May God bless it and all who sail in it
Alan Allport
Kriegsmarine always referred to its ships as 'he'. _Bismarck_ was a he, _HMS
Prince of Wales_ was a she. Who won the bloody war anyway?
-------------------------
SEAFARERS everywhere were outraged yesterday by the news that ships are to
be unsexed.
In the mind of the mariner, his vessel is his mistress, and incontrovertibly
feminine, as she has been from ancient times. But Lloyd's List, the
268-year-old London-based daily shipping newspaper and bible of the
mercantile world, has decided to drop the gender and will henceforth refer
to a ship not as "she" but "it".
Julian Brady, the newspaper's editor, said yesterday that ships were nothing
more than mercantile real estate. Calling an elegant cruise liner "she" was
all very well, but it could be offensive to apply the feminine pronoun to
some rusting old hulk. "We are a serious business paper for shipping. It may
be a tradition to call ships 'she', but in standard journalistic practice
ships should be referred to as 'it'. The world moves on," Mr Brady said.
Naval and merchant seafarers were united in their objections. The Ministry
of Defence said: "Lloyd's List can do what it wants. The Royal Navy will
continue to call its ships 'she' as we have always done. It is historic and
traditional."
Britain's two major fleet owners, P&O and Cunard Line, were similarly
adamant that their vessels would remain thoroughly female. "Ships have
personalities and souls; we call them 'she' instinctively," a spokesman for
Cunard Line said. Noel Coward understood the matter perfectly, as he did
other issues of gender. In his 1942 classic wartime film In Which We Serve,
Chief Petty Officer Bernard Miles raises his glass: "I propose the health of
one who's very dear to me, a creature of many moods and fancies. She's very
often uncertain, hard to please, but I'm devoted to her with every fibre of
my being." At this point his wife, played by Joyce Carey, looks up at him
adoringly.
"Ladies and gentlemen, HMS Torrin," Miles says, to her obvious
disappointment.
Celia Johnson, the captain's wife in the same epic, describes the ship as
her enemy because it dominates the affections of her husband. "It holds
first place in his head; it comes before wife, home, children, everything,"
she says with despair, but with the understanding of a sailor's wife.
Ships have been "she" at least since Roman times, and most inflected
languages have "ship" as a feminine noun: navis in Latin, nave in
Italian,and safina in Arabic.
Perversely, the French regard bateau as masculine, and the Germans go their
own way with Das Schiff as a neuter noun.
Pieter van der Merwe, of the National Maritime Museum, said that there was
no general agreement as to why ships had assumed the feminine gender. "It
may be because they were once dedicated to goddesses whose figure was carved
on the bow to protect against storms," he said, "or it may be because ships,
like women, are expensive and difficult to handle. The history of the matter
is much obscured by male-chauvinist jokery."
Alternative theories suggest that the ship became feminine because it was
the only woman allowed at sea, and was treated with deference and respect;
others say that mariners spending a long time at sea came to regard the ship
as their mother.
Mr van der Merwe said that the National Maritime Museum would continue to
regard ships as feminine, if only because of tradition. He said: "Once you
start dismantling the linguistic element, you start dismantling the culture.
These traditions have long antiquity, and should be preserved."
The unsexing of ships was also resisted yesterday by the British Marine
Industries Federation, which organises the International Boat Show in London
and Southampton. The organisation said that it regarded the Lloyd's List
decision as an example of a creeping and unwelcome political correctness.
A spokesman said: "It's like hurricanes. They always used to have female
names, now they have male and female. And now it's boats. Our owners will
continue to refer to their boats as 'she' because they are part of the
family."
Women, on the other hand, may agree with Coward; "she" is more a mistress
than a wife.
Rowland McDonnell
> From the _Times_, March 21, 2002. All I can say to this is that the macho
> Kriegsmarine always referred to its ships as 'he'. _Bismarck_ was a he, _HMS
> Prince of Wales_ was a she. Who won the bloody war anyway?
Japan?
Anyway, German claims that the moon is of masculine gender - German is
one seriously screwed up language.
> -------------------------
>
> SEAFARERS everywhere were outraged yesterday by the news that ships are to
> be unsexed.
>
> In the mind of the mariner, his vessel is his mistress, and incontrovertibly
> feminine, as she has been from ancient times. But Lloyd's List, the
> 268-year-old London-based daily shipping newspaper and bible of the
> mercantile world, has decided to drop the gender and will henceforth refer
> to a ship not as "she" but "it".
>
> Julian Brady, the newspaper's editor, said yesterday that ships were nothing
> more than mercantile real estate. Calling an elegant cruise liner "she" was
> all very well, but it could be offensive to apply the feminine pronoun to
> some rusting old hulk.
Questions like `Offensive to whom?' do spring to mind - and why do
people worry about that sort of thing in any case?
[snip]
Rowland.
--
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fridolin
"Rowland McDonnell" <real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
news:1fag1jo.jqlxla1r3j70nN%real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet...
> Alan Allport <all...@ee.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > From the _Times_, March 21, 2002. All I can say to this is that the
macho
> > Kriegsmarine always referred to its ships as 'he'. _Bismarck_ was a he,
_HMS
> > Prince of Wales_ was a she. Who won the bloody war anyway?
>
> Japan?
>
> Anyway, German claims that the moon is of masculine gender - German is
> one seriously screwed up language.
I don't know what you're going on about but as a native German speaker
(although not a German by nationality) I can assure you that while the moon
is indeed masculine in German, and the sun feminine, the Kriegsmarine, macho
as it may have been, did NOT call the Bismarck he. Ships are generally 'she'
in German just as in English, so it was die Bismarck, die Tirpitz and so on.
There were one or two noted exceptions (der Hipper), but nobody had any
explanation for that.
Sorry for being so pedantic. Take it as useless information - then Orwell
himself would have liked it
Alan Allport
news:3cb5ee22$0$25808$6e36...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
> I don't know what you're going on about but as a native German speaker
> (although not a German by nationality) I can assure you that while the
moon
> is indeed masculine in German, and the sun feminine, the Kriegsmarine,
macho
> as it may have been, did NOT call the Bismarck he.
Having researched this further, I find that both are statements were wrong.
How's that for democracy?
As a general rule, the Kreigsmarine stuck to the standard genus rules when
describing its vessels. *However*, the _Bismarck_ was an exception. Given
her (sic) exceptional strength and the historical baggage she (sic) towed
along by representing Germany's 19th Century political hero, she (sic) was
always given the additional 'dignity' of being referred to in the possessive
adjective and pronoun forms as 'he' - his turrets, his armor, etc. This was
strictly a one-off bending of grammar.
Alan.
Rowland McDonnell
> "Rowland McDonnell" <real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet> schrieb:
> > Alan Allport <all...@ee.upenn.edu> wrote:
> >
> > > From the _Times_, March 21, 2002. All I can say to this is that the
> > > macho Kriegsmarine always referred to its ships as 'he'. _Bismarck_
> > > was a he, _HMS Prince of Wales_ was a she. Who won the bloody war
> > > anyway?
> >
> > Japan?
> >
> > Anyway, German claims that the moon is of masculine gender - German is
> > one seriously screwed up language.
>
> I don't know what you're going on about
Werll... From where I'm sat, the moon is pretty obviously female sex,
and giving the word for the thing a male gender strikes me as daft - but
who ever said any human language was at all logical?
> but as a native German speaker
> (although not a German by nationality) I can assure you that while the moon
> is indeed masculine in German, and the sun feminine, the Kriegsmarine, macho
> as it may have been, did NOT call the Bismarck he. Ships are generally 'she'
> in German just as in English, so it was die Bismarck, die Tirpitz and so on.
> There were one or two noted exceptions (der Hipper), but nobody had any
> explanation for that.
>
> Sorry for being so pedantic. Take it as useless information - then Orwell
> himself would have liked it
I quite like to hear about this sort of thing.
Rowland McDonnell
> "fridolin" <h.p...@aon.at> wrote in message
> news:3cb5ee22$0$25808$6e36...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>
> > I don't know what you're going on about but as a native German speaker
> > (although not a German by nationality) I can assure you that while the
> > moon is indeed masculine in German, and the sun feminine, the
> > Kriegsmarine, macho as it may have been, did NOT call the Bismarck he.
>
> Having researched this further, I find that both are statements were wrong.
> How's that for democracy?
Wrong? My Langenscheidt German/English dictionary open in my hands now
tells me it's der Schwindel for the moon and die Sonne for the sun.
> As a general rule, the Kreigsmarine stuck to the standard genus rules when
> describing its vessels. *However*, the _Bismarck_ was an exception. Given
> her (sic) exceptional strength and the historical baggage she (sic) towed
> along by representing Germany's 19th Century political hero, she (sic) was
> always given the additional 'dignity' of being referred to in the possessive
> adjective and pronoun forms as 'he' - his turrets, his armor, etc. This was
> strictly a one-off bending of grammar.
Ah!
fridolin
"Rowland McDonnell" <real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet> schrieb im
Newsbeitrag
> Alan Allport <all...@ee.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > "fridolin" <h.p...@aon.at> wrote in message
> > news:3cb5ee22$0$25808$6e36...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
> >
> > > I don't know what you're going on about but as a native German speaker
> > > (although not a German by nationality) I can assure you that while the
> > > moon is indeed masculine in German, and the sun feminine, the
> > > Kriegsmarine, macho as it may have been, did NOT call the Bismarck he.
> >
> > Having researched this further, I find that both are statements were
wrong.
> > How's that for democracy?
>
> Wrong? My Langenscheidt German/English dictionary open in my hands now
> tells me it's der Schwindel for the moon and die Sonne for the sun.
Sorry for being pedantic again, but moon is certainly NOT 'Schwindel' in
German. It's 'der Mond'. 'Schwindel' is vertigo.
Rowland McDonnell
Please don't be. I'm inclined to make mistakes and a mistake *this*
stupid - well... Oh dear. Oh dear me. Oh dear oh dear oh dear how
*did* I manage this one? <sigh> Idiot child.
> but moon is certainly NOT 'Schwindel' in
> German. It's 'der Mond'.
(dur. I knew that)
> 'Schwindel' is vertigo.
Moonshine, if my Langenschiedt is to be believed (or rather, the entry
for moonshine says Schwindel, but the entry for Schwindel says vertigo).
Rowland.
(who must have been very tired to make *that* mistake; but if you saw
the formatting of the dictionary, you'd see how it could have been done)
fridolin
> stupid - well... Oh dear. Oh dear me. Oh dear oh dear oh dear how
> *did* I manage this one? <sigh> Idiot child.
>
> > but moon is certainly NOT 'Schwindel' in
> > German. It's 'der Mond'.
>
> (dur. I knew that)
>
> > 'Schwindel' is vertigo.
>
> Moonshine, if my Langenschiedt is to be believed (or rather, the entry
> for moonshine says Schwindel, but the entry for Schwindel says vertigo).
>
> Rowland.
> (who must have been very tired to make *that* mistake; but if you saw
> the formatting of the dictionary, you'd see how it could have been done)
>
I don't know where this thread is leading us to, but you certainly shouldn't
worry - I know this kind of mistake only too well, believe me, and I know
the feeling afterwards - all hot and blushing. Well. Talking about
'moonshine', this can be 'Schwindel' in German indeed, but only in an
idiomatic sense of the English word; the literal translation would be
'Mondschein' (which does not carry the same idiomatic connotations in
German). As a matter of fact I kept wondering where you got your mistaken
translation from - I knew it had to be some slight mistake like this, but I
couldn't think of it.
Hope that helps you to recover. Cheers!
Rowland McDonnell
> > Please don't be. I'm inclined to make mistakes and a mistake *this*
> > stupid - well... Oh dear. Oh dear me. Oh dear oh dear oh dear how
> > *did* I manage this one? <sigh> Idiot child.
> >
> > > but moon is certainly NOT 'Schwindel' in
> > > German. It's 'der Mond'.
> >
> > (dur. I knew that)
> >
> > > 'Schwindel' is vertigo.
> >
> > Moonshine, if my Langenschiedt is to be believed (or rather, the entry
> > for moonshine says Schwindel, but the entry for Schwindel says vertigo).
> >
> > Rowland.
> > (who must have been very tired to make *that* mistake; but if you saw
> > the formatting of the dictionary, you'd see how it could have been done)
> >
> Hi Rowland,
>
> I don't know where this thread is leading us to,
Nor me - but it's a pleasant chat.
> but you certainly shouldn't
> worry - I know this kind of mistake only too well, believe me, and I know
> the feeling afterwards - all hot and blushing.
<grin> That's the one.
> Well. Talking about
> 'moonshine', this can be 'Schwindel' in German indeed, but only in an
> idiomatic sense of the English word;
I see.
> the literal translation would be
> 'Mondschein' (which does not carry the same idiomatic connotations in
> German).
Righto - thanks.
> As a matter of fact I kept wondering where you got your mistaken
> translation from - I knew it had to be some slight mistake like this, but I
> couldn't think of it.
>
> Hope that helps you to recover. Cheers!
[snip]
<smile> Thank you!
Rowland.
Ben Brumfield
> Moonshine, if my Langenschiedt is to be believed (or rather, the entry
> for moonshine says Schwindel, but the entry for Schwindel says vertigo).
>
Interesting. I've never heard the word "moonshine" spoken to mean
anything other than bootleg whiskey -- does it mean "vertigo" in the
UK?
> (who must have been very tired to make *that* mistake; but if you saw
> the formatting of the dictionary, you'd see how it could have been done)
I can believe it. I once mistranslated "gall bladder" as "daughter"
to the immense amusement of my professor and class.
-Ben
Rowland McDonnell
> real-addr...@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:
>
> > Moonshine, if my Langenschiedt is to be believed (or rather, the entry
> > for moonshine says Schwindel, but the entry for Schwindel says vertigo).
> >
> Interesting. I've never heard the word "moonshine" spoken to mean
> anything other than bootleg whiskey -- does it mean "vertigo" in the
> UK?
No - my Concise Oxford tells me there are two definitions <checking
carefully that he's not cocking up again>:
1) foolish or unrealistic ideas or expectations
2) illicitly distilled or smuggled alcoholic liquor
I'm not sure what sort of moonshine `Schwindel' is. I suspect that the
average Brit isn't aware of the COD def. 1 of `moonshine'.
> > (who must have been very tired to make *that* mistake; but if you saw
> > the formatting of the dictionary, you'd see how it could have been done)
>
> I can believe it. I once mistranslated "gall bladder" as "daughter"
> to the immense amusement of my professor and class.
<chuckle>
Rowland.