New Orwell biography
Martha Bridegam
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/10/01/RV13354.DTL
.
Has anyone actually seen the book yet? And, Selene, is this the guy who
wrote the article we discussed a couple of months back? Sounds like he
defends the Little List a little too cheerfully.
/MAB
Martha Bridegam
Martha Bridegam wrote:
This is an article by Meyers about some of his research -- interviewing cranky 80-year-olds
about the Spanish Civil War.
http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/17/apr99/meyers.htm
/MAB
selen...@my-deja.com
jo...@sirius.com wrote:
> The Jeffrey Meyers book is out -- a not very informative review is at:
>
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/1
0/01/RV13354.DTL
> .
>
> Has anyone actually seen the book yet? And, Selene, is this the guy
who
> wrote the article we discussed a couple of months back? Sounds like he
> defends the Little List a little too cheerfully.
Thanks for this. The guy's last name was Lucas who said that "Orwell was
no socialist" in the New Statesman. I have not heard any more about his
bio. I doubt he'll be calling the "list" commendable.
JV
>
> /MAB
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
selen...@my-deja.com
jo...@sirius.com wrote:
>
>
> Martha Bridegam wrote:
>
> > The Jeffrey Meyers book is out -- a not very informative review is
at:
> >
> >
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/1
0/01/RV13354.DTL
> > .
> >
> > Has anyone actually seen the book yet? And, Selene, is this the guy
who
> > wrote the article we discussed a couple of months back? Sounds like
he
> > defends the Little List a little too cheerfully.
> >
>
> This is an article by Meyers about some of his research --
interviewing cranky 80-year-olds
> about the Spanish Civil War.
>
> http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/17/apr99/meyers.htm
Gore Vidal was on C-span for three hours yesterday, I caught the whole
thing. They then had Kimball's "Long March" (advertised on the homepage
of New Criterion) I take it that NC is a neo-con publication? Never
heard of it before.
Martha Bridegam
selen...@my-deja.com wrote:
Looks pretty conservative anyhow.
Alan's page has Mr. Meyers' review of the "Lost Writings" book, as written
for the __National Review__. See
http://www.seas.upenn.edu:8080/~allport/chestnut/lostwrtg.htm . But it's a
pretty sensible review that doesn't go out of its way to be ideological.
Looking forward to this biography.
/MAB
Martha Bridegam
http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
and another review in Salon:
http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
(Both courtesy of Arts & Letters Daily).
/MAB
Jack Cerf
has no understanding of the relationship between the POUM and CP in
Catalonia, and who is capable of howlers like describing Blair's father
as "often absent." One shouldn't wonder that he was, since Blair pere
was administering opium exports from India while young Eric was at
school in England.
Hitchens piece tells us what we already know, which is that Hitch
regards himself as the Orwell of the present day. This passage:
"I submit that it is for one principal reason: Not only did he get the
chief issues of the 20th century right, morally and politically
speaking, but he did so unaided. To the torrents of lies and propaganda
he opposed a solitary typewriter, backed by no party or patron or big
publisher, and managed to witness for the integrity of the individual
intellect. And though it is the writerly faculty that survives, he also
showed physical courage along the way . . . "
is what Hitchens would like to have said about him 50 years hence, just
as GO's description of Dickens as "a man who was generously angry"
turned out to be self descriptive. A noble ambition, but scant hope.
Martha Bridegam
Jack Cerf wrote:
> In article <39EB3DF9...@sirius.com>,
> jo...@sirius.com wrote:
> > Hitchens on Meyers, at
> >
> > http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
> >
> > and another review in Salon:
> >
> > http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
> >
> > (Both courtesy of Arts & Letters Daily).
> >
> Thank you. The Salon piece appears to have been written by a moron who
> has no understanding of the relationship between the POUM and CP in
> Catalonia,...
Not a moron, but maybe an expert on a different face of St. George.
(Author of "An Underachiever's Diary"? Sounds like a Comstock fan.)
Expect he re-read H to C in a hurry.
Good grief, "Embroiled in Communist Party bickering"? Only in the sense
that Salem witch trial defendants were embroiled in Calvinist bickering.
/MAB
Jack Cerf
jo...@sirius.com wrote:
>
>
> Jack Cerf wrote:
> (cuts)
> > > Thank you. The Salon piece appears to have been written by a
moron who
> > has no understanding of the relationship between the POUM and CP in
> > Catalonia,...
>
> Good grief, "Embroiled in Communist Party bickering"? Only in the
sense
> that Salem witch trial defendants were embroiled in Calvinist
bickering.
Nice.
Tom Deveson
>Hitchens on Meyers, at
>
>http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
>
>and another review in Salon:
>
>http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
And for John Carey's review (he says it's the best biography yet) go to
and click on the 'Books' strip on the left.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Mrgregorio
Jack Cerf wrote in message <Hitch
>regards himself as the Orwell of the present day. This passage:
>
>"I submit that it is for one principal reason: Not only did he get the
>chief issues of the 20th century right, morally and politically
>speaking, but he did so unaided. To the torrents of lies and propaganda
>he opposed a solitary typewriter, backed by no party or patron or big
>publisher, and managed to witness for the integrity of the individual
>intellect. And though it is the writerly faculty that survives, he also
>showed physical courage along the way . . . "
>
>is what Hitchens would like to have said about him 50 years hence
I imagine so. But his claim that GO was never mean isn't something I could
credit Hitchens with - neither pulls any punches, but listen to Hitchens
here-
"When he was on his deathbed, the glamorous but sinister Sonia Brownell
agreed to become his wife. It was she who tyrannized researchers and
potential biographers and anthologists for many years, before expiring as a
thwarted and embittered boozer in a shabby Parisian exile."
That's not very nice!
Mrgregorio
Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
>Martha Bridegam writes
>>Hitchens on Meyers, at
>>
>>http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
>>
>>and another review in Salon:
>>
>>http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
>
>And for John Carey's review (he says it's the best biography yet) go to
>
>www.sunday-times.co.uk
That was an interesting one, too, very different from that of Hitchens. Was
Carey saying something perceptive or dopey with:
'He never lost faith in his personal brand of democratic socialism. It was a
strange creed, since it assumed that, given the choice, almost everyone
would share his values, otherwise it would not be democratic.'
Since when was 'democratic socialism' taken so literally as to be understood
as an oxymoron?
Tom Deveson
>But his claim that GO was never mean isn't something I could
>credit Hitchens with - neither pulls any punches, but listen to Hitchens
>here-
>"When he was on his deathbed, the glamorous but sinister Sonia Brownell
>agreed to become his wife. It was she who tyrannized researchers and
>potential biographers and anthologists for many years, before expiring as a
>thwarted and embittered boozer in a shabby Parisian exile."
>
>That's not very nice!
When David Plante describes Sonia Orwell in hospital towards the end of
her life, he says this:
"...I asked simply, 'How are you, Sonia?' 'Well,' she said, 'either I'll
survive or I'll die, and though of course we're all faced with either,
in my case the either/or will be decided in a very short time. Now tell
me about the house in Italy.' "
He also says that she bequeathed her organs to the hospital for
research. Though I agree with Jack that it's somehow indecent to discuss
all this, it does seem worth recalling the stoicism and altruism
described by someone who knew her rather than the thwarted bitterness
alleged by someone who, I think, didn't.
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Tom Deveson
<mrgre...@yahoo.com> writes
>I imagine so. But his claim that GO was never mean isn't something I could
Paul Sebastianelli
Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
>Martha Bridegam writes
>>Hitchens on Meyers, at
>>
>>http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
>>
>>and another review in Salon:
>>
>>http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
>
>And for John Carey's review (he says it's the best biography yet) go to
>
>www.sunday-times.co.uk
>
Meyers appeared in Toronto at the international festival
of authors today where he was to speak about Orwell.
It was very interesting. He said that . . .
Ok , I didn't go. I had planned on it all week and was quite
looking forward to it, and in fact I should be impressing you
all with my first hand expetise. However, a night of heavy drinking and
a sore back caused me to alter my plans.
Please forgive me.
paul.
Martha Bridegam
Paul Sebastianelli wrote:
> Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
> >Martha Bridegam writes
> >>Hitchens on Meyers, at
> >>
> >>http://wwics.si.edu/WQ/WQCURR/WQBKPER/BOOK-1.HTM
> >>
> >>and another review in Salon:
> >>
> >>http://www.salon.com/books/review/2000/09/27/meyers/index.html
> >
> >And for John Carey's review (he says it's the best biography yet) go to
> >
> >www.sunday-times.co.uk
> >
> >and click on the 'Books' strip on the left.
It made "Arts & Letters Daily" s'morning -- the third Meyers biography
review to do so. Someone over there must have an Orwell bug.
>
>
> Meyers appeared in Toronto at the international festival
> of authors today where he was to speak about Orwell.
> It was very interesting. He said that . . .
> Ok , I didn't go. I had planned on it all week and was quite
> looking forward to it, and in fact I should be impressing you
> all with my first hand expetise. However, a night of heavy drinking and
> a sore back caused me to alter my plans.
>
> Please forgive me.
If it's any consolation, someplace Orwell goes on about the advantages of
the hangover, more or less on the theory that excesses are a natural part
of life but that it is also natural they should have consequences. That old
puritan.
Seriously, condolences on the hangover, best wishes for a speedy recovery,
& no worries abt missing the speech.
/MAB
Tom Deveson
>Seriously, condolences on the hangover, best wishes for a speedy recovery,
>& no worries abt missing the speech.
Ditto. We wouldn't even have known about it if you hadn't told us, Paul
-- your wintry conscience doing overtime?
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Paul Sebastianelli
Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
> Martha Bridegam writes
>>& no worries abt missing the speech.
>
>Ditto. We wouldn't even have known about it if you hadn't told us, Paul
D'OH!!!!
>-- your wintry conscience doing overtime?
heh heh . . . always. I felt a certain obligation to do my part to keep
the conversation around here at it's usual level of intellectual,
uh, goodliness.
btw, I'm trying to find an Orwell quote about the importance of
education if one does not believe in violent revolution, but I
cannot for the life of me locate it. Did I dream it?
paul.
Martha Bridegam
Paul Sebastianelli wrote:
> btw, I'm trying to find an Orwell quote about the importance of
> education if one does not believe in violent revolution, but I
> cannot for the life of me locate it. Did I dream it?
No, I remember reading something like that, too. IIRC it was in a book review
somewhere in the 'forties, or anyway an article commenting on someone else's
view of the world, and GO was opening the topic with one of his "...of course
anyone who has thought about it will agree..." knowing generalizations, saying
that, because this (writer? politician?) didn't believe in revolution, he
instead believed strongly in making political changes by way of education.
(That's a hell of a thing to say, btw -- surely there are other human
activities that change political situations.) I've been through all the book
reviews in CEJL Vols. 2-4, & also the CW's helpful lists of London Letter & As
I Please Topics, but thus far can't find it. I'm not sure what index entry
would make a good starting point for searching the __Complete Works__ further.
Happy to look again, though, if you can remember anything else about the
article that might help with the search.
/MAB
Alan Allport
news:39FE7B0F...@sirius.com...
> > btw, I'm trying to find an Orwell quote about the importance of
> > education if one does not believe in violent revolution, but I
> > cannot for the life of me locate it. Did I dream it?
>
> No, I remember reading something like that, too.
Try _Charles Dickens_.
Alan.
Martha Bridegam
Alan Allport wrote:
Not unless there's a particular phrase I'm missing. He calls Dickens a
sharp social critic who at the same time did not necessarily want
fundamental changes in his society -- but when he gets to Dickens on
education, he seems to be mainly criticizing Dickens for not imagining
what education could be other than a kinder, gentler form of the
rote/regurgitation method. Seriously -- am I missing something there?
What I think I remember is a shock-value dismissive comment, in a
shorter & sharper-edged piece of writing. Have just been through the
1937-1939 CW stuff with no luck.
This is turning into an annoying little mystery, dammit.
/MAB
Alan Allport
> > > > btw, I'm trying to find an Orwell quote about the importance of
> > > > education if one does not believe in violent revolution, but I
> > > > cannot for the life of me locate it. Did I dream it?
> > >
> > > No, I remember reading something like that, too.
> >
> > Try _Charles Dickens_.
>
> Not unless there's a particular phrase I'm missing.
I am fairly sure the phrase you're looking for is in there, but I have no
copy on hand to check.
Alan.
Tom Deveson
<all...@ee.upenn.edu> writes
>> Not unless there's a particular phrase I'm missing.
>
>I am fairly sure the phrase you're looking for is in there, but I have no
>copy on hand to check.
"If you hate violence and don't believe in politics, the only remedy
remaining is education. Perhaps society is past praying for, but there
is always hope for the individual human being, if you can catch him
young enough..."
From about two-thirds of the way through the first section of the
Dickens essay. Is this it?
Tom
--
Tom Deveson
Alan Allport
news:fSh+hBAUwy$5E...@devesons.demon.co.uk...
> From about two-thirds of the way through the first section of the
> Dickens essay. Is this it?
That's the one.
Alan.
Graeme Burk
> Has anyone actually seen the book yet?
Yes, today in fact. It's quite slender compared to Shelden or Crick's
tomes. I haven't bought it yet but a cursory read-through of the latter
parts of the book turned up my eyebrows at a couple of points-- he
asserts that Julia in Nineteen Eighty-Four was a thinly disguised Sonia
Bromwell (and apparently the frigidness of Anti-Sex league and Julia's
nymphomania were the reality and fantasy of Sonia respectively). I
hadn't heard that one before. Actually, he pretty much takes Sonia's
reputation and bashes it with a tire-iron. Not that's actually new--
I've heard it done even more vitriolically elsewhere; even Shelden was
doing it in a somewhat polite manner in his authorised biography-- but
its done with a gusto reminiscent of Christopher Hitchens on an off
day. He also dismisses Crick's biography as dry and awful--which makes
him my hero anyway--and states with some equivocation that Shelden's
was "better".
It's probably the least academic biography of Orwell yet. It's written
with a lively style and pithy, evocative, phrasing-- the description of
the treatment for Orwell's TB is not for the squeamish-- I think it's
definitely worth the $40 Canadian for it.
Graeme Burk
hi all, I seem to be back...
Graeme Burk
> Sounds like he
> defends the Little List a little too cheerfully.
He does even in the biography. He says that Orwell didn't want
communists writing propaganda and that in the context of 1947 it was
understandable and even perhaps admirable.
Graeme Burk
I thought it was a little odd...
Graeme Burk
Martha Bridegam
Alan Allport wrote:
Yep. Many thx.
/MAB
Martha Bridegam
> It's probably the least academic biography of Orwell yet. It's written
> with a lively style and pithy, evocative, phrasing-- the description of
> the treatment for Orwell's TB is not for the squeamish-- I think it's
> definitely worth the $40 Canadian for it.
I don't know -- writing for a non-academic audience doesn't give
permission to make unproveable generalizations, and there are a lot of
them in this book.
> Graeme Burk
> hi all, I seem to be back...
Welcome back, Graeme.
You *are* the earliest still-known abgo contributor, aren't you?
I know we've asked you about this before, but can you tell us anything
about where abgo comes from or what it was like before Alan moved in in
early '98?
Since you were last here, I've found out that ABGO seems to have been
founded on March 30, 1996 by someone named "z@z.z" and purportedly
approved by someone named "lmno...@aol.com," in what a Usenet honcho
named Bill Hazelrig (ha...@nwu.edu) promptly criticized as being a forged
message. So basically we were founded anonymously & the information about
our founding doesn't help explain who first created a community here. Any
memories from '96 or '97 for us?
Thx,
/MAB
booiled guts of byrds
wrote:
>Since you were last here, I've found out that ABGO seems to have been
>founded on March 30, 1996 by someone named "z@z.z" and purportedly
>approved by someone named "lmno...@aol.com," in what a Usenet honcho
>named Bill Hazelrig (ha...@nwu.edu) promptly criticized as being a forged
>message. So basically we were founded anonymously & the information about
>our founding doesn't help explain who first created a community here. Any
>memories from '96 or '97 for us?
shades of Giles Goat-Boy...
Martha Bridegam
huh?
/MAB
John Rennie
>
>
> booiled guts of byrds
Huh!
Paul Sebastianelli
Tom Deveson wrote in message ...
Sure is. Many thanks. Once again Tom has pulled one out of
his . . . uh . . . hat. Three cheers!
paul.
boiled guts of byrds
>Huh!
>
My mistake in assuming that some of you may be familiar with post-1949
fiction.
The point (badly made) of my post was to the similarities of the
coming into being of a.b.g-o, as described in a previous post and the
illegitimate/mysterious birth of Giles Goat-Boy, hero of John Barth's
novel, which that description brought to mind.
> <Jo...@rennie.2000.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>Huh!
>
Boiled guts of byrds is a line in the officially unreleased version of
Bob Dylans "'Desolation Row"
"now he's spoonfeeding Casanova the boiled guts of byrds, then he'll
torture him with self-confidence and poison him with words"
Martha Bridegam
boiled guts of byrds wrote:
> >"Martha Bridegam" <jo...@sirius.com> wrote in message
>
> >Huh!
> >
> My mistake in assuming that some of you may be familiar with post-1949
> fiction.
ouch. Sorry to be dense.
>
>
> > <Jo...@rennie.2000.greatxscape.net> wrote:
>
> >Huh!
> >
> Boiled guts of byrds is a line in the officially unreleased version of
> Bob Dylans "'Desolation Row"
>
> "now he's spoonfeeding Casanova the boiled guts of byrds, then he'll
> torture him with self-confidence and poison him with words"
Wot officially unreleased version? Any other variations? And who's "he"?
I thought that passage was about "they."
/MAB
Alan Allport
news:%xML5.405897$Gh.12...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Sure is. Many thanks. Once again Tom has pulled one out of
> his . . . uh . . . hat. Three cheers!
You're welcome...
Alan.
Graeme Burk
jo...@sirius.com wrote:
> Graeme Burk wrote:
> I don't know -- writing for a non-academic audience doesn't give
> permission to make unproveable generalizations, and there are a lot of
> them in this book.
Oh yes, I agree. And I have to say I winced when I saw the allegations
about Sonia being frigid and being the model for Mollie and Julia in AF
and Nineteen Eighty-Four without any footnotes.
But I have to admit, I still like the gossipy, non-academic style. It
feels less stodgy than Shelden, whose biography of Orwell I admire very
much. And it feels more like an actual accounting of a human being,
which puts it head and shoulders above Crick...
> Welcome back, Graeme.
>
> You *are* the earliest still-known abgo contributor, aren't you?
>
> I know we've asked you about this before, but can you tell us anything
> about where abgo comes from or what it was like before Alan moved in
in
> early '98?
>
> Since you were last here, I've found out that ABGO seems to have been
> founded on March 30, 1996 by someone named "z@z.z" and purportedly
> approved by someone named "lmno...@aol.com," in what a Usenet honcho
> named Bill Hazelrig (ha...@nwu.edu) promptly criticized as being a
forged
> message. So basically we were founded anonymously & the information
about
> our founding doesn't help explain who first created a community here.
Any
> memories from '96 or '97 for us?
I'm fairly sure I was first on ABGO pretty much near the start (I had
TIN on my university system and every day I'd be asked if I wanted to
subscribe to whatever new groups were created as they came up). It was
like it was now I suppose-- a core group talking intently about
particular Orwell books and then answering the questions of whatever
high school students were doing an essay on Animal Farm and Trotsky or
Nineteen Eighty-Four as a cold war text. Maybe there was slightly fewer
current events being discussed, but that's about it.
I don't remember much about it. There was another person from York
University (in Toronto, where I was attending at the time) on the group
at the same time as I was-- he might have been a professor or a grad
student since he had his name as part of his e-mail address. He was
quite involved back then and we had some polite correspondence.
I tried to find something on dejanews before they took their archive
away and they didn't have anything before '98. I'm sure I kept some of
the postings that were made to the group back then, I'll have a look
around.
Graeme Burk
My life is measured in coffeespoons and 1.44MB floppy disks...
Martha Bridegam
Graeme Burk wrote:
>
> Any
> > memories from '96 or '97 for us?
>
> I'm fairly sure I was first on ABGO pretty much near the start (I had
> TIN on my university system and every day I'd be asked if I wanted to
> subscribe to whatever new groups were created as they came up). It was
> like it was now I suppose-- a core group talking intently about
> particular Orwell books and then answering the questions of whatever
> high school students were doing an essay on Animal Farm and Trotsky or
> Nineteen Eighty-Four as a cold war text. Maybe there was slightly fewer
> current events being discussed, but that's about it.
>
> I don't remember much about it. There was another person from York
> University (in Toronto, where I was attending at the time) on the group
> at the same time as I was-- he might have been a professor or a grad
> student since he had his name as part of his e-mail address. He was
> quite involved back then and we had some polite correspondence.
>
> I tried to find something on dejanews before they took their archive
> away and they didn't have anything before '98. I'm sure I kept some of
> the postings that were made to the group back then, I'll have a look
> around.
>
> Graeme Burk
> My life is measured in coffeespoons and 1.44MB floppy disks...
Alan, any chance of an FAQ entry on this, especially if we can dig up an
Earliest Known Thread?
/MAB
Alan Allport
> Alan, any chance of an FAQ entry on this, especially if we can dig up an
> Earliest Known Thread?
Isn't this all a bit antiquarian?
Alan.
Martha Bridegam
Alan Allport wrote:
Just interested in keeping up institutional memory, is all. It always seems
to help in student organizations, for example, so why not here? I can
remember you complaining during a thin period in early '98 that the level of
discussion was mainly "1984 Is Kool," but I don't know how the place was when
you found it, & I also think it would be really kool if we could invite
Graeme's early correspondent to come back & contribute. (I kind of have a
vision in the back of my head of all us maniacs assembling on Jura one of
these days, but maybe that would be a bad idea after all.)
/MAB