Is Inversions a Culture novel?
Stephen Knight
been started elsewhere. Having read the brilliant Inversions just recently
and having devoured everything on The Culture I can get hold of, I'm
convinced this book has a tenuous link to the Culture via the Doctor.
Haven't read it? Don't read this next bit then !
I think the dagger is a terminal and there's quite a bit of evidence for her
being a contact/SC agent...any thoughts?
Grey Area
Sorry I totally disagree;
The appearance of Knife missiles, A black body drone, a terminal etc.
and the mention of Special Circumstances, does not mean that the Culture
is involved.
If every time IMB writes a new novel everyone asks "Is so and so a
Culture novel?" then we will have come to a pretty dire situation...
I mean to say; You'll be telling me that Excession was about the Culture
next!
Regards
Grey Area
P.S. Welcome aboard!
Gerald Pfeifer
I thought that Banks had actually acknowledged that this one was at
least set in the culture universe, if not a culture novel
SPOILER SPACE
I'm sure one of the banks websites will have a report/breakdown in it,
and Deja News will have the complete a.b.i-b discussion files, but
here's a sort of summary
The conclusion this group thrashed out was that Sechroom and Hiliti
are Vossil and DeWar, DeWar having left the Culture on a personal
agenda, the 'paradise' he talks of, and Vossil is from Special
Circumstances. It explains Vossil's knife missile in the torture
chamber, and her body's ability to resist the poison she feeds to the
dying man. Also, she leaves the ship at the very end under 'Special
Circumstances'. If I forgot anything, it's in DejaNews.
I think this book is one of his best, as it can be read without any
knowledge of the Culture (I read it with very little), but if you have
read the other books then extra depths are added. Contrary to what
others on this group think, I found it excellent even on a first
reading where I only made the vaguest of connections to the Culture.
I have to disagree with Grey Area, as why would Banks include all the
Culture artefacts and references if he wanted it to be standalone?
Surely he wanted it readable in both lights, so Banks devotees could
feel smug when they spotted things :)
Although not techincally a 'Culture book', it fits the Culture
universe nicely - some passages would be redundant if it was
religiously taken as standalone.
End of rant
-Gezz
Grey Area
Kindest regards
GA
Galadriel
I totally agree with everything that Gezz said GA. Were you being
sarcastic with your own rant how otherwise people will think that every
new book is a culture book? And even saying that Excession is not a
culture book. Were you trying to be sarcastic/funny?
Hmmm.
Galadriel
"The train is always late. Unless you are."
Gerald Pfeifer
No, you just improve yours!
I know you know excession is a culture book, but the newbie might not
have. Remember, sarcasm doesn't often come over well on the net.
No offence intended -Ged
Ross Burton
themselves "Stephen Knight" <st...@kitmaster.freeserve.co.uk>
scribbled:
>Hi guys & gals, just joined this newsgroup, so forgive me if this thread has
>been started elsewhere. Having read the brilliant Inversions just recently
>and having devoured everything on The Culture I can get hold of, I'm
>convinced this book has a tenuous link to the Culture via the Doctor.
>Haven't read it? Don't read this next bit then !
SPOLILER SPACE
Iain Banks has said that it "is and isn't" a Culture novel - not set
in the Culture per se, but the Doctor _is_ a Culture agent. Those
_are_ knife missiles.
DeWar also hints at once being from the Culture, though I'll have to
re-read to check that...
There is a discussion on my web site from Iain Banks
(http://come.to/slipstream) to save me copying it here (and my phone
bill!)
Regards,
Ross Burton
Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you can find a rock.
House of Fun - http://www.fortunecity.com/bennyhills/holygrail/42/
Email: burton at dcs dot kcl dot ac dot uk
ICQ: 5167146
Nick Burn
worth ...
In Use of Weapons, when Cheradenine is about to kill the Ethnarch,
Cheradenine tells the Ethnarch about the Culture and Contact. Cheradenine
says ...
"Many of their people become physicians to great leaders, and with medicines
and treatments that seem like magic to the comparatively primitive people
they're dealing with, ensure that a great and good leader has a better
chance of surviving"
Sounds a lot like Inversions to me. By the way, I thought Inversions was
great. Comparisons with its style and Song of Stone have made me want to
re-read SoS.
Finally, as a new subscriber to this group, feel free to make any
contibution you like
Cheers
Nick Burn
Nelroy
<3678EA...@hotmail.com>...
> Gerald Pfeifer wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 10:42:11 +0000, Grey Area
> > <Greay_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
<snip>
> }
> > }Sorry I totally disagree;
> > }The appearance of Knife missiles, A black body drone, a terminal etc.
> > }and the mention of Special Circumstances, does not mean that the
Culture
> > }is involved.
> > }If every time IMB writes a new novel everyone asks "Is so and so a
> > }Culture novel?" then we will have come to a pretty dire situation...
> > }I mean to say; You'll be telling me that Excession was about the
Culture
> > }next!
> > }
> > }Regards
> > }
> > }Grey Area
> >
<snip>
> get a sense of humour
> Kindest regards
> GA
>
NO NO NO NO! please everybody, don't be fooled into misguided and aberrant
conclusions. Inversions is clearly an attempt by Banks to write a
Discworld novel without overtly breaching Terry Pratchett's copyright. The
hilarious scenes in the torture chamber are straight out of "Men at Arms"
and the geography of the harem is almost literally lifted from "Interesting
Times". Vossil is onbviously the witch Agnes (alias Perdita) trying some
headology on the local king, who actually bears a strong resemblance to the
Patrician. Oelph (a.k.a. cut-me-own-throat-Oelph) needs no explanation.
All this stuff about the dagger - I mean it's nothing a Lancre witch
couldn't have concocted by coaxing a bird with a particularly sharp bill
and bright jewel-like plumage. And it doesn't stop at Inversions - what
about the uncanny resonance between the first scene in CP and the
Patrician's treatment of mime artists**. And the cap on it all - if a GSV
isn't a Discworld then I don't know what is. I'm sorry to put a damper on
this thread, but I hope everyone will benefit from this definitive
explanation.
Nelroy
** What the patrician does to mime artists is this :- he hangs them upside
down in a scorpion pit opposite a sign with the text "LEARN THE WORDS!".
And to those of you who haven't read Pratchett here is some advice:- read
Pratchett.
Robin Cooper
<st...@kitmaster.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Hi guys & gals, just joined this newsgroup, so forgive me if this thread has
>been started elsewhere. Having read the brilliant Inversions just recently
>and having devoured everything on The Culture I can get hold of, I'm
>convinced this book has a tenuous link to the Culture via the Doctor.
>Haven't read it? Don't read this next bit then !
>
s
p
o
i
l
e
r
s
p
a
c
e
>I think the dagger is a terminal and there's quite a bit of evidence for her
>being a contact/SC agent...any thoughts?
>
>
Personally I'd say the dagger is a disguised drone or knife missile,
with other, smaller units disguised as the gems (remember that they
seemed to appear and disappear). I'd also say that the bodyguard
character is Culture.
Robin.
Marius Břhmer
anyone please explain why, and it won't happen again...
Oops drifting a bit there, but I think Stephen is onto something there 'bout
the good doctor.
Personally I believe that if you compare the character of the doctor with
Cheradenine Zakalwe of Use Of Weapons you might see where I'm poiting:)
Stephen Knight wrote in message
<759e2d$ssq$1...@newsreader3.core.theplanet.net>...
>Hi guys & gals, just joined this newsgroup, so forgive me if this thread
has
>been started elsewhere. Having read the brilliant Inversions just recently
>and having devoured everything on The Culture I can get hold of, I'm
>convinced this book has a tenuous link to the Culture via the Doctor.
>Haven't read it? Don't read this next bit then !
>
Mark Dadgar
> Sorry I totally disagree;
> The appearance of Knife missiles, A black body drone, a terminal etc.
Can someone cite exactly where the black body drone is mentioned? I don't
remember that part.
Thanks.
- Mark
--
Mark Dadgar
Product Manager
CoreOS, Mac OS X
Apple Computer
mda...@apple.com
Ameen of the Dausha
>
>I totally agree with everything that Gezz said GA. Were you being
>sarcastic with your own rant how otherwise people will think that every
>new book is a culture book? And even saying that Excession is not a
>culture book. Were you trying to be sarcastic/funny?
>
>Hmmm.
I read GA's first post and readily caught it as a very sarcastic
comment. I mean, he said that the reference to knife missles and
special circumstances didn't qualify this as a Culture book, yet we
all know that it is. He's just being very, very British. . .
Ameen Dausha
"To some Patriotism is more than an attitude--it is a religion
Fear them. For to these people life is a means to an end rather than
and end to itself."
--Ameen Dausha
Gryffyd
<Greay_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>get a sense of humour
>Kindest regards
Try posting something intelligent.
If all you can do is be snide, there's no call for jumping on someone
who's trying to give a newcomer to the group the lowdown on a topic.
--
The Turtle Moves!
-----------------
Gryffyd
keith waddell
contributors, I really can't see what there is to argue about.
Inversions is undoubtably, obviously, indisputably a "Culture" novel. Just
because the Culture is never mentioned by name; or there are no
hundred-kilometre ships with quirky names; and no floating suitcases that talk
back to you (thank god!) doesn't make it any less a part of the Culture series.
I think it is typically Banks - to follow a high-tech, space opera novel
(Excession), with a human-focused, low-tech novel like Inversions. Just as he
followed the "big, cuddly family book" that was The Crow Road with the bleak,
psychotic Complicity.
Ameen of the Dausha
>On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 12:23:34 GMT, dau...@mindspring.com (Ameen of the
>Dausha) wrote:
>
>
>>I read GA's first post and readily caught it as a very sarcastic
>>comment. I mean, he said that the reference to knife missles and
>>special circumstances didn't qualify this as a Culture book, yet we
>>all know that it is. He's just being very, very British. . .
>>
>
>He was.
>But it was irony, not sarcasm - which is probably (er. no. actually,
>lets *not* go there:)
>
>Glad some people read it & realised ....
>Personaly, I laughed long & loud when I read it & then again @ the
>replies.
>Gold star to Grey_Area :)
>
>LazyGun
Irony? How 'bout sarcastic irony?
Stephen Knight
It has certainly opened up a lot of areas for discussion both in and out of
this group. It also gives me a pretty good idea how about the dynamics of
this group work....think I'll stay on if it's all the same to you guys!
Cheers, Steve.
Nick Hine
>>
>
>He was.
>But it was irony, not sarcasm - which is probably (er. no. actually,
>lets *not* go there:)
I advocate the use of </IRONY> and </SARCASM> HTML tags for the benefit of
Americans.
Zebidee
Grey Area
Never mind, Steve.
I hope that my original response to your question was taken as intended;
i.e. as a joke (to everyone else reading this: IT WAS A JOKE!) the real
point is that my reference to Excession should have rung alarm bells
with everyone E being almost nothing but Culture all the way through and
it was also a rather clumsy nod to "The Bridge: Culture or not Culture
novel" which seems to crop up now and again as a subject on this ng.
My message was in no way intended as anything even remotely resembling a
flame. But of course other people will try and leap in...
Anyway as I said before: Welcome to the group!
Regards
Grey Area
Grey Area
>
> I totally agree with everything that Gezz said GA. Were you being
> sarcastic with your own rant how otherwise people will think that every
> new book is a culture book? And even saying that Excession is not a
> culture book. Were you trying to be sarcastic/funny?
>
> Hmmm.
>
>
> "The train is always late. Unless you are."
What do you think?
GA
Grey Area
>
> Galadriel <al...@sofa.home.elephant.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >I totally agree with everything that Gezz said GA. Were you being
> >sarcastic with your own rant how otherwise people will think that every
> >new book is a culture book? And even saying that Excession is not a
> >culture book. Were you trying to be sarcastic/funny?
> >
> >Hmmm.
>
> comment. I mean, he said that the reference to knife missles and
> special circumstances didn't qualify this as a Culture book, yet we
>
> Ameen Dausha
>
> "To some Patriotism is more than an attitude--it is a religion
> Fear them. For to these people life is a means to an end rather than
> and end to itself."
>
> --Ameen Dausha
oh please
GA
Grey Area
>
> He's just being very, very British. . .
> >>
> >
> >But it was irony, not sarcasm - which is probably (er. no. actually,
> >lets *not* go there:)
>
> I advocate the use of </IRONY> and </SARCASM> HTML tags for the benefit of
> Americans.
>
> Zebidee
Now there's an idea
GA
Grey Area
>
> On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 11:25:22 +0000, Grey Area
>
> No, you just improve yours!
> I know you know excession is a culture book, but the newbie might not
> have. Remember, sarcasm doesn't often come over well on the net.
>
> No offence intended -Ged
Well Steve did say that he had read everything on the Culture that he
could get hold of...maybe a newbie to the ng but not to Culture books.
No offence intended and none taken!
Regards
GA
Rich Horton
SPOILERS of course, for INVERSIONS
Keith is right, of course. Note, too, that Banks does, slyly, mention
both the Culture and Special Circumstances by name. (The introductory
paragraph says of the Doctor that she was "without Argument, from a
different Culture", and when she disappears she declines an invitation
to dine with the captain, because she is indisposed "due to special
circumstances".
I suppose it's clear that Sechroom = the Doctor, and Hiliti = the
Bodyguard. Remember that Sechroom decided to become a
"soldier-missionary", while Hiliti "exiled himself from Lavishia [the
Culture] forever", just as the Doctor is taken away by a Culture ship,
while the Bodyguard lives out his life on the planet. And Sechroom
had a scar behind her ear due to the accident in the river: isn't this
what Ralinge discovers when he shaves her head?
There is no explanation for the events of _Inversions_ without
invoking something like the Culture: why invoke something new, then?
(And, gee whiz, the cover of _Invsersions_ depicts a knife missile.
Cool, eh?)
--
Rich Horton | rrho...@concentric.net
Web Page: www.sff.net/people/richard.horton (New reviews of
_Halfway Human_ and _The Star Fraction_ and _Deepdrive_.)
Eytan Zweig
keith waddell wrote in message
<367C2F62...@espedairst.freeserve.co.uk>...
>I've read all this thread so far, and without meaning offence to any of the
>contributors, I really can't see what there is to argue about.
>Inversions is undoubtably, obviously, indisputably a "Culture" novel. Just
>because the Culture is never mentioned by name; or there are no
>hundred-kilometre ships with quirky names; and no floating suitcases that
talk
>back to you (thank god!) doesn't make it any less a part of the Culture
series.
>I think it is typically Banks - to follow a high-tech, space opera novel
>(Excession), with a human-focused, low-tech novel like Inversions. Just as
he
>followed the "big, cuddly family book" that was The Crow Road with the
bleak,
>psychotic Complicity.
>
Let me begin by quoting from Inversion's "A Note on the Text":
"the Woman Vosill, a Royal Physician during the reign of King Quience, and
who may, or may not, have been from the distant Archipelago of Drezen but
who was, without Argument, from a different Culture." (Captalization as in
source).
While that's more or less all I can say about the doctor, I believe that the
bodyguard's stories of Lavishia give a rather clear picture of who both
characters are, why they chose the paths they chose, and yes, that they are
originally from the Culture. Whether they are SC agents or not is far more
debatable IMO - I didn't find much evidence of it, but I admit I was far too
swept by the narrative to pay attention to details.
Eytan Zweig
Jarno Van Der Linden
>While that's more or less all I can say about the doctor, I believe that the
>bodyguard's stories of Lavishia give a rather clear picture of who both
>characters are, why they chose the paths they chose, and yes, that they are
>originally from the Culture. Whether they are SC agents or not is far more
Yet, there is in my mind a strange discrepancy in the hypothesis that
the doctor is the girl in the stories.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm doing this from memory.)
During the waterfall incident, the girl suffers a fairly significant dent
to the head. The bodyguard mentions in his tellings that, to his knowledge,
she still carries that scar to this day.
Of course, such a wound is simple to heal completely using Culture-level
tech. That this wasn't done almost immediately signifies to me that the
girl did not want such treatment, prefering to keep the wound as some sort
of reminder about the episode. This is perfectly acceptable behaviour
within the Culture, and I have a feeling it has been encountered before
in other Culture books, but I can't quite think of a specific instance at
the moment.
If the girl then goes on to enter Contact or SC, I would think that such
a reminder would become even more valued, especially given the nature of
the lesson about trust associated with the waterfall incident. Therefore,
I find it quite reasonable to expect the scar to still be present.
However, no mention of such a scar on the doctor's head is made in the
book. Her servant would most surely have remarked on such a scar on her
otherwise unblemished body. During the torture chamber scenes he has a
more than revealing look of the doctor with a shaven head.
---JvdL---
bryan burford
>
> He's just being very, very British. . .
> >>
>
> Americans.
>
> Zebidee
I'd advocate the use of *humour* in irony or sarcasm. Sorry GA but it
just wasn't funny.
Bryan
Robin Cooper
wrote:
>On Sat, 19 Dec 1998 22:57:38 +0000, keith waddell
><ke...@espedairst.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I've read all this thread so far, and without meaning offence to any of the
>>contributors, I really can't see what there is to argue about.
>>Inversions is undoubtably, obviously, indisputably a "Culture" novel. Just
>>because the Culture is never mentioned by name; or there are no
>>hundred-kilometre ships with quirky names; and no floating suitcases that talk
>>back to you (thank god!) doesn't make it any less a part of the Culture series.
>>I think it is typically Banks - to follow a high-tech, space opera novel
>>(Excession), with a human-focused, low-tech novel like Inversions. Just as he
>>followed the "big, cuddly family book" that was The Crow Road with the bleak,
>>psychotic Complicity.
>
>SPOILERS of course, for INVERSIONS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>(And, gee whiz, the cover of _Invsersions_ depicts a knife missile.
>Cool, eh?)
I'm looking at it right now (UK Hardback) and all I see is sunset
through a gate, with a figure standing beneath the arch. The Back has
bits of a palace. If you mean the three-bladed thing up close; I think
that could just as easily be a pike/halberd of some kind.
Robin.
Rich Horton
Could be, of course, but given the importance of the Doctor's dagger
to the novel, the constant mention of it, and its description (jewels
around the hilt), what else would it make sense to be?
Gerald Pfeifer
<st...@kitmaster.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
}Well, all I can say is that I'm really glad I posted the original question!
}It has certainly opened up a lot of areas for discussion both in and out of
}this group. It also gives me a pretty good idea how about the dynamics of
}this group work....think I'll stay on if it's all the same to you guys!
}Cheers, Steve.
It was hardly typical!!
This thread is just getting silly now - next time I'll just keep my
mouth shut - I'd hate to vanquish whatever humour actually makes it to
this group! It is amusing to follow on afterwards though, and still
see people fail to understand it even after an explanation....
A merry Christmas to everyone on alt.books.iain-banks
-Gezz
Rich Horton
On 21 Dec 1998 01:10:35 GMT, jva...@cs.auckland.ac.nz (Jarno Van Der
Linden) wrote:
>However, no mention of such a scar on the doctor's head is made in the
>book. Her servant would most surely have remarked on such a scar on her
>otherwise unblemished body. During the torture chamber scenes he has a
>more than revealing look of the doctor with a shaven head.
From the torture scene: "Ralinge ran his hand over the Doctor's head,
and at one place, over her left ear, his hands stopped and he looked
more closely, ..." (p. 300 of the Orbit edition)
Certainly this isn't proof, but it is suggestive.
Jussi Jaatinen
Rich Horton wrote:
> >>>I've read all this thread so far, and without meaning offence to any of the
> >>>contributors, I really can't see what there is to argue about.
> >>>Inversions is undoubtably, obviously, indisputably a "Culture" novel.
Spoilers:
At least I (I'm only around page 100 yet) can't resist thinking
Inversions is "Culture". There are several points:
1) In the "A Note on the Text" part before the Prologue the writer
states the Doctor was "From another Culture". I could not help speculate
Banks capitalized all nouns in that short text only to be able to
capitalize "culture" as well and thus be totally honest. (this is a bit
of a stretch, admitted)
2) The Doctor's assistant describes her physical being - no bad teeth,
tall, strong, "flawless", and she carries herself in a strangely assured
way which reminded me of how Gurgeh noted in "Player of Games" how
another player carried himself "like someone from the Culture". Also the
assistant has a feeling the Doctor doesn't "really" believe in male
preeminence and the Doctor also has some difficulty relating to the King
as a figure of authority.
3) DeWar's story of "Lavishia" where everyone is as rich as they want,
as beautiful as they want etc. sounds a lot like the Culture, and the
debate of whether or not to intervene with genuinely poor people they
meet reminds you of the debate in "The State of the Art" on whether or
not it is beneficial for the contactee to be contacted by the Culture or
not.
4) The Doctor tells Oelph she used to argue with "a friend" on whether
or not "the might beyond might had a right to impose it values on others
... We argued about here, for one thing." -"Here, mistress?" - "Here,
Haspide, the whole Empire". The dagger, she sais, is "a gift from ...
the state".
It would seen the Doctor and Dewar had a disagreement on whether or not
the Empire should have been contacted by the Culture and consulted with
a Mind. Then they came to some kind of agreement. (I haven't finished
the book yet so I don't know for sure if this is a plausible theory)
Of course, this may also mean that the Doctor and DeWar are from another
part of the planet, a society already industrialized etc. but it would
seem implausible the Empire would not have been aware of this society.
(unless the information was withheld by the Emperor)
(I seem to recall I had more than four points on this but I can't
remember any more...)
Merry christmas...
-JJ
Runcible
Rich Horton wrote:
> >>>I've read all this thread so far, and without meaning offence to any of
the
> >>>contributors, I really can't see what there is to argue about.
> >>>Inversions is undoubtably, obviously, indisputably a "Culture" novel.
To my surprise, in the two Inversions is a Culture Novel threads I have had
the privilege to read since discovering this group, no-one IIRC has
mentioned the title in their arguments.
When debating the Culture Novel question with myself and, later, once they
had read it, my friends, the title has always been one of my strongest
arguments.
"Inversions," a look at the same type of SC work we have heard about in the
past, but this time from the side of those who are the meddlees.
"Inversions," an outside-in look at SC, a view of their work from the POV of
the backward primitives who the Culture is changing for the better.
Its not just me, right?
Loznik
suggested:
Goodness, what a lively imagination you have. :-)
Seriously, no argument here.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Loznik {:-)>