Is Clarke gay?
Bentley
I've often wondered... forgive me if this is something everybody but me
knows...
But homosexuality is treated as commonplace by his characters in at least
a couple books (Imperial Earth and Songs of Distance Earth come to mind).
It COULD just be his eye for the future, predicting that we will become
less puritanical as time goes on, which sounds healthy to me; I've seen
the same question asked of David Gerrold (of C'htorr and Tribbles fame),
since his (futuristic) characters are equally ambivalent about the whole
orientation thing, and he (Gerrold) is apparently arrow-straight. I've
never heard of a Mrs. Clarke or any offspring.
Just curious.
Bentley
tah...@azstarnet.com
ben...@access5.digex.net (Bentley) wrote:
>I've often wondered... forgive me if this is something everybody but me
>knows...
>But homosexuality is treated as commonplace by his characters in at least
>a couple books
In a recent article/interview (mentioned in my previous post about
3001) mention is made of a Mrs. Clarke from whom he separated many
years ago.
Hayford Peirce
Robert Howe
ben...@access5.digex.net (Bentley) wrote:
>I've often wondered... forgive me if this is something everybody but me
>knows...
>But homosexuality is treated as commonplace by his characters in at least
>a couple books (Imperial Earth and Songs of Distance Earth come to mind).
I wondered the same thing - I remember a homosexual affair between
Walter Curnow and Max Brailowsky in 2010. However I think Clarke is
simply teaching the world to be more broad minded about matters
sexual, by including characters of various orientations. There is, I
recall, reference to heterosexual liaison in _A Fall of Moondust_ and
probably in plenty of other places besides.
Didn't Clarke write about zero-gravity sex in Profiles of the Future,
or is my memory playing me false?
--
Rob
rob...@dial.pipex.com
Cumbria, England
Edward Easton
In article <4trpa5$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, EAMalaga
<eama...@aol.com> writes
>I wondered the same thing many years ago, but I don't think Clarke is gay.
> He could be, but I doubt it. He was married once (umpty-ump years ago)
>for a brief time and that was it. I don't think he ever had a child.
>
>BTW, 2061 also has two gay characters who were friends of Heywood Floyd.
>I think their names were Jerry and Gerald, and they appear briefly before
>Floyd departs in his journey.
I happen to have just started reading 'Odyssey - the authorised
biography of ACC' by Neil McAleer. I've only got as far as the the early
'40s when ACC was in his early 20's and there's no mention of a wife so
far.
However I scanned quickly through the photos and there is one of
him and wife Marilyn as newlyweds in 1953 - so he did marry. No other
photos of any family, but then the book is very short of photos and
concentrates very much on the SF aspects of his life.
Incidentally, a failure to marry and/or produce children does
not automatically imply that someone is gay.
--
Edward Easton
Yeadon, Yorkshire, UK
David McIntosh
rob...@dial.pipex.com (Robert Howe) wrote:
>Didn't Clarke write about zero-gravity sex in Profiles of the Future,
>or is my memory playing me false?
He mentions this in virtually every book he's written that's set in
space.
David McIntosh,
da...@unspacy.demon.co.uk
Bentley
Robert Howe (rob...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
: I wondered the same thing - I remember a homosexual affair between
: Walter Curnow and Max Brailowsky in 2010.
Didn't recall that one. I was thinking of Duncan and Karl greiving over
the lost Kalindy (in each other's arms) in _Imperial Earth_, and an
offhand remark about the young male (who's name escapes me, Kumo or
something) and his boyfriends.
However I think Clarke is
: simply teaching the world to be more broad minded about matters
: sexual, by including characters of various orientations.
That's what I always thought, it just seemed to pop up a lot... he also
makes references to race very casually; the aforementioned Duncan
Mackenzie didn't really think about himself being black until someone
pointed it out to him... Clarke is hoping we shed our prejudices of the
20th century, it appears?
I did find a quote by searching through Alta Vista where Clarke, to
paraphrase, said that anybody who is 100% hetero or 100% homosexual is
probably demented...
Rodney Walters
In <4tqv9k$3...@news3.digex.net>, ben...@access5.digex.net (Bentley) writes:
>I've often wondered... forgive me if this is something everybody but me
>knows...
>
>But homosexuality is treated as commonplace by his characters in at least
>a couple books (Imperial Earth and Songs of Distance Earth come to mind).
>less puritanical as time goes on, which sounds healthy to me; I've seen
>the same question asked of David Gerrold (of C'htorr and Tribbles fame),
>since his (futuristic) characters are equally ambivalent about the whole
>orientation thing, and he (Gerrold) is apparently arrow-straight. I've
>never heard of a Mrs. Clarke or any offspring.
>
>Just curious.
>
>Bentley
Clarke was married to an American woman back in the early 50's after a VERY
brief (about 1 week) courtship. They returned to England and lived together
for another brief period (about one month, I think) after which they both
came to the conclusion that they were incompatible. There were no children
from this marriage although the woman (can't remember her name) had a small
child from a previous marriage. Clarke enjoyed the role of father but I
don't know if he maintained a relationship with him after the divorce, which
didn't become final for another 10 years or so.
In Clarke's Playboy interview he expressed a very relaxed attitude toward
sexuality, implying an acceptance of anything 2 consenting adults of any
sex cared to do. He was a bit evasive when discussing his own sexuality
but did leave the impression that he was heterosexual.
This info comes from the McAleer biography, which I highly recommend.
Rodney
Big E
In article <kUUn$jA$9bAy...@scarboro.demon.co.uk>, Edward Easton
<edw...@scarboro.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Incidentally, a failure to marry and/or produce children does
> not automatically imply that someone is gay.
Quite. Many straight-acting, married, church-going men are gay and, for
that matter, many single, effeminate, church-avoiders are straight.
Brian John Wright
Bentley (ben...@access5.digex.net) wrote:
: I've often wondered... forgive me if this is something everybody but me
: knows...
: But homosexuality is treated as commonplace by his characters in at least
: a couple books (Imperial Earth and Songs of Distance Earth come to mind).
: It COULD just be his eye for the future, predicting that we will become
: less puritanical as time goes on, which sounds healthy to me; I've seen
: the same question asked of David Gerrold (of C'htorr and Tribbles fame),
: since his (futuristic) characters are equally ambivalent about the whole
: orientation thing, and he (Gerrold) is apparently arrow-straight. I've
: never heard of a Mrs. Clarke or any offspring.
: Just curious.
: Bentley
I've heard that he most definitely IS gay, and the individual who
told me sounded like he had absolutely no doubts.
-Brian
Robert Howe
ben...@access4.digex.net (Bentley) wrote:
>Robert Howe (rob...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
>: I remember a homosexual affair between
>: Walter Curnow and Max Brailowsky in 2010.
>Didn't recall that one.
It's in chapter 28 of the novel; in the original Granada 1982
paperback it's on page 148.
>I did find a quote by searching through Alta Vista where Clarke, to
>paraphrase, said that anybody who is 100% hetero or 100% homosexual is
>probably demented...
Yes, in 2010 (chapter 28 again, p150) Clarke refers to the "secret
envy" felt by some towards "cheerfully well-adjusted polymorphs".
Damien Broderick
Edward Easton wrote:
>
> In article <4trpa5$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, EAMalaga
> <eama...@aol.com> writes
> >I wondered the same thing many years ago, but I don't think Clarke is gay.
> > He could be, but I doubt it. He was married once (umpty-ump years ago)
> >for a brief time and that was it. I don't think he ever had a child.
> I happen to have just started reading 'Odyssey - the authorised
> biography of ACC' by Neil McAleer. I've only got as far as
Keep reading. There's a Playboy Interview, IIRC, where Arthur comes out - at
least to the extent of declaring himself `bi-sexual'.
I have often wondered if prejudice against his particular brand of sexuality
is the reason why he has never been granted the knighthood he so richly
deserves.
> Incidentally, a failure to marry and/or produce children does
> not automatically imply that someone is gay.
Quite so.
Damien Broderick (unmarried, no children, het to a fault)
Big E
In article <3208C7...@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au>, Damien Broderick
<dam...@ariel.its.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> I have often wondered if prejudice against his particular brand of sexuality
> is the reason why he has never been granted the knighthood he so richly
> deserves.
In "Rendezvous with Rama," ACC speaks of one character (one of the members
of the Rama Committee) as "one of the few Englishmen to escape
knighthood." It makes me wonder whether ACC would _value_ becoming "Sir
Arthur."
tommy g
On 6 Aug 1996 00:31:25 GMT, bjwr...@acs5.acs.ucalgary.ca (Brian John
Wright) wrote:
> I've heard that he most definitely IS gay, and the individual who
>told me sounded like he had absolutely no doubts.
> -Brian
>
just cinches the case for me. With such overwhelming evidence, I guess
we can all stop wondering now.
ni...@nite.tv.delite
In <4u57tr$s...@news4.digex.net>, ben...@access4.digex.net (Bentley) writes:
>Robert Howe (rob...@dial.pipex.com) wrote:
>: I wondered the same thing - I remember a homosexual affair between
>: Walter Curnow and Max Brailowsky in 2010.
>
>the lost Kalindy (in each other's arms) in _Imperial Earth_, and an
>offhand remark about the young male (who's name escapes me, Kumo or
>something) and his boyfriends.
>
> However I think Clarke is
>: simply teaching the world to be more broad minded about matters
>: sexual, by including characters of various orientations.
>
>That's what I always thought, it just seemed to pop up a lot... he also
>makes references to race very casually; the aforementioned Duncan
>Mackenzie didn't really think about himself being black until someone
>pointed it out to him... Clarke is hoping we shed our prejudices of the
>20th century, it appears?
And it's a forlorn hope, apparently. Look at this thread. In the information
superhighway rushing towards 2001, we still think this is one of the important
things we need discuss about him.
-------
This country will be saved by Nick at Nite. Just wait and see.
Robert Howe
ni...@nite.tv.delite wrote:
>>Clarke is hoping we shed our prejudices of the
>>20th century, it appears?
>And it's a forlorn hope, apparently. Look at this thread. In the information
>superhighway rushing towards 2001, we still think this is one of the important
>things we need discuss about him.
Discussion doesn't require or imply prejudice. It could be argued
that deliberate avoidance of an issue does, though.
Allen White
I have an excerpt from a 1986 interview with Playboy - Clarke is asked
if he has ever had bisexual experiences, and says "Of course. Who
hasn't? Good God! If anyone ever told me that he hadn't, I'd have told
him he was lying. But then, of course, people tend to 'fprget' their
encounters."
Not an opinion I share, but interesting commentary.
Bentley
ni...@nite.tv.delite said something like:
: And it's a forlorn hope, apparently. Look at this thread. In the information
: superhighway rushing towards 2001, we still think this is one of the important
: things we need discuss about him.
Wait now -- I started the thread, and never though it was "important" at
all. I was just curious to see if the pattern I was detecting in his works
was in fact based on his personal life. Let's face it, by being on this
NG, we all have probably read all his works, and know the basics about his
background. It seemed a logical place to ask the question. If I'd asked
how tall he was, and the thread moved onto discussions of dwarvism, that
doesn't degrade the validity of the question.
Frankly, I don't care one way or another: While I the details of
homosexuality are not my cup of tea, I've never witnessed another man
having sex with a woman, so it is unlikely I'll ever witness a man having
sex with another man... frankly I hope he IS gay! The fact that it was
just an aside for so many years is good news for our progress.
I wonder if Mr. Clarke has Internet access...
Robert Howe
ben...@access2.digex.net (Bentley) wrote:
>I wonder if Mr. Clarke has Internet access...
I think that's probably like asking if the Pope is Catholic. From
what I know of Clarke, from his many writings over the years, it would
take physical restraint and/or general anaesthetic to keep him off the
net. In _The Odyssey File_ he writes of his collaboration with Hyams
on 2010, linking identical Kaypro computers (state of the art in 1982
or whenever it was) over the long distance phone line (with MGM/UA
picking up the phone tab). The national press here interviewed him
recently, and he allegedly stays in touch with fellow scientists over
the net from Sri Lanka. LankaNet no doubt has his e-mail address, but
it is probably the best kept secret since the recipe for Underberg.
The Nixtr
REading LOTS of larke books, I never once had the thought of him being gay
cross my mind. I just never did.
Reading Lee, though, LOTS of thoughts crossed my mind!!!
--
The Nixtr ** Transformer fan ** BEWARE OF evil MICHAEL LEHMAN (Karbunkle)
ACLU LOGIC: to spank your child is abuse, but to kill your child is a
right.
World's Weirdest Site: http://www.acy.digex.net/~thenixtr/nick0000.html
David Bowman
tgu...@emanon.net (tommy g) wrote:
JUST A MOMENT.... JUST A MOMENT...
I'm sorry tgu...@emanon.net, i think you missed it.
yes, he is, the "smoking gun" was his playboy interview.
and it was a big disapointment for me, too.
like others here, i also corresponded with him (twice) and he was kind
enough to answer (handwritten) both times. he even autographed my
copy of 2001 and mailed it back!
In one of his books about life in ceylon (treasure of the great reef,
i think), he describes how he keeps one or other of his little boy
fans at his house. I used to (literally) DREAM about being the lucky
little boy. what would i have thought had i actually been there and
found out?
and contrary to an earlier post, it IS referenced in the official bio
book, although tangentially.
add to this the surefit of fags in his extra-closet-activity writings.
do "normal" people put gay characters in their books so much?
he was married, but only once and only briefly. and finally, i saw on
tv that siri lanka is famous worldwide for looking the other way
vis-a-vis male pedophilia (it might have been on 60 minutes).
oh well... just yet another disappointment in god's wonderful
post-college nightmare.
>doctor bowman
p.s. i'm not "homophobic". gays and nerds have quite a lot in common.
for instance, both are hated by the normals because of what they
really are. and neither would, for instance, torture kitty cats.
but i was nevertheless very disapointed to realize that the One i look
up to the most is a licker of other men's ass holes.
Francis Norton
In article <4uoeco$e...@news.cais.com>, David Bowman
<David....@mail.wdn.com> writes
On a Clarke newsgroup, from a self-professed Clarke fan...
The whole appeal to me of Clarke's worlds is that they are *bigger* than
our squalid faults and vices. Naturally a universe where the majestic
overlords feel that they are merely automata by comparison with other,
still more shadowy entities, where (IIRC) the aliens of the fountains of
paradise nervously ask what we've heard of the hunters of the dawn,
where humanity itself may be evolving to new and higher species, people
have more important things to worry about than colour or sexuality.
Clarke is a bit of a utopian about human nature, in this respect. The
novels and short stories have a quiet and rather moving morality about
humans achieving some kind of love, dignity and acceptance in a universe
where humanity is placed in its true light, as microscopically small and
transient, but none the less valuable for it. How can any fan not pick
up some of his values? How can any fan not treat the possible source of
these values, of this detachment from prejudice, with slightly more
respect?
Damn this poster for spitting on my image of fellow Clarke fans and
fellow nerds.
Francis.
--
Francis Norton
tah...@azstarnet.com
Mr I.D. Cocks
David Bowman (David....@mail.wdn.com) wrote:
: and it was a big disapointment for me, too.
Why a disappointment? What difference does it make?
: In one of his books about life in ceylon (treasure of the great reef,
: i think), he describes how he keeps one or other of his little boy
: fans at his house. I used to (literally) DREAM about being the lucky
: little boy. what would i have thought had i actually been there and
: found out?
Maybe you'd have realised it's no big deal.
: he was married, but only once and only briefly. and finally, i saw on
: tv that siri lanka is famous worldwide for looking the other way
: vis-a-vis male pedophilia (it might have been on 60 minutes).
Ah, of course, being gay means you like abusing little boys. Just like being
heterosexual means you like abusing little girls. Of course, if you saw it on
tv it *must* be true.
: p.s. i'm not "homophobic". gays and nerds have quite a lot in common.
: for instance, both are hated by the normals because of what they
: really are. and neither would, for instance, torture kitty cats.
: but i was nevertheless very disapointed to realize that the One i look
: up to the most is a licker of other men's ass holes.
You're not homophobic, but you're disappointed that Clarke is bisexual? What
exactly do you mean by "normals"? What does a propensity to torture small
mammals have to do with sexual preference? Hello? Is there a brain in there?
It's worrying to think that someone who's read and apparently enjoyed Clarke's
works is still unable to get their brain out of neutral.
Ian.
ni...@nite.tv.delite
In <4uilb4$b...@news3.digex.net>, ben...@access2.digex.net (Bentley) writes:
>ni...@nite.tv.delite said something like:
>: And it's a forlorn hope, apparently. Look at this thread. In the information
>: superhighway rushing towards 2001, we still think this is one of the important
>: things we need discuss about him.
>
>Wait now -- I started the thread, and never though it was "important" at
>all. I was just curious to see if the pattern I was detecting in his works
-----8X----------8X-----------8X-------
You just started the thread, I was referring to how far the thread got and the
fact that all of the posts seemed to be rather ghoulishly presented evidence
of his orientation, like a tabloid, you know. If I have offended you, I am
truly sorry, that was not my intention.
Incidentally, the example you provide is rather interesting, because while we
*could* discuss his height etc. here, we almost never do and instead concentrate
on a more (ahem) intellectual plane. But as an exception, his sexual orientation
seems to attract a lot of comments. I would not mind discussing his sexual
organs (You know, "How tall is he?" and then "How long is he?") though we may not
get satisfactory answers. But sexual preference is such a charged topic that
the posts are often judgemental, hardly ever just inquisitive. That is more what
I was lamenting. As for a pattern in his writings, I always thought he was
trying to present the point of view that sexual orientation for a matter of
pleasure is personal and no one orientation is a priori correct. Maybe he was
leaning over a little backwards, since that has not been the age-old view, and
maybe he was getting a little shock-value out of throwing it out casually, as if
it is a very generally known truth.
Yes, I too wonder whether he is here and maybe even following this thread. If he
is, I bet he is enjoying it hugely. Once again, my aplogies if I have offended
anyone, including ACC.
Bentley
ni...@nite.tv.delite said something like:
: >Wait now -- I started the thread, and never though it was "important" at
: >all. I was just curious to see if the pattern I was detecting in his works
: You just started the thread, I was referring to how far the thread got and the
: fact that all of the posts seemed to be rather ghoulishly presented evidence
: of his orientation, like a tabloid, you know. If I have offended you, I am
: truly sorry, that was not my intention.
No offense taken at all. Indeed, it's a good discussion... well, until the
fellow came along and said "I'm not homophobic, but why all the fags in
ACC's works?" Sigh. Yeah, and I'm not racist, I just don't like niggers
and kikes and spics... well you get the idea.
(Now someone, somewhere will snip that little sentence from AltaVista or
Deja News and my File will show that I used the "n" word and am an avowed
racist. Look at how much trouble you've gotten me into!)
: on a more (ahem) intellectual plane. But as an exception, his sexual
:orientation seems to attract a lot of comments.
Sure it does. I honestly thought you guys would all jump on me and say "Of
course he is, you moron, EVERYBODY knows he's bi!" But it appears many
ACC fans were as in the dark as I was.
New topic: Did he ever teach school? Does he hold any truly advanced
degrees, besides the many honorary ones?
: pleasure is personal and no one orientation is a priori correct. Maybe
: he was leaning over a little backwards, since that has not been the
: age-old view, and maybe he was getting a little shock-value out of
: throwing it out casually, as if it is a very generally known truth.
It was certainly a possibility. As I mentioned earlier, the
married-with-kids-and-100%-hetereo sci-fi writer David Gerrold has done
exactly that -- and suddenly his fans were discussing whether he was gay,
which gave him, according to some intereivews, and endless source of
chuckles.
: Yes, I too wonder whether he is here and maybe even following this
: thread. If he is, I bet he is enjoying it hugely. Once again, my
: aplogies if I have offended anyone, including ACC.
Interesting thought. I know Tom Clancy posts in his newsgroup -- Imagine
my shock and surprise when I once, as a newbie to that newsgroup, quoted
some material from a _Washington Post_ interview, which make Clancy sound
like a bonafide asshole. The next day, TomC...@aol.com piped in with how
he was misquoted. Always one to dig myself deeper into uncomfortable
situaltions, I flamed this imposter at great length, only to find out from
a buddy at aol that he was the real McCoy, and AOL has filters on account
names preventing one from faking a famous person... so anyway, I don't
know of any other authors that particpate in their newsgroups under their
own names. As aliases, no doubt they're everywhere. Who knows, the next
FredS...@netcom.net could be ACC himself, chuckling at us...
Deric Lyon
ia...@liverpool.ac.uk (Mr I.D. Cocks) wrote:
>David Bowman (David....@mail.wdn.com) wrote:
>: he was married, but only once and only briefly. and finally, i saw on
>: tv that siri lanka is famous worldwide for looking the other way
>: vis-a-vis male pedophilia (it might have been on 60 minutes).
>Ah, of course, being gay means you like abusing little boys. Just like being
>heterosexual means you like abusing little girls. Of course, if you saw it on
>tv it *must* be true.
Oh, of course! The media wouldn't lie! Not them! They wouldn't
distort! They don't have an agenda or their own ideas! Pffft.
>: p.s. i'm not "homophobic". gays and nerds have quite a lot in common.
>: for instance, both are hated by the normals because of what they
>: really are. and neither would, for instance, torture kitty cats.
>: but i was nevertheless very disapointed to realize that the One i look
>: up to the most is a licker of other men's ass holes.
>You're not homophobic, but you're disappointed that Clarke is bisexual? What
>exactly do you mean by "normals"? What does a propensity to torture small
>mammals have to do with sexual preference? Hello? Is there a brain in there?
>It's worrying to think that someone who's read and apparently enjoyed Clarke's
>works is still unable to get their brain out of neutral.
It's obvious: there is NO brain in there.
Deric Lyon
dl...@p3.net
han...@ios.com
*applause* *applause*!!!!!
My sentiments exactly!
Seraphym :)
Andrew Clarke
>p.s. i'm not "homophobic". gays and nerds have quite a lot in common.
>for instance, both are hated by the normals because of what they
>really are. and neither would, for instance, torture kitty cats.
You're not homophobic yet you make a comment like the following one?
>but i was nevertheless very disapointed to realize that the One i look
>up to the most is a licker of other men's ass holes.
Oh good grief.
*PLONK*
--
Andrew Clarke - One of the most unpopular men in the world.
PGP Public Key available on request.
"Having your nuts nibbled off by a Laplander, that's a way to die."