Lasher speculation and question (with Spoilers)
ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu
A fundamental question: Just what the hell was Lasher before he was born and
are *all* witches in "communication" with Taltos?
The Talamasca records suggest that there are more "witch families" than just
the Mayfairs in Rice's universe. Are all the witches dealing with Taltos
spirits or are the Mayfairs unique?
If the Taltos are, as "Lasher" suggests, a species that evolved like any other
species, then is Lasher simply a member of that species that became a spirit
like Julien became a spirit or ghost? Then not all Taltos would become
spirits with Lasher's power? From Lasher's story it seems that he didn't
remember any lives before the previous one? Perhaps that was really his
first (since he did remember that life after arriving in the 20th century.)
I speculate that since the Mayfairs seem to be witches because of genetic
qualities and the Talamasca did not seem to consider the Mayfair different
from other witches that ALL witches are in contact with Taltos. (Or at least
the witches that have spirit helpers are.) This may mean that the Mayfairs
were just extraordinarily powerful witches who suceeded in bringing a Taltos
into being when others had failed. (The mother of Lasher in his previous lie
was a witch also, though. Was he just born due to genetics that time or did
she draw a Taltos spirit to her as well?)
I'm just rambling here, but I think there are two aspects to Lasher that I
wonder about and wonder if they are independent. The genetic aspect (Taltos
as a new or different species) and the spiritual aspect (the Ghost Lasher).
Do all Taltos become powerful spirits and are all powerful spirits Taltos?
I doubt both these propositions. I think only some humans and some Taltos
will become "ghosts" in Rice's universe, but that Taltos, in particular, when
they become ghosts become attached to humans with particular genetic traits
namely "witches." I also think that witches can give birth at times to
"new" Taltos, not necessarily ones that have "haunted" them as spirits.
Ah, enough rambling for the day! :-)
Wade
Helen Clifton
Wade:
I looked up witches in The Vampire Companion (Ramsland, also AR
biographer), and there was quite a bit of information relevant to your
question. It seems to be a given in AR cosmos that witches in general
commune with spirits, have spirit helpers that do 'tricks' for them, so the
other witches and witch families most certainly had dealings with spirits.
Vampire Companion deals mainly with AR 4 vampire books rather than Witching
Hour and Lasher, except for few characters or areas where they overlap
(e.g., Talamasca). The companion entry for witches mentioned the Twins
(Queen of the Damned) Maharet and [can't remember name of sister at the
moment] communicating with spirits and labelled witches, for which they
were tortured by the Mother and Father of all vampires when they were still
mortal king and queen. In fact, Akasha had her own familiar spirit, Amel,
who turned her into a vampire. In one entry Ramsland suggested that Lasher
may be similar to Amel. I can't help you with the Taltos part of the
question, e.g., are all spirits also Taltos, and vice versa? I too doubt
both proposisitions. I don't think so, but am still very much confused by
LASHER book--Taltos seem to be another species, with some capacity for
interbreeding with humans, and one of them (Lasher/Ashlar) has been in
mortal flesh more than once. I haven't yet been able to figure out the
spirit incarnation comings and goings, in relation to the Taltos lifespan
on material plane.
I understand from interview with Rice I read this weekend that the next
book to come out will be called TALTOS, which I am sure will answer some of
our questions and raise a lot more. Rice also mentioned that she was
thinking of doing a book on young Mona.
I'm looking forward to all these, but wish she would do one more Mummy
book, for further adventures of Ramses et al.
James A. Baxter
board, I think the Vampire definition of witch is similar to the real
world definition: anyone seeking to strengthen contact with the
supernatural. Under this definition, the Talamasca are witches. In
fact, Lestat almost seems to speak of them as such. This is partly due
to his distrust of them, or at least some of them, no doubt. The
Taltos series definintion is one of those who control or are controlled
by spirits, such as the negative mythological definition in most world
religions. This exempts Talamasca, and takes Vampires under its
auspices. I think Rice is torn as to which witch she would prefer to
write about. In addition, is it just my imagination, or does anyone
find it a little odd that Taltos and Talamasca might have the same root
word?
Helen Clifton
deb...@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (James A. Baxter) wrote:
lots deleted
> In addition, is it just my imagination, or does anyone
> find it a little odd that Taltos and Talamasca might have the same root
> word?
Yep, I thought so too, went so far as to quickly look in the dictionary
before I ran out the door on way to work this morning to see if I could
locate a common root. I couldn't in the brief moment I had, but am going to
look into it. In the V. Companion, Ramsland quotes Rice as saying she had
come across the word 'Talamasca' on a book on witches and sorcerers [author
Brooks?--name and title given in the entry, but the book is at home; I'll
provide if you are interested], and fell in love with the sound of the word
itself. It's fun to read these speculations, but I think it might be
worthwhile to go to one of AR's own sourcebooks for a change. This might
prove pretty daunting, as she seems to have read omnivorously for a very
long time, is now dragging a lot more into these books than is easy to keep
straight.
Greg Bueno
I don't recall at the moment. The phrase was used, however, to refer to
witches.
--
*************************************************************************
words to memorize, words hypnotize, words make my mouth exercise, words
all fail the magic prize, nothing i can say when i'm in your thighs...
-- violent femmes
bu...@uhunix.uhcc.hawaii.edu or greg_buen...@uhplato.bitnet
**************************************************************************
Christopher Hummel
>Wade:
> <snip>
>(e.g., Talamasca). The companion entry for witches mentioned the Twins
>(Queen of the Damned) Maharet and [can't remember name of sister at the
>moment] communicating with spirits and labelled witches, for which they
>were tortured by the Mother and Father of all vampires when they were still
>mortal king and queen. In fact, Akasha had her own familiar spirit, Amel,
Whoa!!! Error. Akasha did not have her own familiar spirit. Amel was a spirit
^^^
who was tormenting Akasha and Enkel *after* they had abducted the twins the
first time due to Magaret's ill wishes towards them. True, he did join with
their blood, but not because he was a familiar.
>who turned her into a vampire. In one entry Ramsland suggested that Lasher
>may be similar to Amel. I can't help you with the Taltos part of the
>question, e.g., are all spirits also Taltos, and vice versa? I too doubt
>both proposisitions. I don't think so, but am still very much confused by
>LASHER book--Taltos seem to be another species, with some capacity for
>interbreeding with humans, and one of them (Lasher/Ashlar) has been in
>mortal flesh more than once. I haven't yet been able to figure out the
>spirit incarnation comings and goings, in relation to the Taltos lifespan
>on material plane.
>I understand from interview with Rice I read this weekend that the next
>book to come out will be called TALTOS, which I am sure will answer some of
>our questions and raise a lot more. Rice also mentioned that she was
>thinking of doing a book on young Mona.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
Cristof hum...@vet.vet.purdue.edu
"Don't tell me what you don't like about yourself, I already know..."
Susan Lestat Spaet
truncated form of Lasher. Amel was supposed to be Lasher, but Anne Rice got
very interested in him and decided he needed his own book. Hence the strong
similarities between Amel and Lasher - ie- wanting the flesh, to be embodied,
etc...
--
Susan Spaet
sms...@amherst.edu
sms...@unix.amherst.edu
Daniel Debowy (was James Baxter)
refused to let me be me. So my name is Daniel, not James (I'm the one
who asked about Taltos sounding like Talamasca). Well, I think I've
heard both the animal mask and witchcraft theories of Talamasca word
origin. I have no idea which language it would be in either. I think
it was Helen who said that Rice got the name from a book on sorcery by
Brooks. Please let me know more about that book. I have never heard
of that author (brooks). Like Rice, I tend to read background material
rather avidly. Her work shows a lot of research behind it, especially
in the choice of names (e.g. calling the witch clan Mayfair), but a lot
of it seems to come from source material I haven't read yet.
Susan Lestat Spaet
: Sorry, guys. James let me use his machine the first time, and the net
I'm curious: Why does calling the clan Mayfair reflect alot of research? Is
this well known for something supernatural?
Helen Clifton
Christopher Hummel:
Sorry for the error! I do know Amel wasn't friendly to Akasha--in haste, I
carelessly misused 'familiar' carelessly to mean 'hanging about/tormenting'
rather than in traditional meaning of spirit-servant to witch.
Helen
Helen Clifton
Daniel:
I am bewitched, or my memory is going. The reason I put Brooks in question
mark was because I wasn't at all sure of the name. I got the B part right,
but was very far afield: The author is Jeffrey Burton Russell, the book A
HISTORY OF WITCHCRAFT: SORCERERS, HERETICS, AND PAGANS, London, New York:
Thames and Hudson, c1980. Are you familiar with Russell or this book?
Helen
Daniel Debowy
sms...@unix.amherst.edu (Susan "Lestat" Spaet) writes:
> I'm curious: Why does calling the clan Mayfair reflect alot of research? Is
> this well known for something supernatural?
May Day and the May Fair are supernatural festivals to the people in
the backwoods of Britain, I think. I've read elsewhere, although the
source eludes me at the moment (I seem to have Helen's disease or
bewitchement this week as well), that children born out of wedlock
whose conception can be pinned to MayFair Night are traditionally
thought of as having been fathered by a supernatural spirit instead of
some horny bastard. Wasn't Suzanne of the May Fair or her daughter
born as a May Day (Beltane) child? That would have given Lasher an
interesting in, eh? All he was trying to do for generations was
collect his due (father a child); highland tradition already would have
considered the Mayfairs demon children. MayDay and MayFair are
springtime welsh halloweens of sorts, apparently, but I have no idea
why. I read a really good anthro book on the topic a while back called
the Golden Bough, but the author's name eludes me like gangbusters
(forgetfulness is catching).
Thanks for the name of the Russell book, Helen. I've never heard of
him before. I'll read it over break. I'd really like to see Rice's
sources. Does anyone else have anything else to add on the Mayfair
clan's name? I'm really rusty on witchcraft legend (more of a
gothicist, myself).
Yale Gothic Alliance . . . because Yale is too boring not to be more
Gothic.
Helen Clifton
deb...@yalevm.ycc.yale.edu (Daniel Debowy) wrote:
Lots of interesting stuff about May Fair deleted:
> I read a really good anthro book on the topic a while back called
> the Golden Bough, but the author's name eludes me like gangbusters
> (forgetfulness is catching).
I'm never again going to mention anything without checking in library
first. GOLDEN BOUGH author is Sir James George FRAZER, 1855-1941.
> Thanks for the name of the Russell book, Helen. I've never heard of
> him before. I'll read it over break. I'd really like to see Rice's
> sources.
You're welcome. I would like to read Russell also, over the
holidays--someone has checked out all the copies on the Berkeley campus,
thank goodness, so I'll be able to attend to my real life and work while
I'm waiting for one to be returned. I've only been reading this newsgroup
for a little more than a week and find it somewhat addictive. If I'm not
careful, I'll be bringing all Rice's books and Ramsland Prism and Companion
into my office, along with wheelbarrows full of reference books on related
subjects. (Oh, well, at least going to the sources is more edifying than
arguing about Joe Bob Briggs or speculating ghoulishly/heartlessly about
River Phoenix.) Best wishes on your researches.
Helen
Bret Underberg-Davis
SUBJECT:Re: Lasher speculation and question (with Spoilers)
sms...@unix.amherst.edu (Susan "Lestat" Spaet) asked:
S> I'm curious: Why does calling the clan Mayfair reflect alot of research? Is
> this well known for something supernatural?
I don't know about its reflecting +a lot+ of research, but
the Mayfair name pretty clearly refers to the ancient May Day
festivals, which were a major feature in pre-Christian Celtic
religion and ritual. Adoption of the name by a family of witches
suggests an attachment to those traditions, though all of this
becomes clouded somewhat, considering the subverted form these
ritual took on as the Celtic culture merged itself (or in turn
subverted, depending on how you look at it) with Catholicism and
Christianity. AR naturally plays with this entwinement and
entanglement of the Celtic and Catholic traditions (it +is+, after
all, her own heritage) but she also had to do a lot of homework to
arrive at her particular vision of these traditions through time
and ensure that it would be at least consistent with what is known
of the traditions in academic circles. The great advantage here
is that there is not a great deal of agreement, once one gets past
a few basics, and most hard evidence of pre-Christian Ireland and
Scotland can be read in a number of possible and equally credible
readings. The tradition leaves plenty of free room for
speculation and invention. As it should.
---
~ SPEED 1.00 [NR] ~
Helen Clifton
bret.under...@satalink.com (Bret Underberg-Davis) wrote:
>
> I don't know about its reflecting +a lot+ of research, but
> the Mayfair name pretty clearly refers to the ancient May Day
> festivals, which were a major feature in pre-Christian Celtic
> religion and ritual. Adoption of the name by a family of witches
> suggests an attachment to those traditions, though all of this
> becomes clouded somewhat, considering the subverted form these
> ritual took on as the Celtic culture merged itself (or in turn
> subverted, depending on how you look at it) with Catholicism and
> Christianity. AR naturally plays with this entwinement and
> entanglement of the Celtic and Catholic traditions (it +is+, after
> all, her own heritage) but she also had to do a lot of homework to
> arrive at her particular vision of these traditions through time
> and ensure that it would be at least consistent with what is known
> of the traditions in academic circles. The great advantage here
> is that there is not a great deal of agreement, once one gets past
> a few basics, and most hard evidence of pre-Christian Ireland and
> Scotland can be read in a number of possible and equally credible
> readings. The tradition leaves plenty of free room for
> speculation and invention. As it should.
>
I took a tip from Daniel that initiated this line of speculation, and
browsed quickly through Frazer's GOLDEN BOUGH a couple of evenings ago.
There was, of course, SCADS of interesting stuff under May Day, including
lighting of bonfires and 'burning out the witches' up to almost modern
times as part of the festivities. It's been a while since I read Petyr Van
Abel/Lightner file on the Mayfair Witches, so I re-read a bit, and
refreshed my memory about Suzanne having been been May Queen for several
years running. I also remember from earlier reading, but couldn't find
again, the she was referred to as Suzanne of the May Fair (in the old style
of surnames arising out of folks craft, profession, or whatever, e.g.,
Cooper, Fletcher, etc.) rather than simply Mayfair.
On Rice in general, the Golden Bough would be very useful reading for those
who are interested in getting more background information. There were many
references to witches stealing milk and butter that put me in mind of
Lasher in Taltos incarnation, and great stuff about Druids, tree-worship
that recalled Marius's origin as a vampire.
Helen
Vickey Kalambakal
kca...@uclink.berkeley.edu (Helen Clifton) wrote:
>
> I took a tip from Daniel that initiated this line of speculation, and
> browsed quickly through Frazer's GOLDEN BOUGH a couple of evenings ago.
> that recalled Marius's origin as a vampire.
>
There is an odd movie called "the Wicker Man" that really brings to mind
the ceremony Marius witnessed! Also, I remember reading that one of the
very few contemporary accounts of Druid practices was Julius Caesar's, and
he wrote about stuffing people into giant wicker figures and setting them
all afire. Great party animals, those druids! But in fairness to Mael &
Co., I have to mention that Caesar was trying to drum up financial backing
for a war against the Celts at the time, so his report might be biased.
/vk
Daniel Debowy
Kalam...@Courier6.aero.org (Vickey Kalambakal) writes:
> There is an odd movie called "the Wicker Man" that really brings to mind
> the ceremony Marius witnessed! Also, I remember reading that one of the
> very few contemporary accounts of Druid practices was Julius Caesar's, and
> he wrote about stuffing people into giant wicker figures and setting them
> all afire. Great party animals, those druids! But in fairness to Mael &
> Co., I have to mention that Caesar was trying to drum up financial backing
> for a war against the Celts at the time, so his report might be biased.
The practice of burning criminals and war prisoners is mentioned in
Caesar and several other commentaries on Druidic religion. In fact,
there are still people who assemble a big figure in the Painted Desert
every summer, and blow it up wioth fireworks (I read this in a
in-flight magazine of all places). No people put in it, though. I
asked one of my friends, who introduced me to Frazer and the Wicker Man
movie, whether only criminals, heretics, prisoners, and witches were
burned. She said that innocents were never burned, just criminals; I
think it's interesting that early Christians were probably burned as
heretics by Druids, and that eventually, with the help of Augustine,
Patrick, and George, the tables got turned, and suddenly, it was Druids
being burned as witches, not Christians. But ... back to Rice ... I
think that if she got the Marius eyewitness report from Caesar, she got
an accurate report. Tacitus, in the annals of Rome, reports that
troops sent by Nero to UK were scared off by the strange and bloody
practices there. I don't remember whether the troops reported burning
in wicker men, but it seems as if the people there were capable of it.
Of course, Nero was probably unimpressed with infernos on such a small
scale. However, I think that if you've gotta get burned, the way
Marius describes is pretty poetic.
Jason Weston
Damn it I need to read Lasher...
by the time I have all this speculation with spoilers will have finished!!
Also, Stan Rice's poetry:
I too think most of it is pretty poor. I don't understand why she included
it. I guess Anne likes his poetry? Maybe her taste isn't as impeccable as
I thought!
-Jaz, a poetry loving fool.
Gordon Lloyd Goldberg
>Also, Stan Rice's poetry:
> I too think most of it is pretty poor. I don't understand why she included
>it. I guess Anne likes his poetry? Maybe her taste isn't as impeccable as
>I thought!
Pretty poor?! Pretty damned awful is more like it...
But he is her husband, so I guess she feels she's got to be supportive...
-Gord
--
Gordon Lloyd Goldberg The mind shapes the mass
<gg...@panix.com> mens agitat molem
"An ye harm none, do as ye will shall be the whole of the law."
T8(1)C7(3)L4w(c) h- d- a-(++) w- c(+) y e f t(++) k+ s-(+) m1 m2+ q-(+)
ez00...@chip.ucdavis.edu
>In <2btg68$5...@sun.rhbnc.ac.uk> ja...@cad3.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Jason Weston) writes:
>
>>Also, Stan Rice's poetry:
>
>> I too think most of it is pretty poor. I don't understand why she included
>>it. I guess Anne likes his poetry? Maybe her taste isn't as impeccable as
>>I thought!
>
>Pretty poor?! Pretty damned awful is more like it...
>But he is her husband, so I guess she feels she's got to be supportive...
>
> -Gord
Well, I'm not that crazy about the stuff she included either, but it is a
bit unfair, I think, to catagorize this as supportive wife thing. Stan Rice
has recieved several grants and fellowships for his poetry, was frequently
published, and by the age of 27 was a tenured professor at San Francisco
State University. And yes, he was teaching poetry. He did all this before
Anne published her first novel. Now I know that this doesn't make him a
great poet or anything, and I don't particularly like the poems that Anne
included in her books, but some people seem to think that he has talent and
knows what he's talking about. I'm just saying that this isn't a case of
an author including poems by her unknown and unemployed spouse out of love
or pity.
Wade
Lee Ballentine
>In article <2c02u4$9...@panix.com> gg...@panix.com (Gordon Lloyd Goldberg) writes:
>>In <2btg68$5...@sun.rhbnc.ac.uk> ja...@cad3.cs.rhbnc.ac.uk (Jason Weston) writes:
>>
>>>Also, Stan Rice's poetry:
>>
>>> I too think most of it is pretty poor. I don't understand why she included
>>>it. I guess Anne likes his poetry? Maybe her taste isn't as impeccable as
>>>I thought!
>>
>>Pretty poor?! Pretty damned awful is more like it...
>>But he is her husband, so I guess she feels she's got to be supportive...
>>
>> -Gord
>Well, I'm not that crazy about the stuff she included either, but it is a
>bit unfair, I think, to catagorize this as supportive wife thing. Stan Rice
>has recieved several grants and fellowships for his poetry, was frequently
>published, and by the age of 27 was a tenured professor at San Francisco
>State University. And yes, he was teaching poetry. He did all this before
.
All true--and in fact--understating the case. Stan Rice is an outstanding
poet who has won major national awards, including the Edgar Allen
Poe award from the Academy of American Poets, the Joseph Henry Jackson
award, and others.
Among his books of poems are SOME LAMB, WHITEBOY, and BODY OF WORK
in case anyone wants to form an opinion based on his work rather than
on fragments used as epigrams in the Anne Rice books.
However, it's not too surprising that many readers of genre fiction,
including horror, fantasy, science-fiction, etc. don't find points of
connection with the contemporary poetry world--it's equally true from the
other direction. But categorizing the work of a well-respected poet as
"pretty damned awful" and "pretty poor," while it's certainly defendable
as free speech, is the same sort of reaction that many "mainstream"
literary people have to genre fiction, including the work of Anne Rice.
One wonders what other contemporary poets the AR enthusiasts would
approve of if they disapprove of Stan. And if they disapprove of all
contemporary poetry, they're in essentially the same mindset as
literary people who reject all contemporary genre fiction out-of-hand,
people to whom THE VAMPIRE LESTAT is "trash."
And we should be especially skeptical when we're asked to reject
the entire work of any writer out-of-hand on the basis of a few lines
in a book not his own. For that matter, I suspect it would be possible
to extract a few lines from, say THE MUMMY, which would have a
similar effect.
Lee Ballentine
pro...@csn.org
Bret Underberg-Davis
And lee...@teal.csn.org (Lee Ballentine) said:
L> And we should be especially skeptical when we're asked to reject
> the entire work of any writer out-of-hand on the basis of a few lines
> in a book not his own. For that matter, I suspect it would be possible
> to extract a few lines from, say THE MUMMY, which would have a
> similar effect.
Thank you, Lee. I'd been watching this thread witha a mild
sense of revulsion for some time now, tempted to say something
along the same lines you just did.
I wish I understood why some people feel they need to
denigrate anything that falls outside a fairly narrow range of
personal interest. It's not very becoming.
Then again, I've liked the epigrams themselves, too. I
suspect Anne Rice chooses to use them (at least in part) in an
attempt to spark some kind of interest in contemp. poetry among at
least a few of her readers. Does anyone know whether she's made
any sort of statement on her reasons, or is the enigma
intentional?
Regards,
Bret // bret.under...@satalink.com
%% Annunciation: to speak clearly (definition by an MBA)
---
~ SPEED 1.30 [NR] ~
Jason Weston
|> ret.under...@satalink.com (Bret Underberg-Davis) writes:
|>
|> I wish I understood why some people feel they need to
|>denigrate anything that falls outside a fairly narrow range of
|>personal interest. It's not very becoming.
I feel this is an unfair statement. I _love_ poetry, and I write
it, and that doesn't mean I can't have my own views on different poets...
Stan may have had his worked published and it may be well respected but
I happen to think that it:
(a) It doesn't fit in with Anne's work; and
(b) It sparks any particular emotions. I just don't see anything in it to like.
But, certainly poetry does not fall out of my narrow range of personal
interest.
I think it is _anyones_ right to be able to say they don't like a
particular piece of art...no matter how well respected by the media, scholars
or the general public.
Nuff said.
-Jaz
Kevin O' Gorman
Later,
Kevin.
Kristine Thompson
Personally, I think liking poetry is a matter of opinion--just like music.
Some think Stan's poetry is horrible, some think it's good. I really
think arguing about this issue is pointless. Stan is Anne's husband. She
has known him longer and more personally than any of you. Who do you think
she is going to stand by?
Kris:)
