? Companion of the King/Queen's Own
Virginia Eveland
Hi,
This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
for a week now...
In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
--
Virginia Eveland
SYX, AGML, LGW, BLA, OBSSE, GAWS
Pretender, Bab5, and Misty Fan, Mill and XF Fanatic
"If you're falling off a cliff, you may as well try to fly,
you've got nothing to lose..." Captain Sheridan, Babylon 5
Dawnfire
On 14 Apr 1997 14:04:06 GMT, kxw2...@Bayou.UH.EDU (KrissyBee) wrote:
(snip)
>Rolan gets killed?????? (is it in Storm Breaking? I haven't read it yet).
Don't think so...unless my memory's REALLY starting to go! :)
(And the rest of your explanation's what I always thought, too.)
Dawnfire
>The only answer I can think off, not knowing about that story line, is
>that in Arrows of the Queen, when someone is telling Talia how special
>Rolan is, she was told that the Kings/Queen's Own Companion has better
> endurance than the
>average Companion, is always Grove-born, never seems to age, but *can*
>be killed. I am guessing that Taver (as well as any other K/Q Own
>Companion prior to Rolan) was killed in the line of duty.
>Kris
KrissyBee
Virginia Eveland (dsc...@erols.com) wrote:
: Hi,
: This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
: for a week now...
: In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
: name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
: of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
: chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
: Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
: of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
: Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
: isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
: chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
: I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
Rolan gets killed?????? (is it in Storm Breaking? I haven't read it yet).
The only answer I can think off, not knowing about that story line, is
that in Arrows of the Queen, when someone is telling Talia how special
Rolan is, she was told that the Kings/Queen's Own Companion has better
endurance than the
average Companion, is always Grove-born, never seems to age, but *can*
be killed. I am guessing that Taver (as well as any other K/Q Own
Companion prior to Rolan) was killed in the line of duty.
Kris
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An IQ does not measure a capacity for love.
-Madeleine L'Engle
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
William George Ferguson
>This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
>for a week now...
>In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
>name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
>of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
>chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
>Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
>of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
>Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
>isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
>chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
>I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
On 14 Apr 1997 14:04:06 GMT, kxw2...@Bayou.UH.EDU (KrissyBee) wrote:
>Rolan gets killed?????? (is it in Storm Breaking? I haven't read it yet).
>The only answer I can think off, not knowing about that story line, is
>that in Arrows of the Queen, when someone is telling Talia how special
>Rolan is, she was told that the Kings/Queen's Own Companion has better
> endurance than the
>average Companion, is always Grove-born, never seems to age, but *can*
>be killed. I am guessing that Taver (as well as any other K/Q Own
>Companion prior to Rolan) was killed in the line of duty.
Gee, an on-topic thread.
Rolan is alive and well at the end of Storm Breaking. I think what
she means is that Rolan has the attributes of the MOC and one of those
is that the MOC comes back when it is killed (an MOC appears,
actually, it isn't proven that it's the same MOC, although I so
believe. See below)
Well, lets see, The Monarch's Own Herald's Companion (hereinafter the
MOC) per all the Valdemar books is grove-born, doesn't age, and is
immediately replaced by a new grove-born MOC if killed. If the MO
dies and the MOC survives, the MOC sets out and Chooses a new MO
(while it is never explicitly said, that I can remember, it is very
clear implicitly that only the MOC Chooses more than one Herald during
his mortal life (the MOC is always a he)). If the MOC dies and the MO
survives, the new MOC will come 'from the grove' and immediately
Choose the surviving MO. If both die, the new MOC will come 'from the
grove' and Choose a new MO.
Now for the fun stuff:
In 'Arrows' one of the instructors (I think Teren) says the MOC
normally Chooses a new MO from among the current Heralds. This leads
to the question of what happens to the 'lucky' Herald's existing
Companion. ML never specifically addresses this and much speculation
has ensued in all the places Valdemar is discussed. The closest to
consensus abml has currently reached on this question (and it isn't
terribly close) is the existing Companion just has a weaker, sort of
place-holder, bond with a Herald that is (as far as the Companions are
concerned) the presumptive next MOC.
The new MOC doesn't come 'from the grove' with the same name as the
previous MOC. abml is about evenly split on the question of whether
it's a different Leshi'ay each time, or whether it's the same
Companion, reincarnated each time it dies. Among those who favor the
second view (including me), there is much speculation, but no
consensus on the identity of the MOC. Some of the more popular
speculations are that
It's King Valdemar reincarnated
It's the original MO reincarnated
It's the original MOC reincarnated
I favor the last myself, but there is no real evidence in the books
for any of these.
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
In article <3352687e...@nntp.mid-ga.com>, kfor...@vt.edu (Dawnfire)
wrote:
> On 14 Apr 1997 14:04:06 GMT, kxw2...@Bayou.UH.EDU (KrissyBee) wrote:
> (snip)
> >Rolan gets killed?????? (is it in Storm Breaking? I haven't read it yet).
>
> Don't think so...unless my memory's REALLY starting to go! :)
> (And the rest of your explanation's what I always thought, too.)
Me too. And the original MO companion was someone different too (when the
three first companions got picked).
antimony
--
each dream nascitur, is not made . . . )
why then to H*ll with that: the other; this,
since the thing perhaps is
to eat flowers and not to be afraid
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) <sber...@swarthmore.edu
Captain Silkfur McFluffy
Virginia Eveland <dsc...@erols.com> was overheard by Fluffy to say:
>This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
>for a week now...
The Fluffy only answers serious questions.
>In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
>name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
>of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
>chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
>Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
>of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
>Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
>isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
>chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
>I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
As best as I recall, the Monarch own companion is always groveborn and
can live until killed. There was a pretty good chunk of time between
Vanyel and Arrows- over 800 years. So it is more than likely that
Taver was finally killed and eventually Rolan was groveborn somewhere
down the line. I don't recall that it was necessarily the same
"life/person/entity" that returns as monarchs own companion. I could
be wrong on this though.
You have been *fluffed*
The Fluffy (and yes! it is legal ... somewhere)
>--
> Virginia Eveland
> SYX, AGML, LGW, BLA, OBSSE, GAWS
> Pretender, Bab5, and Misty Fan, Mill and XF Fanatic
>"If you're falling off a cliff, you may as well try to fly,
>you've got nothing to lose..." Captain Sheridan, Babylon 5
Captain Silkfur McFluffy | ... To seek out new species of mice to conquer,
Commander Tia Clawmarks | ... To discover new fabrics to shred,
Starship AACK.Hairball | ... To purr where no cat has purred before,
mailto:tpa...@metronet.com | http://www.metronet.com/~tpaulk/Fluffy.html
Dawnfire
On 14 Apr 1997 18:28:01 -0700, fr...@primenet.com (William George
Ferguson) wrote:
>Gee, an on-topic thread.
<Dawnfire reads that and knows she's lost, but decides to go ahead
anyway... :) >
big snip
>Well, lets see, The Monarch's Own Herald's Companion (hereinafter the
>MOC) per all the Valdemar books is grove-born, doesn't age, and is
>immediately replaced by a new grove-born MOC if killed. If the MO
>dies and the MOC survives, the MOC sets out and Chooses a new MO
>(while it is never explicitly said, that I can remember, it is very
>clear implicitly that only the MOC Chooses more than one Herald during
>his mortal life (the MOC is always a he)).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Does it say that? Where? Huh, that seems to me like the best
evidence that the MOC is the same, reincarnated every time. Why else
would that Companion always be male...it doesn't seem like a
Misty-like feature otherwise. :) Can anybody think of any other good
reasons why ML would say that that one Companion is always a male if
it's not the same spirit each time?
> It's King Valdemar reincarnated
> It's the original MO reincarnated
> It's the original MOC reincarnated
>I favor the last myself, but there is no real evidence in the books
>for any of these.
I like that last one too, come to think of it. If the original
Companion was a link, sort of, to some deity or other, than it would
make sense that it would be one of the original spirits sent down who
would keep that as his permanent assignment; kind of keeping that link
to the god there in a way, maybe? Guess my second choice would be
King Valdemar as the MOC...
On the other hand......would one leshy'a ever get tired of having the
same job over and over? I know that sounds kind of silly and petty
for a Companion.....but think about it harder; would a spririt ever
need a change of pace? :)
Dawnfire, who has obviously lost it, as an on-topic thread kept her
attention for ten whole minutes! <G>
Simon
On or about Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:32:03 -0400, Virginia Eveland wrote:
>Hi,
>This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
>for a week now...
>In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
>name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
>of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
>chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
>Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
>of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
>Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
>isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
>chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
>I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
>--
> Virginia Eveland
But it doesn't say *the same* Monarch's Own companion keeps coming
back; it says 'If he is killed - and many have been - another appears
from the grove to take his place.' (AotQ ch 5 (p 124 Daw pb)).
<another>, not the same one.
Simon
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Simon van Dongen <sg...@pi.net> Rotterdam, The Netherlands
'My doctor says I have a malformed public duty gland and a
natural deficiency in moral fibre,' he muttered to himself,
'and that I am therefore excused from saving Universes.'
Life, the universe and everything
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=++=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Dawnfire
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:29:41 GMT, mira...@tc.umn.edu (Sapphire)
wrote:
>IIRC, Grove born companions are not* reincarnated from anything. I
>don't remember which book it was in, but didn't (at some point)
>someone warn Elspeth that since Gwena was groveborn, she didn't have
>any human experience, and was, in essence, younger than Elspeth
>herself? I thought it was implied that all* grove-born companions
>(and thus the MOC) were something other than a reincarnation.>
> -Sapphire.
Ooh, that's true, I forgot about that reference. That'd explain why I
had never thought about the fact that they might be, before, anyway...
Although, Rolan isn't very young-seeming at all, is he? Not much like
Gwena, although of course he's been alive for a long time by the time
Talia is chosen. Ok...we know it's strange for Gwena to have been
grove-born since she wasn't the MOC, right, so I suppose it _could_ be
the case that Gwena's young and the MOC could still be himself...
Thinking about it, though, I'm more inclined to go with the idea that
they're all new too.... Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male?
That still doesn't seem very Misty-like to me.......
BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
is groveborn?
Dawnfire
KrissyBee
Dawnfire (kfor...@vt.edu) wrote:
: BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
: weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
: us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
: is groveborn?
: Dawnfire
I think they all were at the beginning. Teren I believe mentions it
in AOTQ, when Talia and her year mates are going through orientation.
The Companions were all Grove-born at first, until they started mating
thereby eliminating the need for Grove-born. Enough time would have
to have passed for there to be enough dead Heralds of course.
Kris
Sapphire
kfor...@vt.edu (Dawnfire) wrote:
>On 14 Apr 1997 18:28:01 -0700, fr...@primenet.com (William George
>Ferguson) wrote:
[big ol snip]
>> It's King Valdemar reincarnated
>> It's the original MO reincarnated
>> It's the original MOC reincarnated
>>I favor the last myself, but there is no real evidence in the books
>>for any of these.
>I like that last one too, come to think of it. If the original
>Companion was a link, sort of, to some deity or other, than it would
>make sense that it would be one of the original spirits sent down who
>would keep that as his permanent assignment; kind of keeping that link
>to the god there in a way, maybe? Guess my second choice would be
>King Valdemar as the MOC...
>On the other hand......would one leshy'a ever get tired of having the
>same job over and over? I know that sounds kind of silly and petty
>for a Companion.....but think about it harder; would a spririt ever
>need a change of pace? :)
>Dawnfire, who has obviously lost it, as an on-topic thread kept her
>attention for ten whole minutes! <G>
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:29:41 GMT, mira...@tc.umn.edu (Sapphire)
> wrote:
>
> BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
> weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
> us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
> is groveborn?
>
Well, the first few were all grove-born -- in AotQ in the history lesson,
it says that GBs kept appearing for a while until the Companion mares
began to foal (I.e. enough Heralds had died to start doing it that way).
But no other offices are always GB.
Captain Silkfur McFluffy
fr...@primenet.com (William George Ferguson) was overheard by Fluffy
to say:
>Rolan is alive and well at the end of Storm Breaking. I think what
>she means is that Rolan has the attributes of the MOC and one of those
>is that the MOC comes back when it is killed (an MOC appears,
>actually, it isn't proven that it's the same MOC, although I so
>believe. See below)
I don't think I'm following you here. The MOC is always replaced
shortly after the death of the "original". But I've seen no evidence
that it is the same entity.
>In 'Arrows' one of the instructors (I think Teren) says the MOC
>normally Chooses a new MO from among the current Heralds. This leads
>to the question of what happens to the 'lucky' Herald's existing
>Companion. ML never specifically addresses this and much speculation
>has ensued in all the places Valdemar is discussed. The closest to
>consensus abml has currently reached on this question (and it isn't
>terribly close) is the existing Companion just has a weaker, sort of
>place-holder, bond with a Herald that is (as far as the Companions are
>concerned) the presumptive next MOC.
If I recall what was said in the magic series, it seems that when this
is going to be the case, that the bond between the future mo and their
present companion is very weak or limited. So I would guess that
that companion either just retires or finds a permanent herald.
>The new MOC doesn't come 'from the grove' with the same name as the
>previous MOC. abml is about evenly split on the question of whether
>it's a different Leshi'ay each time, or whether it's the same
>Companion, reincarnated each time it dies. Among those who favor the
>second view (including me), there is much speculation, but no
>consensus on the identity of the MOC. Some of the more popular
>speculations are that
> It's King Valdemar reincarnated
If there was a moc at the time of Valdamar, then this theory would be
impossible. If it were the case, I would question the ethics of this.
> It's the original MO reincarnated
??? The very first mo or the one who most recently died?
> It's the original MOC reincarnated
Possible. If this is the case, then the name changing would be
necessary since if the moc kept the same name suspicious questions
would arise. Also, this would raise the same question of ethics as
the first theory.
Fluff Fluff and ... aack ... AAACKK! hack HACKKK! .... Hairball,
The Fluffy
Victoreia
>kfor...@vt.edu (Dawnfire) wrote:
>
>>On 14 Apr 1997 18:28:01 -0700, fr...@primenet.com (William George
>>Ferguson) wrote:
>
>[big ol snip]
[smaller snip]
>>> It's the original MOC reincarnated
[tiny snip]
>>I like that last one too, come to think of it. If the original
>>Companion was a link, sort of, to some deity or other, than it would
>>make sense that it would be one of the original spirits sent down who
>>would keep that as his permanent assignment; kind of keeping that link
>>to the god there in a way, maybe? Guess my second choice would be
>>King Valdemar as the MOC...
>
>>On the other hand......would one leshy'a ever get tired of having the
>>same job over and over? I know that sounds kind of silly and petty
>>for a Companion.....but think about it harder; would a spririt ever
>>need a change of pace? :)
>
>>Dawnfire, who has obviously lost it, as an on-topic thread kept her
>>attention for ten whole minutes! <G>
>
>
>IIRC, Grove born companions are not* reincarnated from anything. I
>don't remember which book it was in, but didn't (at some point)
>someone warn Elspeth that since Gwena was groveborn, she didn't have
>any human experience, and was, in essence, younger than Elspeth
>herself? I thought it was implied that all* grove-born companions
>(and thus the MOC) were something other than a reincarnation.
>
> -Sapphire.
>
YES! (And it was. . .<checking references> Van, while trying to
convince Elspeth he was who he said he was. (_Winds of Fury_ pg. 92,
DAW hardcover))
In fact, Van comes right out and says Gwena doesn't have "any _real_,
human experience to base her decisions on."
OTOH, I think that the MOC may be slightly different. Being that the
MO (and, by extension, the MOC) plays such a vital role in the
well-being of the Monarch, and in the well-being of the Heralds (at
least in Talia's case), wouldn't it be a bit self-defeating to have a
MOC without any such experience? Mind you, I'm not saying I think the
MOC _is_ always the same soul/leshy'a, just in different bodies. I
think that the MOC may have at least some of the knowledge passed on
to him by previous MOCs.
Of course, then that leads to the question of where the _first_ MOC
got all of his knowledge/wisdom. (And, as I haven't completely gone
over this in my head, I have nothing to defend this whole issue with.
<g> I'm usually too busy devouring the book to argue about most of
this.)
Just MHO
-- Victoreia
spam-trapped: remove "net" from email address
**Happiness is having your colors done and
discovering you look best in chocolate. **
Nora Rivkis
> In article <3353dc88....@mgweb.hom.net>, kfor...@vt.edu
(Dawnfire) wrote:
> >
> > BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
> > weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML
tells
> > us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes
here)
> > is groveborn?
Speaking of Yfandes in this connection, I'm curious about
Vanyel's offhanded remark that he'd half expected to have
been chosen MO instead of Shavri. Regardless of whether
Yfandes is Grove-born (I assume she isn't, since there are
some references to the woman she presumably used to be
before coming back as a Companion), she's clearly a mare;
she's just as clearly not the previous MOC. How do we get
from the concept that the MO is marked for the job from the
time they're first Chosen, by the right Companion, into the
notion that an already-Chosen and trained Herald can be
selected *by* the MOC for the job, and what happens to the
fact that said Herald already has a Companion who isn't the
regular MOC? When I was doing a Valdemar RPG, we basically
tossed the male/groveborn only rule and decided that if the
MOC selected someone with their own Companion already,
said MOC retired/died shortly thereafter as a lot of Companions
did when their Herald died anyway (Yfandes says something
like this in Magic's Price); and then you simply had a new MOC
by that route till he/she did the same thing. It's the only sen-
sible solution I could work out, but it doesn't fit with what she's
already said. But neither does anything else I can think of.
Also, just how many people in succession does an MOC
Choose anyway? We know of at least one case where the
same MOC Chose a second Herald after their first died
(Shavri and Jisa), but the mother/daughter pairing may have
had something to do with that. Still, the implication seems
to be that a single MOC carries on with a succession of
Heralds until the Companion himself dies, and I've never
otherwise heard of a Companion Choosing more than once.
Thoughts?
Rick Hewett
At 20:02:09 UTC on Tue 15 Apr,
kfor...@vt.edu (Dawnfire) wrote:
>had never thought about the fact that they might be, before, anyway...
>Although, Rolan isn't very young-seeming at all, is he?
Seems to me that the spirit incarnated as a (grove-born) Companion need
not be a new/young spirit. It could have existed for quite a while before
being incarnated as a Companion. Even in Gwenya's case the comment made
is that she lacks _human_ experience. Nothing about other experience.
We know that spirits can be incarnated in all sorts of forms, not all
of them animate (Ok, so "incarnated" is the wrong word there...) The
MOC could just be a more than averagely powerful spirit taking a break
from other duties...
>Ok...we know it's strange for Gwena to have been grove-born since she
>wasn't the MOC, right,
So Elspeth's due to become the first Herald Mage since Vanyel died...
Seems a good enough reason to have a special Companion to me, assuming
the Companions (or the power that orders them) have at least some idea
of Elspeth's potential. And the Companions do a good job of _hiding_
that fact from the Heralds, even though Talia (and Elspeth too? I can't
remember) actually witnesses Gwenya's grove-birth.
>Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male? That still doesn't seem
>very Misty-like to me.......
Perhaps because it would be too inconvenient to have the MOC with foal
and therefore tied to the Companion's Field ? Isn't there a comment
somewhere about the legendary fertility of the MOC ?
>is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells us
>_clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
>is groveborn?
I can't remember any. Also, there's Jasen's comment after Yfandes Chooses
Vanyel about Yfandes being the oldest Companion that hasn't Chosen, and
that she'd been of an age to Choose yet not done sofor ten years... Seems
to me that the Heralds knew how old Yfandes was, which implies the knew
when she was born, and that indicates to me that she definitely was not
grove-born...
Cheers,
Rick (happy to see a *serious* thread for once :) Hewett
--
Clairvoyant meeting cancelled due to unforseen events.
Captain Silkfur McFluffy
mdec...@pixinet.com (Victoreia) was overheard by Fluffy to say:
>YES! (And it was. . .<checking references> Van, while trying to
>convince Elspeth he was who he said he was. (_Winds of Fury_ pg. 92,
>DAW hardcover))
>In fact, Van comes right out and says Gwena doesn't have "any _real_,
>human experience to base her decisions on."
Granted that Gwena did not have any "human" experience. But I wonder
if she wasn't also a very young "guardian" being as well.
>OTOH, I think that the MOC may be slightly different. Being that the
>MO (and, by extension, the MOC) plays such a vital role in the
>well-being of the Monarch, and in the well-being of the Heralds (at
>least in Talia's case), wouldn't it be a bit self-defeating to have a
>MOC without any such experience? Mind you, I'm not saying I think the
>MOC _is_ always the same soul/leshy'a, just in different bodies. I
>think that the MOC may have at least some of the knowledge passed on
>to him by previous MOCs.
This is why I am opposed to the previously mentioned theories that the
moc is the same entity reincarnated each time. This would lead one to
suspect that the queen and her heralds are not in control of their
destinies, but rather pawns of a greater being who manipulates things
from behind the scenes.
>Of course, then that leads to the question of where the _first_ MOC
>got all of his knowledge/wisdom. (And, as I haven't completely gone
>over this in my head, I have nothing to defend this whole issue with.
><g> I'm usually too busy devouring the book to argue about most of
>this.)
If I can make assumptions based on the limited information given, I
would say that the groveborn are a race or species of beings that
serve as guardians, or that some of them volunteer or are chosen to
serve in that capacity.
Regards,
Patricia Swan
On 16 Apr 1997 10:57:18 GMT, "Nora Rivkis" <nri...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote:
>
>Also, just how many people in succession does an MOC
>Choose anyway? We know of at least one case where the
>same MOC Chose a second Herald after their first died
>(Shavri and Jisa), but the mother/daughter pairing may have
>had something to do with that. Still, the implication seems
>to be that a single MOC carries on with a succession of
>Heralds until the Companion himself dies, and I've never
>otherwise heard of a Companion Choosing more than once.
>Thoughts?
Actually, we saw it in the very first book ARROWS OF THE QUEEN. Talia
was *not* Rolan's first Herald. He'd already been Companion for the
previous Monarch's Own. There was also discussion of the fact that
the MO was fairly old, of Selenay's father's generation at least, and
he didn't know how to deal with this young energetic queen. When his
Herald died Rolan went out on search and found Talia.
Pat
--
*Patricia A. Swan, moderator, rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.cary.nc.us *
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Alessan de Tigana
Rick Hewett (ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>of Elspeth's potential. And the Companions do a good job of _hiding_
>that fact from the Heralds, even though Talia (and Elspeth too? I can't
>remember) actually witnesses Gwenya's grove-birth.
Elspeth is called to the grove to bond with Gwena. Talia also feels the
call and meets Elspeth, Gwena and Rolan as they leave the grove, and
immediately realises Gwena's origin.
Both Elspeth and Talia then have their memories altered to 'remember' Gwena
as having been around for a while.
>>Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male? That still doesn't seem
>>very Misty-like to me.......
>Perhaps because it would be too inconvenient to have the MOC with foal
>and therefore tied to the Companion's Field ? Isn't there a comment
>somewhere about the legendary fertility of the MOC ?
_Good_ point.
>that she'd been of an age to Choose yet not done sofor ten years... Seems
>to me that the Heralds knew how old Yfandes was, which implies the knew
>when she was born, and that indicates to me that she definitely was not
>grove-born...
See above; the Companions don't seem to have any great concern about hiding
things through somewhat-dubious means. It's a good arguement for Yfandes
not being grove-born, but it may not necessarily follow that because the
Heralds 'remember' her birth, that that memory is Truth.
I'm not entirely sure I approve of this manipulation by the Companions.
Hiding their nature so as not to allow too great a dependency by the
Heralds makes sense, but altering memories seems to go against the grain of
ML's ethical system.
---
"Smile", they said, "it could be worse."
So I did. And it was.
Alessan de Tigana
Lisa Gregory (lgre...@tcg-inc.com) wrote:
>While I much prefer the idea of a weak/limited bond to some poor
>wholly-bonded Companion being left behind while his/her Herald is
>"promoted" to bonding with the MOC, I think I remember a problem with
IIRC, the implication is pretty clear from Jisa's situation that the
MO-in-waiting is _not_ Chosen while the current MO is still alive. It's
explicitly stated she won't be chosen until the current MO dies and Taver
Chooses her as the new MO. The fact that Rolan went looking for Talia (a
non-Herald, altho there were other imperatives leading to her being Chosen)
seems to support the arguement that the next MO is only going to make it as
far as Trainee until the position becomes available, or as in Talia's case
won't even make it that far. Thus, no 'place-holder' Companion is
involved.
Simon
On or about Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:02:50 GMT, Dawnfire wrote:
>On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:29:41 GMT, mira...@tc.umn.edu (Sapphire)
>wrote:
>>IIRC, Grove born companions are not* reincarnated from anything. I
>>don't remember which book it was in, but didn't (at some point)
>>someone warn Elspeth that since Gwena was groveborn, she didn't have
>>any human experience, and was, in essence, younger than Elspeth
>>herself? I thought it was implied that all* grove-born companions
>>(and thus the MOC) were something other than a reincarnation.>
>> -Sapphire.
>Ooh, that's true, I forgot about that reference. That'd explain why I
>had never thought about the fact that they might be, before, anyway...
>Although, Rolan isn't very young-seeming at all, is he? Not much like
>Gwena, although of course he's been alive for a long time by the time
>Talia is chosen. Ok...we know it's strange for Gwena to have been
>grove-born since she wasn't the MOC, right, so I suppose it _could_ be
>the case that Gwena's young and the MOC could still be himself...
>Thinking about it, though, I'm more inclined to go with the idea that
>they're all new too.... Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male?
>That still doesn't seem very Misty-like to me.......
Don't know why, but Teren says so. in Talia's very first lesson in the
Collegium. (AotQ ch 5, p.124)
>BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
>weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
>us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
>is groveborn?
>Dawnfire
Well, the first lot, and quite a few after, presumably until there
were enough foals and/or enough dead Heralds to be reincarnated.
Nora Rivkis
Alessan de Tigana <ale...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote in article
<935.7046...@actrix.gen.nz>...
>
> Lisa Gregory (lgre...@tcg-inc.com) wrote:
> >While I much prefer the idea of a weak/limited bond to some poor
> >wholly-bonded Companion being left behind while his/her Herald is
> >"promoted" to bonding with the MOC, I think I remember a problem
with
>
> IIRC, the implication is pretty clear from Jisa's situation
that the
> MO-in-waiting is _not_ Chosen while the current MO is still
alive. It's
> explicitly stated she won't be chosen until the current MO dies
and Taver
> Chooses her as the new MO.
Actually, I read this as completely the other way around. The
third book said that Jisa *had* been Chosen, by Taver, but that
it would not be a *bonded* Choosing till Shavri died.
This still leaves the question of what happens if an already-bonded
Herald is selected as MO, which Van pretty clearly suggested that
Taver could do, and might very well have if Randale hadn't needed a
healer. No idea on that one.
-Naomi
treehugger
On Tue, 15 Apr 1997, Dawnfire wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:29:41 GMT, mira...@tc.umn.edu (Sapphire)
> wrote:
>
> >IIRC, Grove born companions are not* reincarnated from anything. I
> >don't remember which book it was in, but didn't (at some point)
> >someone warn Elspeth that since Gwena was groveborn, she didn't have
> >any human experience, and was, in essence, younger than Elspeth
> >herself? I thought it was implied that all* grove-born companions
> >(and thus the MOC) were something other than a reincarnation.>
> > -Sapphire.
<el snip>
>
> they're all new too.... Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male?
> That still doesn't seem very Misty-like to me.......
Possibly...could it be that it is the same spirit reincarnated? That
would explain the need for gender to remain the same, but doesn't explain
why the MOC always gives his name to his Chosen, and it's different every
time...possibly the MOC are more analogous to the Suncats (in ability and
rarity) than the ordinary Companions--is there any mention of some sort of
all-male, altruistic group of people/spirits ever mentioned that could
account for this? Hmmm...or the reason could be very mundane (and, I
admit, very un-Misty-like), that the Monarch's Own must be able to do
anything necessary at a moment's notice, and if his/her Companion was a
female, and therefore had the possibilty of being pregnant and indisposed,
this could be a problem...
Any better ideas (hopefully mine aren't the best :->)
treehugger (thinking as she types)
>
> BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
> weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
> us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
> is groveborn?
>
> Dawnfire
Hmm...I missed that--what were the facts that gave rise to the "Yfandes"
question? Not that it doesn't raise some interesting ideas...
William George Ferguson
tpa...@metronet.com (Captain Silkfur McFluffy) wrote:
>This is why I am opposed to the previously mentioned theories that the
>moc is the same entity reincarnated each time. This would lead one to
>suspect that the queen and her heralds are not in control of their
>destinies, but rather pawns of a greater being who manipulates things
>from behind the scenes.
Of course, reading Winds of Fate could also lead one to suspect this.
(going for the existing world record for McFluffy posting on-topic in
abml)
CMEDW1
Alessan de Tigana <ale...@actrix.gen.nz> wrote:
>Sapphire (mira...@tc.umn.edu) wrote:
>>IIRC, Grove born companions are not* reincarnated from anything. I
>>don't remember which book it was in, but didn't (at some point)
>>someone warn Elspeth that since Gwena was groveborn, she didn't have
>>any human experience, and was, in essence, younger than Elspeth
>>herself? I thought it was implied that all* grove-born companions
>>(and thus the MOC) were something other than a reincarnation.
I've always thought of the MOC as not exactly a reincarnation, but a
"new" Spirit with access to the knowledge of the previous MOCs (other
wise a new MOC wouldn't be much help to a new MO, as Rolan is for Talia).
Gwena doesn't seem to have such access (at least, not to such an extent);
she's a very new spirit, without that direct line to her predecessors
(cos she doesn't have any)
>The original Companions _must_ have been _all_ grove-born. Certainly the
>first three were, and unless whatever deity was involved took an extreme
>hand, that's _not_ a viable gene pool (altho... this is a fantasy world,
>who's really to say if it is or not). Be that as it may, even if those
>first three can be considered viable breeding stock, there would have had
>to be a period of time where new companions were being born, and not
>grove-born, for which there were no deceased Heralds to be reincarnated. So
>where'd the souls/spirits for _those_ Companions come from?
a - the first (more than 3) Companions were all Groveborn
b - where did the souls/spirits for the Heralds come from? Either a pool
of "new" spirits, or a cycle of reincarnation that includes non-Heralds
(whether ordinary people/creatures/whatever)
>Which leads on to the next interesting thought - Quentin in Winds of Fate
>gets a nasty shock when viewing Gwena through Mage-sight, seeing her as a
>very powerful Guardian Spirit (nb there are some interesting trends thru
>ML's work - Guardian Spirits, Guardians, and Elves guarding children, and
>the evil-doers showing a remarkable prediliction for certain activities in
>all the books), and Skif's Companion as a not-so-powerful one. Skif's
>Companion is not grove-born. So, how does a Guardian Spirit get _born_
>through natural process? Surely Companions aren't born unsouled, and the
>spirit takes up residence? Or do they only conceive offspring when there's
>a deceased Herald ready to return and continue their duty in that role?
Recycling. *g*
I don't think Companions have to be ex-Heralds. They might be
ex-Companions, or ex-good people/creatures/spirits. I think they're
conceived and born just like anyone/thing else, and whatever higher being
is out there looking after Valdemar chooses an appropriate spirit to
inhabit that body.
Have I confused you all sufficiently? Good, co I've confused me too...
Carolyn,
wandering dazedly into the distance...
Hollie Virgin
Victoreia wrote:
<snip>
>So there would _have_ to be others (non-Heralds) who would
>be. . .um, worthy (for lack of a better word) enough to return as
>Companions.
Actually, there's some kinda vague evidence of non-Heralds as
Companions in _Storm Breaking_...not a spoiler...Florian's younger
sister's name is Idry, and I think there was some debate when the book
came out over whether Idry could be Idra of the Sunhawks reincarnated.
We don't see enough of the Companion's personality to judge that,
though, so it's just the name-similarity.
Hollie
my God, posting on a serious thread...*faints*
Rick Hewett
At 22:49:14 UTC on Thu 17 Apr,
>call and meets Elspeth, Gwena and Rolan as they leave the grove, and
>immediately realises Gwena's origin.
There's also the interesting statement there that "for centuries" only
the MOC had been Grove-born.
>Both Elspeth and Talia then have their memories altered to 'remember' Gwena
>as having been around for a while.
Mmmm... Rolan appears to overwhelm Talia's memories, but only when she's
already realised Gwena's Grove-born and begun to wonder _why_ ... and the
false memories Rolan gives her are hazy ones ... and Talia feels a bit
as if she's forgotten something, but decides to get on with the important
business of the moment and worry about it later.
... and regarding Yfandes:
>not being grove-born, but it may not necessarily follow that because the
>Heralds 'remember' her birth, that that memory is Truth.
I guess that's possible, though I don't think it's likely that they'd
have _clear_ memories of Yfandes if those memories had been implanted...
Besides, Yfandes's Choosing of Vanyel happens all of a sudden in the
midst of the panic surrounding Gala and Tylendel's deaths. Vanyel's
Gifts are only latent until the gate backlash blasts them open, and
Yfandes only seems to decide to Choose him when he needs rescuing.
Then she won't let any Heralds near him, and all the Heralds discussing
the matter seem to know exactly and clearly who she is.
>I'm not entirely sure I approve of this manipulation by the Companions.
>Hiding their nature so as not to allow too great a dependency by the
>Heralds makes sense, but altering memories seems to go against the grain of
>ML's ethical system.
I'd agree there, and add that in Yfandes' case no such memory-meddling
took place :-)
--
..Rick Hewett mailto:ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk http://www.chocky.demon.co.uk/
Earth is the cradle of humanity, but one cannot live in the cradle forever
-- K. Tsiolkovski, 1899
PJ. Jamison
On Sun, 13 Apr 1997 22:32:03 -0400, Virginia Eveland
<dsc...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>This seems like such a silly little thing, but it has been bothering me
>for a week now...
>
>In Vanyel's time, The Last Herald Mage Series, we are told that the
>name of the Companion of the King's own is Taver, the current companion
>of Shavri. We are told that Jisi won't be chosen until Taver's current
>chosen is dead, which, is *fine* and in from with the Arrows of the
>Queen series. But where and when did Taver become Rolan in the Arrows
>of the Queen Series??? It wouldn't be so nagging except that Rolan is a
>Grove companion and even when he gets *killed* he comes back, and if he
>isn't killed he never seems to age...and that Rolan *always* tells his
>chosen his name. So what occured of Taver? Is this just a loose thread
>I'm biting at or a real inconsistancy in the timeline?
>--
> Virginia Eveland
> SYX, AGML, LGW, BLA, OBSSE, GAWS
> Pretender, Bab5, and Misty Fan, Mill and XF Fanatic
>"If you're falling off a cliff, you may as well try to fly,
>you've got nothing to lose..." Captain Sheridan, Babylon 5
Taver probably got killed in the LOD...
Misty NEVER stated that the MOC is THE SAME throughout time...so
therefor, Rolan is not Taver. We don't even know if there were other
MOC between the two..probably so....
Laugh it up, Fuzzball.
----------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
----------------------
Wind To Thy Wings
PJ. Jamison
On Mon, 14 Apr 1997 14:46:35 -0400, sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony
(Sarah Bergstrom)) wrote:
>In article <3352687e...@nntp.mid-ga.com>, kfor...@vt.edu (Dawnfire)
>wrote:
>
>> On 14 Apr 1997 14:04:06 GMT, kxw2...@Bayou.UH.EDU (KrissyBee) wrote:
>> (snip)
>> >Rolan gets killed?????? (is it in Storm Breaking? I haven't read it yet).
>>
>> Don't think so...unless my memory's REALLY starting to go! :)
>> (And the rest of your explanation's what I always thought, too.)
>
>Me too. And the original MO companion was someone different too (when the
>three first companions got picked).
>
>antimony
>
>--
>each dream nascitur, is not made . . . )
>why then to H*ll with that: the other; this,
>since the thing perhaps is
>to eat flowers and not to be afraid
>antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) <sber...@swarthmore.edu
Rolan does Not get killed (Therefor, Herald Talia would die
also,.....Companions don't out live there chosen, unless they are
Grove born, we know this cause Rolan chose Talia after Talamir Died..
but if Rolan died...Talia probably would too.....
I think she meant that Taver must have died...:)
PJ. Jamison
On 17 Apr 97 10:49:13 +1200, Alessan de Tigana <ale...@actrix.gen.nz>
wrote:
>Rick Hewett (ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>>of Elspeth's potential. And the Companions do a good job of _hiding_
>>that fact from the Heralds, even though Talia (and Elspeth too? I can't
>>remember) actually witnesses Gwenya's grove-birth.
>
>Elspeth is called to the grove to bond with Gwena. Talia also feels the
>call and meets Elspeth, Gwena and Rolan as they leave the grove, and
>immediately realises Gwena's origin.
>
>Both Elspeth and Talia then have their memories altered to 'remember' Gwena
>as having been around for a while.
>
>>>Ok, so _why_ would the MOC _always_ be male? That still doesn't seem
>>>very Misty-like to me.......
>>Perhaps because it would be too inconvenient to have the MOC with foal
>>and therefore tied to the Companion's Field ? Isn't there a comment
>>somewhere about the legendary fertility of the MOC ?
>
>_Good_ point.
>
>>that she'd been of an age to Choose yet not done sofor ten years... Seems
>>to me that the Heralds knew how old Yfandes was, which implies the knew
>>when she was born, and that indicates to me that she definitely was not
>>grove-born...
>
I find it very amusing that this subject keeps coming up..the
speculation that Yfandes was Grove Born. It is a very interesting
idea, but IMHUMBLEO.....She is not.....
and i'll make the same statement always said when this subject comes
up....
why does everyone think that Yfandes HAD to have been grove born just
cause vanyel was sooo powerful??? So EVERY powerful and Unique Herald
HAS to have a Grove Born??? seems to me that this arguement is mute,
since all the Heralds are Unique,.that's what makes them Heralds.....
:) I LOVE talking about it though....Companions are my favorite part of the series...
Reminds me of the discussion a friend and i were having several days
ago....My friend feels that it is NOT right that Darkwind doesn't get
Chosen ...and i feel that he doesn't HAVE to be.....
it seems like everyone who reads Lackey would have Every major
character paired off with a companion, will they nill they....
Now, there were certainly reasons why Daren & Kero are Chosen..those
are apparent...but just cause Darkwind & Elspeth are Espoused doesn't
mean that Darkwind has to be Chosen....POOR VREE!!!! :)
>See above; the Companions don't seem to have any great concern about hiding
>things through somewhat-dubious means. It's a good arguement for Yfandes
>not being grove-born, but it may not necessarily follow that because the
>Heralds 'remember' her birth, that that memory is Truth.
>
>I'm not entirely sure I approve of this manipulation by the Companions.
>Hiding their nature so as not to allow too great a dependency by the
>Heralds makes sense, but altering memories seems to go against the grain of
>ML's ethical system.
>
>---
>"Smile", they said, "it could be worse."
>So I did. And it was.
>
Laugh it up, Fuzzball.
Victoreia
On Sat, 19 Apr 1997 17:21:58 GMT, ehvi...@pop.uky.edu (Hollie Virgin)
shared this bit of wisdom:
>Victoreia wrote:
><snip>
>>So there would _have_ to be others (non-Heralds) who would
>>be. . .um, worthy (for lack of a better word) enough to return as
>>Companions.
>
>Actually, there's some kinda vague evidence of non-Heralds as
>Companions in _Storm Breaking_...not a spoiler...Florian's younger
>sister's name is Idry, and I think there was some debate when the book
^^^^^^^^^^^
Really? <interested look> I must've missed that discussion. Drat!
>came out over whether Idry could be Idra of the Sunhawks reincarnated.
>We don't see enough of the Companion's personality to judge that,
>though, so it's just the name-similarity.
Never picked up on that one. Hafta go back and read it again, now!
>Hollie
>my God, posting on a serious thread...*faints*
What? This is a _serious_ thread?! Oooohhhh nnnnnoooooooo!
<runs away shrieking>
Dawnfire
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 05:08:57 GMT, mdec...@pixinet.com (Victoreia)
wrote:
snip
>>Now, there were certainly reasons why Daren & Kero are Chosen..those
>>are apparent...but just cause Darkwind & Elspeth are Espoused doesn't
>>mean that Darkwind has to be Chosen....POOR VREE!!!! :)
>>
>what would happen to that bond?
>
I would think it would just stay...after all, a herald can be
lifebonded and Chosen, and a hawkbrother can have more than one
bondbird, although admittedly both are supposedly rare. And Karal's
linked to Altra and still shares a pretty close friendship with
Florian, though his purpose doesn't include being a Herald ever. So I
wouldn't think it would necessarily be _impossible_ for someone to be
linked to a bondbird and a Companion, though it's probably really
unlikely, especially since the Hawkbrothers usually have their own
sorts of Grand Missions for Life... Anyway, I don't think Darkwind
should have been Chosen either, those were just random thoughts on the
possibility. :)
Dawnfire
Victoreia
On Sun, 20 Apr 1997 03:16:50 GMT, wal...@stratos.net (PJ. Jamison)
shared this bit of wisdom:
>Reminds me of the discussion a friend and i were having several days
>ago....My friend feels that it is NOT right that Darkwind doesn't get
>Chosen ...and i feel that he doesn't HAVE to be.....
>it seems like everyone who reads Lackey would have Every major
>character paired off with a companion, will they nill they....
>
>are apparent...but just cause Darkwind & Elspeth are Espoused doesn't
>mean that Darkwind has to be Chosen....POOR VREE!!!! :)
>
Maybe Vree is part of the reason Darkwind _didn't_ get chosen. I mean,
what would happen to that bond?
And I think you're right about not everybody _having_ to be chosen. If
_everyone_ was chosen, then how unique would Heralds be? Being unique
is one of their strengths.
[more of a snip]
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
In article <5jbkbn$1...@chocky.demon.co.uk>, ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk (Rick
Hewett) wrote:
> ... and regarding Yfandes:
> >not being grove-born, but it may not necessarily follow that because the
> >Heralds 'remember' her birth, that that memory is Truth.
[snip]
> I'd agree there, and add that in Yfandes' case no such memory-meddling
> took place :-)
Also -- Yfandes in Winds seems rather incensed that the Companions have
been deceiving the Heralds so much, IIRC. She's obviously let Van in on
all the secrets, and they tell Elspeth about Gwena. So I don't think
Yfandes would have kept such a secret from Van. Another point is that Van
"sees" the woman Yfandes once was, like he had "seen" Gala.
Bethany Jo Weber
Rick Hewett (ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: Perhaps because it would be too inconvenient to have the MOC with foal
: and therefore tied to the Companion's Field ? Isn't there a comment
: somewhere about the legendary fertility of the MOC ?
A fact which has always confused me...
In _Arrow's of the Queen_ there's a comment to the effect that, because
Rolan is the premire stallion of the herd, he's very... popular with the
mares. But wouldn't this "legendary fertility" thing lead to WAY too
many new Companios being born? Remember every Companion has to choose a
Herald eventually... even Yfandes. Plus, why would the Companion mares
-- who are, after all, just reincarnated human women -- be so gung-ho
about the prospect of sex with somone they *knew* would make them pregnant?
: Rick (happy to see a *serious* thread for once :) Hewett
: --
: Clairvoyant meeting cancelled due to unforseen events.
Bethany
------------------Official Weredragon of Rice University-------------------
"It really is a nice theory. The only defect I think it has is probably
common to all philosophical theories. It's wrong."
- Kripke, _Naming and Necessity_
---http://www.owlnet.rice.edu:80/~bethany/-------...@owlnet.rice.edu---
Captain Silkfur McFluffy
sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)) was overheard
by Fluffy to say:
>Also -- Yfandes in Winds seems rather incensed that the Companions have
>been deceiving the Heralds so much, IIRC. She's obviously let Van in on
>all the secrets, and they tell Elspeth about Gwena. So I don't think
>Yfandes would have kept such a secret from Van. Another point is that Van
>"sees" the woman Yfandes once was, like he had "seen" Gala.
>antimony
IIRC, Yfandes did keep a good amount secret from Van while they were
alive. After they had both been killed, secrecy would have been
pointless. Not to mention several hundred years without anything new
to talk about would probably drive anyone insane...
Laters,
The Fluffy
>--
>each dream nascitur, is not made . . . )
>why then to H*ll with that: the other; this,
>since the thing perhaps is
>to eat flowers and not to be afraid
>antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) <sber...@swarthmore.edu
Captain Silkfur McFluffy | ... To seek out new species of mice to conquer,
Rick Hewett
At 22:51:09 UTC on Sun 20 Apr,
bet...@rice.edu (Bethany Jo Weber) wrote:
>In _Arrow's of the Queen_ there's a comment to the effect that, because
>Rolan is the premire stallion of the herd, he's very... popular with the
>mares. But wouldn't this "legendary fertility" thing lead to WAY too
>many new Companios being born?
Err... I _think_ you're missing something... The comment comes when Skif
visits Taila and Kris up north (in Arrows Flight), and Cymry ends up
pregnant as a result of her liason with Rolan. Skif comments that Cymry's
had similar liasons with "every stallion" they've met, and "nothing like
that has happened yet." Seems to me that Companions usually know exactly
how to control their fertility, but on this occasion Cymry (and Skif)
forgot...
--
..Rick Hewett mailto:ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk http://www.chocky.demon.co.uk/
From the back, Vetinari looked like a carnivorous flamingo.
-- (Terry Pratchett, Men At Arms)
Jason Hatter
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) (sber...@swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: Also -- Yfandes in Winds seems rather incensed that the Companions have
: been deceiving the Heralds so much, IIRC. She's obviously let Van in on
: all the secrets, and they tell Elspeth about Gwena. So I don't think
: Yfandes would have kept such a secret from Van. Another point is that Van
: "sees" the woman Yfandes once was, like he had "seen" Gala.
It's not so much "let Van in on", as much as it is "everyone knows them",
at least in Van's time . Once the prohibition on magic went into effect,
the Companions selectively edited Heralds memories, removing knowledge of
the nature of the Companions. This has been hinted at throughout the
Winds & STorms trilogies...
-- Jason
http://www.cris.com/~towonder/
RPG stuff at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/rpg.html
featuring Sailor Moon V at http://www.cris.com/~towonder/fanfic.html
Marian Griffith
In article <5jhsta$6...@chronicle.concentric.net>, Jason Hatter
<URL:mailto:Towo...@cris.com> wrote:
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) (sber...@swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: Also -- Yfandes in Winds seems rather incensed that the Companions have
: been deceiving the Heralds so much, IIRC. She's obviously let Van in on
: all the secrets, and they tell Elspeth about Gwena. So I don't think
: Yfandes would have kept such a secret from Van. Another point is that Van
: "sees" the woman Yfandes once was, like he had "seen" Gala.
Of course by the time they were in the forest Van had first hand experience
with the Power that sends Heralds and Companions (and who knows else) back
to serve Valdemar. It would be pretty pointless for Yfandes to deny things
at that point. On the other hand, while Van was still alive there were a
great deal of good reasons to keep the knowledge secret even from him.
It's the kind of secret that can cause a lot of damage to the people of
Valdemar and also to the Heralds themselves who must deal with a lot of
personal loss as friends get killed in the line of duty.
> It's not so much "let Van in on", as much as it is "everyone knows them",
> at least in Van's time . Once the prohibition on magic went into effect,
> the Companions selectively edited Heralds memories, removing knowledge of
> the nature of the Companions. This has been hinted at throughout the
> Winds & STorms trilogies...
I don't agree with that. Savil didn't really belief the Tayledraw when they
talked about Stefen being the same person as Tylendal nor that reincarnation
was truth. I can only guess that her beliefs reflected those of the majority
of people of Valdemar. And the Companions who knew better have actively
shielded the Heralds from finding out. They also kept their true nature
from their Chosen. Only Vanyel somehow got glimpses of the other person
that they were before. (Does this suggest that at least in the early
books Heralds didn't reincarnate over and over again? or did Vanyel only
see a vision of the human the Companion last was?)
Marian
--
Yes - at last - You. I Choose you. Out of all the world,
out of all the seeking, I have found you, young sister of
my heart! You are mine and I am yours - and never again
will there be loneliness ...
Rolan Choosing Talia,
Arrows of the Queen, by Mercedes Lackey
Simon
On or about Sat, 19 Apr 1997 08:46:23 GMT, Victoreia wrote:
<snips all round>
>I got the impression (I think from _Winds of Fury_) that the Heralds
>had the choice of whether or not to return as Companions. If that's
>the case, I'm sure there are some that choose _not_ to go back as a
>Companion. So there would _have_ to be others (non-Heralds) who would
>be. . .um, worthy (for lack of a better word) enough to return as
>Companions.
What is interesting is that the number of Heralds (and presumably of
companions) isn't constant. There are times (like just before the war
with Hardorn and before that during Selenay's dad's time) when there
are more than at other times. That would seem to imply that there are
times when there are fewer companions needed. I just wonder what
happens with supernumerary heralds-to-be-incarnated-as-companions. I
can imagine a waiting room with the lot of them arguing whose turn it
is...
<snipsnap>
Jason Hatter
Marian Griffith (gry...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
: I don't agree with that. Savil didn't really belief the Tayledraw when they
: talked about Stefen being the same person as Tylendal nor that reincarnation
: was truth. I can only guess that her beliefs reflected those of the majority
: of people of Valdemar. And the Companions who knew better have actively
: shielded the Heralds from finding out. They also kept their true nature
: from their Chosen. Only Vanyel somehow got glimpses of the other person
: that they were before. (Does this suggest that at least in the early
: books Heralds didn't reincarnate over and over again? or did Vanyel only
: see a vision of the human the Companion last was?)
Those aren't the secrets I'm referring to, I'm afraid 8) I'm referring to
the knowledge of the magical nature of the Companions, and how they can
aid/be aided via magic. (ref: Van feeding Yfandes Power to sustain her
speed, her adding Power to him to overcome Laereths' defenses, etc).
After the prohibition went into effect, everyone kind of forgot all that
stuff (witness Elspeths reactions to Gweyna's "I can help", "I'm a mage,
kind of", etc). WRT reincarnation, I believe that that was unknown, even
in Van's time (tho I agree, he has, undoubtedly, learned the truth).
t...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
treehugger (kke...@gl.umbc.edu) wrote:
[da Snip]
: Possibly...could it be that it is the same spirit reincarnated? That
: would explain the need for gender to remain the same, but doesn't explain
: why the MOC always gives his name to his Chosen, and it's different every
: time...possibly the MOC are more analogous to the Suncats (in ability and
: rarity) than the ordinary Companions--is there any mention of some sort of
: all-male, altruistic group of people/spirits ever mentioned that could
: account for this? Hmmm...or the reason could be very mundane (and, I
: admit, very un-Misty-like), that the Monarch's Own must be able to do
: anything necessary at a moment's notice, and if his/her Companion was a
: female, and therefore had the possibilty of being pregnant and indisposed,
: this could be a problem...
: Any better ideas (hopefully mine aren't the best :->)
Well, I do have one, consider it as you well. I always thought of the MOC
as a reincarnated Monarchs own. If you'll read the book, it mentions that
when Talia had to go to the High Feast, that there hadn't been a Female MO
in so long no one knew how to alter court Dress for the first bit. It may
just be that the majority of MO have been male, and thus the MOC is
usually male.
: treehugger (thinking as she types)
: >
: > BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
: > weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
: > us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
: > is groveborn?
: >
: > Dawnfire
: Hmm...I missed that--what were the facts that gave rise to the "Yfandes"
: question? Not that it doesn't raise some interesting ideas...
--
/\ Tav
/____\ J.Giles
/[] [] []\ email: t...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
[] [] []
[] [] []
/----------\
/--------------\
/------------------\
Nora Rivkis
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) <sber...@swarthmore.edu> wrote in article
<sbergst1-230...@res125.willets02.swarthmore.edu>...
> In a previous article, Marian Griffith <gry...@iaehv.nl> wrote:
> [supersnip]
> > that they were before. (Does this suggest that at least in the
early
> > books Heralds didn't reincarnate over and over again? or did
Vanyel only
> > see a vision of the human the Companion last was?)
>
> Do they go over and over? I thought it was just one turn at
Herald, then
> one turn at Companion... Has there ever been a character that's
shown up
> three times? I always figured that it wasn't an endless
repetition...
It was strongly implied that Florian was going to turn
up as a Herald. Since he was already a Companion,
and showed up on the moonpaths as a human image,
I assumed he had already been a Herald once before.
> antimony
-Naomi
Rick Hewett
At 02:54:29 UTC on Wed 23 Apr,
sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)) wrote:
>Do they go over and over? I thought it was just one turn at Herald, then
>one turn at Companion...
...and only _maybe_ a turn at Companion at that.
>Has there ever been a character that's shown up three times?
You mean _apart_ from Maar-Learth-Falconsbane (*gryn*leap*soar*)
>I always figured that it wasn't an endless repetition...
Yeah. I'd figured that too...
--
..Rick Hewett
He didn't see why I was worried. After all, he said he'd be here on
Wednesday, prompt.
-- [Jungle time-sense explained in "Terry Pratchett's Jungle Quest"]
PJ. Jamison
On 24 Apr 1997 22:27:40 GMT, ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk (Rick Hewett)
wrote:
>
>At 02:54:29 UTC on Wed 23 Apr,
> sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)) wrote:
>>Do they go over and over? I thought it was just one turn at Herald, then
>>one turn at Companion...
>
>...and only _maybe_ a turn at Companion at that.
>
>>Has there ever been a character that's shown up three times?
>
>You mean _apart_ from Maar-Learth-Falconsbane (*gryn*leap*soar*)
>
>>I always figured that it wasn't an endless repetition...
>
Someone mentioned this early, but take the Florian thing...There is
implied evidence that (as a companion he was a previous
herald...remember when Karal kept seeing "a young male there in
whites" when he looked at Florian..? And then at the end of that
series., when (SMILE) Florian all but tells Karal his decision, and
Karal decides to look, 20 or so years down the line for his friend???
GRIN)
but this is that other thing with this thread...There is The choice
they make,....Remember Vanyel's talk with ShadowLover...there is
always a choice...
and.....Tylendel didn't choose to return as a herald....smile...
just another devoted Readers' observations
>Yeah. I'd figured that too...
>
>--
>..Rick Hewett
>He didn't see why I was worried. After all, he said he'd be here on
>Wednesday, prompt.
> -- [Jungle time-sense explained in "Terry Pratchett's Jungle Quest"]
Laugh it up, Fuzzball.
PJ. Jamison
On 24 Apr 1997 01:46:30 GMT, t...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca () wrote:
>treehugger (kke...@gl.umbc.edu) wrote:
>
>[da Snip]
>
>:
>: >
>: > BTW, I _know_ we've talked about this before, but my memory's
>: > weird...is there any other companion aside from an MOC that ML tells
>: > us _clearly_ (meaning without a doubt; I'm not talking Yfandes here)
>: > is groveborn?
>: >
well, We Know Gwena is (from Arrow's Flight and again from the Mage
Winds...
>: > Dawnfire >
>: Hmm...I missed that--what were the facts that gave rise to the "Yfandes"
>: question? Not that it doesn't raise some interesting ideas...
>
Hmm......I have been following this thread for awhile, and it seems to
me that the "Yfandes" question arose from someone's opinion that since
Vanyel was so powerful, that she was GroveBorn. From what i've
read...there IS no fact or anything of the sort in the Books that She
is groveborn......just wishful thinking on a Reader's Part, is MHO
smile..
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
In article <3360075...@nntp.stratos.net>, wal...@stratos.net (PJ.
Jamison) wrote:
> On 24 Apr 1997 22:27:40 GMT, ri...@chocky.demon.co.uk (Rick Hewett)
> wrote:
> >At 02:54:29 UTC on Wed 23 Apr,
> > sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)) wrote:
> >>Do they go over and over? I thought it was just one turn at Herald, then
> Someone mentioned this early, but take the Florian thing...There is
I guess I thought Florian was an exception, since he never _really_ got to
be a companion, since he never Chose anyone. I was considering the
general order of things, not the Tylendel/Florian/Van/Ma'ar class of
exceptions.
antimony
Rick Hewett
At 01:26:29 UTC on Fri 25 Apr,
wal...@stratos.net (PJ. Jamison) wrote:
>Someone mentioned this early, but take the Florian thing...There is
>implied evidence that (as a companion he was a previous herald...
Yep.
>And then at the end of that series., when (SMILE) Florian all but
>tells Karal his decision, and Karal decides to look, 20 or so years
>down the line for his friend??? GRIN)
Ah... So he does... though he's not _quite_ sure what _shape_ Florian
will have.
>but this is that other thing with this thread...There is The choice
>they make,....Remember Vanyel's talk with ShadowLover...there is
>always a choice...
...and Florian talks about Vanyel, Stefan and Yfandes having made their
decisions, and of their not having a lot of time to make sure that they
got properly placed... (I wonder what _that_ means...)
>and.....Tylendel didn't choose to return as a herald....smile...
I wonder whether he was _offered_ that choice ? Somehow I get the
impression it was only Jaysen's intercession that got Tylendel back
for Vanyel at all...
Cheers,
Rick Hewett
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
In article <335dbf78...@nntp.mid-ga.com>, mdec...@pixinet.com
(Victoreia) wrote:
>> I always got the impression that Van could "see" the woman-Yfandes
> because of the strength of his Mage Gift. I have a vague recollection
> of 'Lendel seeing the same thing with Gala. (Of course, _now_ I can't
> FIND that scene, so I can't support that last.) And 'Lendel was also
> considered to have a strong Gift.
I don't have my copy of MP, but IIRC it was Van who saw the girl that Gala
was... 'Lendel had just taken him to meet Gala, and they were teasing each
other, and Van was feeling jealous, when he "saw" Gala and felt even more
like an outsider...
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)
In article <335d5...@nntp.mid-ga.com>, sg...@pi.net wrote:
> times when there are fewer companions needed. I just wonder what
> happens with supernumerary heralds-to-be-incarnated-as-companions. I
> can imagine a waiting room with the lot of them arguing whose turn it
> is...
>
Well, obviously there must be someplace they wait, since they don't seem
to all turn up over and over again (or else there'd be WAY too many
companions around). Also, people might notice if right after a Herald
died, immediately a Companion of the same name showed up. Savil/Sayvel
and Jaysen/Jasen waited the entire time between MP and the latter era to
return...
antimony (the nitpicky)
Bethany Jo Weber
antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) (sber...@swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: companions around). Also, people might notice if right after a Herald
: died, immediately a Companion of the same name showed up. Savil/Sayvel
: and Jaysen/Jasen waited the entire time between MP and the latter era to
: return...
: antimony (the nitpicky)
Also being nitpicky, we don't know that for sure. Either could have
returned as Companions several times previous to this particualr
incarnation.
Hmmm, wonder if that's why some Comapnions let their Chosen pick their
names -- because they died fairly recently / were too well-known to come
back under a similar name? I can't imagine why they wouldn't use their
own names otherwise. Betcha if Van comes back he isn't giving his Chosen
his name...
Marian Griffith
In article <5jud74$mn9$1...@joe.rice.edu>, Bethany Jo Weber
<URL:mailto:bet...@rice.edu> wrote:
> antimony (Sarah Bergstrom) (sber...@swarthmore.edu) wrote:
: companions around). Also, people might notice if right after a Herald
: died, immediately a Companion of the same name showed up. Savil/Sayvel
: and Jaysen/Jasen waited the entire time between MP and the latter era to
: return...
> Hmmm, wonder if that's why some Comapnions let their Chosen pick their
> names -- because they died fairly recently / were too well-known to come
> back under a similar name? I can't imagine why they wouldn't use their
> own names otherwise. Betcha if Van comes back he isn't giving his Chosen
> his name...
Now that would be a nice discussion, what would Van name himself when
he does come back as a companion? Somehow I don't picture him as being
a 'Vanel'. Sounds too much like some kind of cloth to me. Now he might
have been something of a clothes horse once but I doubt he would be
named after it. <grin>
Marian (the irreverent)
KrissyBee
Marian Griffith (gry...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
: In article <5jud74$mn9$1...@joe.rice.edu>, Bethany Jo Weber
: <URL:mailto:bet...@rice.edu> wrote:
: > Hmmm, wonder if that's why some Comapnions let their Chosen pick their
: > names -- because they died fairly recently / were too well-known to come
: > back under a similar name? I can't imagine why they wouldn't use their
: > own names otherwise. Betcha if Van comes back he isn't giving his Chosen
: > his name...
: Now that would be a nice discussion, what would Van name himself when
: he does come back as a companion? Somehow I don't picture him as being
: a 'Vanel'. Sounds too much like some kind of cloth to me. Now he might
: have been something of a clothes horse once but I doubt he would be
: named after it. <grin>
: Marian (the irreverent)
I could see him using Valdir, his mistrel disguise name. After all, that
was unlikely to be in any of the records from that time, so there would
be little chance that someone 700 yrs later would recognize it for what it
was.
Kris
--
.............................................
A kiss is a lovely trick designed by nature
to stop speech when words become superfluous.
-Ingrid Bergman
Victoreia
On 27 Apr 1997 17:25:49 GMT, kxw2...@Bayou.UH.EDU (KrissyBee) shared
this bit of wisdom:
>Marian Griffith (gry...@iaehv.nl) wrote:
>: In article <5jud74$mn9$1...@joe.rice.edu>, Bethany Jo Weber
>: <URL:mailto:bet...@rice.edu> wrote:
[snippy]
>: Now that would be a nice discussion, what would Van name himself when
>: he does come back as a companion? Somehow I don't picture him as being
>: a 'Vanel'. Sounds too much like some kind of cloth to me. Now he might
>: have been something of a clothes horse once but I doubt he would be
>: named after it. <grin>
>
>: Marian (the irreverent)
>
>I could see him using Valdir, his mistrel disguise name. After all, that
>was unlikely to be in any of the records from that time, so there would
>be little chance that someone 700 yrs later would recognize it for what it
>was.
>
>Kris
Oh, my! Would that be something to look forward to. I can just see it
now: we'll be going on for decades about this. "That's _gotta_ be
Van!" "No it isn't!" "Yes it is!" "No it isn't!" ad infinitum.
-- Victoreia (But would Yfandes come back as a Herald?)
Jason Hatter
Amber Wilkinson (amb...@onramp.net) wrote:
: Which reminds me... If Gwena is groveborn, then how does she
: recognize Firesong when they meet?
I thought it was "There's something familiar about him..." or something to
that effect (books not handy or I'd look it up..)
Miss Maria T. Fogel
At 02:54:29 UTC on Wed 23 Apr,
sber...@swarthmore.edu (antimony (Sarah Bergstrom)) wrote:
>Do they go over and over? I thought it was just one turn at Herald,
then
>one turn at Companion...
Maybe I'm wrong (I lent my brain out and I don't get it back 'til
Tuesday), but I seem to recall a discussion between Florian and Karal
about Companions. Paraphrased extremely roughly, Florian said something
about 'it depends on how many times you've been around'.
I apologise for not being more exact. I know it's near the front of
one of the books (I *think* SWarning). Could some kind soul look it up
for me, and tell me exactly what they were discussing?
Many thanks,
wyvern myrcry, aka Maria the wandering lunatic
P.S. (for those who remember me) No, I didn't leave the group
permanently and I promise to return with full pomp and glamour
soon...
Scotty
On stardate: 30 Apr 1997 10:42:02 GMT, SMH...@prodigy.com (Miss Maria
T. Fogel) transmitted:
I do recall something like that in the front of one of the Storm
books....But it was also mentioned that there were companions that
were not Heralds in previous lives...I believe they are referred to as
Grove Born. I also remember that during the Magic Series there was a
lot of surprise when *can't think of his name....sigh* Vanyel's love
was reborn...
And you had better be back....*stern look* I never got the chance to
welcome you!
Scotty
Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
and thin partitions do their bounds divide.
--- Dryden
aaron douglas bilodeau
ws.sas.ab.ca>:
Distribution:
t...@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote:
> treehugger (kke...@gl.umbc.edu) wrote:
>
> [da Snip]
>
> : Possibly...could it be that it is the same spirit reincarnated? That
> : would explain the need for gender to remain the same, but doesn't explain
> : why the MOC always gives his name to his Chosen, and it's different every
> : time...possibly the MOC are more analogous to the Suncats (in ability and
> : rarity) than the ordinary Companions--is there any mention of some sort of
> : all-male, altruistic group of people/spirits ever mentioned that could
> : account for this? Hmmm...or the reason could be very mundane (and, I
> : admit, very un-Misty-like), that the Monarch's Own must be able to do
> : anything necessary at a moment's notice, and if his/her Companion was a
> : female, and therefore had the possibilty of being pregnant and indisposed,
> : this could be a problem...
>
> : Any better ideas (hopefully mine aren't the best :->)
This looks like an ancient thread, but I just came across it and
couldn't help throwing in my thoughts. <clunk!>
It seems to me that the reason the MOC is always male is because
companions take the shape of horses. Essense often molds itself to shape,
which is why Companions exhibit many horse-like behaviors. One of these
is the herd-structure, or at least the habit of the strongest stallion
leading the herd. And since the strongest Companion is always the MOC,
the MOC is always a stallion.
As far as Companions being reincarnated anything, there is strong
evidence to suggest that all grove-born Companions are new souls that
have never been born into mortal flesh. Gwena certainly was. Admittedly,
this makes little sense, since the MO would need as much wisdom and
experience as possible to help them, but MOCs have been known to do
things that didn't make a whole lot of sense.
Also, MOCs don't grow old or die with their old herald.
Presumably, a wet-behind-the-ears MOC would choose someone who is already
a herald and knows what they are doing. Only an MOC with an entire
lifetime of experience (or more) in that role would choose someone as
clueless as Talia. At least, I hope so!
Well, those are my theories. treat them as you will.
Starsong
Sapphire
abil...@indiana.edu (aaron douglas bilodeau) wrote:
> This looks like an ancient thread, but I just came across it and
>couldn't help throwing in my thoughts. <clunk!>
[snip]
> As far as Companions being reincarnated anything, there is strong
>evidence to suggest that all grove-born Companions are new souls that
>have never been born into mortal flesh. Gwena certainly was. Admittedly,
>this makes little sense, since the MO would need as much wisdom and
>experience as possible to help them, but MOCs have been known to do
>things that didn't make a whole lot of sense.
My boyfriend and I were talking about that the other day, and I
thought that maybe it's better to have a grove-born as the MOC, and
not someone reincarnated, because without a human background, it's
easier to avoid the biases and prejudices that humans pick up in their
lives. It seemed to me that it's very important that the MOC be able
to be more neutral than humans could be - especially since the MO
needs to be able to give the monarch an unbiased look at any
situation. Just my two cents...
[snip]
> Well, those are my theories. treat them as you will.
> Starsong
-Sapphire.
Marian Griffith
In article <338b3...@news1.mid-ga.com>, Sapphire
<URL:mailto:mira...@tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> > As far as Companions being reincarnated anything, there is strong
> >evidence to suggest that all grove-born Companions are new souls that
> >have never been born into mortal flesh. Gwena certainly was. Admittedly,
> >this makes little sense, since the MO would need as much wisdom and
> >experience as possible to help them, but MOCs have been known to do
> >things that didn't make a whole lot of sense.
> My boyfriend and I were talking about that the other day, and I
> thought that maybe it's better to have a grove-born as the MOC, and
> not someone reincarnated, because without a human background, it's
> easier to avoid the biases and prejudices that humans pick up in their
> lives.
I believe there's another reason for having a groveborn MOC.
If the MOC is killed then there can't be any doubt who will be
the next MOC, and more importantly still, who will be the next
Monarch's Own. Since that herald is the second most powerfull
person in the entire kingdom she can't be subject to politics.
By having a MOC that is undisputable that Companion's Choice is
also equally undisputable.
Not to mention that any situation in which both Monarch's Own AND
Companion are killed is likely to become desperate very soon. It
certainly is hardly going to be a situation where one can wait
some ten years until the new MOC is old enough to assume his duties.
Marian