The RIngworld Engineers and the Luck of Teela Brown (spoiler)
Shawn WAgner
I just reread Ringworld and the Ringworld Engineers, right after one
another.
Teela Brown, in Ringworld, cannot be serioulsy hurt, or killed. Her luck
prevents anything bad happening to her.
Yet, in the Ringworld Engineers, she runs into tree-of-life, and becomes a
protector (This may not be bad for her. She's smarter, stronger, etc.).
Then, in the fight with Chmee and Louis, she gets various parts of her body
chopped off, including her head. This is bad, and most defintly harmed
her. So, how could it happen? Louis said she was fighting to lose, but
she can't control her luck, which would prevent her from getting killed.
So, how was Louis able to kill her?
Her luck was still working up to the point when see became a protector (How
else would she have escaped the grogs? Hmm, Larry should write a book
about Teena's journy to the Map of Mars.) Her luck was probably still
active when she ate the tree-of-life (Without her luck, she might not have
reached the Map in time to safely make the change). Did it just go away as
a result of the change to protector, or what?
Any other ideas on this?
--
Shawn Wagner
sha...@wpi.edu
http://www.wpi.edu/~shawnw/
Steve Sloan
>Teela Brown, in Ringworld, cannot be serioulsy hurt, or killed.
>Her luck prevents anything bad happening to her.
>Yet, in the Ringworld Engineers, she runs into tree-of-life,
>and becomes a protector (This may not be bad for her. She's
>smarter, stronger, etc.). Then, in the fight with Chmee and Louis,
>she gets various parts of her body chopped off, including her
>head. This is bad, and most defintly harmed her. So, how could
>it happen? Louis said she was fighting to lose, but she can't
>control her luck, which would prevent her from getting killed. So,
>how was Louis able to kill her?
There was a more powerful force controlling the entire story than
Teela's luck. What about the luck of all the other "lucky" humans of
Ringworld's present and future? Their luck dictated that the Ringworld
must be a safe place for them to flee the core explosion 20,000 years
from now. In order for the Ringworld to be safe, Teela had to die so
Louis could save the Ringworld.
--
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Martin: "When I'm elected, I will DEMAND a science fiction library,
with the A,B,C's of the OVERLORDS of the genre... Asimov, Bester,
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_____________________________________________________________________
Steve Sloan
Senior in Computer Science at the University of Alabama in Huntsville
E-mail: sl...@geosim.msfc.nasa.gov, Home phone: (205) 773-1309
Stephen Forbes
> I just reread Ringworld and the Ringworld Engineers, right after one
> another.
>
luck
> prevents anything bad happening to her.
>
> Yet, in the Ringworld Engineers, she runs into tree-of-life, and
becomes a
> protector (This may not be bad for her. She's smarter, stronger,
etc.).
> Then, in the fight with Chmee and Louis, she gets various parts of her
body
> chopped off, including her head. This is bad, and most defintly harmed
> her. So, how could it happen? Louis said she was fighting to lose, but
> she can't control her luck, which would prevent her from getting
killed.
> So, how was Louis able to kill her?
>
(How
> else would she have escaped the grogs? Hmm, Larry should write a book
> about Teena's journy to the Map of Mars.) Her luck was probably still
> active when she ate the tree-of-life (Without her luck, she might not
have
> reached the Map in time to safely make the change). Did it just go away
as
> a result of the change to protector, or what?
>
> Any other ideas on this?
Obviously, you skipped the part in Engineers which explained this. SHE
NEVER WAS LUCKY, read "Wheels within wheels" again.
Stephen
Brendan McHugh
Shawn WAgner wrote:
> So, how was Louis able to kill her?I believe that in a conversation with Hindmost the concept came up that
she was one of the few lucky enough to find a cause to die for.
If you can accept that, I have a nice bridge for sale.
Sheldon Simms
In article <DyrsG...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, sfor...@cix.compulink.co.uk
("Stephen Forbes") wrote:
> Obviously, you skipped the part in Engineers which explained this. SHE
> NEVER WAS LUCKY, read "Wheels within wheels" again.
She says she doesn't believe in luck, not that she was not lucky. The details
of her life are evidence that she was lucky. The luck of thousands/millions
of other lucky humans is stronger than her luck. Also even though she was
lucky, it is not necessarily the case that she was supremely lucky. People
like Norman Haywood (Ringworld) were probably even luckier than Teela.
-Sheldon
--
W. Sheldon Simms III - she...@atlcom.net
Andy Williams
In <32552F...@mapsrus.msfc.nasa.gov>, Steve Sloan <sl...@mapsrus.msfc.nasa.gov> writes:
>There was a more powerful force controlling the entire story than
>Teela's luck. What about the luck of all the other "lucky" humans of
>Ringworld's present and future?
>Their luck dictated that the Ringworld
>must be a safe place for them to flee the core explosion 20,000 years
>from now. In order for the Ringworld to be safe, Teela had to die so
>Louis could save the Ringworld.
numerous threads concerning the angular diameter of the core and
diffraction of the radiation around the ring's rim. Within one rotation,
the entire ring surface would be exposed to the radiation from the core
explosion.
Andy Williams <Team OS/2>
andy...@esslink.com http://www.esslink.com/~andywlms/index.html
Stephen Forbes
I think that you missed the point, she never was lucky, the apparent luck
that seemed to follow her around was thrust upon her by those who were
truly lucky and found it was essential to make her look lucky. Up until
the moment of her very necessary death it was essential that she kept her
false luck intact. They couldn't have her dying prematurely!
Then again they could have gone for Louis's idea of punching a hole under
the Great Ocean. They had _ALL_ the necessary tools available to succeed
but then Teela would have lived _AFTER_ she outlived her usefulness!!!
Stephen
Erik Max Francis
Steve Piner wrote:
> Maybe. But then her transformation to a Protector would be unlucky
> for her - therefore it would never have happened.
One could argue that once she turned into a protector, her luck no longer
helped her. Her psychic luck arose from several (what was it, six?)
generations of breeding by lottery, so clearly her luck is to survive to
reproduce.
Protectors are unable to reproduce, and so it stands to reason that once
she became one her luck failed her.
The real question, of course, is why her luck allowed her to eat the
tree-of-life root and become a protector in the first place.
(I don't remember whether this possibility was mentioned in the book or
not.)
--
Erik Max Francis | m...@alcyone.com
Alcyone Systems | http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, California | 37 20 07 N 121 53 38 W
&tSftDotIotE | R^4: the 4th R is respect
Nathan Miller
In some article somewhere, somebody wrote:
>I just reread Ringworld and the Ringworld Engineers, right after one
>another.
>
>Teela Brown, in Ringworld, cannot be serioulsy hurt, or killed. Her luck
>prevents anything bad happening to her.
>So, how was Louis able to kill her?
>
As I recall, Teela was BRED for luck. Meaning, as I grasp it, that her luck
was somehow genetically based. Couldn't her transformation into a Protector
(the expression of previously dormant genes, right? genes that are no longer
entirely compatible with our active ones) have disrupted the action of
whatever made her lucky?
Steve Piner
In article <5370ek$h...@fear.bvstream.com>,
Nathan Miller <njmi...@transport.com> wrote:
: As I recall, Teela was BRED for luck. Meaning, as I grasp it, that her luck
: was somehow genetically based. Couldn't her transformation into a Protector
: (the expression of previously dormant genes, right? genes that are no longer
: entirely compatible with our active ones) have disrupted the action of
: whatever made her lucky?
Maybe. But then her transformation to a Protector would be unlucky
for her - therefore it would never have happened.
Steve
--
____ ____
/ __//___ \ Steve Piner - spi...@comp.vuw.ac.nz
\__ \ | _/-----------------------------------------------------
/___/ |_| (yes, I know it's a BUAF, but it's *my* BUAF) :-)
Sheldon Simms
In article <Dyt1p...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, sfor...@cix.compulink.co.uk
("Stephen Forbes") wrote:
> > In article <DyrsG...@cix.compulink.co.uk>,
> sfor...@cix.compulink.co.uk
> > ("Stephen Forbes") wrote:
> >
> > > Obviously, you skipped the part in Engineers which explained this.
> > > SHE NEVER WAS LUCKY, read "Wheels within wheels" again.
> >
> > She says she doesn't believe in luck, not that she was not lucky.
>
> I think that you missed the point, she never was lucky, the apparent luck
> that seemed to follow her around was thrust upon her by those who were
> truly lucky and found it was essential to make her look lucky.
I got the point. I disagreed with your interpretation of what Teela said
in "Wheels within wheels".
Sheldon Townsend
"Shawn WAgner" <sha...@wpi.edu> writes:
>I just reread Ringworld and the Ringworld Engineers, right after one
>another.
>Teela Brown, in Ringworld, cannot be serioulsy hurt, or killed. Her luck
>prevents anything bad happening to her.
>Yet, in the Ringworld Engineers, she runs into tree-of-life, and becomes a
>protector (This may not be bad for her. She's smarter, stronger, etc.).
>Then, in the fight with Chmee and Louis, she gets various parts of her body
>chopped off, including her head. This is bad, and most defintly harmed
>her. So, how could it happen? Louis said she was fighting to lose, but
>she can't control her luck, which would prevent her from getting killed.
>So, how was Louis able to kill her?
>Her luck was still working up to the point when see became a protector (How
>else would she have escaped the grogs? Hmm, Larry should write a book
>about Teena's journy to the Map of Mars.) Her luck was probably still
>active when she ate the tree-of-life (Without her luck, she might not have
>reached the Map in time to safely make the change). Did it just go away as
>a result of the change to protector, or what?
>Any other ideas on this?
>--
>Shawn Wagner
>sha...@wpi.edu
>http://www.wpi.edu/~shawnw/
Well, it's not worth reading "Ringworld Throne" for but they kinda
speculate in there that maybe she wanted to die for a noble cause.
My own guess is that Pak do't have luck; they don't need it.
--
Shel
Usual disclaimer here.
Stephen Forbes
> I got the point. I disagreed with your interpretation of what Teela said
> in "Wheels within wheels".
>
If Teela really was so lucky, why did she turn out to be the only "lucky"
one to get to the Ringworld and then into a position which ended with her
death. She didn't even have any children, essential if you want your
genetic line to survive, regardless of how lucky you may be. Living on
the Ringworld made this impossible, especially after the change. Knowing
this I say she was particularly hard done by, and been nothing but
unlucky her whole life. If she was lucky, she would have had her first
(birthright) child before leaving for the Ringworld. That way her genetic
line would have survived instead of being isolated and then terminated
with extreme prejudice!!!
No wonder she doesn't believe in luck, she knew that she had been hard
done by. She was superintellegent after all.
Stephen
Barry G Freeman
spi...@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Steve Piner) wrote:
<< Maybe. But then her transformation to a Protector would be unlucky
for her - therefore it would never have happened. >>
Did Teela have access to Boosterspice or equivalent on the ring? If not
she would have died of old age. Paks live much longer (provided they
have something to live _for_) so the change would have been lucky.
It's a long time since I read ...Engineers, I can't remember if Teela
and that other guy found the builder's longevity drug.
--
Barry G Freeman
bfre...@mail.bogo.co.uk
fre...@sdg.co.uk
Sheldon Simms
In article <VA.00000031.00107dda@barry>, bfre...@mail.bogo.co.uk wrote:
> spi...@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Steve Piner) wrote:
> << Maybe. But then her transformation to a Protector would be unlucky
> for her - therefore it would never have happened. >>
>
> Did Teela have access to Boosterspice or equivalent on the ring? If not
> she would have died of old age. Paks live much longer (provided they
> have something to live _for_) so the change would have been lucky.
I think this is a very good point. Since Teela was stranded on the Ringworld
without boosterspice, becoming a protector was the only means of preserving
her life past a "normal" span. It was lucky for that reason at least.
> It's a long time since I read ...Engineers, I can't remember if Teela
> and that other guy found the builder's longevity drug.
Seeker apparantly had some. I *think* it was stated that it would not work
for Teela or Louis, that without reference.
Austin Lange
In article <VA.00000031.00107dda@barry> Barry G Freeman
>spi...@comp.vuw.ac.nz (Steve Piner) wrote:
><< Maybe. But then her transformation to a Protector would be unlucky
>for her - therefore it would never have happened. >>
>
>Did Teela have access to Boosterspice or equivalent on the ring? If not
>she would have died of old age. Paks live much longer (provided they
>have something to live _for_) so the change would have been lucky.
>
>and that other guy found the builder's longevity drug.
>
If I recall correctly that Seeker guy (whatever his name was)
"purchased" Teela Brown "from" Louis Wu for an undefined quantity of
the builders longevity drug. Unless he was even stupider than he
appeared this would not be his total remaining supply. Ringworld did
imply that he himself was taking the longevity drug for quite some time
before he met Teela.
Erik Max Francis
Stephen Forbes wrote:
> If Teela really was so lucky, why did she turn out to be the only "lucky"
> one to get to the Ringworld and then into a position which ended with her
> death. . . .
This is why I liked Niven's treatment of "psychic luck," even though the
idea itself is scientifically pretty silly. It's not clear exactly how
reliable the luck is, and moreover, the mechanism under which it operates.
Since Niven never closed the issue by disclosing the real reason why Teela
could die even though she was psychically lucky, it's an open issue. Surely
none of the characters were sure. This is why I think the subject was
presented well in _Ringworld_ and _The Ringworld engineers_.
Barry G Freeman
she...@atlcom.net (Sheldon Simms) wrote:
>
> > she would have died of old age. Paks live much longer (provided
they
> > have something to live _for_) so the change would have been lucky.
>
Ringworld
> without boosterspice, becoming a protector was the only means of
preserving
> her life past a "normal" span. It was lucky for that reason at least.
>
Teela
> > and that other guy found the builder's longevity drug.
>
work
> for Teela or Louis, that without reference.
>
Yup, I remember..boosterspice didn't work for
Hrarlo..harlro...Haha...wossername, the builder they took back did it?
So it's probable that their one would have worked for Teela as well.
Does Niven ever get on line, I wonder?
Barry G Freeman
ala...@MNSi.net (Austin Lange) wrote:
> >It's a long time since I read ...Engineers, I can't remember if
Teela
> >and that other guy found the builder's longevity drug.
> If I recall correctly that Seeker guy (whatever his name was)
> "purchased" Teela Brown "from" Louis Wu for an undefined quantity of
> the builders longevity drug. Unless he was even stupider than he
> appeared this would not be his total remaining supply. Ringworld did
> imply that he himself was taking the longevity drug for quite some
time
> before he met Teela.
Yep, but his drug wouldn't have worked for Teela, only for him. And she
didn't have any Boosterspice...
Tim Atkinson
In article <VA.00000036.0126bce4@barry>
[sig snipped]
Wasn't one hypothesis that a protector manufactured the longevity drug
when they needed aid with a project, and that it was a more general
solution than boosterspice, working on many hominid species.
The further thought occurs.... is there only one varient of
Boosterspice, or are there varients to deal with the slightly evolved/adapted
humans found in known space (Albinos on we made it etc.)?
--
Tim Atkinson
Jeff Hupp
In article <845298...@npagroup.demon.co.uk>,
T...@npagroup.demon.co.uk (Tim Atkinson) bound the electrons into the following form:
:
: Wasn't one hypothesis that a protector manufactured the longevity drug
: when they needed aid with a project, and that it was a more general
: solution than boosterspice, working on many hominid species.
That's what I remember. Also that it might have been derived from
the tree-of-life virus in some way.
:
: The further thought occurs.... is there only one varient of
: Boosterspice, or are there varients to deal with the slightly evolved/adapted
: humans found in known space (Albinos on we made it etc.)?
:
The differences between the humans in known space didn't have nearly
the time or space to develop as the did on the Ringworld, so the divergence
couldn't be vary far ~ they could interbreed.
--
Jeff Hupp | PGP Public Key | It's always September,
<JH...@Gensys.com> | available at | @ AOL
<http://Gensys.com/> | http://gensys.com |________________________
S. Blakey
Teela's "Luck" was not really hers at all, it was the luck of the truly
lucky humans back on Earth. This luck drove her to be mistakenly selected
and sent to the Ringworld, so that she could become protector, stop the
instability, discourage puppeteers from meddling in human genetics, and
prepare the Ringworld as an ideal new home for the lucky humans fleeing
the core explosion.
Sean Blakey
Cadet, AFROTC
University of Washington