I've (Finally) Read the Collected Aickman
Evelyn
the two-volume Tartarus/Durtro "Collected Strange Stories of
Robert Aickman" -- in big gulps, as I tend to do with new books.
I'll be going back for a slow savoring, but at this point I've
been most impressed (for various reasons) by:
"We Are for the Dark" (1951): "The Insufficient Answer".
"Dark Entries" (1964): "The School Friend" (previously read, and
still my favorite of this collection).
"Powers of Darkness" (1966): "Larger Than Oneself" (still).
"Sub Rosa" (1968): A toss-up between "The Unsettled Dust" (still)
and "The Houses of the Russians".
"Cold Hand in Mine" (1975): Tough one. A three-way tie between
"The Real Road to the Church", "The Hospice" (still) and "The
Same Dog".
"Tales of Love and Death" (1977): "Residents Only". Honorable
mention to "Wood", which I'dve sworn I read as a teenager; but I
was far from teen-aged in 1977. Maybe it's the fairy-tale
atmosphere. And I keep seeing "Growing Boys" as a modern spatter
movie, for what that's worth.
"Intrusions" (1980): Another tough one, and another three-way
tie: "Hand in Glove", "The Fetch", and "The Breakthrough".
"Night Voices" (1985): "Just a Song at Twilight".
In his essay at the beginning of Volume I of the collection,
Aickman says, "...I know exactly what the Ancients meant by 'the
promptings of the Muse'. The stories which I consider to be my
most successful came to me as if dictated...as if written in at
least a half-trance..." All I can say is, I read ‘em in more
than that, and I'm not sure I've recovered. Or want to.
Evelyn
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pmont...@my-deja.com
Evelyn <uncanick...@bellatlantic.net.invalid> wrote:
> Thanks to discussions on this list, I've just finished reading
> the two-volume Tartarus/Durtro "Collected Strange Stories of
> Robert Aickman" -- in big gulps, as I tend to do with new books.
I myself am a little more than halfway through, but I've been
ranking the tales as I go along. As such my rankings are a little
tentative--but I expect the finest will remain as such after all is said
and done.
Interestingly enough, though we both would gladly be counted
among the unrepentant admirers of Aickman, I notice that we
rarely agree on his best and his worst! Aickman detractors take
note!
> I'll be going back for a slow savoring, but at this point I've
> been most impressed (for various reasons) by:
>
> "We Are for the Dark" (1951): "The Insufficient Answer".
Fine story, but I'm one of those for whom "The Trains" has few
peers in Aickman or elsewhere.
>
> "Dark Entries" (1964): "The School Friend" (previously read, and
> still my favorite of this collection).
I didn't care for this tale at all. In fact, I considered it the least of the
lot. For me, "Ringing the Changes" took the laurel.
>
> "Powers of Darkness" (1966): "Larger Than Oneself" (still).
Agreed, on this one, but I consider "Your Tiny Hand is Frozen,"
"The Wine Dark Sea," and "A Roman Question" as its equals.
_Powers of Darkness_ is a strong collection, in my view.
>
> "Sub Rosa" (1968): A toss-up between "The Unsettled Dust"
(still)
> and "The Houses of the Russians".
For me, _Sub Rosa_ contains two of Aickman's supreme
masterpieces--"Ravissante" and "Never Visit Venice." I'm taking
both to the grave with me--though I have no complaints, especially,
about the two you select.
>
> "Cold Hand in Mine" (1975): Tough one. A three-way tie between
> "The Real Road to the Church", "The Hospice" (still) and "The
> Same Dog".
"The Real Road" left me cold. "The Hospice" was the first Aickman
tale I ever read--about ten years ago--and it greatly impressed me
then--though I will be rereading shortly. "Niemandswasser" and
"The Swords" are so far my favorites, but I haven't finished the
collection. In fact, I'm in the middle of the award-winning "Pages
from a Young Girl's Journal" at the moment .
>
> "Tales of Love and Death" (1977): "Residents Only". Honorable
> mention to "Wood", which I'dve sworn I read as a teenager; but I
> was far from teen-aged in 1977. Maybe it's the fairy-tale
> atmosphere. And I keep seeing "Growing Boys" as a modern
spatter
> movie, for what that's worth.
>
> "Intrusions" (1980): Another tough one, and another three-way
> tie: "Hand in Glove", "The Fetch", and "The Breakthrough".
>
> "Night Voices" (1985): "Just a Song at Twilight".
I'll get back to you on these once I've read them! ;-)
>
> In his essay at the beginning of Volume I of the collection,
> Aickman says, "...I know exactly what the Ancients meant by 'the
> promptings of the Muse'. The stories which I consider to be my
> most successful came to me as if dictated...as if written in at
> least a half-trance..." All I can say is, I read Aickman in more
> than that, and I'm not sure I've recovered. Or want to.
Ah, the half-trance! I know it well. Indeed, I've been dragging out
Aickman for months just to make it last.
Paul M. (pitying the anti-Aickman insensitives)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Evelyn
wrote:
>I myself am a little more than halfway through, but I've been
>ranking the tales as I go along. As such my rankings are a
little
>tentative--but I expect the finest will remain as such after all
is said
>and done.
>
>Interestingly enough, though we both would gladly be counted
>among the unrepentant admirers of Aickman, I notice that we
>rarely agree on his best and his worst! Aickman detractors take
>note!
*************
I'm content to join the ranks of those who agree to disagree
about Aickman. At least now I understand why they do.
But one of the things that struck me again and again is something
I'm surprised not to have seen mentioned here -- his talent for
expressing our most ordinary feelings memorably. For example,
"Just a Song..." (I think it's that one) has the best description
of disillusionment I think I've read anywhere: "But that was
Spring and promise. This was summer and climax." I'm not
certain about the punctuation, but those are the words. I hadn't
expected that from an acknowledged master of the strange. Naive,
I guess.
kun...@hilltop.ic.edu
laggard about reading all the previously inaccessible stories, probably
because the knowledge that there was 'more' Aickman out there that I
couldn't get added a certain joy of anticipation to life. I enjoy
tremendously comparing favorites, and I hope to respond to Evelyn and
Paul's listings soon. For the moment, though, I wanted to take up
Evelyn's comment about Aickman's ability to express our most ordinary
feeling memorably. I completely agree, and it seems to me that
Aickman's artistry comes above all in the ways in which he can embed
the fantastic within the quotidian. Balancing those two elements is
terribly difficult, and I can think of stories of his that (to my
taste) go too far in one or the other direction (and let me add the
caveat that there is NO story by Aickman that I have not found worthy
of reading and re-reading). For my taste, "Wood" is a bit too much
weighted on the side of the fantastic, "The Visiting Star" a bit too
overwhelmed by the ordinary. Stories that strike me as among his most
successful at balancing the fantastic and the ordinary are: "The School
Friend," "The Trains," "The Insufficient Answer," "The View," "My Poor
Friend," "The Swords," "Meeting Mr. Millar," and "The Inner Room." Our
tastes will of course vary depending upon how we like the mix; a good
friend of mine who is a Tolkien admirer wasn't much impressed by a lot
of the Aickman that I recommended to him, but he *adored* "The Wine-
Dark Sea" (the story, not the collection).
I've read 5 of the stories previously inaccessible to me: "The
Insufficient Answer," "Choice of Weapons," "A Roman Question," "No
Stronger than a Flower," and "Wood." Of them, only "the Insufficient
Answer" has seemed to me to be among the stories that I would place
among his very best. I'd be very interested to hear other reactions!
Robert
In article <0e495550...@usw-ex0103-024.remarq.com>,
pmont...@my-deja.com
Yes, I noticed this too, and it is one of the reasons why I think he
ought to be placed very high among writers of the weird. In fact,
I've come upon many remarkable passages which seemed to me
worth writing down for their own sake, but which I failed to do, thanks to my
reluctance to set aside the tale, even for a moment.
As for diversity of opinion among Aickman admirers-- to me it's
more instructive than problematic. Call it a minor doctrinal
difference among the faithful. And seeing that Robert regards "A
School Friend" as highly as you do, I feel compelled to suspend
further judgment on that particular tale--especially since I ranked it
very low. It now deserves a rereading (and I'll take any opportunity
for a rereading!)
Paul M.
Evelyn
wrote:
<snip> And seeing that Robert regards
"A
>School Friend" as highly as you do, I feel compelled to suspend
>further judgment on that particular tale--especially since I
ranked it
>very low. It now deserves a rereading (and I'll take any
opportunity
>for a rereading!)
>
>Paul M.
Aw, gee, Paul, thanks!
Evelyn, who *thinks* you don't mean this the way it sounds
pmont...@my-deja.com
Evelyn <uncanick...@bellatlantic.net.invalid> wrote:
> In article <8dtrq7$keg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
pmont...@my-deja.com
> wrote:
> <snip> And seeing that Robert regards
> "A
> >School Friend" as highly as you do, I feel compelled to suspend
> >further judgment on that particular tale--especially since I
> ranked it
> >very low. It now deserves a rereading (and I'll take any
> opportunity
> >for a rereading!)
> >
> >Paul M.
> *************
> Aw, gee, Paul, thanks!
>
> Evelyn, who *thinks* you don't mean this the way it sounds
>
Indeed, I don't! :-)
What I was driving at was this-- I'm always a little skeptical of my
own literary judgments--as one perhaps ought to be given the
subjectivity of the process that arrives at them. As I recall, "A
School Friend" struck me as much less unified than the best of
Aickman's work (even at its most inexplicable); but this perception
may have been the result of my inattention during the reading (for
whatever the reason--tiredness, for instance). And so as it stood,
your opinion that "A School Friend" was not only a good story but a great
story was certainly sufficient for me to take notice--which is why
mention of the tale leapt out at me in Robert's post.
Paul M. (doing severe penance for having inadvertantly offended a
fellow Aickmanian)
blackf...@my-deja.com
This is blackfrancis speaking:
I have to agree with a lot of what you are saying Robert. I never
finished "Never Visit Venice" and there is still on story in the
collection that I have yet to read.
I think your mistaken, though about "The Insufficient Answer". Of
the stories you included I think this story is standard. In fact I
would say it it very similar to "The Unsettled Dust". That's not to say
it isn't good. I personally think "Wood" and "A Roman Question" are
superior stories, especially "Wood". To me it seems that this story is
set apart more from his other styles and plots.
I like most of favorites you listed above, except "My Poor Friend".
I never quite 'got' that one. "The Inner Room" is extrodinary. I have
to say from reading all these posts about Aickman that I rarely see
mentioned "Into The Wood","Ravisante", "The Clock Watcher", and with
probably the most satisfying Aickman conclusion "The Stains". These are
among my favorites as well as some of the ones you listed.
I think (JUST AN OPINION) "Larger Than Oneself", "The Real Road To
The Church", "The Waiting Room", "The Wine Dark Sea", and "The Next
Glade" are among the weaker stories.
GOOD DAY!
-Bf
je...@ionet.net
Hm, I liked "The Real Road To The Church". Go figger.
Now that I'm talking to all these folks who've read the whole
shebang, maybe one of them will be kind enough to suggest what "Mark
Ingestre: The Customer's Tale" was all about. The hardest of Aickman's
stories to interpret, in my opinion.
James
Evelyn
wrote:
It's along the same lines as Bloch's "Yours Truly, Jack the
Ripper". Below is a synopsis of Stephen Sondheim's musical
Sweeney Todd, cadged from its internet site, which gives a
general outline of the story. I'm sure others in the group can
steer us both toward the un-bastardized tale. This is the best I
could do at short notice.
Evelyn
Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street is a
macabre tragicomedy based on the legend of a
half-mad 19th century English barber. He is driven to
crime when his wife and child are taken from him by
an evil judge. Unjustly imprisoned, Todd eventually
escapes and vows to bring justice not only to the judge
who destroyed his life, but to all the people of London.
To this end, he forms a partnership with Mrs. Lovett,
an enterprising barmistress whose meat pies soon
become the tastiest in London!
Evelyn
wrote:
>In article <006ac548...@usw-ex0105-037.remarq.com>,
> Evelyn <uncanick...@bellatlantic.net.invalid> wrote:
>What I was driving at was this-- I'm always a little skeptical
of my
>own literary judgments--as one perhaps ought to be given the
>subjectivity of the process that arrives at them.
***********
No offense taken, Paul ;-)
Since I'm a mere reader of ghost stories -- not a publisher or
critic or writer -- I don't see how else I *can* approach them
except subjectively. It boils down to looking around for what I
like and giving my money to the people who can provide it. You
want subjective? My day job involves editing scientific journal
articles and grant applications. Frankly, 40-50 hours/week of
that kind of logic is all I can stand. So when the prose becomes
purple and I read, "There's no explanation for the story I'm
about to tell", I breathe a gentle "whoopee" and settle down to
give my brain a vacation. Aickman provided that, so he's OK by
me.
Evelyn
kun...@hilltop.ic.edu
Thanks for your interesting comments; I *love* talking about Aickman
because the conversation is always engaging. The stories are so open
to interpretation, and the range of possible responses so wide, that I
always find my appreciation for the stories increased in the discussion.
Let me just say a word about the type of Aickman story (and, by
extension, supernatural story in general) I prefer, which will, I hope,
make my choices of favorite stories a bit more explicable. I have
always found supernatural tales to be most effective when they are
clearly rooted in the real world. I have--and I am sure that I am the
loser for this--a tin ear when it comes to fantasy. Supernatural tales
that verge on the brink of fantasy (like "Wood") don't work as well for
me as stories that make the supernatural more powerful and unsettling
by placing it in an apparently reassuring "real" world. It's one of
the things that drew me to MR James and Lovecraft's stories too:
they're both Enlightenment rationalists who pause to warn us that there
are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in our
philosophy.
It's that preference that makes me like "The School Friend" so much.
Sally and Mel are such believable characters, the dilemma of the odd
change in a recently-returned friend so apparently 'normal,' yet
whatever happens to Sally is so mysterious that the story just seems to
me to work a remarkable kind of magic. It strikes me as the perfect
combination in Aickman of the mysterious and the ordinary (with "The
Inner Room" not far behind).
Naturally, others will prefer their Aickman with different emphases,
and that's what's fun about comparing notes. I must say that I have a
very positive impression of "The Stains." As I mulled over why I never
have it on a top-10 list, I think it is partly a function of the fact
that it is at the *end* of THE WINE-DARK SEA, by which time I had
pretty much gotten used to Aickman's template of "fragile male finds
erotic love and is destroyed by it." It's a powerful story--one of his
best on that theme--but there are, for my taste, a few too many stories
by Aickman devoted to that theme. I think that may be why I have
usually found Aickman's strongest stories to be those with female
protagonists--they are much more elusive and allusive.
By the way, I'm with you on "Larger Than Oneself" being one of
Aickman's weaker stories (I find the ordinary a bit heavy in that one)
but, by contrast, I've always liked "The Real Road to the
Church." "Ravissante" has some wonderful characterization, but I find
the ending moving a bit too far into the absurd.
I look forward to hearing more about others' preferences--
Robert
In article <8e56cu$61a$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
pmont...@my-deja.com
Very nicely put, Robert! I've often felt that Aickman stories are a tad
Decadent (in the literary sense of the word) and that may be due to
the femme fatale theme which you note. Doom never visits its
victims more prettily!
In regards to preferences-- Does anyone have any thoughts on
"Pages from a Young Girl's Journal"? It's quite un-Aickman-like in
that it is neither ambiguous nor unconventional and yet it features
two of Aickman's finest literary traits--exquisite, almost aphoristic
prose and sensitive characterization. I finished the tale a
couple nights ago--a rereading after ten years--and I think it's one
of his best. But is it really so good when placed up against his
other work, or was the World Fantasy Award that it garnered merely
a token to its conventional treatment of vampirism?
Incidentally, I liked "Pages" tip of the hat to the Radcliffean gothics.
It seemed as though Aickman were self-consciously linking the
gothic traditions (ie., non-supernatural to supernatural).
Paul M.
blackf...@my-deja.com
Thanks Robert!
First, I want to say that I have not read "The School Friend" in a
few years, though I have read it twice. I will not comment on that
story, but since you consider it among the very best I will give it a
new look. Then I'll see what I think.
> I am intrigued by some of what you said on your previous post. First
of all about "Wood" being on the 'brink of fantasy'. Which I agree it
is. The problem is you have high praise for "The Inner Room" which I
take to be even more fantastic. In many ways I think of these two
stories as sort of reverse mirrors of themselves. Though the form and
style is different the central theme is similar. So are the endings.
(You could say the same thing about "The Hospice" and "Into The Wood").
The theme that these characters lives become a physical manifestation
of a corrupt dwelling/dollhouse/giant clock is obvious. I think "The
Inner Room" is the superior story. I just hope you not
dismissing "Wood" for the same reasons your praising "Inner Room".
I do think that there are some Aickman stories that do overload the
fantasy elements. It's up to the individual to like or dislike this. I
cannot say that I would put "Wood" on this list. I would say stories
like "Marriage" "Growing Boys" "Bind Your Hair" and "Laura" could fit
into such a category. You would have to agree that these on this short
list are far more further out there than "Wood".
Also, you said that you are more drawn to the female protagnist
stories. Yet, I wonder why no mention of "Into The Wood". To me this
and maybe "The Trains" are pretty close to the best. (Keeping in mind I
have yet revisited "The School Friend".) And yes you do make a good
arguement against some of the love-killed man stories,but I hope that
does not just dismiss the whole group all together. And what is all
this about "The Stains" never making your top 10 list? What is your top
10 list? I would think it should be close to the top of any Aickman
list. Disregarding the worn out theme, the craftmanship alone and the
ending (One of his best) should make it a shoe-in. As you can see I
admire this story and that may just be because it had a strong effect
on me personally. I find alot of what I like about certain Aickman
stories is the way they seem unsettling and 'true' all at the same
time.
I like M.R. James a lot, too(Talk about repeating a theme NOW!). I have
grown away from Lovecraft. Do you ever read Walter de la Mare, Robert?
Just curious. I am interested.
Thanks for the time.
-blackfrancis
je...@ionet.net
>************
>It's along the same lines as Bloch's "Yours Truly, Jack the
>Ripper". Below is a synopsis of Stephen Sondheim's musical
>Sweeney Todd, cadged from its internet site, which gives a
>general outline of the story. I'm sure others in the group can
>steer us both toward the un-bastardized tale. This is the best I
>could do at short notice.
>Evelyn
>Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street is a
> macabre tragicomedy based on the legend of a
> half-mad 19th century English barber. He is driven to
> crime when his wife and child are taken from him by
> an evil judge. Unjustly imprisoned, Todd eventually
> escapes and vows to bring justice not only to the judge
> who destroyed his life, but to all the people of London.
> To this end, he forms a partnership with Mrs. Lovett,
> an enterprising barmistress whose meat pies soon
> become the tastiest in London!
Thanks Evelyn. I got the Sweeney Todd reference, but
as I recall (I haven't read the story in a couple of years), there was
also a reference to a historical personage of the political variety
which completely threw me off. Possibly Lord Lovett? I'll have to look
at it again.
James
jimrockhill
je...@ionet.net wrote:
>
> Hm, I liked "The Real Road To The Church". Go figger.
>
> Now that I'm talking to all these folks who've read the whole
> shebang, maybe one of them will be kind enough to suggest what "Mark
> Ingestre: The Customer's Tale" was all about. The hardest of Aickman's
> stories to interpret, in my opinion.
>
> James
>
>
knowledge of Sweeney Todd's exploits made it any more satisfactory.
Unlike Aickman's best work it seemed less cryptic than meaningless.
Perhaps someone else can clue us in to what Aickman had in mind here?
--
jimro...@my-deja.SPAMENOSPAM.com
jimrockhill
kun...@hilltop.ic.edu wrote:
> Welcome aboard, blackfrancis!
>
> Thanks for your interesting comments; I *love* talking about Aickman
> because the conversation is always engaging. The stories are so open
> to interpretation, and the range of possible responses so wide, that I
> always find my appreciation for the stories increased in the
discussion.
I fully agree with Robert (and welcome blackfrancis!) As much as any
one of us might disagree about which of Aickman's works is "great" and
which is either dissatisfying or apparently meaningless, our perception
of his work, as dependent it may also be on such purely linguistic
principles as language and construction, is so dependent on how we
relate to it PERSONALLY that reading about how and why it affected
someone else can add to our knowledge about any given story. The more
of his work I read and the more often I read it, the more apt I find
Fritz Leiber's characterization of Aickman as "the weather-man of the
unconscious."
Sometimes a story that left me cold in the past, such as "The Real
Road to the Church," "The Swords" or "The Cicerones," will strike with
force the next time I read it, as if I lacked the experiential trigger
necessary for it to affect me the first time. Some may find the whole
Aickman argument tiresome and unnecessary, and, occasionaly, one
person's crusading zeal may be mistaken for flaming, but I value
reading everyone's take on these fascinating, difficult tales, because
somewhere, someone might supply the clue I may have missed when reading
the tales I had otherwise dismissed. For instance, although I enjoyed
reading "The Insufficient Answer," by the time I have concluded reading
it I cannot help feeling that Aickman's title is apt to the point of
mockery.
My favorites among Aickman's tales are "The Swords," "The School
Friend," The Hospice," "The Stains," "The Inner Room," "The Visiting
Star," "Ravissante," "Into the Wood," "The Cicerones," "The View,"
"Hand in Glove" and "The View," but there are many others, such as the
remaining contents of COLD HAND IN MINE, "The Trains," "Ringing the
Changes," "My Poor Friend," "The Houses of the Russians," "A Roman
Question," the grotesque "Wood," etc., that I also enjoy. I found that
"Larger Than Oneself," though not equal to my favorites, became more
impressive with repeated reading. There are still a few I have not
gotten around to reading, and there are a few more that will hopefully
improve with age. I have never cared for "Marriage," "Letters to the
Postman," "Growing Boys," "Compulsory Games" "Mark Ingestre," or "No
Stronger Than a Flower," and so far, "Rosamund's Bower" leaves me cold.
Perhaps, some day this will change.
Jim
blackf...@my-deja.com
Thanks Jim! It seems you have said what I was trying to say, but at the
time I could not get the words right. I think you have hit upon a very
perceptive point in what you wrote. That is that Aickman's (for those
of us drawn to it) seems to change over time with the feelings and
experiences we live through. Because these tales are so subjective and
open to the readers imagination that over time the very meanings,
feelings, and ideas change. At least I think it works that way for me
You spoke about "Real Road" and "The Swords" becoming better later. I
must confess that this brought to mind an opposite experience I had.
The last time I read "The Trains" a story that I always thought fairly
powerful, I had kind of a flat reation to it. Not that that will change
my opinions negatively towards it, but it did make me think about
revisiting some other tales I might think differently of now.
> My favorites among Aickman's tales are "The Swords," "The School
> Friend," The Hospice," "The Stains," "The Inner Room," "The Visiting
> Star," "Ravissante," "Into the Wood," "The Cicerones," "The View,"
> "Hand in Glove" and "The View," but there are many others, such as the
> remaining contents of COLD HAND IN MINE, "The Trains," "Ringing the
> Changes," "My Poor Friend," "The Houses of the Russians," "A Roman
> Question," the grotesque "Wood," etc., that I also enjoy. I found that
> "Larger Than Oneself," though not equal to my favorites, became more
> impressive with repeated reading. There are still a few I have not
> gotten around to reading, and there are a few more that will hopefully
> improve with age. I have never cared for "Marriage," "Letters to the
> Postman," "Growing Boys," "Compulsory Games" "Mark Ingestre," or "No
> Stronger Than a Flower," and so far, "Rosamund's Bower" leaves me
cold.
> Perhaps, some day this will change.
>
> Jim
> --
See now you listed many of the same tales I would list. You wrote
before that "The Swords" had left you cold (A play on words here could
be that that was the writer's intention.) but now I see it all but tops
your list. Proof of what you were saying.
I think what we should decide to do is stop trying to judge good,
better, best and instead just tell our personal favorites without
assigning criticism since this whole body of work seems so subjective.
And as you pointed out, not only does that change person to person, but
also over time.
So, the Robert Aickman stories I have been most drawn to, have re-read
the most, and that move through my head unexpectedly the most are in
order: "The Stains" "The Inner Room" "Ravissante" "Wood" "The
Fetch" "The Hospice" "The Trains" "A Roman Question" "Ringing The
Changes" and "Into The Wood". I will not say these are the best because
there are so many other tales that could be put on list. These are just
my own obsessive top-ten favorites. And let it be know that I did not
pick these stories myself. They picked me. Aickman and the back-of-my-
mind decided this was the top-ten.
Thanks for listing, I really am learning something.
-Bfrancis
kun...@hilltop.ic.edu
blackf...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Robert!
>
> First, I want to say that I have not read "The School Friend" in a
> few years, though I have read it twice. I will not comment on that
> story, but since you consider it among the very best I will give it a
> new look. Then I'll see what I think.
>
> > I am intrigued by some of what you said on your previous post. First
> of all about "Wood" being on the 'brink of fantasy'. Which I agree it
> is. The problem is you have high praise for "The Inner Room" which I
> take to be even more fantastic. In many ways I think of these two
> stories as sort of reverse mirrors of themselves. Though the form and
> style is different the central theme is similar. So are the endings.
> (You could say the same thing about "The Hospice" and "Into The
Wood").
> The theme that these characters lives become a physical manifestation
> of a corrupt dwelling/dollhouse/giant clock is obvious. I think "The
> Inner Room" is the superior story. I just hope you not
> dismissing "Wood" for the same reasons your praising "Inner Room".
An interesting point (and an interesting interpretation of links between
"Wood" and "The Inner Room" that I had never considered). To my taste,
""Wood" *feels* more fantastic, and the ending moves into something like
fairy-tale territory (I hasten to add that I mean that as description,
not criticism). "The Inner Room" certainly moves into the mysterious,
as the narrator encounters the dolls' house in the storm, but that has a
different 'feel,' at least to my sensibility.
>
> I do think that there are some Aickman stories that do overload the
> fantasy elements. It's up to the individual to like or dislike this. I
> cannot say that I would put "Wood" on this list. I would say stories
> like "Marriage" "Growing Boys" "Bind Your Hair" and "Laura" could fit
> into such a category. You would have to agree that these on this short
> list are far more further out there than "Wood".
>
> Also, you said that you are more drawn to the female protagnist
> stories. Yet, I wonder why no mention of "Into The Wood". To me this
> and maybe "The Trains" are pretty close to the best. (Keeping in mind
I
> have yet revisited "The School Friend".) And yes you do make a good
> arguement against some of the love-killed man stories,but I hope that
> does not just dismiss the whole group all together. And what is all
> this about "The Stains" never making your top 10 list? What is your
top
> 10 list? I would think it should be close to the top of any Aickman
> list. Disregarding the worn out theme, the craftmanship alone and the
> ending (One of his best) should make it a shoe-in. As you can see I
> admire this story and that may just be because it had a strong effect
> on me personally. I find alot of what I like about certain Aickman
> stories is the way they seem unsettling and 'true' all at the same
> time.
I haven't re-read "The Stains" for some time (I guess I've read it 2-3
times), so I'll need to look at it again. As I said before, I think
mere chance is partly responsible for my not having it higher on a
personal favorites list: because I read it at a time when I knew the
template well--and at the end of a collection that contains a number of
prominent examples of that template--it didn't make the impact on me
that I think it would have if I had encountered it earlier in my reading
of Aickman. This is ,of course, what's fun about these
conversations--they prompt one to reassess one's ideas, and look anew at
stories one had neglected.
>
> I like M.R. James a lot, too(Talk about repeating a theme NOW!). I
have
> grown away from Lovecraft. Do you ever read Walter de la Mare, Robert?
> Just curious. I am interested.
My continuing enjoyment of Lovecraft is probably rooted in my fondness
for nice, clear tales of suspense, where the Bad Thing is fairly
unambiguous and I can go along for the ride (though I should also say
that Lovecraft's finest tales, such as "The Colour out of Space," "At
the Mountains of Madness," "The Dunwich Horror," and "The Call of
Cthulhu," develop this with considerable artistry, and a great sense of
the mysterious). A less charitable commentator might suggest that there
is something a bit juvenile in a taste for such tales (as I read--and
heartily enjoyed--W. H. Hodgson's "The Derelict," a part of me was
thinking "this is a perfect boy's adventure story").
I have been reading some de la Mare, which I have found often to be
excellent, and often to be very reminsiscent of Aickman (I think
particularly of a story like "The Green Room"). I need to read more de
la Mare, though--I have the short collection of *Ghost Stories* issued
in 1956, and I recently acquired Volume 1 of *The Collected Stories*, so
I hope to become more expert in the relatively near future. If you have
any recommendations for especially fine de la Mare stories, I would love
to get them (I've also read "Out of the Deep," "Seaton's Aunt," and "The
Quincunx").
Robert
jimrockhill
blackf...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Jim! It seems you have said what I was trying to say, but at
the
> time I could not get the words right. I think you have hit upon a very
> perceptive point in what you wrote. That is that Aickman's (for those
> of us drawn to it) seems to change over time with the feelings and
> experiences we live through. Because these tales are so subjective and
> open to the readers imagination that over time the very meanings,
> feelings, and ideas change. At least I think it works that way for me
>
> You spoke about "Real Road" and "The Swords" becoming better later. I
> must confess that this brought to mind an opposite experience I had.
> The last time I read "The Trains" a story that I always thought fairly
> powerful, I had kind of a flat reation to it. Not that that will
change
> my opinions negatively towards it, but it did make me think about
> revisiting some other tales I might think differently of now.
>
> > Friend," The Hospice," "The Stains," "The Inner Room," "The Visiting
> > Star," "Ravissante," "Into the Wood," "The Cicerones," "The View,"
> > "Hand in Glove" and "The View," but there are many others, such as
the
> > remaining contents of COLD HAND IN MINE, "The Trains," "Ringing the
> > Changes," "My Poor Friend," "The Houses of the Russians," "A Roman
> > Question," the grotesque "Wood," etc., that I also enjoy. I found
that
> > "Larger Than Oneself," though not equal to my favorites, became more
> > impressive with repeated reading. There are still a few I have not
> > gotten around to reading, and there are a few more that will
hopefully
> > improve with age. I have never cared for "Marriage," "Letters to the
> > Postman," "Growing Boys," "Compulsory Games" "Mark Ingestre," or "No
> > Stronger Than a Flower," and so far, "Rosamund's Bower" leaves me
> cold.
> > Perhaps, some day this will change.
> >
> > Jim
> > --
>
> before that "The Swords" had left you cold (A play on words here could
> be that that was the writer's intention.) but now I see it all but
tops
> your list. Proof of what you were saying.
>I think what we should decide to do is stop trying to judge good,
> better, best and instead just tell our personal favorites without
> assigning criticism since this whole body of work seems so subjective.
> And as you pointed out, not only does that change person to person,
but
> also over time.
>
Blackfrancis,
I agree. Since there is only so much time, and so much currently
marketed as "horror" is such crap, we are all tempted to set up our
favorites as benchmarks regardless of the problems and
misunderstandings this may present later. With an author as
controversial as Aickman - some people detest the work AND the man -
this can have particularly paradoxical effects, since what strikes a
nerve with me may seem ludicrous or boring to another. I had to
repeatedly remind (nag?) my sister to read everything in her copy of
COLD HAND IN MINE, when this was the only readily available collection
of Aickman in the U.S., before dismissing him out of hand, knowing that
something in there would work for her. The story that converted her and
led her delightedly back through the book was "The Same Dog," an
interesting story, but certainly not the one I would have expected.
Today, she is most impressed, as am I, with "The Inner Room."
> So, the Robert Aickman stories I have been most drawn to, have re-read
> the most, and that move through my head unexpectedly the most are in
> order: "The Stains" "The Inner Room" "Ravissante" "Wood" "The
> Fetch" "The Hospice" "The Trains" "A Roman Question" "Ringing The
> Changes" and "Into The Wood". I will not say these are the best
because
> there are so many other tales that could be put on list. These are
just
> my own obsessive top-ten favorites. And let it be know that I did not
> pick these stories myself. They picked me. Aickman and the back-of-my-
> mind decided this was the top-ten.
I think that is a good point, and probably true of all weird fiction.
No matter how well a tale may have been written, and supernatural
fiction demands more finesse than any other literary form I can think
of except poetry (c.f. Aickman's address at The First World Fantasy
Convention), it is that which haunts us afterward that determines our
favorites. And with Aickman even more than with other authors, past
experience usually conditions which allusions in which tales will chill
us the most. As much as we may want to think otherwise, it is not a
conscious decision at all. There is a recurrent phrase in Bleiler's
GUIDE TO SUPERNATURAL FICTION, "literate, but dull," which best
characterize those tales we read that have no spirit no matter how many
ghosts appear in them.
I still need to give "The Fetch" another read before I decide on it.
Having read it some years ago over the holidays with a house full of
guests, I was conscious of having missed something, but have not gotten
back to it since. Your high opinion of it shames me into finally giving
it that other chance.
>
> Thanks for listing, I really am learning something.
>
> -Bfrancis
You are welcome and thank you. We are all learning.
blackf...@my-deja.com
> Blackfrancis,
>
> I agree. Since there is only so much time, and so much currently
> marketed as "horror" is such crap, we are all tempted to set up our
> favorites as benchmarks regardless of the problems and
> misunderstandings this may present later. With an author as
> controversial as Aickman - some people detest the work AND the man -
> this can have particularly paradoxical effects, since what strikes a
> nerve with me may seem ludicrous or boring to another. I had to
> repeatedly remind (nag?) my sister to read everything in her copy of
> COLD HAND IN MINE, when this was the only readily available collection
> of Aickman in the U.S., before dismissing him out of hand, knowing
that
> something in there would work for her. The story that converted her
and
> led her delightedly back through the book was "The Same Dog," an
> interesting story, but certainly not the one I would have expected.
> Today, she is most impressed, as am I, with "The Inner Room."
Wow. My hand goes out to you Jim. I have (SO FAR!) failed to get
anyone else be it family memeber or friend interested in Aickman. I am
quite inspired by your success. "The Same Dog" is a good story when you
need an Aickman fix. I like it and have read many times, manly because
it is so short and compact. It has all of the author's elements without
the elaborate nature of his other stories. I think it is a good intro
into this world of 'strange tales'.
I would also like to say that "The Inner Room" will stand in my mind as
one of the greastest short stories I have ever read. I just re-read it
last night after your post and I still cannot figure it out and I still
cannot help but stand in awe of it. I am glad someothers admire it like
me.
>
> I think that is a good point, and probably true of all weird fiction.
> No matter how well a tale may have been written, and supernatural
> fiction demands more finesse than any other literary form I can think
> of except poetry (c.f. Aickman's address at The First World Fantasy
> Convention), it is that which haunts us afterward that determines our
> favorites. And with Aickman even more than with other authors, past
> experience usually conditions which allusions in which tales will
chill
> us the most. As much as we may want to think otherwise, it is not a
> conscious decision at all. There is a recurrent phrase in Bleiler's
> GUIDE TO SUPERNATURAL FICTION, "literate, but dull," which best
> characterize those tales we read that have no spirit no matter how
many
> ghosts appear in them.
> I still need to give "The Fetch" another read before I decide on it.
> Having read it some years ago over the holidays with a house full of
> guests, I was conscious of having missed something, but have not
gotten
> back to it since. Your high opinion of it shames me into finally
giving
> it that other chance.
Jim I cannot stress enough how large of an impression this story ("The
Fetch") had upon me. With the exception of "The Stains" no other Robert
Aickman story has had a profound 'intrusion' if I may use that word
into my daily life. Maybe I am misstaken and maybe that may have just
been my state of mind at the time, but "The Fetch" stayed with me for a
long time after I had read it. I have read it 3 times since. I never
had a duplicate experience as the first time, but I still go back to it
time after time. Please do give a read.
To bring up other subjects and to anyone who maybe listening in: Am I
the only one who thinks "Your Tiny Hand Is Frozen" strongly resembles a
smaller, scaled-down, modernized version of Oliver Onions' "The
Beckoning Fair One"?????? Your thoughts????
Thanks again Jim. Hope to converse again soon.
-bfrancis
death...@my-deja.com
let me just voice agreement with blackfrancis.
Jim, by all means give "The Fetch" another look. Certainly one of
Aickman's most straightforward strange/ghost stories, it's excellent
nonetheless. An often creepy, moving, and ultimately haunting story.
Surrounded by a bunch of similarly excellent entries in THE WINE DARK
SEA, it is tough to single out "The Fetch" for praise, but I definitely
think it would be worthwhile to give this tale another spin sometime.
John
In article <8ej70k$7mk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
blackf...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Jim I cannot stress enough how large of an impression this story ("The
> Fetch") had upon me. With the exception of "The Stains" no other
Robert
> Aickman story has had a profound 'intrusion' if I may use that word
> into my daily life. Maybe I am misstaken and maybe that may have just
> been my state of mind at the time, but "The Fetch" stayed with me for
a
> long time after I had read it. I have read it 3 times since. I never
> had a duplicate experience as the first time, but I still go back to
it
> time after time. Please do give a read.
>
> To bring up other subjects and to anyone who maybe listening in: Am I
> the only one who thinks "Your Tiny Hand Is Frozen" strongly resembles
a
> smaller, scaled-down, modernized version of Oliver Onions' "The
> Beckoning Fair One"?????? Your thoughts????
>
> Thanks again Jim. Hope to converse again soon.
>
> -bfrancis
>
jimrockhill
death...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Sorry to be jumping into this fascinating discussion a little late,
but
> let me just voice agreement with blackfrancis.
Glad to have you jump in!
> > > > Thanks for listing, I really am learning something.
> > > >
> > > > -Bfrancis
> > >
> > > You are welcome and thank you. We are all learning.
> > >
> > > Jim
> > > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > jimro...@my-deja.SPAMENOSPAM.com
John and Blackfrancis,
Thank you both. "The Fetch" has now moved from my "Re-Read Whenever I
Get Around To It" list to the second highest position of urgency on my
"Read Next" list. At the rate things are going, I should be able to get
to it this coming weekend. Thanks again for re-directing me toward this
tale.
blackf...@my-deja.com
>
> An interesting point (and an interesting interpretation of links
between
> "Wood" and "The Inner Room" that I had never considered). To my
taste,
> ""Wood" *feels* more fantastic, and the ending moves into something
like
> fairy-tale territory (I hasten to add that I mean that as description,
> not criticism). "The Inner Room" certainly moves into the mysterious,
> as the narrator encounters the dolls' house in the storm, but that
has a
> different 'feel,' at least to my sensibility.
>
> I haven't re-read "The Stains" for some time (I guess I've read it 2-3
> times), so I'll need to look at it again. As I said before, I think
> mere chance is partly responsible for my not having it higher on a
> personal favorites list: because I read it at a time when I knew the
> template well--and at the end of a collection that contains a number
of
> prominent examples of that template--it didn't make the impact on me
> that I think it would have if I had encountered it earlier in my
reading
> of Aickman. This is ,of course, what's fun about these
> conversations--they prompt one to reassess one's ideas, and look anew
at
> stories one had neglected.
>
Robert-
I totally agree. Since I've been in these discussions I have gone back
and re-thought some of my previous notions. I did get to read "The
School Friend" again on friday. I like this story, but I think I am
missing something you see (or feel) that I don't. I think part of the
problem might be that I do not have any emotional reaction to the
characters and situations. To me the whole thing seems hurried and
underdeveloped (i.e. it's too short). But I am not trying to start a
debate or to put down a story you like. That was just my reaction. I
Have the same reactions to other stories by Aickman. It's not that the
tales are bad, I just prefer others.
Your mentioning of Lovecraft has me wanting to read him again. "The
Color Out Of Space" scared me when I was younger. But I see what your
saying (I Think). There are stories you read for one reason and stories
you read for another. I think we all do that to some extent. I hope you
not putting that down as a 'guilty ' sort of thing. I think
most of my problem has been not doing that so much. I get too locked on
to one authour, or type of story and I, consequently, discover
other/different things less and less.
As far a de la Mare goes here's some stories that I
like: "Crewe" "Strangers and Pilgrims" "A Recluse" "The Guardian" "All
Hallows" and a very odd one called "Missing" (You already
mentioned "Out Of The Deep" which is probably my personal favorite).
Bfrancis.
blackf...@my-deja.com
bir...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Sorry to be jumping into this fascinating discussion a little late,
but
> let me just voice agreement with blackfrancis.
>
> Aickman's most straightforward strange/ghost stories, it's excellent
> nonetheless. An often creepy, moving, and ultimately haunting story.
> Surrounded by a bunch of similarly excellent entries in THE WINE DARK
> SEA, it is tough to single out "The Fetch" for praise, but I
definitely
> think it would be worthwhile to give this tale another spin sometime.
>
> John
>
Thanks John. I like what you said about "excellent nothingness". That's
a good discription. I also think the tale is so creey because of the
matter-of-fact way the narrator describes and relates that startling
events.
Jump in anytime.
Bfrancis
jimrockhill
I remember liking this tale when I read it, but do not recall (it has
been a while)anything specifically akin to "The Beckoning Fair One" in
it. I will give it another read soon and get back to you on that. A
tale that did strike me as very reminiscent of "The Beckoning Fair One"
is Karl Edward Wagner's "In the Pines."
> > > Thanks again Jim. Hope to converse again soon.
> > >
> > > -bfrancis
> > >
> > > > > Thanks for listing, I really am learning something.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Bfrancis
> > > >
> > > > You are welcome and thank you. We are all learning.
> > > >
> > > > Jim
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > jimro...@my-deja.SPAMENOSPAM.com
> > > >
> > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > > Before you buy.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > >
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
> >
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
Blackfrancis and John,
I just re-read "The Fetch" and was very impressed by it this second
time around. It still does not supplant any of my favorites, but I
agree that it is a striking tale.
I am currently giving "Into the Wood" another read and again find it
wonderful. Perhaps it is simply due to the Kurhus setting, but I cannot
help imagining that this is what Thomas Mann might have written if he
had written ghost stories.