Use of Weapons (spoilers)
Rob G
I've posted before about Use of Weapons, as it's one of my favourite books
(by IB or otherwise) but there is one part of it about which I remain
unresolved.
Does Cheradenine/Elethiomel die at the end?
It seems to me that the epilogue/prologue bit with Cullen could be placed
chronologically after the said revelation, both due to its place in the
book, and the fact that he's bald for it. This suggests to me that he
survives. However, if he does die, it would be an elegant explanation of why
Sma transfers her attention to Escoerea (a soldier, but also a victim of
Zakalwe's war, whose redemption she sees as some gesture towards Zakalwe -
be it forgiveness or revenge).
Is there an official or accepted line on this? It's the one bit that I'm not
sure about (I still stand by my view that Skaffen Amtiskaw *was*
impersonating Zakalwe - but that's another story :-)).
Any views?
Rob
--
_________________________________
Robert P L Greenberg
Keble College
Oxford
OX1 3PG
07714 618575
robert.g...@keble.ox.ac.uk
Rob G
I meant Cullis not Cullen. doh.
Richard Horton
On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:11:49 +0100, "Rob G"
<robert.g...@keble.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
[USE OF WEAPONS SPOILERS]
>Does Cheradenine/Elethiomel die at the end?
No. Absolutely not.
>It seems to me that the epilogue/prologue bit with Cullen could be placed
>chronologically after the said revelation, both due to its place in the
>book, and the fact that he's bald for it. This suggests to me that he
>survives.
I strongly believe that the prologue/epilogue are after the main
action of the book. Frankly, I think any other reading is very
strained.
It's important to a central theme of the book:
Cheradenine/Elethiomel's inablity to grow.
>However, if he does die, it would be an elegant explanation of why
>Sma transfers her attention to Escoerea (a soldier, but also a victim of
>Zakalwe's war, whose redemption she sees as some gesture towards Zakalwe -
>be it forgiveness or revenge).
He's a victim of SC's war, let's not be letting them duck the blame.
I believe she transfers her attention because Zakalwe has quit SC
again. She needs a replacement. SC needs another weapon.
The view of SC in this book is, it seems to me, profoundly cynical.
And good on it for that!
--
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
Tom
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>I've posted before about Use of Weapons, as it's one of my favourite books
>(by IB or otherwise) but there is one part of it about which I remain
>unresolved.
I don't think so, although maybe his personality dies with him, he didn't
seem to be able to handle being rejected by Livvy, he would probably come
out of it a broken man...
>It seems to me that the epilogue/prologue bit with Cullen could be placed
>chronologically after the said revelation, both due to its place in the
>book, and the fact that he's bald for it. This suggests to me that he
>survives. However, if he does die, it would be an elegant explanation of
why
>Sma transfers her attention to Escoerea (a soldier, but also a victim of
>Zakalwe's war, whose redemption she sees as some gesture towards Zakalwe -
>be it forgiveness or revenge).
>Is there an official or accepted line on this? It's the one bit that I'm
not
>sure about (I still stand by my view that Skaffen Amtiskaw *was*
>impersonating Zakalwe - but that's another story :-)).
Where do you think that Skaffen Amtiskaw was impersonating Zakalwe? Am I
missing something? Bearing in mind that I've only read it once...
Tom
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
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> I've posted before about Use of Weapons, as it's one of my favourite books
> (by IB or otherwise) but there is one part of it about which I remain
> unresolved.
> Does Cheradenine/Elethiomel die at the end?
I don't think so.
> It seems to me that the epilogue/prologue bit with Cullen could be placed
> chronologically after the said revelation, both due to its place in the
> book, and the fact that he's bald for it. This suggests to me that he
> survives. However, if he does die, it would be an elegant explanation of why
> Sma transfers her attention to Escoerea (a soldier, but also a victim of
> Zakalwe's war, whose redemption she sees as some gesture towards Zakalwe -
> be it forgiveness or revenge).
I think the whole point about Zakalwe - well, among other things - is
that he is locked without hope in his life. That's why Banks makes him
always young - makes him choose eternal youth. He goes on and on an on,
in circles, like the book. Only Sma can break free. And I don't think
anybody, least of all himself, can forgive or avenge Zakalwe.
> Is there an official or accepted line on this? It's the one bit that I'm not
> sure about (I still stand by my view that Skaffen Amtiskaw *was*
> impersonating Zakalwe - but that's another story :-)).
What? Where?
--
ada...@nit.it
sostituire tin a nit per scrivermi/substitute tin to nit to mail me
http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
tonyC
8ddi98$1iis$1@newssvr03-
int.news.prodigy.com>,
Richard Horton <
rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Apr 2000 23:11:49 +0100, "Rob G"
> <robert.g...@keble.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> [USE OF WEAPONS SPOILERS]
>
>
>
> >It seems to me that the epilogue/prologue bit with Cullen could be placed
> >chronologically after the said revelation, both due to its place in the
> >book, and the fact that he's bald for it. This suggests to me that he
> >survives.
>
> action of the book.
Absolutely! It *is* primarily an
epilogue, tho having accepted
that, one can't help but note it
can also be interpreted
symbolically as prologue in that
it reflects "business as usual" for
the Culture/SC--it's a bit cold,
but... agents are "lost", new ones
are found, yet despite emotional
attachments, the "work" always
must go on.
>Frankly, I think any other
>reading is very
> strained.
>
> It's important to a central theme of the book:
> Cheradenine/Elethiomel's inablity to grow.
Yes, but I'd say it's not so much
inability to grow as his total and
complete breakdown--he is
totally burnt out from both his
past, and his job...and still, more
than a little insane!
>
> >However, if he does die, it would be an elegant explanation of why
> >Sma transfers her attention to Escoerea (a soldier, but also a victim of
> >Zakalwe's war, whose redemption she sees as some gesture towards Zakalwe -
> >be it forgiveness or revenge).
>
> He's a victim of SC's war, let's not be letting them duck the blame.
> I believe she transfers her attention because Zakalwe has quit SC
> again. She needs a replacement. SC needs another weapon.
>
> The view of SC in this book is, it seems to me, profoundly cynical.
> And good on it for that!
>
I definitely agree! One usually
becomes cynical about the
Culture/SC, but here even more
so when we see human
"weapons" can be used and then
discarded so easily.
> --
> Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
> Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
> Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)
>
....tonyC
Ad astra per aspera.
----------------------
No unsolicited mail please
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
RTR
> I definitely agree! One usually
> becomes cynical about the
> Culture/SC, but here even more
> so when we see human
> "weapons" can be used and then
> discarded so easily.
>
I found this to be a central tenet of the book...the title refers to not
only "Zak"'s nearly preternatural ability to strike at the very heart of
his opponents using any tools at hand -- his innate "Use of Weapons" --
but also to Special Circumstances' own "Use of Weapons" in finding,
training, and deploying individuals with the same devastating capability
on both those the weapons are directed at and at those bearing them. I
thought Sma herself seemed psychologically wounded by her own handling
of "Zak".
Oddly enough, since SC is unaware of "Zak"'s past, their "Use of
Weapons" is actually less accurate than his own, evidenced by the fact
that he many times surprised them by being more or less successful than
they calculated he should be (since their calculations were based on a
false premise). e.g. the war he wasn't supposed to "win" toward the
end. They also couldn't/didn't anticipate his reaction to being told to
give up the fight, and in fact likely contributed heavily to his
breakdown, by not knowing of his past (mis)deeds.
RTR, rather tediously rambling
Sorcha
<spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
It also says somewhat about the perils inherant in the 'Use of Weapons'
- they can work like you expected, work beyond your expectations, not
work at all or work, but in an entirely different manner than you
expected, especially when you aren't entirely sure of the capabilityies
and limitations of the weapon to hand. This would be something more
obvious when you attempt to use a human as a weapon, the way SC uses
Zakalwe. A situation like this could be one of the areas of SC's dubious
moral ground, which the rest of the Culture is not entirely sure of.
Especially as SC really doesn't seem to have any way of controlling Zak
or knowing the outcome of a situation once Zakalwe has been dropped into
the equation. I can't think of the correct term (not a catalyst) for
something you add to chemicals that precipitates a reaction, but it
seems to describe Zakalwe's effect on a war situation. He can change the
course of events in a radical manner, but the problem is that he doesn't
always react in the manner that SC expects.
Another random thought - its rather surprising that SC *doesn't* seem to
be able to predict the effect of Zakalwe on a situation. We know
something about the processing power and abilities of the Minds from
'Excession' and I would have thought that they would be able to pretty
closely model the behaviour of a human known to them and anticipate at
least some of their reactions to a given situation. Maybe its a
combination of too many external factors and the heightened pace of
events in a war for the minds to model a situation accurately, but SC
would surely include the fastest and most devious Minds in the Culture
and if they can't anticipate it... Zakalwe seems to be somewhat similar
to Fal from 'Consider Phlebas' in this association with randomness.
Although, Fal's talent was to make intuitive leaps, making sense of
random information, and Zakalwe is the other way around - he seems to
create randomness out of an orderly situation.
Sorcha
--
"There's no such thing as autobiography, there's only art and lies."
Jeanette Winterson
Chris Lynas
--
Chris Lynas
--
http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
Sorcha <su...@esatclear.ie> wrote in message
news:MPG.1365873b1...@news.esatclear.ie...
> RTR wrote...
> <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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<snippage>
>
> Another random thought - its rather surprising that SC *doesn't* seem to
> be able to predict the effect of Zakalwe on a situation. We know
> something about the processing power and abilities of the Minds from
> 'Excession' and I would have thought that they would be able to pretty
> closely model the behaviour of a human known to them and anticipate at
> least some of their reactions to a given situation. Maybe its a
> combination of too many external factors and the heightened pace of
> events in a war for the minds to model a situation accurately, but SC
> would surely include the fastest and most devious Minds in the Culture
> and if they can't anticipate it... Zakalwe seems to be somewhat similar
> to Fal from 'Consider Phlebas' in this association with randomness.
> Although, Fal's talent was to make intuitive leaps, making sense of
> random information, and Zakalwe is the other way around - he seems to
> create randomness out of an orderly situation.
>
That might be due to the Minds thinking that he's someone who he isn't.
Minds won't look inside his head to see what makes him tick, it's possible
that all of their predictions of how he'll act are based on the false idea
that he is who he says he is. But it's almost certain that he is, as you
suggest, just able to do better than might be expected, like Fal N'Geestra
(or whatever :)
Matthew Stanfield
> the equation. I can't think of the correct term (not a catalyst) for
> something you add to chemicals that precipitates a reaction, but it
Initiator: To cause or facilitate the beginning of : set going <initiate
a program of reform> <enzymes that initiate fermentation>.
..matthew
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> RTR wrote...
> <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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a lot of things I agree with
> > Oddly enough, since SC is unaware of "Zak"'s past, their "Use of
> > Weapons" is actually less accurate than his own,
> >
>
> It also says somewhat about the perils inherant in the 'Use of Weapons'
> - they can work like you expected, work beyond your expectations, not
> work at all or work, but in an entirely different manner than you
> expected, especially when you aren't entirely sure of the capabilityies
> and limitations of the weapon to hand. This would be something more
> obvious when you attempt to use a human as a weapon, the way SC uses
> Zakalwe.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that Elethiomel _lost_ his own war
against Zakalwe, in the end.
Steve Brooks
Chris Lynas <ch...@excession.swinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8dh5rp$nqn$1...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
>
> --
> Chris Lynas
> --
> http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
> http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
> ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
>
> Sorcha <su...@esatclear.ie> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1365873b1...@news.esatclear.ie...
> > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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> > Another random thought - its rather surprising that SC *doesn't* seem to
> > be able to predict the effect of Zakalwe on a situation. We know
> > something about the processing power and abilities of the Minds from
> > 'Excession' and I would have thought that they would be able to pretty
> > closely model the behaviour of a human known to them and anticipate at
> > least some of their reactions to a given situation. Maybe its a
> > combination of too many external factors and the heightened pace of
> > events in a war for the minds to model a situation accurately, but SC
> > would surely include the fastest and most devious Minds in the Culture
> > and if they can't anticipate it... Zakalwe seems to be somewhat similar
> > to Fal from 'Consider Phlebas' in this association with randomness.
> > Although, Fal's talent was to make intuitive leaps, making sense of
> > random information, and Zakalwe is the other way around - he seems to
> > create randomness out of an orderly situation.
> >
> That might be due to the Minds thinking that he's someone who he isn't.
> Minds won't look inside his head to see what makes him tick, it's possible
> that all of their predictions of how he'll act are based on the false idea
> that he is who he says he is. But it's almost certain that he is, as you
> suggest, just able to do better than might be expected, like Fal N'Geestra
> (or whatever :)
>
be capable of looking inside Z's head? Telepathy is not something I've ever
read into descriptions of minds' capabilities.
SB
Rob G
> > > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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> > <snippage>
> >
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> > > Another random thought - its rather surprising that SC *doesn't* seem
to
> > > be able to predict the effect of Zakalwe on a situation.
snip
> >
> 'Minds won't look inside his head...'.. Are you saying that minds would
> be capable of looking inside Z's head? Telepathy is not something I've
ever
> read into descriptions of minds' capabilities.
>
> SB
>
>
The Grey Area, in Excession does - and further it is shunned by its fellows
for doing so. I believe that somewhere it suggests that Minds do not delve
through human brains out of principle - not out of inability.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> 'Minds won't look inside his head...'.. Are you saying that minds would
> be capable of looking inside Z's head? Telepathy is not something I've ever
> read into descriptions of minds' capabilities.
One word: Meatfucker
:-)
PD Macfarlane
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: a lot of things I agree with
: > > Oddly enough, since SC is unaware of "Zak"'s past, their "Use of
: > > Weapons" is actually less accurate than his own,
they apparently suck it dry of information and one would suppose that they
did the same thing upon encountering Z's planet. They should therefore
have known all about chips of bone in peoples bodies and what happened to
Z and E after their war. I allways thought that Z had topped himself
(although its been a long time since I read UoW) upon delivery of his new
chair.
Sma obviously does not know the full story, but SC arent prone to
spreading information around (re TPoG)
: : Let's not lose sight
of the
fact that Elethiomel _lost_ his own war : against Zakalwe, in the end.
: --
: sostituire tin a nit per scrivermi/substitute tin to nit to mail me
: http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
--
"But he had not brought anything. His hands were empty, as they had
always been." The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
Rob G
news:1e9a0z5.y2ikou1nxz5a8N@[151.25.12.41]...
> Sorcha <su...@esatclear.ie> wrote:
>
> > RTR wrote...
> > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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> a lot of things I agree with
>
> > > Oddly enough, since SC is unaware of "Zak"'s past, their "Use of
> > > Weapons" is actually less accurate than his own,
> > >
> >
> > - they can work like you expected, work beyond your expectations, not
> > work at all or work, but in an entirely different manner than you
> > expected, especially when you aren't entirely sure of the capabilityies
> > and limitations of the weapon to hand. This would be something more
> > obvious when you attempt to use a human as a weapon, the way SC uses
> > Zakalwe.
>
> against Zakalwe, in the end.
>
true - but this probably was in spite of his innovative and
brilliant/gruesome tactics rather than due to them. Cheradenine acknowledges
his surprise at his success in this war. Furtherly, SC were aware that Z was
capable of losing wars. On at least one occasion they seem to have sent him
to lose a war (when his army was scattered by bad weather - but they seemed
happy with the result). The general impression is of a martial genius, with
certain pyschological flaws and blind spots.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> "Anna Feruglio Dal Dan" <ada...@nit.it> wrote in message
> news:1e9a0z5.y2ikou1nxz5a8N@[151.25.12.41]...
> > Sorcha <su...@esatclear.ie> wrote:
> >
> > > RTR wrote...
> > > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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The general impression is of a martial genius, with
> certain pyschological flaws and blind spots.
A lot of martial geniuses end up, curiously enough, losing wars.
Alcibiades (through poltics). Hannibal. Napoleon. Being a military
genius is no guarantee of success...
This said, I don't remember what my point was (trying to be) and I'm too
depressed trying to translate a horrible, horrible, horrible novel about
Alcibiades, the most pompously worded, stylistically awful, narratively
dry reactionary piece of militaristic power-fantasy travesting as
historical novel that has come my way after a career translating sf
which does not in itself want for reactionary militaristic shit...
Meanwhile Inversions stays untranslated...
Gosh.
Matthew Stanfield
> Alcibiades (through poltics). Hannibal. Napoleon. Being a military
> genius is no guarantee of success...
Many historians say Napoleon only lost Waterloo because he was unwell at
the time.
..matthew
Jon
And others say it was because the veteran soldiers of his
successful campaigns died during the Moscow campaign. At the time of
Waterloo he had a very inexperienced army which only got beaten because of
the Prussians' timely arrival. If it hadn't been for Moscow, Napoleon
would probably have won at Waterloo, illness notwithstanding.
However, Napoleon was responsible for the Moscow debacle, so
perhaps he was culpable for the Waterloo defeat...
Matthew Stanfield
> > the time.
>
> And others say it was because the veteran soldiers of his
> successful campaigns died during the Moscow campaign. At the time of
> Waterloo he had a very inexperienced army which only got beaten because of
> the Prussians' timely arrival. If it hadn't been for Moscow, Napoleon
> would probably have won at Waterloo, illness notwithstanding.
>
> However, Napoleon was responsible for the Moscow debacle, so
> perhaps he was culpable for the Waterloo defeat...
Napoleon had obviously forgotten Winston Churchill's First Rule of
Warfare: "Never march on Moscow!" <grin>
..matthew
d0ktor
PD Macfarlane <pm5...@ncs.bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
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> :
> : a lot of things I agree with
> :
> : > > Oddly enough, since SC is unaware of "Zak"'s past, their "Use of
> : > > Weapons" is actually less accurate than his own,
> they apparently suck it dry of information and one would suppose that they
> did the same thing upon encountering Z's planet. They should therefore
> have known all about chips of bone in peoples bodies and what happened to
> Z and E after their war. I allways thought that Z had topped himself
> (although its been a long time since I read UoW) upon delivery of his new
> chair.
> Sma obviously does not know the full story, but SC arent prone to
> spreading information around (re TPoG)
Hmm. Well, SC didn't find Z on his home planet when they first encountered
him, and when they did finally visit it it was as they took Z there to meet
Livueta. The ship (I forget which it was) and Skaffen-Amtiskaw were in the
process of sorting incoming information during their visit and apparently
only found out about Z really being Elethiomel at around the time Z met with
L.
So unless the ship was lying, or not privy to that information, or just
didn't look further than it's own database, then this is not the case. It
seems odd that the ship would hide that information from Sma and S-A when it
must have been pretty obvious that Livueta would tell them anyway.
d0ktor
PD Macfarlane
Distribution:
:
: PD Macfarlane <pm5...@ncs.bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
:
:
:
d0ktor
It's been a while since I read it myself, but when I come to reply to
threads like these I always find my mind is packed full of plots, names and
details from the Culture books. And I swear my memory is normally terrible.
Weird.
d0ktor
xpl...@istar.ca
> :
> :
>
> --
>
> "But he had not brought anything. His hands were empty, as they had
> always been." The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
My reading was that SC knew E/Z was a fuck-up.
They sent him to help the side they wanted to lose.
Surely, if they had wanted E/Z's side to win, they would have sent more
resources.
Even more agents.
In my first (and only) reading, I looked at his missions, and 3 outta 4 had gone
badly wrong. And SC recruited him again and again. And in the other Culture
books, they know what they're doing. So assume, they want a trigger-happy guy to
fuck-up the cause he's backing.
Also, most of the information the reader gets is from E/Z's point of view and the
man turns out to be a maniac. He's so obsessed by the use of weapons, he misses
the clues, and draws no conclusions from his experiences. Ya, he feels bad after.
That's it. He thinks he's being used, but he doesn't question his mission. He
believes SC is evil and believes every word they tell him.
Doesn't t SC tell him not to contact his old mentor and he does it anyway?
I mean, they're planting seeds there....for a reason.
Of course, this reading could be skewed - I'm both paranoid and easily confused.
Andy.
Rob G
> > : > : > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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> > always been." The Dispossessed, Ursula K. Le Guin
>
> My reading was that SC knew E/Z was a fuck-up.
> They sent him to help the side they wanted to lose.
> Surely, if they had wanted E/Z's side to win, they would have sent more
> resources.
> Even more agents.
> In my first (and only) reading, I looked at his missions, and 3 outta 4
had gone
> badly wrong.
I don't think that we hear about all of his missions - on the basis of his
explanation about his age, he has been with the culture for well over eighty
years.
> And SC recruited him again and again. And in the other Culture
> books, they know what they're doing. So assume, they want a trigger-happy
guy to
> fuck-up the cause he's backing.
it's a sort of compelling view - but surely there is little doubt that he is
a superb soldier. His efforts with the hegemonrchy bear witness to this and
skaffen amtiskaw expresses the opinion that the man has lost his touch after
fohls (when his head was cut off) - suggesting that he must have been quite
good in the first place.
Furtherly - if it is the case that SC know all about him, then they
certainly keep sma and skaffen amtiskaw in the dark (which is quite feasible
in the light of background knowledge of the culture and sc - but there is
really no hint in the book at such a labyrinthine conpsiracy IMO). The
xenophobe doesn't know about his home planet or his past either, and there
is no obvious hint that anyone but E/Z and Livueta does.
>
> Also, most of the information the reader gets is from E/Z's point of view
and the
> man turns out to be a maniac. He's so obsessed by the use of weapons, he
misses
> the clues, and draws no conclusions from his experiences. Ya, he feels bad
after.
> That's it. He thinks he's being used,
which he is
> but he doesn't question his mission. He
> believes SC is evil
not sure about this - he explains his feelings about the culture to ethnarch
kerian quite early on
>and believes every word they tell him.
>
> Doesn't t SC tell him not to contact his old mentor and he does it anyway?
? sorry - you've lost me here. Do you mean Tsoldrin Beychae - I don't that
TB was his mentor - more an ally, they were both about the same age to
originally.
Scott Beeler
>Andy wrote:
>> > : > : > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
>> > : > : > >
>> > : > : > >
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>> They sent him to help the side they wanted to lose.
>> Surely, if they had wanted E/Z's side to win, they would have sent more
>> resources.
>> Even more agents.
>> In my first (and only) reading, I looked at his missions, and 3 outta 4
>> had gone badly wrong.
>
>I don't think that we hear about all of his missions - on the basis of his
>explanation about his age, he has been with the culture for well over eighty
>years.
Agreed, and I don't remember Zakalwe screwing up that many missions
out of his own ineptitude, other than the Winter Palace when he was
sort of in shock after Fohls. His final one seems to generally work,
even if it's a bit chaotic. One he got screwed by unpredictably
massive rains. He got the Chosen One across the desert all right. He
had to get rescued on Fohls and the caldera, but we only see the
aftermath of those, and not what caused them (on Fohls, IIRC he was
just on his way back after the mission when the plane he was on got
shot down).
>> And SC recruited him again and again. And in the other Culture
>> books, they know what they're doing. So assume, they want a trigger-happy
>> guy to fuck-up the cause he's backing.
>
>it's a sort of compelling view - but surely there is little doubt that he is
>a superb soldier. His efforts with the hegemonrchy bear witness to this and
>skaffen amtiskaw expresses the opinion that the man has lost his touch after
>fohls (when his head was cut off) - suggesting that he must have been quite
>good in the first place.
Agreed.
>Furtherly - if it is the case that SC know all about him, then they
>certainly keep sma and skaffen amtiskaw in the dark (which is quite feasible
>in the light of background knowledge of the culture and sc - but there is
>really no hint in the book at such a labyrinthine conpsiracy IMO). The
>xenophobe doesn't know about his home planet or his past either, and there
>is no obvious hint that anyone but E/Z and Livueta does.
Yes, it's *possible* that there was an earlier contact with and study
of his planet and him which was kept from SC in general and Sma, S-A,
and Xenophobe in particular, but that seems excessively comspiracist
(and risky, withholding *very* important information from his
handlers).
>> but he doesn't question his mission. He
>> believes SC is evil
>
>not sure about this - he explains his feelings about the culture to ethnarch
>kerian quite early on
Yes. He thinks they are on the right side but their methods and
attitudes are a bit too "soft" and "nice". Also see his GSV tour and
questioning of Sma after he's first recruited.
>> Doesn't t SC tell him not to contact his old mentor and he does it anyway?
>
>? sorry - you've lost me here. Do you mean Tsoldrin Beychae - I don't that
>TB was his mentor - more an ally, they were both about the same age to
>originally.
Also, SC rerecruits him specifically to get in touch with Beychae.
Zakalwe has a rapport with Beychae that is invaluable in getting him
back on the Culture-supported side, which is why they badly needed to
find Z after he fried the knife missile and went off on his own. (And
in fact the plan works; Beychae does go they way they want him to.)
Zakalwe and Sma disagree on the methods to use in this, but he does
stick to her overall scheme.
--
Scott Beeler scbe...@mindspring.com
xpl...@istar.ca
Scott Beeler wrote:
Rob Greenberg & Scott Beeler
I think you two have been very kind and polite to someone with a fuzzy mind.
Of course, you're right about the Beychae mission.
You've made me doubt my assumption, and start to reread the book.
(Didn't share the ng's high opinion of UoW first time - but that's starting to
change -
Dizzy is well-written, light touch).
But I'm still clinging to some kind of last desperate gasp of hope -
the first chapter of the novel shows Zak getting his ass/castle kicked.
And he loses his head in another situation.
page 151 of the Orbit trade edition (An Outing, end of chapter 6)
Culture demotes him and strips him of several medals....
Good Soldier Vll - people in castle with him all die. Mission fails.
Zak still comes off as a trigger happy idiot (literally in that 'shooting at
live targets' incident (An Outing, Ch. 6)...not the man you'd choose for
anything serious.
His need for autonomy is too strong to make him a trustworthy agent....
(I've read my leCarrÈ, y'know - Zak's wilder than any of leCarrÈ's reprobates)
That's it for now, I ran out of time to reread the book and really make this
point.
Perhaps another time when this thread pops up, I'll be the madman drooling...
but but but....even Beychae calls him a madman (seriously).
I guess I had a hard time thinking the Culture (Western democratic stand-in)
would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al. But of course, the West has
- since the Cold War - usually backed the 'benevolent' dictator over and over
again. Duh (on me).
So thanks for the debate but I've run out of time to give to it.
Nice debatin' with ya....you kept it at a high level. Outstanding.
Will try to get back to it, though....
Andy.
Chris Lynas
--
Chris Lynas
--
http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
<xpl...@istar.ca> wrote in message news:390D2647...@istar.ca...
Wasn't that the people who he was told to work for _by_ the Culture - I
don't think they hold with such things :)
> Good Soldier Vll - people in castle with him all die. Mission fails.
> Zak still comes off as a trigger happy idiot (literally in that 'shooting
at
> live targets' incident (An Outing, Ch. 6)...not the man you'd choose for
> anything serious.
> His need for autonomy is too strong to make him a trustworthy agent....
> (I've read my leCarrÈ, y'know - Zak's wilder than any of leCarrÈ's
reprobates)
I'll have to take your word for that, but I do take your point...
>
> That's it for now, I ran out of time to reread the book and really make
this
> point.
> Perhaps another time when this thread pops up, I'll be the madman
drooling...
> but but but....even Beychae calls him a madman (seriously).
>
> I guess I had a hard time thinking the Culture (Western democratic
stand-in)
> would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any current
political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
need to exist (and I think they still do?)
Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC will
use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the Culture
as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the best
interests of the Culture as a whole.
>But of course, the West has
> - since the Cold War - usually backed the 'benevolent' dictator over and
over
> again. Duh (on me).
Agreed. And usually royally screwed it up - bit like Zakalwe with the
Ethnarch Kerian
Simon J Grimshaw
>
>
> --
> Chris Lynas
> --
> http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
> http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
> ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
>
> <xpl...@istar.ca> wrote in message news:390D2647...@istar.ca...
> >
> stand-in)
> > would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
>
> They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
> of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any current
> political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
> since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
> need to exist (and I think they still do?)
>
> Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC will
> use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the Culture
> as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the best
> interests of the Culture as a whole.
Isn't that a little spooky? I was wondering how the people of the culture
feel about the decisions that are being made on their behalf by the minds of
SC. And what are the best interests of the Culture? Are they simply trying
to exist and "assimilate" (for want of a better word) other societies into
their benevolent circle, or are they aiming to sublime?
Denis Hackney
> <xpl...@istar.ca> wrote:
[spoilers for 'Use of Weapons']
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>> page 151 of the Orbit trade edition (An Outing, end of chapter 6)
>> Culture demotes him and strips him of several medals....
>
> Wasn't that the people who he was told to work for _by_ the Culture
> - I don't think they hold with such things :)
"In the ensuing peace, he was demoted, and stripped of several medals.
He left later that year, and the Culture didn't seem the least bit
displeased with how he'd done."
The army he was fighting for demoted him and stripped his medals, but
the Culture was very happy with his work.
Later,
Denis.
--
Denis Hackney - http://members.optusnet.com.au/~dhackney/
I was looking back to see if you were looking back at me
to see me looking back at you...
PD Macfarlane
: > Scott Beeler wrote:
: >
: > > "Rob G" <robert.g...@keble.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
: > > >Andy wrote:
: > > >> > : > : > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
: > > >> > : > : > >
: > > >> > : > : > >
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long snip: >
: > I guess I had a hard time thinking the Culture (Western democratic
: stand-in)
: > would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
:
: They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
: of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any current
: political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
: since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
: need to exist (and I think they still do?)
:
: Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC will
: use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the Culture
: as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the best
: interests of the Culture as a whole.
:
: >But of course, the West has
: > - since the Cold War - usually backed the 'benevolent' dictator over and
: over
: > again. Duh (on me).
:
: Agreed. And usually royally screwed it up - bit like Zakalwe with the
: Ethnarch Kerian
I think theres quite a large difference between why the Culture backs the
autocrat, and why the western democracices backed right-wing dictators
during the cold war. My reading of Inversions suggested to me that the
Culture will back the course of action which is most likely to give a good
outcome , within the cultures frame of ref, this may in the short term
involve backing scum, but the long term goal would not be that.
Therefore, royally screwing up partenerships with Dictators may well be
the aimed for result.
--
Matthew Stanfield
> > > >> > : > : > <spoilers for 'Use of Weapons'>
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> They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
> of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any current
> political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
> since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
> need to exist (and I think they still do?)
The closest system is a Kibbutz and that's socio-economic rather than
political. Politics plays a part in them too but not significantly since
they are, effectively, without power. Basically The Culture is a liberal
cooperative.
..matthew
bonzi
Stanfield <mat...@propertyknowledge.com> wrote:
> Basically The Culture is a liberal cooperative.
The Culture is what was originally meant by Communism (prior to
Russian and later travesties, or even Paris Comune).
Bonzi
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Rob G
>
> > Basically The Culture is a liberal cooperative.
>
> The Culture is what was originally meant by Communism (prior to
> Russian and later travesties, or even Paris Comune).
>
> Bonzi
>
>
Russia, Marx actually had England more in mind when he came up with it.
Dave Shipley
bonzi wrote:
>
> In article <390EE112...@propertyknowledge.com>, Matthew
> Stanfield <mat...@propertyknowledge.com> wrote:
>
> > Basically The Culture is a liberal cooperative.
>
> The Culture is what was originally meant by Communism (prior to
> Russian and later travesties, or even Paris Comune).
I'd definitely argue with any claim that the Commune was Communist in
nature.
--
* Peace through strength
Dave
Most mentions of cats ever
Hakan Erduman
Simon J Grimshaw <sj...@bioc.cam.ac.uk> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
8em6h8$8nk$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> In article <8ekkrg$en2$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Chris Lynas"
<ch...@excession.swinternet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >
> > Chris Lynas
> > --
> > http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
> > http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
> > ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
> >
> > <xpl...@istar.ca> wrote in message news:390D2647...@istar.ca...
> > >
> > stand-in)
> > > would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
> >
> > They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really.
One
> > of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any
current
> > political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
> > since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies
still
> > need to exist (and I think they still do?)
> >
> > Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC
will
> > use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the
Culture
> > as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the
best
> > interests of the Culture as a whole.
>
> feel about the decisions that are being made on their behalf by the minds
of
> SC. And what are the best interests of the Culture? Are they simply
trying
> to exist and "assimilate" (for want of a better word) other societies into
> their benevolent circle, or are they aiming to sublime?
I think 'the Culture' equals 'the Borg' - in a very friendly and therefore
more
dangerous way. I would prefer to live in 'the Culture' instead of anything
on
earth, anyway, I am that corruptable.
tonyC
3919b78a$0$12360@personalne
ws.de.uu.net>,
"Hakan Erduman" <
HakanE...@Rocketmail.co
m> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > ... And what are the best interests of the Culture? Are they simply
> trying
> > to exist and "assimilate" (for want of a better word) other societies into
> > their benevolent circle, or are they aiming to sublime?
>
> I think 'the Culture' equals 'the Borg' - in a very friendly and therefore
> more
> dangerous way. I would prefer to live in 'the Culture' instead of anything
> on
> earth, anyway, I am that corruptable.
>
>
I think they're more like the "Q",
except much less powerful, and
much more mortal. [...and I think
we're all that corruptable <g>.]
-- ....tonyC
Ad astra per aspera.
----------------------
No unsolicited mail please
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
David Mitchell
<sj...@bioc.cam.ac.uk> writes
>In article <8ekkrg$en2$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Chris Lynas" <ch...@excession.sw
>internet.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>
>> Chris Lynas
>> --
>> http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
>> http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
>> ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
>>
>> <xpl...@istar.ca> wrote in message news:390D2647...@istar.ca...
>> >
>> stand-in)
>> > would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
>>
>> They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
>> of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any current
>> political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
>> since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
>> need to exist (and I think they still do?)
>>
>> Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC will
>> use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the Culture
>> as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the best
>> interests of the Culture as a whole.
>
>feel about the decisions that are being made on their behalf by the minds of
>to exist and "assimilate" (for want of a better word) other societies into
>their benevolent circle, or are they aiming to sublime?
Actually, it's explicitly stated that one of the reasons the Culture as
a whole hasn't sublimed is that they regard it as their moral duty to
stay around and meddle with bad things.
Not in those words of course :-)
--
==========================================================================
David Mitchell ===== Visit: www.thehungersite.com
================================
da...@edenroad.demon.co.uk ===== Feed someone for nothing.
==========================================================================
Charles Kooy
> In article <8em6h8$8nk$1...@pegasus.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Simon J Grimshaw
> <sj...@bioc.cam.ac.uk> writes
> >In article <8ekkrg$en2$1...@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, "Chris Lynas" <chris@excession
>.sw
> >internet.co.uk> writes:
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Chris Lynas
> >> --
> >> http://www.excession.swinternet.co.uk
> >> http://members.tripod.com/a.b.i-b
> >> ICQ 471013234 (Sundays :)
> >>
> >> <xpl...@istar.ca> wrote in message news:390D2647...@istar.ca...
> >> >
> >> > I guess I had a hard time thinking the Culture (Western democratic
> >> stand-in)
> >> > would back the autocrats like The Chosen One et al.
> >>
> >> They're not democratic as such, neither are they anything else really. One
> >> of the nice things about the Culture books is that there _isn't_ any
> current
> >> political system that's like them, there's no political axe being ground
> >> since the whole basis of the society is not achievable when economies still
> >> need to exist (and I think they still do?)
> >>
> >> Anyway, that's the point of the book (as suggested by the title) - SC will
> >> use any weapon to achieve their goals. They _do_ do things that the
> Culture
> >> as a whole wouldn't do and they do it to further what they see as the best
> >> interests of the Culture as a whole.
> >
> >Isn't that a little spooky? I was wondering how the people of the culture
> >feel about the decisions that are being made on their behalf by the minds of
> >SC. And what are the best interests of the Culture? Are they simply trying
> >to exist and "assimilate" (for want of a better word) other societies into
> >their benevolent circle, or are they aiming to sublime?
>
> Actually, it's explicitly stated that one of the reasons the Culture as
> a whole hasn't sublimed is that they regard it as their moral duty to
> stay around and meddle with bad things.
>
> Not in those words of course :-)
So basically they're a bunch of meddling busybodies.
With very large, intelligent and destructive ships.
hmmm. :-)
ck
Thomas Nulla
Kooy) wrote:
>
>So basically they're a bunch of meddling busybodies.
>
>With very large, intelligent and destructive ships.
>
>hmmm. :-)
Methinks that description (except for the intelligent ships) could apply
to most of the non-sublimed spacefaring cultures in the Culture
universe. We often see the Culture interfering with the interferers
more than the interfered with. It's almost like some time-travel
stories, with multiple groups seeking to undo the changes of the
others...and of course, the original conditions completely wiped out in
the process.
>ck
Thomas <now playing: silence>
http://home.austin.rr.com/tnulla/index.htm (high fidelity and more)
"There's more to the Internet than warez and porn. But who cares?"
Simon J Grimshaw
> On Sun, 14 May 2000 23:24:06 +0100, charle...@tesco.net (Charles
> Kooy) wrote:
>
>
> >
> >So basically they're a bunch of meddling busybodies.
> >
> >With very large, intelligent and destructive ships.
> >
> >hmmm. :-)
>
> Methinks that description (except for the intelligent ships) could apply
> to most of the non-sublimed spacefaring cultures in the Culture
> universe. We often see the Culture interfering with the interferers
> more than the interfered with. It's almost like some time-travel
> stories, with multiple groups seeking to undo the changes of the
> others...and of course, the original conditions completely wiped out in
> the process.
I was looking over the short history of the Idiran War at the end of CP
recently, and was wondering about the Homomda (sp.?) - they seem to have at
least at much power and influence as the Culture (or at least it seemed that
way from my reading of it), yet we hear little about them. It does look
like, as you say, a number of socities playing for position against each
other by influencing other smaller civilisations between them (the Idirans in
CP, the Affront in E).
Si
Hugo 'NOx' Tyson
sj...@bioc.cam.ac.uk (Simon J Grimshaw) writes:
> Thomas Nulla <nu...@austin.rr.com> writes:
> > We often see the Culture interfering with the interferers
> > more than the interfered with.
>
> against each other by influencing other smaller civilisations between
> them (the Idirans in CP, the Affront in E).
Japan(August1945), Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, Iran/Iraq... ;-)
Just to highlight that this is perfectly normal behaviour for rival
powerful political entities that don't want to fight each other
explicitly/directly.