Second Foundation, what seems to be an out of place reference?
L Alpert
perspectives can change over time (and memory fades!).
I noticed that in the Second Foundation book something that didn't really
stick out the last few times I have read it, but for some reason this time
it is peculiar.......(this may have been discussed before in this group)....
Bayata's granddaughter Arcady (at the age of 14) eventually let's in a
visitor through her window after some discussion. After she let's him in,
there is a reference that she makes to having a "baseball bat" under her
bed, which is why she wasn't too concerned about letting a stranger in
through her window.
The reference of a baseball bat in this supposed timeframe just seemed so
out of place. I would think it would be part of a long forgotten part of
human history along with the origins of mankind, or something of this
nature.
It just kind of jumped out at me this time and I keep replaying it over in
my mind, and it seems just as odd every time......
I guess the reference just seemed so out of place.....(again, maybe it's
just me). Did anyone else find this reference odd?
Joseph Nebus
>Bayata's granddaughter Arcady (at the age of 14) eventually let's in a
>visitor through her window after some discussion. After she let's him in,
>there is a reference that she makes to having a "baseball bat" under her
>bed, which is why she wasn't too concerned about letting a stranger in
>through her window. [ ... ]
>I guess the reference just seemed so out of place.....(again, maybe it's
>just me). Did anyone else find this reference odd?
It is odd, yes. Baseball in a recognizable form has only been
around since the 1840s; to think it's going to survive for 25,000 years
is ... straining things, certainly. Even cricket only goes back to the
time of King George III's father, really. Tennis was played as far back
as the time of King Henry V, but the game was rather different.
Ultimately, I think this has to be chalked up to Asimov's desire
to not throw in ``call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp'' references, the way he didn't
put in silly made-up words to take the place of distance or time measures.
In the introduction to the Silverberg co-authored Nightfall he mentions
asking the reader to think of it as part of the translation process, the
way the rest of the language is translated into late 20th century versions
except for things like personal names that shouldn't be transformed.
He did a similar thing in 'Forward the Foundation', where it's a
rather important plot point that a character thinks she heard ``lemonade
death''.
It does still come across weird. You don't want the readers to
waste time looking at things that just don't matter, and certainly if the
language of the Galactic Empire 25,000 years from now can be changed into
contemporary English for the other 145,998 words in the story you can go
the remaining two, but there *is* something to be said for the atmosphere
of smeerp words. I suppose it matters which words feel like they're tied
too closely to contemporary culture and which words feel like versions
ought to exist in alternate languages.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
L Alpert
With all of the care taken in the verbiage of this series of the good
doctor's books, it does almost seem as the "baseball bat" reference was done
purposely.
In the case of the lemonade that you point out, one could assume that even
after 25,000 years that it could still exist along the same lines as other
items such as apples and water, though these probably would not be
considered as only currently contemporary items (depending on how one
defines contemporary).
There are other instances in the series where items that exist are what they
are now and could conceivably still be in 25k years, such as trees, grass,
insects, animals, etc, as for most of them, the amount of time would be
considered a small amount when thinking in terms of evolutionary scales.
For my latest go round (my 5th reading over the past 30 years), the baseball
bat reference was as you described, "weird", and I agree with your
assessment of it being a fairly recent term of the language (thereby
contemporary).
Within the context of the social systems created in the foundations series,
IMO it is difficult (for me) to believe that humans would still be partaking
in this activity when one considers all the lost knowledge of the "origins"
of the human race.
Richard Schultz
: Ultimately, I think this [Arkady Darrell's "baseball bat"] has to
: be chalked up to Asimov's desire to not throw in "call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp"
: references, the way he didn't put in silly made-up words to take the place
: of distance or time measures.
To what do you chalk up Asimov's having Preem Palver and his wife speak
with Yiddish accents?
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel
Opinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University
-----
"Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad."
L Alpert
> In article <nebusj.1...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, Joseph Nebus
> <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>
>> Ultimately, I think this [Arkady Darrell's "baseball bat"]
>> has to be chalked up to Asimov's desire to not throw in
>> "call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp" references, the way he didn't put in silly
>> made-up words to take the place of distance or time measures.
>
> To what do you chalk up Asimov's having Preem Palver and his wife
> speak
> with Yiddish accents?
Upbringing?
Richard Schultz
: Richard Schultz wrote:
:> In article <nebusj.1...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, Joseph Nebus
:> <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
:>> Ultimately, I think this [Arkady Darrell's "baseball bat"]
:>> has to be chalked up to Asimov's desire to not throw in
:>> "call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp" references, the way he didn't put in silly
:>> made-up words to take the place of distance or time measures.
:> To what do you chalk up Asimov's having Preem Palver and his wife
:> speak with Yiddish accents?
: Upbringing?
Why would you accept that as an explanation for the one thing, but not the
other? By the way, in one of the "Galactic Empire" novels, it is suggested
that the units of distance and time are related to units used on humanity's
original planet, although not everyone accepts that explanation.
If you're going to worry about the Foundation series, you might worry
about the inconsistencies in the names of the Four Kingdoms; in _Foundation_,
they are given as Anacreon, Smyrno, Konom, and Daribow, but in _Second
Foundation_, "Loris" is mentioned as being "one of the original Four Kingdoms."
For that matter, IIRC, the chronology given in _Second Foundation_ is
inconsistent with that given in _Foundation and Empire_.
L Alpert
> In article <ctH8i.12413$2v1....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net>, L
> Alpert <alp...@xxgmail.com> wrote:
>> Richard Schultz wrote:
>>> In article <nebusj.1...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, Joseph Nebus
>>> <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>
>>>> Ultimately, I think this [Arkady Darrell's "baseball bat"]
>>>> has to be chalked up to Asimov's desire to not throw in
>>>> "call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp" references, the way he didn't put in silly
>>>> made-up words to take the place of distance or time measures.
>
>>> To what do you chalk up Asimov's having Preem Palver and his wife
>>> speak with Yiddish accents?
>
>> Upbringing?
>
> Why would you accept that as an explanation for the one thing, but
> not the
> other?
I ment the good Dr. Asimov's upbringing. It is highly probable that Yiddish
(or one of the derivatives) was spoken in the home when he was a child.
> By the way, in one of the "Galactic Empire" novels, it is
> suggested
> that the units of distance and time are related to units used on
> humanity's
> original planet, although not everyone accepts that explanation.
Yes, I believe I recall this being somewhere.
>
> If you're going to worry about the Foundation series, you might worry
> about the inconsistencies in the names of the Four Kingdoms; in
> _Foundation_,
> they are given as Anacreon, Smyrno, Konom, and Daribow, but in _Second
> Foundation_, "Loris" is mentioned as being "one of the original Four
> Kingdoms."
> For that matter, IIRC, the chronology given in _Second Foundation_ is
> inconsistent with that given in _Foundation and Empire_.
I agree there are inconsistencies within the stories. The reference to a
baseball bat just struck me as odd, and I guess I was more amazed that it
didn't stand out the first 4 times I read the series.
Joseph Nebus
>In article <nebusj.1...@vcmr-86.server.rpi.edu>, Joseph Nebus <nebusj-@-rpi-.edu> wrote:
>: Ultimately, I think this [Arkady Darrell's "baseball bat"] has to
>: be chalked up to Asimov's desire to not throw in "call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp"
>: references, the way he didn't put in silly made-up words to take the place
>: of distance or time measures.
>To what do you chalk up Asimov's having Preem Palver and his wife speak
>with Yiddish accents?
You know, that's a good underlying question, since the Yiddish
Palver never struck me as sticking out unnaturally. Perhaps it's that
I kind of read it as ``they sound like the yokels from the old country'',
something every society will have, so translating them that way gives
the social connotation that Palver was going for efficiently.
I should consider this more, though.
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joseph Nebus
in 'Foundation' the first book, there's a mention to a Newton industrial
site of some kind (I forget just which).
I've never been sure whether that reflects Asimov just not coming
to the conclusion it was so far in the future that contemporary history
would not even be legend, or just a simple anachronism of naming something
after Isaac Newton, or whether it's a reflection of Asimov knowing quite
well that people insist on naming things 'New Town' over and over again no
matter how the name gets manged in successive generations. (I've read in
at least one source that 'Cartagena' is just 'New Town' in, well,
Carthegenian, and I now and then look over maps eagerly for someplace
named New Catagena Town, and don't go telling me about Hill Hill Hill Hill
because I've heard the story and as I understand it it's not clear that's
actually true anyway.)
--
Joseph Nebus
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tim Bruening
Joseph Nebus wrote:
Hari's wife Dors eventually uncovered a plot to commit murder using the
"Elar-Monay" Electro-Clarifier, which was also a "layman-aided" device, having
been invented with the help of a non-Psychohistorian.
I find it amazing that in the Galactic Empire language, the words for "Lemonade",
"Layman-Aided", and "Elar-Monay" all happen to sound the same!
dwight...@gmail.com
Don't forget that common beast of burden widely used in the backwater
provinces, the lemac.
Mike Stone
"Tim Bruening"
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote in
message
news:46743C3E...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us...
Ditto for the requirement that students sign
their work by initial and surname only,
"except for Olynthus Dam, because of how
everyone had laughed when he did so".
Evidently they still speak English in the
25th Millennium.
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough, England
I've never understood how people could take
Hitler seriously.
All that tripe about Germans being the
Master race and natural rulers of the world,
when _everybody_ knew that was the English.
Tim Bruening
Mike Stone wrote:
Was there a student named B.M.?
Tim Bruening
L Alpert wrote:
> I usually go back and reread a few of my favorite books every few years, as
> perspectives can change over time (and memory fades!).
>
> I noticed that in the Second Foundation book something that didn't really
> stick out the last few times I have read it, but for some reason this time
> it is peculiar.......(this may have been discussed before in this group)....
>
> Bayata's granddaughter Arcady (at the age of 14) eventually let's in a
> visitor through her window after some discussion. After she let's him in,
> there is a reference that she makes to having a "baseball bat" under her
> bed, which is why she wasn't too concerned about letting a stranger in
> through her window.
>
> The reference of a baseball bat in this supposed timeframe just seemed so
> out of place. I would think it would be part of a long forgotten part of
> human history along with the origins of mankind, or something of this
> nature.
You doubt that baseball will last that long as a sport?
Which of today's sports has been played the longest?
Tim Bruening
Joseph Nebus wrote:
Hari's wife Dors eventually uncovered a plot to commit murder using the
Tim Bruening
Mike Stone wrote:
Was there a student named B.M.?
Dorothy J Heydt
Tim Bruening <tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>Which of today's sports has been played the longest?
Rock/scissors/paper.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at hotmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the hotmail edress.
Kithrup is getting too damn much spam, even with the sysop's filters.
Howard Brazee
<tsbr...@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>Which of today's sports has been played the longest?
Some Olympic sport such as running. Although continually would be
some military sport such as archery.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Sean O'Hara
declared:
>
> Which of today's sports has been played the longest?
>
Of team sports, probably lacrosse and then tennis, but of course
there've always been ball games, some of which have things in common
with modern games.
But general athletic competitions between individuals -- running,
jumping, throwing -- date to the dawn of civilization.
--
Sean O'Hara <http://diogenes-sinope.blogspot.com>
Cowboy: Time for the mammoth hunt, dudes!
-Futurama
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>Of team sports, probably lacrosse and then tennis, but of course
>there've always been ball games, some of which have things in common
>with modern games.
Is crew a team sport? If tennis is a team sport, then relay running
is as well.
Horse racing is very old.
L Alpert
It's not that I doubt how long the sport would last, it just seems out of
context within the framework of this future civilization.
Drak Bibliophile
news:J2hhl.15093$YU2....@nlpi066.nbdc.sbc.com...
Well, Asimov could have made up a sport that used something that Arcady
could have used as a club, but then he'd have to explain what the sport was.
As it was, the reader quickly accepted a baseball bat as a weapon of
self-defense.
Why should Asimov use a dozens of words to establish that Arcady was
prepared for trouble when using 'baseball bat' required fewer words?
--
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile), AIM id DrakeBookLover
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
Michael Stemper
>Joseph Nebus wrote:
>> "L Alpert" <alp...@xxgmail.com> writes:
>> >there is a reference that she makes to having a "baseball bat" under her
>> >bed, which is why she wasn't too concerned about letting a stranger in
>> >through her window. [ ... ]
>>
>> >I guess the reference just seemed so out of place.....(again, maybe it's
>> >just me). Did anyone else find this reference odd?
>> Ultimately, I think this has to be chalked up to Asimov's desire
>> to not throw in ``call-a-rabbit-a-smeerp'' references, the way he didn't
>> put in silly made-up words to take the place of distance or time measures.
>> He did a similar thing in 'Forward the Foundation', where it's a
>> rather important plot point that a character thinks she heard ``lemonade
>> death''.
>Hari's wife Dors eventually uncovered a plot to commit murder using the
>"Elar-Monay" Electro-Clarifier, which was also a "layman-aided" device,
>having
>been invented with the help of a non-Psychohistorian.
>
>I find it amazing that in the Galactic Empire language, the words for
>"Lemonade",
>"Layman-Aided", and "Elar-Monay" all happen to sound the same!
Well, Asimov had to change the names. In Galacti-Speak, their names were
"JeanAnn" and "Tunix". However, "JeanAnn-Tunix" death wouldn't work for
a twentieth-century audience, so he changed their names.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Product Manager
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
Always use apostrophe's and "quotation marks" properly.
PV
>Well, Asimov had to change the names. In Galacti-Speak, their names were
>"JeanAnn" and "Tunix". However, "JeanAnn-Tunix" death wouldn't work for
>a twentieth-century audience, so he changed their names.
/me sticks a gold star on your forehead, and cancels your ticket to the B
ark.
*
--
* PV something like badgers--something like lizards--and something
like corkscrews.
Tim Bruening
Michael Stemper wrote:
I was unaware that "Elar" was a woman!
Tim Bruening
Drak Bibliophile wrote:
I wonder if golf will still be played in 20,000 years. If so, Arcady could use
a golf club.
nemo
To a small girl half asleep they sounded similar. Not unlikely.
I've just begun reading the Dune books again. The old witch with the
poisoned needle has just gom.