Lewis's Reference to "The 7 Genders"
Douglas Gresham
Richard Duncan <rdu...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the Chronicles or
>the Space Trilogy) one of the characters made a reference to 'the seven genders'
>but I cannot find it now.
>
>Did I dream this?
>
>If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had in mind? I
>think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
>
>Any response would be appreciated.
Richard,
This is a new one on me, but was Jack talking about gender in the
sense of language, or in the sense of biology? I do remember Jack
saying, in comment on Science Fiction I think,that no one had
successfully created a third sex, other than the one which we all
know already.
Thus I wonder if "seven genders" might have any relevance at all to
physiology, though in some languages it may have some relevance to
philology. The gender structure of words being far more complex
than that of people or animals.
Part of the problem is that the word sex has now almost become a
four-letter word, and people tend to use gender instead. I wonder
how long it will be before that becomes a dirty word too, and they
revert to saying sex.
Blessings,
Doug.
Richard Duncan
Annabel Smyth
In article <319C0E...@zoomnet.net>
rdu...@zoomnet.net "Richard Duncan" writes:
> Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the
> Chronicles or
> the Space Trilogy) one of the characters made a reference to 'the seven
> genders'
> but I cannot find it now.
>
> Did I dream this?
>
No, you didn't. It comes in "That Hideous Strength" when the Oyaresu
are infilling Merlin: "The three gods who had already met in the Blue
Room were less unlike humanity than the two whome they still awaited. In
Viritrilbia and Venus and Malacandra were represented those two of the
Seven genders which bear a certain analogy to the biological sexes and
can therefore be in some measure understood by men. It would not be so
with those who were now preparing to descend. These also doubtless had
their genders, but we have no clue to them. These would be mightier
energies: ancient eldils, steersmen of giant worlds which have never
from the beginning been subdued into the sweet humilations of organic
life."
> If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had in
> mind? I think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
>
> Any response would be appreciated.
I imagine it was just to instil a sense of dread.....
--
Annabel Smyth Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The countryside roundabout was gorgeous and extravagantly green. You
could be forgiven for thinking that the principle [sic] industry of
Britain is the manufacture of chlorophyll" Bill Bryson
Katherine Rossner
Richard Duncan (rdu...@zoomnet.net) wrote:
: Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the Chronicles or
: but I cannot find it now.
: Did I dream this?
: If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had in mind? I
: think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
You didn't dream it. Here is the passage (unless there's another one, but
I don't think so). I don't know what he had in mind, but would guess
that it came out of some private Inklings discussion.
This is from THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, Chapter Fifteen, "The Descent of the
Gods", section 1. (This section is probably my very favorite short piece
of CSL's writing; it's because I've read it aloud to friends so often that
I recalled the reference.)
"The three gods who had already met in the Blue Room were less unlike
humanity than the two whom they still awaited. In Viritrilbia and Venus
[weird: why didn't he say Perelandra here?!] and Malacandra were
represented those two of the Seven Genders which bear a certain anaology
to the biological sexes and can therefore be in some measure understood by
men. It would not be so with those who were now preparing to descend.
These also doubtless had their genders, but we have no clue to them...."
Katherine
--
Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche is chaunge |
Withinne a thousand yere, and wordes tho | J.Katherine Rossner
That hadden pris, now wonder nyce and straunge | j...@netcom.com
Us thinketh hem, and yit they spake hem so. -- Chaucer |
Paul Wheeler
> Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the
> Chronicles or the Space Trilogy) one of the characters made a reference
> to 'the seven genders' but I cannot find it now.
>
> Did I dream this?
>
> If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had
> in mind? I think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
>
I think it comes in "That Hideous Strength" near the end. Each of he
planetary rulers is one of them, I seem to remember. Mars and Venus are
male and female, of course. Long time since I read it, though.
Somebody else may probably have something more accurate.
Tony Wheeler
Margaret R. Dean
In article <319C0E...@zoomnet.net>,
Richard Duncan <rdu...@zoomnet.net> wrote:
>Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the Chronicles or
>the Space Trilogy) one of the characters made a reference to 'the seven genders'
>but I cannot find it now.
>
>Did I dream this?
>
>If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had in mind? I
>think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
>
>Any response would be appreciated.
It is an obscure reference and Lewis himself didn't precisely say it --
that is, if it's the reference I think it is. If so, it's from the
Lewis/Kingsley Amis/Brian Aldiss interview "Unreal Estates," which is
reprinted in the essay/story collection OF OTHER WORLDS.
LEWIS: By the way, has any science fiction writer yet succeeded
in inventing a third sex? Apart from the third sex we all
know.
AMIS: Clifford Simak invented a set-up where there were seven
sexes.
LEWIS: How rare happy marriages must have been then!
ALDISS: Rather worth striving for perhaps.
LEWIS: Obviously when achieved they'd be wonderful.
(Laughter.)
I hope this helps you sleep at night. :)
--Margaret Dean
<marg...@access.digex.net>
Laddie Smith, II
In article <DrL7y...@cix.compulink.co.uk>, peew...@cix.compulink.co.uk ("Paul Wheeler") writes:
>> Am I losing it or what? I thought in one of Lewis's books (either the
>> Chronicles or the Space Trilogy) one of the characters made a reference
>> to 'the seven genders' but I cannot find it now.
>>
>> Did I dream this?
>>
>> If he did make such a reference, does anyone have any idea what he had
>> in mind? I think it was just an obscure, passing reference.
>>
>> Any response would be appreciated.
>
> planetary rulers is one of them, I seem to remember. Mars and Venus are
> male and female, of course. Long time since I read it, though.
>
> Somebody else may probably have something more accurate.
>
> Tony Wheeler
I believe this is correct, near the end of That Hideous Strength, when the gods
are descending to pass into Merlin...it is only a passing reference, I believe.
Jussi Piitulainen
> ... I do remember Jack saying, in comment on Science Fiction I
> think,that no one had successfully created a third sex, other than
> the one which we all know already.
That is in the taped discussion with Kingsley Amis and Brian Aldiss,
"Unreal estates" in Of This and Other Worlds, originally titled
"Establishment must die and rot" somewhere else.
I think they distinguish between sex and gender. They comment on the
difficulty of achieving a happy marriage in a world with seven sexes,
and how wonderful those would be.
But what is the third sex that we all know already? Am I being dense?
--
Peter Thomas Chattaway
Jussi Piitulainen (jpii...@polva.helsinki.fi) wrote:
: But what is the third sex that we all know already? Am I being dense?
I assume that was a reference to homosexuality.
--
Peter T. Chattaway | "God's place is the world, but the world is not
Culture Editor, | God's place." -- Sinead O'Connor
The Ubyssey | "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line
pet...@unixg.ubc.ca | somewhere." -- G.K. Chesterton
Andrew Rilstone
In article <JPIITULA.96...@polva.helsinki.fi>, Jussi Piitulainen
<jpii...@polva.helsinki.fi> writes
>But what is the third sex that we all know already? Am I being dense?
An old euphemism for homosexuals.
--
Andrew Rilstone and...@aslan.demon.co.uk
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Mark Merizan
> ... I do remember Jack saying, in comment on Science Fiction I
> think,that no one had successfully created a third sex, other than
> the one which we all know already.
I remember reading a short story, Asmov I think, where he had a race of
beings with 3 different sexes "Parental", "Intellectual" and "Emotional"
I belive. It worked fairly well.
--
mmer...@teleport.com, Mark Merizan
http://www.teleport.com/~mmerizan/
A ship in a harbor is safe.
But that is not what ships are built for.
-Shedd
Nicholas Young
In article <4ofi9s$6...@nadine.teleport.com>, mmer...@teleport.com (Mark
Merizan) wrote:
> > ... I do remember Jack saying, in comment on Science Fiction I
> > think,that no one had successfully created a third sex, other than
> > the one which we all know already.
>
> I remember reading a short story, Asmov I think, where he had a race of
> beings with 3 different sexes "Parental", "Intellectual" and "Emotional"
> I belive. It worked fairly well.
... just for information, and because I'm a pedant ...
The book (a novel, not a short story) is called "The Gods Themselves" and
the three sexes in the parallel universe are Parental, Rational and
Emotional. FWIW, I think it's one of Asimov's most imaginative
creations. No one that I can think of else has ever managed to create a
convincing relationship between three sexes; but I think Asimov's *does*
work.
Nicholas.
--
Views expressed are mine. Please mail anything important; if you have
trouble with the return address, try nich...@jessica.logica.co.uk.
"'Macbeth' is a play written by a man who, on this occasion at least,
if he had the talent, ought to have written a fairy tale." - JRRT.
Julia
mmer...@teleport.com (Mark Merizan) wrote:
>> ... I do remember Jack saying, in comment on Science Fiction I
>> think,that no one had successfully created a third sex, other than
>> the one which we all know already.
>
>I remember reading a short story, Asmov I think, where he had a race of
>beings with 3 different sexes "Parental", "Intellectual" and "Emotional"
>I belive. It worked fairly well.
Octavia Butler in the Xenogenesis trilogy introduced a race with
three genders. Two of them each provided chromosomes; it took
the third to combine the chromosomes and create the zygote.
(IIRC; if someone else remembers somewhat differently, please
correct me, it's been over a year since I last read any of that
trilogy.) It worked reasonably well.
Julia
Douglas Gresham
Julia <deg...@fc.net> wrote:
>Octavia Butler in the Xenogenesis trilogy introduced a race with
>three genders. Two of them each provided chromosomes; it took
>the third to combine the chromosomes and create the zygote.
>(IIRC; if someone else remembers somewhat differently, please
>correct me, it's been over a year since I last read any of that
>trilogy.) It worked reasonably well.
I think we are getting off the track here,I don't for a moment think that
Jack was referring to the biological characteristics of a third sex, but
the persoality characteristics. We can all write with some degree of
knowledge from the viewpoint of male or female, but who has successfully
written fromthe viewpoint of a third sex? This would be the epitome of
what we are looking for, but to do so would entail a Tolkenian depth and
attention to detail.
Blessings,
Doug.