"J.K. Rowling among the Inklings"
Troels Forchhammer
Inklings", [1] commenting some parallels Jason has noticed between
passages in Rowling's works and couple of passages in Williams'
novel, _War in Heaven_.
I have no idea whether Rowling knows Williams, or if this particular
idea may exist elsewhere (with a possible source of inspiration
common to the two) -- if anyone knows, I'm sure Jason would be
delighted to learn more.
What attracted my attention, however, was the statement that
But Rowling, like Sayers, is frequently described as an
“honorary Inkling”, or said to be following in the
tradition of the Inklings. The latter is certainly true.
Is Rowling really 'following in the tradition of the Inklings'? Just
because people say it, that doesn't make it true, of course. I was an
avid Rowling enthusiast for some years, but my enthusiasm began to
cool after the fifth book (_Harry Potter and the Order of the
Phoenix_) and since the last of the Potter books (_Harry Potter and
the Deathly Hallows_) it has been more or less dead, though I still
consider the third book in particular to be a very good (children's)
book. When I was following the news about Rowling, I saw many
laudatory claims about Rowling's writings that I, even then, found
questionable, but I haven't been following things for the last 4 - 5
years, and much may have happened in the meantime.
In this particular blog entry, Jason is invoking Charles Williams,
and I have to admit that besides Tolkien's work, I have read next to
nothing of the Inklings (the Narnia books in a Danish translation
targeted at children is, IIRC, all), so I am _not_ going to judge
whether the above statement is actually true; hence my bringing it up
here.
With respect to Tolkien, I can see some parallels in Rowling's works,
but not enough that I would say that she is following in the
tradition of Tolkien -- for that to have been true, there would, in
my opinion, have had to be a greater parallel in the ways the two
authors use and relate to their source material, but what about the
other Inklings?
Are there any particular Inkling(s) in whose tradition Rowling can be
said to follow more closely?
Is there a common denominator for the Inklings in which tradition
Rowling follows? And just to whet the appetite for discussion, I
would say that I am highly sceptical of the claims of Rowling's
Christianity as an inspiration for the books: while I can see much in
both Tolkien's and Lewis' work that relies on their Christian
_faith_, I see nothing of that sort in Rowling's work. There is
Christian culture and Christian ethics, but not specifically
Christian faith or spirituality (here I am more inclined to agree
with the views ostensibly supported the then Cardinal Ratzinger [2]).
Is it correct that Rowling is 'following in the tradition Inklings'?
And if so, in what way(s) is this correct?
[1] Jason Fisher, _Lingwë - Musings of a Fish_, "J.K. Rowling among
the Inklings", Friday, October 8, 2010
<http://lingwe.blogspot.com/2010/10/jk-rowling-among-inklings.html>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/2ctb2sl>
[2] See e.g.
<http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html> or
<http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/rita-skeeter-covers-the-vatican/>
X-posted: rec.arts.books.tolkien;
alt.fan.tolkien
alt.books.inklings
alt.fan.harry-potter
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
nothing.
- Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
Steve Hayes
<Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>Jason Fisher has produced a blog entry titled "J.K. Rowling among the
>Inklings", [1] commenting some parallels Jason has noticed between
>passages in Rowling's works and couple of passages in Williams'
>novel, _War in Heaven_.
>
>I have no idea whether Rowling knows Williams, or if this particular
>idea may exist elsewhere (with a possible source of inspiration
>common to the two) -- if anyone knows, I'm sure Jason would be
>delighted to learn more.
>
>What attracted my attention, however, was the statement that
> But Rowling, like Sayers, is frequently described as an
> ?onorary Inkling? or said to be following in the
> tradition of the Inklings. The latter is certainly true.
One of the reasons Sayers is sometimes described as an "honorary Inkling" is
that she was a fairly close friend of some of the Inklings, though she never
attended any of their gatherings. That would not, of course, apply to Rowling.
>
>Is Rowling really 'following in the tradition of the Inklings'? Just
>because people say it, that doesn't make it true, of course. I was an
>avid Rowling enthusiast for some years, but my enthusiasm began to
>cool after the fifth book (_Harry Potter and the Order of the
>Phoenix_) and since the last of the Potter books (_Harry Potter and
>the Deathly Hallows_) it has been more or less dead, though I still
>consider the third book in particular to be a very good (children's)
>book. When I was following the news about Rowling, I saw many
>laudatory claims about Rowling's writings that I, even then, found
>questionable, but I haven't been following things for the last 4 - 5
>years, and much may have happened in the meantime.
"Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix" is certainly the one I liked least
of the Harry Potter books, though I thought the series picked up a bit towards
the end. But I still liked the first three books best.
They have in common with the Narnia series and "The Hobbit" the genre of being
children's fantasy, but I don't think that is enough to make anyone an
honorary Inkling. The other Inklings didn't write children's fantasies, and
some of them didn't write anything at all.
The thing about the Harry Potter books is that they came after a dearth of
decent children's books. For a long time all you could get was R.L. Stein and
the "Goosebumps" series, which were mediocre, to say the least. And now you
have the "I'm a lovesick teenage vegeterian vampire" kind of thing which are
as bad as the "Goosebumps" lot, though my son, who works in a bookshop, says
they are now selling a lot less of those than of Harry Potter.
>In this particular blog entry, Jason is invoking Charles Williams,
>and I have to admit that besides Tolkien's work, I have read next to
>nothing of the Inklings (the Narnia books in a Danish translation
>targeted at children is, IIRC, all), so I am _not_ going to judge
>whether the above statement is actually true; hence my bringing it up
>here.
I've been meaning to read his blog post, but haven't yet. I see little
resemblance. Neil Gaiman's "American gods" and "Neverwhere" are a lot closer
to Charles Williams than the Harry Potter books are, but I'm not sure that
that would make him an honorary Inkling.
Over the past few years I've challenged Williams and other Inklings fans to
write books in the Charles Williams genre in NaNoWriMo (National Novel-Writing
Month), but there have been no takers.
--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
Dirk Thierbach
> What attracted my attention, however, was the statement that
> But Rowling, like Sayers, is frequently described as an
>
> Is Rowling really 'following in the tradition of the Inklings'?
I guess to answer this question one would first have to agree what
this "tradition" is in the first place.
In a very loose sense, the appeal of Harry Potter is the same as
LotR or Narnia -- a subcreated world, where this subcreation is used
to say something fundamental about human nature. But that does apply
to lots of SF and F.
In a more strict sense, there are less similarities.
> In this particular blog entry, Jason is invoking Charles Williams,
> [1] Jason Fisher, _Lingwë - Musings of a Fish_, "J.K. Rowling among
> the Inklings", Friday, October 8, 2010
> <http://lingwe.blogspot.com/2010/10/jk-rowling-among-inklings.html>
What he gets hung up on (an "unplottable" house) looks like a common
"gimmick": I can think of several SF/F works with "invisible" houses;
the Wandering Magic Shop is proabably an instance, of this, too; and I
wouldn't be surprised if there are fairy tales with a similar idea.
- Dirk
Clams Canino
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message
> They have in common with the Narnia series and "The Hobbit" the genre of
> being
> children's fantasy, but I don't think that is enough to make anyone an
> honorary Inkling. The other Inklings didn't write children's fantasies,
> and
> some of them didn't write anything at all.
I think that's the sticky point. This whole "tradition of the Inklings"
notion is quite vague and smells more of someone trying to sell an article
then anything else.
-W
Steve Hayes
wrote:
Sell an article?
To whom?
Hari Seldon
"Troels Forchhammer" <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> schreef in bericht
news:Xns9E0E45AD...@130.133.4.11...
> the Inklings", Friday, October 8, 2010
> <http://lingwe.blogspot.com/2010/10/jk-rowling-among-inklings.html>
> <http://preview.tinyurl.com/2ctb2sl>
>
> [2] See e.g.
> <http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html> or
> <http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/rita-skeeter-covers-the-vatican/>
>
>
> X-posted: rec.arts.books.tolkien;
> alt.fan.tolkien
> alt.books.inklings
> alt.fan.harry-potter
>
> --
> Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
> Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
> Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
>
> It is useless to meet revenge with revenge: it will heal
> nothing.
> - Frodo Baggins, /The Return of the King/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
There is one aspect that certainly applies 1:1 to the books of Rowling and
one member of the Inkling-club.
"Oh my God! Please! No more Elves!!!"
That thought came up regular while reading on Doby and all.
That said. Book 4 of Rowling was indeed the weakest of all - should have
been 240 pages instead of 500. On the other hand, kudos for Rowling
finishing the tale after book 4 and 5 and keeping up a high level of
quality. Compared to works of Herbert or Zelazny she actually managed to
stand and deliver which the Dune- or Amber-tale missed, imho. Even the
before unpublished or unfinished tales of Tolkien do prove - again imho -
why they were not published before. They just lack quality. The one serie
that stays strong that I can come up with is Vance's Demon Princes (but
that's SF).
On the Inkling club, imho Rowling didn't have a (deeper) allegory of
christianity that Tolkien and Lewis for instance, framed in their works.
Lewis wrote brilliant fairytale, Tolkien wrote brilliant mythological.
Rowling did a fine job on combingin these two writing the HP's. Let's hope
more of that quality will come.
I guess like most of you all, I love the lore in Tolkiens world - and HP had
less lore... Narnia had less lore than HP.
Weland
to some extent, I don't see the connection. The post skirts by, barely,
the fallacy of saying "A looks like Z, therefore A is Z".
I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is Lewis and
Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no surprise: she's
educated in the British system, read Classics, and is heavily influenced
by the Arthurian tradition and Chaucer as well as classical texts like
the Aeneid and the Odyssey. There's no question she's influenced by the
same texts as Lewis and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as
well as by T. H. White among other things. So sure, following at least
in part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
Weland
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 05:38:26 -0400, "Clams Canino"<cc-m...@earthdink.net>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Steve Hayes"<haye...@telkomsa.net> wrote in message
>>
>>> They have in common with the Narnia series and "The Hobbit" the genre of
>>> being
>>> children's fantasy, but I don't think that is enough to make anyone an
>>> honorary Inkling. The other Inklings didn't write children's fantasies,
>>> and
>>> some of them didn't write anything at all.
>>
>> I think that's the sticky point. This whole "tradition of the Inklings"
>> notion is quite vague and smells more of someone trying to sell an article
>> then anything else.
>
> Sell an article?
>
> To whom?
>
>
Not "sell" perhaps, but get another published.
Steve Hayes
>I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is Lewis and
>Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no surprise: she's
>educated in the British system, read Classics, and is heavily influenced
>by the Arthurian tradition and Chaucer as well as classical texts like
>the Aeneid and the Odyssey. There's no question she's influenced by the
>same texts as Lewis and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as
>well as by T. H. White among other things. So sure, following at least
>in part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
After reading Jason's blog, I blogged about it here:
http://khanya.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/j-k-rowling-among-the-inklings/
and Jason commented on one aspect of it thus:
"As a matter of macroscopic comparison, I would probably agree with you,
Steve. (And remember, Gaiman was much influenced by the Inklings himself.) I
was really just drawing a comparison on this specific motif. However, there
are some other general similarities between Williams and Rowling, e.g., the
location of a supernatural world alongside (and usually invisible to) the
humdrum reality of the hoi polloi, the humorous and often parodic treatment of
class differences, vocations, etc. But I wasn’t trying to say Williams for a
major influence — or even any influence at all — on Rowling. It just struck me
as possible this motif in her novels came from Williams. There’s no evidence
of it, of course."
And if it comes down to the "hidden building motif" common to Williams and
Rowling, I remember a ghost story that was read to me by a teacher at school,
about a man who stayed in a hotel that had no room 13 - there was just a 12
and 14 - but during the night room 12 where he was staying suddenly altered
and a room 13 appeared. Perhaps both Williams and Rowling were influenced by
that story, or others like it. And Lewis used a similar one in gateways to
Narnia - now you see it, now you don't.
Another point of similarity, not specifically mentioned by Jason, but which
can be seen, is that both Williams (in "Many Dimensions") and Rowling satirise
British bureaucracy.
And when it comes to "the location of a supernatural world alongside (and
usually invisible to) the humdrum reality of the hoi polloi" Alan Garner's
children's books, especially "Elidor", do that too. That book would surely
make Garner an "honorary Inkling" too.
Clams Canino
"Weland" <gi...@poetic.com> wrote in message
> Not "sell" perhaps, but get another published.
Yes... I used the term "sell" loosely. I trust my intent was clear.
-W
Paul S. Person
<Roel....@philips.nl> wrote:
<snippo>
>That said. Book 4 of Rowling was indeed the weakest of all - should have
>been 240 pages instead of 500. On the other hand, kudos for Rowling
>finishing the tale after book 4 and 5 and keeping up a high level of
>quality. Compared to works of Herbert or Zelazny she actually managed to
>stand and deliver which the Dune- or Amber-tale missed, imho. Even the
>before unpublished or unfinished tales of Tolkien do prove - again imho -
>why they were not published before. They just lack quality. The one serie
>that stays strong that I can come up with is Vance's Demon Princes (but
>that's SF).
Of course, she had two advantages:
1) She had a defined end-point, that is, she knew the entire story
(please note that I do not say in how much detail she knew it, as it
may have been just an outline) before she started writing.
2) She lived long enough to finish it.
In the first case, I doubt that Herbert had such an outline before he
wrote /Dune/, and Zelazny's first Amber series was completed, it is
the second series that just ends, and which may or may not have had an
overall plot before it was started.
In the second case, IIRC, both Herbert and Zelazny died before they
could get the next book out. Which might or might not have been the
book that wrapped up the series.
And, in the case of Herbert, Washington State had discovered that it
was home to a /very/ popular and successful author, who had not
bothered to pay his B&O tax for several years. This gave Herbert a
financial incentive to spin the tale out as long as possible. So he
may or may not have ever actually wrapped it up. Yes, I know, his
heirs have put out a pair of novels purportedly based on Herbert's
plot outline for the end of the series, but if the publicity value of
that assertion is considered, the possibility that it was no such
thing must also be considered. Especially if they still had back B&O
taxes to pay.
Note: B&O taxes are an amazing invention by which the State of
Washington extracts, from each business, a percentage of its income --
which, as I understand it, includes any monies provided for startup! A
business can be paying B&O taxes on the money it gets from investors
for years before actually starting business operations, if it happens
to be the sort of business that takes a few years to start up. To be
fair, there is a lower limit below which the tax need not be paid, so
very small and not particularly successful business just have to file
a return to show that they don't owe the tax.
--
"Nature must be explained in
her own terms through
the experience of our senses."
Hari Seldon
Thanks for the reply! Apreciate it! Didn;t know about the tax-Herbert story.
But even in the first series of Zelazny I found book 5 kind of disappointed.
The story was so ultimate Epic that the solution to let Random be king was
ultimately disappointing. In series II Zelazny tried different writing
styles (James Joyce anyone?) and that didn;t work. I absolutely love Dune,
read Children of Dune and scanned the rest and threw it away. Same with the
Merlin-Zelazny story... Rowling on the other hand.. .I *read*, while she was
loaded, she continued...
richard e white
I will have to admit I've never heard of the defanistion before.
who came up with it?
--
Richard The Blind Typer.
Lets hear it for talking computers.
Try the Olympus DM-520 for digital music and Audio books!
Jeff Urs
> Thanks for the reply! Apreciate it! Didn;t know about the tax-Herbert story.
> But even in the first series of Zelazny I found book 5 kind of disappointed.
> The story was so ultimate Epic that the solution to let Random be king was
> ultimately disappointing. In series II Zelazny tried different writing
> styles (James Joyce anyone?) and that didn;t work. I absolutely love Dune,
> read Children of Dune and scanned the rest and threw it away. Same with the
> Merlin-Zelazny story... Rowling on the other hand.. .I *read*, while she was
> loaded, she continued...
IMO, _Dune_ by itself and Amber after _The Courts of Chaos_ are as
complete as Harry Potter after _The Deathly Hallows_. All the
important issues have been resolved, leaving nothing more that really
needs to be said. (And, really, who else but Random was there, except
for Corwin himself, who -- understandably -- no longer wanted it?)
--
Jeff
Weland
> On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:55:54 -0500, Weland<gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
>
>> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is Lewis and
>> Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no surprise: she's
>> educated in the British system, read Classics, and is heavily influenced
>> by the Arthurian tradition and Chaucer as well as classical texts like
>> the Aeneid and the Odyssey. There's no question she's influenced by the
>> same texts as Lewis and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as
>> well as by T. H. White among other things. So sure, following at least
>> in part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
>
> After reading Jason's blog, I blogged about it here:
>
> http://khanya.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/j-k-rowling-among-the-inklings/
>
> and Jason commented on one aspect of it thus:
>
> "As a matter of macroscopic comparison, I would probably agree with you,
> Steve. (And remember, Gaiman was much influenced by the Inklings himself.) I
> was really just drawing a comparison on this specific motif. However, there
> are some other general similarities between Williams and Rowling, e.g., the
> location of a supernatural world alongside (and usually invisible to) the
> humdrum reality of the hoi polloi, the humorous and often parodic treatment of
> major influence � or even any influence at all � on Rowling. It just struck me
> as possible this motif in her novels came from Williams. There�s no evidence
> of it, of course."
>
> And if it comes down to the "hidden building motif" common to Williams and
> Rowling, I remember a ghost story that was read to me by a teacher at school,
> about a man who stayed in a hotel that had no room 13 - there was just a 12
> and 14 - but during the night room 12 where he was staying suddenly altered
> and a room 13 appeared. Perhaps both Williams and Rowling were influenced by
> that story, or others like it. And Lewis used a similar one in gateways to
> Narnia - now you see it, now you don't.
House of Lost Play, Arthurian Romances, Christianity is built on the
assumption of an unseen world around us that we could see if only we had
spiritual vision...which saints do; Dickens even shows us a whole world
of spirits wandering around unseen....folktales have hidden buildings
and places.
> Another point of similarity, not specifically mentioned by Jason, but which
> can be seen, is that both Williams (in "Many Dimensions") and Rowling satirise
> British bureaucracy.
Not peculiar to these two authors either.
richard e white
> On 10/11/2010 8:41 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> > On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 18:55:54 -0500, Weland<gi...@poetic.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is Lewis and
> >> Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no surprise: she's
> >> educated in the British system, read Classics, and is heavily influenced
> >> by the Arthurian tradition and Chaucer as well as classical texts like
> >> the Aeneid and the Odyssey. There's no question she's influenced by the
> >> same texts as Lewis and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as
> >> well as by T. H. White among other things. So sure, following at least
> >> in part the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
> >
> > After reading Jason's blog, I blogged about it here:
> >
> > http://khanya.wordpress.com/2010/10/11/j-k-rowling-among-the-inklings/
> >
> > and Jason commented on one aspect of it thus:
> >
> > "As a matter of macroscopic comparison, I would probably agree with you,
> > Steve. (And remember, Gaiman was much influenced by the Inklings himself.) I
> > was really just drawing a comparison on this specific motif. However, there
> > are some other general similarities between Williams and Rowling, e.g., the
> > location of a supernatural world alongside (and usually invisible to) the
> > humdrum reality of the hoi polloi, the humorous and often parodic treatment of
> > class differences, vocations, etc. But I wasn’t trying to say Williams for a
> > major influence — or even any influence at all — on Rowling. It just struck me
> > as possible this motif in her novels came from Williams. There’s no evidence
> > of it, of course."
> >
> > And if it comes down to the "hidden building motif" common to Williams and
> > Rowling, I remember a ghost story that was read to me by a teacher at school,
> > about a man who stayed in a hotel that had no room 13 - there was just a 12
> > and 14 - but during the night room 12 where he was staying suddenly altered
> > and a room 13 appeared. Perhaps both Williams and Rowling were influenced by
> > that story, or others like it. And Lewis used a similar one in gateways to
> > Narnia - now you see it, now you don't.
>
> House of Lost Play, Arthurian Romances, Christianity is built on the
> assumption of an unseen world around us that we could see if only we had
> spiritual vision...which saints do; Dickens even shows us a whole world
> of spirits wandering around unseen....folktales have hidden buildings
> and places.
>
> > Another point of similarity, not specifically mentioned by Jason, but which
> > can be seen, is that both Williams (in "Many Dimensions") and Rowling satirise
> > British bureaucracy.
>
> Not peculiar to these two authors either.
>
> > And when it comes to "the location of a supernatural world alongside (and
> > usually invisible to) the humdrum reality of the hoi polloi" Alan Garner's
> > children's books, especially "Elidor", do that too. That book would surely
> > make Garner an "honorary Inkling" too.
> >
> >
> >
> >
If a spiritual vision is the center of the idea, then JKR's books don't fit. "The
red pyramid" might fit if a Christian view isn't required.
So the question is it only a Christian unseen world which sets these writers aside,
or is it just an unseen world?
richard e white
The problem in potter is that it is hard to belive everything was instantly fine.
No clean up, no hunting for people who slipped out the back. In fact no one even
explained how the Minster job went to shakabolt. Its like saying everything is
done after the vase hits the ground. The clean up was important as well. But
like so many movies the crash was better then what went on next.the
Troels Forchhammer
Weland <gi...@poetic.com> spoke these staves:
> On 10/10/2010 9:49 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>
<snip>
>> One of the reasons Sayers is sometimes described as an "honorary
>> Inkling" is that she was a fairly close friend of some of the
>> Inklings, though she never attended any of their gatherings. That
>> would not, of course, apply to Rowling.
I think we should look at the 'in the tradition of the Inklings' part
rather than waste too much effort on the 'honourary Inkling'
statement -- the latter is, as you point out, attributed to Sayers
because of some very specific historical circumstances and it is
nonsensical to attribute it to Rowling or any other author who didn't
belong to these particular historical circumstances.
Dirk said that
||| I guess to answer this question one would first have to agree
||| what this "tradition" is in the first place.
which I think is a very relevant question -- what, if anything, is
the 'tradition of the Inklings'? As I said, I am (in the present
company) particularly unknowledgeable about other Inklings than
Tolkien, but as Steve has pointed out, the Inklings' literary
production spans very widely (with some of them, as I understand it,
publishing nothing and others only non-fiction).
<snip>
> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is
> Lewis and Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no
> surprise: she's educated in the British system,
[...]
> There's no question she's influenced by the same texts as Lewis
> and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as well as by T. H.
> White among other things. So sure, following at least in part
> the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
But, as you put it here, you seem to imply that this tradition is
merely the tradition of any reasonably well-educated British fantasy
author? I'm sure much of the same could be said, for instance, of
Philip Pullman . . .
Is there anything that distinguishes the Inklings from the broader
background of British twentieth-century (sub-creative?) literature?
I'm fishing here, I know, but though there has been a lot of writing
about the Inklings, I don't think I have seen it suggested that their
work belongs to a common 'tradition' -- if anything the 'tradition'
was one of communality, of testing ideas on each other and openly
discussing each others' work, but this would, as I understand it, be
particularly inappropriate for Rowling who appears to have worked
very much alone.
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided
into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from,
and (d) rocks.
- /Equal Rites/ (Terry Pratchett)
Troels Forchhammer
<chip...@cox.net> spoke these staves:
> Weland wrote:
>
>> On 10/11/2010 8:41 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>>>
<snip and re-arranging>
>>> Another point of similarity, not specifically mentioned by
>>> Jason, but which can be seen, is that both Williams (in "Many
>>> Dimensions") and Rowling satirise British bureaucracy.
>>
>> Not peculiar to these two authors either.
No, hardly ;-)
Bureaucracy seems a common target of satire in any form of narrative
art -- whether film, comic-book (there's a delicious _Asterix_ that I
remember), poetry or prose (and possibly in other art-forms as well).
This seems more to be a tradition of artists ;-)
>>> And if it comes down to the "hidden building motif" common to
>>> Williams and Rowling, I remember a ghost story
<snip specifics>
>>> Perhaps both Williams and Rowling were influenced by that story,
>>> or others like it. And Lewis used a similar one in gateways to
>>> Narnia - now you see it, now you don't.
>>
>> House of Lost Play, Arthurian Romances, Christianity is built on
>> the assumption of an unseen world around us that we could see if
>> only we had spiritual vision...which saints do; Dickens even
>> shows us a whole world of spirits wandering around unseen....
I can see how the ieda of a spiritual world could translate into the
magical world both of Lewis and Rowling, but would you say that this
whole 'now you see it, now you don't' theme (at least as employed by,
say, Western fantasy authors) is derived from this Christian idea of
an unseen world?
>> folktales have hidden buildings and places.
aplenty . . . ;-)
>>> And when it comes to "the location of a supernatural world
>>> alongside (and usually invisible to) the humdrum reality of the
>>> hoi polloi" Alan Garner's children's books, especially
>>> "Elidor", do that too. That book would s urely make Garner an
>>> "honorary Inkling" too.
>
> If a spiritual vision is the center of the idea, then JKR's books
> don't fit.
Right, I quite agree.
And Rowling's books also doesn't have the same fundamental Christian
basis to them that do Tolkien's books and the Narnia books -- there
is, in my honest opinion, no sense of providence in Rowling's work,
none of the 'trust in God' that I get both in Lewis' Narnia books
and, far more subtly, in Tolkien's work. In both the Narnia books and
the Middle-earth books, the Christianity of the author is worked into
the causal basis of their sub-created world: trusting in providence,
for instance, actually does work in both worlds.
> "The red pyramid" might fit if a Christian view isn't required.
If we speak of the Inklings, then I do believe that the Christian
view would be required if any spirituality is a part of the
tradition. That is -- either the 'tradition of the Inklings' is
explicitly Christian, or there is no aspect of spirituality in it.
> So the question is it only a Christian unseen world which sets
> these writers aside, or is it just an unseen world?
And does even a 'Christian unseen world' set them apart? Or is this
such a common feature that it isn't defining of any particular group
of authors?
--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
++ Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot ++
- /Hogfather/ (Terry Pratchett)
Steve Hayes
One of their traditions was reading their work to each other.
Did Rowling discuss her work with anyone while she was writing it?
><snip>
>
>> I would say that one of the traditions Rowling is following is
>> Lewis and Tolkien, rather than the Inklings. And it should be no
>> surprise: she's educated in the British system,
>[...]
>> There's no question she's influenced by the same texts as Lewis
>> and Tolkien, and in addition by those authors as well as by T. H.
>> White among other things. So sure, following at least in part
>> the tradition of the "Inklings", but hardly an honorary Inkling.
>
>But, as you put it here, you seem to imply that this tradition is
>merely the tradition of any reasonably well-educated British fantasy
>author? I'm sure much of the same could be said, for instance, of
>Philip Pullman . . .
>
>Is there anything that distinguishes the Inklings from the broader
>background of British twentieth-century (sub-creative?) literature?
>
>I'm fishing here, I know, but though there has been a lot of writing
>about the Inklings, I don't think I have seen it suggested that their
>work belongs to a common 'tradition' -- if anything the 'tradition'
>was one of communality, of testing ideas on each other and openly
>discussing each others' work, but this would, as I understand it, be
>particularly inappropriate for Rowling who appears to have worked
>very much alone.
Yes, and I think the same applies to Pullman.
Dirk Thierbach
> In message <news:4CB9CA48...@cox.net> richard e white
> <chip...@cox.net> spoke these staves:
>> If a spiritual vision is the center of the idea, then JKR's books
>> don't fit.
> Right, I quite agree.
I'm actually not so sure. Critics thought for a long time that
the LotR was completely devoid of any reference to Christian themes.
> And Rowling's books also doesn't have the same fundamental Christian
> basis to them that do Tolkien's books and the Narnia books -- there
> is, in my honest opinion, no sense of providence in Rowling's work,
Just because Tolkien worked in the "providence" theme doesn't
mean that Rowling should, too.
> none of the 'trust in God' that I get both in Lewis' Narnia books
Well, Narnia is in many places a very thinly veiled Christian
allegory. If Lewis just built in the "trust of God" theme, the Narnia
books would be a lot less annoying in this respect.
> and, far more subtly, in Tolkien's work. In both the Narnia books and
> the Middle-earth books, the Christianity of the author is worked into
> the causal basis of their sub-created world:
But Harry Potter is also about the fight of Good against Evil, and
about the fact that power corrupts, and that sometimes people have to
make sacrifices to be able to save others.
I have not read the HP books often enough to be able to draw a clear
parallel to Christian ideas, but I wouldn't rule out that some
closer inspection would find the one thing or the other.
Maybe I should do a re-reading :-)
- Dirk
Dirk Thierbach
> On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 22:34:10 +0200, Troels Forchhammer
> <Tro...@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
>>Dirk said that
>>||| I guess to answer this question one would first have to agree
>>||| what this "tradition" is in the first place.
>>which I think is a very relevant question -- what, if anything, is
>>the 'tradition of the Inklings'?
> One of their traditions was reading their work to each other.
Well, I hardly think that the original author even thought remotely
about this aspect when he stated that "Rowling writes in the tradition
of the inklings".
- Dirk
Steve Hayes
<dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:
>Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>> In message <news:4CB9CA48...@cox.net> richard e white
>> <chip...@cox.net> spoke these staves:
>
>>> If a spiritual vision is the center of the idea, then JKR's books
>>> don't fit.
>
>> Right, I quite agree.
>
>I'm actually not so sure. Critics thought for a long time that
>the LotR was completely devoid of any reference to Christian themes.
Which critics would those be?
>> And Rowling's books also doesn't have the same fundamental Christian
>> basis to them that do Tolkien's books and the Narnia books -- there
>> is, in my honest opinion, no sense of providence in Rowling's work,
>
>Just because Tolkien worked in the "providence" theme doesn't
>mean that Rowling should, too.
No, it doesn't mean she should, it just means that she didn't, and that her
books are therefore different in that respect.
>> none of the 'trust in God' that I get both in Lewis' Narnia books
>
>Well, Narnia is in many places a very thinly veiled Christian
>allegory. If Lewis just built in the "trust of God" theme, the Narnia
>books would be a lot less annoying in this respect.
Not really an allegory.
>
>> and, far more subtly, in Tolkien's work. In both the Narnia books and
>> the Middle-earth books, the Christianity of the author is worked into
>> the causal basis of their sub-created world:
>
>But Harry Potter is also about the fight of Good against Evil, and
>about the fact that power corrupts, and that sometimes people have to
>make sacrifices to be able to save others.
Yes indeed.
I'd say that Rowling's books are informed by Christian ethics, but they are
not, as in the work of Lewis, Tolkien and Williams, fitted into a Christian
mythological framework.
>
>I have not read the HP books often enough to be able to draw a clear
>parallel to Christian ideas, but I wouldn't rule out that some
>closer inspection would find the one thing or the other.
>
>Maybe I should do a re-reading :-)
It's clear enough in some of the books. One can see there Christian ethics and
Christian values, but without the Christian mythological underpinning that one
finds in Lewis, Tolkien & Co.
Rowling manages to make her stories moral without being moralistic, and that
is one of the nice things about them.
Lewis occasionally lapses into moralism -- his advice about not locking
oneself in a wardrobe sounds a bit like something devised to promote the
health and safety regulations of a nanny state.
Julian Bradfield
> It's clear enough in some of the books. One can see there Christian ethics and
> Christian values, but without the Christian mythological underpinning that one
> finds in Lewis, Tolkien & Co.
Could you give an example of something that is specifically Christian
ethics and Christian values, rather than ethics and values shared by
many cultures?
Dirk Thierbach
> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 09:38:59 +0200, Dirk Thierbach
> <dthie...@usenet.arcornews.de> wrote:
>>Troels Forchhammer <Tro...@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>>> In message <news:4CB9CA48...@cox.net> richard e white
>>> <chip...@cox.net> spoke these staves:
>>>> If a spiritual vision is the center of the idea, then JKR's books
>>>> don't fit.
>>> Right, I quite agree.
>>
>>I'm actually not so sure. Critics thought for a long time that
>>the LotR was completely devoid of any reference to Christian themes.
> Which critics would those be?
Whichever critics the person who stated this was referring to; he
didn't name any in particular. And no, at the moment can't remember
where I read that. OTOH, I'm not at all surprised by it, so I consider
it likely to be true.
>>> And Rowling's books also doesn't have the same fundamental Christian
>>> basis to them that do Tolkien's books and the Narnia books -- there
>>> is, in my honest opinion, no sense of providence in Rowling's work,
>>Just because Tolkien worked in the "providence" theme doesn't
>>mean that Rowling should, too.
> No, it doesn't mean she should, it just means that she didn't, and that her
> books are therefore different in that respect.
Of course they are, but that doesn't mean that in order to "write in
the tradition of the Inlings" one should take that approach. Especially
since I'd say that this particular theme is especially emphasized by
Tolkien, and a lot less by the other Inklings, as far as I know them
(people who have read more from the other Inklings than I did please
correct me if I'm wrong).
>>> none of the 'trust in God' that I get both in Lewis' Narnia books
>>Well, Narnia is in many places a very thinly veiled Christian
>>allegory. If Lewis just built in the "trust of God" theme, the Narnia
>>books would be a lot less annoying in this respect.
> Not really an allegory.
Well, I consider using a "lion" for "Christ" pretty much an allegory,
for example. Whatever you like to call it.
There's a very clear cut one-to-one correspondence between between
very particular characters or actions in Narnia and very particular,
easy to identify counterparts in Christian teachings.
Or, to use Tolkien's words, there's a quite limited "applicability".
>>But Harry Potter is also about the fight of Good against Evil, and
>>about the fact that power corrupts, and that sometimes people have to
>>make sacrifices to be able to save others.
> Yes indeed.
>
> I'd say that Rowling's books are informed by Christian ethics, but they are
> not, as in the work of Lewis, Tolkien and Williams, fitted into a Christian
> mythological framework.
What exactly do you mean by a "Christian mythological framework"?
>>I have not read the HP books often enough to be able to draw a clear
>>parallel to Christian ideas, but I wouldn't rule out that some
>>closer inspection would find the one thing or the other.
>>
>>Maybe I should do a re-reading :-)
> It's clear enough in some of the books.
Can you give some concrete examples?
> One can see there Christian ethics and Christian values, but without
> the Christian mythological underpinning that one finds in Lewis,
> Tolkien & Co.
As I wrote, I don't think I understand what you mean here.
> Rowling manages to make her stories moral without being moralistic, and that
> is one of the nice things about them.
Yep. Though "morality" by itself doesn't mean "Christian". That's why
I'd prefer to have a closer look.
> Lewis occasionally lapses into moralism
For rather large values of "occasionally", bordering on "often".
- Dirk
Steve Morrison
> With respect to Tolkien, I can see some parallels in Rowling's works,
> but not enough that I would say that she is following in the
> tradition of Tolkien -- for that to have been true, there would, in
> my opinion, have had to be a greater parallel in the ways the two
> authors use and relate to their source material, but what about the
> other Inklings?
I've always been underwhelmed by the supposed signs of Tolkienian
influence on Rowling, e.g. "the Whomping Willow is just like Old
Man Willow!" or "Tolkien wrote a poem with the line /He battled
with the Dumbledors/!" They mostly seem explainable by common
sources, a common interest in obscure and archaic words, and sheer
coincidence (when you're looking for possible parallels in a long
and complicated source you'd expect a lot of false positives due
to coincidence, and the likelihood is more than squared when the
later work is even longer and more intricate!) The one such claim
that does look plausible is the number of hobbit names which
reappear in the Potter books: Proudfoot, Everard, Odo, Puddifoot,
etc.
> Is there a common denominator for the Inklings in which tradition
> Rowling follows? And just to whet the appetite for discussion, I
> would say that I am highly sceptical of the claims of Rowling's
> Christianity as an inspiration for the books: while I can see much in
> both Tolkien's and Lewis' work that relies on their Christian
> _faith_, I see nothing of that sort in Rowling's work. There is
> Christian culture and Christian ethics, but not specifically
> Christian faith or spirituality (here I am more inclined to agree
> with the views ostensibly supported the then Cardinal Ratzinger [2]).
I do take the "Christian symbolism" claims more seriously.
First, there is the obvious Crucifixion parallel in the way Harry
saves the world at the end of /Deathly Hallows/! And that book also
has a number of allusions to crosses, quotes from the New Testament,
etc. But long before it was published, some analysts did see
traditional Christian symbolism in the series: references to stags,
griffins, phoenixes, etc. The go-to man for this is John Granger,
who runs the "Hogwarts Professor" web site at
http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com (and I see that one of your links
goes to an article on that site). There is also Travis Prinzi's
site "The Hog's Head" at http://thehogshead.org/ where such things
are frequently discussed; the latter has a forum where you could
ask questions if anyone is interested. There is also at least one
book specifically on the subject, though I haven't read it:
http://outskirtspress.com/webpage.php?ISBN=9781432741129
Steve Hayes
Dirk Thierbach
> I've always been underwhelmed by the supposed signs of Tolkienian
> influence on Rowling, e.g. "the Whomping Willow is just like Old
> Man Willow!" or "Tolkien wrote a poem with the line /He battled
> with the Dumbledors/!" They mostly seem explainable by common
> sources, a common interest in obscure and archaic words, and sheer
> coincidence (when you're looking for possible parallels in a long
> and complicated source you'd expect a lot of false positives due
> to coincidence, and the likelihood is more than squared when the
> later work is even longer and more intricate!)
I completely agree.
> The one such claim that does look plausible is the number of hobbit
> names which reappear in the Potter books: Proudfoot, Everard, Odo,
> Puddifoot, etc.
I wouldn't count that one: Rowling uses names very differently from
Tolkien, though both have fun with names in their own. And AFAIK
(someone correct me if I'm wrong), these are all common English last
names.
> I do take the "Christian symbolism" claims more seriously.
> First, there is the obvious Crucifixion parallel in the way Harry
> saves the world at the end of /Deathly Hallows/!
As I said, I only read DH once, at that was some time ago, so I
don't really feel qualified for a discussion about details.
OTOH, form me the parallel "Harry = Christ" seems to be as silly as
the parallel "Gandalf = Christ", because Gandalf was "resurrected" as
well. If Rowling really did write this with the intention of a
parallel, then I am somewhat disappointed.
> And that book also has a number of allusions to crosses, quotes from
> the New Testament, etc. But long before it was published, some
> analysts did see traditional Christian symbolism in the series:
> references to stags, griffins, phoenixes, etc. The go-to man for
> this is John Granger, who runs the "Hogwarts Professor" web site at
> http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com
I've read some of the articles there, and it's intersting stuff.
(Though either the site doesn't like my uncommon browser, or some
of the content is gone. I can't see the article in
http://www.hogwartsprofessor.com/the-christian-content-of-deathly-hallows-a/
for example, only the comments).
OTOH, Granger seriously proposes to see Gilderoy Lockhart as a parallel
to Philip Pullman, which I think is totally nuts. So I'm a bit wary now
of what he writes.
- Dirk