Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
MarkusMac
Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from another galaxy and then
the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on him. I'm not sure what IA is implying
with this last passage. IT SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and
foreshadowing a nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia
(but how can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?) Anyways,
I was hoping someone might have an insight this book's ending or if Asimov
ever added to this story in another Foundation novel. (was FORWARD THE
FOUNDATION his last?) Thanks,
Ogden Johnson III
: Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with regards to
I'm pretty sure that that is addressed in the FAQ [I've got to read that
again, it's been a couple of years {bows head in total shame} since my
last reread.]. Anyway, the question comes up a one or two times a year,
every one argu^H^H^H^Hdiscusses what IA could possibly have meant, whether
he really intended to write another Foundation book to clear it up, and
how he would clear it up if he were to. Great fun that never goes
anywhere. It has been quite a while since the last go around. IA never
did return to that end of the Foundation story, so feel free to speculate
about how he would have finished it off had he done so. I tend to find
myself on four or five sides of that particular discussion. ;->
OJ III
Jason M. Collins
Yes, Forward was the last. It left the whole ending up in the air. If you
have ever seen the director's cut to "Bladerunner", you don't know if they
will live or die, of if they will get married and live happily ever after.
You just don't know.
Golan Trevis was left with a profound choice: Gaia or Second Foundation.
Daneel Olivaw, if I remember correctly (which I do not claim with any
certanty) merged with Fallom not only because he was a bit damaged and
wouldn't last much longer, but to also incorporate into him a piece of
humanity. Now, you may say Fallom isn't human, but what is more human than
a being evolved from Earth folks who is both male and female at once? It
makes a perfect choice for Daneel. So Daneel gains a human perspective and
renewed life, while Fallom gains a purpose and a bonding, but Golan's
decision is still unclear.
Does the Second Foundation continue as it has, or does the galaxy begin to
realize the nature of Gaia? I believe Asimov left this intentionally
unanswered, and that if those supposed three new Foundation books attempt
to finish this, they would only do damage to the legacy of the series...
-- Jason M. Collins
On 7 Jul 1998, MarkusMac wrote:
> Date: 7 Jul 1998 09:22:47 GMT
> From: MarkusMac <mark...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with regards to
> Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from another galaxy and then
> the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on him. I'm not sure what IA is implying
> with this last passage. IT SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and
> foreshadowing a nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia
> (but how can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?) Anyways,
> I was hoping someone might have an insight this book's ending or if Asimov
> ever added to this story in another Foundation novel. (was FORWARD THE
> FOUNDATION his last?) Thanks,
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Consultant's Curse:
When the customer has beaten upon you long enough, give him
what he asks for, instead of what he needs. This is very strong
medicine, and is normally only required once.
----------------------
NOTICE: I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail.
Any such e-mail sent to me will be forwarded & reported to
the sender's ISP for abuse of internet e-mail.
Don't waste my time and your internet access.
----------------------
Jason M. Collins
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Macintosh Software Specialist
Computing Services
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jm...@comp.uark.edu
This email in no way represents the views or policies of
Computing Services or the University of Arkansas.
Jason M. Collins
Of course, the best choice is Gaia. The real question: How to bring this
to the galaxy... Was that the main reason of the merging of Daneel and
Fallom? :) How do you teach billions of trillions of beings that not only
they are not separate from the planets they are on, but not separate from
each other, in any way? How does one bring about a galactic Gaia? I'm sure
Daneel has a way, otherwise he would not have brought Trevis through all
this trouble. *hmmmmm* -- Jason Collins
On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Ogden Johnson III wrote:
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 11:02:18 GMT
> From: Ogden Johnson III <o...@cpcug.org>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> MarkusMac (mark...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with regards to
> : Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from another galaxy and then
> : the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on him. I'm not sure what IA is implying
> : with this last passage. IT SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and
> : foreshadowing a nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia
> : (but how can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?) Anyways,
> : I was hoping someone might have an insight this book's ending or if Asimov
> : ever added to this story in another Foundation novel. (was FORWARD THE
> : FOUNDATION his last?) Thanks,
>
> I'm pretty sure that that is addressed in the FAQ [I've got to read that
> again, it's been a couple of years {bows head in total shame} since my
> last reread.]. Anyway, the question comes up a one or two times a year,
> every one argu^H^H^H^Hdiscusses what IA could possibly have meant, whether
> he really intended to write another Foundation book to clear it up, and
> how he would clear it up if he were to. Great fun that never goes
> anywhere. It has been quite a while since the last go around. IA never
> did return to that end of the Foundation story, so feel free to speculate
> about how he would have finished it off had he done so. I tend to find
> myself on four or five sides of that particular discussion. ;->
>
> OJ III
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew P Wiener
>Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with
>regards to Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from
>another galaxy and then the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on
>him. I'm not sure what IA is implying with this last passage. IT
>SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and foreshadowing a
>nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia (but how
>can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?)
According to Asimov himself (in one of his IASFM editorials), the
ending of F&E was a deliberate hook for the next Foundation novel.
He had every intention of continuing the story, once he figured out
what that story was going to be.
Unfortunately, Asimov found he had painted himself into a corner, and
never did think of a way out of it. He wrote PTF and FTF instead.
--
-Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 7 Jul 1998 12:48:05 GMT
> From: Matthew P Wiener <wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
I bet those 3 "new" foundation books will either bypass that ending, or
totally mess it up. I may try to work together some ideas of my own...
-- Jason C.
> --
> -Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu)
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Life can be easy. It's not always swell. Don't tell me the truth hurts,
little girl, 'Cause it hurts like hell." -- David Bowie, The Labyrinth
Mike Smith
Matthew P Wiener wrote:
> In article <199807070922...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, markusmac@aol (MarkusMac) writes:
> >Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with
> >regards to Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from
> >another galaxy and then the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on
> >him. I'm not sure what IA is implying with this last passage. IT
> >SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and foreshadowing a
> >nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia (but how
> >can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?)
>
> According to Asimov himself (in one of his IASFM editorials), the
> ending of F&E was a deliberate hook for the next Foundation novel.
> He had every intention of continuing the story, once he figured out
> what that story was going to be.
Makes sense. If memory serves _every_ sequel to the original Foundation story was written to close
the door on the series while leaving things open ended enough to possibly write another.
> Unfortunately, Asimov found he had painted himself into a corner, and
> never did think of a way out of it. He wrote PTF and FTF instead.
I find this intriguing. Several potential resolutions have ocurred to me, simply because the
Encyclopedia Galactica excerpts imply that the Foundations made it and the Second Empire lasted at
least fifty-six years.
Consider Daneel's plan. He wants to create a single collective human consciousness so humanity
would be easier to protect. He's observing the Zeroth Law. Bully for him.
However, in order to carry out this plan, he has to integrate the collective human consciousness
with everything else in the galaxy. Using only human beings was too unstable. What's more, the
plan is so gargantuan in scope that it will take centuries to execute (Daneel supported the
Foundations to buy himself time.). On top of all that, it's a pretty big risk, and he may not
survive long enough to carry this out.
His solution: Find Golan Trevize, a man reputed to always make the right decisions, and ask _him_
for permission to begin work. If Golan says yes, Daneel will believe that the Galaxia project
can't miss, and it's the best thing to do. And just to make sure that he lives long enough, he'll
merge himself with Fallom, a long-lived human.
Think about this. It makes sense to an extent, but Daneel's obviously grasping at straws. TO
carry out this robot-created Zeroth law, he's willing to harm one human (Fallom), and use Golan's
permission as justification. He's putting the Zeroth law ahead of the First, but he's putting the
Second ahead of both of them. What? Is there a Negative First Law that lets a robot search fo a
really lucky human for guidance?
Moreover, if Daneel merges with Fallom, they'll become a being neither human nor robot: a cyborg.
Humans can be predicted by psychohistory, robots by their Laws. A cyborg would be Something Else.
For all we know, Daneel/Fallom will have a nervous breakdown and become a genocidal maniac. And no
one could stop him.
Besides, by Daneel's own admission, he's sick. This implies that his present planning might be
flawed, and his future intentions may become even worse. Does he even know _how_ to merge with a
human?
Finally, Daneel's plan violates the Zeroth Law. If he incorporates humanity into his Galaxia,
humanity would become no longer human. Yeah, they might be better off, but the Zeroth Law doesn't
say anything about _improving_ humanity. It only says not to _harm_ humanity. Since humanity is
defined by individuality and independence from the rest of the universe, Daneel would be changing
humanity. Not allowed.
So there's plenty of open ends to pick up on in another Foundation sequel.
--Mike Smith
Tom Scalf
<jm...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:
>
<snip>
>
>I bet those 3 "new" foundation books will either bypass that ending, or
>totally mess it up. I may try to work together some ideas of my own...
>
>-- Jason C.
>
The first two of the three new Foundation books fill in gaps in time
between PTF and FTF (Foundation Fear) and FTF and Foundation
(Foundation & Chaos- which I'm reading now). Don't remember right now
what period the third will cover.
Tom
Richard Schultz
: It started that way. The first Foundation story was written with the
: first Seldon Crisis in progress, and no solution was presented, other
: than it was "obvious". Asimov himself had no idea what the solution
: was, and credits Lester del Rey for suggesting science-as-religion.
The "obvious" solution that Salvor Hardin was referring to was not
science-as-religion. He tells the Actionist party leader explicitly
what the "obvious" solution was. After Anacreon occupied Terminus,
he went to the other Three Kingdoms (in "Foundation," they are listed
as Smyrna, Konom, and Daribow, but in "Second Foundation," "Loris" is
mentioned as one of the Original Four Kingdoms), and pointed out to
each of them that by allowing Anacreon to stay on Terminus and
appropriating its technology, they were signing their own death warrants.
Anacreon received a joint ultimatum to leave forthwith. After that,
the Foundation brought the technology to all Four Kingdoms, and it
grew into a Cult of Science.
I'm not sure at which point Asimov got stuck, but I thought that it was
Frederik Pohl who suggested that he continue with science-as-religion.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"I've lost my harmonica, Albert."
Matthew P Wiener
>The "obvious" solution that Salvor Hardin was referring to was not
>science-as-religion. He tells the Actionist party leader explicitly
>I'm not sure at which point Asimov got stuck, but I thought that it was
>Frederik Pohl who suggested that he continue with science-as-religion.
Right and right.
Sorry folks, for posting gibber.
Matthew P Wiener
>Matthew P Wiener wrote:
>> According to Asimov himself (in one of his IASFM editorials), the
>> ending of F&E was a deliberate hook for the next Foundation novel.
>> He had every intention of continuing the story, once he figured out
>> what that story was going to be.
>Makes sense. If memory serves _every_ sequel to the original
>Foundation story was written to close the door on the series while
>leaving things open ended enough to possibly write another.
It started that way. The first Foundation story was written with the
first Seldon Crisis in progress, and no solution was presented, other
than it was "obvious". Asimov himself had no idea what the solution
was, and credits Lester del Rey for suggesting science-as-religion.
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:10:35 -0500
> From: Mike Smith <mps...@pop.uky.edu>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
>
> Matthew P Wiener wrote:
>
> > In article <199807070922...@ladder01.news.aol.com>, markusmac@aol (MarkusMac) writes:
> > >Can some one explain the last paragraph of the novel to me with
> > >regards to Trevize's speech about the contact with lifeforms from
> > >another galaxy and then the 'brooding eyes of Fallom' resting on
> > >him. I'm not sure what IA is implying with this last passage. IT
> > >SEEMS to be setting the stage for a next novel and foreshadowing a
> > >nefarious role for Fallom with regards to the future Galaxia (but how
> > >can this be when Daneel is going to merge with the boy/girl?)
> >
> > According to Asimov himself (in one of his IASFM editorials), the
> > ending of F&E was a deliberate hook for the next Foundation novel.
> > He had every intention of continuing the story, once he figured out
> > what that story was going to be.
>
> Makes sense. If memory serves _every_ sequel to the original Foundation story was written to close
> the door on the series while leaving things open ended enough to possibly write another.
>
I'm believe that Gaia is the way. But perhaps I see Gaia differently. The
planets would all be Gaia when finished, and I have devised a way to do
this, but a person can choose to be connected or not. By giving them a
choice, it takes out the fear of losing one's identity. The main purpose
is to make all the planets of the Empire and beings and organisms other
than human into Gaia, for that is the basic state of nature. I'm assuming
a lot, you may say, and I'm presuming alot, as Daneel would be, but the
best way would be to create Gaia, and then each humanoid can choose to
link themselves or not at any time. You have to realize that the Second
Foundation has been manipulating people, making them do things not quite
intentioned by them. The whole series is a chess game. You can't just say
that Daneel broke a few of the rules, and say that the Second Foundation
doesn't have to follow them either. We are talking about social
engineering, and all this social engineering began with Hari Seldon, or so
it seems. (Cheddar Hummin had a bit to do with that :) What if Daneel gets
Fallom's permission? What if Fallom decides to do this? Why consider only
what could go wrong? My 50 cents worth. :) If anyone wants a copy of my
ideas about how to make Gaia work, email me at jm...@comp.uark.edu...
-- Jason C.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat.
Mike Smith
Jason M. Collins wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Mike Smith wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:10:35 -0500
> > From: Mike Smith <mps...@pop.uky.edu>
> > Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> > Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
> >
> >
> >
> > Matthew P Wiener wrote:
> >
> I'm believe that Gaia is the way. But perhaps I see Gaia differently. The
> planets would all be Gaia when finished, and I have devised a way to do
> this, but a person can choose to be connected or not. By giving them a
> choice, it takes out the fear of losing one's identity. The main purpose
> is to make all the planets of the Empire and beings and organisms other
> than human into Gaia, for that is the basic state of nature. I'm assuming
> a lot, you may say, and I'm presuming alot, as Daneel would be, but the
> best way would be to create Gaia, and then each humanoid can choose to
> link themselves or not at any time.
I'm not saying Gaia is a bad thing. I'm just saying that everything I've heard about it is pretty
dubious. It all hangs on the hopes of a machine who's _well_ past his warranty. Then again, if Daneel
could pull it off, that'd be great.
On the other hand, I have to admit that I feel a little annoyed that I read the entire Foundation series,
about a political tactic that would save humanity in one thousand years, and in the end it's revealed
that not only will it not work, but it was never _supposed_ to work. If a sequel to F&E could put the
kibosh on Gaia, I wouldn't terribly mind.
> You have to realize that the Second
> Foundation has been manipulating people, making them do things not quite
> intentioned by them. The whole series is a chess game. You can't just say
> that Daneel broke a few of the rules, and say that the Second Foundation
> doesn't have to follow them either.
Sure I can (although I didn't before). The Second Foundation is made up of humans. Daneel's a robot.
Robots have to follow the Laws of Robotics. Humans are held in place by their ethics and some wishful
thinking.
> We are talking about social
> engineering, and all this social engineering began with Hari Seldon, or so
> it seems. (Cheddar Hummin had a bit to do with that :) What if Daneel gets
> Fallom's permission? What if Fallom decides to do this? Why consider only
> what could go wrong? My 50 cents worth. :) If anyone wants a copy of my
> ideas about how to make Gaia work, email me at jm...@comp.uark.edu...
Well, I'm just pointing out ideas that could drive a sequel. Daneel could do this IF he merges with
Fallom and survives for another four hundred years, IF he knows what he's doing, and IF (and here's the
big one) no one else finds out about his plan. Golan pointed out that the Foundation only works when
humans are the only intelligent life in the galaxy. Now given that, he prefers the Galaxia that _could_
work versus the Foundation that won't.
So what if some other Foundationers learned of Gaia, Earth, and Daneel? Would they be so keen on giving
up their Seldon Plan for this crazy idea? No, they'd preserve the integrity of psychohistory by
destroying all non-human life. That means the robots, Solarians, the aliens from "Blind Alley",
whatever, would be fair game for a Foundation gone mad with paranoia. The Mule came from Gaia, remember?
And while Gaia is powerful enough to hold back Terminus, Daneel's base on the moon is easy pickings. All
someone has to do is find it.
--Mike Smith
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:30:27 -0500
> From: Mike Smith <mps...@pop.uky.edu>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
>
> Jason M. Collins wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 7 Jul 1998, Mike Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 22:10:35 -0500
> > > From: Mike Smith <mps...@pop.uky.edu>
> > > Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> > > Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Matthew P Wiener wrote:
> > >
> > I'm believe that Gaia is the way. But perhaps I see Gaia differently. The
> > planets would all be Gaia when finished, and I have devised a way to do
> > this, but a person can choose to be connected or not. By giving them a
> > choice, it takes out the fear of losing one's identity. The main purpose
> > is to make all the planets of the Empire and beings and organisms other
> > than human into Gaia, for that is the basic state of nature. I'm assuming
> > a lot, you may say, and I'm presuming alot, as Daneel would be, but the
> > best way would be to create Gaia, and then each humanoid can choose to
> > link themselves or not at any time.
>
> I'm not saying Gaia is a bad thing. I'm just saying that everything I've heard about it is pretty
> dubious. It all hangs on the hopes of a machine who's _well_ past his warranty. Then again, if Daneel
> could pull it off, that'd be great.
>
> On the other hand, I have to admit that I feel a little annoyed that I read the entire Foundation series,
> about a political tactic that would save humanity in one thousand years, and in the end it's revealed
> that not only will it not work, but it was never _supposed_ to work. If a sequel to F&E could put the
> kibosh on Gaia, I wouldn't terribly mind.
Please explain kibosh on Gaia, I'm not familiar with the word kibosh.
>
> > You have to realize that the Second
> > Foundation has been manipulating people, making them do things not quite
> > intentioned by them. The whole series is a chess game. You can't just say
> > that Daneel broke a few of the rules, and say that the Second Foundation
> > doesn't have to follow them either.
>
> Sure I can (although I didn't before). The Second Foundation is made up of humans. Daneel's a robot.
> Robots have to follow the Laws of Robotics. Humans are held in place by their ethics and some wishful
> thinking.
Daneel also has to save humanity from itself. Never underestimate the
power of human stupidity.
>
> > We are talking about social
> > engineering, and all this social engineering began with Hari Seldon, or so
> > it seems. (Cheddar Hummin had a bit to do with that :) What if Daneel gets
> > Fallom's permission? What if Fallom decides to do this? Why consider only
> > what could go wrong? My 50 cents worth. :) If anyone wants a copy of my
> > ideas about how to make Gaia work, email me at jm...@comp.uark.edu...
>
> Well, I'm just pointing out ideas that could drive a sequel. Daneel could do this IF he merges with
> Fallom and survives for another four hundred years, IF he knows what he's doing, and IF (and here's the
> big one) no one else finds out about his plan. Golan pointed out that the Foundation only works when
> humans are the only intelligent life in the galaxy. Now given that, he prefers the Galaxia that _could_
> work versus the Foundation that won't.
I don't remember exactly what was wrong with Daneel, but if done right,
Fallom and Daneel could be recombined into a type of cyborg that would
have an indeterminate lifespan. Unfortunately, Golan Trevis or Bliss would
have to perform it as it unless they found a cybernetic/organic
specialist.
>
> So what if some other Foundationers learned of Gaia, Earth, and Daneel? Would they be so keen on giving
> up their Seldon Plan for this crazy idea? No, they'd preserve the integrity of psychohistory by
> destroying all non-human life. That means the robots, Solarians, the aliens from "Blind Alley",
> whatever, would be fair game for a Foundation gone mad with paranoia. The Mule came from Gaia, remember?
> And while Gaia is powerful enough to hold back Terminus, Daneel's base on the moon is easy pickings. All
> someone has to do is find it.
If I do write this, a major part of this book would be convincing the
Second Foundation, and the battles with them. (Mental battles that is)
Then after that is done, they would begin in secret. Also, I planned to
put more projections from Hari Seldon, explaining why this was set up as
it was. Please tell me more about the Mule coming from Gaia. I have not
heard of this. Either that, or I don't remember.
Thanks.
-- Jason C.
>
> --Mike Smith
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common.
Instead of altering their views to fit the facts, they alter the facts
to fit their views ... which can be very uncomfortable if you happen to
be one of the facts that needs altering.
-- Doctor Who, "Face of Evil"
MarkusMac
the entire Foundation series,
> about a political tactic that would save humanity in one thousand years, and
in the end it's revealed
> that not only will it not work, but it was never _supposed_ to work. If a
sequel to F&E could put the
> kibosh on Gaia, I wouldn't terribly mind.
well said. this was always my problem with the later Foundation books
(including the prequels). While I greatly admire the crafty ways in which IA
linked the Robot series to Foundation, Gaia just never worked for me as an
ideal Galaxia. Spiritually I couldn't agree more with it's POV on the
universe, but pragmatically, it turns humanity into too passive a creature for
my tastes. Bliss was an interesting character (in a 'flower child' kind of
way), but would I want to read about a society filled with people like her? I
don't think so. Of course Galaxia does open the door for what could've been a
fascinating contemplation by IA of free will vs. universal harmony in future
books. Who knows, maybe we would seen a whole PARADISE LOST type scenario
unfold in the newly established Galaxia? Perhaps not. I'll bet IA probably
would've come up something more original than that, but I guess it's all moot
at this point, especially since the NEW books all take place prior the original
Foundation story. Thanks for listening, forgive the digression.
Richard Schultz
: (including the prequels). While I greatly admire the crafty ways in which IA
: linked the Robot series to Foundation, Gaia just never worked for me as an
: ideal Galaxia. Spiritually I couldn't agree more with it's POV on the
: universe, but pragmatically, it turns humanity into too passive a creature for
: my tastes.
I have expressed my opinion before on this matter, but since it's germane,
I hope I'll be forgiven for butting in here. My take on this is that in
the original Foundation series as Asimov developed it during the 1940's,
he ended up with utopia being essentially a fascist dictatorship (one
could arguably claim he was thinking of a technocracy). The Second
Foundationers make quite clear (in the "--and Now You Don't" section)
that most societies are unstable, and that the goal of the Seldon Plan
is to produce an indefinitely stable society by breeding the majority
of humans into accepting the Ruling Class of Psychologists (with super
duper mental powers as well) who will rule humanity for its own good.
Of course, the Second Foundationers use less provocative language to
describe what they're up to.
I suspect that later on, Asimov either felt uncomfortable with the
political opinions he seemed to be supporting in the original trilogy,
or for dramatic purposes, decided to present as a preferred alternative
the opposite at the other extreme -- i.e. Communism ("from each according
to his abilities, to each according to his needs") taken to *its*
extreme -- everybody and everything is part of one huge body, where no
one demands (or even can demand) more than his fair share. You'll notice
that the description of the Mule in _Foundation's Edge_ is completely
inconsistent with his description in the original trilogy, for example.
In the original trilogy he makes explicit references to growing up as
a mutant (a *sterile* mutant, hence the name) in a Galaxy of "normals."
Now if we take the later view of what he was (an escapee from Gaia), there
is another dramatic possibility that Asimov seems to have overlooked,
one that would get rid of the necessity of "aliens from another galaxy"
as a plot hook. If we continue with the Galaxia-as-living-creature
analogy, we know that in real life, there are cases when not every cell
of the body is content to just do its job -- we call these cases "cancer,"
and they can be fatal. It is not clear that Galaxia would be able to
protect itself from such a cancer (the Gaians claimed that they didn't
take care of the Mule because the Second Foundation already had -- but
their having let him escape shows that they weren't as powerful as
they seemed to have thought). And such a society would not be stable.
Thus, Galaxia won't work either, and that might explain why in the end
that isn't what happened (or else we'd have no need for the Encyclopedia
Galactica).
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
Every man, whoever he may be, and however low he may have fallen,
requires. . . that respect be given to his dignity as a human being. . . .
God knows, treatment as a human being may transform into a man again one
in whom the image of God has long been eclipsed.
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 9 Jul 1998 11:30:32 GMT
> From: Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il>
> Reply-To: correct address in .sigfile
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
If he were born on Gaia, he would be considered a mutant when on other
worlds. You can't judge exactly what a Talaxian is compared to a Human if
you have never seen any Talaxians before. The Mule is so different, that
leaving his homeworld, Gaia, caused him to be "disconnected" to it as it
described, and possibly made him sterile. Or just incompatible. He may
very well not be sterile when back on Gaia. This is just idle speculation,
but there is another explanation, if you like.
The mule may have been TRAINED for this by Gaia itself, and in part by
Daneel for the purpose of intentionally derailing the timeline of the
Second Foundation. Daneel's projections may have indicated that the Seldon
Plan would have produced a Golan Trevis much much later than if the
continuity were broken in a certain way.
Also, I now believe Golan Trevis' answer would be: Both.
I'll work on my ideas on this a bit more, and then open them up for
critique. Feel free to show any inconsistancies with the books, but make
sure you separate opinions and actual factual conflicts. Thanks.
-- Jason C.
>
> Now if we take the later view of what he was (an escapee from Gaia), there
> is another dramatic possibility that Asimov seems to have overlooked,
> one that would get rid of the necessity of "aliens from another galaxy"
> as a plot hook. If we continue with the Galaxia-as-living-creature
> analogy, we know that in real life, there are cases when not every cell
> of the body is content to just do its job -- we call these cases "cancer,"
> and they can be fatal. It is not clear that Galaxia would be able to
> protect itself from such a cancer (the Gaians claimed that they didn't
> take care of the Mule because the Second Foundation already had -- but
> their having let him escape shows that they weren't as powerful as
> they seemed to have thought). And such a society would not be stable.
>
> Thus, Galaxia won't work either, and that might explain why in the end
> that isn't what happened (or else we'd have no need for the Encyclopedia
> Galactica).
>
>
> -----
> Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
> Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
> -----
> Every man, whoever he may be, and however low he may have fallen,
> requires. . . that respect be given to his dignity as a human being. . . .
> God knows, treatment as a human being may transform into a man again one
> in whom the image of God has long been eclipsed.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From an announcement of a congress of the International Ontopsychology
Association, in Rome]:
The Ontopsychological school, availing itself of new research criteria
and of a new telematic epistemology, maintains that social modes do not
spring from dialectics of territory or of class, or of consumer goods,
or of means of power, but rather from dynamic latencies capillarized in
millions of individuals in system functions which, once they have
reached the event maturation, burst forth in catastrophic phenomenology
engaging a suitable stereotype protagonist or duty marionette (general,
president, political party, etc.) to consummate the act of social
schizophrenia in mass genocide.
Jason M. Collins
> worlds. You can't judge exactly what a Talaxian is compared to a Human if
> you have never seen any Talaxians before. The Mule is so different, that
> leaving his homeworld, Gaia, caused him to be "disconnected" to it as it
> described, and possibly made him sterile. Or just incompatible. He may
> very well not be sterile when back on Gaia. This is just idle speculation,
> but there is another explanation, if you like.
>
> The mule may have been TRAINED for this by Gaia itself, and in part by
> Daneel for the purpose of intentionally derailing the timeline of the
> Second Foundation. Daneel's projections may have indicated that the Seldon
> Plan would have produced a Golan Trevis much much later than if the
> continuity were broken in a certain way.
>
> Also, I now believe Golan Trevis' answer would be: Both.
>
> I'll work on my ideas on this a bit more, and then open them up for
> critique. Feel free to show any inconsistancies with the books, but make
> sure you separate opinions and actual factual conflicts. Thanks.
>
> -- Jason C.
Here it is:
Golan Trevis sat quietly in his chair, pondering his decision. He imagined
what would be if his choice were the Second Foundation, pretty much the
same, and then he tried to imagine what would happen if he chose Gaia. He
found that he could not even conceive of a Galactic Gaia. He could not
think of how to begin, even if he did make this choice. He stopped for a
moment, and saw Gaia in his mind. He then saw Terminus. He made his
decision.
Decision: Both
Plan: Step 1: Bring Daneel and convince the Second Foundation
Step 2: Use the power of the Second Foundation to spread Gaia
Details below
By bringing a large number of members of the Second Foundation to a
planet, and an equally large group on Gaia, with Daneel on Gaia, and bring
a large animal or a tree, some sort of large being from Gaia to the other
planet. First, the SF'ers on the other planet use their mental powers to
tune into the being or creature brought from Gaia. Second, they tune into
that planet themselves, helping the organism reach out to the planet.
Third, use Daneel and the SF'ers on Gaia to re-establish the link between
the displaced creature of Gaia and Gaia. By establishing the connection
with Gaia, it creates a direct link between the two planets. Then the link
is kept up long enough to establish the Gaia consciousness planetwide.
Humanoid beings would be the last to adjust on any planet, but the rest of
the planet should take hold in 30 minutes. Once several planets have been
transformed, they can work together to speed up the process of bringing
the Gaia consciousness to every colonized planet in the Empire.
The intent here is to unite the galaxy in Gaia without taking away the
individuality of the humanoid races. Every sentient being (pre-Gaia, for
non-Gaia life forms, etc. are not considered sentient) will automatically
be transformed to Gaia with this technique, and every sentient being can
choose Gaia or not. The Second Foundation will not reveal their presence
with this, and this will in effect lighten the load of the Second
Foundation. All of Gaia will be given the 0th law, not just of robotics
anymore. The other laws will be irrelevant with Gaia. Explaination
follow two paragraphs below. All Second Foundation'ers will join with Gaia
as a means to give insight and perspective on mankind. Thusly, any person
who chooses to link with Gaia becomes Second Foundation. The only way to
remove oneself from Gaia results in a loss of everything learned and
experienced as part of Gaia, yet requires only a little mental effort.
This way the Second Foundation will no longer have to try to control
humanity for its survival, but can let it go as it pleases. With the
wisdom of the whole, the Second Foundation, aka Gaia, will allow
individuals the freedom to make their own mistakes, given that their
mistakes will not endanger all of humanity.
This is a hard concept to get, but I'll try to explain it fully anyways.
When a non-Gaia person kills a Gaia person, that person will be forgiven,
and the memories and experiences of that individual will be shared with
all of Gaia. In a way, that person's spirit will join Gaia directly. When
a non-Gaia person kills another non-Gaia, Gaia will reach out for the
spirit of that person, but it will be permitted for the non-Gaians to
fight amongst each other for any reason. This guarantees that all will
join Gaia, but it still gives humans their basic right to be assholes if
they want. By the way, anyone who joins Gaia, after seeing through so many
eyes, will never want to leave. They have the freedom to, but unless they
have a purpose for leaving, they usually won't.
And as for Fallom and Daneel, Bliss could perform the operation. The
cybornetic components that is Daneel would be powered by Fallom's
transducer lobes. An integrated neural/digital link would combine the
brains and minds of Daneel and Fallom as the left and right lobes of the
brain are connected. The most important effect is so that Daneel can
connect to Gaia through Fallom, and not be an outsider to the
transformational changes that would follow in the system. This robot has
already proved to be able to guide and alter the thoughts of humans, as
the Second Foundation does, so this should not be too far-fetched. Keep in
mind that the Gravatic ship that Golan Trevis uses is light-years past the
ships in StarTrek, technologically.
With Daneel finally seeing humanity from the inside, as well as the
completeness of Gaia, he will be able to call out to the robots in hiding,
and call them all to join. He would be their link to Gaia.
(Breif StarTrek reference. Sorry, it's neccessary.)
Just like the Borg in StarTrek (Voyager) can repair physiological and
cybornetic injuries with the power of the collective, this collective
would be far more powerful, and as soon as Daneel/Fallom joined it, their
integration would become smoother and it would no longer be in danger of
degredation, thereby giving Daneel and Fallom virtually an infinite
lifespan. This would also become true of any humanoid who joined Gaia. No
creature would die unless it chose to in order to be with Gaia directly in
spirit. The reason this wasn't neccessarily so with the original Gaia
(though it may have been, it didn't specify either way) is because with
the entire known Galaxy as Galaxia (the galactic Gaia), the collective is
far more powerful. Over eons, the fate of this galaxy would be the same as
the Mayans as they join Gaia directly, disappearing off the face of the
galaxy. Then life evolves again and the cycle repeats itself over
trillions of trillions of years.
Mairsil
>Matthew P Wiener (wee...@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu) wrote:
>
>he went to the other Three Kingdoms (in "Foundation," they are listed
>as Smyrna, Konom, and Daribow, but in "Second Foundation," "Loris" is
>mentioned as one of the Original Four Kingdoms), and pointed out to
I believe that Loris was a planet, not a sector/kingdom...
Mairsil
JohnnyPez9
>I'm not sure at which point Asimov got stuck, but I thought that it was
>Frederik Pohl who suggested that he continue with science-as-religion.
As I recall it, Asimov did say that Pohl helped him resolve a plot point from
the story, but it was actually Campbell who suggested the religion angle
(religion was one of Campbell's pet themes).
Johnny Pez
MarkusMac
>I suspect that later on, Asimov either felt uncomfortable with the
political opinions he seemed to be supporting in the original trilogy,
or for dramatic purposes, decided to present as a preferred alternative
the opposite at the other extreme -- i.e. Communism ("from each according
to his abilities, to each according to his needs") taken to *its*
extreme -- everybody and everything is part of one huge body, where no
one demands (or even can demand) more than his fair share. >
An excellent point. I'm glad I to hear someone commenting on Gaia as analogous
to Communism. It's always struck me in much the same way. And this certainly is
interesting in light of (and in contrast to) the politics of the two
Foundations. Unfortunately, this discussion leads me right back to my original
dilemma, which is being left to wonder where IA would have taken the series if
he's lived to writes a few more novels. Though, I can certainly imagine I'm not
alone in this.
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 10 Jul 1998 08:54:48 GMT
> From: MarkusMac <mark...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
Gaia - Communism?
What would happen if you combined the two, as I outlined in my postings?
Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have the ability to be assholes.
Isn't that what freedom is all about, the freedom to be assholes?
If no one was permitted to be an asshole, wouldn't that be an oppressive
regime? :) (aka Singapore. Peace, but no freedom)
Gaia guarantees peace.
The Second Foundation ATTEMPTS to assure peace, and is devoted to the
continuation of mankind.
Merging Gaia with the Second Foundation does not insure peace, but it does
ensure free choice while at the same time ensuring that Mankind will
thrive and continue to exist.
-- Jason C.
Kevin B. O'Brien
<jm...@comp.uark.edu> kindly said (on Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:36:48
-0500):
>Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
>
>Gaia - Communism?
>
>What would happen if you combined the two, as I outlined in my postings?
>
>
>Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have the ability to be assholes.
You are making a huge assumption here. I will illustrate with a true
story.
Many years ago, the dancer Isadora Duncan approached George Bernard
Shaw with a proposal that they have a baby together. She reasoned
that with a combination of her looks and his brain, the child was
sure to be a winner. Shaw retorted "But what if the child has *my*
looks and *your* brain?"
--
Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL
ko...@ix.netcom.com
The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies;
probably because generally they are the same people.
-- G.K. Chesterton
Help fight SPAM. Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org/
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 20:35:37 GMT
> From: "Kevin B. O'Brien" <ko...@ix.netcom.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> For the benefit of Mr. Kite, "Jason M. Collins"
> <jm...@comp.uark.edu> kindly said (on Fri, 10 Jul 1998 09:36:48
> -0500):
>
> >Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
> >
> >Gaia - Communism?
> >
> >What would happen if you combined the two, as I outlined in my postings?
> >
> >
> >Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have the ability to be assholes.
>
> You are making a huge assumption here. I will illustrate with a true
> story.
>
> Many years ago, the dancer Isadora Duncan approached George Bernard
> Shaw with a proposal that they have a baby together. She reasoned
> that with a combination of her looks and his brain, the child was
> sure to be a winner. Shaw retorted "But what if the child has *my*
> looks and *your* brain?"
Because I have a way of controlling how they are merged...
>
>
> --
> Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL
> ko...@ix.netcom.com
> The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies;
> probably because generally they are the same people.
> -- G.K. Chesterton
>
> Help fight SPAM. Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org/
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not after you.
James Coons
>(snip)
> Consider Daneel's plan. He wants to create a single collective human consciousness so humanity
> would be easier to protect. He's observing the Zeroth Law. Bully for him.
> However, in order to carry out this plan, he has to integrate the collective human consciousness
> with everything else in the galaxy. Using only human beings was too unstable. What's more, the
> plan is so gargantuan in scope that it will take centuries to execute (Daneel supported the
> Foundations to buy himself time.). On top of all that, it's a pretty big risk, and he may not
> survive long enough to carry this out.
(snip)
I'm believe that Gaia is the way. But perhaps I see Gaia differently. The
planets would all be Gaia when finished, and I have devised a way to do
this, but a person can choose to be connected or not. By giving them a
choice, it takes out the fear of losing one's identity. The main purpose
is to make all the planets of the Empire and beings and organisms other
than human into Gaia, for that is the basic state of nature. I'm assuming
a lot, you may say, and I'm presuming alot, as Daneel would be, but the
best way would be to create Gaia, and then each humanoid can choose to
link themselves or not at any time. You have to realize that the Second
Foundation has been manipulating people, making them do things not quite
intentioned by them. The whole series is a chess game. You can't just say
that Daneel broke a few of the rules, and say that the Second Foundation
doesn't have to follow them either. We are talking about social
engineering, and all this social engineering began with Hari Seldon, or so
it seems. (Cheddar Hummin had a bit to do with that :) What if Daneel gets
Fallom's permission? What if Fallom decides to do this? Why consider only
what could go wrong? My 50 cents worth. :) If anyone wants a copy of my
ideas about how to make Gaia work, email me at jm...@comp.uark.edu...-- Jason C.
"You will be assimilated into the Collective as a Borg". Of course,
those
that were assimilated were never givena choice.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Coons (aka JaCo), Christian, Radical Creationist,
Programmer, Inventor-At-Large, Family Historian
www.ameritech.net/users/jacoons/stiffler.htm (Genealogy)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan Pope
> Unfortunately, this discussion leads me right back to my original
> dilemma, which is being left to wonder where IA would have taken the series if
> he's lived to writes a few more novels. Though, I can certainly imagine I'm >
> not alone in this.
>
You're not. I've stayed out of this long enough. Back in January I posted
what I had found regarding what Asimov wrote concerning events after
"Foundation and Earth". What I said was roughly:
Asimov made it a practice to insert the roots of possible sequels into his
novels. Sometimes these clues are not consistent with each other so as to not
give away the actual plot that he did finally choose to make in further books.
He did open the door for different possibilities in the next book after
"Foundation and Earth". The problem is that Asimov never made the final
decision as to what plot the next book should have. However, he did mention
certain paths that he had in mind. The following is what I have found
concerning a sequel.
From chapter 159 of "I. Asimov":
"The ending of "Foundation and Earth had left me in a quandary. It is my
custom to try to leave one loose and untied matter at the end of a novel, in
the very likely case that I would want to continue the story."
then
"...in 'Foundation and Earth', the last paragraph strongly implied that there
were complications existing that could only be handled in another book, and I
had no idea how those complications could be handled. I still don't know,
though five years have passed since I finished the novel."
From the Author's Note to "Prelude to Foundation": "And then I can follow
"Foundation and Earth (14) with additional volumes -- as many as I like."
Finally, from the Introduction written by Isaac Asimov in 1989 for "Isaac
Asimov's Robot City - Robots and Aliens" book 1 "Changeling": Paragraph 13 of
the Introduction. "...FOUNDATION AND EARTH makes it conceivable that in the
sequel I may introduce aliens and that R. Daneel will have to deal with
them."
--
Stan Pope
hse...@gowebway.com
www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5378/psychohistory.html
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Stan Pope
> The Second
> Foundationers make quite clear (in the "--and Now You Don't" section)
> that most societies are unstable, and that the goal of the Seldon Plan
> is to produce an indefinitely stable society by breeding the majority
> of humans into accepting the Ruling Class of Psychologists (with super
> duper mental powers as well) who will rule humanity for its own good.
> Of course, the Second Foundationers use less provocative language to
> describe what they're up to.
I've only read an abridged version of "Second Foundation" in the last 5-6
years. But I didn't make that interpretation. And I still don't. Except for
the part about unstable societies. I don't remember getting that specifically
from that particular book, but it is stated clearly in the Foundation series.
The choice is always with the reader, but instead of a cynical view, I take a
more pragmatic view of the role of the Second Foundation.
A problem with the contention that humanity was supposed to "accept" the
"Ruling Class" of Psychologists, is that humanity was not supposed to even be
aware of the Psychologists. In fact the Second Foundation went to great
lengths and sacrificed much to make this so. As far as the Second
Foundationers being a "Ruling Class", Harla Branno uses this for her argument
given to Trevise. But then how do you define "Ruling Class". Living on
farms and in apartments (Gendibal)doesn't sound very 'elite' to me. During
the 1940's, and now, when we think of a ruling class, we are thinking of an
elite, wealthy class of people who are immersed in luxury. This was not the
case with the Second Foundationers, generally. If Asimov initially made that
analogy while he was writing the original stories, he tempered it when he did
focus on the Second Foundationers themselves, even in the original stories.
Not just in the 1980's.
I also make another interpretation which gives a different goal of the Seldon
Plan. For the purposes of credibility when analyzing psychohistory and the
Seldon Plan from our world (the real world), I maintain that the degree and
intensity of the influence and "tampering" (ruling) of the mentallics of the
Second Foundation were greatest during the beginning of the Seldon Plan, and
the need for outward influence and tampering was to decrease over time. At
the same time, the natural course of events that the science of psychohistory
predicted would occur, would occur "unassisted" to a greater and greater
degree as the actions of small numbers of individuals (early
Foundationers)became less important. Early on, psychohistory could not
predict the actions of those such as Hardin, Mallow, Wienis, or others whose
specific actions were critical. It had to be the Second Foundationers who
pulled the strings. Later on though, when the Foundation filled a major
portion of the Galaxy, psychohistory could more reliably predict what would
happen to them, and the Second Foundationers didn't have to act or "Rule" as
often. The greater the sucess of the Seldon Plan, the less "Power" the
Second Foundationers would have.
Consider the power of the Second Foundation over the Empire when the Seldon
Plan was first implimented. There was so much "social inertia", as Asimov put
it, that the path of the Empire could not be changed. The influence that the
Second Foundation had over the Empire was very little. The Foundation of the
Second Empire would also reach that point. In this scenario, the Second
Foundationers would, by design, have very little practical power. And their
influence would only be felt over the longggg term.
Richard Schultz
: The mule may have been TRAINED for this by Gaia itself, and in part by
: Daneel for the purpose of intentionally derailing the timeline of the
: Second Foundation. Daneel's projections may have indicated that the Seldon
: Plan would have produced a Golan Trevis much much later than if the
: continuity were broken in a certain way.
Well, in Foundation's Edge, the Gaians say that they have been acting to
keep the Galaxy in tune with the Seldon Plan (it was the lack of deviation
from the S.P. that had led to their detection in the first place). They
also said that they didn't go after the Mule once they saw that the
Second Foundation was taking care of him.
-----
Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
-----
"an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
StagsMTFC
>(Breif StarTrek reference. Sorry, it's neccessary.)
>
>Just like the Borg in StarTrek (Voyager) can repair physiological and
>cybornetic injuries with the power of the collective, this collective
>would be far more powerful, and as soon as Daneel/Fallom joined it, their
>integration would become smoother and it would no longer be in danger of
>degredation, thereby giving Daneel and Fallom virtually an infinite
>lifespan. This would also become true of any humanoid who joined Gaia. No
>creature would die unless it chose to in order to be with Gaia directly in
>spirit. The reason this wasn't neccessarily so with the original Gaia
>(though it may have been, it didn't specify either way) is because with
>the entire known Galaxy as Galaxia (the galactic Gaia), the collective is
>far more powerful. Over eons, the fate of this galaxy would be the same as
>the Mayans as they join Gaia directly, disappearing off the face of the
>galaxy. Then life evolves again and the cycle repeats itself over
>trillions of trillions of years.
>
Jason, the reason the Daneel/Fallom combination would have a 'virtually
infinite' lifesapan is not because of your vague idea of similarity with the
Borg, but because Galaxia as Asimov described it would lessen the load on
Daneel.
Explanation:
Daneel was ill because his positronic brain was not of sufficent capacity to
contain all his memories. He'd improved it and replaced it several times, but
there was nothing else physically possible to improve the positronic brain and
still fit in his head.
That's why he wanted to merge with another brain, to increase the storage
capacity.
Now, if he creates Galaxia, or even a small prototype, then he can store some
of his memories in the trees, animals, rocks, other huans... any part of
Galaxia.
Not because of something you just made up about being able to repair
themselves.
Interesting work you're doing, but you have to be so careful not to forget
anything from Asimov's books... a bloody hard task I reckon, but keep posting
your stuff.. you're in the right place to get friendly help with this NG.
Anton
StagsMTFC
>
>> The Second
>> Foundationers make quite clear (in the "--and Now You Don't" section)
>> that most societies are unstable, and that the goal of the Seldon Plan
>> is to produce an indefinitely stable society by breeding the majority
>> of humans into accepting the Ruling Class of Psychologists (with super
>> duper mental powers as well) who will rule humanity for its own good.
>> Of course, the Second Foundationers use less provocative language to
>> describe what they're up to.
>
>Stan Pope replied
>I've only read an abridged version of "Second Foundation" in the last 5-6
>years. But I didn't make that interpretation. And I still don't. Except
>for
>the part about unstable societies. I don't remember getting that
>specifically
>from that particular book, but it is stated clearly in the Foundation series.
>The choice is always with the reader, but instead of a cynical view, I take a
>more pragmatic view of the role of the Second Foundation.
>
>A problem with the contention that humanity was supposed to "accept" the
>"Ruling Class" of Psychologists, is that humanity was not supposed to even be
>aware of the Psychologists. In fact the Second Foundation went to great
>lengths and sacrificed much to make this so. As far as the Second
>Foundationers being a "Ruling Class", Harla Branno uses this for her argument
>given to Trevise. But then how do you define "Ruling Class". Living on
>farms and in apartments (Gendibal)doesn't sound very 'elite' to me. During
>the 1940's, and now, when we think of a ruling class, we are thinking of an
>elite, wealthy class of people who are immersed in luxury. This was not the
>case with the Second Foundationers, generally. If Asimov initially
made that
>analogy while he was writing the original stories, he tempered it when he did
>focus on the Second Foundationers themselves, even in the original stories.
>Not just in the 1980's.
Okay, I'm reading this, and I'm agreeing with you, but just a small point here:
SFers wre 'ruling class' because they were deciding the direction of the
Galactic society. Whether they live on farms or in big mansions is immaterial.
They weren't an 'old-boy network' ruling class (you slap my back, I'll slap
yours) but a ruling class ruling out of the honest belief that they were
creating something good for everybody.
Agreed entirely. And as we know, they continued to play a larger role...
basically because the mule threw the plan way off-course.
Anton
StagsMTFC
>Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
>
>Gaia - Communism?
>
>What would happen if you combined the two, as >I outlined in my postings?
>
>
>Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have >the ability to be assholes.
>
>Isn't that what freedom is all about, the freedom >to be assholes?
>
>If no one was permitted to be an asshole, >wouldn't that be an oppressive
>regime? :) (aka Singapore. Peace, but no >freedom)
>
>Gaia guarantees peace.
>
>The Second Foundation ATTEMPTS to assure >peace, and is devoted to the
>continuation of mankind.
>
>
>Merging Gaia with the Second Foundation does >not insure peace, but it does
>ensure free choice while at the same time >ensuring that Mankind will
>thrive and continue to exist.
>
Dictatorship + Communism = Utopia? There's a new one!
I can't see it Jason. On a political basis... how can any society with a
dictatorship = Utopia?
Surely Utopia has to have democracy in there? Preferably proper democracy, not
this pseudo-democracy crap we have in the West.
A democracy where freedom of choice, freedom of speech, access to all
knowledge, a reasoning approach to problems and no elitist ruling group of any
kind.. is the norm.
How the hell could it go wrong!
Anyway, back to the books.... thinking about what I just said... Gaia would be
the ideal starting point for Utopia.
You have that 'knowledge for all' right there.
You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
automatically.
All you do is have a constitution to not have a ruling class, and get on with
life.
Anton
StagsMTFC
------
Consider Daneel's plan. He wants to create a single collective human
consciousness so humanity
would be easier to protect. He's observing the Zeroth Law. Bully for him.
However, in order to carry out this plan, he has to integrate the collective
human consciousness
with everything else in the galaxy. Using only human beings was too unstable.
What's more, the
plan is so gargantuan in scope that it will take centuries to execute (Daneel
supported the
Foundations to buy himself time.). On top of all that, it's a pretty big risk,
and he may not
survive long enough to carry this out.
His solution: Find Golan Trevize, a man reputed to always make the right
decisions, and ask _him_
for permission to begin work. If Golan says yes, Daneel will believe that the
Galaxia project
can't miss, and it's the best thing to do. And just to make sure that he lives
long enough, he'll
merge himself with Fallom, a long-lived human.
Think about this. It makes sense to an extent, but Daneel's obviously grasping
at straws. TO
carry out this robot-created Zeroth law, he's willing to harm one human
(Fallom), and use Golan's
permission as justification. He's putting the Zeroth law ahead of the First,
but he's putting the
Second ahead of both of them. What? Is there a Negative First Law that lets a
robot search fo a
really lucky human for guidance?
******
No Mike, he didn't need Golan's justification. He played around with Trevize's
mind to make him have that ability.. Daneel was actually directing Trevize to
the decisions that took him eventually to Daneel, so that Daneel could have
Fallom.
He asked Trevize what he'd decided just out of intrigue.
Also, he's putting the Zeroth Law ahead of all. If, as you say, you think he's
putting the 2nd Law ahead of 1st (by 'harming' Fallom to keep himself alive)..
well, that's to obey Zeroth Law to help Humanity as a whole.. it takes
precedence over all other laws.
******
Moreover, if Daneel merges with Fallom, they'll become a being neither human
nor robot: a cyborg.
Humans can be predicted by psychohistory, robots by their Laws. A cyborg would
be Something Else.
For all we know, Daneel/Fallom will have a nervous breakdown and become a
genocidal maniac. And no
one could stop him.
Besides, by Daneel's own admission, he's sick. This implies that his present
planning might be
flawed, and his future intentions may become even worse. Does he even know
_how_ to merge with a
human?
******
Daneel's brain is out of storage capacity, which, he says will mean shut-down
soon... maybe it does hamper his reasoning, but he will have his old memories,
his old reasonings still, to assure him he's doing right.... if you see what I
mean.
******
Finally, Daneel's plan violates the Zeroth Law. If he incorporates humanity
into his Galaxia,
humanity would become no longer human. Yeah, they might be better off, but the
Zeroth Law doesn't
say anything about _improving_ humanity. It only says not to _harm_ humanity.
Since humanity is
defined by individuality and independence from the rest of the universe, Daneel
would be changing
humanity. Not allowed.
******
well.. Bliss is considered human isn't she?
So Galaxians would still be Human, which gets around some of your points
there... as for Zeroth Law not mentioning anything about improving humans, it
doesn't matter... if Daneel improves Humans by saving them from harm, then he's
obeyed Zeroth Law, right?
It doesn't matter how he obeys, just that he does.
******
So there's plenty of open ends to pick up on in another Foundation sequel.
******
Certainly is!!
Anton
******
Stan Pope
StagsMTFC wrote:
>
>Jason, the reason the Daneel/Fallom combination would have a 'virtually
>infinite' lifesapan is not because of your vague idea of similarity with the
>Borg, but because Galaxia as Asimov described it would lessen the load on
>Daneel.
>
Daneel would have to do more than merge with Fallom to have a 'virtually
infinite' lifespan. He explained this at the end of "F & E". While talking to
Trevise and Pelorat about merging his brain with a human one he said, "It
would NOT make me immortal, but it might enable me to live long enough
to establish Galaxia." Trevise went on to explain further to Bliss. He said,
"The child has transductive powers which Daneel will need, and she will
live for three or four centuries, which may be what is required for the
construction of Galaxia."
Not that Daneel couldn't do something else in three or four centuries to
extend his life further. But that's another story.
(snip)
>
>Now, if he creates Galaxia, or even a small prototype, then he can store some
>of his memories in the trees, animals, rocks, other huans... any part of
>Galaxia.
>
Oops. You forgot Daneel's words again. When Pelorat thought Daneel wanted to
merge with Bliss, Daneel said, "That would merge me with Gaia, and I must remain
independent of Gaia, as I have already explained." In his earlier explanation he told
Trevise, "... That freedom of action is necessary until Galaxia is well established."
The "until" leaves the door open for a future evolution of Daneel. But again, that would
be centuries away, and another story.
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 12 Jul 1998 08:49:16 GMT
> From: Richard Schultz <sch...@gefen.cc.biu.ac.il>
> Reply-To: correct address in .sigfile
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> Jason M. Collins (jm...@comp.uark.edu) wrote:
>
> : The mule may have been TRAINED for this by Gaia itself, and in part by
> : Daneel for the purpose of intentionally derailing the timeline of the
> : Second Foundation. Daneel's projections may have indicated that the Seldon
> : Plan would have produced a Golan Trevis much much later than if the
> : continuity were broken in a certain way.
>
> Well, in Foundation's Edge, the Gaians say that they have been acting to
> keep the Galaxy in tune with the Seldon Plan (it was the lack of deviation
> from the S.P. that had led to their detection in the first place). They
> also said that they didn't go after the Mule once they saw that the
> Second Foundation was taking care of him.
I know, but I'm also hinting that they may not have spoken complete
literal truth. I will have to read all the robot books and reread all the
foundation books, and then see if I can still make my plan work. -- Jason
C.
>
>
> -----
> Richard Schultz sch...@mail.biu.ac.il
> Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065
> Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250
> -----
> "an optimist is a guy/ that has never had/ much experience"
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are here:
***
***
*********
*******
*****
***
*
But you're not all there.
Jason M. Collins
THANKS! Remember, I haven't read the books in YEARS... I didn't remember
why Daneel wasn't doing so well. But I felt I had enough info to start
piecing the puzzle together. When I get the books again, then I will
really start clamping the ideas down. Thanks again! -- Jason C.
On 12 Jul 1998, StagsMTFC wrote:
> Date: 12 Jul 1998 22:21:17 GMT
> From: StagsMTFC <stag...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> >
> >(Breif StarTrek reference. Sorry, it's neccessary.)
> >
> >Just like the Borg in StarTrek (Voyager) can repair physiological and
> >cybornetic injuries with the power of the collective, this collective
> >would be far more powerful, and as soon as Daneel/Fallom joined it, their
> >integration would become smoother and it would no longer be in danger of
> >degredation, thereby giving Daneel and Fallom virtually an infinite
> >lifespan. This would also become true of any humanoid who joined Gaia. No
> >creature would die unless it chose to in order to be with Gaia directly in
> >spirit. The reason this wasn't neccessarily so with the original Gaia
> >(though it may have been, it didn't specify either way) is because with
> >the entire known Galaxy as Galaxia (the galactic Gaia), the collective is
> >far more powerful. Over eons, the fate of this galaxy would be the same as
> >the Mayans as they join Gaia directly, disappearing off the face of the
> >galaxy. Then life evolves again and the cycle repeats itself over
> >trillions of trillions of years.
> >
>
>
> Jason, the reason the Daneel/Fallom combination would have a 'virtually
> infinite' lifesapan is not because of your vague idea of similarity with the
> Borg, but because Galaxia as Asimov described it would lessen the load on
> Daneel.
>
> Explanation:
>
> Daneel was ill because his positronic brain was not of sufficent capacity to
> contain all his memories. He'd improved it and replaced it several times, but
> there was nothing else physically possible to improve the positronic brain and
> still fit in his head.
>
> That's why he wanted to merge with another brain, to increase the storage
> capacity.
>
> Now, if he creates Galaxia, or even a small prototype, then he can store some
> of his memories in the trees, animals, rocks, other huans... any part of
> Galaxia.
>
> Not because of something you just made up about being able to repair
> themselves.
>
> Interesting work you're doing, but you have to be so careful not to forget
> anything from Asimov's books... a bloody hard task I reckon, but keep posting
> your stuff.. you're in the right place to get friendly help with this NG.
>
> Anton
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 12 Jul 1998 22:52:39 GMT
> From: StagsMTFC <stag...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> Jason C wrote...
>
> >Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
> >
> >Gaia - Communism?
> >
> >What would happen if you combined the two, as >I outlined in my postings?
> >
> >
> >Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have >the ability to be assholes.
> >
> >Isn't that what freedom is all about, the freedom >to be assholes?
> >
> >If no one was permitted to be an asshole, >wouldn't that be an oppressive
> >regime? :) (aka Singapore. Peace, but no >freedom)
> >
> >Gaia guarantees peace.
> >
> >The Second Foundation ATTEMPTS to assure >peace, and is devoted to the
> >continuation of mankind.
> >
> >
> >Merging Gaia with the Second Foundation does >not insure peace, but it does
> >ensure free choice while at the same time >ensuring that Mankind will
> >thrive and continue to exist.
> >
>
Gaia IS utopia if it already exists. If Gaia evolves, it is still utopia.
But we don't have time to wait. But Implimenting Gaia could cause a
communistic effect due to the fact that we would be taking away people's
individual choice, their individuality itself. The Second Foundation is
not a dictatorship, but it's role in society is Dictorial. In order for
the Second Foundation to continue indefinitely, it might develop into one
as Mankind destabilizes.
By implimenting Gaia with the Second Foundation in the specific patters I
delineated in earlier posts, it would enable the transformation of the
entire galaxy, yet give every sentient being the CHOICE to be Gaia or to
not.
Once that is complete, you don't need a ruling class, a constitution, or
the Second Foundation anymore. For those who don't join Gaia, they don't
get to participate in Gaia. They can go form their own little parties and
be ignored by Gaia. Someone else made the comments about dictatorship and
communism. I was following up on that. -- Jason C.
> Dictatorship + Communism = Utopia? There's a new one!
>
> I can't see it Jason. On a political basis... how can any society with a
> dictatorship = Utopia?
>
> Surely Utopia has to have democracy in there? Preferably proper democracy, not
> this pseudo-democracy crap we have in the West.
>
> A democracy where freedom of choice, freedom of speech, access to all
> knowledge, a reasoning approach to problems and no elitist ruling group of any
> kind.. is the norm.
>
> How the hell could it go wrong!
>
> Anyway, back to the books.... thinking about what I just said... Gaia would be
> the ideal starting point for Utopia.
>
> You have that 'knowledge for all' right there.
> You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
>
> Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
> other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
>
> And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
>
> You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
> automatically.
>
> All you do is have a constitution to not have a ruling class, and get on with
> life.
>
>
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 22:09:39 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
> StagsMTFC wrote:
> >
> >Jason, the reason the Daneel/Fallom combination would have a 'virtually
> >infinite' lifesapan is not because of your vague idea of similarity with the
> >Borg, but because Galaxia as Asimov described it would lessen the load on
> >Daneel.
> >
>
> Daneel would have to do more than merge with Fallom to have a 'virtually
> infinite' lifespan. He explained this at the end of "F & E". While talking to
> Trevise and Pelorat about merging his brain with a human one he said, "It
> would NOT make me immortal, but it might enable me to live long enough
> to establish Galaxia." Trevise went on to explain further to Bliss. He said,
> "The child has transductive powers which Daneel will need, and she will
> live for three or four centuries, which may be what is required for the
> construction of Galaxia."
>
> Not that Daneel couldn't do something else in three or four centuries to
> extend his life further. But that's another story.
>
> (snip)
> >
> >Now, if he creates Galaxia, or even a small prototype, then he can store some
> >of his memories in the trees, animals, rocks, other huans... any part of
> >Galaxia.
>
> >
>
> Oops. You forgot Daneel's words again. When Pelorat thought Daneel wanted to
> merge with Bliss, Daneel said, "That would merge me with Gaia, and I must remain
> independent of Gaia, as I have already explained." In his earlier explanation he told
> Trevise, "... That freedom of action is necessary until Galaxia is well established."
> The "until" leaves the door open for a future evolution of Daneel. But again, that would
> be centuries away, and another story.
Right, but when merged with Fallom, after establishing Gaia as Galaxia,
then Daneel, along will all other sentient beings, would have a choice.
-- Jason C.
>
> --
> Stan Pope
> hse...@gowebway.com
> www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5378/psychohistory.html
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Collins
Remember, I'm pulling a Golan Trevis myself, I'm trying to piece together
the puzzle without enough information. But, after getting all the books, I
will have enough. Please bear with any mistakes I make in the timeline.
Thank you for your help and support. -- Jason C.
David Howdon
: Jason C wrote...
: >Second Foundation - Dictatorship?
: >
: >Gaia - Communism?
: >
: >What would happen if you combined the two, as >I outlined in my postings?
: >
: >
: >Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have >the ability to be assholes.
: >
: >Isn't that what freedom is all about, the freedom >to be assholes?
: >
: >If no one was permitted to be an asshole, >wouldn't that be an oppressive
: >regime? :) (aka Singapore. Peace, but no >freedom)
: >
: >Gaia guarantees peace.
: >
: >The Second Foundation ATTEMPTS to assure >peace, and is devoted to the
: >continuation of mankind.
: >
: >
: >Merging Gaia with the Second Foundation does >not insure peace, but it does
: >ensure free choice while at the same time >ensuring that Mankind will
: >thrive and continue to exist.
: >
: Dictatorship + Communism = Utopia? There's a new one!
: I can't see it Jason. On a political basis... how can any society with a
: dictatorship = Utopia?
: Surely Utopia has to have democracy in there?
Not convinced. Democracy is inefficient you have to find out what people want
etc. and they have to express preferences which wastes their time. Utopia would
not be democratic. (BTW I don't believe in the possibilty of Utopia anyway,
certainly not of a human Utopia.)
:Preferably proper democracy, not
: this pseudo-democracy crap we have in the West.
'Proper' democracy cannot exist (at least anything based on voting cannot).
If you are interested look for details of something called Arrows impossibility
theorem.
: A democracy where freedom of choice, freedom of speech, access to all
: knowledge, a reasoning approach to problems and no elitist ruling group of any
: kind.. is the norm.
: How the hell could it go wrong!
Rational individual preferences in a full knowledge situation are not
sufficient to lead to a social prefernce system that is rational, non-
dictatorial and a few other things I can't recall off hand.
[Gaia]
: You have that 'knowledge for all' right there.
: You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
: Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
: other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
: And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
: You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
: automatically.
: All you do is have a constitution to not have a ruling class, and get on with
: life.
What if I want to do something an my doing so excludes you from doing so. How
do we determine who gets to take the action. I suppose if you allow Gaia to
actually measure happiness (in utils) then we could do some sort of
utilitarian maximisation but I find this idea philisophically unpleasant.
Perhaps in the cotext of Gaia it is OK though.
--
--
Dave Howdon
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 13 Jul 1998 14:02:34 GMT
> From: David Howdon <corp...@sable.ox.ac.uk>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
How could my doing something affect your doing something? Those connected
to Gaia all have one mind. There is no "mine" or "yours" and therefore no
debate between "my action" or "your action". It is one mind. No
separation. If you decided not to join Gaia, then you can do whatever the
hell you want. :) -- Jason C.
>
>
> --
> --
> Dave Howdon
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors and
miss
-- Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"
StagsMTFC
with comments on what I wrote, about what Jason wrote.. :) etc..
: Dictatorship + Communism = Utopia? There's a new one!
: I can't see it Jason. On a political basis... how can any society with a
: dictatorship = Utopia?
: Surely Utopia has to have democracy in there?
Not convinced. Democracy is inefficient you have to find out what people want
etc. and they have to express preferences which wastes their time. Utopia would
not be democratic. (BTW I don't believe in the possibilty of Utopia anyway,
certainly not of a human Utopia.)
*******
What I'm thinking of here David is the medium we are using right now. First,
everyone has access to all knowledge (assuming you create this environment and
everyone DOES have acces to it).
Then everyone can participate in discussion about a decision. Then, maybe (but
I'm thinking off the top of my head here), you know how everyone's internet
doings can be tracked... after people have read a certain amount and
participated in a cetain amount of discussion, they are allowed to basically
set a marker saying "I have enough to go on to come to a decision".
When say, 70% (or whatever figure, really, but large enough to get a vote on)
have set this marker, a deadline is given for a vote.
Then, in 2 weeks (again, pick a figure, but I'm just illustrating) the vote
takes place with those who have enough information to make a sound decision.
The vote is then carried.
Everyone can participate, and there's no ruling class.
Admittedly it's also a mite dangerous... but early schooling is the traditional
method of making the majority 'fit in' with societal norms if you want to
retain some control still....
******
:Preferably proper democracy, not
: this pseudo-democracy crap we have in the West.
'Proper' democracy cannot exist (at least anything based on voting cannot).
If you are interested look for details of something called Arrows impossibility
theorem.
******
I'll look it up... though I acknowledge that this would never lead to 'Utopia'.
It's just the closest to it, and also the fairest system I can think of at the
moment.
******
: A democracy where freedom of choice, freedom of speech, access to all
: knowledge, a reasoning approach to problems and no elitist ruling group of
any
: kind.. is the norm.
: How the hell could it go wrong!
Rational individual preferences in a full knowledge situation are not
sufficient to lead to a social prefernce system that is rational, non-
dictatorial and a few other things I can't recall off hand.
*****
well, you make sure you don't have a ruling class, as in my explanation above.
Also the reason I go on about only letting those vote who have discussed and
read up on the voting subject is to keep some sense of rationality in there.
You may go further and say that people have to have discussed all the main
opposing arguments, too, to get a better perspective.
I also realise there's a time issue here, and some decisions could go on
forever with my system.
In cases where quick decisions ar needed, a date is set for the vote, and only
those that get to voting stage at that time are allowed to vote.
Hopefully everyone has the time to participate, otherwise you have a ruling
class of people who have lots of leisure time.
******
[Gaia]
: You have that 'knowledge for all' right there.
: You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
: Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
: other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
: And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
: You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
: automatically.
: All you do is have a constitution to not have a ruling class, and get on with
: life.
What if I want to do something an my doing so excludes you from doing so. How
do we determine who gets to take the action. I suppose if you allow Gaia to
actually measure happiness (in utils) then we could do some sort of
utilitarian maximisation but I find this idea philisophically unpleasant.
Perhaps in the cotext of Gaia it is OK though.
*****
Yes, that's what I'm thinking in the Gaia situation, you pick the best person
for the job.
I have a feeling you'll find my thoughts on my Techno-democracy philosophically
unpleasant, too!
But what else do you do to get to a fair democracy?
Anton
Stan Pope
StagsMTFC wrote:
>No Mike, he didn't need Golan's justification. He played around with Trevize's
>mind to make him have that ability.. Daneel was actually directing Trevize to
>the decisions that took him eventually to Daneel, so that Daneel could have
>Fallom.
>
Whoa there. Neither Daneel nor Gaia tampered with Golan's mind. This is covered
in "Foundation's Edge". If Gaia, or ultimately Daneel, could bring themselves to
tamper with Golan's mind in order to have him make a choice in their favor, then
there would have been no need to have him make the choice in the first place. His
mind, as was explained explicitly in both books I think, remained free of direct
influence. Daneel did "help" the Trevise group along on their journey, but not by
tampering with Trevise.
>He asked Trevize what he'd decided just out of intrigue.
Daneel had intrigue?
Stan Pope
Jason M. Collins wrote:
>
>
>Remember, I'm pulling a Golan Trevis myself, I'm trying to piece together
>the puzzle without enough information. But, after getting all the books, I
>will have enough. Please bear with any mistakes I make in the timeline.
>Thank you for your help and support. -- Jason C.
>
It's good that you are exploring different possibilities. Contemplating what would
work and what would be consistent and not consistent is good enough mental
entertainment for me. Keep on coming up with ideas. They are interesting.
Stan Pope
Jason M. Collins wrote:
>> When Pelorat thought Daneel wanted to
>> merge with Bliss, Daneel said, "That would merge me with Gaia, and I must remain
>> independent of Gaia, as I have already explained." In his earlier explanation he told
>> Trevise, "... That freedom of action is necessary until Galaxia is well established."
>> The "until" leaves the door open for a future evolution of Daneel. But again, that would
>> be centuries away, and another story.
>
>
>Right, but when merged with Fallom, after establishing Gaia as Galaxia,
>then Daneel, along will all other sentient beings, would have a choice.
>
You see it too then, don't you? Once Galaxia is strong enough to no longer need Daneel,
what will Daneel do? He will have to decide. Would he allow himself to die? Or would he
decide that humanity, now with a concrete definition, might be better off if he joined with
it, or became truly immortal? For my own amusement, I outlined this scenario once.
Stan Pope
Richard Schultz wrote:
>You'll notice
>that the description of the Mule in _Foundation's Edge_ is completely
>inconsistent with his description in the original trilogy, for example.
>In the original trilogy he makes explicit references to growing up as
>a mutant (a *sterile* mutant, hence the name) in a Galaxy of "normals."
>
>Now if we take the later view of what he was (an escapee from Gaia),
There is a short passage in "Foundation and Earth" that gives a glimmer
of hope for an explanation that is consistent with both descriptions. While
talking to Trevise, Daneel said, "... it is only in this last century that Gaia
was FULLY established ..."
So the Mule existed BEFORE Gaia was fully established. From this, one
could deduce that the Mule existed before Gaia was completely stable. How
about if it wasn't the Mule that escaped from Gaia, but was his parents, or his
mother. As a human who doesn't want her child to be part of Gaia, the Mule's
mother escapes to Sayshell. When she gives birth to the Mule, the loss of
such a large portion of Gaia, plus her physical separation from the planet Gaia
kills her. The Mule is then raised by foster parents as a queer child. He has
strange mental abilities and is labeled a mutant by doctors and psychologists.
Which he may have actually been in relation to Gaia because of his remote
birth. Only after he is an adult does he sense Gaia and he realizes that he
must have come from there, and that he must never return. Other renegades,
who were less harmful, could have been one of the problems that Daneel had
with establishing Gaia.
>there
>is another dramatic possibility that Asimov seems to have overlooked,
>one that would get rid of the necessity of "aliens from another galaxy"
>as a plot hook. If we continue with the Galaxia-as-living-creature
>analogy, we know that in real life, there are cases when not every cell
>of the body is content to just do its job -- we call these cases "cancer,"
>and they can be fatal. It is not clear that Galaxia would be able to
>protect itself from such a cancer
Bliss talked about this when Pelorat was concerned about her getting sick.
Gaia was able to protect itself from viruses, germs, and bacteria that were
otherwise harmful.
However, in "Foundation's Edge" Gendibal (I think) did say that Galaxia
would introduce new problems that Gaia hadn't thought of. "Aberrations"
such as the Mule could not be ruled out and certainly would not be
inconsistent with what has already been written. So on a large scale, the
potentials abound for obstacles.
> (the Gaians claimed that they didn't
>take care of the Mule because the Second Foundation already had -- but
>their having let him escape shows that they weren't as powerful as
>they seemed to have thought). And such a society would not be stable.
>
I pointed out above how according to Daneel Gaia was not at full strength,
was likely not stable, and was definitely not fully established at the time of
the Mule. But it did improve, and as Galaxia is formed, its strength would
increase.
>Thus, Galaxia won't work either, and that might explain why in the end
>that isn't what happened (or else we'd have no need for the Encyclopedia
>Galactica).
Daneel implied that Galaxia wouldn't be formed for many centuries. During
this time the Seldon Plan would continue (according to Trevise) and the
Foundation would prosper. Galaxia could very easily come into existence
AFTER the Second Empire has begun.
Stan Pope
StagsMTFC wrote:
>>Consider the power of the Second Foundation over the Empire when the Seldon
>>Plan was first implimented. There was so much "social inertia", as Asimov
>>put
>>it, that the path of the Empire could not be changed. The influence that the
>>Second Foundation had over the Empire was very little. The Foundation of the
>>Second Empire would also reach that point. In this scenario, the Second
>>Foundationers would, by design, have very little practical power. And their
>>influence would only be felt over the longggg term.
>>
>
>Agreed entirely. And as we know, they continued to play a larger role...
>basically because the mule threw the plan way off-course.
>
Correct, the Mule was not covered by the laws of psychohistory, no more than aliens
would be, and the Second Foundation was forced to become active. But after that, by
the time of Speaker Shandes and Speaker Gendibal, there had been generations of
PASSIVE Speakers. And of course this means that the Second Foundation itself had
become passive. If the trend had continued, by another 500 years, with the Seldon
Plan working perfectly, the Second Foundation would have become nothing more than
caretakers and watchers (for the "Highlander" fans).
Jason M. Collins
> Date: 13 Jul 1998 22:17:15 GMT
> From: StagsMTFC <stag...@aol.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> David Hownden wrote....
>
> with comments on what I wrote, about what Jason wrote.. :) etc..
>
> : Dictatorship + Communism = Utopia? There's a new one!
>
> : I can't see it Jason. On a political basis... how can any society with a
> : dictatorship = Utopia?
>
> : Surely Utopia has to have democracy in there?
No, Utopia does not HAVE to have democracy in it anywhere. It just has to
have cooperation. Did you not see the post comparing Gaia to Communism? I
didn't come up with those analogies. But if Gaia were formed on each of
the planets, and each sentient humanoid being chose whether to be apart of
Gaia or not, then you wouldn't need democracy or communism or any
government. The ones who didn't join could do anything they want, go form
their own little thing. -- Jason C.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite
of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
-- Bohr
Jason M. Collins
Golan Trevise (spelling? Trevis? I've seen 3 spellings on this post) was
supposedly a product of natural evolution of Humanity. Though I did
earlier conceptualize that the Mule could have disrupted the timeline
solely for speeding up the timeline in which a Golan Trevis would be born.
But this is idle conjecture. -- Jason C.
On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Stan Pope wrote:
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:30:20 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
> --
> Stan Pope
> hse...@gowebway.com
> www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5378/psychohistory.html
>
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:49:36 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
> Jason M. Collins wrote:
> >
> >
> >Remember, I'm pulling a Golan Trevis myself, I'm trying to piece together
> >the puzzle without enough information. But, after getting all the books, I
> >will have enough. Please bear with any mistakes I make in the timeline.
> >Thank you for your help and support. -- Jason C.
> >
>
>
> It's good that you are exploring different possibilities. Contemplating what would
> work and what would be consistent and not consistent is good enough mental
> entertainment for me. Keep on coming up with ideas. They are interesting.
Thanks. I will. :)
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 23:12:34 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
> Jason M. Collins wrote:
>
> >> When Pelorat thought Daneel wanted to
> >> merge with Bliss, Daneel said, "That would merge me with Gaia, and I must remain
> >> independent of Gaia, as I have already explained." In his earlier explanation he told
> >> Trevise, "... That freedom of action is necessary until Galaxia is well established."
> >> The "until" leaves the door open for a future evolution of Daneel. But again, that would
> >> be centuries away, and another story.
> >
> >
> >Right, but when merged with Fallom, after establishing Gaia as Galaxia,
> >then Daneel, along will all other sentient beings, would have a choice.
> >
>
>
> You see it too then, don't you? Once Galaxia is strong enough to no longer need Daneel,
> what will Daneel do? He will have to decide. Would he allow himself to die? Or would he
> decide that humanity, now with a concrete definition, might be better off if he joined with
> it, or became truly immortal? For my own amusement, I outlined this scenario once.
Why would Galaxia no longer need Daneel? There would still be the Rebels,
those who didn't join Gaia because they feared losing their individuality,
the other Robots, whom Daneel would attempt to bring to Gaia, and then the
alien races I'm sure they would encounter. :) Besides, when Daneel is a
PART OF GAIA, then he, specifically, doesn't care about HIS mission of HIS
purpose. Gaia has only one mind. And with Daneel joined with that mind,
with Fallom, he would finally see the big picture, and no longer need the
laws of Robotics, because then they will be written in his heart.
-- Jason C.
Jason M. Collins
Very good stuff. Great information. I am, however, going to attempt to
speed up the timeline. :) Golan Trevis realizes that the original plan for
Gaia and Galaxia would fail, and that the Second Foundation would
eventually crumble. So he decides both, and a special synthesis of the two
makes them both stable, and able to impliment now. But that's just my
ideas. -- Jason C.
On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Stan Pope wrote:
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:27:30 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 00:43:21 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
Good points. -- Jason C.
Jay Random
>
> No, Utopia does not HAVE to have democracy in it anywhere. It just has to
> have cooperation. Did you not see the post comparing Gaia to Communism? I
> didn't come up with those analogies. But if Gaia were formed on each of
> the planets, and each sentient humanoid being chose whether to be apart of
> Gaia or not, then you wouldn't need democracy or communism or any
> government. The ones who didn't join could do anything they want, go form
> their own little thing. -- Jason C.
Go _where_? By the time Galaxia is formed, even the black holes
(according to, IIRC, Bliss) are in on the act. There is literally
NOWHERE for the free individual to exist.
Incidentally, every human born _after_ the establishment of Gaia on a
given planet _would_ be part of Gaia, & no choice in the matter -- as
the very atoms that constituted his body would be part of Gaia. Some
choice.
I hated F&E, btw. It did fundamental violence to _both_ Asimov's major
storylines, Foundation & Robot alike. Here we have Daneel, casually
destroying humanity (by changing it into something completely different,
a gigantic hive-mind), ostensibly in the name of his Zeroth Law; over
_there_ we have Gaia/Galaxia, quietly usurping the role of the Seldon
Plan, tossing both Foundations (& that famous 116th Edition of the
_Encyclopaedia Galactica_) into the rubbish-bin of alternate history. Of
course Asimov was never able to write a sequel to F&E; he had killed off
all the fundamental ideas about humanity & society upon which all the
previous books depended. It was a dead end; there was simply nowhere
else to go.
--J. Random Gaiaphobe, D.G.F.V.
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 18:35:13 GMT
> From: Jay Random <jra...@shaw.wave.ca>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> Jason M. Collins wrote:
> >
> > No, Utopia does not HAVE to have democracy in it anywhere. It just has to
> > have cooperation. Did you not see the post comparing Gaia to Communism? I
> > didn't come up with those analogies. But if Gaia were formed on each of
> > the planets, and each sentient humanoid being chose whether to be apart of
> > Gaia or not, then you wouldn't need democracy or communism or any
> > government. The ones who didn't join could do anything they want, go form
> > their own little thing. -- Jason C.
>
> Go _where_? By the time Galaxia is formed, even the black holes
> (according to, IIRC, Bliss) are in on the act. There is literally
> NOWHERE for the free individual to exist.
I disagree. With this new plan for Galaxia, the Second Foundation could
create Galaxia in as little as 5 years with the help of Daneel and Gaia.
And every sentient being when born could "remove" themselves from Gaia. No
one born in Gaia would want to, but they could anyways. And non-gaia
humanoids could live on Gaia planets, they would simply have to shield
their mind lightly, or colonize new worlds in this galaxy.
I loved ALL of the Foundation books. I don't expect the writer's view
point to remain static. I'm enjoying having the chance to create an ending
out of this. -- Jason C.
>
> Incidentally, every human born _after_ the establishment of Gaia on a
> given planet _would_ be part of Gaia, & no choice in the matter -- as
> the very atoms that constituted his body would be part of Gaia. Some
> choice.
>
> I hated F&E, btw. It did fundamental violence to _both_ Asimov's major
> storylines, Foundation & Robot alike. Here we have Daneel, casually
> destroying humanity (by changing it into something completely different,
> a gigantic hive-mind), ostensibly in the name of his Zeroth Law; over
> _there_ we have Gaia/Galaxia, quietly usurping the role of the Seldon
> Plan, tossing both Foundations (& that famous 116th Edition of the
> _Encyclopaedia Galactica_) into the rubbish-bin of alternate history. Of
> course Asimov was never able to write a sequel to F&E; he had killed off
> all the fundamental ideas about humanity & society upon which all the
> previous books depended. It was a dead end; there was simply nowhere
> else to go.
>
>
> --J. Random Gaiaphobe, D.G.F.V.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God made the Idiot for practice, and then He made the School Board
-- Mark Twain
David Howdon
: *******
: What I'm thinking of here David is the medium we are using right now. First,
: everyone has access to all knowledge (assuming you create this environment and
: everyone DOES have acces to it).
: Then everyone can participate in discussion about a decision. Then, maybe (but
: I'm thinking off the top of my head here), you know how everyone's internet
: doings can be tracked... after people have read a certain amount and
: participated in a cetain amount of discussion, they are allowed to basically
: set a marker saying "I have enough to go on to come to a decision".
: When say, 70% (or whatever figure, really, but large enough to get a vote on)
: have set this marker, a deadline is given for a vote.
: Then, in 2 weeks (again, pick a figure, but I'm just illustrating) the vote
: takes place with those who have enough information to make a sound decision.
: The vote is then carried.
By simple majority? STV? AV? Doesn't matter non of them induce a rational
social preference ordering, that is non-dictatorial, is not affected by the
existence of other (irrelevent) alternatives. This can be proved mathematicaly
(and I would happily give the proof here but it is both very long and would
require lots of notation which is difficult to achieve in an ASCII medium).
: Everyone can participate, and there's no ruling class.
It would probably be better than most of the systems we have now. But still
imperfect and so not utopian. Of course that is why I don't believe in
utopia's. (And before someone points out how stupid that actually sounds
yes I do know that utopia means no-place I'm just using it in its more common
form.
: ******
: :Preferably proper democracy, not
: : this pseudo-democracy crap we have in the West.
: 'Proper' democracy cannot exist (at least anything based on voting cannot).
: If you are interested look for details of something called Arrows impossibility
: theorem.
: ******
: I'll look it up... though I acknowledge that this would never lead to 'Utopia'.
: It's just the closest to it, and also the fairest system I can think of at the
: moment.
Fair enough I'd probably agree with you. BTW if you really want to look it
up it is included inter alia in 'Microeconomic Theory' by Mas-Collell, et al
(and lots of other places I'm sure). But the explaination and proof is
very hard going so I wouldn't particularly recommend it.
: What if I want to do something an my doing so excludes you from doing so. How
: do we determine who gets to take the action. I suppose if you allow Gaia to
: actually measure happiness (in utils) then we could do some sort of
: utilitarian maximisation but I find this idea philisophically unpleasant.
: Perhaps in the cotext of Gaia it is OK though.
: *****
: Yes, that's what I'm thinking in the Gaia situation, you pick the best person
: for the job.
The difficulty of Gaia is determining to what extent you have individuality.
If you allow that Gaia is one super-organism then it would work since in
effect it is merely individual preferences but this would not constitute a
utopia. If however Gaia has a meausre of individuality all the problems
associated with combining individual preferences remains.
: I have a feeling you'll find my thoughts on my Techno-democracy philosophically
: unpleasant, too!
Well yours is no worse than most other democratic systems in that sense. Most
democratic systems are based on some sort of utilitarian principal which
(although I tend to subscribe to a utilitarian viewpoint) is not really
that defensible.
Well this discussion has been entertaining and I'd like to continue it
unfortunately summer vacation starts soon and my college's server is
in a bad state so I probably won't be able to continue with it any more of
quite a while.
--
Dave Howdon
Silvas
<jm...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:
>> >Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have the ability to be assholes.
>>
>> You are making a huge assumption here. I will illustrate with a true
>> story.
>>
>> Many years ago, the dancer Isadora Duncan approached George Bernard
>> Shaw with a proposal that they have a baby together. She reasoned
>> that with a combination of her looks and his brain, the child was
>> sure to be a winner. Shaw retorted "But what if the child has *my*
>> looks and *your* brain?"
>
>Because I have a way of controlling how they are merged...
>
And too much time on your hands..... :o)
>----------------------
>Jason M. Collins
>Computer Lab Operator (Lab-op)
>Macintosh Software Specialist
>Computing Services
>University of Arkansas
>jm...@comp.uark.edu
>
>This email in no way represents the views or policies of
>Computing Services or the University of Arkansas.
Maybe Nolan could use some "Gaian" cooperation with the team this year
:o)
Go Hogs!
Silvas
______________________________________
No matter where you go, there you are.
______________________________________
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 02:02:30 GMT
> From: Silvas <sil...@cyber-wizard.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:13:06 -0500, "Jason M. Collins"
> <jm...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:
>
> >> >Utopia. Humanity would be safe, yet still have the ability to be assholes.
> >>
> >> You are making a huge assumption here. I will illustrate with a true
> >> story.
> >>
> >> Many years ago, the dancer Isadora Duncan approached George Bernard
> >> Shaw with a proposal that they have a baby together. She reasoned
> >> that with a combination of her looks and his brain, the child was
> >> sure to be a winner. Shaw retorted "But what if the child has *my*
> >> looks and *your* brain?"
> >
> >Because I have a way of controlling how they are merged...
> >
> And too much time on your hands..... :o)
Maybe :)
> >----------------------
> >Jason M. Collins
> >Computer Lab Operator (Lab-op)
> >Macintosh Software Specialist
> >Computing Services
> >University of Arkansas
> >jm...@comp.uark.edu
> >
> >This email in no way represents the views or policies of
> >Computing Services or the University of Arkansas.
> Maybe Nolan could use some "Gaian" cooperation with the team this year
> :o)
>
> Go Hogs!
Amen! I'll sick Cheddar Hummin on them. :)
>
>
> Silvas
>
> ______________________________________
> No matter where you go, there you are.
> ______________________________________
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(to "The Caissons Go Rolling Along")
Scratch the disks, dump the core, Shut it down, pull the plug
Roll the tapes across the floor, Give the core an extra tug
And the system is going to crash. And the system is going to crash.
Teletypes smashed to bits. Mem'ry cards, one and all,
Give the scopes some nasty hits Toss out halfway down the hall
And the system is going to crash. And the system is going to crash.
And we've also found Just flip one switch
When you turn the power down, And the lights will cease to
twitch
You turn the disk readers into trash. And the tape drives will crumble
in a flash.
Oh, it's so much fun, When the CPU
Now the CPU won't run Can print nothing out but "foo,"
And the system is going to crash. The system is going to crash.
----------------------
NOTICE: I do not accept unsolicited commercial e-mail.
Any such e-mail sent to me will be forwarded & reported to
the sender's ISP for abuse of internet e-mail.
Don't waste my time and your internet access.
StagsMTFC
Well this discussion has been entertaining and I'd like to continue it
unfortunately summer vacation starts soon and my college's server is
in a bad state so I probably won't be able to continue with it any more of
quite a while.
----
yeah, I don't normally indulge in these discussions, but it's been a good 'un
to get the brain going a little.
Anytime you want to throw some thoughts my way, e-mail me, stick them here,
whatever.
Later,
Anton
JohnnyPez9
>Go Hogs!
Sounds like Silvas is going a little hog-wild.
Johnny Pez
Wildstar
>
>the ideal starting point for Utopia.
>
>You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
>
>Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
>other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
>
>And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
>
>You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
>automatically.
>All you do is have a constitution to not have a ruling class, and get on with
>life.
>
>
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 07:17:11 GMT
> From: Wildstar <wild...@rvshop.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> >How the hell could it go wrong!
> >
> >Anyway, back to the books.... thinking about what I just said... Gaia would be
> >the ideal starting point for Utopia.
> >
> >You have that 'knowledge for all' right there.
> >You have an understanding of other people, other beings, the planet.
> >
> >Also every Gaian is automatically aware of the thoughts and actions of every
> >other Gaian, therefore how could you ever have crime?
> >
> >And this means that you don't need a ruling class to run the planet/Galaxy.
> >
> >You just.. live. The best solutions for everything are available to you
> >automatically.
> ewwwwwwwwwwww.....I'd rather die then live like that.
That can be arranged. Just joking. The trick to how I'd impliment Gaia is
that every sentient being could still choose to be separate from Gaia.
Check out Life with Gaia and see if you like it. If you don't, then
disconnect, and cause as much trouble as you want with the other
non-Gaians. Also, in Gaia, there are no secrets. But once you disconnect
from Gaia, all the memories and experiences you had that were not yours
fade away. This way, the small handful that never commit to Gaia cannot
possibly destroy it. This way humanity is ensured to continue, and gets a
chance to evolve while they're at it. Personally, I would love to live on
Gaia. But then again I'm a spiritualist as well as a scientist. :)
I just had a cool idea. The Second Foundation votes for implementing Gaia
with Golan Trevis' plan after some convincing from Daneel/Fallom. Then one
of the Second Foundation members forms a resistance, telling people about
Gaia, telling them only bad things about it, and gets an army together to
stop the Second Foundation from completing the mission.
I'll shut up now. :)
-- Jason C.
Vicki
<jm...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:
>The trick to how I'd impliment Gaia is
>that every sentient being could still choose to be separate from Gaia.
>Check out Life with Gaia and see if you like it. If you don't, then
>disconnect, and cause as much trouble as you want with the other
>non-Gaians.
Interesting. This has a Heinlein flavor to it--see "Coventry."
Regards,
Vicki
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:09:31 GMT
> From: Vicki <vnco...@hotmail.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
What do you think I'm reading at the moment? :) I'm also a huge Heinlein
freak. -- Jason C.
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A candidate is a person who gets money from the rich and votes from the
poor to protect them from each other.
----------------------
Check out my column on The Macintosh Opinion!
http://www.macopinion.com/
Stan Pope
Jay Random wrote:
>
>I hated F&E, btw. It did fundamental violence to _both_ Asimov's major
>storylines, Foundation & Robot alike.
How did you like "Foundation's Edge"? I thought it was the ending of
"Foundation's Edge" that destroyed psychohistory. Of course it was
"Foundation and Earth" that seemingly sealed its fate. I too have a
serious problem with this. However, as I have explained more than once
before, while psychohistory's fate is determined by the choice of Galaxia,
the fate of the Seldon Plan is not. Actually though, even this redeeming
fact is not enough - for me. PSYCHOHISTORY and what it represents is what
makes the whole Foundation Universe so intriguing. Wasn't it Palver himself
who said the Seldon Plan was neither complete nor correct?
So where does that leave the Galaxy after Trevise's trip to - you know where?
We can look at it in one of two ways. The first, and easiest way is to say oh
well, Asimov's done it now - he's thrown psychohistory out the window and he
has blown everything. Might as well start a new series because this one's over.
Or we can say, gee how's he going to get out of this one. How could Asimov
possibly restore the significance of psychohistory and the predictive powers that
it represents. Which after all is the appeal of the whole series.
"Obviously", the difficulty of the second choice is probably why Asimov never
continued the timeline. But one could argue that psychohistory was destroyed
by the Mule. An ingredient was included that was not included in the scope of
psychohistory. A variable was introduced that was not take into account in the
mathematics of psychohistory. But psychohistory, and the future of the Foundation
were eventually restored. It was tricky, but Asimov did it, and it was credible. In
light of the fundamental nature of the inclusion of Daneel, and the prospect of aliens,
what could conceivably restore psychohistory this time? If you think that the Foundation
Universe is beyond repair, then yes, Asimov destroyed, forever, the Galaxy. If you
think that with enough imagination and ingenuity the usefulness of psychohistory and
the power of the Second Foundation could be reestablished, then in your own mind, and
in everyone's minds, the Foundation story can continue. (I, for one, see the battle just
heating up -- and continuing.)
Btw, how did "Foundation and Earth" do violence to the Robot stories?
>Here we have Daneel, casually
>destroying humanity (by changing it into something completely different,
>a gigantic hive-mind), ostensibly in the name of his Zeroth Law;
Destroying "humanity"? That was the problem, wasn't it? How do you define
humanity? How do you make "humanity" a concrete object that can be either
destroyed or protected, as dictated by the Zeroeth Law? I know what you mean,
but it took two whole books to "casually" destroy humanity, as you describe it. Your
statement though, may hold the silver bullet that derails Galaxia. Do you have a better
definition for humanity, as an abject that can be protected from harm, than Daneel
had?
>over
>_there_ we have Gaia/Galaxia, quietly usurping the role of the Seldon
>Plan, tossing both Foundations (& that famous 116th Edition of the
>_Encyclopaedia Galactica_) into the rubbish-bin of alternate history.
The solution to the "116th Edition" problem has been solved before - rather simply.
> Of
>course Asimov was never able to write a sequel to F&E; he had killed off
>all the fundamental ideas about humanity & society upon which all the
>previous books depended. It was a dead end; there was simply nowhere
>else to go.
Realistic, but too pessimistic. But this is not real. In fiction there is NEVER a
dead end, and there is ALWAYS somewhere else to go.
Wildstar
>
>that every sentient being could still choose to be separate from Gaia.
>Check out Life with Gaia and see if you like it. If you don't, then
>disconnect, and cause as much trouble as you want with the other
>from Gaia, all the memories and experiences you had that were not yours
>fade away. This way, the small handful that never commit to Gaia cannot
>possibly destroy it. This way humanity is ensured to continue, and gets a
>chance to evolve while they're at it. Personally, I would love to live on
>Gaia. But then again I'm a spiritualist as well as a scientist. :)
>
property of humanity, individuality. I mean, what's the point in
living if you "know" everything. why talk, you know what the person's
gonna say. everyone's the same, cause they're all "gaia"
Silvas
WWWHhhhhhhoooooooooooooo! Pig Sooie!
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 01:53:29 GMT
> From: Wildstar <wild...@rvshop.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
> >> ewwwwwwwwwwww.....I'd rather die then live like that.
> >
> >That can be arranged. Just joking. The trick to how I'd impliment Gaia is
> >that every sentient being could still choose to be separate from Gaia.
> >Check out Life with Gaia and see if you like it. If you don't, then
> >disconnect, and cause as much trouble as you want with the other
> >non-Gaians. Also, in Gaia, there are no secrets. But once you disconnect
> >from Gaia, all the memories and experiences you had that were not yours
> >fade away. This way, the small handful that never commit to Gaia cannot
> >possibly destroy it. This way humanity is ensured to continue, and gets a
> >chance to evolve while they're at it. Personally, I would love to live on
> >Gaia. But then again I'm a spiritualist as well as a scientist. :)
> >
> yeah....but if you implement gaia, you take away a fundenmental
> property of humanity, individuality. I mean, what's the point in
> living if you "know" everything. why talk, you know what the person's
> gonna say. everyone's the same, cause they're all "gaia"
Gaia will be a choice every person will be able to make. Simply using the
broad, sweeing statement that all of humanity will lose individuality is
false under my plan, because each human will be able to choose for
themselves, gaia or not. Besides, individuality is not the nature of
mankind, but of separation. Choosing Gaia will not mean the loss of
freedom of choice. It will merely mean that you have a lot more
information to make the choice with. No one will be "conquered" or
"controlled" by Gaia. And no one will be forced into choosing Gaia. Read
James Redfield's The Celestine Prophesy. (And the sequal The Tenth
Insight.) Sure, I'm drawing from a lot of sources, but I truely believe
that humanity is moving towards a Gaia of sorts anyways. The answers to
the questions "What is best for mankind" and "What mankind wants" are
almost always different. I believe Gaia to be in the best interest of
mankind, partially because it does alter the nature of mankind. Perhaps
the nature of Mankind needs altering to stay alive. Terminator 2, "It's in
your nature to destroy yourselves". Again, I re-iterate that each human
could choose not to join with Gaia, and still exist on planets where Gaia
thrived. It doesn't matter if not a single human chose Gaia, the plan for
Galaxia would still work because the planets themselves would be looking
after mankind. And those who choose to join Gaia, merely choose to join
the Third Foundation... -- Jason C.
> >I just had a cool idea. The Second Foundation votes for implementing Gaia
> >with Golan Trevis' plan after some convincing from Daneel/Fallom. Then one
> >of the Second Foundation members forms a resistance, telling people about
> >Gaia, telling them only bad things about it, and gets an army together to
> >stop the Second Foundation from completing the mission.
> >
> >I'll shut up now. :)
> >
> >-- Jason C.
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching
train.
Jason M. Collins
In my attempt at writing a conclusion to F&E, it will show a new level of
psychohistory. In order to make it work, though, I'm gonna have to get
ahold of all the Foundation and Robot books. I'm going to attempt to show
Hari Seldon as being a bit more knowledgable than Cheddar Hummin thought.
But I don't know how to do this believeably yet without seeming to
downplay R. Daneel Olivaw. My ideas included:
How Hari Seldon did projections that the Second Foundation never saw,
including planting the idea of Gaia for Daneel to attempt to help create,
a projection for Gaia to see, and not Daneel, for the purposeful
development of the Mule, and after Golan Trevis makes his decision,
another projection of Hari Seldon appears before Golan and Daneel and
Fallom, letting them know that the plans of Gaia and the Second Foundation
would each lead to ruin eventually, but that the choice that Golan made,
both, was correct. And that Hari Seldon lays out the plan of how to
impliment Gaia with the Second Foundation.
The point would be that Hari knew the true solution, an altered version of
Galaxia would not be possible until Gaia has been developed fully, until
the Second Foundation is fully in place, until humanity is ready for the
choice, and until Golan Trevis is able to uncover the correct choice. So
all the events that took place in the previous books happened for the
specific reason of setting up the timeline to bring all of Humanity to the
crossroads of Galaxia at just the right time, and for Golan Trevis to
recognize it.
Please respond with any helpful information concerning making this work or
conflicts that would make this not work. I am highly committed to finding
a way to show this in a believable sense. -- Jason C.
On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Stan Pope wrote:
> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:17:17 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching
train.
----------------------
Check out my column on The Macintosh Opinion!
http://www.macopinion.com/
Stan Pope
Jason M. Collins wrote: ...
>On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Wildstar wrote:
>
>Gaia will be a choice every person will be able to make. Simply using the
>broad, sweeing statement that all of humanity will lose individuality is
>false under my plan, because each human will be able to choose for
>themselves, gaia or not.
This is not entirely constant with what Gaia and Daneel had to say. The
basis of the need to have Trevise make a decision in the first place was that
he was making the decision for "all of humanity". This was stated pretty
forcefully in "Foundation's Edge" and Foundation and Earth".
A variation of your plan may be to have Galaxia choose those humans to join
with it only those humans that it knows would want to choose to join. (point of
technicality: once Gaia expands beyond the planet Gaia, it is no longer Gaia,
it should be referred to as Galaxia, not Gaia).
...snip
>Again, I re-iterate that each human
>could choose not to join with Gaia, and still exist on planets where Gaia
>thrived. It doesn't matter if not a single human chose Gaia, the plan for
>Galaxia would still work because the planets themselves would be looking
>after mankind.
This concept would have to be reconciled with what Dom and Daneel both said
about the instability of an incomplete Gaia. You suggest that Galaxia could
form by incorporating first the inanimate matter, then non-human life, then human
life. Gaia formed in the opposite order. As explained by Dom, the power of
efficient memory, and of consciousness itself was not present except in the
smallest degree within the inanimate portions of Gaia.
>> >I just had a cool idea. The Second Foundation votes for implementing Gaia
>> >with Golan Trevis' plan after some convincing from Daneel/Fallom. Then one
>> >of the Second Foundation members forms a resistance, telling people about
>> >Gaia, telling them only bad things about it, and gets an army together to
>> >stop the Second Foundation from completing the mission.
Telling people? What people?... An army? Do you mean an army of mentallists, or an
army with physical weapons that are useless against mentallists?
Stan Pope
Jason M. Collins wrote: ...
>
>psychohistory. In order to make it work, though, I'm gonna have to get
>ahold of all the Foundation and Robot books. I'm going to attempt to show
>Hari Seldon as being a bit more knowledgable than Cheddar Hummin thought.
>But I don't know how to do this believeably yet without seeming to
>downplay R. Daneel Olivaw. My ideas included:
First re-read "Forward the Foundation" and consider the difficulty Seldon had
with forming psychohistory to the extent that he did.
>
>How Hari Seldon did projections that the Second Foundation never saw,
This is inconsistent with both "Foundation and Empire" and with "Foundation's
Edge". Wait, you're talking about the Crisis holograms, aren't you? But the
Crisis holograms were made for the First Foundation, not the Second. The
Second Foundation didn't need them. They had the Prime Radiant. And the
Crisis holograms were made to guide the First Foundation along the path
layed out by the equations in the Prime Radiant.
>including planting the idea of Gaia for Daneel to attempt to help create,
Daneel was working on Gaia long before Hari Seldon was born.
>a projection for Gaia to see, and not Daneel,
As Daneel said, he could be aware of anything that Gaia was aware of. Gaia
could not keep secrets from Daneel (well, Gaia didn't even know about Daneel).
>for the purposeful
>development of the Mule, and after Golan Trevis makes his decision,
>another projection of Hari Seldon appears before Golan and Daneel and
>Fallom,
This is transforming psychohistory to a science that is dealing with
individual humans. That can only be done with the active help of mentalics -
otherwise known as Second Foundationers. But the Second Foundation
wasn't even aware of the Mule until it was almost too late.
>letting them know that the plans of Gaia and the Second Foundation
>would each lead to ruin eventually, but that the choice that Golan made,
>both, was correct. And that Hari Seldon lays out the plan of how to
>implement Gaia with the Second Foundation.
>The point would be that Hari knew the true solution,
This is making Hari Seldon way to omniscient even for me. If you want to raise
a character to the level of a God. Daneel would be a better choice. You refer
again to Trevise's decision of BOTH Galaxia (not Gaia), AND the Second
Foundation. To me, this undermines the whole plot of "Foundation's Edge" and
"Foundation and Earth". Not that some kind of "Swiss Cheese" structure of a
version of Galaxia wouldn't be a good choice for the final outcome.
A possibility I envision is that at some point in time a "Crisis" emerges on the
Second Foundation as they collectively become "aware" of the emerging entity
that we know of as Galaxia. A mentalic "battle" of sorts ensues and after a
re-evaluation of the definition of "humanity", the stabilizing quality of the use of
the science of psychohistory, the threat of aliens, and the constraints and
requirements of the Zeroeth Law of Robotics, a compromise is finally reached.
>an altered version of
>Galaxia would not be possible until Gaia has been developed fully, until
>the Second Foundation is fully in place, until humanity is ready for the
>choice, and until Golan Trevis is able to uncover the correct choice. So
>all the events that took place in the previous books happened for the
>specific reason of setting up the timeline to bring all of Humanity to the
>crossroads of Galaxia at just the right time, and for Golan Trevis to
>recognize it.
Personally, I think that it would be better to change the direction of the plot,
rather than add another level of complexity to the ever deepening forces and
realities of the current one. I think Asimov almost went to far when he had
Daneel overseeing Gaia, which was usurping the role of the Second Foundation,
which was secretly controlling the First Foundation, which was destined to
rule the Galaxy. What is that, 5 layers. And you want to have Seldon guiding
Daneel? I don't know. Interesting, but would it really be credible?
Jason M. Collins
> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 22:20:05 -0400
> From: Stan Pope <hse...@gowebway.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
>
>
> Jason M. Collins wrote: ...
> >On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Wildstar wrote:
> >
>
>
> >Gaia will be a choice every person will be able to make. Simply using the
> >broad, sweeing statement that all of humanity will lose individuality is
> >false under my plan, because each human will be able to choose for
> >themselves, gaia or not.
>
> This is not entirely constant with what Gaia and Daneel had to say. The
> basis of the need to have Trevise make a decision in the first place was that
> he was making the decision for "all of humanity". This was stated pretty
> forcefully in "Foundation's Edge" and Foundation and Earth".
I know that. But in Imposing Galaxia on the galaxy, you take away people's
choice to be individuals by force. Isn't this oppressive? Isn't this
dictorial? I made that change on purpose, to allow for human choice.
>
> A variation of your plan may be to have Galaxia choose those humans to join
> with it only those humans that it knows would want to choose to join. (point of
> technicality: once Gaia expands beyond the planet Gaia, it is no longer Gaia,
> it should be referred to as Galaxia, not Gaia).
>
> ...snip
> >Again, I re-iterate that each human
> >could choose not to join with Gaia, and still exist on planets where Gaia
> >thrived. It doesn't matter if not a single human chose Gaia, the plan for
> >Galaxia would still work because the planets themselves would be looking
> >after mankind.
>
> This concept would have to be reconciled with what Dom and Daneel both said
> about the instability of an incomplete Gaia. You suggest that Galaxia could
> form by incorporating first the inanimate matter, then non-human life, then human
> life. Gaia formed in the opposite order. As explained by Dom, the power of
> efficient memory, and of consciousness itself was not present except in the
> smallest degree within the inanimate portions of Gaia.
Agreed. This is why it would take some powerful psionics and mentalics to
achieve this. I'm still toying with ideas here, and I have not been able
to obtain the books, so I will make mistakes in my ideas. Thanks for
helping. Yet I guess I see Gaia a little differently. With Gaia formed, it
should be possible to spread Gaia through the planets with the help of
Daneel and the Gaians (and maybe a few SF'ers, if the story goes that
route). Gaia would be weak at first. A Gaian would have to be on every
planet transformed. By the nature of Gaia, some people would become aware
of it, those with untapped mentalics abilities, and accidentilly or
purposefully tap into Galaxia, thus seeing what is going on and what the
movement is doing. After seeing this, their abilities will naturally
become untapped, and they will join Galaxia in the purpose of spreading
it. By this, the movement will begin to grow by itself. It would start out
small, but would wind up snowballing.
>
> >> >I just had a cool idea. The Second Foundation votes for implementing Gaia
> >> >with Golan Trevis' plan after some convincing from Daneel/Fallom. Then one
> >> >of the Second Foundation members forms a resistance, telling people about
> >> >Gaia, telling them only bad things about it, and gets an army together to
> >> >stop the Second Foundation from completing the mission.
>
>
> Telling people? What people?... An army? Do you mean an army of mentallists, or an
> army with physical weapons that are useless against mentallists?
I guess this message you read was not supposed to be posted to the list,
but I'll explain anyways. My two plans included:
1) Golan and Daneel/Fallom working alone with the Gaians to create Galaxia
2) Golan going to the council of the Second Foundation, and asking their
help.
If plan 1 is used, the Second Foundation would become aware of a growing
presence in the Galaxy, and move to stop it.
If plan 2 is used, some of the Second Foundation would be convinced of the
need for Galaxia, others would not, and there would be a great Schism.
Those that join the quest for Galaxia would help expidite it's creation,
while the others will start a mentalics and psionic war to attempt to stop
Galaxia.
Either way, there is going to be a major battle. If the entire Second
Foundation is united against Galaxia, they will probably fail. So I may
write it so Golan Trevis approaches the Second Foundation, bringing about
plan 2.
If that doesn't clear things up, email me. -- Jason C.
>
> --
> Stan Pope
> hse...@gowebway.com
> www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/5378/psychohistory.html
>
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining
and wants it back the minute it begins to rain.
-- Mark Twain
kin...@cbpu.com
<jm...@comp.uark.edu> wrote:
<On 10 Jul 1998, MarkusMac wrote:
<
<> Date: 10 Jul 1998 08:54:48 GMT
<> From: MarkusMac <mark...@aol.com>
<> Newsgroups: alt.books.isaac-asimov
<> Subject: Re: Ending of FOUNDATION AND EARTH
<>
<>
<> >I suspect that later on, Asimov either felt uncomfortable with the
<> political opinions he seemed to be supporting in the original trilogy,
<> or for dramatic purposes, decided to present as a preferred alternative
<> the opposite at the other extreme -- i.e. Communism ("from each
according
<> to his abilities, to each according to his needs") taken to *its*
<> extreme -- everybody and everything is part of one huge body, where no
<> one demands (or even can demand) more than his fair share. >
<
I read in one of IA's collectons of short stories an afterword. In it he
attended a lecture on some topic or other and had used for his source
material one of his short stories. Issac could resist the temptation and
asked why he had thought the thoughts he had on the story. And the lecturer
said it was obvious what the author (meaning Asimov) had meant. Issac then
said he had it on pretty good authority that that was not what the author
had in mind. The lecturer said "since when does the author know what a
story is about?" issac had to agree with him and thought it was a good
lesson. Writing a story isn't necessarily the key to understanding it.
PS all of this is based on my memorey and my own organic spell checker.
Ed Seiler
>material one of his short stories. Issac could resist the temptation and
>said it was obvious what the author (meaning Asimov) had meant. Issac then
>story is about?" issac had to agree with him and thought it was a good
>PS all of this is based on my memorey and my own organic spell checker.
Please program your organic spell checker to carefully read the title of
this newsgroup, and then to carefully read the first three lines quoted
above. The great thing about organic spell checkers is that they can learn
well enough so that certain mistakes aren't made in the first place.
--
Ed Seiler "Our remedies oft in ourselves do lie,
edse...@clark.net Which we ascribe to heaven"
-- Helena, "All's Well That Ends Well",
Wm. Shakespeare