deliberately written in terms
that were archaic at the time, to sound more poetic and impressive.
=Tamar
Miq
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Tamar <dick...@access4.digex.net> wrote
>What I heard was that the KJV was deliberately written in terms
>that were archaic at the time, to sound more poetic and impressive.
True-ish... I think it's more accurate to say that it was very
much written to be read aloud, and to *sound* poetic and
impressive. After all, it was written for a society that was
still mostly illiterate.
However, I don't think the language would have seemed 'archaic' in
contemporary terms - it's not nearly as bad as Spenser's 'Faerie
Queene', which *is* supposed to be archaic.
Constable Visit <BMG>
>
> [2] Modern Judaism is descended from Phariseeism...
Phariseeism is called Zorastranism (although its not spelled that way)
But, I think the Washpot may infact be a reference to a thing that
was done to witches. They were dunked repidly in salt water (in a
basin) until they confessed.
C. Visit aka Ben Goldner
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Actual quote from a Scooby-Doo episode:
Shaggy: (walking through the woods) "As soon as we find the pot, we
can get
back to the van and relax."
I swear. And from Gumby:
Gumby: "Here, Pokey, try some."
Pokey: "No thanks, I prefer grass."
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Anthony W. Youngman
writes
<chomp chomp>
> 1. So who is this Moab guy and just what is it he's cleaning in his
>'washpot' ?
Moab was a nation living in the holy land
> 2. Something's definately getting tossed over Edom.
I think Edom were also sons of Abraham (descended from Hagar his
slavegirl) as also Moab might have been.
> 3. And maybe over Philistia as well? Or is Philistia being invited
>to join in and 'shout' over everyone as well)
Philistia (the Philistines) were the dominant nation living in
Palestine/Israel when David first appears on the scene. Goliath was
their champion so it's presumably a reference to their famous dual and
the consequences thereof.
>
>"I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8, marking Visit, as
>it were, as a bit of a Pharisee."
> (are we maybe talking a bit of a tosspot here?)
>
>Well that's all I've got. Please feel free to comment.
>
>Lurking off, Herbizoid (definitely not a washpot)
>
>
--
Anthony W. Youngman
wol at thewolery d demon d co d uk | The L-Space Web-http://www.lspace.org/
Ask Christopher Robin where it is. | The Ultimate Terry Pratchett fan site!
If replying by e-mail please mail wol.
Anything else may get missed amongst the spam.
in...@fdhoekstra.nl
> OK good riddle this, I've taken all the best ideas posted so far and
> worked them into this theory...
> "Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?"
[this was me:]
> "I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8, marking Visit, as
> it were, as a bit of a Pharisee."
> (are we maybe talking a bit of a tosspot here?)
No. To clarify, I'll now post Mk. 7:8 for those _still_
too lazy to look it up (-:
(Jesus speaking to the Pharisees)
For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the
tradition of men, as the /washing of pots/ and cups;
and many other such things ye do.
Not that I read a chapter of the Bible every night...
this post brought to you under the motto:
"Knowledge is of two kinds: we know a subject ourselves,
or we know where we can find information upon it."
No (fake) ppoint, because
[1] it's too obvious, look it up in Bartlett's;
[2] I'll be AFK for some time, so I can't give it
away to whoever wins it.
Richard
The Bazzalisk
>Now let's not be so nasty to the Pharisees, shall we? Honestly, these
>guys get such a bad press in the NT[1].
Well . . . IIRC Jesus of Nazzerath (sp?) was a pharasee (street preacher
(manic?)) and he doesn't get a bad press in the NT :-- )
The Bazzalisk /
<//>
'I see it clearly!, it all makes sense!
Frisbies, Plan 9 From Outer Space, Hollywood,
The FBI, The assasination of Ghandi,
The Suicide of H. Dumpty!
It is all clear now!'
ppint.
BMG "Constable Visit erred in stating:
> Michael Grant [<M.S....@hw.ac.uk>] wrote:
>>
>> [2] Modern Judaism is descended from Phariseeism...
>
>Phariseeism is called Zorastranism (although its not spelled that way)
- no.
- zoroaster = zarathustra, and is a sun/fire god monotheism
unconnected with judaism; zarathustra being the persian who
founded the religion in the 6th century BCE.
- i know of *no* connection between zoroastrianism/zarathust-
rianism, and judaism, of which the pharisees were a reforming,
or at the very least, a tolerant and intelligently interpretive
mainstream thread;
the modern remnants of the once great middle-eastern religion
of zarathustrianism are the _parsees_, the name being a deriv-
ative of "parsi" - "persian", from "pars" - "persia", "parthia"
[from which latter form, and their extremely effective fighting
tactics, derives the phrase "parting shot"]; the parsees fled
to [what are now] afghanistan, pakistan & india during the arab
conquest of the country during the rise of the caliphate, and
the subsequent persecution of zarathustrianism under islam;
their faith and religion was not acceptable despite their being
monotheistic, as they were *not* "people of the book" [the bible].
- there is at least one zoroastrian temple in western europe,
of modern foundation, in london, and there's a fair chance of
there being communities in wilder country anywhere to the north
and to the east of persia, and these be sufficiently isolated
to have escaped the worst of the attentions of the swords, the
spears, the arrows and the rifles of what've been the two main
homicidally intolerant religions, islam and christianity.
>
> But, I think the Washpot may infact be a reference to a thing that
>was done to witches. They were dunked repidly in salt water (in a
>basin) until they confessed.
>(C. Visit aka Ben Goldner)
>
- this is extremely confused; witches, or women accused of being
witches, were [how often, i do not know] *ducked*, not "dunked"
(- <sickgiggle>: makes them sound like a biscuuit)(<fx: sobers>),
during the long, paranoid persecution of "wise women" through the
ages, here in the west; they were thrown into water - usually the
village pond would be the handiest, but a river did just as well -
or a dyke (a ditch): so it would be fresh or filthy water, but not
usually _salt_- and watched to see whether they floated, or sank.
- if they floated, and most human beings _do_ float in water -
*especially* if they have air trapped in & under their skirts -
that was proof that they were witches, and should be killed; if
they sank, they were innocent - and quite likely _dead_.
- simple wooden machines were constructed, to make a more formal
and impressive spectacle of these church-approved lynchings [but
again, i do not know how commonly], which suggests that women
were being killed in this manner sufficiently often, for such de-
vices to be felt necessary; i don't have any figure for how many
[the uatsspdrfodmwc might be able to help, or maybe alan exelby],
but it could have been tens of thousands, maybe even hundreds of
thousands, in all.
- for some indication of how appallingly cruel, malevolent and
hateful the perpetrators of this orgy of killing were, you might
wish to consult the _Malleus Maleficarum_, by heinrich kramer &
james sprenger c.1486, with at least sixteen editions being pub-
lished through 1669. kramer and sprenger were delegated inquis-
itors in northern germany by pope innocent VIII in december 1484.
- mostly in africa, sfaiaa, women are still being killed in the
name of christianity, and of the christian god, & that of islam,
for the "crime" of "being a witch", today.
[- i stock the english translation by montague summers, first
published by john rokeby 1928, uk, as a guide to how to be a
witchfinder, for fantasy role-players so inclined, and their
games masters/mistresses; they often decide against, possibly
because it is a thoroughly detailed and very nasty book.]
- love, ppint. ['ware uce-trap "v"; remove it, to reply to me]
[n.b. follow-up set to afp only, as this has just about moved
off being [A], or [R], and is likely to drift further into [I]
- if it is followed-up to at all...]
--
"never trust a man with shaved buttocks"
- jim darby, 2/9/96 (9/2/96 for merkins)
Dick Eney
> "Why is Constable Visit nicknamed "Washpot"?"
Hmm. So far we have Moab as a nation living in Israel, described
metterforically as a washpot or washbasin, in a sentence in which Edom is
something to put your shoes on (a shoe tree, or something to be trampled
underfoot?) and the Pharisees are uncertain - possibly to be triumphed
over, or to be triumphed over _by_, i.e., an as yet undefeated enemy.
And elsewhere, washing pots is a reference to the Mosaic laws in a context
that implies that they are lipservice, following the letter rather than
the spirit.
So Visit being called Washpot could refer either to Visit's perception of
himself as a potential purifier of the ungodly, or to other peoples'
perception of him as someone not essentially threatening but who has
missed the main point of his own religion.
=Tamar
Trina
wrote:
>Trina suggested:
>>I think that washpot might be another word for what used to go under
>>the bed at night. Going to the loo is also known as paying a *visit*.
>>could it be?
I did no such thing!
Although I've been reading with interest, I've not joined in this
thread *at all*.
It must have been some other fella.
kisses,
Trina
Michael Grant
bl
A long time ago, on a Usenet far, far away, Anthony W. Youngman scribed:
> Caribou <herbi...@csi.com> writes ^
Not having seen Caribou's posting yet, I'll just happily jump in with
both feet and pedant Anthony. ;^)
> > 1. So who is this Moab guy and just what is it he's cleaning in his
> >'washpot' ?
>
> Moab was a nation living in the holy land
Er, wrong actually. Probably best if I illustrate with a map.
| R. Jordan
|PHOE- |
|NIC- | BASHAN -- annexed by Israelites
|IANS ^
Mediterranean ^ | | _/ R.Yarmukh
| v_,-'
| | GILEAD -- annexed by Israelites
C | |
| ISRAEL/ |----,
| | \R. Yabbok
| CANAAN |
| | AMMON
|PHI- ^^ Here
/ (HOLY |De| Be
|LIS- |ad|------R. Arnon Dragons
/ LAND) | C|
;TINES | _|
_/ || MOAB
/ | ^|
vv Mornington Crescent
: :
EDOM : : Aravah
: :(East African Rift Valley)
> > 2. Something's definately getting tossed over Edom.
>
> I think Edom were also sons of Abraham (descended from Hagar his
> slavegirl)
No; the descendants of Hagar are the Arabs and Bedouins; Edom was the
same as Esau, son of Isaac, son of Abraham.
> as also Moab might have been.
No, Moab and Ammon were the children of Moab by his daughters, who
thought they were the only people left in the world. Hence they called
them Moav from Me-av (from my father) and Ammon from Ben-ammi (son of
my people).
> > 3. And maybe over Philistia as well? Or is Philistia being invited
> >to join in and 'shout' over everyone as well)
> Philistia (the Philistines) were the dominant nation living in
> Palestine/Israel when David first appears on the scene. Goliath was
> their champion so it's presumably a reference to their famous dual and
> the consequences thereof.
The Philistines were one of the Sea Peoples (including also the
Phoenicians) who came from Crete (or do I mean Cyprus?) and settled
along the coast. However, at the time of David they were trying to
dominate the rest of the region.
> >"I think it is a reference to Mark 7, spec. v. 4 & 8, marking Visit, as
> >it were, as a bit of a Pharisee."
> > (are we maybe talking a bit of a tosspot here?)
<G>
ttfn,
Mchl Grnt
------------IN--MEMORIAM--PHOENICIS.CANTABRIGENSIS.ACADEMIAE.UK---------------
Don't look behind you; the lemmings are catching up.=8-0| Risus Sardonicus :-]
He who keeps his nose to the grindstone achieves only a | (Michael S. Grant)
nose he can cut bread with. | M.S....@hw.ac.uk
-------------------< http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~msgrant/ >----------------------
Peter Bleackley
|> Michael Grant wrote:
|> >
|> > [2] Modern Judaism is descended from Phariseeism...
|>
|> Phariseeism is called Zorastranism (although its not spelled that way)
|>
No, thats Parseeism. The Pharisees were the religious lawyers who
Jesus regularly argued with, on the grounds that (according to Him),
they made life too bloomin' complicated for everybody, didn't practice
what they preached, and made a great show of external piety to earn
worldly praise. However, they seemed rather more sympathetic to Him
than the Saducees (the priestly class), as they rarely tried anything
worse than trying to catch Him out with awkward questions, whereas
the Saducees seem to have been the ones who wanted to get rid of Him
permanently.
--
~PETE "QUANTUM" BLEACKLEY~
Daleks! Repent of your evil ways, and live in peace as plumbers!
X-Ray Astronomy Group University of Leicester
p...@star.le.ac.uk ~ Website coming soon