LTW and the Chelgrian-Puen (Spoilers)
Gordon Jinks
threads till I finished LTW (really enjoyed it), so forgive me if you've all
been over this already, but...
S
p
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P
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SPOILERS FROM HERE...
Hope that's enough...
I can't help wondering whether there ever was any of this partial-subliming
from the Chelgrian race, or whether the communications from the C-P to the
Chelgrians were actually part of the plot by whoever the other Involved's
were (The Reviled?) who were the Chelgrians' "allies" against the Culture.
They set up the Chelgrians over the very long term, and used the
airsphere/behemothosaurs and their mysterious protectors to wipe them out
afterwards. (I know this last part has been discussed, but it seems to fit
with the rest.)
Hints (I think):
-A lot of fuss is made about how unusual the partial subliming, and then
re-contacting of the non-sublimed population is, and that it was out of step
with the rest of Chelgrian development.
-All we know is that a significant proportion of the Chelgrians disappeared,
and then the C-P made contact with key figures, and built the Chelgrian
heaven - a key element in the subsequent manipulation
-We are told somewhere that the Involved races plan for the very long term.
-The drones that were representing the 'allies' communicate in the same way
as the C-P; i.e. in capital letters and with an apparently poor grasp of
Chelgrian lingo
-How else could Huyler have been turned - it would cost him his place in
heaven. I think he says SC showed him all there was to know about his
civilisation.
Does this make sense to others? If you've been over it all before, maybe
someone could just fill me in on what the conclusions were. Oh and could it
all have been some kind of revenge for the Twin-Novae cock-up? (Haven't got
any evidence for that though.)
I loved this book, but I agree with those who've said it feels like IMB may
be tired of writing about the Culture - he seems to be showing us a society
in decline - they've been around a long time for an Involved, the human
portion at least are complacent, decadent. And it seems clear that in the
far future they're gone and forgotten - how long is a Grand Cycle?
Cheers everyone
Gordon
Richard Puchalsky
The problem with the theory that none of the Chelgrians ever sublimed, and
that the allies are faking that as well, is that it removes any motivation
to dispose of the Chelgrians. Without the Chelgrian-Puen they are just
another Involved, not a very powerful one, and to some degree crippled by
their caste system. I can't see any reason for anyone to risk destroying
them in that way if it wasn't that they were in contact with their Sublimed.
>
> Hints (I think):
>
> -A lot of fuss is made about how unusual the partial subliming, and then
> re-contacting of the non-sublimed population is, and that it was out of
step
> with the rest of Chelgrian development.
>
> -All we know is that a significant proportion of the Chelgrians
disappeared,
> and then the C-P made contact with key figures, and built the Chelgrian
> heaven - a key element in the subsequent manipulation
>
> -We are told somewhere that the Involved races plan for the very long
term.
>
All of these work equally well with the more straigthforward theory that the
"allies" were worried about the C-P and set them up to be destroyed by the
behemothar protectors.
> -The drones that were representing the 'allies' communicate in the same
way
> as the C-P; i.e. in capital letters and with an apparently poor grasp of
> Chelgrian lingo
I think that anyone of the technical ability of the "allies" could pull off
this not-too-difficult deception.
>
> -How else could Huyler have been turned - it would cost him his place in
> heaven. I think he says SC showed him all there was to know about his
> civilisation.
SC is perfectly able to offer an equally good Heaven if anyone wants one.
>
>
> Does this make sense to others? If you've been over it all before, maybe
> someone could just fill me in on what the conclusions were.
I don't know if there were any conclusions -- I was the most prolix
proponent of the "allies set up the Chelgrian to be destroyed by the
behemothaur protectors" theory, but I don't know how many other people
beleive it.
> Oh and could it
> all have been some kind of revenge for the Twin-Novae cock-up? (Haven't
got
> any evidence for that though.)
I didn't see any evidence for that either, so I doubt it.
>
>
> I loved this book, but I agree with those who've said it feels like IMB
may
> be tired of writing about the Culture - he seems to be showing us a
society
> in decline - they've been around a long time for an Involved, the human
> portion at least are complacent, decadent. And it seems clear that in the
> far future they're gone and forgotten - how long is a Grand Cycle?
Hundreds of millions of years, I think. Of course, the entire Culture
could have Sublimed a million years after the events of most of the novel,
giving them what seems like a fairly long Involved species lifetime, and
they'd still be a long time gone a Grand Cycle later. But this does
indicate that the Culture did not succeed in changing anything basic in the
galaxy. They didn't successfully civilize everyone and start a new
meta-civilization that would last a long time after they were gone. If they
had, they'd be remembered, even if just as an important historical group.
So I agree that the final behemothaur scene confirms the tone of the rest of
the book.
Paul MacFarlane
Gordon Jinks wrote:
> This may be obvious or already discussed, but I've been avoiding these
> threads till I finished LTW (really enjoyed it), so forgive me if you've all
> been over this already, but...
>
> S
>
> p
>
> O
>
> I
>
> L
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> E
>
> R
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> S
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> P
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> A
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> C
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> E
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> .
>
> .
>
> .
>
> SPOILERS FROM HERE..
> snip
> I loved this book, but I agree with those who've said it feels like IMB may
> be tired of writing about the Culture - he seems to be showing us a society
> in decline - they've been around a long time for an Involved, the human
> portion at least are complacent, decadent. And it seems clear that in the
> far future they're gone and forgotten - how long is a Grand Cycle?
>
> Cheers everyone
>
> Gordon
Some one will have already said this, but there was an interview with Banks in
the metro section of the Sat Times a few weeks ago in which he suggested he was
finished with the culture.
PDM
Richard Puchalsky
> From: "Richard Puchalsky" <rpuch...@att.net>
> > "Gordon Jinks" <gor...@valisk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This may be obvious or already discussed, but I've been avoiding these
> > > threads till I finished LTW (really enjoyed it), so forgive me if
you've
> > all
> > > been over this already, but...
> > >
> > >
> > > S
> > >
> > >
> > > p
> > >
> > >
> > > O
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > > P
> > >
> > >
> > > A
> > >
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> > > C
> > >
> > >
> > > E
> > >
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> > > .
> > >
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> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > > .
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> >
> > The problem with the theory that none of the Chelgrians ever sublimed,
and
> > that the allies are faking that as well, is that it removes any
motivation
> > to dispose of the Chelgrians. Without the Chelgrian-Puen they are just
> > another Involved, not a very powerful one, and to some degree crippled
by
> > their caste system. I can't see any reason for anyone to risk
destroying
> > them in that way if it wasn't that they were in contact with their
> Sublimed.
> >
>
> Hmm. Yes I see what you mean - I was thinking along the lines of get some
> sap to do your dirty work, then get them out of the picture in case a
> connection is discovered, but I guess you'd want them out quicker, unless
> you were confident you'd covered your tracks pretty well in the short term
> but had a long term vulnerability.
Oh, now I understand. No, I don't think the Chelgrians were set up just to
remove them as links back to the "allies" for the Masaq Hub scheme. As you
say above, eliminating them as a species takes far to long to silence them
in the short term, and I can't think of what long term vulnerability there
would be. Plus, putting them into conflict with the behemothaur protectors
is inherently risky -- what if the behemothaur protectors find out who the
allies were? -- and I can't see anyone doing it for a relatively small
scheme like the Masaq one. It makes more sense to me the other way around:
the "allies" couldn't care less about success of the Masaq Hub scheme, and
the only reason they did it was to sucker the Chelgrians into wiping
themselves out (over the long term). Banks explained early on why other
Involveds might want to remove the Chelgrians as a threat.
> I guess the test for whether or not the C-P were real might be whether
> contact continued after the events of the book? As far as I recall we
don't
> get any info about this.
In the short term, after the main events of the book we get a page or so
from Huyler, explaining his part in the events. He says that he and Ziller
became friends some time afterwards, and that he was about to talk Ziller
into coming back to Chel. I think he'd mention it if the Chelgrian Puen had
suddenly disappeared.
Richard Horton
On Thu, 14 Sep 2000 21:03:24 +0100, "Gordon Jinks"
<gor...@valisk.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>This may be obvious or already discussed, but I've been avoiding these
>threads till I finished LTW (really enjoyed it), so forgive me if you've all
>been over this already, but...
>
>
>S
>
>
>p
>
>
>O
>
>
>I
>
>
>L
>
>
>E
>
>
>R
>
>
>
>
>
>S
>
>
>P
>
>
>A
>
>
>C
>
>
>E
>
>
>.
>
>
>.
>
>
>.
>
>
>SPOILERS FROM HERE...
>
>
>
>
>
>Hope that's enough...
>
>
>I can't help wondering whether there ever was any of this partial-subliming
>from the Chelgrian race, or whether the communications from the C-P to the
>Chelgrians were actually part of the plot by whoever the other Involved's
>were (The Reviled?)
The Chelgrians are the Lesser Reviled. Are you suggesting the other
Involved species was called (by the Behemothaurs) the Reviled? Nice
idea.
> who were the Chelgrians' "allies" against the Culture.
>They set up the Chelgrians over the very long term, and used the
>airsphere/behemothosaurs and their mysterious protectors to wipe them out
>afterwards. (I know this last part has been discussed, but it seems to fit
>with the rest.)
>
I haven't read the spoiler threads yet, because I just finished LTW
this morning.
>Hints (I think):
>
>-A lot of fuss is made about how unusual the partial subliming, and then
>re-contacting of the non-sublimed population is, and that it was out of step
>with the rest of Chelgrian development.
>
>-All we know is that a significant proportion of the Chelgrians disappeared,
>and then the C-P made contact with key figures, and built the Chelgrian
>heaven - a key element in the subsequent manipulation
>
>-We are told somewhere that the Involved races plan for the very long term.
>
>-The drones that were representing the 'allies' communicate in the same way
>as the C-P; i.e. in capital letters and with an apparently poor grasp of
>Chelgrian lingo
>
>-How else could Huyler have been turned - it would cost him his place in
>heaven. I think he says SC showed him all there was to know about his
>civilisation.
>
>
>Does this make sense to others? If you've been over it all before, maybe
>someone could just fill me in on what the conclusions were. Oh and could it
>all have been some kind of revenge for the Twin-Novae cock-up? (Haven't got
>any evidence for that though.)
>
Excellent idea, I think. I'll have to mull it.
I've been wondering if the Homomdans, and Kabe Ischloaer, are a
reasonable candidate for the bad Involved race.
And can we assume that the Chelgrians as a civilization met with a Bad
End not long after the events of the book? (Or, at any rate, not long
by behemothaur standards.) And if the Chelgrians are the Lesser
Reviled, would not the "Greater Reviled", if they are in fact those
who used the Chelgrians as cat's paws, also have met a Bad End?
(Sorry if this is all old hat. I will be looking up the threads I've
been skipping.)
>
>I loved this book, but I agree with those who've said it feels like IMB may
>be tired of writing about the Culture - he seems to be showing us a society
>in decline - they've been around a long time for an Involved, the human
>portion at least are complacent, decadent. And it seems clear that in the
>far future they're gone and forgotten - how long is a Grand Cycle?
>
>Cheers everyone
>
>Gordon
>
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Gordon Jinks
> > were (The Reviled?) who were the Chelgrians' "allies" against the
Culture.
> > They set up the Chelgrians over the very long term, and used the
> > airsphere/behemothosaurs and their mysterious protectors to wipe them
out
> > afterwards. (I know this last part has been discussed, but it seems to
> fit
> > with the rest.)
>
> The problem with the theory that none of the Chelgrians ever sublimed, and
> that the allies are faking that as well, is that it removes any motivation
> to dispose of the Chelgrians. Without the Chelgrian-Puen they are just
> another Involved, not a very powerful one, and to some degree crippled by
> their caste system. I can't see any reason for anyone to risk destroying
> them in that way if it wasn't that they were in contact with their
Sublimed.
>
Hmm. Yes I see what you mean - I was thinking along the lines of get some
sap to do your dirty work, then get them out of the picture in case a
connection is discovered, but I guess you'd want them out quicker, unless
you were confident you'd covered your tracks pretty well in the short term
but had a long term vulnerability.
>
Snipped
> > -The drones that were representing the 'allies' communicate in the same
> way
> > as the C-P; i.e. in capital letters and with an apparently poor grasp of
> > Chelgrian lingo
>
> I think that anyone of the technical ability of the "allies" could pull
off
> this not-too-difficult deception.
Yes, I meant this the other way round really - how come the C-P seem to use
their own language in such an odd way - is this just an example of sublimed
strangeness?
I guess the test for whether or not the C-P were real might be whether
contact continued after the events of the book? As far as I recall we don't
get any info about this.
> I don't know if there were any conclusions -- I was the most prolix
> proponent of the "allies set up the Chelgrian to be destroyed by the
> behemothaur protectors" theory, but I don't know how many other people
> beleive it.
Well, I'm with you on that.
Gordon
p.s. Sorry Richard: e-mailed this to you when I meant to post it to the
group.
Grey Area
And it seems clear that in the far future they're gone and forgotten -
how long is a Grand Cycle?
should think so too...the period of orbit of our sun has been
guestimated at between 230 and 240 million years....
Kind regards
Grey Area
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> should think so too...the period of orbit of our sun has been
> guestimated at between 230 and 240 million years....
> Kind regards
This makes me think of Bohr. I think it was Bohr. When they asked him if
he believe in God he demurred, but then, cornered, said "Well, no... I
believe in something much greater."
Or, to stick more to SF, the end of Le Guin's "Those who walk away from
Omelas:"They leave Omelas, they walk ahead into the darkness, and they
do not come back. The place they go towards is a place even less
imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe
it at all. It is possible that it does not exist. But they seem to know
where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas."
--
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