Player of Games Happy Ending? <BIG TIME SPOILER WARNING>
RTR
Yes, the following contains spoilers which can ruin TPOG if you've never
read it. Consider yourself warned.
obligatory
wasted
line
feeds
Okay. I've just re-read Player of Games, and in light of this reading
and some recent comments I've seen here wanted to ask if anyone else
shared some of my impressions.
First the story really is a bit of a downer in the end, Gurgeh seems to
have been emotionally devastated by the whole affair; horribly used in
fact. Mawhrin-Ske/Flere-Imsaho seems to be the only one happy. Someone
else here posted that they felt Gurgeh's loss profoundly, and couldn't
see even the fact that this bestial empire had self-destructed as a
'good' ending at all (I'm paraphrasing; sorry to whomever's comments I'm
butchering.)
On a second reading though, I can't help but find some glimmers of an
indication that what happened may in fact have been very GOOD for
Gurgeh. This is what I wanted to discuss, to see if anyone else found
the same hints. (Yes, Iain, I'm probably reading too much into your
work. Deal with it. Good books do that to people. :D )
1. Consider Gurgeh's sexual behavior before he went to Azad. He was
essentially a predator. Not in the sense that he'd rape anyone, but he
definitely approached all his women as potential conquests...game pieces
to be manipulated into capture, not *people* with whom he wanted to
share something. Rho's nightmare and departure after he got her into
bed is indicative of this, as is Gurgeh's own musings that many of his
past lovers have chosen to become male afterward (subconsciously
deciding to become more an agressor-image themselves rather than be
percieved as vulnerable?). I know that the Culture is not very
male-centric like our 'culture' (by which I mean the West in general, as
I'm an idiot merkin and many of you ain't) but in the case of TPOG it is
a male character doing the 'dominating' if only from a psychological
standpoint.
Yay resisted him -- for exactly those reasons, because she was herself a
strong enough character that she wanted an equal (and/or a conquest in
which she could be the pursuer, not just the pursued)?. Yet after his
return from Azad, she did sleep with him, and it was described more
tenderly, as a consummation rather than a conquest (by either party). I
don't see her as the type to offer a 'pity-fuck', so that instead says
to me that her acquiescence after so long would be in recognition that
he'd changed? That he'd seen where his own behavior -- treating people
as objects or pieces to be manipulated -- lead in its philosophical
extremes to the social structure of Azad? And recognizing that
'kinship' he had decided to repudiate it; he now understood what he'd
been lacking all his life, a willingness to experience other people as
individuals rather than obstacles or puzzles to be defeated? Although
it came about via immense struggle and hardship, I see Gurgeh's journey
as one ending in a character-changing epiphany. The epiphany itself is
painful, and leaves him raw and vulnerable, but I see a chance for him
to grow and become happy that he didn't seem to have before.
2. Consider that the Minds do *use* people (and even other Minds and
drones) if they need to (and did admittedly 'trick' Gurgeh into getting
way over what he expected, fed him information in dribbles only as it
became necessary to goad him further, concealing their real intent from
him all along), but they also do seem to care intimately what happens to
each individual in the Culture. Therefore even when they 'use' someone
for their particular talents, take advantage of their particular flaws,
don't they also do so in the hopes of providing them a particular means
of growth and/or improvement thereof? Azad was after all the most
incredible game Gurgeh ever experienced, a true challenge that rose to
the level of actually interesting him when he was dangerously poised on
the brink of ennui (that's why I think he agreed to Mawhrin's offer to
cheat...because nothing was new or challenging enough to merit working
for, even the Full Web). It just turns out that the challenge also
required him to learn the Azahdian language -- which resulted in a
psychological paradigm-shift for him, as the drone indicated, due to its
inbuilt assumptions of hierarchicalization and dominance -- and
experience the Azadian society, and thus gave him the key to recognize
the character flaws that left him feeling dissatisfied with his life?
Note that in the end Flere does indicate tha they'd 'waited for him for
a long time'. He was considered probably the best general game-player
in the culture. But was he? He himself knew that there were others
that could beat him in specific games, and the young girl against whom
he cheated appears to be growing into a much better player than he.
Could they not have waited a decade or two for her to mature (as a
female, she'd be even more a slap in the face to the Apices than Gurgeh
as a male)? They had been sitting on the whole situation 70 years
already.
I don't think so...not because of her gaming ability, but because of her
temparament. [Timing probably had something to do with it too...the
Minds having assessed that Nicosar's ascention to the throne without a
true victory over his predecessor made him unstable enough
confidence-wise that now was the time to push.] She would *not* have
the personality to survive seeing Azad up close: to have to embrace the
'demons' in order to compete and then -- recognizing them as a mirror of
her own flaws -- be able to reject them afterward. I saw her as an
'empathic' gameplayer. Where Gurgeh saw flaws and patterns that could
be exploited (certainly a kind of 'empathy' to recognize an opponent's
intent) she actually put herself in the other player's place
emotionally, and used that to direct her moves. [I know that's a
stretch from a few brief scenes with her, but that was my impression.]
That would have destroyed her on Azad. So again to me the details point
to them needing Gurgeh specifically...not just because of his
gamesmanship, but also because of his own innate (but not irrevocably
entrenched) cruelty. They thought they could use him and heal him at
the same time.
On first reading, I thought the drone (M-S/F-I) was horribly devious and
clever. But now, I see it as more of a cardboard supporting character.
It really doesn't change or grow any through the entire plot experience,
it just manipulates from the sidelines to achieve the desired result on
Azad. I'd bet even it didn't understand the Minds' second goal to help
Gurgeh himself. Gurgeh on the other hand, does learn, and I believe
change. And I think he's got some hopes of becoming a more satisfied,
happy Culturnik as a result.
Any comments?
RTR
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Sod Enfopol98
finger to keyboard on the Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:14:51 GMT. In doing so,
they felt we would all like to know:
>Hi all.
>
>Yes, the following contains spoilers which can ruin TPOG if you've never
>read it. Consider yourself warned.
>
<SNIPPING OF COPIOUS PROSE>
>Any comments?
>
It may be crucial to remember that, at heart, Gurgeh is a gambler as
opposed to a player of games. The problem in this is that he exists in
an environment in which this personality trait can never be fulfilled,
but it is further complicated by the virtue of the fact that no-one
within the Culture truly experiences risk. This means that Gurgeh has
no means by which to understand how destructive a trait it can be.
This would strike me as being the key reason why Gurgeh was chosen to
bring about the collapse of the Empire of Azad. As a gambler, he was
the only individual with the requisite skill at games and the correct
personality to succeed at Azad.
By using Gurgeh, the Minds also bring about a situation whereby Gurgeh
can fully understand that within himself that must be changed if he is
ever to truly belong within the Culture. The fall of the Empire merely
serves to re-enforce the fact that a perpetual gambler will ultimately
destroy themselves for their addiction. The empire had been engaged in
the destructive behaviour patterns associated with any addict,
eventually it all falls apart.
Gurgeh ends by failing to return to the playing of games, and this
would seem to suggest that the Minds succeeded in their objective. He
had come to understand the futility of taking such gambles, and
consequently he no longer feels the need to play games.
What takes do others have on this?
H&H.
David Navarro
>
> Hi all.
>
> Yes, the following contains spoilers which can ruin TPOG if you've never
> read it. Consider yourself warned.
[Excision]
> Any comments?
>
I never considered TPoG to end on a downer at all. I fully agree with
all your points, but they appeared obvious enough to me on first
reading.
--
___________________________________________________
David Navarro http://www.alcaudon.com
___________________________________________________
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
-Terry Pratchett
Simon J Grimshaw
> "RTR" <remski@flashDELETE_THIS_PART_IF_NOT_SPAM.net> decided to put
> finger to keyboard on the Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:14:51 GMT. In doing so,
> they felt we would all like to know:
>
> >
> >Yes, the following contains spoilers which can ruin TPOG if you've never
> >read it. Consider yourself warned.
> >
>
> >Any comments?
> >
>
> It may be crucial to remember that, at heart, Gurgeh is a gambler as
> opposed to a player of games. The problem in this is that he exists in
> an environment in which this personality trait can never be fulfilled,
> but it is further complicated by the virtue of the fact that no-one
> within the Culture truly experiences risk. This means that Gurgeh has
> no means by which to understand how destructive a trait it can be.
>
> This would strike me as being the key reason why Gurgeh was chosen to
> bring about the collapse of the Empire of Azad. As a gambler, he was
> the only individual with the requisite skill at games and the correct
> personality to succeed at Azad.
>
> By using Gurgeh, the Minds also bring about a situation whereby Gurgeh
> can fully understand that within himself that must be changed if he is
> ever to truly belong within the Culture. The fall of the Empire merely
> serves to re-enforce the fact that a perpetual gambler will ultimately
> destroy themselves for their addiction. The empire had been engaged in
> the destructive behaviour patterns associated with any addict,
> eventually it all falls apart.
>
> Gurgeh ends by failing to return to the playing of games, and this
> would seem to suggest that the Minds succeeded in their objective. He
> had come to understand the futility of taking such gambles, and
> consequently he no longer feels the need to play games.
>
> What takes do others have on this?
>
TPoG is one of my favourite Banks books, so despite not having read it
that recently I'm going to wade in anyway...
Gurgeh seemed to me to start the book having reached the peak of his
'profession' and be experiencing an "Is this all there is?" kind of feeling. He
seems very dissatisfied with his life, and makes a series of quite major
life-changing decisions (cheating in the game, calling Contact) in an attempt to
find something that he would consider a challenge. I agree with the lack of
risk in the Culture perhaps being his most major motivation - probably the
cheating thing was another attempt to inject some excitement into his life.
The point about his ex-lovers all changing sex has had me puzzled for a
bit; I initially thought it was some point about latent homosexuality on Gurgeh's
part, that he always chose women with masculine traits in their personality
(backed up by his attraction to Yay). But RTR's got a good point that maybe
it's because he's treating his women like game-pieces, and only being
interested in them as far as the trick of seducing them.
So then the Culture uses him as a piece in their game. Again I'd agree
that this is perhaps an effort to heal Gurgeh (or at least to give him what he
wants) by exposing him to the risk that he craves. Yet it was quite a
controlled risk for him; even when he accepts the bet of castration in the game,
he's made sure that the ship could displace him off planet. And yet this is when
he realises that his actions (when he wins the game and the bet) have caused
another person physical pain.
It does seem that Gurgeh's main lesson is that other people do have
feelings. Hence when he is returned to the Culture he is able to treat Yay as a
person, not simply as an object to be toyed with, and so she sleeps with him.
Another part of his healing I'd say was the way he was treated by the
Culture. His realisation at the end that he'd been used by them, and that they
seemed to have very little respect for him (that final moment where he asks the
drone whether or not it aimed the mirror field) would kind of remind him that the
Culture is larger than him; kind of a smack on the wrist to put him back in his
place.
Is the ending happy though? Well, the Culture got what they wanted on
Azad, and Gurgeh's a better person for his experiences... though I'd say the
message that the Culture was trying to give him was "It's a big bad world out
there, so be happy with what you've got where you are," rather than a desire to
heal him.
Just thinking about the game itself, with those little bio pieces that
randomly change from one thing to another; is Gurgeh's understanding of these
very life-like pieces a key to his understanding people?
Simon
Cubic Nose
motivation towards the end stemmed from the horrors he had viewed in the
inner-city areas and on the official channels was so far from what he had
experienced in the Culture that his opinions of Azad changed overnight and he
no longer cared whether they lived or died.
He experienced no discernible emotions when he shot the guy in the exoskeleton
(whose name I forget) despite having just started to befriend him, but when he
returned to his home he appeared more open with Yay and Chamlis than he had
before.
I don't know whether this was painfully obvious or just my interpretation,
maybe I'll re-read, but not for a while...
Guy Thompson
The Centre of the Internet can be found at:
http://members.aol.com/cubicnose/main.html
Matthew Stanfield
I think that I agree with most of what RTR had to say, perhaps not all,
but most of it anyway.
There is a further problem with the ending of PoG that has not been
mentioned and that is the apparent murder of Mawhrin-Skel. At the end of
the book we discover that the empty casing of our *favorite* anti-social
drone is returned to the Orbital. By the end of PoG we know, of course,
that Mawhrin-Skel has not been killed but it appears that it has been to
the characters in the book. Why is there no outcry? Why aren't they
disgusted, horrified, sick, etc. Mawhrin-Skel may an unpleasant,
manipulative, immature drone but it has citizenship and the right to live
- no one in the Culture has the right to take that away from it. This, for
me, is the weakest element of the book.
Any thoughts?
..matthew
P.S. Just how do you spell Mawhrin-Skel anyway?
RTR
drone even said it [sorry forgot his name at the mo']) that he had been
accepted back into SC and refitted. That's why there was no concern.
Oddly enough I find that drone (Mawhrin-Skel) to have been the most
'used' of all the characters. He *was* an overbearing, overeager, mean
little bastard who liked leaning on Gurgeh, liked 'baiting' Gurgeh in
his Flere-Imsaho identity. He probably thought the whole plan was to
use Gurgeh, never seeing the higher goal to teach Gurgeh himself
something.
Ah well, just my views, your mileage may vary. <g>
RTR
Matthew Stanfield <Matthew....@Dial.Pipex.com> wrote in message
news:3704B91B...@Dial.Pipex.com...
Matthew Stanfield
> No, I don't think they assumed he was murdered...they assumed (the other
> drone even said it [sorry forgot his name at the mo']) that he had been
> accepted back into SC and refitted. That's why there was no concern.
Oh really, I don't remember that - it may be time for a re-read already.
The other drone is something like Chamalk Ackney, can't be bothered to
look it up.
..matthew
Scott C. Beeler
> First the story really is a bit of a downer in the end, Gurgeh seems to
> have been emotionally devastated by the whole affair; horribly used in
> fact. Mawhrin-Ske/Flere-Imsaho seems to be the only one happy. Someone
> else here posted that they felt Gurgeh's loss profoundly, and couldn't
> see even the fact that this bestial empire had self-destructed as a
> 'good' ending at all (I'm paraphrasing; sorry to whomever's comments I'm
> butchering.)
[snipped]
> On first reading, I thought the drone (M-S/F-I) was horribly devious and
> clever. But now, I see it as more of a cardboard supporting character.
> It really doesn't change or grow any through the entire plot experience,
> it just manipulates from the sidelines to achieve the desired result on
> Azad. I'd bet even it didn't understand the Minds' second goal to help
> Gurgeh himself. Gurgeh on the other hand, does learn, and I believe
> change. And I think he's got some hopes of becoming a more satisfied,
> happy Culturnik as a result.
I largely agree with your post. I think that Gurgeh does change in a
way which will let him fit into the Culture better than he originally
does. I also think that it's a rather painful process for him:
getting so immersed in the game (and the Azadian culture), then
reinventing himself as a Culture-player-of-Azad, experiencing the
self-destruction of Nicosar and the game when confronted with that,
and IMO feeling a strong sense of loss at the collapse of the
game-society (despite knowing how awful the society is).
Gurgeh seems to start out as an oddball in the Culture: aggressive,
structured, in large part like an Azadian. In the final game with
Nicosar he sees that he can't win by imitating the Azadian style,
since he can't compete with Nicosar's ruthlessness in this way. So he
invents a Culture version of the Azadian game, and defeats Nicosar,
and I would say, finds his place in the Culture. He creates a niche
of a Culture that he can fit into, in the game, and in a big way in
life as well, since the game is just a model of life.
--
Scott Beeler scbe...@mindspring.com
Hunter
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Let's not forget that the narrotor reveals itself to be Mawhrin-Skel at
the very end, and that Mawhrin-S and Flere-Imsaho are in fact the same
entity. I think that Mawhrin-Skel's casing was sent back to Chiark with an
empty core to show that it had agreed to have its personality altered and
modified for a new drone model, not that it was "murdered." Besides, by the
end of the book, we, the readers, realize that that is true, even if the
other characters may think otherwise (which is never really specified).
I believe that Mawhrin-Skel-Flere-Imsaho duped them into thinking it
agreed to personality correction. However, by bringing Gurgeh's voice into
his camp, Mawhrin-Skel managed to acquire a position in SC and a new drone
body (as it's old one had been demilitarized). If you ask me, it changed
its name merely so that Gurgeh wouldn't recognize it.
How can I defend that assertion? Quite simply. Mawhrin-Skel could have
joined SC any time if it had agreed to personality correction. It needed
Gurgeh's [supposed] influence to enter the service "as is." The name change
must have caused confusion for a lot of readers; it was simply
Mawhrin-Skel's way of concealing itself.
Note: I once felt like Matthew Stanfield does, but upon reading TPoG a
second time, I've changed my mind. Feel free to badger and criticize my
opinions.
Ho:hum.
That's all.
Matthew Stanfield wrote in message <3704B91B...@Dial.Pipex.com>...
>...The Player of Games spoiler reminder...
>
>I think that I agree with most of what RTR had to say, perhaps not all,
>but most of it anyway.
>
>There is a further problem with the ending of PoG that has not been
>mentioned and that is the apparent murder of Mawhrin-Skel. At the end of
>the book we discover that the empty casing of our *favorite* anti-social
>drone is returned to the Orbital. By the end of PoG we know, of course,
>that Mawhrin-Skel has not been killed but it appears that it has been to
>the characters in the book. Why is there no outcry? Why aren't they
>disgusted, horrified, sick, etc. Mawhrin-Skel may an unpleasant,
>manipulative, immature drone but it has citizenship and the right to live
>- no one in the Culture has the right to take that away from it. This, for
>me, is the weakest element of the book.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>..matthew
>
>P.S. Just how do you spell Mawhrin-Skel anyway?
I think you got it right.
Hunter
extent by the Minds. I find it both compelling and disturbing, but very
likely as well. I retract my other message in this thread.
Hunter
RTR wrote in message ...
Scott Sisson
> Spoiler space
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> |
> How can I defend that assertion? Quite simply. Mawhrin-Skel could have
> joined SC any time if it had agreed to personality correction. It needed
> Gurgeh's [supposed] influence to enter the service "as is." The name change
> must have caused confusion for a lot of readers; it was simply
> Mawhrin-Skel's way of concealing itself.
i always got the impression that M-S was *always* in SC, and they were
just being cunningly manipulative of Gurgeh.
Simon J Grimshaw
on the Orbital was just to get Gurgeh into a position such that M-S could
blackmail him.
Si
Anne Purvis
<hun...@mail.ticon.net> wrote:
>It hadn't occured to me that Mawhrin-Skel could have been used to that
>extent by the Minds. I find it both compelling and disturbing, but very
>likely as well. I retract my other message in this thread.
I think I concluded that Mawhrin-Skel was part of the plot to
hook Gurgeh & that there was no question really of his needing a
personality change; it was simply playing a part that had long
been scripted.
Anne
Sod Enfopol98
keyboard on the Sun, 04 Apr 1999 03:18:54 GMT. In doing so, they felt
we would all like to know:
>Gurgeh seems to start out as an oddball in the Culture: aggressive,
>structured, in large part like an Azadian. In the final game with
>Nicosar he sees that he can't win by imitating the Azadian style,
>since he can't compete with Nicosar's ruthlessness in this way. So he
>invents a Culture version of the Azadian game, and defeats Nicosar,
>and I would say, finds his place in the Culture. He creates a niche
>of a Culture that he can fit into, in the game, and in a big way in
>life as well, since the game is just a model of life.
>
I was under the impression that whilst Gurgeh perceives of himself as
an Azadian, he is only ever truly Culture. The game allows him to
understand this by the time he has defeated Nicosar. If you look at
what is said with regards to playing style, Nicosar adopts the mould
of the empire because he can not help it. Gurgeh realises this and in
doing so comes to understand that his style has always been Culture.
He is slow to commit to attacks, preparing to give up territory rather
than sacrifice forces defending territory that cannot be held - in
fact, he has no real regard for territory. He is prepared to wait
before launching a massive counter-offensive that is almost
frightening its rapidity and effectiveness.
This definitely struck me as being comparable to the tactics ascribed
to the Culture in the epilogue of Consider Phlebas with regards to the
Culture-Idiran War. The same tactic also seems apparent in both Use of
Weapons and Excession.
Doktor
Matthew Stanfield
> This definitely struck me as being comparable to the tactics ascribed
> to the Culture in the epilogue of Consider Phlebas with regards to the
> Culture-Idiran War. The same tactic also seems apparent in both Use of
> Weapons and Excession.
It's definitely the tactic Zacalwe uses in the war that Special
Circumstances install him in, believing he will lose. Zac mucks things up
for SC by being such an inspired general and applying the said tactics -
winning what appears to be a no-win situation.
As a matter of interest the same tactics were employed by the allies
during WW2 in Europe. (I'm not familiar enough with the North African
campaign or Asian one to know if similar tactics were used there too).
..matthew
b.bu...@removethis.unn.ac.uk
Absolutely - 'Mawhrin-Skel' was just as much of a pretence as the shell
Flere-Imsaho wore on Azad, that's why it says in the epilogue something
along the lines of "perhaps if Gurgeh had examined more closely the
dimensions of the cavity in Mawhrin-Skel's shell...", i.e. it would be
the shape of Flere-Imsaho.
Bryan
Sod Enfopol98
Weapons...Multi-novel spoiler
Matthew Stanfield <Matthew....@Dial.Pipex.com> decided to put
finger to keyboard on the Tue, 06 Apr 1999 12:38:11 +0100. In doing
so, they felt we would all like to know:
>It's definitely the tactic Zacalwe uses in the war that Special
>Circumstances install him in, believing he will lose. Zac mucks things up
>for SC by being such an inspired general and applying the said tactics -
>winning what appears to be a no-win situation.
>As a matter of interest the same tactics were employed by the allies
>during WW2 in Europe. (I'm not familiar enough with the North African
>campaign or Asian one to know if similar tactics were used there too).
I believe that myself and others have commented that Consider Phlebas
can be read as analoguous to the current socio-political structure on
earth and the related internecine conflicts between its societies who
could be considered secular (the culture), and those who could be
considered fundamentalist (the idirans). So this doesn't really
surprise me, especially as someone once commented that science fiction
always revealed more about the time in which it was written than the
future to which it would pertain.
With regards to Consider Phlebas, i was always incapable of
considering whom the Homomda could be considered as representing. But
i am now of the opinion that they correlate with states such as Egypt.
Far older than those entities who represent the major players in the
geopolitical situation, similar to the fundamentalists in their ways
(accpeting that we tend to use fundamentalists to mean islamic
fundamentalists) but preaching moderation and seeking to maintain a
balance between the forces at play (after all, the Homomda and the
Idirans are both tri-pedal so share a commonality of history).
But returning to The Player of Games, i think that Mawhrin-Skel could
also be considered as representing Special Circumstances mentality. If
as it claims in another book (CP, i believe although possibly
Excession) that SC are the dirtiest, most underhand Minds in existence
and prepared to think the unthinkable, then they would have to have
the capacity to be the vilest fucks around - just like Mawhrin-Skel,
in fact.
By presenting Mawhrin-Skel as having been kicked out of SC, they
prevent Gurgeh from realising the full extent to which he is being
manipulated. If he were to have fore-knowledge he would not be as
effective, and M-Ss apparent expulsion form SC gives him the
impression that even Special Circumstances have principles.
We can reasonably assume that Mawhrin-Skel was always an SC operative
from the fact that he adimts to Gurgeh that he still has a whole
collection of Effector packages that even the Hub Minds wouldn't be
able to detect. Surely SC would not allow him to continue to possess
these if he had been expelled from their ranks?
It is also worth considering whether or not Gurgeh was actually
engineered for the Azadian operation. Whilst he is re-assured that he
was not, can this really be believed? After all, the dates do tally
(SC have been trying to do something about Azad for seventy years -
Gurgeh is just short of seventy) and it would also explain why the
Minds would feel such a specific duty of care towards him.
If they were responsible for having to engineer an individual for a
specific mission, resulting in him being very much a misfit within the
Culture, then surely they would also seek to rectify this harm for
when he has fulfilled his purpose?
Maybe Bora Horza Gobuchul was right when he suggested that the
machines were the real Culture, and that one day they would decide
they didn't need any of its humans...
Oh, and quick thought going back to Zakalwe:
SC does not know the truth with regards to Cheradnine at that point in
the novel, so it would be reasonable to infer that they did screw up
in placing him in that conflict. They do not know his full personal
history with regards to him in actuality being Ethliomel (the
Chairmaker) so can not know the extent to which he will go in order to
ensure victory - even in attempting to subsume history to his force of
will.
Sod Enfopol98
the Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:52:49 +1200. In doing so, they felt we would
all like to know:
>Interesting thought, but i dont believe that grugeh was engineered for the
>purpose of overcoming the azadian regime, for this reason:
>
>In Consider Phlebas the girl who liked to climb mountains (i forget the
>name) was always right about things, not because she was engineered for any
>special level of intuition, but because the odds worked out that way, thats
>part of the philosophy behind the culture, and even SC. The less control you
>exert over the population, and the more freedom u give for diversification,
>the more u find ppl like her, and gurgeh popping up.
>
I think you might be misinterpeting things a touch here. Yes, there
are Cultural Referers like Fal 'Ngeestra, but it says that she is one
of only about twenty - this in a population that must probably be
measured in the quadrillions. They are very much rarities.
But Gurgeh is also a social misfit, and it is this capacity that makes
him so suited for the mission on Azad. But it states in Excession - in
reference to the individual who is perenially shy - that social
misfits are almost a non-occurence within the Culture. Therefore you
require two extremely rare traits to come together at exactly the
right time. This is fortuitous to say the least.
Whilst the Minds may not normally interfere in the developmental
processes of an individual, SC is - in all probabilty - not above such
behaviour given what we know of their methodologies. We must also
consider why the Minds never offered to correct this obvious character
flaw, as they did for our friend in Excession.
If they had engineered Gurgeh for the purposes of playing Azad, then
they would have good reason not to correct a flaw they intend to take
advantage of. If they had not engineered Gurgeh, then not attempting
to correct this personality defect at the earliest possible juncture
would be atypical of the Culture who believe in interfering both
covertly and overtly when the statistics illustrate that it is in a
groups best interests.
It is for these reasons that we must seriously consider the
possibility of Gurgeh having been engineered for this specific
purpose.
Tim
purpose of overcoming the azadian regime, for this reason:
In Consider Phlebas the girl who liked to climb mountains (i forget the
name) was always right about things, not because she was engineered for any
special level of intuition, but because the odds worked out that way, thats
part of the philosophy behind the culture, and even SC. The less control you
exert over the population, and the more freedom u give for diversification,
the more u find ppl like her, and gurgeh popping up.
That he was totally and thoroughly maniupulated is beyond question however.
-Tim D
RTR
the 'charter' so to speak of the Minds regarding a Culture citizen.
They seem very big on free will and self-determination. They may
*trick* someone into going their way, but they'd never take the option
away from an individual before they had the ability to make a choice, as
would be required if they had pre-engineered Gurgeh. (Ironically
enough, I can imagine the Minds' prohibition of such activities being
less based on the 'rights' of a meat being than on the fact that it's
simply not an ... elegant ... solution. Nor does it allow them to use
their humongous intellects to play mind-games. Rather a cop-out,
really. :) )
If they had simply offered to 'cure' him of his misegynistic and
excessively domineering tendancies (part of what made him the game
player he was) he'd have told them to bugger off, and they would've.
But if they offer him an 'experience' that would potentially help him
deal with his feelings of ennui (and which they knew in the long run
could cure him of those same tendancies), then they've mislead him, but
he STILL has to say he made the decision to proceed. There's certainly
no shortage of people/drones/habitats etc. warning him that the minds of
SC are devious sunsabitches, and that if he agrees to go ahead it's more
than likely he doesn't know the full extent of what he's agreed to.
Given those cases, I can't really see them taking the decision away from
him by having had him engineered prior to his birth for their purposes.
Besides, that would've been almost right after discovering Azad...a bit
too soon to come to that kind of a decision, don't you think? (Okay, it
could have been a 'contingency' but i still think that would seem to the
minds to be an excessive step to take.)
I consider Mahrwin-Skel's 'cover story' (that he'd been pulled from SC
due to 'excessive' tendancies) to be telling of a more believable
mindset. Although I think he was lying to manipulate Gurgeh, it rings
true that minds are engineered to a certain point (there's gotta be a
large difference in design and intended temprament between Orbital and
warship Minds) but beyond that initial engineering point, once they
achieve their initial self-awareness (birth?) their further development
is allowed to proceed as THEY direct, and WITHOUT INTERFERENCE. No one
will *force* them to alter who they are. They can be given a choice to
do so (as Mahrwin-Skel claimed, and the poor misfit was in Excession),
or be declined a posting by a sufficient majority for a sufficient
reason of unsuitability, but their right to self-determination was never
even in question.
For individuals NOT of the Culture (by birth? I'm not sure how exactly
membership is determined) I think there's a lot more leeway. i.e. C.Z.
in UoW was outright lied to and even openly worked *against* by other
S.C. operatives, not just cunningly misguided. Wasn't the diplomatic
attache in PoG -- forced to have his drug glands removed, or so he
reported at least -- also admitted by Flere-Imsaho to be a non-Culture
operative, again like C.Z. in UoW?
No, I think that Gurgeh really was the lucky fluke (or unlucky fuck)
they needed (and desired to help) in this case. I'm not *dismissing*
your argument outright, but I think I must certainly disagree with it.
:)
RTR
P.S. Thanks to all, I've enjoyed what's developed in this thread. :)
Sod Enfopol98 <flat...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:370bb19d...@news.freeuk.net...
Paul McConnon
person imaginable would develop. Minds requiring a person with a certain
set of attributes would only have to sieve them out.
There would probably be no need to engineer a specific set.
Infinite monkeys>Shakespeare etc.
Just a thought.
--
Mr P
"If electricity is produced by electrons,
is morality produced by morons?"
Matthew Stanfield
Professor RTR at The Institute of Banksian Studies has got it completely
sussed out. I agree absolutely with his argument on the subject of The
Player of Games, its 'happy ending' issue, the subject of Gurgeh's
manipulation and of Mind manipulation within SC in general.
If Ken was following this thread he might see what IB had to say on these
subjects next time they're having a beer or two? My guess is that IB would
be in agreement with Professor RTR.
> P.S. Thanks to all, I've enjoyed what's developed in this thread. :)
Certainly has been the most interesting thread for a while.
..matthew
--
##### # ### ---------------------------------------------+
##### ### ##### Matthew Stanfield |
##### ##### ##### mailto:Matthew....@Dial.Pipex.Com |
##### ####### ### ---------------------------------------------+
Sod Enfopol98
finger to keyboard on the Thu, 08 Apr 1999 03:20:46 GMT. In doing so,
they felt we would all like to know:
>No, I think that Gurgeh really was the lucky fluke (or unlucky fuck)
>they needed (and desired to help) in this case. I'm not *dismissing*
>your argument outright, but I think I must certainly disagree with it.
>:)
I can see your point but i think we'll have to agree to differ on this
one.
I've never been a great one for coincidence, and i just can't see
allowing this situation to be allowed to chance to fit the elegance
with which Minds like to handle a situation.
But fair enough... And whoever said it's been an entertaining thread
was definitely right ;-)
Hunter
Sod Enfopol98 wrote in message <370aa914...@news.freeuk.net>...
>Multi-novel spoiler....Player of Games....Consider Phlebas....Use of
>Weapons...Multi-novel spoiler
>I believe that myself and others have commented that Consider Phlebas
>can be read as analoguous to the current socio-political structure on
>earth and the related internecine conflicts between its societies who
>could be considered secular (the culture), and those who could be
>considered fundamentalist (the idirans). So this doesn't really
>surprise me, especially as someone once commented that science fiction
>always revealed more about the time in which it was written than the
>future to which it would pertain.
>
>With regards to Consider Phlebas, i was always incapable of
>considering whom the Homomda could be considered as representing. But
>i am now of the opinion that they correlate with states such as Egypt.
>Far older than those entities who represent the major players in the
>geopolitical situation, similar to the fundamentalists in their ways
>(accpeting that we tend to use fundamentalists to mean islamic
>fundamentalists) but preaching moderation and seeking to maintain a
>balance between the forces at play (after all, the Homomda and the
>Idirans are both tri-pedal so share a commonality of history).
Which would make the Idirans something on the order of Libya or Iraq or
Iran, in which the military government exploits the dominant religion to
justify expansion, belligerence, or plain old nationalism. This can also be
extended to include the fact that like the Homomda to the Idirans, Egypt
acts often acts as a wiser older sibling in dealing with these upstarts,
because although it considers them allies in the sense of race and / or
religion or outlook on life, it disapproves of their methods (I am naturally
speaking about the [currently] secular government of Egypt, not the
insurgent fundamentalist elements).
It is also worth pointing out that there is no true parallel to the Culture
in our world. Neither the U.S. nor Communist China nor the U.S.S.R. nor
Western European social-democracies exactly fit the model. When describing
the Culture novels, Banks pointed out that the Culture's
moral-social-economic system can only be achieved at a certain level of
technological development, which we have not yet achieved. Space travel
forces citizens to rely on one another, and AIs are far more qualified to
make important decisions regarding carbon-based cytoplasm heaps than the
heaps themselves. "But what about SC? They don't seem to have the humans'
best interests in mind!" Well, maybe that's exactly what the SC Minds would
like you to think. And we are still a long way away from achieving the
Culture's detached yet sensitive universe-outlook, which seems nihilistic
but actually drives the Culture's need to "feel useful." I should point out
that I am almost quoting Banks verbatim; I refer you to the document "A Few
Notes on the Culture" by Iain M. Banks, which can be found at
http://members.xoom.com/TheCulture/ . Thank you
RTR
Methinks I'm being mocked. Me, a Mind in the flesh, being considered a
mere learned meat-brain. Bah!
:)
RTR
Matthew Stanfield <Matthew....@Dial.Pipex.com> wrote in message
news:370CDC9A...@Dial.Pipex.com...
>
> Professor RTR at The Institute of Banksian Studies has got it
completely
> sussed out. I agree absolutely with his argument on the subject of The
> Player of Games, its 'happy ending' issue, the subject of Gurgeh's
> manipulation and of Mind manipulation within SC in general.
>
> If Ken was following this thread he might see what IB had to say on
these
> subjects next time they're having a beer or two? My guess is that IB
would
> be in agreement with Professor RTR.
>
> > P.S. Thanks to all, I've enjoyed what's developed in this thread. :)
>