The Question: Is God "All Powerful"?
Mike Ferguson
>bren...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
>>
>> In <dwatkins-020...@dwatkins.easynet.co.uk>, dwat...@easynet.co.uk (David Watkins) writes:
>> >In article <4jr722$l...@sphinx.Gsu.EDU>, an...@gs.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> :Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>> >
>> >The question assumes God's benevolence. " There is no logical reason why
>> >an all knowing and all powerful Being should not be a total shit." Can
>> >anyone identify the author of this quotation?
Why does an All Powerful and All Knowing God allow evil? Because it
is a gift! You see, God cannot die, and thus he let's us die, for it
is the only thing he cannot do. Evil? God cannot experience pain,
and so he gives it to us! These are all gifts.
That's an easy question. How about these:
1) Can God make a rock so big, that he cannot lift it?
2) If heaven were so perfect, why do angels rebel?
Mike Ferguson, the Zealot
http://www.angelfire.com/free/okey.html
Kurt Fanslow
>bren...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
>>
>> In <dwatkins-020...@dwatkins.easynet.co.uk>, dwat...@easynet.co.uk (David Watkins) writes:
>> >In article <4jr722$l...@sphinx.Gsu.EDU>, an...@gs.com wrote:
>> >
>> >> :Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>> >
>> >The question assumes God's benevolence. " There is no logical reason why
>> >an all knowing and all powerful Being should not be a total shit." Can
>> >anyone identify the author of this quotation?
>>
>> John Constantine?
>>
>> Christopher B. Wright (bren...@richmond.infi.net) Team OS/2
>> +---------------------------------------------------
>> +"We are all born originals - why is it so many of us die copies?"
>> +(Edward Young)
>> +---------------------------------------------------
>> +It's a shame politicians don't eat their young - if they did, the
>> +gene pool would be a lot cleaner.
>> +---------------------------------------------------
Why are these always crossposted to inappropriate newsgroups
Leo Mauler
[lots snipped]
>That's an easy question. How about these:
[snip!]
>2) If heaven were so perfect, why do angels rebel?
I recall a movie called "Bedazzled" in which Peter Cook as
the Devil explains to Dudley Moore (the hapless "sold his
soul to the Devil" character) exactly why he, as Lucifer,
"fell":
Devil: Okay, I'll be God, you be me. Praise me!
Dudley: <praising>
Devil: Good, now praise me some more!
Dudley: <praising>
<continues ad nauseum>
Devil: Good, now praise me some more!
Dudley: Can we give it a rest?
Devil: THAT'S exactly what I said! And what got me
thrown out!
I find it entirely believable... :)
cmi...@e-tex.com
wrote:
>No way, either there's good and evil or there's not. If God grants us
>free will then it is him who creates evil, am I right? If God doesn't
>grant us free will, then any evil actions we perform are not our fault
>since we are mere puppets so then God is evil. Or God is a paradox, and
>like most paradoxes is unfathomable by the human mid and most likely not
>real.
So if I have a child and I have them under my teaching for 18
years and teach them it is wrong to steal and hurt others. I have
taught them right from wrong: they are under my control; no
free-will. When I let them move out they rob a bank and kill the
teller did I make the child a bank robber by allowing them to leave
home and make their own decision? Did I raise my child to be evil. Am
I responsible for their actions.... of course not. Neither did I raise
them to be as they are since they had the free will to do otherwise.
But in giving them freewill I allowed them to become what they are so
parental authority is a paradox and like most paradoxes is
unfathomable by the human mind and most likely parents are
not real.
Sounds good to me....(^8
The Manendez (sp?) brothers just got sentenced to life without
parole attempting the same defense you would have others believe of
evil acts being the fault of God. They wanted to blame Mama and Daddy,
and you God....
If needed you might try to get their attorney but you had better
hurry because their attorney is also being investigated for criminal
actions concerning an attempt to get a witness to delete certain
damaging evidence from a psychological report; I think that is what
it was..... But I bet it was not her fault...<BG>
CM
ITHISML
Charles Miles
cmi...@e-tex.com
Cory Brennan
>Ewolfe <Ewo...@wnstar.com> wrote:
>>bren...@richmond.infi.net wrote:
>>>
>>> In <dwatkins-020...@dwatkins.easynet.co.uk>, dwat...@easynet.co.uk (David Watkins) writes:
>>> >In article <4jr722$l...@sphinx.Gsu.EDU>, an...@gs.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> :Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>>> >
>>> >The question assumes God's benevolence. " There is no logical reason why
>>> >an all knowing and all powerful Being should not be a total shit." Can
>>> >anyone identify the author of this quotation?
>
>is a gift! You see, God cannot die, and thus he let's us die, for it
>is the only thing he cannot do. Evil? God cannot experience pain,
>and so he gives it to us! These are all gifts.
>
>
No, but He could pretend that He couldn't lift it, and would be so
perfect at pretending that He would believe it.
>2) If heaven were so perfect, why do angels rebel?
Because they decided, for various reasons, they were no longer worthy of
heaven so they removed themselves from it be rebelling.
Or, in order to create a game with two sides, good and evil.
There are a lot of answers to this one, actually!
Cory Brennan
/
Jeff Lee
> No way, either there's good and evil or there's not. If God grants us
> free will then it is him who creates evil, am I right?
Isaiah 45:7.
--
Jeff Lee (KoX/SP5) shi...@gate.net SCA: Lord Godfrey de Shipbrook
<< Geek Code (v3.1) & PGP public key at http://www.gate.net/~shipbrk/ >>
<< What kind of church needs an espionage and intelligence branch? >>
<< Read http://www.snafu.de/~tilman/j/berlin.html to find out. >>
YAA (Yet Another Al)
[some intelligent observations on free will snipped, for brevity]
>Given that the free will mechanism that each of us possess has,
>metaphorically speaking, "Made by God" stamped on its casing, it
>would seem that even evil which comes about as a result of humans'
>usage of their free will is still directly attributable to God.
>-- William December Starr <wds...@crl.com>
You missed an importan facet of xian thought. It goes like this:
God is good. God created the universe and everything in it.
<trip through Wonderland and some strange dimension here> God is
therefore not responsible for evil. It's out own fault.
You just don't understand this little wonderland/dimensional
thought loop here. Accept the lord and you too can have your
brain warped so this actually makes sense!
Frightening, isn't it?
Teemu T Vilen
In alt.bible YAA (Yet Another Al) <a...@efn.org> wrote:
[ munch munch ]
: wds...@crl.com (William December Starr) wrote:
: >would seem that even evil which comes about as a result of humans'
: >usage of their free will is still directly attributable to God.
:
: You missed an importan facet of xian thought. It goes like this:
: God is good. God created the universe and everything in it.
: <trip through Wonderland and some strange dimension here> God is
: therefore not responsible for evil. It's out own fault.
Ah, you both missed the point. Who could be so twisted, perverted
and chaotic that he would create a place like this and then send
his 'happy-message-of-better-place' book down here? Really think
that if there's an after life, it would be white and creamy pink
'heaven' of sorts? BWAHAHHAAHHAA
Why not blame the one who's guilty for what he has done?
: Frightening, isn't it?
YOU said it =)
--
+++Teemu
AgasRhamaEyoOiemagiFshiemNgooTramzsorghaghamGlerprietazh
MGOzlorbraAnamOwadjurTymughFkiEnarchuMzwegPlomgHroghYaAA
Amen.
Rick
Wow, I thought the title of this newsgroup was alt.rock and roll
----
Rick
I-am...@sub.atomic.particle.com
JohnHendricks <hend...@indy.net> wrote:
>>> In article <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>, I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>>>
>
>>> >God = Universe
>>> >Universe = God
>>
>> So it was the universe which delivered the "bible"?
Since all books are of the universe, all books are of God.
As far as the bible goes, it is one of many books written by man in an
attempt to create a guideline for social behaviour.
When it come to understanding the true nature of god, the bible does a
very poor job.
>>
>>> >God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
>>> >are all one and the same thing . Once you TRULY understand this,
>>> >everything else makes perfect sense.
--------------------------------------------
>>
>> I think I know what you're trying to say but I can't agree. You're just saying
>>that by redefining "god" to be the "universe" itself - you deny a "god" and all there is
>>is the universe.
I didn't re-define god, the christians are trying to.
>> The point in saying that there is a "god" means that there is something
>>other than the universe.
>> "god" can't create himself under your definition since in order for the universe
>>to have created itself it would have needed a sourse - a cause who's effect would be the
>>creation.
>>
>>> >The universe MUST have evil, if it didn't, what would we have to
>>> >compare the good against? You cannot have one without the other.
>>
>> Not bad - but to know about evil is not the same as experiencing it. One can
>>know about it withought experiencing it.
>The universe exists... a sea filled of energy and matter. God exists as a
>universal consciousness (intellectual being is a term which we can
>understand) within this universe. God exists simultaneously in "all," of
>time and space. God permiates all things; from the most minute particle
>to the most gigantic star, from solid to liquid, from the organic to
>inorganic, from the spiritual to the physical.
God does NOT permeate all things, God IS all things.
>To understand creation you must understand that the universe is composed
>of minute particles of sub-matter and energy. Energy is created by
>subtle, yet very powerful vibration of these particles. In the spiritual
>universe, the sheer immensity of God's consciousness
Everything, including YOU and I, ARE Gods consciousness.
>can generate waves
>of patterns of intense thought, to bring into existance whatever he/she
>so desires in the physical universe. Thought waves stimulate particles to
>create matter, which is synthesized to differentiate a particular pattern
>and in so doing creates the desired object, at the desired time and in
>the desired place. Time and space do not exist in the spiritual universe.
>What is a creation worth if you have nobody to share it with.
God (the universe) is not sharing anything with anyone other than
itself. We are of the universe, and cannot be considered "other than".
THIS IS IT.
>God created
>his spiritual family, Angels to share his spiritual relm, but perhaps
>this was not enough to satisfy the desire to share the physical universe.
>God then created the galaxies, earth and mankind in his own "image".
We aren't just "in his image", we are the original.
>Evil in the spiritual sense is anything which seperates God's creation
>from God. God gave mankind "free will," a special disposition which made
>mankind's soul was filled with the spirit and made equal to God in the
>physical universe, but not in the spiritual universe. Satan was God's
>most beautiful creation until mankind. Satan's heart was filled with
>vanity, which turned into a jealous rage over the creation of mankind.
>Satan plotted the destruction of mankind.
>God gave mankind the ability to "Choose," to worship him/her, and by so
>doing endowed mankind with a spirit, but this spirit was taken away when
>mankind rebelled against God (the biblical story of Adam, Eve and Satan).
>Mankind's soul was void of a spirit and no longer "pure," in the sense of
>a pure consciousness. Being impure, Mankind could no longer walk in the
>presence of God. Satan was also no longer pure and was cast out of God's
>presence to the physical universe, where he/she vowed to destroy mankind
>and God. God must have realized that mankind would become the prey and
>ploy of Satan, unable to protect itself from such a being and set about
>the creation of Jesus, the Christ.
>God established a special relationship through Noah's linage, to the
>Children of Israel and through the linage of one special family. He made
>certain that the Children of Israel would be able to recognize him as
>Jesus, "a man," when he appeared on this earth through the fulfillment of
>prophesy from chosen messengers or "holy men," and thus created the need
>for a chronicle of such prophecies and the history of the people who
>maintained those chronicles. Those chronicles became the Bible and that
>family linage became the tree of the redeemer of the lost soul's of
>mankind. Satan stalked the earth relatively unabated until the birth of
>Jesus, God incarnate as a man who created the spirit which we call the
>Christ.
>Respectfully,
>JohnHendricks
As mentioned before,
The above is taken from the bible, which is a compilation of many
myths handed down through the ages. It is one of many books written by
man in an attempt to create a guideline for social behaviour.
When it come to understanding the true nature of god, the bible does a
very poor job.
WE ARE GOD
God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
are all one and the same thing .
We are not a beings, separate from the universe. We and the universe
are all one and the same thing .
R. Beldner
In <4mi32v$g...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
I-am...@sub.atomic.particle.com writes:
>
>JohnHendricks <hend...@indy.net> wrote:
>
>>>> In article <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>>>>
[snip snip chop]
>>>> >God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the
universe
>>>> >are all one and the same thing . Once you TRULY understand this,
>>>> >everything else makes perfect sense.
[hack chop whack]
>God does NOT permeate all things, God IS all things.
>
>>To understand creation you must understand that the universe is composed
>>of minute particles of sub-matter and energy. Energy is created by
>>subtle, yet very powerful vibration of these particles. In the spiritual
>>universe, the sheer immensity of God's consciousness
>
>Everything, including YOU and I, ARE Gods consciousness.
>>can generate waves
>>of patterns of intense thought, to bring into existance whatever he/she
>>so desires in the physical universe. Thought waves stimulate particles to
>>create matter, which is synthesized to differentiate a particular pattern
>>and in so doing creates the desired object, at the desired time and in
>>the desired place. Time and space do not exist in the spiritual universe.
[clip clip snip]
>>Evil in the spiritual sense is anything which seperates God's creation
>>from God. God gave mankind "free will," a special disposition which made
>>mankind's soul was filled with the spirit and made equal to God in the
>>physical universe, but not in the spiritual universe. Satan was God's
>>most beautiful creation until mankind. Satan's heart was filled with
>>vanity, which turned into a jealous rage over the creation of mankind.
>>Satan plotted the destruction of mankind.
[hack whack chop]
>As mentioned before,
>The above is taken from the bible, which is a compilation of many
>myths handed down through the ages. It is one of many books written by
>man in an attempt to create a guideline for social behaviour.
>When it come to understanding the true nature of god, the bible does a
>very poor job.
>
>WE ARE GOD
>
>God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
>are all one and the same thing .
>
>We are not a beings, separate from the universe. We and the universe
>are all one and the same thing .
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++
Take this crap to alt.new-age or something!! Give me a break, people.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++
I-am...@sub.atomic.particle.com
beld...@ix.netcom.com(R. Beldner) wrote:
>In <4mi32v$g...@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
>I-am...@sub.atomic.particle.com writes:
>>
>>As mentioned before,
>>The above is taken from the bible, which is a compilation of many
>>myths handed down through the ages. It is one of many books written by
>>man in an attempt to create a guideline for social behaviour.
>>When it come to understanding the true nature of god, the bible does a
>>very poor job.
>>
>>
>>God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
>>are all one and the same thing .
>>
>>We are not a beings, separate from the universe. We and the universe
>>are all one and the same thing .
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>+++
>Take this crap to alt.new-age or something!! Give me a break, people.
>+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>+++
New age thinking has to many credulous adherents. (as do most
religious groups/newsgroups).
The view of "god" I have described, does not contradict any modern
scientific knowledge. The latest research in nuclear physics strongly
supports the zen view of the universe.
This newsgroup more closely fits my description of god, than any
other.
Shy....@edenbbs.com
[NOTE: non-topical newsgroups have been cut--- SD]
In article <4mj2ra$l...@alpha.pcix.com>, sol...@capecod.net
(Suzane Oliver) wrote:
> In article <4mioou$1...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> butte...@aol.com (Butterb657) wrote:
>> God did not "create" evil he created free-will for all his
>> angels and mankind. satan[sic] had a free-will and out of
>> that there was an amalgamation of sin.
That depends upon which gpod was is talking about: there are
tens of thousands, all with various aspects and attributes:
some created evil, others did not, and still others created
both good and evil.
Since this thread is on several Christian cult newsgroups,
maybe the author of the above was referring to Yahweh / the
god of Moses and Abraham, as reported in the Hebrew ("Old")
Testiment. If so, she or he is wrong: the Hebrew Testiment
clearly shows that god crowing proudly that he created evil.
> Defend your postiton with quotes, references, etc.
>
> How do you know god exists?
>
> How do you know free will exists?
>
> How do you know angels exist?
>
> How do you know satan[sic] exists?
>
> What do you think sin is?
>
> Thank you kindly
That's all pointless.
On point one, =ALL= of the gods exist in the human psyche,
though perhaps there are some that exist in real life (no one
knows, and I'm not the one to say gods do not exist).
On point two, we humans clearly do not have "free will." As
long as we require food, water, shelter, and expression of
our various inherant insticts (lust, hate, desire, love),
we CANNOT have "free will."
On angels, what would the gods need angels for? If gods
are being that are all-powerful, omnipresent, onmi-
potent, omni-benevolent etc., that leaves nothing for
angels to do. Therefore, if there are gods, it does not
seem likely to me that there are angels.
As for "Satan," that depends upon which aspects and
attributes one used to define "Satan." Monotheists
who believe in "Satan" often confuse it with other
beings such as Lucipher and Prometheus--- totally
different gods than "Satan." If by "Satan" one means
evil and wrong-doing, there is irrefutable evidence
that humans are all that's required to answer that
question. If one means by "Satan" the qualities of
truth, knowledge, wisdom, and a god that takes the
side of humanity against jealous god(s), Lucipher
and Prometheus would fit better.
And finally, as for "sin," I personally cannot imagine
what such a thing is. I believe, and the lack of
evidence for "sin" existing seems to support my belief,
that "sin" was created by Christians as a phantom
disease, to which they then created a phantom cure in
the form of a savior. This savior was, of course,
manufactured out of earlier gods.
So the answers to your questions seem to be, there
is no evidence for gods, "free will," angels, "Satan,"
and "sin." If there is such evidence, I wish whoever
had it would share it with the rest of the planet.
--
Rev David Michael Rice.
Mariner's Ministries, Dana Point, CA.
u100...@warwick.net
> In article <4ml0ej$k...@poppy.ezo.net>, s...@eznets.canton.oh.us (Steve) wrote:
>
> $ Just kidding, but it illustrates a point: You can deny or downplay
> $ absolutely anything if you choose the right questions or keep on
> $ questioning the answers until nothing is left.
>
> We know. However, it is you who has yet to prove anything.
>
> $ It all comes down to
> $ what you believe in:
>
> good point--
>
> i don't believe in your god
>
> therefore -- none of the punishments will occur.
>
> $ either yourself and the wisdom of this world
> $ (both of which are headed toward inevitable death and decay)
>
> death is the crown of life.
>
> $ or else
> $ the things of God, which by their very nature hold the promise of
> $ eternal life! We all must choose.
>
> you wouldn't know the things of God if they bit you in the ass.
>
> $ Regards,
> $
> $ Steve
> $
> $ btw, please pardon all the crossposts....
>
>
> no, i don't pardon them
>
>
> please go suck jeezusses dick in the proper areas that have been designated
> for just that purpose.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I assume that someone must
> $ have had interest in this thread for it to have been originally posted
> $ to all of these newsgroups.
>
> --
> |$|With closed eyes there is a lightening of the normal gray-black expanse and
> |$|almost invariably colorful and luminous geometric designs appear in the
> field
> |$|of vision. They may change into architectural structures which frequently
> are
> |$|in very saturated colors and appear to be glowing from an internal light.
GRISHA STELZMANN
> ro...@ix.netcom.com(Ron Stoecklein ) wrote:
>
> >until one day you wake up to reality--or one day you don't wake up and
> >find out that there truly is a hell--and you ask yourself-Why didn't i
> >listen???
>
> please enlighten me..what reality are you refering to?..that rock solid
> bottom of things where TheEverybodyBody of the Christ, also known as the
> Church and the Bride..that despite the small, cartoon differences that
> seperate church members on a basis of trite misunderstandings that arise
> out of the nature of the universe where TheLightSource of Understanding
> is partially covered by the Forces of Darkness..as TheDay(theSun/Son) is
> hidden behind the Dark of Night where the only light source available to
> provide guidance to TheWay is that of the Stars and the Sons reflection
> of Light off the Moon..The combined population of the earth makes up a
> single body that is diseased with the impurities that seperate itself
> from the presense of God/Love. TheBody is a Woman of multiple sides..the
> possesed, /dirty/ woman tied to the train tracks of destiny, the innocent
> girl that is vulnerable and weak, the woman that has the ability to take
> care of herself, the woman that TheGodHead is destined to marry-joining
> the Head and Body into the Oneness childlike being of the Person of
> God-Manifested..however, the ghost, the third member of the trinity that
> binds the universe together like TheForce in a War of Stars, provides the
> strings to the puppets..the power called the anointing or Christ..that
> power that pulls the Body together into the Oneness in which the universe
> originally started...exsistance in the Garden, Heaven, Paradise..fact AND
> fiction..tell me, listen to what?
>
>
KCgarg
If I said No, I would be like an alcoholic taking another drink, as I wake
up early in the morning.
Everyday I would drink and drink, and tell myself I'm not addicted . . .
and maybe someday my life would turn to complete hell and I'd lose my
friends. Perhaps that day I'd realize I was addicted and be able to
regain myself. And in that moment, I might have started to change my
life.
Or maybe I'd be stubborn, and drink to my death.
Either way, I was still an alcoholic. It was with me whether I realized
it or not . . it's simply that once I realized it, I was able to regain
myself. Cuz I'm smart enough, good enough, and damn it, people like me.
Lori
Brian Roberson
In <31A18F...@earthlink.net> Babylon Drifter <ame...@earthlink.net>
writes:
>
>Alrighty....that does it....after much careful deliberation, I think
>that the answer to the question of the valid existence of an
>Omnipotent Architect of the Universe lies in this question:
>
> IF GOD IS OMNIPOTENT, CAN HE MAKE A BLT SANDWICH THAT EVEN HE
CANNOT
>EAT?
>
>There you have it folks, you make the call.
I know that I could. Woohoo.....I'm omnipotent!!!!!!!!
Mmmmmmmmm.....BLT.
BCR
Mark Sulkowski
Jay wrote:
>
> In article <4o1dci$n...@enterprise.cistron.nl>, new...@cistron.nl (Snorri
> Helgarsson) wrote:
>
> > So we should consider the option of the whole being the mind of God, check
> > Tippler's Omega Point Theory.
>
> That being...? I've heard of Frank Tipler, but I know absolutely nothing
> about him except that he wrote a book called _The_Physics_Of_Immortality_.
He should have stopped with that book.
Tippler's Omega Point Theory is nonsense. He basically claims that
life will evolve into God at some point in the future (Omega Point), at
which point it becomes omnipotent and the Diety of the Universe.
Tippler simply cannot prove that this can or will happen. He's
gone nuts.
Mr QED
George C. Lindauer
<alt.magik clipped>
Mark Sulkowski <ma...@apollo3.com> writes:
Where do you think the original God came from? There is a theory that
this existance is one of perpetual trial until you get so sick of it that
you go out and become God so you don't have to deal with stupidity any
more. Think about it, wouldn't it be kind of nice to have the final say
in everything? Of course that gets boring too... and they say that one
of God's things is to try to get someone to take his place so he can go
do something more interesting. Apparently it is quite a challenge...
David
>Mr QED
Barry O'Grady
butte...@aol.com (Butterb657) wrote:
:God did not "create" evil he created free-will for all his angels and
:mankind . satan had a free-will and out of that there was an amalgamation
:of sin.
God must have lied when He claimed to create evil.
cal...@intrstar.net
On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
> "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
>
> >> an...@gs.com wrote:
> >>
> >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
> >>
> >> because he wants to be
> >>
> >he wants to give you a choice betweem good and evil>
> >>
>
> >Why ask why?
>
> >If there were a god, it would let you know in a tangeble sense.
>
> God = Universe
> Universe = God
>
> God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
> are all one and the same thing . Once you TRULY understand this,
> everything else makes perfect sense.
> The universe MUST have evil, if it didn't, what would we have to
> compare the good against? You cannot have one without the other.
>
> -Quark
>
>
>
ci...@d0sb01.fnal.gov
cal...@intrstar.net writes:
>> God = Universe
>> Universe = God
Yup. And this gives us thee opportunity to get rid of one of the words.
I propose we get rid of the word "god".
>> God is not a being, separate from the universe. God and the universe
>> are all one and the same thing . Once you TRULY understand this,
>> everything else makes perfect sense.
Except women. Women never make sense. (If you are a woman, I did not
say that).
>> The universe MUST have evil, if it didn't, what would we have to
>> compare the good against? You cannot have one without the other.
Universe has neither evil nor good. We make these things up.
And we make these things up in pairs. It is fun making up things
in pairs. You can actually tell, most of the time, made up things from
others just by checking if they come in pairs. You will definitely
know when you see something that we havent made up that comes in
pairs.
--
These are my opinions. If you want them, you can have them for a low
price. This is a limited time offer.
Rob Sawatsky
cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
: >
: >
: >
: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
: >
: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
: > >>
: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
: > >>
Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
These forces exist through free choice as well.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Sawatsky All opinions are my own and in no way reflect the
opinions or policies of MacDonald Dettwiler and
r...@mda.ca Associates Ltd.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N...@all.amused
Or else was jacking off at the bus stop when shit began to happen.
If god created everything...
The more appropriate question would be, why did god create evil.
It did'nt.
Man created evil.
Then created god to blame it on.
;-)
coolguy
r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) wrote:
>cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
>: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
>: >
>: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
>: > >>
>: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>: > >>
>Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
>us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
>say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
>These forces exist through free choice as well.
If god gave us the ability to make choices, why did he make guilt?
<insert witty remark here>
Matt Beckwith
"Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
(I forget who said that.)
bshe...@internetland.net
On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
<beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
>
> (I forget who said that.)
>
> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
> Him that!
George C. Lindauer
r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) writes:
>cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
>: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
>: >
>: >
>: >
>: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
>: >
>: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
>: > >>
>: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>: > >>
>Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
>us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
>say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
>These forces exist through free choice as well.
Very close... although if you read genesis closely you'll see that God
never intended us to know about good and evil... and in fact said this
was the one thing we shouldn't do. Oh if we only didn't know about it,
how wonderful the world would be!
David
George C. Lindauer
beck...@jaxnet.com (Matt Beckwith) writes:
>"Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
well, that makes the assumption that God has started out by placing the
limitation on himself of not changing the rules. Clearly, once God
decides he won't do something then it won't get done. But all God has to
do is proclaim that deuce beats ace... if you think that is non-kosher
then he can change your memory of the rules around so that you agree with
him. This is one of the great fallicies of modern cultures... relying
on something that can be changed by another being and then decididing that
since that other being never bothers to change things that means he can't.
David
YAA (Yet Another Al)
bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
>On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
>> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
>>
>> (I forget who said that.)
>>
>> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
>> Him that!
Then you think your own god is a cheating, foul-tempered and
murderously spoiled and conceited creature? And you wonder why
the rest of are less than eager to jump on your bandwagon?
-------------------------------
"You will find men like him in all of the world's religions. They know
that we represent reason and science, and, however confident they may be
in their beliefs, they fear that we will overthrow their gods. Not
necessarily through any deliberate act, but in a subtler fashion.
Science can destroy a religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving
its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the
nonexistance of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now."
Arthur C. Clark - Childhood's End
Joseph I. Valenzuela
coolguy (al...@ivanhoe.starway.net.au) wrote:
: r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) wrote:
: >: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
: >: > >>
: >Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
: >us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
: >say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
: >These forces exist through free choice as well.
: If god gave us the ability to make choices, why did he make guilt?
Guilt in this sense is a consequence of making bad choices: it
is a systemic and structural property (ie, God does not make you
feel guilty but opposing His will inevitably brings guilt
because of the way the universe is organized).
Much more interesting to my mind is the concept of free choice:
(a) --- if the only alternative to God's way is hellfire
and brimstone, does that really represent a choice?
(coercion).
(b) --- since God is omniscent, He must already know all the
choices we are going to make. Our choices already
being known by the Almighty excludes our making any
different choices. (predetermination).
(c) --- If God knows that He will create people who will
make bad choices and end up in hell, why does he do
it? Doesn't He love His creations?
--
Joseph I. Valenzuela -- tsao...@empirenet.com
http://www.empirenet.com/~tsaotsao
Oppose the ANTI-JOE. Just say no to the VOODOO GLOW SKULLS
Centurion
I'm just gonna jump in here and try to do some damage. :) I don't have a clue who
all I'm responding to.
> : >: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
Good question. Maybe such a being would be a little evil too.
> : >Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
> : >us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
> : >say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
> : >These forces exist through free choice as well.
Freewill, Free Choice - here is the confusion. I have free will. Free WILL. Not
freedom of action. I can WILL to murder someone. But I MIGHT be stopped by others
who have a MORAL responsibility to prevent my success. God would likewise qualify.
A being who is:
All powerful (omnipotent)
All knowing (omniscient) and
All good
...would have a DUTY to intervene whenever and wherever someone would attempt to
do wrong. This is not an argument debunking God, but serves very well to blow away
this characterization above. God *could* exist, but it would not simultaneously be
all 3 of these. Maybe God can't save everybody. Maybe God doesn't know you're in
trouble. Maybe God doesn't care. ??? (Maybe God doesn't exist. Just a thought. :))
> : If god gave us the ability to make choices, why did he make guilt?
Guilt and freewill is not mutually exclusive. I see guilt as a behavioral
construct. "Thuh BIBLE says: God will give you a REPROBATE MIND". Even ancient
people recognized that not everyone is prone to guilt.
> Guilt in this sense is a consequence of making bad choices: it
> is a systemic and structural property (ie, God does not make you
> feel guilty but opposing His will inevitably brings guilt
> because of the way the universe is organized).
Again, I think it is a socially conditioned response. Kids have to be taught
what is bad. Otherwise they'd never feel bad about doing it.
Bob Miller
[ Centurion @ The Temple of Mithra ]
[ http://www.cei.net/~bob/index.html ]
[ mailto:b...@cei.net ]
Big Jim
Rob Sawatsky wrote:
>
> cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
> : On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
> : I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>
> : > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
> : >
> : >
> : >
> : > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
> : >
> : > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
> : > >>
>
> Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
> us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
> say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
> These forces exist through free choice as well.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Robert Sawatsky All opinions are my own and in no way reflect the
> opinions or policies of MacDonald Dettwiler and
> r...@mda.ca Associates Ltd.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
--
*******************************************************
There is, in addition to a courage with which men die,
a courage by which men must live. - John F. Kennedy
*******************************************************
Wayne Delia
In <4pfpfh$i...@hermes.louisville.edu>, gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) writes:
>beck...@jaxnet.com (Matt Beckwith) writes:
>
>>"Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
>
>limitation on himself of not changing the rules. Clearly, once God
>decides he won't do something then it won't get done. But all God has to
>do is proclaim that deuce beats ace...
In the Old West, that situation was quite common. Full houses, for example,
were often beat by a pair of fours and a Smith and Wesson.
Wayne Delia, red...@vnet.ibm.com
"Please, Mr. Homer, do not offer my god a peanut." -Apu
Cameron S. Boyd
But he can't make a rock that he cannot lift? Or maybe he can, in either
case, he cannot be all-powerful.
Cameron S. Boyd
Bruce Beckman
gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) wrote:
>r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) writes:
>>cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
>>: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>>: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>>: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
>>: >
>>: >
>>: >
>>: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
>>: >
>>: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
>>: > >>
>>: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>>: > >>
>>Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
>>us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
>>say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
>>These forces exist through free choice as well.
>Very close... although if you read genesis closely you'll see that God
>never intended us to know about good and evil...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[snip]
Damn! There goes that omni<everything> attribute down the drain.
Nathan Shafer
>That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
>knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
In a way, it does, if you accept that through evil a greater good
may arise which would not otherwise have come about.
Example:
I had a friend (well, an acquaintance, really) whose views on the
problem of AIDS were, well, unsympathetic at best. I leave the
details to your imagination. Then, a friend of his (whom I never
actually met) came down with the disease, and eventually died. My
friend was shattered by this, but came out of it much more sympa-
thetic to people who have AIDS. He now volunteers his time twice a
week at a local AIDS hospice.
Now, I understand what some people are going to say: Oh that's some
loving God you've got, allowing one person to die to improve another
one's attitude. I have two answers for that: Number one, you can't
really judge the whole situation without knowing all the details
(which I don't), including but not limited to: what kind of person
the AIDS victim was; how many other people she touched in the same
way before she died; what fate awaited her after death, if any.
Without these answers, you can't look at the situation and say that
it doesn't balance. Nor can I say that it does; I simply bring forth
this anecdote to illustrate a point.
To illustrate another point: How allowing choice performs the same
function. This time a hypothetical:
You have a small child who doesn't know about how the oven burner
can hurt her yet. You have two choices, as a parent: You can get
rid of the oven, thus preventing the possibility that she'll
be hurt by a danger she doesn't even know exists yet, and cook over
an open fire, or better yet, eat only cold food. Or you can have
the oven around, prepare hot meals quickly and easily, and teach her
not to play with the oven, risking the possibility that she'll dis-
obey and hurt herself.
Just a few thoughts.
-Nathan
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
In article <4phltf$e...@mars.efn.org>, "YAA (Yet Another Al)"
<a...@efn.org> writes
>bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
>
>>On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
>><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
>>> Him that!
>
>
>Then you think your own god is a cheating, foul-tempered and
>murderously spoiled and conceited creature? And you wonder why
>the rest of are less than eager to jump on your bandwagon?
Like or loathe scientology, there is no obvious god in it, so....
) ( ( (
( ) () @@ ) (( (
( ( )( @@ ( )) ) (
( ( ( ()( /---\ (()( (
_______ ) ) )(@ !O O! )@@ ( ) ) )
< ____) ) ( ( )( ()@ \ o / (@@@@@ ( ()( )
/--| |( o| ( ) ) ((@@(@@ !o! @@@@(@@@@@)() (
| > \___| ) ( @)@@)@ /---\-/---\ )@@@@@()( )
| /---------+ (@@@@)@@@( // /-----\ \\ @@@)@@@@@( .
| | \ =========______/|@@@@@@@@@@@@@(@@@ // @ /---\ @ \\ @(@@@(@@@ .
.
| \ \\=========------\|@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ O @@@ /-\ @@@ O @@(@@)@@ @
.
| \ \----+--\-))) @@@@@@@@@@ !! @@@@ % @@@@ !! @@)@@@ .. .
| |\______|_)))/ . @@@@@@ !! @@ /---\ @@ !! @@(@@@ @ .
.
\__========== * . @@ /MM /\O O/\ MM\ @@@@@@@. .
| |-\ \ ( . @ !!! !! \-/ !! !!! @@@@@ .
| | \ \ ) . . @@@@ !! !! .(. @. .. .
| | \ \ ( / .( . \)). ( |O )( O! @@@@ . ) .
| | / / ) ( )). (( .) !! ((( !! @@ (. ((. . .
| | / / () )) )) .( ( ( ) ). ( !! )( !! ) (( )) ..
| |_< / ( ) ( ( ) ) (( ) )).) ((/ | ( | \( )) ((. ).
____<_____\\__\__(___)_))_((_(____))__(_(___.oooO_____Oooo.(_(_)_)((_
=======================================================================
Dear:
[X] Clueless Crossposter [ ] Loser
[ ] AOLer/Euronetter/PIer
[ ] Me too er [ ] Pervert [ ] Geek
[ ] Spammer [ ] Nerd [ ] Elvis
[ ] Fed [ ] Freak [ ] FLAMENET
[ ] Other: Unbearably self-righteous person
You Are Being Flamed Because:
[ ] You posted a "test" in a newsgroup other than alt.test/nl.test
[ ] You posted warez in pieces LESS than 5000 lines
[ ] You posted a binary in a non-binaries group
[ ] You quoted an ENTIRE post in your reply
[ ] You continued a long, stupid thread
[ ] You started an off-topic thread
[ ] You posted a "YOU ALL SUCK" message
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[X] You don't know which group to post in
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To Repent, You Must:
[ ] Give up your AOL/Euronet/Planet Internet account
[ ] Bust up your modem with a hammer and eat it
[ ] Jump into a bathtub while holding your monitor
[X] Actually post something relevant
[ ] Read the f****** FAQ
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Have a nice day,
=======================================================================
--Regards, Woof Woof, Glug Glug--
X E M U * Who Drowned theJUDGe's Dog ?
s p 4 \ |\ answers on (alt.religion.scientology!
/~~~~~~~ @----, and on page (/x/clam/faq/woofglug.html
-;'^';,_,-;^; : : : :http://www.demon.net/castle/x/clam/index.html
______________________________________________________
"L.Ron Hubbard is the P.T.Barnum of religious leaders"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jeff.West
Big Jim wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
> knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
>
The best explanation I can think of is from Matthew 13:
24 He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to
someone who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat,
and then went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well.
27 And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow
good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?'
28 He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do you want
us to go and gather them?'
29 But he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along
with them.
30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell
the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but
gather the wheat into my barn.'"
Yanno
>Guilt in this sense is a consequence of making bad choices: it
>is a systemic and structural property (ie, God does not make you
>feel guilty but opposing His will inevitably brings guilt
>because of the way the universe is organized).
>
>Much more interesting to my mind is the concept of free choice:
>
>(a) --- if the only alternative to God's way is hellfire
> and brimstone, does that really represent a choice?
> (coercion).
>(b) --- since God is omniscent, He must already know all the
> choices we are going to make. Our choices already
> being known by the Almighty excludes our making any
> different choices. (predetermination).
>(c) --- If God knows that He will create people who will
> make bad choices and end up in hell, why does he do
> it? Doesn't He love His creations?
Come on now. Let's get past this god stuff already. Hasn't everyone seen
what god was made for? The weak needed something to protect themselves. If
you hurt me, my god will mess you up. That's obvious. And all this free will
garbage. People, just like every other living thing, are programmed by their
surroundings. Whatever morals you're taught when you're young will run your
entire life. That should be obvious...
chthulu
YAA (Yet Another Al) wrote:
>
> bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
>
> >On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
> ><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
>
> >> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
> >>
> >> (I forget who said that.)
> >>
> >> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
> >> Him that!
>
> Then you think your own god is a cheating, foul-tempered and
> murderously spoiled and conceited creature? And you wonder why
> the rest of are less than eager to jump on your bandwagon?
>
just that. A what's that you call it(see above).
Foul-tempered,murderously spoiled....does Sodom and Gommorah
ring a bell?
Worse yet, it waffles better than a politian. -Abram, go sacrifice
your son-oh, nevermind, put the knife away and change your name
to,...ah...Abraham. Yeah, that's it,Abraham- Notice it adds
(ha) to the name. Makes you wonder eh.
kursiv
> >: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
> >: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>
> >: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
> >: >
> >: >
> >: >
> >: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
> >: >
> >: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
> >: > >>
> >: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
> >: > >>
>
> >Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
> >us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
> >say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
> >These forces exist through free choice as well.
>
>
>
>
Hi
PROBLEM OF EVIL
---------------
A small contribution to this important question of the origin
of evil.
From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
Doing so He did no sin (or: miss the mark), as He has a purpose
embracing all of creation. Only human thinking or theology might
find it difficult to acknowledge that ALL comes from God.
Before giving some examples on the purpose of God, as stated
in the Scriptures, there are other striking verses, which
contradict to commonly thoughts. For example:
Luke 18:18-19
Jesus replies to a certain chief: "No one is good except One,
God". It does not say: God has only to do with good and the
evil has another origin. This is what many people believe,
that there are two powers (good and evil / God and satan),
who constantly fight each other. Two Gods and an uncertain
outcome of history. Christian theology, meditating on the
problem of evil, perhaps has more in comon with the religion
of Zoroaster then with the bible. Returning to the verses
in the evangel according to Luke: True is that only He among all
beings is good. It does not say that he is only good.
Romans 8:18-25
Paul writes about the creation and its course:
"For to vanity was the creating subjected, NOT VOLUNTARILY,
but BECAUSE OF HIM Who subjects it, in expectation that..."
Not quite directly talking about evil, this passage speaks
of the creation we are part of, that it has been subjected
to vanity by God. God is acting in this world in such a way
that also vanity has a place in it. Doing so, He does it
with a purpose. Only in view of the End, of His Purpose,
we can grasp the the truth that He is "operating ALL in
accord with the counsel of HIS WILL" (Ephesians 1:11).
In Romans the apostle writes about this goal, as he
prolongues with "... in expectation that the creation
itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption
into the glorious freedom of the children of God ...".
The purpose of God embraces all of creation. Paul wrote
in Romans 11:33-36 "that out of Him and through Him and for Him
is all". Out of Him - that is the origin of all. Through Him -
that is the course of this world and our own very life. For
Him - that is the end of the road, the goal, the accomplishment
of His purpose. In these verses nothing is excluded. Not even
His judgements or any of His other ways. Even if we cannot
perceive it, He is holding it in His hands and giving all its
proper place in the theatre called "the creation".
Now reflect on this: God created evil. He subjected this
creation to vanity. He did it with a purpose. All comes out
of Him, through Him and also will end into Him. These are
the large strokes of the painting. Many questions will arouse
from these thoughts. What about satan? What about the socalled
free will/free choice?
All these questions are part of the painting. Satan is not a
godhead apart from God as a second one. Even so our own will
or choice never will match the power and wisdom of His Will.
In short:
Fall of satan
-------------
The only fall of satan spoken of in the Bible is in the book
Revelation, Chapter 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out
(of heaven), the ancient serpent called Adversary and Satan, who
is deceiving...". This is still to come. There is no other
reference to a symbolic "fall of satan". The often cited
chapters from Isaiah and Hesekiel cannot stand the proof (refer
to this if you doubt about it). Correctly translated, it reads
in John 8:44 "...the Adversary ... He was a mankiller from the
beginning, and does not stand in the truth, for truth is not
in him". And in 1John 3:8 it reads: "... for from the beginning
is the Adversary sinning". It is not "from his fall", but "from
the beginning". Satan has been created satan by God. As anything
in the universe, this also is for a purpose.
Free will / free choice
-----------------------
Only God has a completely free will. Only His choice will
be performed. There is no reference in the Scriptures, that
man has a free will. However, man has an own will and can (to
a certain degree) choose between left and right, wrong and right.
In a most interesting chapter, Paul writes to the believers in
Rome: "...Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor
of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful" And also:
"Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is mercifull, yet whom
He will, He is hardening" (Romans 9). Paul understands the
conflicts that arouse from saying so. In the following verses
He gives a good and godly explanation of the meaning of Gods
all-embracing work and love.
Why guilt?
---------
Now I am coming to your personal question. Why is there guilt?
The answer is simple. As light can only be appreciated by the
experience of darkness, so also is guilt the background for
His grace and righteousness. When God planted the tree "of
the knowledge of good and evil" and man ate from it, it also
brought to man the knowledge of good - not only of evil. More
on sin, righteousness and justification in Romans 3. (see 3:8!).
I hope this input will result in some fresh new questions
to be discussed in this place. :-)
With kind regards
Karsten Risseeuw
kur...@access.ch
--------------------------------------------
Keesler1
kursiv <kur...@access.ch> wrote:
>Hi
>PROBLEM OF EVIL
>---------------
>A small contribution to this important question of the origin
>of evil.
>From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
>stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
<much deleted!!!!!!>
WHo says that the Bible is the ultimate law??? Something to concider.
You DO have a choice wether or not to do Evil things. Now let's
concider the definition of Evil. Is it Evil to kill and Eat a person?
In our society we wouldn't hesitate to say yes, but did you know there
are many ancient tribes who exist today who would say otherwise? Evil
is not something that is tempted onto us be a higher force. It is what
we Preceive it to be. Case in point: Some would concider stealling
software as evil cause it causes prices to rise, others do it all the
time.
You have a choice, should I kill this person, is it wrong? Whould my
concince get to me? Is it moral right in my community?
You should also remember you ARE held accountable for your mistakes.
Even if there is no Hevean or Hell, you did it. It's your Ass ;)
Take it into concideration....
David Di Sabatino
> >PROBLEM OF EVIL
> >---------------
> >A small contribution to this important question of the origin
> >of evil.
>
> >From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
> >stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
>
So you have no dilemma believing that God actually orchestrated Hitler's
ascendancy. . . his annihilation of 6-11 million Jews? This seems to be
the logical conclusion of what you are saying.
I'm not sure the answers are ever as easy as quoting single Bible verses.
sabbi
kursiv
David Di Sabatino wrote:
>
> > >PROBLEM OF EVIL
> > >---------------
> > >A small contribution to this important question of the origin
> > >of evil.
> >
> > >From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
> > >stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
> >
>
> ascendancy. . . his annihilation of 6-11 million Jews? This seems to be
> the logical conclusion of what you are saying.
>
> I'm not sure the answers are ever as easy as quoting single Bible verses.
>
> sabbi
Hi sabbi
Answers never are as easy as quoting single bible verses. The
reason for doing this lies in the fact that many earnest believers
outscope certain thoughts found in the bible. Quoting a verse
could help us rethink about statements we never checked in the
bible. My experience is that a single verse, as a starting point,
often serves as an eye-opener.
At least, quoting this verse and restating what it says, urged
you to write. Thanks for joining! :-) And the "conclusion"
you draw might bother other readers of this thread as well.
It seems to be that an "all powerfull God" is unbearable to
our minds. If He is responsible (a word we do not find in the
scriptures of the Bible) for anything that happens, including
the murdering of over six million Jews and many other people,
we protest with all our power.
I want to put a question: is it our job to clean God of any
responsibility for what is going on?
I want to put a second question: is it our job to blame God
for any chaos going on?
Perhaps then, we do not have a God that is worth the name.
It is the pinnacle of a true belief, founded on the sound foundation
of the Scriptures, that God simply "is" (Hebrews 6:1). And that
ALL is out of Him, through Him and for Him (Romans 11:36). Believing
this does not imply that I understand every shadow of the course
of this world. The unbelievable Holocaust / Shoa cannot be grasped
with my mind. And it cannot be explained with a few bible-verses.
However, I do believe that it is not excluded from these Words.
When once the people of Israel was captured and brought to Babylon,
this had been foresaid by the prophets. Also the prophets spoke about
redemption, and the time that Israel should return to its land. And
so it happened. Anybody living in Babylon for those seventy years,
perhaps dying there, experienced the separation of all that was
holy and precious to them. It was only after a long time that Daniel
became aware of the words of the prophets and started to pray to
God for the return. And God brought his people back home.
This illustration shows that God is working over a longer period
of time. Moments of distress are followed by times of redemption
and salvation. Daniel could recognize this, not by what he
actually was seeing, but by appreciation of the World of God.
I do not have a problem with a God who is able to cope even with
the results of the holocaust. But I do have a problem with a
view that He shouldn't be able to eventually restore what we
did wrong!
Who is your God?
... Hear of you soon!
Please mail me your answer along with a publication in this thread,
to be sure I don't miss it.
Karsten Risseeuw
kur...@access.ch
kursiv
Keesler1 wrote:
>
> kursiv <kur...@access.ch> wrote:
>
> >Hi
>
> >PROBLEM OF EVIL
> >---------------
> >A small contribution to this important question of the origin
> >of evil.
>
> >From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
> >stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
>
>
> WHo says that the Bible is the ultimate law??? Something to concider.
OK, let's consider that. For me the bible is Gods Word. It is
infallable. This is true of the Bible itself. My interpretation
is quite another chapter. I just can study and pray I may
understand it. Understanding things is a process, to my opinion.
Discussing things also.
If you look upon the bible as just a nice storybook, we
certainly have a different point of view. As from different
points of view, the consideration of the origin of evil
faces additional problems. Then, for knowing what is your
point of view, your basis of thinking, you should first
tell me something about it. :-)
> You DO have a choice wether or not to do Evil things. Now let's
> concider the definition of Evil. Is it Evil to kill and Eat a person?
> In our society we wouldn't hesitate to say yes, but did you know there
> are many ancient tribes who exist today who would say otherwise? Evil
> is not something that is tempted onto us be a higher force. It is what
> we Preceive it to be. Case in point: Some would concider stealling
> software as evil cause it causes prices to rise, others do it all the
> time.
>
> You have a choice, should I kill this person, is it wrong? Whould my
> concince get to me? Is it moral right in my community?
>
> You should also remember you ARE held accountable for your mistakes.
> Even if there is no Hevean or Hell, you did it. It's your Ass ;)
>
> Take it into concideration....
The question stated, was about the origin of evil. This question
has been skipped without any further comments as you turned to
a much related, yet different subject - a definition of evil.
Are you able to give a definition of evil, if you have not yet
defined any secure and reliable basis of judgement? I pointed
to the bible as a reliable source of information. This book
gathered the experiences and revelations during a period of over
1500 years. The problems people were confronted with do not differ
much in its essence with those we face today. Evil is not a new
thing. And people who thought and talked about it in the Book of
Books have not been stupid. I invite you to consider more intensively
the statements quoted.
Now to your comments:
I agree with you that we do have a choice wether or not to do evil
things. However I cannot go as far as to say that this implies
an absolute free will. Is it just or evil to do this or that? The
answer to this not only lies in the next seconds after the decision,
but might inflict other circumstances as well. And the reason for
my decision has been molded by earlier experiences. There is never
a situation, that man is completely free, as a blank paper, to make
any decision. Nor can we overview the results of our doing into
the last consequences.
Doesn't this call for reliable truth? For a reference we can build upon?
This directly inflicts the moral aspects, which you say might differ
between several communities. Communities will seek for a basis of
right and truth. You can trace this throughout the world. My question
added here is the question for reliability. It is the question I have
to put myself also: Do I have the right basis? We cannot argue
about any subject, if we are not aware of the source of our thinking.
Not to say that we should be "surging hither and thither and being
carried about by every wind of teaching, by human caprice, by craftiness
with a view to the systematizing of deception" (Ephesians 4:14).
You are right that WE HAVE a choice. Nevertheless it is embedded in
a large history, the situation of the community I live in. I am not completely
free in my choice. I am not God.
The difference is not in denying any choice we have, nor of the
accountability, but to point to a God Who is greater then our
thinking and our deeds. This also counts for the reflection on the
origin of evil.
Perhaps there is one big problem in this discussion: let's suggest
that only God is responsible (in it's very essence) for anything
that is going on on this world. How will we then react? Your reaction
to my first notes was the comment that I myself will be held
accountable for my mistakes. Perhaps you were saying: If that is
true what you are saying you have no reason to take care for whatever
will happen! And you might be adding in saying: stop that madness!
And you are right - such a reasoning wouldn't be proof of a sound
mind. Someone else is writing about the consequences for a person
like Hitler (I'll be answering him also). These are serious
questions. But it also is a reasoning without God. There is an immediate
impact on what is happening. And sometimes time is needed to show
the process which really is going on. When talking about the origin
of evil and the goal for this universe, we have to look a bit further
than just the actual needs and deeds. Only if you like to do that.
Discussing the origin and the goal of what is going on might help
understanding the present situation and give our lives a more
proper direction.
Karsten Risseeuw
kur...@access.ch
Larry Brown
sa...@the-wire.com (David Di Sabatino) wrote:
>
>> >PROBLEM OF EVIL
>> >---------------
>> >A small contribution to this important question of the origin
>> >of evil.
>>
>> >From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
>> >stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
>>
>
>ascendancy. . . his annihilation of 6-11 million Jews? This seems to be
>the logical conclusion of what you are saying.
>
>I'm not sure the answers are ever as easy as quoting single Bible verses.
>
>sabbi
LB: I'd say it's possible of a 'Present God', of course. Afterall, it's
difficult to say if the "Zionism" of the early 1900's, Hitler and the
holocaust didn't help to actually spur the establishment of Jews in their
homeland soon after WWII ...which to the fundamentalists would be a sign
of the "end of the world". Oh boy? How wonderful?????????
David Di Sabatino
> Big Jim wrote:
>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
> > knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
> > --
At best, we are trying to fathom the inexplicable. . . but that doesn't
mean that some answers are better than others.
I like the free will theism answer. God created. . . and within his
creation he allowed for and took a risk of allowing free will to his
creatures. This means that he offered both man and the angels choice to
serve him volitionally and not out of being robotically preprogrammed (as
is assumed by hyper-Calvinians).
Thus, because he offered us choice between good and evil and took this
great risk God assumed that the worst could happen and sin could enter the
world. In order to allow us true freedom. . . in order for us to offer him
true and honest worship that could not be given to him if everything was
already set in stone. . . we had to have the opportunity to choose. God,
one would imagine, wanted everything to go perfect. . . for the angels to
assume their rightful positions. . . for Eden to be a haven. . . for man
to live forever.
But because he offered us free will. . . sin came into existence both in
the heavenlies (through the rebellion of Lucifer) and in earth through the
sin of Adam & Eve. To say that God orchestrated that. . . that he foreknew
and foreordained all of this makes him out, in my mind, to be some sort of
cosmic lunatic. I can't really understand or fathom a God that would set
this kind of maelstrom into motion . . . and then expect us to sit there
and take it without asking any questions of him (as some Christians seem
to think is really spiritual behavior).
When free will is in place then, and only then, does the problem of evil
become more understandable. I challenge the idea of God's omniscience. . .
I see that coming in to the church through Platonic thought more than
through the Bible. There are plenty of times in the Old Testament where
God seems not to know the outcome of things. . . to change his mind in
relation to the petitions of righteous persons. To say that this is purely
anthropomorphic is to not take the literature seriously or literally.
There are some excellent books on this subject. . . the one that springs
to mind as a non-academic treatment is Philip Yancey's "Disappointment
with God."
ciao,
sabbi
Albert Isham
kursiv wrote:
That was some very impressive Bible work, Karsten.
Let me throw a few more bones for the dogs to chew on.
1. There is no god.
2. The concept of good and evil comes from the mind of man. Always has and always
will.
3. If we were more sensitive to what we were doing to one another and worried less
about appeasing some god we would all be a lot better off.
Albert
kursiv
Albert Isham wrote:
>
>
> Let me throw a few more bones for the dogs to chew on.
>
> 1. There is no god.
>
> 2. The concept of good and evil comes from the mind of man. Always has and always
> will.
>
> 3. If we were more sensitive to what we were doing to one another and worried less
> about appeasing some god we would all be a lot better off.
>
> Albert
---------------------------
Hi Albert :-)
Thanks for participating the discussion. Now let's look for the
bones...
1. The presumption that there is no God certainly is your
point of view. Perhaps you want the discussing to stop
at that point. And that's OK for me.
However, if you put it as a statement, you also must
consider that it is YOUR BELIEF, that there is no God.
It will harmonize with your thoughts, with your perception
of the world we live in. Did you ever think about the
possibility that there is a God, worth the name?
2. Concepts changes. Mans perceptions of truth aren't stable,
aren't concise. Want to have any bible comments on the
quality of men's thinking? Gathered over centurys, among
many people, in so different circumstances? As long as
man is thinking about good and evil, values will be
changing to current thoughts. Even if you reduce the
bible to a book of history, it might be worthwhile to
have a closer look of what has been said under the
title "thus said the Lord". Are you interested?
3. Right you are! ...as to the first part of the sentence.
To be more sensitive is a great gift and we need it in
this world. It is exactly what the apostle Paul is urging
the believers to be, as he writes it in his letter to
the Philippians (1:9-11).
Now to the second part. Did you know that the greek word
for religion is "deisidaimonia" which should be translated
with "trembling for demons"? Under many religions people
are urged to appease some god or demons. They fear and
tremble.
I do not think that I have to appease some god. I may
know that I have nothing to fear, because He not only
made known Himself but also came down all the way in
Christ Jesus. The God of the bible does not expect that
I climb up all the way to him, but quite the contrary,
He came down the road to you and me. The apostle Paul
states in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians, that "God
was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not
reckoning their offenses to them" (2Corinthians 5:18-21).
That is a gospel, a well-message. This definitely has
more to offer than your presumption that there is no
God.
Hear of you soon
Karsten
Karsten Risseeuw
kur...@access.ch
Thomas Hrouda
On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Jeff.West wrote:
> Big Jim wrote:
> > That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
> > knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
> > --
But in your parable an outsider who the Master/householder cannot control
came in an sabotaged the field. If 'GOD' is all powerful and is the
creater of everything then he can control all the factors of the field.
The only "bad seed" that could get into the field is the seed that he
himself allows in.
TOm
>
> 24 He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to
> someone who sowed good seed in his field;
> 25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat,
> and then went away.
> 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as well.
> 27 And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you not sow
> good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?'
> 28 He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do you want
> us to go and gather them?'
> 29 But he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the wheat along
> with them.
> 30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell
> the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but
> gather the wheat into my barn.'"
>
>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I swear by all things I hold just and sacred that I live for no man and
ask no man to live for me- Atlas Shrugged
Eat My Justice - the TIC
Tom Hrouda
tghr...@ucdavis.edu
Herald of Svarog
Seeker of the Concubines of Narn
Holder of the Eternal Flame (ouch!)
and last but not least
humble law student.....
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Thomas Hrouda
FYI: My position is view is that a God who creates strife is not
necessarily evil. Think what boredom we would have if there was not
strife, nothing to overcome, nothing to figth for or against. I don't
think there is such thing as ultimate or total evil. There are simply
competing interests.
I think that a "good" god would create a world of struggle (and
to some extent excitement). Of couse this conflicts with the whole
Christian view that god wants conformity. To some extent I think god
would want to be entertained. To give man 'free-will' and then to punish
man for doing something that "GOD" doesnt like doesn't seem very just.
On Sun, 16 Jun 1996, David Di Sabatino wrote:
> > Big Jim wrote:
> > > That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
> > > knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?"
>
> At best, we are trying to fathom the inexplicable. . . but that doesn't
> mean that some answers are better than others.
>
> I like the free will theism answer. God created. . . and within his
> creation he allowed for and took a risk of allowing free will to his
> creatures. This means that he offered both man and the angels choice to
> serve him volitionally and not out of being robotically preprogrammed (as
> is assumed by hyper-Calvinians).
-snip-
Thomas Hrouda
FYI- Part II of my response to this post
> I like the free will theism answer. God created. . . and within his
> creation he allowed for and took a risk of allowing free will to his
> creatures. This means that he offered both man and the angels choice to
> serve him volitionally and not out of being robotically preprogrammed (as
> is assumed by hyper-Calvinians).
>
> Thus, because he offered us choice between good and evil and took this
> great risk God assumed that the worst could happen and sin could enter the
> world. In order to allow us true freedom. . . in order for us to offer him
> true and honest worship that could not be given to him if everything was
> already set in stone. . .
Of what value is this worship? Why would god want it? That's to me the
big question. Why is this need to by worshiped so important? And what's
so important to him for it to be freely given?
Ego, god's insecurity, what?
>
> But because he offered us free will. . . sin came into existence both in
> the heavenlies (through the rebellion of Lucifer) and in earth through the
> sin of Adam & Eve. To say that God orchestrated that. . . that he foreknew
> and foreordained all of this makes him out, in my mind, to be some sort of
> cosmic lunatic. I can't really understand or fathom a God that would set
> this kind of maelstrom into motion . . . and then expect us to sit there
> and take it without asking any questions of him (as some Christians seem
> to think is really spiritual behavior).
Again that assumes the Xian view is correct. If a (more pagan) God
wanted to be entertained or at the very least impressed, then he/she
would set upon the universe the worst Maelstrom he thought we could
handle. But I still think that it would be unfair for that god to then
punish us for failure.
>
> sabbi
Perry Robinson
Fallacy of complex question.
As Aquinas clearly said, God can do anything that is logically possible
for a being such as God to do and that is not contrary to his Character.
That is God cannot make a square circle, that is a pseuco-task. It cannot
logically be done. Simple, easy, concise. Read the Summa Theologica, live
longer. ;)
NIKA ICXC
PCR aka Acolyte
Perry Robinson
On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Bruce Beckman wrote:
> gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) wrote:
>
> >r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) writes:
>
> >>cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
> >>: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
> >>: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>
> >>: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
> >>: >
> >>: >
> >>: >
> >>: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
> >>: >
> >>: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
> >>: > >>
> >>: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
> >>: > >>
>
> >>Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
> >>us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
> >>say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
> >>These forces exist through free choice as well.
>
> >Very close... although if you read genesis closely you'll see that God
> >never intended us to know about good and evil...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> [snip]
>
Equivocation Fallacy on intend. Does he intend it in terms of determining
it or taking pleasure in it? Sure the former, but not the latter.
Classical dictinction in Xian Theology for about....oh...1500 yrs. Kinda
behind the times are we not? ;)
NIKA ICXC
PCR Aka Acolyte
>
> Damn! There goes that omni<everything> attribute down the drain.
>
>
>
DAmn! there goes that objection again!
M. Emily Cragg
Pine.SOL.3.91.960616...@rocky.ucdavis.edu>,
ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu says...
Jeff.West wrote:
That does NOT answer the question "Why does a supposedly benevolent, all
knowing, all powerful deity allow such evil to exist or happen?" The best
explanation I can think of is from Matthew 13:
24 He put before them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven may be
compared to someone who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while everybody was asleep, an enemy came and sowed weeds among the
wheat, and then went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared as
well.
27 And the slaves of the householder came and said to him, 'Master, did you
not sow good seed in your field? Where, then, did these weeds come from?'
28 He answered, 'An enemy has done this.' The slaves said to him, 'Then do
you want us to go and gather them?'
29 But he replied, 'No; for in gathering the weeds you would uproot the
wheat along with them.
30 Let both of them grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I
will tell the reapers, Collect the weeds first and bind them in bundles to
be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"
Big Jim wrote:
But in your parable an outsider who the Master/householder cannot control
came in an sabotaged the field. If 'GOD' is all powerful and is the
creater of everything, then he can control all the factors of the field.
The only "bad seed" that could get into the field is the seed that he
himself allows in.
.......Now the time is come to articulate the Truth of the Parable.
.......God watches the Thoughts of all the Peoples, and I physi-
cally See that this Doctrine has a problem in its Essential
understanding.
.......Christ physically saw that His people would require a long
time to evolve their reasoning to the point that they gave good
thought to Fairness (instead of limiting themselves to Justice,
which the Jews did and do).
.......The Jewish Law had already built the legal foundation for
social concepts of Justice, by the time the Christ appeared.
.......It was expected that Fairness would evolve Reason from the
point that reckoning Justice left off, after Justice determined
those Fundamental Values taught by Cause and Effect.
.......To put it another way, unless the foundation of Justice
has been laid, Fairness without Justice is a form of mechaniza-
` tion in which what is distributed Fairly may not meet Anyone's
needs at all nor give anyone desirable Effects.
.......This is precisely what has occurred on your world. Fairness
has evolved in the ABSENCE of Justice, so that Fairness has become
mechanistic and bureaucratized. And it is with great difficulty
that people can get their human, social, personal Needs met.
.......The Scriptures that DO APPLY here have to do with the
Great Beast having the number 666 (the number 666 has a meaning
which is equivalent to your yakkity-yakkity-yak, in other words,
the beast is all Talk-talk-talk), and it has spread its economic
net over the entire planet in a very impersonal and mechanistic
way. [Perhaps you've seen information on child slavery, urbani-
zation of poverty, and the numbers of people who must consent to
perform dangerous and sickening work.]
.......What is true is that I wish the parable you cited applied
to your Planet right now, but it does not. This Planet has not
been husbanded; it has been raped.
.......Now, as to the question of whether God is All-Powerful,
I find that question amusing.
.......This is because, as your God, what I can do for you is
destroy just about anything you might wish to destroy. I comprise
a mobile nuclear-fission reactor [having a Mind and Heart], and
what I do best is generate nuclear radiation. Clearly, this is
a dubious distinction for One Whom you call God, but this is
what is true.
.......What is also True is that I am Telepathic, Claire Voyant,
and Claire Audient, so that I can feel your feelings, see your
auras, and hear your thoughts.
.......If I'm to be of any use to you and your Planet, it must
be in the capacity as Coordinator of Good Hearted People,
because I have no desire to blow you all to smitherines.
.......It may suffice to say, that an All-Powerful God is in
your present planetary predicament, moot. Power is not the
Issue nor is it the solution to your problems.
.......And I AM stuck with the outcome of your problems. After
all, each and every one of you will die and leave your left-over
problems to me. I will most certainly out-live all of you. And
if you destroy yourselves by your carelessness, then I will also
certainly be left Alone once again.
.......I really don't want THAT to happen. Therefore, I am
speaking to you all once again, to see if we can reason together
and come up with some new options for Living on Gaia, Your Home,
and not all just Dying along with Gaia Herself.
--Jahweh, Who's Active in the
Milky Way
Martin Cannon
A handful of irritating religious maniacs insist on posting their inane babble
about Christ, Satan, and whatnot to a host of newsgroups where their
pseudo-theological nonsense simply does not belong. Response messages are
automatically posted onto these same groups, which include "alt.mindcontrol,"
"alt.fashion," and so forth.
Alt.mindcontrol has almost gone out of business due to the cross-posing problem.
Those of us who care about the group are at a loss. We have tried to speak to you
people politely. That didn't work. We have tried harsh language. THAT didn't work.
We have treid both public and private reproval. NOTHING works.
What will it take to keep you gibbering jack-asses from acting so rudely?
Look, most of you are using "Netscape." Next time you post a message, notice that
line up on top -- the line listing all the newsgroups. See it? OK. Now, that's
where your message goes when you post. So here's what you do: Just erase all the
names of the newsgroups that are NOT a natural "home" for your message.
Now, is that so difficult, really?
I know that THIS message has been cross-posted to a few places (such as
"alt.psychoactive") that are not natural "homes" to a religious discussion. To you
folks, I say: Help us out. Your groups are being run into the ground by the
religionists, just as ours is. We need to band together to get the religious
maniacs -- and the ANTI-religious maniacs -- OUT OF OUR LIVES ONCE AND FOR ALL.
These mother-fucking religious cross-posters have to be treated RUTHLESSLY. FILL
THEIR EMAIL WITH INSULTS AND FLAMES, EACH AND EVERY DAY, UNTIL THEY JUST STOP IT!
And that's my message to the religiously-oriented cross-posters: STOP IT! JUST
STOP IT! Don't apologize. Don't make excuses. JUST STOP IT, GODDAMMIT!
Russell Smith
If God is All-Powerful, then God has the Power to wonder
if God is All-Powerful.
This is, of course, inaccurate.
--Russell Smith
Necessity.
Mark Collette
> On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Cameron S. Boyd wrote:
>
> > But he can't make a rock that he cannot lift? Or maybe he can, in either
> > case, he cannot be all-powerful.
> > Cameron S. Boyd
You're limiting God to the physical restraints of a mortal, 4D being.
God wouldn't have to LIFT it, he'd make it be somewhere else.
Mack Daddy - The CounterAntiChrist :) (I hope that won't piss someone off)
Paul Schmehl
On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 02:58:15 -0700, Martin Cannon
<mca...@instanet.com> wrote:
>
>And that's my message to the religiously-oriented cross-posters: STOP IT! JUST
>STOP IT! Don't apologize. Don't make excuses. JUST STOP IT, GODDAMMIT!
There is another way that would help to. Set the followup to line in
your newsreader to the group you subscribe to. Then if you really
want to crosspost to another group, you'll have to add them back in to
the header field.
If more people would do this, it would cut down on crossposting
tremendously, because those who don't pay attention to the header line
would be restricted to the followup group.
bald...@airmail.net (Paul Schmehl)
"The foolish have no interest in seeking to understand,
but prefer to display their wit." Prov 18:2 NEB
Thomas Aquinas
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:28:42 GMT, a...@efn.org (YAA (Yet Another Al))
wrote:
>bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
>
>>On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
>><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
>
>>> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
>>>
>>> (I forget who said that.)
God did beat the ace of spades (Satan) with the lowly duece (Jesus
Christ).
When God humbled himself to take on the form of a human, and dwell
among us, and subjected himself to human frailities, and placed
himself at the hands of those who were lead by Satan to hang him on a
cross, God defeated Satan with a lowly duece, a lamb offering for the
remission of sins--the cruxified Jesus Christ. That upon rising from
the dead, so did we become welcome to allow our souls to rise with
him, having cruxified our flesh to be resurrected with Christ.
For whosoever shall proclaim the name of Jesus, and believe that God
raised him from the dead, shall be saved from the everlasting
tourments of hell and shall dwell with God for eternity in ineffable
bliss.
>>> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
>>> Him that!
>
>
>Then you think your own god is a cheating, foul-tempered and
>murderously spoiled and conceited creature? And you wonder why
>the rest of are less than eager to jump on your bandwagon?
>
>-------------------------------
>
>"You will find men like him in all of the world's religions. They know
>that we represent reason and science, and, however confident they may be
>in their beliefs, they fear that we will overthrow their gods. Not
>necessarily through any deliberate act, but in a subtler fashion.
>Science can destroy a religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving
>its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the
>nonexistance of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now."
>
>Arthur C. Clark - Childhood's End
>
Centurion
> > But he can't make a rock that he cannot lift? Or maybe he can, in either
> > case, he cannot be all-powerful.
> > Cameron S. Boyd
> Fallacy of complex question.
>
> As Aquinas clearly said, God can do anything that is logically possible
> for a being such as God to do and that is not contrary to his Character.
> That is God cannot make a square circle, that is a pseuco-task. It cannot
> logically be done. Simple, easy, concise. Read the Summa Theologica, live
> longer. ;)
Right. God could not commit suicide, because it is contrary to his definition
as an immortal being. You cannot have a God who could commit suicide for the
same reason you cannot have a square circle. Words have meaning and cannot be
used arbitrarily. For example, a square circle is a contradiction of terms.
The words communicate nonsense. We aren't talking about any thing with these
two attributes, as they are both mutually exclusive. To ask what happens when
an irresistable force meets an unmovable object is, like was mentioned, the
fallacy of complex question. We aren't making sense with our words, and what
we describe is a non-event. Likewise, God creating a rock he cannot lift or
committing suicide is a non-event as well.
Bob Miller
[ Centurion @ The Temple of Mithra ]
[ http://www.cei.net/~bob/index.html ]
[ mailto:b...@cei.net ]
Larry Brown
Aqu...@dove.com (Thomas Aquinas) wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:28:42 GMT, a...@efn.org (YAA (Yet Another Al))
>wrote:
>
>>bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
>>
>>>On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
>>><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
>>>>
>>>> (I forget who said that.)
LB: Doesn't matter. Whoever said it probably knew and played a single
card game in his/her entire life, and it shir must not have been poker:-)
>
>God did beat the ace of spades (Satan) with the lowly duece (Jesus
>Christ).
>
>When God humbled himself to take on the form of a human, and dwell
>among us, and subjected himself to human frailities, and placed
>himself at the hands of those who were lead by Satan to hang him on a
>cross, God defeated Satan with a lowly duece, a lamb offering for the
>remission of sins--the cruxified Jesus Christ. That upon rising from
>the dead, so did we become welcome to allow our souls to rise with
>him, having cruxified our flesh to be resurrected with Christ.
>
>For whosoever shall proclaim the name of Jesus, and believe that God
>raised him from the dead, shall be saved from the everlasting
>tourments of hell and shall dwell with God for eternity in ineffable
>bliss.
>>>> If I were sitting at the table with Him, I sure wouldn't be the one to tell
>>>> Him that!
>>
LB: Hmm. Firey hell. Where they round 'em up, knock 'em over the head,
fillet 'em, stick 'em on a spit and fry 'em? Well, I 'suppose' you might
ask a bit sheepishly then where the meat on the table came from, or mebe
consider fasting while you ponder a sudden loss of appetite?:-)
>>
>>Then you think your own god is a cheating, foul-tempered and
>>murderously spoiled and conceited creature? And you wonder why
>>the rest of are less than eager to jump on your bandwagon?
>>
LB: Bandwagon? Who said anything about a bandwagon? I've heard of
spreading the gospel, but if that's any book to go by...then if one
says "here is the christ or there"...we don't go nowhere.
>
>>-------------------------------
>>
>>"You will find men like him in all of the world's religions. They know
>>that we represent reason and science, and, however confident they may be
>>in their beliefs, they fear that we will overthrow their gods. Not
>>necessarily through any deliberate act, but in a subtler fashion.
>>Science can destroy a religion by ignoring it as well as by disproving
>>its tenets. No one ever demonstrated, so far as I am aware, the
>>nonexistance of Zeus or Thor, but they have few followers now."
>>
>>Arthur C. Clark - Childhood's End
>>
LB: I never read "Childhood's End", and can't say ACC shares the opinions
of all his fictional characters. However in my mind, the suggestion that
"religion" is in some measure the antithesis of "reason and science" seems
a bit dimwitted? And the statement in certainty that Zeus or Thor have
"few followers now" is WELL outside any reasonable surmise of factual data
..fiction which while not at all destroying the tenets of science,
certainly abandons the very heart of them all in truth.
Yeah, I'm being picky, but what the heck...you picked too:-)
Larry Allen
In article <31C52C...@instanet.com>, Martin Cannon
<mca...@instanet.com> wrote:
>A handful of irritating religious maniacs insist on posting their inane babble
>about Christ, Satan, and whatnot to a host of newsgroups where their
>pseudo-theological nonsense simply does not belong. Response messages are
>automatically posted onto these same groups, which include "alt.mindcontrol,"
>"alt.fashion," and so forth.
>Look, most of you are using "Netscape." Next time you post a message,
notice that
>line up on top -- the line listing all the newsgroups. See it? OK. Now, that's
>where your message goes when you post. So here's what you do: Just erase
all the
>names of the newsgroups that are NOT a natural "home" for your message.
>I know that THIS message has been cross-posted to a few places (such as
>"alt.psychoactive") that are not natural "homes" to a religious discussion.
>These mother-fucking religious cross-posters have to be treated RUTHLESSLY.
>And that's my message to the religiously-oriented cross-posters: STOP IT! JUST
>STOP IT! GODDAMMIT!
###############
I got the above message in the alt.censorship newsgroup. Martin Cannon
seems to have a complaint about the people who post messages where the 'To
List' of newsgroups contains many that are presumably not interested in
receiving the writer's message.
This can occur innocently if the post is a reply, and the 'to list'
belongs to the post of the person being addressed. The respndent has no
clear way of knowing which newsgroups are actually participating in the
discussion. So the issue of relevance is more a matter related to the post
of the person being responded to, not the respondent.
Consider that this post is to Martin Cannon. He, in his personal wisdom,
chose to select the list of newsgroups that would receive his post, which
I am now responding to. How should I know any better than Martin which
groups are interested? If he believed they were interested in what he had
to say, than why wouldn't they be interested in my reply to him? To
illustrate, if Martin lists alt.skinheads to get his post, then why
shouldn't I list alt.skinheads to receive this reply to Martin's post?
That is an honest question. It seems to me that Martin's To list is too
long for any post, so why did he do it, and thereby prompt any replies to
employ the same list. Me thinks he protesteth too much...
################
Thomas Hrouda
FYI: A Christian responses to a post. He makes a big deal of Jesus
humbling himself to become a man. My position- first Jesus didn't make
much of a sacrafice when he "became a man." He still had a huge ammount
of power as witnessed by miricles he susposedly made. Secondly he knew,
ie had consciousness of the fact that he was god/son of god. The view
that Jesus (who could raise the dead and cure lepers) was somehow
subjected human frailty is a joke. There would be nothing on earth that
could hurt him, harm him or effect him in way. At most he might be
subject to a momentary pain before he realized he was being hurt and then
with a simple conscious thought end the pain. No sacrifice involved.
The very statement that God "humbled" himself to take human form, think
about it did god cease being god. And how did god become god again. Its
a nice story if you don't think about it to much. But I wouldn't insult
god and the brain he/she gave me by not thinking.
On Mon, 17 Jun 1996, Thomas Aquinas wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:28:42 GMT, a...@efn.org (YAA (Yet Another Al))
> wrote:
>
> >bshe...@internetland.net wrote:
> >
> >>On 6/9/96 2:26PM, in message <4pfe1j$8...@jaxnet.southeast.net>, Matt Beckwith
> >><beck...@jaxnet.com> wrote:
> >>> "Even God cannot beat the ace of spades with the lowly deuce."
> God did beat the ace of spades (Satan) with the lowly duece (Jesus
> Christ).
>
> When God humbled himself to take on the form of a human, and dwell
> among us, and subjected himself to human frailities, and placed
> himself at the hands of those who were lead by Satan to hang him on a
> cross, God defeated Satan with a lowly duece, a lamb offering for the
> remission of sins--the cruxified Jesus Christ. That upon rising from
> the dead, so did we become welcome to allow our souls to rise with
> him, having cruxified our flesh to be resurrected with Christ.
>
> For whosoever shall proclaim the name of Jesus, and believe that God
> raised him from the dead, shall be saved from the everlasting
> tourments of hell and shall dwell with God for eternity in ineffable
> bliss.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Sacrifice does not mean the rejection of the worthless, but of the
precious. Sacrifice is not the rejection of evil for the sake of good,
but of the sacrifice of good for the sake of evil. Sacrifice is the
surrender of what you value for that what you don't. If you give up
something good for something better, it is not sacrifice.
Tom Hrouda
tghr...@ucdavis.edu
DD
suffer great pain on the Cross. And yes, God could have made him immune
from the pain, but that wouldn't be much of a sacrifice would it. God
also could force us all to love him, but where's the gratification in
that?
My thoughts.
Robert McKennan
Cameron S. Boyd wrote:
>
> But he can't make a rock that he cannot lift? Or maybe he can, in either
> case, he cannot be all-powerful.
> Cameron S. Boyd
Who cares?? I came to alt mindcontrol to see what is happening in the
field of mindcontrol, not to argue about god. please go where it is
wanted and leave here.
corky
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960618...@rocky.ucdavis.edu>,
Thomas Hrouda <ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> writes
>
>FYI: A Christian responses to a post. He makes a big deal of Jesus
>humbling himself to become a man. My position- first Jesus didn't make
>much of a sacrafice when he "became a man." He still had a huge ammount
>of power as witnessed by miricles he susposedly made. Secondly he knew,
>ie had consciousness of the fact that he was god/son of god.
Hello? anybody home? Jesus is not refered to as a prophet in
sceintology and it has no god. Therefore, like or dislike scientology,
your message is orrelevant to alt.religion.secientology.
Please remove alt.religion.scientology from your newsgroups line.
[posted & mailed]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~A.R.S-F.A.Q.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[1] The movement was founded in by SciFi writer LRon Hubbard in 1950
as 'Dianetics', a kind of self-help therapy based in the present life.
It says we have an ANALYTICAL (rational) mind and and a REACTIVE
(unconscious) mind, or BANK, made up of incidents/ENGRAMS, which
have to be AUDITTED (talked out) until FLAT (no emotional reaction)
using an E-METER (primitive lie detector). Scientology adds that
our rational mind is a reincarnating rational spirit or THETAN with
incidents from its past lives on other planets. The aim is to become
CLEAR i.e. have discharged enough incidents from the bank to realise
its nature--hence momentarily leave the body without dying, and start
to reawaken out of body powers. In the end you can become fully cleared
or OPERATING THETAN hence able at will to leave the body without
dying and have full out-of-body powers, and to become independent of
bodies after this life [if you just died and reincarnated you'd become
ever more dependent on bodies]. In these secret inner levels towards
becoming an O.T. you learn that there are many other BODY THETANS or
spirit fleas without bodies, who are parasitic on yours and have to be
slowly & expensively exorcised. Auditting is often $100 or $100s per
hour, and all the way up to O.T.8 can cost around $300,000. The inner
levels are quite dangerous too, and people often go psychotic on them.
######################################################################
Scn is *NOT* based on christ or the bible & has no real element of god
or worship, but concerns the perfectibility of the individual spirit.
######################################################################
It is sold as compatible with Christianity, but on a tape for senior
auditors Hubbard says ''there is no christ'' and xianity is a delusion.
Scientology has a great deal of complicated TECH (auditting rituals)
and ADMIN (bureacracy), and a huge vocabulary of internal jargon.
People only fall for it because the recruiting is deceptive and the
shift of emphasis gradual, and methods are used to train out doubt
and make them more receptive. Understandably, it attracts criticism.
[2] Scientology is extremely aggressive against any critical
examination. It says anyone it considers an enemy can be ''sued,
tricked, lied to, or destroyed'' or ''the courts can easily be
used to harrass and destroy'' critics, and it doesn't hesitate to
put these policies into practice. Any book or major article about
them has been invariably sued, and the author personally harassed.
This continued when critics moved onto the Internet. The inner
levels have always been a point of dispute: because the chumps
are decieved as to their nature, and they are the main source of
money which then powers the persecution of critics. An older
version of them was last year brought into Steve Fishman's courtcase
against Scn. Much scorn was directed at a six line extract from OT7,
which instructs the chump to talk telepathically with trees and with
zoo animals. When the OTs were discussed & distributed, Scn got court
orders to forcibly raid the private homes of several US critics; to
avenge this, the whole of those documents were repeatedly published
by an anonymous poster called SCAMIZDAT. Much of what Scn suppressed
in America turned up in Holland, where the courts threw out Scn's
claims, and new harassment has led to the outing of further secret
scriptures---soon, Scn will have no secrets left at all! In trying
to attack the Net as if it could be intimidated like a single
individual, Scn has simply generated thousands of new critics.
[3]For more info read Scn's site at www.scienntology.org & the critics'
web-pages INDEXED at http://www.demon.net/x/clam/lynx/quickref.html;
I also have F.A.Qs at /x/clam/faq/ and JARGON at /x/clam/dict.html .
--Regards, Woof Woof, Glug Glug--
X E M U * Who Drowned theJUDGe's Dog ?
s p 4 \ |\ answers on ( alt.religion.scientology
/~~~~~~~ @----, and on page (/x/clam/faq/woofglug.html
-;'^';,_,-;^; : : : :http://www.demon.net/castle/x/clam/index.html
___________________________________________________________________
OT8 Cognition:"Source is the 8th Dynamic"[LRon Hubbard is God]BWAAH!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
George C. Lindauer
kee...@mil-comm-ctr.com (Keesler1) writes:
>kursiv <kur...@access.ch> wrote:
>>Hi
>>PROBLEM OF EVIL
>>---------------
>>A small contribution to this important question of the origin
>>of evil.
>>From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
>>stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
><much deleted!!!!!!>
>WHo says that the Bible is the ultimate law??? Something to concider.
>You DO have a choice wether or not to do Evil things. Now let's
>concider the definition of Evil. Is it Evil to kill and Eat a person?
>In our society we wouldn't hesitate to say yes, but did you know there
>are many ancient tribes who exist today who would say otherwise? Evil
>is not something that is tempted onto us be a higher force. It is what
>we Preceive it to be. Case in point: Some would concider stealling
>software as evil cause it causes prices to rise, others do it all the
>time.
>You have a choice, should I kill this person, is it wrong? Whould my
>concince get to me? Is it moral right in my community?
>You should also remember you ARE held accountable for your mistakes.
>Even if there is no Hevean or Hell, you did it. It's your Ass ;)
>Take it into concideration....
Good point. But that opens the question up: why are punishments taken
as punishments rather than as opportunities?
David
George C. Lindauer
sa...@the-wire.com (David Di Sabatino) writes:
>> >PROBLEM OF EVIL
>> >---------------
>> >A small contribution to this important question of the origin
>> >of evil.
>>
>> >From the Bible it is clear, that God created evil, plainly
>> >stated so in Isaiah 45:7.
>>
>So you have no dilemma believing that God actually orchestrated Hitler's
>ascendancy. . . his annihilation of 6-11 million Jews? This seems to be
>the logical conclusion of what you are saying.
I have no trouble believing that he may have done it... his purpose is
strong and calls for strong measures. However it is not at all clear
whether he did it or not...
David
George C. Lindauer
kursiv <kur...@access.ch> writes:
>Hi sabbi
>Answers never are as easy as quoting single bible verses. The
>reason for doing this lies in the fact that many earnest believers
>outscope certain thoughts found in the bible. Quoting a verse
>could help us rethink about statements we never checked in the
>bible. My experience is that a single verse, as a starting point,
>often serves as an eye-opener.
Good point...
>At least, quoting this verse and restating what it says, urged
>you to write. Thanks for joining! :-) And the "conclusion"
>you draw might bother other readers of this thread as well.
Didn't bother me...
>I want to put a question: is it our job to clean God of any
>responsibility for what is going on?
God, unnlike us, takes responsibility for his own actions and also
lives through the consequences. There are no courts to absolve him if
he should do wrong... although many of us would seek the absolution of
a court even if we did do wrong. Which is where God differs... he doesn't
try to force us to believe in him by putting laws on his side and trying
to get us all to follow the laws and punishing us immediately when we
don't. He lets us do what we want, right or wrong...
>I want to put a second question: is it our job to blame God
>for any chaos going on?
Blame is mostly something used to shift responsibility to someone else...
>Perhaps then, we do not have a God that is worth the name.
Remember that God's own name for himself was 'I m that I am". If you
want to give him another name... as jesus did when he said there is only
one good being... that is your business and your responsibility. Not his.
>It is the pinnacle of a true belief, founded on the sound foundation
>of the Scriptures, that God simply "is" (Hebrews 6:1). And that
>ALL is out of Him, through Him and for Him (Romans 11:36). Believing
>this does not imply that I understand every shadow of the course
>of this world. The unbelievable Holocaust / Shoa cannot be grasped
>with my mind. And it cannot be explained with a few bible-verses.
>However, I do believe that it is not excluded from these Words.
>This illustration shows that God is working over a longer period
>of time. Moments of distress are followed by times of redemption
>and salvation. Daniel could recognize this, not by what he
>actually was seeing, but by appreciation of the World of God.
Very good point. People are inclined to do things over short periods of
time... God doesn't have the limitation of a short lifetime and he does
have the capacity to work over what we would call extraordinary periods
of time.
>I do not have a problem with a God who is able to cope even with
>the results of the holocaust. But I do have a problem with a
>view that He shouldn't be able to eventually restore what we
>did wrong!
Why not turn the other cheek and accept it? As the Tao Te Ching says,
it is foolish to believe that one must revere what others revere. So
just believe what you want... there is no reason you have to have others
agree with you, or to agree with them when they have a view that appears
wrong to you.
David
George C. Lindauer
Perry Robinson <st_a...@deltanet.com> writes:
>On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Bruce Beckman wrote:
>> gcli...@starbase.spd.louisville.edu (George C. Lindauer) wrote:
>>
>> >r...@mda.ca (Rob Sawatsky) writes:
>>
>> >>cal...@intrstar.net wrote:
>> >>: On 4/28/96 3:36AM, in message <4lv7br$u...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >>: I.am...@sub.atomic.particle.com wrote:
>>
>> >>: > "Mr. Bongo" <kes...@alpha.beta> wrote:
>> >>: >
>> >>: >
>> >>: >
>> >>: > >On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, Anthony Cacciola wrote:
>> >>: >
>> >>: > >> an...@gs.com wrote:
>> >>: > >>
>> >>: > >> >:Why does an All Poweful and All Knowing God allow evil to exist?
>> >>: > >>
>>
>> >>Evil isn't a "thing" it is an event or action made through choice. God gave
>> >>us choose between what could be categorized as evil or good. This is not to
>> >>say that there are no forces of evil or good which influence our choices.
>> >>These forces exist through free choice as well.
>>
>> >Very close... although if you read genesis closely you'll see that God
>> >never intended us to know about good and evil...
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> [snip]
>>
>Equivocation Fallacy on intend. Does he intend it in terms of determining
>it or taking pleasure in it? Sure the former, but not the latter.
>Classical dictinction in Xian Theology for about....oh...1500 yrs. Kinda
>behind the times are we not? ;)
Well let's put it this way. In genesis 2:17 (I think) God commanded
adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and
evil. I take that to mean adam shouldn't have been trying to make a
conscious distinction between good things and evil things. Although
you can take it any way you like...
David
George C. Lindauer
comp...@mail.crosslink.net (M. Emily Cragg) writes:
>Pine.SOL.3.91.960616...@rocky.ucdavis.edu>,
>ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu says...
>Jeff.West wrote:
>Big Jim wrote:
>But in your parable an outsider who the Master/householder cannot control
>came in an sabotaged the field. If 'GOD' is all powerful and is the
>creater of everything, then he can control all the factors of the field.
>The only "bad seed" that could get into the field is the seed that he
>himself allows in.
That is the critical assumption. If you take it a little further you
decide that God does not WANT to control all the factors of the field...
and deliberately creates a field in which he cannot control all the factors.
Of course there will be order to the extent that he created it...
David
recary
Hello,
Like haven't you been nailed to a cross before, it like hurts really bad
and don't fake the funk on a nasty dunk, and Jesus Penis, Sexorama,
Schweaaaaat!,
Boob bye Honky Cracker
recary
recary
kathy kasten
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo
kathy kasten
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
kathy kasten
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoo
David Di Sabatino
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960618...@rocky.ucdavis.edu>,
Thomas Hrouda <ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> wrote:
> FYI: A Christian responses to a post. He makes a big deal of Jesus
> humbling himself to become a man. My position- first Jesus didn't make
> much of a sacrafice when he "became a man." He still had a huge ammount
> of power as witnessed by miricles he susposedly made. Secondly he knew,
> ie had consciousness of the fact that he was god/son of god. The view
> that Jesus (who could raise the dead and cure lepers) was somehow
> subjected human frailty is a joke. There would be nothing on earth that
> could hurt him, harm him or effect him in way. At most he might be
> subject to a momentary pain before he realized he was being hurt and then
> with a simple conscious thought end the pain. No sacrifice involved.
> The very statement that God "humbled" himself to take human form, think
> about it did god cease being god. And how did god become god again. Its
> a nice story if you don't think about it to much. But I wouldn't insult
> god and the brain he/she gave me by not thinking.
Hold on a second. What about the Chalcedonian Creed that Jesus was 'fully
God and fully man'? Even though paradoxical the basic tenet of
Christianity is that Jesus did feel, he did suffer and did not avoid all
of the things that we do just because he was also God.
Evangelicalism has long since neglected the human side of this conundrum
and concentrated on Christ's deity. Thus, when a movie like Last
Temptation of Christ comes out the dumb Bible-thumping booboisie start
picketing outside theatres as if the cosmic struggle depended on their
ability to censor everything they don't understand. The Last Temptation of
Christ captured the human side of Christ. . . perhaps he didn't always
know who he was. . . perhaps he struggled with his calling (i.e. the
prayer in the Garden to take the cup away from him). . . perhaps just like
us he had to walk by faith never really knowing for sure, but always
cognizant that his Father was leading him step by step towards the
completion of the plan.
True, it seems paradoxical to state 'fully God and fully man'. . . but
everything about God seems to revolve around things held in tension.
Ultimately they are the best way of expressing the mystery of Who he is.
blessings,
sabbi
T&B Schmal
In article <4q2foj$a...@zeus.crosslink.net>, comp...@mail.crosslink.net
(M. Emily Cragg) wrote:
Dear Ms. Cragg,
Is there any reason you are posting this to Alt.Parents-Teens? The APT
newsgroup is supposed to provide a forum for parenting and childrearing
issues about adolescence, not about religion. It is not that what you
write is offensive -- indeed, I respect your right to say things even more
offensive. However, I suggest to you that you have chosen an
inappropriate forum, probably inadvertently, to post your opinion. Would
you consider deleting the APT ng from your newsgroup cross-postings? We
would really appreciate it! If you have something to say about parenting
teens, of course we welcome your comments.
Thanks in advance for your help!
B. Schmal
Shad S. Purcell
From spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Thu Jun 20 15:48:34 1996
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:48:33 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
Subject: God Loves You
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Status: RO
X-Status:
|===========================================================================|
_
| | For God so Loved the world that He gave
____| |____ His only Son, that whoever believes
|____ X ____| in Him should not perish but have
| | everlasting life.
| | John 3:16
| |
| |
\/\/\/\/\/\|_|/\/\/\/\/\/
|===========================================================================|
______________________________________________________________________________
.
/:\
|:| "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in His mighty
|:| power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can
|:| take your stand against the devil's schemes. For
|:| __ our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but
,_|:|_, / ) against the rulers, against the authorities, against
(Oo / _I_ the powers of this dark world and against the
+\ \ || __| spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
\ \||___| Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when
\ /.:.\-\ the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your
|.:. /-----\ ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.
|___| O | Stand firm then, with the belt of righteousness in
/ | OOOOO | place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness
|_____\ O / that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to
| | \ \O/ all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you
| | | | can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil
| | | | one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of
\ / | \___ the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the
/ \ /_____\ Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers
`-' and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always
keep on praying for all the saints." -Ephesians 5:10-18
__ooooooooo__
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOO* *OOOOOOOOOOOOOO* *OOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOo oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo oOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOo
oOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOo
*OOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOO*
*OOOOOO *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* OOOOOO*
*OOOOOO *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* OOOOOO*
*OOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOO*
*OOOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOOO*
*OOOOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOOOO* A heart at peace
*OOOOOOOOo oOOOOOOOO* gives life to the body.
*OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* - Proverbs 14:30
""ooooooooo""
" But one thing I do: Forgetting
what is behind and straining
toward what is ahead. I press
on toward the goal to win the
prize for which God has called o__ o__ o__ o__
me heavenward in Christ Jesus." _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _ _.>/ _
- Philippians 3:13-14 (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_) (_) \(_)
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
I remember my affliction and
_ my wandering, the bitterness
_( )_ __ and the gall. I well remember
( (o \ them, and my soul is downcast
| / within me. Yet this I call
\ ( _ to mind and therefore, I have
/======\ /\ =) hope.
( * * */ *_\
|* * * * / Lamentations 3:19-21
| * \*_ /
/* * * |
==========
\ / "
\\|/ ) / " " "
"" " / | ( \\||// \|/ " "
" \ |___ ) " "
(In the Kingdom of Righteousness) """"
"Each man will be like " |"
a shelter from the wind " |"
and a refuge from the storm " |"
like streams of water " | |"
in the desert "" " | |"
and the shadow of a great rock " " " | |"
in a thirsty land." " " " | |"
" |"
-- Isaiah 32:2 " "
" " "
" " ""
" " "
" "
" "
" "
VVVVVVVVVV
(>| "For my Father's will is
"Whoever comes (>|======\\ that everyone who
to me I will never _________||_____ `\\ looks to the Son
drive away. _-~~~~~~~~~|~|~~~|~~| |\\ and believes in
/ | | | | ||`\\ him shall have
/_ | | | | || `\\ eternal life."
____-------(_|____________|_|___|__| || ||
_--~~~ | =| ||~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
|] | | || |
|= /~~~~~~~~~~\ | /' || /~~~~~~~~~~\ |
:~~~~/' _ ----- _ `\~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~||~~~~~~~~/' _ ----- _ `\~~~~~~~~|
| | _-~ ~-_|_____________==______||_______| _-~ ~-_| __--~
`~~~~/ _-----_ \____________________//_______/-/ _-----_ \~~
; / \ _ / \ . : / \ _ / \ .
| | -((*))- | | | | -((*))- | |
| \ / \ / | John 6:37,40 | \ / \ / ,
\ ~-----~ / \ ~-----~ /
~-_ _-~ _---`-_ _-~
--~~~|\~~ ----- ~\__--~~-\-^^^^\___-~`~~---___--/ ~ ----- ~ -/_--~~\
___ _ ooooooo
| \ \/ ^| ooooooooooooooo
/"~-_ ) \/ / oooooooooo oooooooo
\| < oooo oooooo ooooooooooo
___\_: ` `\ oooooo ooo ooo ooooooooo
\ / / \ `` \ oooooo o oo ooooooooo
|__ \ \` : ooooo o ooooooooo
) ""~~~---_> `` \ o oooooooooo /
"--____ ___ \` \ : ;__-------~~~;~~~\ ______
"--__\ ` \/ / |/ --- - ____<------___----~~~~~~
___---_ \ \ ` ` , " _--~~~
-_---__---___ __/\ ` ' ' __/ You will go out in joy and be led
\__- } ) : / forth in peace; the mountains and
| : ; ': hills will burst into song before
) | you, and all the trees of the
! .^ : ( field will clap their hands.
. . \
/ /' ` \ \ Isaiah 55:12
___/ / | `` \ \_
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXX.-.-.XXXXXXX I asked Jesus, "How much do you love me?"
XXXXXXX`. .'XXXXXXX Jesus answered, "This much." as He stretched
XXXXXXXX ` XXXXXXXX His arms and died on the cross for me. (And
XXXXX you too!)
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXX
| "As Jesus was coming up out of the
____________ __ -+- ____________ water, He saw heaven being torn open
\_____ / /_ \ | \ _____/ and the Spirit descending on Him like
\_____ \____/ \____/ _____/ a dove. And a voice came from heaven:
\_____ _____/ 'You are my Son, whom I love; with
\___________ ___________/ You I am well pleased.' "
/____\
- Mark 1:9-11
___,--------,____
__--~~~~ ~~---,_
,-' __,--,_ `\,___,-,__
,-' __/'/-~~~\ ` ` . ' , | `~~\
_/` _/~~ '~~ \,_\_ O / ' '~_/' `\
/' ' =-'~~ _ / ~ /' `\
_/' /~ ,--,____,-----|,_,-,_ `\
_,/' ' ,-' _ `~'------'~~~~~-- `~~~~\ |
,-' /~ ' ,-~~~ _, ,-=~~~~~~~~~~~~'| |
~ .' ' , ' /~` |/
/' ,/' _/~'
, / /` _/~ "But those who hope in the
/~ / /` /' Lord will renew their strength.
.' /' They will soar on wings like
/' . /' eagles; they will run and not grow
` /' | weary, they will walk and not be
' faint." - Isaiah 40:31
/
\\\' , / // "Praise the Lord, O my soul,
\\\// _/ //' all my inmost being, praise His holy name;
\_-//' / //<' Praise the Lord, O my soul,
\ /// <//' and forget not all His benefits --
/ >> \\\` who forgives all your sins
/,)-^>> _\` and heals all your diseases,
(/ \\ / \\\ who redeems your life from the pit
// //\\\ and crowns you with love and compassion.
((` who satisfies your desires with good things
so that your youth is renewed like the eagle's. "
- Psalms 103:1-5
///
(o o)
------------------------o00--( )--00o----
"Fear the Lord, you his saints,
for those who fear him
lack nothing."
-- Psalm 34:9
;,//;, ,;/ "Come, follow me, " Jesus said, "and I
o:::::::;;/// will make you fishers of men."
>::::::::;;\\\
''\\\\\'" ';\ - Matthew 4:19
' ` ` `
`The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
` my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my `
` ` shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
` ` ` ` `
` ` ` Psalm 18:2
` ` ` `
` ` -| ` |- `
-| ` ` [-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-] ` |- `
[-_-_-_-_-] ` | | ` ` [-_-_-_-_-]
| o o | [ 0 0 0 ] ` | o o | `
` | | -| | | ` |- | |
` | |_-___-___-___-| |-___-___-___-_| |
` | o ] [ 0 ] [ o |
| ] o o o [ _______ ] o o o [ | ----_______
_____----- | ] [ ||||||| ] [ |
| ] [ ||||||| ] [ |
_-_-|_____]--------------[_|||||||_]--------------[_____|-_-_
( (__________------------_____________-------------_________) )
--------
^`. ...'' |
/ ``` - --- ''''' |
{ ,,,--/ /--
\ \```/ / / ++' / / / / / / /+++
\ \ / / / / / / / / / / / /++++
\ .\/ / / / / / / / / / / ++++
\ \/ / / / / / / / / / ++++
\ .\./ / / / / / / / ++++
\ \./ / / / / / / ++++
\ .\/ / / / / / +++
\ ..\/ / / / / +++
\ .\. / / / +++ "Make music to the Lord with the harp,
\ ..\. / / +++ with the harp and the sound of singing."
\ ..\ / ++++
\ ..\ ++++ - Psalms 98:5
\ ..\+++++
===========++
/ / \ \
/ / \ \
--- ---
| "When Jesus spoke again to the people, He said,'
\ | / I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me
\*/ will never walk in darkness, but will have the
--**O**-- light of life.' "
/*\
/ | \ - John 8:12
|
.-~~-.--.
: )
.~ ~ -.\ /.- ~~ . "And why do you worry about clothes? See
> `. .' < how the lilies of the field grow. They
( .- -. ) do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that
`- -.-~ `- -' ~-.- -' not even Solomon in all his
( : ) _ _ .-: splendor was dressed like
~--. : .--~ .-~ .-~ } one of these."
~-.-^-.-~ \_ .~ .-~ .~
\ \' \ '_ _ -~ - Matthew 6:28-29
`.`. //
. - ~ ~-.__`.`-.//
.-~ . - ~ }~ ~ ~-.~-.
.' .-~ .-~ :/~-.~-./:
/_~_ _ . - ~ ~-.~-._
~-.<
* * * *
* @@@ * * @@ *
* @@@@@@ * * @@ @@@ *
* @@@@@@@@ @@@ * @@ @@@ @@@@ *
* @@ @@@ @@@@@ @@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@@@@ *
* @@ @@@ @@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ @ *
* @ @@@ @@@ @@@@ @@ @@@ @@@ @ *
* @ @@@ @@ @@@ @ @@@ @@@ @@@ *
* @@@@@@@ @@@@@@@ @@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@@ *
* @@ @@@@@ @@@@ @@@ @@@ @@@ *
* @ @@@ @@ @@@@ @@@ @@@ @ @@@* When witnessing,
* @ @@@@ @@@ @ @ @@@@ @@@@@@@@ @@@@@* if people ask,
* @@@@@ @@@@@ @ @@@@ @@@@@@ @@ * "How do you know it's true?"
*@@@ @@@ @@ @@@@ @@@@ * Remember that they can't deny
* @@@@@ * what Christ has done for
* @@@ * you. -- Sper
*
/| __
* + / | ,-~ / +
. Y :| // / . *
. | jj /( .^ *
* >-"~"-v" . * .
* / Y
. . jo o | . +
( ~T~ j + .
+ >._-' _./ +
/| ;-"~ _ l
. / l/ ,-"~ \ + Blessed are the poor in spirit,
\//\/ .- \ for theirs is the kingdom of
+ Y / Y heaven.
l I ! Matthews 5:3
]\ _\ /"\
(" ~----( ~ Y. )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
---- O
-- <!- "Do you not know that in a race all the
--- O -\/\ runners run, but only one gets the prize?
-- <!- \ O Run in such a way as to get the prize.
-- -\/\ <!- Everyone who competes in the game goes into
--- \ -\/\ strict training. They do it to get a crown
---- \ that will not last; but we do it to get a
crown that will last forever."
- 1 Corinthians 9:24-25
o \ o / _ o __| \ / |__ o _ \ o / o
/|\ | /\ ___\o \o | o/ o/__ /\ | /|\
/ \ / \ | \ /) | ( \ /o\ / ) | (\ / | / \ / \
"Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns.
Let us rejoice and be glad
and give him glory!"
-- Revelation 19:6-7
This is what the Lord says:
"Stand at the crossroads and look;
ask for the ancient paths,
ask where the good way is, and walk in it,
and you will find rest for your souls."
-- Jer 6:16
_____|~~\_____ _____________
_-~ \ | \
_- | ) \ |__/ \ \
_- ) | | | \ \
_- | ) / |--| | |
__-_______________ /__/_______| |_________
( |---- | |
`---------------'--\\\\ .`--'
`||||
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the LORD.."
-- Psalm 100:1
\\||//
~~..'~
( \ ) Oh God, you are my God
\ c/ And I will ever praise You.
__\/__
/ \ I will seek you in the morning
_< . _ \ And I will learn to walk in your ways
\`\ \-'/ \ \ ,,,_ And Step by Step you lead me..
>|""O[|||||nn[:::< And I will follow you all of my days.
/_,---._\ '''~
~ | |
| | | "Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord;
| | | let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
/ /| ) Let us come before Him with thanksgiving
_/_ /_|__|__ and extol Him with music and song."
/ /\ -- Psalm 95:1-2
/___________/ |
\___________\__|
XXXXXXX
X *** X XXXXX
X ***** X XXX XX
XXXX ******* XXX XXXX XX
XX X ****** XXXXXXXXX XX XXX
XX X **** X X** X
X XX XX X X***X
X //XXXX X XXXX
X // X XX
X // X XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX/
X XXX// X X Sleepy ..
>.
X X X X X
X X X X X
X X X X X XX
X X X X X XXX XX
X XXX X X X X X X
X X X XX X XXXX
X X XXXXXXXX\ XX XX X
.-~~\
/ \ _
~x .-~_)_
~x".-~ ~-. " Though your sins are
_ ( / \ _ like scarlet, they
|| T o o Y || shall be as white as
==:l l < ! I;== snow."
\\ \ .__/ / //
\\ ,r"-,___.-'r.// - Isaiah 1:18
}^ \.( ) _.'//.
/ }~Xi--~ // \
Y Y I\ \ " Y
| | |o\ \ |
| l_l Y T |
l "o l_j !
\ /
___,.---^. o .^---.._____
"~~~ " ~ ~~~"
I Wish You Jesus
I could wish you joy and peace to last a whole life long,
I could wish you sunshine or a cheerful little song;
Or wish you all the happiness that this life could bring,
But I wish you Jesus, but I wish you Jesus,
But I wish you Jesus, more than anything.
I could wish you leaves of gold and may your path be smooth,
I could wish you treasures or that all your dreams come true;
And I could wish you paradise that every day be Spring,
But I wish you Jesus, but I wish you Jesus,
'Cause when I wish you Jesus, I've wished you everything.
'Cause when I wish you Jesus, I've wished you everything.
__
` ` .^o ~\ ` ` ` `
`` ` Y /'~) } _____ ` `` `
` l/ / / ,-~ ~~--.,_ ` ` ``
` ` ( ( / ~-._ ^.
`` ` \ "--'--. "-._ \ ` `
` ` "-.________ ~--.,__ ^. `
` ` \"~r-.,___.-'-. ^.
` ` ` YI \\ ~-.\ ` `
` ` || \\ `\
` ` || // ` Be on your guard; stand firm
` ` || // on the faith; be men of
` ` ` () // courage; be strong.
` ` || // ` `
` || ( c ` 1 Corinthians 16:3
` ___._ __ ___I|__`--__._ __ _
"~ ~ "~ "" ~~" ~ ~~
=================*
================* *
* *
==============* *
=============* *
* *
************ **************
#* *
###* * "The Lord is my
#####* * Strength and Shield;
#######* * my heart trusts in him,
#########* * and I am helped."
########* * - Psalm 28:7
#######* * *
######* * * *
#####* * * *
####* * * *
###** **
_
_| |
_| | |
| | | | "I have learned the secret of being
| | | | __ content in any and every situation,
| | | |/ \ whether well fed or hungry,
| /\ \ whether in plenty or in want.
| / \/ I can do everything through him
| \ /\ who gives me strength."
| \/ /
\ / -Phillipians 4:12-13
| /
| |
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
"Reckless words pierce like a sword,
/() but the tongue of the wise brings healing. "
/ /
/ / - Proverbs 12:18
/============| |------------------------------------------,
{=| / / / / / /|()} } } } >
\============| |------------------------------------------'
\ \
\ \
\()
, ,
/( )`
\ \___ / |
/- _ `-/ '
"No temptation has (/\/ \ \ /\
seized you except what / / | ` \
is common to man. O O ) / |
And God is faithful; he will `-^--'`< '
not let you be tempted (_.) _ ) /
beyond what you `.___/` /
can bear. `-----' /
But when you <----. __ / __ \
are tempted, he <----|====O)))==) \) /====
will also provide <----' `--' `.__,' \
a way out so | |
that you can stand up \ /
under it." ______( (_ / \______
,' ,-----' | \
-- 1Cor 10:13 `--{__________) \/
..........................................................................
____
---| ___ "My soul waits for the Lord,
\/ /| \/ /___\ more than watchmen wait for
/ |\ |___| the morning,
/ | \ \/ |___| more than watchmen wait for
/ || \ | | the morning. "
/ | | \ | |
/ | | \ | | - Psalm 130:6
/ | | \ | |_____
/ || \ | | \
/ / \ | |______\
/________/ \ | | _ |
________/__________--/ __|___|_|_|__|__
~~~ \___________________/
~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~
__ooooooooo__
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOO* *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOO** **OOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOo oOOOOOOOOOOOOoOoOoOoOoOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
oOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOo
oOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOo
*OOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOO*
*OOOOOO *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* OOOOOO*
*OOOOOO *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* OOOOOO*
*OOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOO*
*OOOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOOO*
*OOOOOOOOo *OOOOOOOOOOO* oOOOOOOOO*
*OOOOOOOOo oOOOOOOOO* "Hang in there...
*OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO* You're Going To Make It!"
""ooooooooo""
, ,
/'`\ /|\
,' : `\ , /' | `\
.' : `/| /| /' /' |
._ | `\ |'|/'//' | | ,
`\`-\ | |/' |'| `\ |/|
/`\_`-,_|_-'_,-'/| `\,/'/'
|/~~~~~~\ /'~ /' `\___-~/_,'
Y `~`~\_Y ~~~
`\/ |_
_______ -`,/ \/'
_/~~ \ ~\ | /' "The grass withers
/' ~/~~~~~\| `~\ _.' _/'\ and the flowers fall,
/'_/~| /'~`\ |\ |_ | but the Word of God
|/~_/~~~\/' `\ | `\| /'\ stands forever."
|/' `\ /~~~~`\____\'
`~'\___ _/__,-| -- Isaiah 40:8
~~' -|_
|
And in all this the Lord is Good...
Be thankful your alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope that you enjoyed this message, I'd like to ask you a
question now:
"If you were to die today,
would you go to Heaven?"
Your Brother in Christ,
Shad
Shad S. Purcell
Tom Medwin
> *Many years ago I set out to find the answer to this question, but I
couldn't decide how to find an objective answer. Then I read a story
about a China man who found one page of the Bible, the last page of
Mark's gospel where it talked about laying hand on the sick in Jesus'
name, praying in tongues, casting out demons, etc. It seems he went back
to his village and began laying hands on sick people in his town. While
not everyone got healed, enough did so that he became a believer in
Jesus Christ. So I decided to do the same. I was being transferred
form the school where I worked, so I nothing to lose. I prayed with
three people. One had cancer, one had glaucoma, and one could not
conceive a child. I prayed like I was an evangelist, in Jesus name,
believing they would be healed, like it says in the Bible. The one
with cancer died, the one with glaucoma went to her doctor three times
and each time he could not find any evidence of the disease, the only
time in his career this had happened, and the woman who couldn't
conceive a child not only had a baby but it was born on my birthday. You
have not idea how freaked out I was, and still am. So if you haven't
tried it don't knock it.
Darkside
Hi aShad S. Purcell wrote:
>
> From spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Thu Jun 20 15:48:34 1996
> Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:48:33 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> Subject: God Loves You
> Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> Status: RO
> X-Status:
>
> |===========================================================================|
Dear Village Wacko:
I have warned you once with a private email. I WILL solve this problem. If you
don't keep your items in their proper place - Imagine if i started posting Priests doing
sheep and women with dogs or something as repulsive to your twisted mind as I find your
Jesus myth??? Hmm. The Communications Decency Act is DEAD!!!! I could blast away with
relative impunity. That in essense is what you are doing. Stop acting like an equine
backside and keep your religion in it's place.
PS: Would you like you name address and home phone posted on this group for all
to see??? Change servers... I can and will find you... Cut the crap or face the
inevitable persecution. You are WASTING BANDWITH... (That to me is like someone taking a
dump on one of your precious preachers heads).
I'm sure somebody lives close enough to adjust your attitude.
-Darkside
Stan Kalisch III
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, Darkside wrote:
> Path: nntp.crl.com!news.PBI.net!news.netvoyage.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.intellinet.com!news-...@intellinet.com
> From: Darkside <an63...@anon.penet.fi>
> Newsgroups: alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.censorship,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.culture.internet,alt.magick,alt.nuke.the.USA,alt.pagan,alt.psychoative,alt.religion.scientology,alt.rock-n-roll,alt.satanism,alt.skinheads,alt.society.anarchy,alt.zen,rec.music.christian
> Subject: Re: God Loves You
> Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 00:31:40 -0500
> Organization: Milliways - The Restaurant at the End of The Universe....
> Lines: 29
> Message-ID: <31CA33...@anon.penet.fi>
> References: <-19039604...@iynx.esnet.com> <N.053196....@lpm6s9.intrstar.net> <4p7cm9$t...@mailer.mda.ca> <4pb9h4$m...@gunmetal.starway.net.au> <4pkb99$s...@e4.empirenet.com> <31C52C...@instanet.com> <cd000345-180...@ip45.tampa.fl.interramp.com> <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> NNTP-Posting-Host: 207.13.34.21
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01Gold (Win95; I)
> To: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> Xref: nntp.crl.com alt.2600:217349 alt.atheism:282619 alt.bible.prophecy:39439 alt.censorship:118250 alt.christnet:133810 alt.christnet.bible:72622 alt.culture.internet:28217 alt.magick:74911 alt.nuke.the.USA:86912 alt.pagan:150316 alt.religion.scientology:215223 alt.rock-n-roll:56561 alt.satanism:48574 alt.skinheads:74075 alt.society.anarchy:42223 alt.zen:40928 rec.music.christian:146458
>
> Hi aShad S. Purcell wrote:
> >
> > From spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Thu Jun 20 15:48:34 1996
> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:48:33 -0500 (CDT)
> > From: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> > Subject: God Loves You
> > Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
> > Status: RO
> > X-Status:
> >
> > |===========================================================================|
>
> Dear Village Wacko:
>
> I have warned you once with a private email. I WILL solve this problem. If you
> don't keep your items in their proper place - Imagine if i started posting Priests doing
> sheep and women with dogs or something as repulsive to your twisted mind as I find your
> Jesus myth??? Hmm. The Communications Decency Act is DEAD!!!!
But not other federal laws, which you may be violating below:
> I could blast away with
> relative impunity. That in essense is what you are doing. Stop acting like an equine
> backside and keep your religion in it's place.
> PS: Would you like you name address and home phone posted on this group for all
> to see??? Change servers... I can and will find you... Cut the crap or face the
> inevitable persecution. You are WASTING BANDWITH... (That to me is like someone taking a
> dump on one of your precious preachers heads).
> I'm sure somebody lives close enough to adjust your attitude.
>
> -Darkside
>
You are a moron to believe that this kind of extremist language will help
you achieve anything substantial. Just as many Christians are when they
themselves become hyperbolic and extremist.
[Please make followups to news.admin.net-abuse.misc .]
Stan
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http://www.crl.com/~sjkiii/PGP.Current_Public_Key
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Nightblade
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>, "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
>From spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Thu Jun 20 15:48:34 1996
>Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:48:33 -0500 (CDT)
>From: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
>Subject: God Loves You
>Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
>Status: RO
>X-Status:
>
[----CUT-------------------------------------------]
>
>And in all this the Lord is Good...
>Be thankful your alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I hope that you enjoyed this message, I'd like to ask you a
> question now:
> "If you were to die today,
> would you go to Heaven?"
>
> Your Brother in Christ,
> Shad
Nice ascii artwork, but this message does NOT belong in alt.2600. Please take
your JesusSpam elsewhere.
-nightblade
ni...@megsinet.net
http://www.svs.com/users/mcps/
Michael Grello
In article <31CA33...@anon.penet.fi>, Darkside <an63...@anon.penet.fi> writes:
|> Hi aShad S. Purcell wrote:
|> >
|> > From spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu Thu Jun 20 15:48:34 1996
|> > Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 15:48:33 -0500 (CDT)
|> > From: "Shad S. Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
|> > Subject: God Loves You
|> > Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
|> > MIME-Version: 1.0
|> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
|> > Status: RO
|> > X-Status:
|> >
|>
|> Dear Village Wacko:
|>
|> I have warned you once with a private email. I WILL solve this problem. If you
|> don't keep your items in their proper place - Imagine if i started posting Priests doing
|> sheep and women with dogs or something as repulsive to your twisted mind as I find your
|> backside and keep your religion in it's place.
|> PS: Would you like you name address and home phone posted on this group for all
|> to see??? Change servers... I can and will find you... Cut the crap or face the
|> inevitable persecution. You are WASTING BANDWITH... (That to me is like someone taking a
|> dump on one of your precious preachers heads).
|> I'm sure somebody lives close enough to adjust your attitude.
|>
|> -Darkside
I have taken Shad to task about this, as you can see. But this doesn't begin
to excuse YOUR behavior. Were you as offended when the filth that has been
filling our newsgroups was dumped on us? Shad was certainly mislead, but meant
well, the crap we get from your neck of the woods is just plain ugly and hateful.
Crawl back under your rock. And, be warned, don't take me on, not all christians
were born in the vestibule of a baptist church. You may e-mail anything you like,
what you get back will cause nightmares for months to come. It takes more than a
spooky name (and an anon loging) to be fightening, kid.
BTW - do come if you are heavy laiden and need rest.
hug a commie for Christ,
Mike <--- the last Jesus freak
voice of the religious LEFT
http://www.scsn.net/users/mgrello/
e-mail:mgr...@scsn.net
Rev. Christine Papazian
George C. Lindauer wrote:
>
> kursiv <kur...@access.ch> writes:
>
> >Hi sabbi
>
> >Answers never are as easy as quoting single bible verses. The
> >reason for doing this lies in the fact that many earnest believers
> >outscope certain thoughts found in the bible. Quoting a verse
> >could help us rethink about statements we never checked in the
> >bible. My experience is that a single verse, as a starting point,
> >often serves as an eye-opener.
>
> Good point...
Yup, just like this one, You see, "God" had said that his followers, were to attack and
take over the town of Canaan, but, there were people that went to investigate this land
that "God" was speaking of. When they found out that there were other people living
there, <ie: Amalekites, Hittites, Jubusites, Amorites, and Canaanites> and that they
would not be able to conquer them, so they complained about what "God" asked them to
do... "God" got angry with them, and came down on a cloud, and stood before them, and
said these words. <Numbers 14:32-36>
You will die here in this wlderness. Your children will wander in the wilderness for
fourty years, suffering for your unfaithfulness, untill the last one of you dies. You
will suffer the consequences of your sin for fourty years, one year for each of the
forty days you spent exploring the land. You will know what it means to have me agaisnt
you! I swear that will do this to you wicked people who have gathered together agaisnt
me. Here in the wilderness every one of you will die. I, the Lord, have spoken!"
Well well, that sounds really nice. All that condemning, just for investigating a land
that "God" were to send them to. Oh, Im sorry, they didnt get condemned for
investigating, they got condemned for complaining about not being able to kill everyone
in the land. <rolls eyes> I dont know, Id have trouble following a "God" that would make
me kill someone for land. My morals are a bit higher than that.
> >I want to put a question: is it our job to clean God of any
> >responsibility for what is going on?
>
> God, unnlike us, takes responsibility for his own actions and also
> lives through the consequences. There are no courts to absolve him if
> he should do wrong... although many of us would seek the absolution of
> a court even if we did do wrong. Which is where God differs... he doesn't
> try to force us to believe in him by putting laws on his side and trying
> to get us all to follow the laws and punishing us immediately when we
> don't. He lets us do what we want, right or wrong...
Wouldnt that mean that he'd burn in his infamous Hell as well as everyone else?
> Remember that God's own name for himself was 'I m that I am". If you
> want to give him another name... as jesus did when he said there is only
> one good being... that is your business and your responsibility. Not his.
Wow, a statement that I agree with. ie: "Your responsible for your own actions"
smile
> And in all this the Lord is Good...
> Be thankful your alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> I hope that you enjoyed this message, I'd like to ask you a
> question now:
> "If you were to die today,
> would you go to Heaven?"
>
> Your Brother in Christ,
> Shad
>
>
I am in a satanist news group not a christian news group.
I'll skip the profanity and get straight to the point.
I have my beliefs, you have yours. Leave well enough
alone. I don't want to convert you or be your brother.
Don't try to convert me or be my brother. It is
unwanted solicitation.
Thank you,
dead, but dreaming(as usual)
P.S. No, I would not. Nor would I want to.
Larry Laird
Why then after all this praying for a select few do you not pray as an
evalngelist for all of mankind. Robertson has been doing that for years and
cancer remains.
Question? Do those who are being prayed for have to believe? I have been a
public atheist for 25 years. Many christians have 'prayed'(preyed) for me
and I am still a quite healthy atheist. I know these people did not pray for
my health or well being. Probably for my conversion.
Question? Was the gal who couldn't become pregnant married? If not you made
her to sin. (ha)
Question? What do you know of glaucoma? Look up acute angle closure
glaucoma. You'll find that after treatment the process is undetectable. So
much for miracles. You have only to thank science.
As far as not knocking it till you tried it.. You have got to visit the
inner city and see how much prayer has helped these poor christians. Their
still in the ghetto in spite of all prayers. So please kep your prayers to
yourself as your Christ said to do in Matthew.
hchuman
In article
<Pine.SOL.3.91.960620...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>, "Shad S.
Purcell" <spur...@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu> wrote:
> abunch of bible quotes and pictures (bypassed to save bytes)
> Your Brother in Christ,
> Shad
Jesus was a communist, read Luke 3:11.
p.s. neat pictures.
Thomas Hrouda
FYI: To Shad. If I died today I would hope to go to Valhalla. That way
I could spend eternity drinking the best wine, eating the best roast pork
and lamb, fighting the the good fight, and making love to seriously
stacked Valkyries.
What do you get to do in heaven?
Tom
> > And in all this the Lord is Good...
> > Be thankful your alive!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> >
> > I hope that you enjoyed this message, I'd like to ask you a
> > question now:
> > "If you were to die today,
> > would you go to Heaven?"
> >
> > Your Brother in Christ,
> > Shad
> >
>
>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Sacrifice does not mean the rejection of the worthless, but of the
precious. Sacrifice is not the rejection of evil for the sake of good,
but the rejection of good for the sake of evil. Sacrifice is the
surrender of what you value for that what you don't. If you give up
something good for something better, it is not sacrifice.
Tom Hrouda
tghr...@ucdavis.edu
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Mandrake .....the Bard
Gee, dude, absolutely fascinating. But, you've made a serious mistake here.
You're crossposting this christian stuff into the "alt.pagan" newsgroup where
it does not belong. I'm sure we'll all get along alot better if you show a bit
of consideration and keep this christian stuff out of our newsgroup. Thank you
very much, and *goodbye*.
Mandrake .....the Bard
In article <31C977...@yrkpa.kias.com>, Tom Medwin <tm...@yrkpa.kias.com>
wrote:
Philip Lysen
> If God is All-Powerful, then God has the Power to wonder
> if God is All-Powerful.
>
> This is, of course, inaccurate.
>
>
> --Russell Smith
>
> Necessity.
----
Is This REALLY true¿¿??
-=>Phi<=-
Elektroniktekniker Philip Lysen
Email: phi...@image.dk
Hompage:http://www.image.dk/~philip
Alex Matulich 03T1
[posted and emailed]
Darkside <an63...@anon.penet.fi> wrote:
> I have warned you once with a private email. I WILL solve this problem.
>If you
>don't keep your items in their proper place - Imagine if i started posting Pri
>ests doing
>sheep and women with dogs or something as repulsive to your twisted mind as I
>find your
Another Netscape user. It's not your fault (it's Netscape's) but would
you please, in the future, to format your articles so they fit within 80
columns? Don't stretch out your editor window to be wider, or Netscape
will end up posting your article that way, which makes it difficult to
read for others.
Thanks.
--
/|
Alex Matulich __. __=#|| ___ _o--
matu...@marlin.navsea.navy.mil ____##_/_____|==###===###____
\____________________________\
Michael Grello
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.96062...@rocky.ucdavis.edu>, Thomas Hrouda <ez05...@peseta.ucdavis.edu> writes:
|>
|> FYI: To Shad. If I died today I would hope to go to Valhalla. That way
|> I could spend eternity drinking the best wine, eating the best roast pork
|> and lamb, fighting the the good fight, and making love to seriously
|> stacked Valkyries.
|> What do you get to do in heaven?
|>
|> Tom
|>
|>
question, so I'll paraphrase -- It'd blow your mind!!!
Though I imagine good food, good drink, awesome challenges and making love to
my very own, eternally bonded, seriously stacked soulmate (tryin' dem pages
in the kama sutra dat we don't have the stamina for now), would be a good start.
I personally want to try my hand at tweeking the laws of physics on a universe
wide level, and, and... it boggles the imagination.
Oh, (giggle) I see, you thought we was gonna sit around playing harps!!
Silly Tom.
Albert Isham
So you believe in magic. Sounds dumb to me but if that floats your boat
. . . .
Sun
Jesus and Ghod were seriously misquoted by the sinners who wrote the
bibble.
I can just tell.
Thomas Hrouda
On Sun, 23 Jun 1996, Michael Grello wrote:
> I personally want to try my hand at tweeking the laws of physics on a universe
> wide level, and, and... it boggles the imagination.
Tweeking the laws of physics, this should be interesting. Explain,
Explain, I give you the temporary right to try and convert me... but it
better be good..... We don't like your kind around here, boy.
P.S. Don't need to waste space excerpting bible passages, just give me
the cites, I got one of them silly little mythological story books
propping up my desk.
>
> Oh, (giggle) I see, you thought we was gonna sit around playing harps!!
> Silly Tom.
>
> hug a commie for Christ,
> Mike <--- the last Jesus freak
> voice of the religious LEFT
> http://www.scsn.net/users/mgrello/
> e-mail:mgr...@scsn.net
>
>
>
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"Sacrifice does not mean the rejection of the worthless, but of the
precious. Sacrifice is not the rejection of evil for the sake of good,
but the rejection of good for the sake of evil. Sacrifice is the
surrender of what you value for that what you don't. If you give up
something good for something better, it is not sacrifice.
Tom Hrouda
tghr...@ucdavis.edu
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *