1984-what happened to Julia?please help
baaa...@my-deja.com
Ministry of love did to Julia.
"Her face was sallower, and there was a long scar, partly hidden by
the hair, across the temple...her waist had grown thicker and, in a
surprising way, had stiffened."
What did the Ministry of love do to cause these phsical changes in
Julia? Did they put the Mask of rats on her?
Any help is appreciated :)
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Before you buy.
Uke
I've heard people talking about this every so often.
Orwell doesn't give any specifics. The implication is that
she had to face whatever it was that she feared the most.
Probably she was beaten,m starved, and tortured, Like
Winston and everyone else, as a prelude, which would
account for the sallow look and the scar. But what was it
that she feared? Hard to say, because Orwell never gives
us too many clues to her deep inside feelings. She's
rebellious, she likes sex, she hates authority and
hypocrisy, but what she hates physically isn't really
brought out. I don't think it's rats, either.
Maybe one clue--when O'Brien is questioning her and
Winston, she refuses to agree to leave Winston if it
becomes necessary. Perhaps her deepest fears are of
lonliness. Maybe they isolated her as part of it, locking
her inside with machinery in a small space.
===========================
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Martha Bridegam
Uke wrote:
> In article <8mqp2p$266$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, baaahhh01@my-
> deja.com wrote:
> > I just finished reading George Orwell's 1984, and I'm
> > not sure what the
> > Ministry of love did to Julia.
> > "Her face was sallower, and there was a long
> > scar, partly hidden by
> > the hair, across the temple...her waist had grown
> > thicker and, in a
> > surprising way, had stiffened."...
>
> I've heard people talking about this every so often.
> Orwell doesn't give any specifics. The implication is that
> she had to face whatever it was that she feared the most....But what was it
> that she feared? ...
First, thank your lucky stars that you think of political torture as a subject of recreational curiosity.
Then go have a look at http://www.amnesty.org/ .
/MAB
Iain
baaa...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8mqp2p$266$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I just finished reading George Orwell's 1984, and I'm not sure what the
>Ministry of love did to Julia.
>
> "Her face was sallower, and there was a long scar, partly hidden by
>the hair, across the temple...her waist had grown thicker and, in a
>surprising way, had stiffened."
>
>Julia? Did they put the Mask of rats on her?
>
> Any help is appreciated :)
>
What happened to her was pretty much the same as what happened to Winston,
beaten, tortured and interrogated, "I betrayed you" as did Winston to her.
I think Julia's form changed for the same reasons Winstons did. Winston was
also pretty bulky by the time he left the ministry.
Uke
> political torture as a subject of recreational
> curiosity.
> Then go have a look at http://www.amnesty.org/ .
> /MAB
1984 is a book about what happens to people when they turn
off their curiosity. I oppose any politics that sneers at
curiosity or intellectual discussion. I don't think that
discussions of literature makes political torture any more
acceptable and, yes, I do know that people still torture
one another today. Discussing 1984 isn't going to encourage
that.
I will now go look at the Amnesty web site.
=============================
Mrgregorio
Uke wrote in message <023aa61e...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com>...
>> First, thank your lucky stars that you think of
>> political torture as a subject of recreational
>> curiosity.
>> Then go have a look at http://www.amnesty.org/ .
>> /MAB
>
>1984 is a book about what happens to people when they turn
>off their curiosity. I oppose any politics that sneers at
>curiosity or intellectual discussion. I don't think that
>discussions of literature makes political torture any more
>acceptable and, yes, I do know that people still torture
>one another today. Discussing 1984 isn't going to encourage
>that.
>
>I will now go look at the Amnesty web site.
I just reread Martha's post and I don't believe she was taunting you (right
Martha?), but I agree that the Amnesty site is well worth a visit. The stuff
that 'still goes on' can become increasingly unthinkable the more modern we
are supposed to be, and yet it is very real whatever millenium it happens to
be.
baaa...@my-deja.com
baaa...@my-deja.com
Uke <lawrence...@gobi.com.invalid> wrote:
> In article <8mqp2p$266$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, baaahhh01@my-
> deja.com wrote:
> > not sure what the
> > Ministry of love did to Julia.
> > "Her face was sallower, and there was a long
> > scar, partly hidden by
> > the hair, across the temple...her waist had grown
> > thicker and, in a
> > surprising way, had stiffened."
> > What did the Ministry of love do to cause these
> > phsical changes in
> > Julia? Did they put the Mask of rats on her?
> > Any help is appreciated :)
> Orwell doesn't give any specifics. The implication is that
> Probably she was beaten,m starved, and tortured, Like
> Winston and everyone else, as a prelude, which would
> account for the sallow look and the scar. But what was it
> that she feared? Hard to say, because Orwell never gives
> us too many clues to her deep inside feelings. She's
> rebellious, she likes sex, she hates authority and
> hypocrisy, but what she hates physically isn't really
> brought out. I don't think it's rats, either.
>
> Maybe one clue--when O'Brien is questioning her and
> Winston, she refuses to agree to leave Winston if it
> becomes necessary. Perhaps her deepest fears are of
> lonliness. Maybe they isolated her as part of it, locking
> her inside with machinery in a small space.
>
> ===========================
>
related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is
Beautiful
>
Thank you.:)
Stephen LaRose
the thing he feared the most. The same was probably done to Julia under
torture and investigation ... it probably wasn't the same thing (we're all
scared of something, but rarely are we, deep down inside, scared of the same
thing) but it probably had the same traumatic effect on her.
Stephen LaRose
Fort Qu'Appelle SK
Martha Bridegam
Stephen LaRose wrote:
> Put it this way: Under interrogation and torture, Winston Smith had to face
> the thing he feared the most. The same was probably done to Julia under
> torture and investigation ... it probably wasn't the same thing (we're all
> scared of something, but rarely are we, deep down inside, scared of the same
> thing) but it probably had the same traumatic effect on her.
I think the more important psychological and political point might be that you
have been defeated when you are willing to have the police hurt someone you
love instead of yourself.
/MAB
Alexei Gavrilov
I am from Russia (ex-USSR), and I read 1984 sth like 7 years ago.
I was laughing while reading it, and crying afterwards.
You guys wouldn't believe how SIMILAR it is!
May be somebody knows: did Orwell ever visited Russia / USSR?
Alex
Martha Bridegam
John Rennie wrote:
> "Alexei Gavrilov" <a.gav...@scientist.com> wrote in message
> news:14in5.8947$w%1.37...@news.chello.be...
> Alexei, now read Homage to Catalonia!
Apart from having seen Stalinist terror in Spain, he was a good friend
of Arthur Koestler and exchanged many letters with Gleb Struve. I'm not
sure what exactly those two had been through (am sure someone else knows
better), but in any case they must have been able to give him a good
idea of the political climate in Soviet Russia.
Of course, a lot of Winston Smith's job comes from Orwell's own work for
the BBC... ;--)
/MAB
John Rennie
Tom Deveson
>> "Alexei Gavrilov" <a.gav...@scientist.com> wrote in message
>> news:14in5.8947$w%1.37...@news.chello.be...
>> > Hi, everyone!
>> >
>> > I am from Russia (ex-USSR), and I read 1984 sth like 7 years ago.
>> > I was laughing while reading it, and crying afterwards.
>> > You guys wouldn't believe how SIMILAR it is!
>> >
>> > May be somebody knows: did Orwell ever visited Russia / USSR?
>Apart from having seen Stalinist terror in Spain, he was a good friend
>of Arthur Koestler and exchanged many letters with Gleb Struve. I'm not
>sure what exactly those two had been through (am sure someone else knows
>better), but in any case they must have been able to give him a good
>idea of the political climate in Soviet Russia.
I found reference to an article by Jennifer McDowell, in the Univ. of
California Graduate Journal 1. 1962 pp12-19.
It's called "1984 and Soviet Reality" and compares the novel with the
published statements about the USSR which would have been available to
Orwell.
I've no idea what the article says. Is it at all likely that any library
near you, Martha, might carry a 38-year-old journal?
There was such a lot of discussion and argument about the USSR that
Orwell must have had many conversations about it with people from
England who had been there.
One would have been Malcolm Muggeridge, who published *Winter in Moscow*
in 1934, after spending two years in the USSR as a journalist. He'd gone
there as a true believer, intending to stay, and was shocked by the
contrast between utopian claims and terrible realities, especially the
famine in the Ukraine and the deaths of countless peasants which went
nearly unreported in the West.
Another would have been Jane Degras, the (then) wife of Mark Benney, who
was an expert on Soviet foreign policy and edited collections of
documents on the USSR. Orwell occasionally moved in her LSE-educated
circle and would have heard there from people who had been to the USSR,
spoke enough Russian to make at least some sense of what they heard,
were politically aware of theories of the state, marxist theory,
trotskyite theory, etc, and were passionately involved in arguments
about it.
Just to answer Alexei's specific question -- Orwell never went to the
USSR.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Martha Bridegam
Tom Deveson wrote:
>
> I found reference to an article by Jennifer McDowell, in the Univ. of
> California Graduate Journal 1. 1962 pp12-19.
> It's called "1984 and Soviet Reality" and compares the novel with the
> published statements about the USSR which would have been available to
> Orwell.
Have just checked the University of California online catalog & there are a
few publications with similar titles. But can you tell, is it an alumni
publication or maybe a publication by a graduate students' organization? And
emanating from which campus? My best guesses are UC-Berkeley and UCLA.
Thx.
/MAB