Anne Rice FanFiction

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Kelly Christopherson

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Feb 16, 2002, 5:28:36 AM2/16/02
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Hi,
I was a member of the "old listserv" and archive ring. I went overseas
for about a year and I have not been able to find anyone from the old
days... and I have no idea what happened to them. All I have been told
is "Never post a story with your real name attached, otherwise you may
end up like those poor souls in the Anne Rice fandom." Does anyone have
any true information about this situation. I truly miss Black Rose and
Black Emerald, to name a few. Thanks, you can reply to this or contact
me at khe...@yahoo.com.
-khellee (formerly Keli)

Ashe

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Feb 16, 2002, 11:07:40 AM2/16/02
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Kelly Christopherson <davi...@earthlink.com> wrote:

Khellee,
Back in 2000, Anne decided that she did not allow fanfiction. What her
concern with it up to that point was, we don't know. She posted her
message on her website and then performed a witchunt on any and all
websites that dared post any form of fanfiction and had her lawyers
send nasty-grams to all the site owners to cease and desist under
threat of financial disembowelment. Thus the the SpecWriter Massacre
of 2000 took place. If there are any fanfiction sites still on the
'net, they are so well hidden that unless you have the addy you won't
find them. Good luck to you.
Take care,
Ashe

Rubystars

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Feb 16, 2002, 1:18:20 PM2/16/02
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"Ashe" <din...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3c6e825a...@news.mindspring.com...

That was dumb of her.

It's true that most fan fictions are awful, but it also allows the authors
to show how much they love her characters and concepts.

It allows them to explore ideas, what ifs, etc.

If I wrote something that people liked enough to write fan fiction for, I'd
be flattered.

-Rubystars


Ashe

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Feb 17, 2002, 5:47:12 PM2/17/02
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"Rubystars" <windst...@nospamhotmail.com> wrote:

>> Khellee,
>> Back in 2000, Anne decided that she did not allow fanfiction. What her
>> concern with it up to that point was, we don't know. She posted her
>> message on her website and then performed a witchunt on any and all
>> websites that dared post any form of fanfiction and had her lawyers
>> send nasty-grams to all the site owners to cease and desist under
>> threat of financial disembowelment. Thus the the SpecWriter Massacre
>> of 2000 took place. If there are any fanfiction sites still on the
>> 'net, they are so well hidden that unless you have the addy you won't
>> find them. Good luck to you.
>> Take care,
>> Ashe
>
>That was dumb of her.
>
>It's true that most fan fictions are awful, but it also allows the authors
>to show how much they love her characters and concepts.
>
>It allows them to explore ideas, what ifs, etc.
>
>If I wrote something that people liked enough to write fan fiction for, I'd
>be flattered.
>
>-Rubystars

Rubystars,
Some authors see it as exactly that and they not only welcome
fanfiction, they encourage it. I believe Poppy Z. Brite is one of
them. But Anne doesn't, she views it as a legal and personal
infringment and is absolutely horrified that a lowly fan would ever
think of writing a story that would include one of her chacters.
You are right most fanfiction is pretty awful, but in the past I have
read some really outstanding work as well. It was a great time filler
between her books, and in the case of Memnoch the Drivel, some of it
made up for my disappointment. I don't remember who wrote it, but
someone did rewrite Memnoch and it was a hell of a lot more original
and interesting than the rehash of Goethe that Rice came up with.
Take care,
Ashe
>

Azzyboo

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Feb 18, 2002, 11:49:41 AM2/18/02
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Mine may be an unpopular opinion but....I can understand why Anne does not like
fanfiction. The characters in her books are not just characters to her. They
are real....they think, they breath and they speak to her. They are part of her
real world. ( if I had never read her books I would think that quite odd and
slightly insane....however her characters become a part of me when I read her
books as well....they become so real I could almost touch them...and I find
myself thinking about them and how they are long after I have read a book )
They are like friends to her. So you see it isn't just taking a character and
playing with it and creating new scenerios for it. To her it is messing with a
friend....sort of like defamation ( sp?) of character. It is as if someone is
spreading untrue rumors about a dear friend. I know it is hard..and it sucks
for those who like fanfics, but I have to agree with her. Her writing is
unlike any other author out there. Her charatcers become real...and I can
understand her feelings on this issue.

Azzy

Ben Bryant

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Feb 18, 2002, 2:23:03 PM2/18/02
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In message <a4m7r0$1afpd$1...@ID-63471.news.dfncis.de>, Rubystars
<windst...@nospamhotmail.com> writes

>That was dumb of her.
>
>It's true that most fan fictions are awful, but it also allows the authors
>to show how much they love her characters and concepts.
>
>It allows them to explore ideas, what ifs, etc.
>
>If I wrote something that people liked enough to write fan fiction for, I'd
>be flattered.
>
>-Rubystars
>
>

Maybe she didn't want another George Lucas situation on her hands where
other people write about the characters and develop them in a certain
way and then when Anne comes to write more books she has to explain to
everyone why she is completely changing/disregarding what others have
wrote


--
Ben

Ashe

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Feb 18, 2002, 2:56:42 PM2/18/02
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Ben Bryant <b...@w1ngchun.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Ben,
I didn't mean to re-open a can of worms with this topic. It has been
discussed ad nausuem in the past. I think everyone is entitled to
their opinion and I respect that. The problem I had with the whole
situation is that is existed for a very long time before Rice put her
lawyer's foot down. I find it very difficult to believe that it took
her so long to find out about it and that this goes well beyond
artistic integrity or copywrite issues. Call me cynical.
Secondly, I don't know about the whole George Lucas situation, but
anybody who was a fan of facfiction knew that these were amateur works
and had no bearing whatsoever on the premises Rice developed for her
characters. They were never viewed as being interdependent. While it
is true that the best fanfiction writers kept religiously to the dogma
of Rice's universe (for instance, they wouldn't give the vampire
powers they didn't have in Rice's work to begin with or have them do
something that was inherently against the makeup of the characters),
there was no misunderstanding that a fanfiction author could influence
Rice's character or plot development, or that Rice would have to
disclaim anything. In most pieces of fanfiction is was even stated at
the very top of the story that is was a work of fanfiction and there
was not attempt to infringe on the author's right or to make a profit
from the works.
But as I said, I respect everyone's opinion on the topic, whether I
agree with it or not.
Take care,
Ashe

Amy, Jim & Charlie

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Feb 18, 2002, 8:48:17 PM2/18/02
to
You know, I had nothing to say about this until now. I personally agree that
they are her characters and they are quite personal to her. I might feel the
same way. Then again I might be flattered that someone was inspired by
something that I did. I don't know because it hasn't happened to me.

HOWEVER, everybody that has posted about this is posting THEIR OPINION. For
you to reply to every single person's opinion and tell them how illegal it
is seems to be desiring to start a flame war or pissing contest or something
along those lines. If someone or everybody was posting their fanfiction on
this newsgroup then by all means, go at them with the full force of the law.
NOBODY wrote anything about fanfiction being 'legal but just 'disliked' by
Anne Rice'.

It could be everybody's opinion that copyright infringement is a stupid law
too, you don't know that.

Opinions aren't illegal. Implementation of them might be, but unless my
email program is royally messed up, all I got in my newsgroup mailbox was a
bunch of opinions.

Amy

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:bt637ukvf5ktckknq...@4ax.com...


> On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:07:40 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
> >Khellee,
> >Back in 2000, Anne decided that she did not allow fanfiction. What her
> >concern with it up to that point was, we don't know. She posted her
> >message on her website and then performed a witchunt on any and all
> >websites that dared post any form of fanfiction and had her lawyers
> >send nasty-grams to all the site owners to cease and desist under
> >threat of financial disembowelment. Thus the the SpecWriter Massacre
> >of 2000 took place. If there are any fanfiction sites still on the
> >'net, they are so well hidden that unless you have the addy you won't
> >find them. Good luck to you.
> >Take care,
> >Ashe
>

> Excuse me, but whether you like it or not, her characters are copyrighted,
as
> are all her books and words written in those books. Nobody has the right
to
> print fanfiction in any capacity. Her main reason was that what if one
day she,
> though never read a word of the fanfiction, came up with an idea which
closely
> resembled that of a fanfiction novel. Of course she would be accused of
> stealing the idea from the fanfic writer. Matter of fact, that happened.
>
> NObody has the right to use copyrighted ANYTHING without express, written
> permission of the author who owns those rights. Period.


Rubystars

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Feb 18, 2002, 9:19:42 PM2/18/02
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"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:bt637ukvf5ktckknq...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2002 16:07:40 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
> >Khellee,
> >Back in 2000, Anne decided that she did not allow fanfiction. What her
> >concern with it up to that point was, we don't know. She posted her
> >message on her website and then performed a witchunt on any and all
> >websites that dared post any form of fanfiction and had her lawyers
> >send nasty-grams to all the site owners to cease and desist under
> >threat of financial disembowelment. Thus the the SpecWriter Massacre
> >of 2000 took place. If there are any fanfiction sites still on the
> >'net, they are so well hidden that unless you have the addy you won't
> >find them. Good luck to you.
> >Take care,
> >Ashe
>
> Excuse me, but whether you like it or not, her characters are copyrighted,
as
> are all her books and words written in those books. Nobody has the right
to
> print fanfiction in any capacity. Her main reason was that what if one
day she,
> though never read a word of the fanfiction, came up with an idea which
closely
> resembled that of a fanfiction novel. Of course she would be accused of
> stealing the idea from the fanfic writer. Matter of fact, that happened.
>
> NObody has the right to use copyrighted ANYTHING without express, written
> permission of the author who owns those rights. Period.

I was reading Mega Man fan fictions for a while. (For those of you who don't
know, it's a video game series). There is a prominent fan fic author named
Red Draco (real name Nadia Eisner), and she has a character in her stories
that resembles a red dragon. In Mega Man X 4, there was an enemy that
resembled one of Red's Mechadrakes.

Was Magma Dragoon based off of Red Draco? Who knows?

If so, it's probably a credit to the author, not a rip off. If not, then Red
Draco probably showed her audience that she was really "in tune" with the
game series.

-Rubystars


Rubystars

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Feb 18, 2002, 9:21:12 PM2/18/02
to

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:lc737usl23k71cgb3...@4ax.com...

> On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:56:42 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
> >Ben,
> >I didn't mean to re-open a can of worms with this topic. It has been
> >discussed ad nausuem in the past. I think everyone is entitled to
> >their opinion and I respect that. The problem I had with the whole
> >situation is that is existed for a very long time before Rice put her
> >lawyer's foot down. I find it very difficult to believe that it took
> >her so long to find out about it and that this goes well beyond
> >artistic integrity or copywrite issues. Call me cynical.
>
> Don't find it so difficult. I personally called Suzie, her then
assistant,
> directly on the phone and brought it to their attention that fans were
> publishing fanfic without permission. I can't say that's what started the
ball
> rolling, but two weeks later Anne announced she does not allow fanfic to
be
> written, using her characters, or ideas.

>
>
>
> >Secondly, I don't know about the whole George Lucas situation, but
> >anybody who was a fan of facfiction knew that these were amateur works
> >and had no bearing whatsoever on the premises Rice developed for her
> >characters. They were never viewed as being interdependent. While it
> >is true that the best fanfiction writers kept religiously to the dogma
> >of Rice's universe (for instance, they wouldn't give the vampire
> >powers they didn't have in Rice's work to begin with or have them do
> >something that was inherently against the makeup of the characters),
> >there was no misunderstanding that a fanfiction author could influence
> >Rice's character or plot development, or that Rice would have to
> >disclaim anything. In most pieces of fanfiction is was even stated at
> >the very top of the story that is was a work of fanfiction and there
> >was not attempt to infringe on the author's right or to make a profit
> >from the works.
> >But as I said, I respect everyone's opinion on the topic, whether I
> >agree with it or not.
> >Take care,
> >Ashe
>
> Yeah, but regardless what the author of fanfiction said, it was ILLEGAL.
What
> part of that don't you get?

I don't think it's illegal if you don't charge money for it.

-Rubystars


Ashe

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Feb 19, 2002, 8:22:06 PM2/19/02
to
"Amy, Jim & Charlie" <cdog...@nospamcinci.rr.com> wrote:


Amy, relax, don't sweat it! This is what Victoria does and this has
been her pattern for as long as I've been posting to the forum and
probably longer. She goes into lurk mode for months at a time and then
if someone expresses an opinion she doesn't like out the little
darling comes to start a flame war. I find it very humorous and have
grown to love her little rants. In fact, I'm surprised that this
thread went this long without her making her appearance.
Take care,
Ashe

>You know, I had nothing to say about this until now. I personally agree that
>they are her characters and they are quite personal to her. I might feel the
>same way. Then again I might be flattered that someone was inspired by
>something that I did. I don't know because it hasn't happened to me.
>
>HOWEVER, everybody that has posted about this is posting THEIR OPINION. For
>you to reply to every single person's opinion and tell them how illegal it
>is seems to be desiring to start a flame war or pissing contest or something
>along those lines. If someone or everybody was posting their fanfiction on
>this newsgroup then by all means, go at them with the full force of the law.
>NOBODY wrote anything about fanfiction being 'legal but just 'disliked' by
>Anne Rice'.
>
>It could be everybody's opinion that copyright infringement is a stupid law
>too, you don't know that.
>
>Opinions aren't illegal. Implementation of them might be, but unless my
>email program is royally messed up, all I got in my newsgroup mailbox was a
>bunch of opinions.
>
>Amy

>> >Khellee,

Ashe

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Feb 19, 2002, 8:28:42 PM2/19/02
to
animaux <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote:

>On Mon, 18 Feb 2002 19:56:42 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>

>>Ben,
>>I didn't mean to re-open a can of worms with this topic. It has been
>>discussed ad nausuem in the past. I think everyone is entitled to
>>their opinion and I respect that. The problem I had with the whole
>>situation is that is existed for a very long time before Rice put her
>>lawyer's foot down. I find it very difficult to believe that it took
>>her so long to find out about it and that this goes well beyond
>>artistic integrity or copywrite issues. Call me cynical.
>

>Don't find it so difficult. I personally called Suzie, her then assistant,
>directly on the phone and brought it to their attention that fans were
>publishing fanfic without permission. I can't say that's what started the ball
>rolling, but two weeks later Anne announced she does not allow fanfic to be
>written, using her characters, or ideas.

Oh, aren't you the do-gooder.


>
>
>
>>Secondly, I don't know about the whole George Lucas situation, but
>>anybody who was a fan of facfiction knew that these were amateur works
>>and had no bearing whatsoever on the premises Rice developed for her
>>characters. They were never viewed as being interdependent. While it
>>is true that the best fanfiction writers kept religiously to the dogma
>>of Rice's universe (for instance, they wouldn't give the vampire
>>powers they didn't have in Rice's work to begin with or have them do
>>something that was inherently against the makeup of the characters),
>>there was no misunderstanding that a fanfiction author could influence
>>Rice's character or plot development, or that Rice would have to
>>disclaim anything. In most pieces of fanfiction is was even stated at
>>the very top of the story that is was a work of fanfiction and there
>>was not attempt to infringe on the author's right or to make a profit
>>from the works.
>>But as I said, I respect everyone's opinion on the topic, whether I
>>agree with it or not.
>>Take care,
>>Ashe
>

>Yeah, but regardless what the author of fanfiction said, it was ILLEGAL. What
>part of that don't you get?

Welcome back from lurkdom, sweetie, and at your normally charming self
I see. Well, let the fun begin.
Ashe

Amy, Jim & Charlie

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Feb 19, 2002, 8:44:22 PM2/19/02
to
whew! I almost replied to her last post with a vengeance! another newsgroup
I am on, which I might add, comes into MY MAILBOX, there is a troll who
viciously replies to everybody and anybody and it's common newsgroup
knowledge to killfile him. Looks like I'll have to killfile her too.

Sad....

Thanks for stopping me before I made a fool of myself and frustrated myself
more....

Amy

"Ashe" <din...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:3c72f926....@news.mindspring.com...

Isis

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Feb 19, 2002, 9:58:56 PM2/19/02
to
> > NObody has the right to use copyrighted ANYTHING without express, written
> > permission of the author who owns those rights. Period.

Yeah, well....nobody is legally allowed to smoke pot or tear those
little tags off their pillow cases either, and we don't see too many
people following those rules. VC fanfic will always be around.
Always. And that's a fact. There is no way they can "police" the
entire net. Close one site down and another one will pop up in it's
place. If Anne was so against fanfic, maybe someone can explain to me
why links to the old archive were in several books written about her
and in full cooperation with her? And now, to suddenly be against it,
when the quality of her writing has taken such an obvious nose-dive
amounts to nothing more than feeling threatened and maybe a bit of an
over-sensitive ego. There is *alot* of good VC fanfic that kicks the
hell out of her latest work. She's also lost *alot* of fans over this
"ban", which was proven when I saw "Blood and Gold" at the bookstore
already in the "bargain bin". So if you feel like you've accomplished
some *big* thing by turning in your fellow fans for writing stories,
you haven't really accomplished a thing. It is still out there, and
always will be.

-Daizy

Jenny Horsburgh

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Feb 20, 2002, 5:15:19 PM2/20/02
to
If it's not been fun for many years, I suppose you're only here to check on
us and make sure there are no illegal activities, right? Well, tell you
what, why don't you go back to lurkdom and stay there because I don' think
anybody on this newsgroup is pleased with your biggoted, one-track-minded
comments.
Take care on your way out.


Dreamspinner3

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Feb 20, 2002, 5:34:32 PM2/20/02
to
As a writer with my own items published in print & on the Net (albeit only a
one-time published writer on paper so far), I understand this point of view
and also why Anne Rice doesn't allow published fan fiction on the Net. The
characters of the Vampire novels are her creations, they are the children of
her mind AND they are how she makes a living in life. It is her right to
protect her creations as she sees fit at anytime.

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message

news:o1k77u846psb1j1vg...@4ax.com...

> No, I'm a published writer and designer and in order to protect copyright
I will
> go to the end of the earth. I thought Anne was pretty kind in how she
went
> about it. If it were me a lawsuit would have ensued if it didn't stop
> immediately. And it still goes on. Have fun.


Jenny Horsburgh

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Feb 20, 2002, 6:10:06 PM2/20/02
to
It's a relieve to see someone who understands Rice's opinions about this and
yet doesn't slag off everyone else in the process of "protecting" writers'
copyrights.
I personally have nothing against Anne's decision to ban fan-fic. I've
never read any, nor would I like to. But I don' think that Anne's latest
novels have taken a nosedive in quality.

jen

"Dreamspinner3" <dreams...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a5188o$3tj64$1...@ID-75132.news.dfncis.de...

Ashe

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Feb 21, 2002, 8:56:39 PM2/21/02
to
animaux <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:28:42 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
>>Oh, aren't you the do-gooder.
>

>No, I'm a published writer and designer and in order to protect copyright I will
>go to the end of the earth. I thought Anne was pretty kind in how she went
>about it. If it were me a lawsuit would have ensued if it didn't stop
>immediately. And it still goes on. Have fun.

It still goes on? Good!

>>Welcome back from lurkdom, sweetie, and at your normally charming self
>>I see. Well, let the fun begin.
>>Ashe
>

>This has not been a fun newsgroup for many years...sad to say.

And yet you are *still* here. Every time you whine about the sad
state of this ng, which invertibly happens in one of your rants, I get
a little chuckle.
You know, you should read back over this thread and see why some
people have reacted they way they have. As Amy stated we are
expressing opinions. You may not like my or anyone else's opinion, but
we are entitled to hold and express it, just as you have a right to
hold and express your opinions. However, as it always seems to happen,
you don't use a bit of tact or decorum in your presentation of your
opinion you come into a thread like a bull in a china shop. You don't
express, you demand that everyone see things your way and no other way
but your way. Personally I still think it is pretty f***ing stupid to
make a stink over some amateur works in which nobody is trying to make
a profit and that have little or no bearing on what is actually
published under a copywrite. That is my opinion. don't like it. Tough.
Ashe

Isis

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Feb 21, 2002, 9:10:52 PM2/21/02
to
> As a writer with my own items published in print & on the Net (albeit only a
> one-time published writer on paper so far), I understand this point of view
> and also why Anne Rice doesn't allow published fan fiction on the Net. The
> characters of the Vampire novels are her creations, they are the children of
> her mind AND they are how she makes a living in life. It is her right to
> protect her creations as she sees fit at anytime.

I am a published writer too, and I still don't understand it. I would
be flattered and I would also be very interested to read fanfic based
on my own characters. There are many authors who encourage it, and
some who even allow published speculative fiction, such as James
O'Barr. In fact, to do what she has done, you are cutting your own
throat. Alienating fans is never a good idea. And in this particular
fandom, I would say over 50% either used to write or read fanfic. I
agree that she has the right to do whatever she wants, but I don't
understand why at first, she was cool with it, and then all of the
sudden, It is FORBIDDEN. Whatever. Fanbases thrive off each other.
And the more involved they are in your work, the more popularity and
attention your writing will get. People are always going to go back
to the original. Many times, speculative fiction brings new fans in.
As I see it, if it gets your name and your stories out there, it is a
good thing. Aren't there more important things to worry about? Like
maybe filing a lawsuit against another restaurant owner or something?
I think she's lost it, and it shows in her writing. Painfully.

-Daizy

CinGee

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Feb 21, 2002, 9:55:40 PM2/21/02
to
I have read some really good fanfic and then I have seen some not worthy of
the time it took to write. The fun thing is it gives fans a chance to take
characters in a direction in which they visualize, fantasize, imagine, take
your pick of words. Haven't you ever read something and had it to end, only
to wonder and possibly create in your mind where it goes next. I agree that
if fanfic were to be printed and sold, then there is a problem, however
otherwise it is an opinion of what that particular fan thinks as to the
future of the storyline. That doesn't mean its gospel.

--
"Remember!
Inside every old person is a young person wondering "What Happened?"


"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message

news:imbb7uci9c06qbihk...@4ax.com...

> It's copyright, not copywrite. Anyway, it is not my "opinion." Copyright
is a
> law. A very well founded set of laws which Anne Rice is completely within
her
> rights to express. It is not left up to your "opinion." It is fact. It
is not
> some dogma I make up to annoy you.


Malange duPre

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Feb 22, 2002, 4:35:59 PM2/22/02
to
With any fanfic, it is not considered Infringement of copyright and
theft of intellectual property UNLESS someone other than the author is
making money out of the characters. So, if someone writes a fic about
their Barbie dolls, (or in this case AR vampires, witches, etc etc)
unless it is published as a Zine, and there is actually money made,
your arse can't be fried.

Here's the source: from volume 17 of the Loyola of Los Angeles
Entertainment Law Journal, 1997 (17 Loy. L.A. Ent. L.J. 651)


Kisses and Acid,
Malange
"Fan fiction is a way of the culture repairing the damage done in a
system where contemporary myths are owned by corporations instead of
owned by the folk."
Henry Jenkins

Ashe

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Feb 23, 2002, 11:26:06 AM2/23/02
to
"CinGee" <gro...@cinci.rr.com> wrote:

>I have read some really good fanfic and then I have seen some not worthy of
>the time it took to write. The fun thing is it gives fans a chance to take
>characters in a direction in which they visualize, fantasize, imagine, take
>your pick of words. Haven't you ever read something and had it to end, only
>to wonder and possibly create in your mind where it goes next. I agree that
>if fanfic were to be printed and sold, then there is a problem, however
>otherwise it is an opinion of what that particular fan thinks as to the
>future of the storyline. That doesn't mean its gospel.
>

Nope, Victoria never has because fanfiction is the eighth deadly sin.
Ashe

Ashe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 12:03:20 PM2/23/02
to
animaux <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote:

his has not been a fun newsgroup for many years...sad to say.
>>
>>And yet you are *still* here. Every time you whine about the sad
>>state of this ng, which invertibly happens in one of your rants, I get
>>a little chuckle.
>>You know, you should read back over this thread and see why some
>>people have reacted they way they have. As Amy stated we are
>>expressing opinions. You may not like my or anyone else's opinion, but
>>we are entitled to hold and express it, just as you have a right to
>>hold and express your opinions. However, as it always seems to happen,
>>you don't use a bit of tact or decorum in your presentation of your
>>opinion you come into a thread like a bull in a china shop. You don't
>>express, you demand that everyone see things your way and no other way
>>but your way. Personally I still think it is pretty f***ing stupid to
>>make a stink over some amateur works in which nobody is trying to make
>>a profit and that have little or no bearing on what is actually
>>published under a copywrite. That is my opinion. don't like it. Tough.
>>Ashe
>

>It's copyright, not copywrite. Anyway, it is not my "opinion." Copyright is a
>law. A very well founded set of laws which Anne Rice is completely within her
>rights to express. It is not left up to your "opinion." It is fact. It is not
>some dogma I make up to annoy you.

Yes, copywrite is copywrite and Rice is in her rights. That is a fact
and I agree with you. However, what I stated above had nothing to do
with Rice's legal rights and whether or not they exist. Are you trying
to dodge the issues I was discussing? Humm, I think you were.
Be that as it may, if you re-read the above I was talking about
expressing an opinion and your inherent problem with people's opinions
that digress from your own. So let me say this one more time: I, and
everyone else on this forum have the right to hold and express an
opinion right, wrong, or otherwise. Everyone in this forum has the
right to express that opinion without being attacked, in pit bull
fashion, for expressing any opinion. Now, I ask you what part of that
don't you comprehend.
You should really re-read the thread objectively, Victoria, if you are
capable of such a thing and ask yourself if you would enjoy being
attacked in the manner in which you responded to some these people. In
fact, I just did, and I must say that your positively sheep-like
devotion to a virtual stranger truly shines through in the sheer
volume of your individual attacks, and also verges on a tone of
fanaticism. I'm not sure if I find this creepy or just hiliarious.
Let the fun and games continue.
Ashe

Ashe

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 12:08:04 PM2/23/02
to
thumbscr...@yahoo.co.uk (Malange duPre) wrote:

Malange,
Thank you for this. My world just keeps getting rosier. I say let the
spec posting begin!!!
Again, my thanks,
Ashe

Jenny Horsburgh

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 2:16:04 PM2/23/02
to
Oh I can't wait!
Hehehe <evil laugh>


"Ashe" <din...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:3c77cc07....@news.mindspring.com...

NightRaven

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 7:18:05 PM2/23/02
to

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:o1k77u846psb1j1vg...@4ax.com...

> On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 01:28:42 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
> >Oh, aren't you the do-gooder.
>
> No, I'm a published writer and designer and in order to protect copyright
I will
> go to the end of the earth. I thought Anne was pretty kind in how she
went
> about it. If it were me a lawsuit would have ensued if it didn't stop
> immediately. And it still goes on. Have fun.
>

I'm a writer too, unfortunately not a published one yet
(Haven't even finished The Work yet), but still...
This is the INTERNET! There is no such thing as
'published' on the web, in my mind the copyrightlaw
should not be applicable to the net at all.
Fan Fiction is just fans writing for themselves to have fun,
they make up their own stories using popular characters
that everyone knows. It has got NOTHING to do with
Anne Rice or her work, and this is just typical of these
so called 'modern' times with everyone sueing eachother
for every little nuisance.
Copyright laws were not made for this, and to use
them in order to shut down Fan Fiction is in my mind
abusing copyright.
Now, if someone actualy PUBLISHED these works,
that's a whole different ballgame, and would of course
not be good.
But as it is, Fan fiction is available for the ones that
want to read stories about their favourite characters
that they would never read otherwise, people write
them for fun and they harm none.

It saddens me to see that people can actualy care
about this.

- NightRaven


NightRaven

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 7:32:01 PM2/23/02
to

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:56k77usmtb59mflqb...@4ax.com...
> Oy. Leave it to you to change the subject. We are talking about
copyright.
> Since you have nothing copyrighted, it wouldn't bother you to steal from
someone
> who does. BTW, the tag on the pillows is meant for the pillow
manufacturer, not
> the consumer. And pot is legal to smoke in Denmark. What does any of that
have
> to do with theft of intellectual property?

Oowhmp!
There is no such thing as 'theft of intellectual property'!
The only intellctual property that exists is inside each
persons head. Anything else is just material objects, and
totally irrelevant.
Anne has no more 'right' to Lestat or Mayfairs than any
of the Fan Fic writers, they are characters in a book
and does not exist. You can't steal something that does
not exist. Anne has not lost her characters if some
specwriter decides to use them in a story, they still
exist in her mind, noone has taken them from there.

Just because it is a law doesn't make it right.

BTW, pot is NOT legal to smoke in Denmark. I live in
Norway, so I should know.
(Maybe you are thinking about Kristiania, which is an
independent community inside Denmark, but not a part
of the country legaly. (Sort of like the Vatican of Pot))

- NightRaven


Malange duPre

unread,
Feb 23, 2002, 9:48:14 PM2/23/02
to
din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote in message news:<3c77cc07....@news.mindspring.com>...

> thumbscr...@yahoo.co.uk (Malange duPre) wrote:
>
> Malange,
> Thank you for this. My world just keeps getting rosier. I say let the
> spec posting begin!!!
> Again, my thanks,
> Ashe

Remember, just because there is a precedent, doesn't mean the wolves
will not be sent forth.

Malange

Isis

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 3:21:20 PM2/24/02
to
>So, if someone writes a fic about
> their Barbie dolls, (or in this case AR vampires, witches, etc etc)
> unless it is published as a Zine, and there is actually money made,
> your arse can't be fried.

Exactly! And even if you were sued, judges tend to be very
unsympathetic
to rich, nitpicky plaintiffs wasting their time on something as
trivial as a Fanfic case for chrissakes. My guess is, most cases like
this would be thrown out. There is no money being made on the
product, so there's no money to win
in court.

-Daizy

Ashe

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 5:16:32 PM2/24/02
to
"NightRaven" <Ley...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>BTW, pot is NOT legal to smoke in Denmark. I live in
>Norway, so I should know.
>(Maybe you are thinking about Kristiania, which is an
>independent community inside Denmark, but not a part
>of the country legaly. (Sort of like the Vatican of Pot))
>
>- NightRaven

NightRaven,
You are right about Kristiania. I heard about it and checked it out as
potential place for an interesting holiday. Pot is also very
tolerated, but not legal in places like Amsterdam and Vancouver. Both
have been sights of interesting holidays, hee hee.
Take care,
Ashe

Ashe

unread,
Feb 24, 2002, 5:19:28 PM2/24/02
to
thumbscr...@yahoo.co.uk (Malange duPre) wrote:

Or in this case do-gooders with sheep-like devotion to the wefare of
multimillionaires.
Take care,
Ashe

Jenny Horsburgh

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 4:26:58 PM2/25/02
to
What evidence have you got that most of us are not fans?

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message

news:fq3l7ug022mmkj8eo...@4ax.com...


> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002 22:19:28 GMT, din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote:
>
>
> >Or in this case do-gooders with sheep-like devotion to the wefare of
> >multimillionaires.
> >Take care,
> >Ashe
>

> I love the way you love to hate the rich. Me thinks you are a bit envious
of
> Anne's success. Anyone who would think the reason I notified Anne was
because
> I'm sheep-like has some pretty interesting work that needs to be done in
> therapy. This has nothing to do with money. Nothing.
>
> I am a fan of Anne Rice. Obviously, most people left in this dismally
boring
> newsgroup are not fans.


Isis

unread,
Feb 25, 2002, 10:43:52 PM2/25/02
to
> >
> > I am a fan of Anne Rice. Obviously, most people left in this dismally
> boring
> > newsgroup are not fans.

Just because we can be objective about her work does not make anyone
here less of a fan. Apparently you are under the impression that
someone died and made you Queen of the Anne Rice Fans. That we all
must live up to some standard you have set. We do not. And I find it
hard to believe that you are a published writer if you can honestly
say that "Merrick" and "The Vampire Armand" exhibit the same quality
of writing that IwtV did or even TWH. There is no editing, the
characters have important points of their pasts re-written because she
has been too lazy to research her own work, and the plots are vapid.
Especially when compared to the intricate and massive plot of QotD.
This woman is not God. She can write crap, as she keeps proving again
and again. Just because I love her old work doesn't mean I have to
love anything she puts out, especially if it is meaningless shit. I
am still a fan. So maybe you could step down off the high horse and
join us?

-Daizy

David Thomas

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 12:58:38 AM2/26/02
to
>Just because we can be objective

I'm not sure what you write can be called objective.

>Apparently you are under the impression that
>someone died and made you Queen of the Anne Rice Fans. That we all
>must live up to some standard you have set. We do not.

It's... Queen of the Damned Anne Rice Fans! Akasha, coming to make you live up
to her standards, ::takes on the horrid voice in the movie:: or die.

>that "Merrick" and "The Vampire Armand" exhibit the same quality
>of writing that IwtV did or even TWH.

Same quality. Not the same type of writing, but they were every bit as good as
it gets.

>There is no editing,

Really?

>the
>characters have important points of their pasts re-written

Enlighten me as to the details of this, please.

>the plots are vapid

Well, I suppose you expect Rice to live up to *your* standards, Queeny.

>This woman is not God.

In her books, she is.

>She can write crap, as she keeps proving again
>and again.

It's only a four letter word, but I didn't know that it appeared in her works
so often. I guess I'll have to go back and look for it, along with those
character rewrites.

>Just because I love her old work doesn't mean I have to
>love anything she puts out, especially if it is meaningless shit. I
>am still a fan.

I would question your fandom if you liked less than half her work.

>So maybe you could step down off the high horse and
>join us?

Irony...


Je veux m'enfuir, ne jamais dire au revoir; connaitre la verite, au lieu de me
demander pourquoi.
Je veux connaitre les reponses, ne plus de mensonges.
Je veux fermer la porte et ouvrir mon esprit; je vais m'en aller. - Linkin
Park, "Run Away"
- Vae

Annie

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 6:07:38 AM2/26/02
to
vael...@aol.comUspamao (David Thomas) wrote in message news:<20020226005838...@mb-fs.aol.com>...

> >There is no editing,
>
> Really?

Yes, really. Anne does not allow editing any more than she allows
fanfiction.
Apparently, she is of the opinion that brilliant and successful
writers do not NEED editing as they are above mundane human foibles
such as typos and plot flaws.

In fact, if you read Merrick CLOSELY, you will find a minor character
who undergoes a miraculous name change for a chapter or two before she
wakes up to the mistake (or maybe not) and changes his name back to
the original.

That's just one example. I leave it to you to take the blinkers off
and find the others. :)

ML

Malange duPre

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 10:03:24 AM2/26/02
to
ravens_...@yahoo.com.au (Annie) wrote in message news:<87a2b6a4.02022...@posting.google.com>...

> vael...@aol.comUspamao (David Thomas) wrote in message news:<20020226005838...@mb-fs.aol.com>...
>
> > >There is no editing,
> >
> > Really?
>
> Yes, really. Anne does not allow editing any more than she allows
> fanfiction.
> Apparently, she is of the opinion that brilliant and successful
> writers do not NEED editing as they are above mundane human foibles
> such as typos and plot flaws.

Yes. Again. This is very very true. She does not permit editors.

And then there was the ANGEL TIME disaster, a book SO BAD the
publishers sent it back to her. Heh, We were spared that.

I honestly wish the woman would have stopped writing while she was
ahead. When Servant of the Bones came out, it was as if she had
developed a second personality who couldn't write.

The early books - IWTV, TVL, QotD, and Cry to Heaven - ESPECIALLY Cry
to Heaven - are beautifully written, evocative works. They were
written with love and from the heart. You can tell. Cry to Heaven is
so perfect, historically speaking. There was real research involved.

The fanfiction business is such a turnaround. Her publishers knew
about it and even had a link to the old archive. Hell, she even
"permitted" links to the ficwriter's sites when her web page first
went up.

Bugger it, this has turned into a rant instead of a reply, but with
this NG that's nothing really new.

Malange

Mekare

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 2:13:10 PM2/26/02
to
I loved Servant of the Bones! I really love that book... Pitty you don't
feel that way.


"Malange duPre" <thumbscr...@yahoo.co.uk> schreef in bericht
news:ad4684aa.02022...@posting.google.com...

Lavendermorn

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 4:03:51 PM2/26/02
to
>
>Maybe she didn't want another George Lucas situation on her hands where
>other people write about the characters and develop them in a certain
>way and then when Anne comes to write more books she has to explain to
>everyone why she is completely changing/disregarding what others have
>wrote
>
>

I seriously doubt if this was the reason she come down so hard on the
ficwriters. As someone mentioned before, her personality did a flipflop.

Comparing George Lucas to AR is pretty good. Gave me a smile. After all GL
created Jar Jar Binks... and Anne created merWRECK.

Em

Azzyboo

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 5:24:36 PM2/26/02
to
Servant of the Bones and Cry to Heaven are my favorites

Azzy

lynze

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 8:17:18 PM2/26/02
to
"Mekare" <mek...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message news:<a5gn2k$26do$1...@scavenger.euro.net>...

Servant of the Bones is an under appreciated work. I think some of
her sloppiness occured when she was doing the two book a year deal-too
much pressure. Even though I always like her work. I think sometimes
she serves the green God a little too much with the Lestat license
plates and barbie dolls. I mean seriously I like money but how much do
you really need?

Ashe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 8:52:29 PM2/26/02
to
animaux <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote:

>
>I love the way you love to hate the rich. Me thinks you are a bit envious of
>Anne's success. Anyone who would think the reason I notified Anne was because
>I'm sheep-like has some pretty interesting work that needs to be done in
>therapy. This has nothing to do with money. Nothing.
>

>I am a fan of Anne Rice. Obviously, most people left in this dismally boring
>newsgroup are not fans.

Humm, jealous of Rice's success? Let me think about that. Honesty, I
might be jealous if she was still putting out the work she used to be
capable of, but now...hardly. Personally, the crap I've seen this
woman spew lately I'd be ashamed to put my name to if I were her.
(Laughing) I mean, a typo is one thing...changing a character's name
in mid-story is quite another. How could a responsible author miss
something like that. Oh yes, she is above using an editor.
I don't hate the rich. Personally, I don't really have any opinions
about the rich as they are just as capable of positive or negative
actions as the rest of us.
Ashe

Isis

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 8:56:21 PM2/26/02
to
> Same quality. Not the same type of writing, but they were every bit as good as
> it gets.

Okay then, give me examples. And explain why and how more recent
books are comparable to the quality of the first four books. You want
to debate then you better back yourself up.

> >There is no editing,
>
> Really?

Yes, really. Hence the the other posts saying "There is no editing."
Of course, how anyone could not see that for themselves when reading
some of this drivel, I don't know.

> Enlighten me as to the details of this, please.

How about the fact that Pandora is Greek in QotD and then suddenly and
inexplicably in "Pandora" she is Roman. Or perhaps the fact that
Lestat is invincible, but Maharet can apparently bind him in chains.
Memnoch the Devil is an entire book of character flaws. Two of which
were Mael and Armand sacrificing themselves to the sun over Veronica's
Veil, when Armand believed in nothing and Mael was a Pagan.


>
> >the plots are vapid
>
> Well, I suppose you expect Rice to live up to *your* standards, Queeny.

Um, isn't the whole reason someone becomes a writer the hope that
someone will want to read it? And no, they aren't my standards.
These are standards she set for herself years ago when she first wrote
IWTV. And I am not the only one if you'll look around a little bit.
In fact, she is selling off property right now to keep her head above
water. So it appears that my opinion or "standards" seem to be in the
majority.


>
> >This woman is not God.
>
> In her books, she is.

In her own mind she is. And, apparently, to some of her more
sheeplike fans she is.

> I would question your fandom if you liked less than half her work.

I question your intelligence if you think she is living up to the
precedent she set for herself. I judge "fandom" by amount of money
spent. Alot of my money has gone to this woman and I have the first
editions to prove it. And yes, I get pissed if I have forked out $25
on a hardcover novel that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.


>
> >So maybe you could step down off the high horse and
> >join us?
>
> Irony...

Which could also apply to you answering a post that was not directed
at you, but to each his own.

-Daizy

Ashe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 9:09:36 PM2/26/02
to
thumbscr...@yahoo.co.uk (Malange duPre) wrote:

>There is no editing,
>> >
>> > Really?
>>
>> Yes, really. Anne does not allow editing any more than she allows
>> fanfiction.
>> Apparently, she is of the opinion that brilliant and successful
>> writers do not NEED editing as they are above mundane human foibles
>> such as typos and plot flaws.
>
>Yes. Again. This is very very true. She does not permit editors.
>
>And then there was the ANGEL TIME disaster, a book SO BAD the
>publishers sent it back to her. Heh, We were spared that.

Really? I thought Angel Time was the thing that was going to be the
tv series I didn't know it was supposed to be a book.
Take care,
Ashe

Ashe

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 9:23:15 PM2/26/02
to
animaux <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote:


>I love the way you love to hate the rich. Me thinks you are a bit envious of
>Anne's success. Anyone who would think the reason I notified Anne was because
>I'm sheep-like has some pretty interesting work that needs to be done in
>therapy. This has nothing to do with money. Nothing.

Oh, and we are playing the "needed therapy" card, are we. I'll just
take that as a sign that you don't really have anything more
interesting to say about the matter, and refuse to challenge me on the
real issue of thread. I'll just consider you in check-mate, game over,
but you should be able to start all over again with Marcus. I'll be
watching and laughing.
Ashe

Isis

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 10:41:53 PM2/26/02
to
> > Oy. Leave it to you to change the subject.

To me? And what am I to you since this is the first thread I've ever
replied to on this newsgroup?

We are talking about
> copyright.
> > Since you have nothing copyrighted, it wouldn't bother you to steal from
> someone
> > who does.

Excuse me but I absolutely DO have something copyrighted. In fact
many things as I own my own company. Let's not put the plow before
the horse with our presumption, okay?


>And pot is legal to smoke in Denmark.

Well, as someone who lives in Denmark pointed out, no it's not.

What does any of that
> have
> > to do with theft of intellectual property?

This is called a comparison. The threat of being sued successfully
for copyright infringement on the net is taken about as seriously as
being arrested for marijuana. Is the threat there? Sure. Does it
cause people to stop smoking pot? No. Just let me know next time you
need me to spell things out for you in a more simplistic manner.

To NightRaven -

> BTW, pot is NOT legal to smoke in Denmark. I live in
> Norway, so I should know.

I noticed she didn't reply to this post as you proved her wrong. But
BEWARE! Don't spell anything incorrectly! She is apparently exempt
from human error, but lives to point it out in others. *snort*

Daizy

Robyn

unread,
Feb 26, 2002, 11:09:57 PM2/26/02
to

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message
news:nh8o7uohdg4obe736...@4ax.com...

your logic is ridiculous. there's good fiction, and bad fiction. just
because a book is fictitious it doesn't earn itself the right to be badly
written and have an inconsistent plot!


> I don't look for the same things you look for. I have learned to suspend
> disbelief when I read fiction. There's no such thing as vampires. So, by
your
> standard, Anne shouldn't write about vampires because they don't exist.


David Thomas

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 1:16:36 AM2/27/02
to
>In fact, if you read Merrick CLOSELY, you will find a minor character
>who undergoes a miraculous name change for a chapter or two before she
>wakes up to the mistake (or maybe not) and changes his name back to
>the original.

I really don't want to (translation: don't have time to) read Merrick over
carefully. Can you please just blurt it out?

David Thomas

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 1:26:50 AM2/27/02
to
>Okay then, give me examples. And explain why and how more recent
>books are comparable to the quality of the first four books. You want
>to debate then you better back yourself up.

In the world of science, I would laugh at you. Hell, I'll do it anyways.
You're the one making the literary claim. You back your claim up, then I'll
argue.

>Yes, really. Hence the the other posts saying "There is no editing."
>Of course, how anyone could not see that for themselves when reading
>some of this drivel, I don't know.

And you claim to be a fan?

>How about the fact that Pandora is Greek in QotD and then suddenly and
>inexplicably in "Pandora" she is Roman.

I'll have to look this up. I don't have a copy of QotD handy.

>Or perhaps the fact that
>Lestat is invincible, but Maharet can apparently bind him in chains.

There's something contradictory about that?

>Two of which
>were Mael and Armand sacrificing themselves to the sun over Veronica's
>Veil, when Armand believed in nothing and Mael was a Pagan.

Armand believes nothing, eh? Ack. Have you read nothing? Armand is a
tortured believer. He believes, no matter how powerfully the lack of meaning
seems. Either you've overanalyzed or not analyzed enough. Which, I know not.

>Um, isn't the whole reason someone becomes a writer the hope that
>someone will want to read it?

Not necessarily. I write to express myself. If someone happens to want to
read it, then that's quite nice. I somewhat wonder what motivations Anne has.
That is, really has.

>And no, they aren't my standards.
>These are standards she set for herself years ago when she first wrote
>IWTV. And I am not the only one if you'll look around a little bit.
>In fact, she is selling off property right now to keep her head above
>water. So it appears that my opinion or "standards" seem to be in the
>majority.

None of this matters. You don't like her new writing. That's all well and
good. Still doesn't give you a right to libel her.

>In her own mind she is. And, apparently, to some of her more
>sheeplike fans she is.

Bitter cynicism. Find a self-help book.

>I question your intelligence if you think she is living up to the
>precedent she set for herself.

I question your taste if you think she hasn't.

>I judge "fandom" by amount of money
>spent. Alot of my money has gone to this woman and I have the first
>editions to prove it. And yes, I get pissed if I have forked out $25
>on a hardcover novel that isn't worth the paper it's printed on.

Not her fault, or mine, if you've done some unwise spending.

>Which could also apply to you answering a post that was not directed
>at you, but to each his own.

So I'm rude and butt in? Oh well.

Mekare

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 2:28:09 AM2/27/02
to

"Ashe" <din...@mindspring.com> schreef in bericht
news:3c7c3a5d...@news.mindspring.com...

What character are you talking about?


Annie

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 6:12:09 AM2/27/02
to
"Mekare" <mek...@wanadoo.nl> wrote in message

> What character are you talking about?


Merrick, the book. The character, the guy the died in the jungle.
I can't remember his name. Not that it matters, he had two of them at
one point! LOL

ML

Annie

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 6:16:39 AM2/27/02
to
>Until Anne wrote something which closely resembled something a fan wrote and
>that fan had the balls to scream and threaten law suit because Anne stole his
>idea. What balls. THAT'S why.


Ummm...I'll think you'll find that this happened to Mercedes Lackey NOT Anne Rice.

ML

Jenny Horsburgh

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 2:33:20 PM2/27/02
to
Anne is a respetable writer, who is making money from her books. When
aomeone spends so much money for a hardback, they'd be pissed off to find
studip mistakes in it. It shows the book has not been written with care.
This is a newsgroup, it doesn't matter if we make spelling errors. I know
you'd never make any, because you're just perfect, aren't you.


"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message

news:nkrp7ukrklkc461bg...@4ax.com...


> On 26 Feb 2002 19:41:53 -0800, daizy_de...@hotmail.com (Isis) wrote:
>
>
> >I noticed she didn't reply to this post as you proved her wrong. But
> >BEWARE! Don't spell anything incorrectly! She is apparently exempt
> >from human error, but lives to point it out in others. *snort*
> >
> >Daizy
>

> I was doing to you what is being done to Anne. You didn't like it,
obviously.


Isis

unread,
Feb 27, 2002, 11:29:47 PM2/27/02
to
> In the world of science, I would laugh at you. Hell, I'll do it anyways.
> You're the one making the literary claim. You back your claim up, then I'll
> argue.

No, you made the claim that the more recent novels are just as good as
the earlier ones. Support your statement. I have given many
instances as to why I feel they fall short. Bad characterization,
screwed up continuity, and no editing. And now it's your turn. So
stop laughing and start typing.

> And you claim to be a fan?

I am a fan. I love the the first four novels in the VC's. I enjoyed
TWH and Lasher, the Beauty books, CTH, Belinda, and Exit to Eden.
When someone who has written novels like these and then becomes so
obviously lazy, sloppy, and greedy it is painful. Because you see the
transition, and it is exasperating when a writer you used to love is
no longer taking the time to write good caliber work. I have been
reading Anne's work for over ten years now. Just because I can
recognize sloppy work for what it is does not diminish the impact or
enjoyment I used to receive from her work.

> I'll have to look this up. I don't have a copy of QotD handy.

"And you call yourself a fan?!" =P The first mention of it is in
TVL. Do you have that book? TVL: Pg. 403 "I was madly in love with a
beautiful brown-haired GREEK courtesan named Pandora," Now, jump to
the novel "Pandora" and suddenly she is Roman, the daughter of a
prominent senator, and Pandora isn't even her real name. ?????
Sloppy.

> There's something contradictory about that?

Yes. Lestat had drunk from Akasha on more than one occasion. The sun
couldn't even kill him. Yet Maharet can bind him? How? Why?

>
> Armand believes nothing, eh? Ack. Have you read nothing? Armand is a
> tortured believer. He believes, no matter how powerfully the lack of meaning
> seems.

And in which book did you find this? And if you say TVA you're
proving me right. IWTV: Pg. 215 "Is this the only power that
obsesses you, so that you must make us gods and devils yourself when
the only power that exists is inside ourselves? How could you believe
in these old fantastical lies, these myths, these emblems of the
supernatural?"
Hmmm...Fantastical lies and myths. Doesn't sound to much like a
devout follower of Christ to me.

> Not necessarily. I write to express myself. If someone happens to want to
> read it, then that's quite nice. I somewhat wonder what motivations Anne has.

I think Anne is past the point of "Oh I think I'll just write in my
journal today and hope someone reads it.", don't you? Her motivation
now is greed.

> None of this matters. You don't like her new writing. That's all well and
> good. Still doesn't give you a right to libel her.

I don't. I simply enjoy reading it because it's better than anything
she has written in ages. And noone else is libelling her either.
There are very few laws for publishing on the net. The internet is an
exchange of information. See the rest of this thread about laws etc.
It is a gray area.

> Bitter cynicism. Find a self-help book.

For cynicism? I wasn't aware that was a problem that required a
self-help book.

> I question your taste if you think she hasn't.

And we're still waiting for you to back up these statements......

> Not her fault, or mine, if you've done some unwise spending.

When a writer disappoints and loses their fans, yes it is their fault.
And anyone who says they haven't bought a book by an author based on
their past achievements is lying. Especially in a series, like the
VC's. The fact that I buy a book with, what I don't think, are high
expectations and am then disappointed is not my fault. Especially
when it is due to trivial things like incontinuity and bad
characterization. I mean, really. These are things an author should
know like the back of their hand if they created these characters.

-Daizy

Mekare

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 1:59:34 AM2/28/02
to

"Isis" <daizy_de...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:6e2ad1c7.02022...@posting.google.com...

> > In the world of science, I would laugh at you. Hell, I'll do it
anyways.
> > You're the one making the literary claim. You back your claim up, then
I'll
> > argue.

> "And you call yourself a fan?!" =P The first mention of it is in


> TVL. Do you have that book? TVL: Pg. 403 "I was madly in love with a
> beautiful brown-haired GREEK courtesan named Pandora," Now, jump to
> the novel "Pandora" and suddenly she is Roman, the daughter of a
> prominent senator, and Pandora isn't even her real name. ?????
> Sloppy.
>

Pandora wanted no links to her real family, neighter does Marius. Pandora
pretended to be Greek, why should Marius hold that picture for Lestat - who
is only a bratt? It is up to Pandora to tell her real story... I found this
logical and not at all sloppy.

> Yes. Lestat had drunk from Akasha on more than one occasion. The sun
> couldn't even kill him. Yet Maharet can bind him? How? Why?

How: with her hair, like she bound Thorne. Why: he was out of controle,
might have done harmful things to either himself and maybe the vampire rase.


> > Armand believes nothing, eh? Ack. Have you read nothing? Armand is a
> > tortured believer. He believes, no matter how powerfully the lack of
meaning
> > seems.
>
> And in which book did you find this? And if you say TVA you're
> proving me right. IWTV: Pg. 215 "Is this the only power that
> obsesses you, so that you must make us gods and devils yourself when
> the only power that exists is inside ourselves? How could you believe
> in these old fantastical lies, these myths, these emblems of the
> supernatural?"
> Hmmm...Fantastical lies and myths. Doesn't sound to much like a
> devout follower of Christ to me.

TVA: Pg 6 "to tell of what had happend , the legende of Veronica's Veil and
the Face of Our Lord emblazoned upon it, and the morning when I had given up
my soul with such perfect happiness. What a fable it was."

At one point he did believe and I think he still does, he keeps denying it
to himself and then giving in. He doesn't believe but he keeps talking about
things like "God's Creation" and on page 299 is the part about him seeing
the Veil which is followed by him going into the sun. That is what I call a
tortured kind of believe. He believes and then he doesn't and then he does
and then he doesn't etc.


Jenny Horsburgh

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 7:05:29 PM2/28/02
to
Well, judging by your sarcastic, patronising remarks that have, by now, been
directed at just about everyone in the newsgroup, you feel yourself to be
above everyone else. But then, I think the reason why you pick on people's
stupid typing mistakes is because you have nothing better so say. Now, note
this is my opinion, seeing as you tend to have a problem with people having
their opinions.

Oh, and by the way, I know the layout of my local library like to back of my
hand, and I'm proud of it. I know what Anne Rice books they have and which
one's they haven't got. I've borrowed countless books from the library and
I don't need you to make out like I'm stupid becaue I do know how to make
good use of literary resources. However, I believe that people paying for
books at a high price deserve to get their money's worth. Books with
mistakes in them are kind of insulting of Anne Rice's status, don't you
think? She is a respected writer. It's kind of ridiculous that she cant be
bothered to do a simple thing as to make sure there are no silly mistales in
her works before printing. Is that not a fair argument?

"animaux" <ani...@jiknnbvk.net> wrote in message

news:v5mq7u0169tvm86o1...@4ax.com...
> How would you know I'm perfect? Ever meet me? I have no idea who you
are. Do
> you edit your own posts? Wow, if you do.
>
> By the way, there is this fabulous institution called the Public Library.
In my
> town, I pay 327 dollars a year in taxes to support that library so people
can
> walk in and borrow books for free. You pay taxes for the library too.
>
> You have no reason to spend a dime on any book. Borrow it free.

Isis

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 8:12:25 PM2/28/02
to
> Pandora wanted no links to her real family, neighter does Marius. Pandora
> pretended to be Greek, why should Marius hold that picture for Lestat - who
> is only a bratt? It is up to Pandora to tell her real story... I found this
> logical and not at all sloppy.

This seems all very contrived to me. As in "Oh, I started writing
this and I forgot Pandora is Greek, so I'll make up this half-assed
reason for the mistake." Besides, Pandora was no longer in Greece,
and if Lestat had really wanted to find her or her family he could
have down so easily through telepathy. It is just this kind of
silliness and lack of planning that irritates me about the more recent
books.

> How: with her hair, like she bound Thorne. Why: he was out of controle,
> might have done harmful things to either himself and maybe the vampire rase.
>

WHY can she bind him with her hair? She is not the Queen, Mekare is.

>
> At one point he did believe and I think he still does, he keeps denying it
> to himself and then giving in. He doesn't believe but he keeps talking about
> things like "God's Creation" and on page 299 is the part about him seeing
> the Veil which is followed by him going into the sun. That is what I call a
> tortured kind of believe. He believes and then he doesn't and then he does
> and then he doesn't etc.

But this is my point. This tortured belief was never in evidence
until the later books. He was adamant in the earlier novels that he
believed in nothing. It is another situation of "I better get out of
this." She killed off Armand in Memnoch and then everyone was pissed,
so not only did she have to resurrect him, but she had to give a
reasonable explanation as to why he would do such a thing. Hence, the
whole boring novel TVA.

-Daizy

Lane

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 8:23:08 PM2/28/02
to

"Isis" <daizy_de...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6e2ad1c7.02022...@posting.google.com...

I would agree to that TVA -was- a boring novel.. completely ruined his
character for me.. but I suppose that's like someone said here a couple days
ago - something like if you can endure a characters faults and still like
them then you really do like them, or understand maybe .. but feck it, it's
just too much whiney crap for me... wah wah wah..

Lane


TomGim

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 10:46:11 PM2/28/02
to
din...@mindspring.com (Ashe) wrote in message news:<3c7c3a5d...@news.mindspring.com>...


While I understand that you can still be a fan and disapprove of some
of the material, lately many people are beginning to sound more like
King's Annie Wilkes. Why are people slamming this woman's work ... ?
I mean I also felt a change in her writing style after QOTD .. but ..
if we consider the past motivation for the first installment of the
chronicles namely, the passing of her daughter Michelle, I believe
that vulnerability and very powerful emotions definately contributed
to the inspiration for the creation of IWTV, but she's not an
emotional production line and sooner or later she had to progress
beyond that to a new period of her life both as a person and an
author. I still respect her work and her decision to continue the
Vampire Chronicles which I believe was as much motivated by a genuine
desire to give to hungry audiences like us as much as any supposed
literary and financial acclaim.

David Thomas

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 11:34:03 PM2/28/02
to
>No, you made the claim that the more recent novels are just as good as
>the earlier ones. Support your statement. I have given many
>instances as to why I feel they fall short. Bad characterization,
>screwed up continuity, and no editing. And now it's your turn. So
>stop laughing and start typing.

No no no no no...

Allow me to explain it to you...
You said the novels were getting bad... You say what you think is bad
about them, but you don't provide examples. You only make claims. If you only
say what you think is wrong, without providing examples (quotes, page numbers,
et cetera), then you're providing an opinion. Until you back that up, I could
merely say 'No, her characterization was flawless, her continuity divine, and
her need of editing zero,' and that would refute your 'argument' perfectly,
since it provides the same evidence that yours does.
Only when you have provided a real argument will I argue. I cannot
determine the validity of your argument until you provide one.

>I am a fan. I love the the first four novels in the VC's. I enjoyed
>TWH and Lasher, the Beauty books, CTH, Belinda, and Exit to Eden.

I believe you.

>When someone who has written novels like these and then becomes so
>obviously lazy, sloppy, and greedy it is painful. Because you see the
>transition, and it is exasperating when a writer you used to love is
>no longer taking the time to write good caliber work. I have been
>reading Anne's work for over ten years now. Just because I can
>recognize sloppy work for what it is does not diminish the impact or
>enjoyment I used to receive from her work.

...Riiight...

>The first mention of it is in
>TVL. Do you have that book? TVL: Pg. 403 "I was madly in love with a
>beautiful brown-haired GREEK courtesan named Pandora,"

I read in my copy of TVL from page 395 (Marius's Story - 5 "It happened
my fortieth year...") to page 415 (begin 7 "Do not be afraid, Marius. I wait
for you. Take the light and come to me.")... I even went all the way back to
Page 375 (begin 3 "I came into a brightly illuminated...") I cannot in any of
this find what you say, "I was madly in love with a beautiful brown-haired
GREEK courtesan named Pandora," nor any mention of Pandora. Perhaps it's not
in my edition? I have... let's see... ISBN 0-345-31386-0, First Ballantine
Books Edition: Oct 1986. I wonder if you have an earlier edition and it was...
forgive me, edited out. I would find that kind of ironic. Anyhow...

>Now, jump to
>the novel "Pandora" and suddenly she is Roman, the daughter of a
>prominent senator, and Pandora isn't even her real name. ?????
>Sloppy.

Hmm... let's see... ::looks:: I have, BTW, ISBN 0-345-42238-4, First
Ballantine Books Edition: 1999... now, that aside...
If I recall correctly, Pandora moved to Antioch after the death of her
family. She was supposed to marry a Greek, but instead took up an independant
life. She there met Marius once more, and at the time functioned as an
independant lady--something which I believe one could very much call the
capacity of a 'courtesan.'

>Yes. Lestat had drunk from Akasha on more than one occasion. The sun
>couldn't even kill him. Yet Maharet can bind him? How? Why?

Well, Maharet is old, powerful. Even the infusion of Akasha's powerful
blood could not provide Lestat with power enough to break Maharet's bonds.
Also, considering that they were of her hair and gold, I bet there was some
untold magic in the mix. Also, many times the bonds were coupled in prose with
her blood--powerful and old, the two go hand in hand, her blood is surely more
powerful than the mixture that now flows in Lestat. Why is a whole other
question, and I didn't get that myself... it makes me curious though. I bet
it was a plant.

>IWTV: Pg. 215 "Is this the only power that
>obsesses you, so that you must make us gods and devils yourself when
>the only power that exists is inside ourselves? How could you believe
>in these old fantastical lies, these myths, these emblems of the
>supernatural?"

You speak as if logic dictates all and experience matters for naught.
Have you ever dealt with the psychology of an atheist? An agnostic?
Very few of them believe in nothing. Indeed, most of those who one would
characterize as a devout Christian are those most eligible to be non-believers.
Armand is just a hypocrite, somewhat.

>I think Anne is past the point of "Oh I think I'll just write in my
>journal today and hope someone reads it.", don't you? Her motivation
>now is greed.

Okay, so I'll be an ass... So friggin' what? America is great because
one can come here and make the almighty dollar. Money = power, and corruption
is the new politics. Perhaps we should focus on the many corporations that are
butt-fucking consumers? Or maybe we should look at the fact that we can do it
ourselves and be rich. Is it evil? Maybe.

>It is a gray area.

I'm a firm believer in the spectrum of circumstance in any matter, but
this argument is rarely used well.

>For cynicism? I wasn't aware that was a problem that required a
>self-help book.

It's unhealthy.

>And we're still waiting for you to back up these statements......

I've provided as much proof as you have. Besides, my statement was not
that your taste is poor, but rather that it would fall under those things in my
scrutiny if you believe Anne hasn't lived up to her standards.

>When a writer disappoints and loses their fans, yes it is their fault.
> And anyone who says they haven't bought a book by an author based on
>their past achievements is lying. Especially in a series, like the
>VC's. The fact that I buy a book with, what I don't think, are high
>expectations and am then disappointed is not my fault. Especially
>when it is due to trivial things like incontinuity and bad
>characterization. I mean, really. These are things an author should
>know like the back of their hand if they created these characters.

I'm going off to eat.

David Thomas

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 11:42:36 PM2/28/02
to
>This seems all very contrived to me.

Poor you.

>It is just this kind of
>silliness and lack of planning that irritates me about the more recent
>books.

No silliness here. Rice has done a great job. She writes gradually, coming up
with characters and stories as she goes along, and I haven't seen any
continuity errors yet. From what you keep writing it seems like you expect
completely static characters who never change. After all, if Pandora was said
to be Greek in TVL, she MUST be Greek throughout! ::rolls eyes::

>WHY can she bind him with her hair? She is not the Queen, Mekare is.

Old, powerful, 'nuff said.

>But this is my point. This tortured belief was never in evidence
>until the later books.

The earlier books only tell of one part of his life. They only account for his
'Bridge of Sighs,' until QotD.

>She killed off Armand in Memnoch and then everyone was pissed,
>so not only did she have to resurrect him, but she had to give a
>reasonable explanation as to why he would do such a thing. Hence, the
>whole boring novel TVA.

LMAO... have you never written anything of such breadth as Rice's works?

David Thomas

unread,
Feb 28, 2002, 11:46:09 PM2/28/02