So what did everone think of Exceesion? *spoiler (maybe)*
Ian Stewart
I figured since Excession just came out onto paperback then many may of
just bought ( I'm a student I know how little cash I have avalable to spend
£15 on a hardback copy). I thought many of the scientific descriptions
were much better described than in Iain's other Culture books, and by far
more exiting. It lacked that impact of The Use Of Weapons though very good
in itself.
So what did everyone else think?
--
"Call your damable hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming into hell with
me"
Jens Tingleff
In article <01bc6d53$149edd00$80aa...@emcnet4.u-net.com>, "Ian Stewart"
<iste...@emcnet.com> wrote:
> I figured since Excession just came out onto paperback then many
may of
> just bought ( I'm a student I know how little cash I have avalable to spend
> £15 on a hardback copy). I thought many of the scientific descriptions
> were much better described than in Iain's other Culture books, and by far
> more exiting. It lacked that impact of The Use Of Weapons though very good
> in itself.
> So what did everyone else think?
I thought that the techie stuff was mildly interesting. I still like the
"human interest" heavy stories like 'Consider Phlebas' and 'Use of Weapons'
better, though.
I think it was a mistake to try to involve the reader in the twisted way of
thougt of the culture minds - only to come out with a conclusion which
indicates that the minds are no "better" than regular persons at making
"the right decision". All the questions of whether one should get involved,
whether an ancient enemy should be left alone or should be entrapped to
attack again so that one could whack them for good, etc, could just as well
have been asked by humans. It made sense in the novel, since the actions
taken could pretty much only have been taken by some very powerful
individuals - in this case the minds.
Maybe it was just ever so slightly over-ambitious?
However, as one reviewer put it (paraphrased) "it's hard to be upset with
an author who can come up with as wild scenes as the disturbed street
procession with dinosours." Flawed or not, it's still a terrific piece of
space opera.
Jens
------ No PGP signature, no authenticity. Vive La France!! ---------
http://www.imaginet.fr/~jensting/. Scientology[tm]?? Check it out at
http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/mpoulter/scum.html *and*
http://www.scientology.org/. Report to alt.religion.scientology ;-)
Jon Poole
In between 'Owwwwwww's "Ian Stewart" <iste...@emcnet.com> wrote:
: I figured since Excession just came out onto paperback then many may of
:just bought ( I'm a student I know how little cash I have avalable to spend
:£15 on a hardback copy).
I'm a student, I just get piles of Books at Christmas.
: I thought many of the scientific descriptions
:were much better described than in Iain's other Culture books, and by far
:more exiting. It lacked that impact of The Use Of Weapons though very good
:in itself.
: So what did everyone else think?
I think it was, without a doubt the most enjoyable of his Culture
books but was not all that dramatic
Jon
--
'Mind what you have learned, help you it can'
j...@apathy.demon.co.uk http://www.apathy.demon.co.uk/
entrippy
>In between 'Owwwwwww's "Ian Stewart" <iste...@emcnet.com> wrote:
>
>: I figured since Excession just came out onto paperback then many may of
>:just bought ( I'm a student I know how little cash I have avalable to spend
>:£15 on a hardback copy).
>
>I'm a student, I just get piles of Books at Christmas.
I'm unemployed, but I bought it in hardcover regardless - some things
you just *can't* pass up.
>: I thought many of the scientific descriptions
>:were much better described than in Iain's other Culture books, and by far
>:more exiting. It lacked that impact of The Use Of Weapons though very good
>:in itself.
>: So what did everyone else think?
>
>I think it was, without a doubt the most enjoyable of his Culture
>books but was not all that dramatic
I loved it - without a doubt my favorite culture novel so far (though
there is possibly some bias due to it being the most recently read).
I also liked the detailed tech, and the thorough description of the
Minds.
My girlfriend, OTOH, found the whole thing to be the most boring of
the culture novels she has read so far. She found the 'Ship Talk'
tedious. Not an opinion I agree with mind you, but an interesting
one, none the less.
JOHN BILTZ
I just found this group 10 days ago and learned the book was out. I
immediately went out, found it, bought it, and read it.
I really enjoyed it. I thought it was in many ways the best and most
insightful of the culture books.
It was the first of the books to explore the minds in any detail. When he
did he blew me away with the concepts.
Minds alone would be hard to describe or write about and Mr. Banks not only
did not disappoint in their everyday actions.
He dealt with their leisure time, what they did for entertainment, how they
related to each other and humanoids.
I was fascinated by millennia old eccentric minds cruising the galaxy.
He also began to answer a fundamental question of any cutter not only "The
Culture" how do they make gov't level
decisions. A group of ancient legendary minds assembling together as a
crisis management team was just so perfect.
The Affront were a good invention for a bad, but very likable alien race.
Being in the Army myself I enjoyed the warrior ship "Killing Time". A mind
dedicated to honor and glory.
entrippy <entr...@labyrinth.net.au> wrote in article
<3397148c...@news.supernews.com>...
bonkydog
>> I'm unemployed, but I bought it in hardcover regardless - some things
>> you just *can't* pass up.
>>
Yah, I hear you about the Aesthetic Imperative of early hardcover
releases. I live in Berkeley California and there's bookstore out
here who has a smuggling connection for sci-fi books from the UK that
aren't out here yet. They had Excession in the blue hardcover 2 or 3
days after it's UK release. It was $40, but the book didn't come out
in America until about January. WORTH IT.
I liked the book, but found the human characters less engaging than
those of his earlier works -- not too surprising since they were bit
parts. They seemed almost to have been stuck in to give us humans
someone to identify with, though I would have been perfectly happy to
read a book without any human characters whatsoever. I feel that the
3 of the 2 main questions I had about the Culture have been answered
to my satisfaction: What are the machines doing with the time they
don't spend talking to their human friends (and how do they run their
civilization)? How would the Culture react to something which totally
outclassed it?
The remaining question (the answer to which banks hints at being
interesting and complex) is why are there humans everywhere.
I had initially assumed that the human race was REALLY OLD and that
the Culture's history took place Way Far In The Future, in a galaxy
where the human diaspora has spread far beyond any one
empire/civilization/culture's known space. Societies' level of
sophistication would have risen to starfaring levels and then
collapsed again innumerable times, so a given culture, rising from its
most recent dark age would find all kinds of interesting artifacts and
other cultures at all different levels of advancement, some rising,
some in decline. (This seems to be the model at work in Against a
Dark Background).
I like this idea a lot -- it allows people in a story to go out into
space and meet other human people, yet still be exploring unknown
territory without recourse to some hinky parallel evolution crock (or
the standard Von Daniken-style Precursor Seeder Race ) All kinds of
genetic/morphologic/cultural/technological alterations are possible--
some humans may be more alien than genuine aliens.
But Banks hints that there is some other mechanism at work. For one,
Earth's history intersects with that of the Culture in State of the
Art. It is, like 1978, or something and the Culture has with humanoid
people in it for zillions of years. I think there is some reference
to separate pre-existing humanoid species/civilizations fusing to form
the culture (in Consider Phlebas? or was it in "Brief Note on the
Culture?" hrm. "Brief Note" may not be Cannon.)
So anyway I hope he addresses this gray spot before he (as he as also
hinted he is going to do) stops writing Culture books. And of course,
I hope he handles it with a Really Good Idea. (His track record so
far is excellent.)
Neale Grant
Taking a break from buffing the droid, Steve Pugh wrote:
>bonkydog wrote:
>> The remaining question (the answer to which banks hints at being
>> interesting and complex) is why are there humans everywhere.
>[snippity, snip]
>> But Banks hints that there is some other mechanism at work. For one,
>> Earth's history intersects with that of the Culture in State of the
>> Art. It is, like 1978, or something and the Culture has with humanoid
>> people in it for zillions of years. I think there is some reference
>> to separate pre-existing humanoid species/civilizations fusing to form
>> the culture (in Consider Phlebas? or was it in "Brief Note on the
>> Culture?" hrm. "Brief Note" may not be Cannon.)
>Quite right, "Brief Note" is certainly not cannon, it looks a lot more
>like a text document then a bloddy big gun. ;-)
Ah, but wouldn't a Lazy Gun be able to disguise itself as anything it
wanted to?
>Is it canon? I hate it when people start talking about canonicity. I
>think it only applies to large multi-author worlds (Trek, Who, comics).
>Banks is the sole writer of the Culture books and is quite at liberty
>to contradict himself if he wants to.
He already has done in certain areas of the Culture. Well, perhaps
"contradicts" isn't quite the right word, but some things don't quite seem
to square across the whole set. (Although, in a typically annoying memory
fade, I can't think of any examples right now.)
So I think "A Few Notes on the Culture" is as canon as any of the books;
ie pretty consistent, but don't think that some future book won't
contradict some part of it.
[snipping of some of the document in question]
>"Now, in all the above, there are two untold stories implicit.
>One is the history of the Culture's formation, which was a lot less
>easy and more troubled than its later demeanour might lead one to
>expect, and the other is the story which answers the question; why
>were there all those so-similar humanoid species scattered around the
>galaxy in the first place?
>Each story is too complicated to relate here."
>The last suggests that there is a reason, unless Banks is bluffing and
>actually ahs no idea and no intention of coming up with one.
No disrespect meant to Banksie here, but I suspect the latter. He hints
darkly about this meta-story, which he may or may not write in the future,
but I suspect the half-formed ideas he's come up with have all
disappointed him. If he were ever to write a book about it, I'd expect it
to be a slightly sub-standard (for Banks) cash-in written because he'd run
out of good ideas. But then I'm a cynical git by nature.
Neale
Brit(S) H++:U--:- a21 s+++:- hf++ My Finals are FINISHED!
b! m! y- X---: P-- S++ M-- R--->$ At least until next year.
!A+++ C- T! TV- Ci MuR+++ACIPZ+
Am+++ Ac? B+>+++ V-- (v1.1) //ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk/~roney/
Steve Pugh
bonkydog wrote:
>
> The remaining question (the answer to which banks hints at being
> interesting and complex) is why are there humans everywhere.
[snippity, snip]
> But Banks hints that there is some other mechanism at work. For one,
> Earth's history intersects with that of the Culture in State of the
> Art. It is, like 1978, or something and the Culture has with humanoid
> people in it for zillions of years. I think there is some reference
> to separate pre-existing humanoid species/civilizations fusing to form
> the culture (in Consider Phlebas? or was it in "Brief Note on the
> Culture?" hrm. "Brief Note" may not be Cannon.)
Quite right, "Brief Note" is certainly not cannon, it looks a lot more
like a text document then a bloddy big gun. ;-)
Is it canon? I hate it when people start talking about canonicity. I
think it only applies to large multi-author worlds (Trek, Who, comics).
Banks is the sole writer of the Culture books and is quite at liberty
to contradict himself if he wants to.
Anyways, the quotes from "Brief Note" are:
"The Culture is a group-civilisation formed from seven or eight
humanoid species, space-living elements of which established a loose
federation approximately nine thousand years ago."
"The genofixing which established the potential for inter-species
breeding at the foundation of the Culture is the most obvious
indicator of what we might call Culture-hood in humans, but not
everybody has it; some people prefer to be more human-basic for
aesthetic or philosophical reasons, while some are so altered from
that human-basic state that any interbreeding is impossible."
"Now, in all the above, there are two untold stories implicit.
One is the history of the Culture's formation, which was a lot less
easy and more troubled than its later demeanour might lead one to
expect, and the other is the story which answers the question; why
were there all those so-similar humanoid species scattered around the
galaxy in the first place?
Each story is too complicated to relate here."
The last suggests that there is a reason, unless Banks is bluffing and
actually ahs no idea and no intention of coming up with one.
Cheers,
Steve
--
+----------------------------------+----------------------------------+
| Stephen Richard Pugh |
| maf...@dial.pipex.com |
| http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/estate/ax16/ |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------------+
JOHN BILTZ
In Excession, Banks reveals the different races that formed the Culture
were geno-fixed so they could inter breed. (I think geno-fixed was spelled
right)
Neale Grant <ro...@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk> wrote in article
<slrn5pqql4...@ferret.lmh.ox.ac.uk>...
> Taking a break from buffing the droid, Steve Pugh wrote:
> >bonkydog wrote:
> >> The remaining question (the answer to which banks hints at being
> >> interesting and complex) is why are there humans everywhere.
>
> >[snippity, snip]
>
> >> But Banks hints that there is some other mechanism at work. For one,
> >> Earth's history intersects with that of the Culture in State of the
> >> Art. It is, like 1978, or something and the Culture has with humanoid
> >> people in it for zillions of years. I think there is some reference
> >> to separate pre-existing humanoid species/civilizations fusing to form
> >> the culture (in Consider Phlebas? or was it in "Brief Note on the
> >> Culture?" hrm. "Brief Note" may not be Cannon.)
>
> >Quite right, "Brief Note" is certainly not cannon, it looks a lot more
> >like a text document then a bloddy big gun. ;-)
>
> Ah, but wouldn't a Lazy Gun be able to disguise itself as anything it
> wanted to?
>
> >Is it canon? I hate it when people start talking about canonicity. I
> >think it only applies to large multi-author worlds (Trek, Who, comics).
> >Banks is the sole writer of the Culture books and is quite at liberty
> >to contradict himself if he wants to.
>
> He already has done in certain areas of the Culture. Well, perhaps
> "contradicts" isn't quite the right word, but some things don't quite
seem
> to square across the whole set. (Although, in a typically annoying
memory
> fade, I can't think of any examples right now.)
>
> So I think "A Few Notes on the Culture" is as canon as any of the books;
> ie pretty consistent, but don't think that some future book won't
> contradict some part of it.
>
> [snipping of some of the document in question]
> >"Now, in all the above, there are two untold stories implicit.
> >One is the history of the Culture's formation, which was a lot less
> >easy and more troubled than its later demeanour might lead one to
> >expect, and the other is the story which answers the question; why
> >were there all those so-similar humanoid species scattered around the
> >galaxy in the first place?
> >Each story is too complicated to relate here."
>
> >The last suggests that there is a reason, unless Banks is bluffing and
> >actually ahs no idea and no intention of coming up with one.
>
Andrew Tarr
JOHN BILTZ wrote:
>
> In Excession, Banks reveals the different races that formed the Culture
> were geno-fixed so they could inter breed. (I think geno-fixed was spelled
> right)
genofixed. No hyphen. This was established in "Consider Phleabas". Bora
Horza Gobchul's woman aboard the pirate ship (Yachma? Yazim? Started
with "Y", I'm fairly sure) became pregnant because her grandmother was
Culture and the legacy allowed her to interbreed.
> > >The last suggests that there is a reason, unless Banks is bluffing and
> > >actually ahs no idea and no intention of coming up with one.
> >
> > No disrespect meant to Banksie here, but I suspect the latter. He hints
> > darkly about this meta-story, which he may or may not write in the
> future,
> > but I suspect the half-formed ideas he's come up with have all
> > disappointed him. If he were ever to write a book about it, I'd expect
> it
> > to be a slightly sub-standard (for Banks) cash-in written because he'd
> run
> > out of good ideas. But then I'm a cynical git by nature.
> >
> > Neale
One of the things I like most about Iain Bank's novels is that they
present a fairly "scientific" view of his universe: he takes care to
suggest how the effects his characters and machines might be done, and
ties it to a certain extent to what is known of physics. He sometimes
slips up, but not often. There are hints of absolute space in
"Excession", and ships travelling in hyperspace seem to have a maximum
velocity which seems wierd (but, then again, physics isn't the same in
hyperspace).
The big downer is the profundity of humans. The chances of parallel
evolution coming up with something even remotely humanoid -let alone
something that you'd find attractive enough and human enough to want to
breed with- are astronomically low. Once might be acceptable as a
statistical fluke, but it's obvious that this is a pretty commonplace
occurence.
I realise that a certain concession may have to be made for a human
audience- having all the characters completely alien would make for a
strange book- but I think he would have done better to set his novels in
the far future where humankind has conolised the galaxy, and human
civilistations rose and fell and rose again before the instigation of
the Culture. The only story that would be at all affected would be
"State of the Art". Maybe he has a good explanation, but like Neale I
expect to be disappointed.
By the Way, where can one find "A Few Notes on the Culture?"
Andrew Tarr
(aj...@cantua.canterbury.ac.nz)
Ron Thomson
JOHN BILTZ wrote:
>
> I just found this group 10 days ago and learned the book was out. I
> immediately went out, found it, bought it, and read it.
> I really enjoyed it. I thought it was in many ways the best and most
> insightful of the culture books.
I'm a confirmed Banks fan - of Iain Banks as well as Iain M banks - but
some of his works I like less than others - naturally. "Excession" was
a "less". It tried to maintain just too many threads simultaneously and
had too large a cast for my simple mind (lower case). A "dramatis
personae" - which included the ships - would have helped. I also
thought the finale was weak and had all the hallmarks of a prequel.
But I'll still look forward to the sequel.
Dr Ron Thomson
Ballistics + Impact Group
Glasgow University.
Peter Furniss
Steve Pugh <steve...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>bonkydog wrote:
>>
>> The remaining question (the answer to which banks hints at being
>> interesting and complex) is why are there humans everywhere.
>
>[snippity, snip]
>
>> But Banks hints that there is some other mechanism at work. For one,
>> Earth's history intersects with that of the Culture in State of the
>> Art. It is, like 1978, or something and the Culture has with humanoid
<possible spoilers for various M books>
also the "history of the Iridian War" at the end of Consider Phlebas
uses an Earth based date (from the Khmer Year Zero), which suggests
that the Culture does make contact in the next century or so (and the
implications for Earth of using the Khmer date are rather nasty -
there is also a reference to Year Zero in SoW.
>Anyways, the quotes from "Brief Note" are:
>"The Culture is a group-civilisation formed from seven or eight
>humanoid species, space-living elements of which established a loose
>federation approximately nine thousand years ago."
Which is supported by various references in Excession. Some of the
scenes in Sleeper Service show scenes that occurred 14000 years
previously.
<snip>
>"Now, in all the above, there are two untold stories implicit.
>One is the history of the Culture's formation, which was a lot less
>easy and more troubled than its later demeanour might lead one to
>expect,
again, various references in E, especially the various weaponry on
Phage Rock, which perhaps was an important player in that history.
> and the other is the story which answers the question; why
>were there all those so-similar humanoid species scattered around the
>galaxy in the first place?
>Each story is too complicated to relate here."
>The last suggests that there is a reason, unless Banks is bluffing and
>actually ahs no idea and no intention of coming up with one.
It will be most interesting to know.
Peter
Studio
Hi there. You said
> One of the things I like most about Iain Bank's novels is that they
>present a fairly "scientific" view of his universe: he takes care to
>suggest how the effects his characters and machines might be done, and
>ties it to a certain extent to what is known of physics. He sometimes
>slips up, but not often.
Very anal note: There's a little confusion of scale in Excession, in the
battle between ROU Killing Time and the fleet heading towards the Excession=
.
Banksie has the total time for the battle (during which KT supposedly swoop=
s
through the fleet, dealing death to all and sundry) at 11 microseconds.
Earlier, he puts the area of the fleet at a circle 30 light-years across.
Even at the speeds he usually gives for Culture ships (circa 100
kilolights), KT isn't going to get much swooping done. About a
light-second's worth, in fact.
> The big downer is the profundity of humans. [...] Once might be acceptabl=
e
as a
>statistical fluke, but it's obvious that this is a pretty commonplace
>occurence.
> I realise that a certain concession may have to be made for a human
>audience...
One could imagine a scenario where Von Daniken was right, just a few tens o=
f
thousands of years out. A race exports a few thousand early homo sapiens fo=
r
whatever purpose (servants, pets, some byzantine plan to remove a player
from the Galactic game). With the benefits of space opera health care, the
exported humans flourish, set up a few homes here and there, perhaps takes
over from their patron race when it sublimes. They muddle around for a few
thousand years, form the Culture, discover their original planet, but the
Minds don't tell anyone that it's the homeworld. Just an idea.
>
> By the Way, where can one find "A Few Notes on the Culture?"
>
I think you can find it on or near a website called "Darkside". Otherwise,
Alta Vista for Banks + Iain + M + Culture should point you in the right
direction.
=97 Nelson Cunnington
RBKLEIMAN
>also the "history of the Iridian War" at the end of Consider Phlebas
>uses an Earth based date (from the Khmer Year Zero), which suggests
>that the Culture does make contact in the next century or so (and the
>implications for Earth of using the Khmer date are rather nasty -
>there is also a reference to Year Zero in SoW.
The novella "The State of the Art" concerns contact between the Culture
and Earth - set in 1977 I think. This takes place about a century or two
before "Use of Weapons" if I recall, as the two share two characters - a
human and a drone. I won't give away anything in case you haven't read
it. Howeveer, it did not lead me to believe that the Khmer Rouge conquer
the world or that the Culture uses an earth based dating system. The Year
Zero - certainly the most chilling use of a new calendar that I've heard
of - may be different for the Culture - some other dating system not
related to earth.
Bob Kleiman
Bob Kleiman (RBKL...@aol.com)
Scott Susin
Peter Furniss (P.Fu...@ulcc.ac.uk) wrote:
: I still think I've seen a Khmer date somewhere !
Sma's poem at the beginning of UoW is dated, "Year 115 (Earth, Khmer
calendar)"
--
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Scott Susin "Time makes more converts than
Department of Economics Reason"
U.C. Berkeley Thomas Paine, _Common_Sense_
Peter Furniss
ssu...@emily11.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Susin) wrote:
>Peter Furniss (P.Fu...@ulcc.ac.uk) wrote:
>: I still think I've seen a Khmer date somewhere !
>Sma's poem at the beginning of UoW is dated, "Year 115 (Earth, Khmer
>calendar)"
Which is around 2090 AD, isn't it. The poem is said to be "own
translation" (from Marain to English). Maybe Sma was just indulging
in some black humour.