Re: Why is there no biblical Creed to follow in order to be a Born Again Believer?

[The Doctor]

In article <tdmu2r$1a63m$1...@dont-email.me>,
Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> wrote:
>There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>
>Why is that?
>

Exactly!!
--
Member - Liberal International This is doc...@nk.ca Ici doc...@nk.ca
Yahweh, Queen & country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism https://www.empire.kred/ROOTNK?t=94a1f39b
The fool kicks a yapping puppy, then goes to play with the wolf. -unknown Beware https://mindspring.com

[Michael McLean]

On 19/08/2022 12:55 pm, Dr. Who wrote:
> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>
> Why is that?

Because God didn't put that stuff in there.

Apparently, He didn't find it necessary. However, religious men had to
correct Him! :-).




Michael McLean


--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything He is not first in anything."

"Sin is not what you do, it is what you are."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance of God."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul and mind. An abomination."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence and proof is to be found!!"

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

[P+Barker]

On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

wrote:

>There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>
>Why is that?

They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.

[Noahide]

The Biblical Creed of Christianity is the New Testament as it stands.

[pyotr filipivich]

Robert <no...@none.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:03:57 -0700 typed in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):

>And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>them.

Hmm, and this had nothing at all with the politics / theocracy of
the Roman empire?
--
pyotr filipivich
Monotheism, someone has said, offers two simple axioms:
1) There is a God.
2) It's not you.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:03:57 -0700, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>(in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):
>

>And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>them.

DUHHHH!!!!!
Man has been killing others since the beginning of time.
Try to look up the stpry of Cain and Abel.


>God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.

OK then.
What does He know about you?
Would you like to share with the whole class?

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700

typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.

Yowza! Yet another boldfaced assertion about how "mission
statements" are obviously unbiblical. (Is funny, a previous poster
said the Creed was full of errors and imports from paganism. When
pressed on the issue, it finally came out that he objected to the
phrase "one baptism for the remission of sin" because that he
disagreed with. as the saying goes "It is not _your_ creed, it is The
Church's creed.")
Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
Testament, that the New Testament did all it's growing despite not
having a New Testament to refer to.

But no mater. Now, where did I put that post .... ah yes
"Boilerplate:"

The entire creed has only references to scripture. Here it is
with references inserted in each phrase of it:

I believe in (Romans 10: 8-10; 1 John 4: 15)
One God (Deuteronomy 6: 4, Ephesians 4: 6)
Father (Matthew 6: 9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6: 3)
Creator of heaven and earth, (Genesis 1: 1)
and of all things visible and invisible; (Colossians 1: 15-16)
and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, (Acts 11: 17)
only-begotten Son of God (Matthew 14: 33; 16: 16 / (John 1: 18; 3:
16)
begotten of the Father before all ages; (John 1: 2)
Light of Light (Psalm 27: I; John 8: 12; Matthew 17: 2,5)
true God of true God, (John 17: 1-5)
of one essence with the Father, (John 10: 30)
through Whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1: 1-2)
Who for us and for our salvation (I Timothy 2: 4-5)
came down from the heavens ((John 6: 33,35)
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1: 14)
Crucified for us (Mark 15: 25; I Corinthians 15: 3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 1: 14)
He suffered, (Mark 8: 31)
and was buried; (Luke 23: 53; I Corinthians 15: 4)
Rising on the third day according to the Scriptures, (Luke 24: 1;
1 Cor15: 4)
And ascending into the heavens, (Luke 24: 51; Acts 1: 10)
He is seated at the right hand of the Father; (Mark 16: 19;
Acts 7:55)
And coming again in glory (Matthew 24: 27)
to judge the living and dead, (Acts 10: 42; 2 I Timothy 4: 1)
His kingdom shall have no end; (2 Peter 1: 11)
And in the holy Spirit, (John 14: 26)
Lord (Acts 5: 3-4)
the Giver of life, (Genesis 1: 2)
Who proceeds from the Father, (John 15: 26)
Who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and
glorified, (Matthew 3: 16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20; Ezekiel 11: 5, 13)
In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (I Peter 2: 5, 9)
catholic (Mark 16: 15)
and apostolic Church; (Acts 2: 42; Ephesians 2: 19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; (Ephesians 4:5)
I expect the resurrection of the dead; (John 11: 24; I Cor. 15:12-49)
And the life of the age to come. (Mark 10: 29-30)
Amen. (Psalm 106:48)

Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
the various letters of the early church, the teachings of the Apostles
faithfully taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
others.
>
>Why is that?

The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
in The Church.
The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«

Why was that thought so important?
Because someone influential was teaching something quite
different, namely that Jesus was not co-eternal wit the Father, but
was a created being. The cynical answer is that Constantine called
the council because he was discovering that there was conflict in the
Church he was hoping would unify the Empire. Regardless of why, the
Emperor provided transportation for bishops from "all over the world"
to come and settle this issue. And they _found_ that the consensus of
what they were teaching could be expressed in what is called the
Symbol of The Faith. (It is known as "the Creed" from the first words
in Latin "Credo" - I believe.)

But all that is probably more information than "Dr Who" can
handle.

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 19, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<p200ghhbb0qtbkh48...@4ax.com>):

> Robert <no...@none.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:03:57 -0700 typed in
> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
> > On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
> > (in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):
> >
> > > On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who<dr....@biosphere.orb>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
> > > > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
> > > >
> > > > Why is that?
> > >
> > > They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
> > > when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
> > > that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.
> >
> > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
> > them.
>
> Hmm, and this had nothing at all with the politics / theocracy of
> the Roman empire?

You who proclaim Constantine a saint and an Apostle second to no apostles,
You tell me as it is not found in scripture.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:17:16 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

wrote:

>On Aug 19, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
>(in article<p200ghhbb0qtbkh48...@4ax.com>):
>
>> Robert <no...@none.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:03:57 -0700 typed in
>> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> > On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>> > (in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):
>> >
>> > > On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who<dr....@biosphere.orb>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>> > > > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>> > > >
>> > > > Why is that?
>> > >
>> > > They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
>> > > when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
>> > > that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.
>> >
>> > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>> > them.
>>
>> Hmm, and this had nothing at all with the politics / theocracy of
>> the Roman empire?
>
>You who proclaim Constantine a saint and an Apostle second to no apostles,
>You tell me as it is not found in scripture.

Catholics have not proclaimed Constantine a saint.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:20:16 -0700, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:

>On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote

>(in article<4e00gh52d43a2cvhq...@4ax.com>):

>“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
>children of God:” (Rom 8:16)

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:17:16 -0700
typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the following:

Sigh, another attempt to divert the discussion from the question
asked. I know it is complicated and requires some "thinking outside
the box" of late free format Protestantism, but it can be done.

But no matter, "Dr Who" has his mind firmly made up, that all
others have it wrong and so he need not attend to what they actually
say.

--
For many "I am spiritual, not religious".seems the short form of
"I retain the option to adjust my beliefs to fit my lifestyle,
nor be constrained by prior statements about what I said I believe."

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 20, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<3l32ghlihg7t4i5j2...@4ax.com>):

I just recently posted here in ACC the orthodox article that said he was a
saint, etc. It was posted from your home group as one of their fables. I
noticed that you just chose to ignore the fables I posted which is fully part
of your traditions of men.

You were at one point the leaders of the RCC and fully participated in the
killing of heretics.

[P+Barker]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:52:00 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

Only those who needed killing.

[servant]

Dr. who, aka robert among other names used asked:

>There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>
>Why is that?

Because those creeds do not in and of themselves make one "born again ...

They contain an outline of what christians believe, including how one is
"born again ... of water and spirit". The topics outlined in the creed as
a statement of core items of 2-faith are found in scripture.

Such modern creeds for just about any church or religious group can be
found on their web page. Look for links such as 'what we believe" or
"statement of faith". None of those creeds in that form are found in
scripture either.

Here is part of such a creed from the godfather wof guru kenneth hagin:

Beliefs of Rhema Christian Faith Ministry | Kenneth Hagin Ministry

https://www.rhema.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=138

"THE GODHEAD--Our God is One, but manifested in three Persons--the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being coequal (Deut. 6:4; Phil. 2:6).
God the Father is greater than all; the Sender of the Word (Logos) and
the Begetter (John 14:28; John 16:28; John 1:14). The Son is the Word
flesh-covered, the One Begotten, and has existed with the Father from
the beginning (John 1:1; John 1:18; John 1:14). The Holy Spirit
proceeds forth from both the Father and the Son and is eternal (John
14:16; John 15:26)."

Fyi, the above is a straight restatement of parts of the nicine creed. The
3 person nature of the godhead; the incarnation of Christ among others. -

The last element of HS is revealing about the source of the above creed.
That formulation was adopted in the western church,ie. what about 1000 AD
became what we know as the rcc. The original creed said the HS proceeds
from the Father only, and is still the version used in the eastern
churches.

[pyotr filipivich]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022
18:53:12 +1000 typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>On 19/08/2022 12:55 pm, Dr. Who wrote:
>> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>
>> Why is that?
>
>Because God didn't put that stuff in there.
>
>Apparently, He didn't find it necessary. However, religious men had to
>correct Him! :-).

Ah,

So what exactly is it that do you "believe"? And why should your
statement be considered any more useful than what other "religious
men" had to say?

What I also find amusing are the number of Protestants who follow
the basic pattern of the "primitive" church, albeit with different
emphasis on what's important.

[pyotr filipivich]

P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com> on Sat, 20 Aug 2022 07:49:11 -0400 typed
in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:17:16 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>
>wrote:
>>On Aug 19, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote

>>> Robert <no...@none.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 11:03:57 -0700 typed in
>>> alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>> > On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote

>>> > > On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who<dr....@biosphere.orb>
>>> > > wrote:
>>> > > > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>>> > > > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Why is that?
>>> > >
>>> > > They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
>>> > > when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
>>> > > that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.
>>> >
>>> > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>>> > them.
>>>
>>> Hmm, and this had nothing at all with the politics / theocracy of
>>> the Roman empire?
>>
>>You who proclaim Constantine a saint and an Apostle second to no apostles,
>>You tell me as it is not found in scripture.
>
>Catholics have not proclaimed Constantine a saint.

Constantine, for better or worse, was proclaimed a saint long
before the schism. The Romans may not have him in the Calendar
anymore, but so what?

Protestants don't have any saints. No cloud of witnesses, no
examples of those who fought the good fight and ran the race before
them. Does relieve them of a lot of pressure when it comes to leading
a godly life, eh no?

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 20, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<os82gh1jdos0989lq...@4ax.com>):

Which was ungodly.

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 20, 2022, servant wrote
(in article<63013556$0$2259$1c46...@news.club.cc.cmu.edu>):

> Dr. who, aka robert among other names used asked:
>
> > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
> > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
> >
> > Why is that?
>
> Because those creeds do not in and of themselves make one "born again ...

That is correct, it cannot make a person Born of God. Those creeds at one
point determined who lived and died and were a requirement in order to belong
to a religious organization. A standard for judging who lives of dies
according to self righteous religious people.

ST PETER WILL NOT be asking you to pass a creed tests in order to get into
heaven.

>
>
> They contain an outline of what christians believe, including how one is
> "born again ... of water and spirit". The topics outlined in the creed as
> a statement of core items of 2-faith are found in scripture.

Wrong, they are made up of religious men, some who claim to be christian yet
molest children, rape women or practice homosexuality.

>
>
> Such modern creeds for just about any church or religious group can be
> found on their web page. Look for links such as 'what we believe" or
> "statement of faith". None of those creeds in that form are found in
> scripture either.

Every few of which recite a creed in a church service because they know it
has nothing to do with any access into heaven.

God judges from the thoughts and intents of the heart

A creed is not a fact. It is a fact, however, that a person much be born
again in order to access heaven.

>
>
> Here is part of such a creed from the godfather wof guru kenneth hagin:

His "creed" as you try and put it, is not one for the requirements of
Salvation, nor gaining access into heaven.

[Michael McLean]

On 21/08/2022 8:05 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022
> 18:53:12 +1000 typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> On 19/08/2022 12:55 pm, Dr. Who wrote:
>>> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>>> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>>
>>> Why is that?
>>
>> Because God didn't put that stuff in there.
>>
>> Apparently, He didn't find it necessary. However, religious men had to
>> correct Him! :-).
>
> Ah,
>
> So what exactly is it that do you "believe"? And why should your
> statement be considered any more useful than what other "religious
> men" had to say?

All I have stated, really, is that there was no apostle's creed and
Nicene creed required or it would have been written word for word in the
scriptures.

Have I sinned in thine sight?

>
> What I also find amusing are the number of Protestants who follow
> the basic pattern of the "primitive" church, albeit with different
> emphasis on what's important.

Not my problem.

[P+Barker]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 18:59:13 +1000, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 21/08/2022 8:05 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022
>> 18:53:12 +1000 typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>> On 19/08/2022 12:55 pm, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>>>> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>>>
>>>> Why is that?
>>>
>>> Because God didn't put that stuff in there.
>>>
>>> Apparently, He didn't find it necessary. However, religious men had to
>>> correct Him! :-).
>>
>> Ah,
>>
>> So what exactly is it that do you "believe"? And why should your
>> statement be considered any more useful than what other "religious
>> men" had to say?
>
>All I have stated, really, is that there was no apostle's creed and
>Nicene creed required or it would have been written word for word in the
>scriptures.

When the club was small, there was no need for a creed.
Once dorks started to feel they needed power, they would make up shit
and try to peel off the believers who were weak.
If you want to be a member of the original club, there are certain
things you must believe. Otherwise, go start your own church. Just
don't call it catholic.

[P+Barker]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 16:47:17 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

Really?
Are you trying to claim that God didn't kill those who needed killing?

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 21, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<14d4ghd0po5v74mc6...@4ax.com>):

What does God say about that?

Joh 3:17-18

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the
world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is
condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.

If you kill a man in his sin, before his appointed time, there remains no
more opportunity to be Born Again. God stated his purpose well in these
verses. Religions who opposed the will of God in these matters were guilty of
murder. They were definitely not operating in Love.

[P+Barker]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> wrote:

>On Aug 21, 2022, P+Barker wrote

>> > > > You were at one point the leaders of the RCC and fully participated in the
>> > > > killing of heretics.
>> > >
>> > > Only those who needed killing.
>> >
>> > Which was ungodly.
>>
>> Really?
>> Are you trying to claim that God didn't kill those who needed killing?
>
>What does God say about that?
>Joh 3:17-18

God is recorded in the Bible as having personally killed a large
number of people.[note 1] While the majority of the divine
assassinations certainly took place during God's time as the
notoriously vengeful deity in the Old Testament, a few instances are
also recorded in the (just slightly) more peaceful New Testament.

The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah
Lot’s wife.
The firstborn of Egypt.
The Egyptian army.
Undisclosed number of Ammorites.
20 million - In the global flood:
185,000 - Assyrian soldiers killed while sleeping.

[Michael McLean]

I am not interested in the ways and methods of man, Patrick. They
always end up in crap.

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 21, 2022, P+Barker wrote

(in article<al95ghd90jot2qnpn...@4ax.com>):

Why are you telling me this? So that I will know that you do not believe in
Jesus? Why snip out the verses like the other heathens do and pretend your
religion is correct? God did not send his son to condemn the world at this
time.

God is NOT the RCC or any relationship to it. The RCC was not authorized to
kill heretics any more than Islam when killing others who oppose their
beliefs.

[P+Barker]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2022 15:56:40 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

Stop moving the goalpost.
You CLAIMED: You were at one point the leaders of the RCC and fully

participated in the killing of heretics.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Only those who needed killing.
>> > > >
>> > > > Which was ungodly.

Was God ungodly?
I didn't hear you.

[P+Barker]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2022 08:50:48 +1000, Michael McLean

Then don't ask stupid questions about why a creed was created.

[Michael McLean]

I didn't ask any.

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Sat, 20 Aug 2022 10:52:00 -0700

And here is the question which "Dr Who" like so many before him,
seem unable to grasp.
] Hmm, and this had nothing at all with the politics / theocracy of
] the Roman empire?

At which point, ponce again he goes haring off after things
totally unrelated to that question.

>
>You were at one point the leaders of the RCC and fully participated in the
>killing of heretics.

Poor "Dr Who" - still conflating his chick tract / Dan brown
propaganda with history.

Oh well, the invincibly ignorant got to ignore what they don't
(won't) understand.
--
pyotr
After the war two Army Chaplains were mustering out. The one said to
the other "Chaplain, it has been a real pleasure serving God with you.
You in your way, and I in His."

[pyotr filipivich]

P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com> on Sun, 21 Aug 2022 09:34:42 -0400 typed

Or Orthodox.

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 21, 2022, P+Barker wrote

(in article<bpf5gh1t9uldulb75...@4ax.com>):

Never did that. Too much to drink?

>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Only those who needed killing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Which was ungodly.
>
> Was God ungodly?
> I didn't hear you.

You never hear anyone.

[Dr. Who]

On Aug 21, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<30n5ghlatnst928i7...@4ax.com>):

One of these days you might be able to combine two thoughts together without
one of them being a lie.

[pyotr filipivich]

Robert <no...@none.com> on Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:44:36 -0700 typed in
alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>On Aug 19, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
>(in article<9810gh96n2tr5had8...@4ax.com>):
>
>> Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700

>> typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>> > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>> > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>

>> Yowza! Yet another boldfaced assertion about how "mission
>> statements" are obviously unbiblical. (Is funny, a previous poster
>> said the Creed was full of errors and imports from paganism. When
>> pressed on the issue, it finally came out that he objected to the
>> phrase "one baptism for the remission of sin" because that he
>> disagreed with. as the saying goes "It is not _your_ creed, it is The
>> Church's creed.")
>> Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
>> Testament, that the New Testament did all it's growing despite not
>> having a New Testament to refer to.
>>
>> But no mater. Now, where did I put that post .... ah yes
>> "Boilerplate:"
>>
>> The entire creed has only references to scripture. Here it is
>> with references inserted in each phrase of it:
>
>There is no original creed thus notated. It was all done centuries after the
>fact

Ah yes. I'd forgotten that Robert does believe in anything not a
direct quote from the New Testament.

Nor has he ever been able to provide a short statement of what he
does believe (other than apparently "not whatever the Orthodox or
historic churches believe".).

But then again, Robert's belief system / religion is based on his
interpretation of the New Testament (AV).
>>
>> Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
>> the various letters of the early church, the teachings of the Apostles
>> faithfully taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
>> others.
>
>What "Didache"? TheDidache, also known as the Lord's Teaching Through the
>Twelve Apostles to the Nations, is a brief anonymous early Christian treatise
>written in Koine Greek, written in the first century. The text was lost, but
>it's existence was known through other Early Christian writings. A Greek
>manuscript was discovered in 1873 by Philotheos Bryennios.
>
>Yet people love to be fooled, even though God sent his spirit to confirm the
>teaching of HIS word.

And your point? Aside from the fact that you have rejected
a-priori anything not bound into the KJV edition of the NT?

>> The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
>> in The Church.
>> The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
>> the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
>> of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
>> only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
>> Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
>> essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«
>
>More phony excuses.

LOL. Phoney only to someone who wants to be free to make it up as
he goes. Meh, Robert doesn't believe that there was any "Ancient
Faith" or Apostolic Faith, or any unity of teaching in the New
Testament Church. That frees him up to read his book and make his own
decisions.

>God knows his own and works through them. Many a person
>swore to the Nicene Creed rather than lose their head.

LOL. Robert knows this because ... um, well, it seems to fit his
presumptions.

Oh well, if he wants to believe that Jesus is a created being, or
an "adopted" son of God, not the same essence as the Father, nor
co-equal, well, that is his privilege.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 9, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<qd96kh9g42380bclp...@4ax.com>):

Whether you accept what the Word of God says about being Born Again, and that
by believing, etc., as I have posted from scripture, countless times, is on
you, not me.

Regarding Oaths;

Mat 5:33-37

33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's
throne:

35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is
the city of the great King.

36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair
white or black.

37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more
than these cometh of evil.

That is from the mouth of Jesus.

James spoke this from out Heavenly Father.

Jas 5:12

12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither
by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your
nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

And from human tradition, if a person could not repeat a creed, or spoke a
different creed, it was used to determine heretics who were then dealt with
accordingly per the standards of self righteous men.

>
> > >
> > > Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
> > > the various letters of the early church, the teachings of the Apostles
> > > faithfully taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
> > > others.
> >
> > What "Didache"? TheDidache, also known as the Lord's Teaching Through the
> > Twelve Apostles to the Nations, is a brief anonymous early Christian
> > treatise
> > written in Koine Greek, written in the first century. The text was lost, but
> > it's existence was known through other Early Christian writings. A Greek
> > manuscript was discovered in 1873 by Philotheos Bryennios.
> >
> > Yet people love to be fooled, even though God sent his spirit to confirm the
> > teaching of HIS word.
>
> And your point? Aside from the fact that you have rejected
> a-priori anything not bound into the KJV edition of the NT?

It has nothing to do with the KJV. As there are mistakes in translations in
there also.

>
>
> > > The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
> > > in The Church.
> > > The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
> > > the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
> > > of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
> > > only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
> > > Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
> > > essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«
> >
> > More phony excuses.
>
> LOL. Phoney only to someone who wants to be free to make it up as
> he goes. Meh, Robert doesn't believe that there was any "Ancient
> Faith" or Apostolic Faith, or any unity of teaching in the New
> Testament Church. That frees him up to read his book and make his own
> decisions.

You do realize that what you swear to you are expected by God to fulfill it
to the nth degree or suffer the consequences.

>
>
> > God knows his own and works through them. Many a person
> > swore to the Nicene Creed rather than lose their head.
>
> LOL. Robert knows this because ... um, well, it seems to fit his
> presumptions.
>
> Oh well, if he wants to believe that Jesus is a created being, or
> an "adopted" son of God, not the same essence as the Father, nor
> co-equal, well, that is his privilege.

You Peter are bearing false witness against me, as usual.

[Mattb]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2022 07:50:03 -0400, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

What does God know about any individual? He knows everything about
any of us, God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know.
Patrick Barker you lack faith, is that a core RCC teaching?

> Would you like to share with the whole class?

No person knows what God knows.

[P+Barker]

Do you believe in free will?
What are your thoughts about it and God?

>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>
> No person knows what God knows.

But you just said He knows everything.
It sounds like you know what God knows.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 11, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<uuibkh9m3fa6ldtb2...@4ax.com>):

> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > P+Barker<PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:20:16 -0700, Robert<no...@none.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > DUHHHH!!!!!
> > > > > Man has been killing others since the beginning of time.
> > > > > Try to look up the stpry of Cain and Abel.
> > > > >
> > > > > > God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
> > > > >
> > > > > OK then.
> > > > > What does He know about you?
> > > > > Would you like to share with the whole class?
> > > >
> > > > “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
> > > > children of God:” (Rom 8:16)
> > >
> > > OK then.
> > > What does He know about you?
> >
> > What does God know about any individual? He knows everything about
> > any of us, God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know.
> > Patrick Barker you lack faith, is that a core RCC teaching?
>
> Do you believe in free will?
> What are your thoughts about it and God?

The creed says nothing about that, so how can you claim to believe it?

>
>
> > > Would you like to share with the whole class?
> >
> > No person knows what God knows.
>
> But you just said He knows everything.
> It sounds like you know what God knows.

Do you ever think before you speak?

[P+Barker]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 13:44:25 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>
wrote:

Creed......... Free will...... Two different things.
Spinach...... Niagara Falls...... Two different things.

I don't believe a creed.
I list things that I believe, and this IS the creed.

>> > > Would you like to share with the whole class?
>> >
>> > No person knows what God knows.
>>
>> But you just said He knows everything.
>> It sounds like you know what God knows.
>
>Do you ever think before you speak?

matty says God knows everything. Then he says no person knows what
God knows. Perhaps you could explain this for matty.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 11, 2022, P+Barker wrote

(in article<egobkhh7rlitbl39u...@4ax.com>):

Then you are a hypocrite when you go to Mass.

>
>
> > > > > Would you like to share with the whole class?
> > > >
> > > > No person knows what God knows.
> > >
> > > But you just said He knows everything.
> > > It sounds like you know what God knows.
> >
> > Do you ever think before you speak?
>
> matty says God knows everything. Then he says no person knows what
> God knows. Perhaps you could explain this for matty.

You are the one who needs the understanding, but cannot.

[Mattb]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:05:01 -0400, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:20:16 -0700, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>>>> > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>>>>> > them.
>>>>>
>>>>> DUHHHH!!!!!
>>>>> Man has been killing others since the beginning of time.
>>>>> Try to look up the stpry of Cain and Abel.
>>>>>
>>>>> > God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK then.
>>>>> What does He know about you?
>>>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>>>
>>>>“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
>>>>children of God:” (Rom 8:16)
>>>
>>> OK then.
>>> What does He know about you?
>>
>> What does God know about any individual? He knows everything about
>>any of us, God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know.
>>Patrick Barker you lack faith, is that a core RCC teaching?
>
>Do you believe in free will?

Yes very much so, and yet nothing I have posted suggest otherwise.

>What are your thoughts about it and God?

God gives us freewill, are you suggesting he doesn't?

>
>
>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>
>> No person knows what God knows.
>
>But you just said He knows everything.

What I posted was "He knows everything about
any of us" and that is to the present, of the future he can predict
with some accuracy but not know.

>It sounds like you know what God knows.

No person or Church does the Human brain lacks that ability to hold
such knowledge.

[P+Barker]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 15:18:45 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>

'splain it to me, oh wise one.

[P+Barker]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 18:51:49 -0700, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 11 Oct 2022 16:05:01 -0400, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 19 Aug 2022 16:20:16 -0700, Robert <no...@none.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> > And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
>>>>>> > them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> DUHHHH!!!!!
>>>>>> Man has been killing others since the beginning of time.
>>>>>> Try to look up the stpry of Cain and Abel.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK then.
>>>>>> What does He know about you?
>>>>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>>>>
>>>>>“The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the
>>>>>children of God:” (Rom 8:16)
>>>>
>>>> OK then.
>>>> What does He know about you?
>>>
>>> What does God know about any individual? He knows everything about
>>>any of us, God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know.
>>>Patrick Barker you lack faith, is that a core RCC teaching?
>>
>>Do you believe in free will?
>
> Yes very much so, and yet nothing I have posted suggest otherwise.

If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
God gave us that free will.
God does not force us to do His will.
Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.

>>What are your thoughts about it and God?
>
> God gives us freewill, are you suggesting he doesn't?

If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
God gave us that free will.
God does not force us to do His will.
Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.

>>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>>
>>> No person knows what God knows.
>>
>>But you just said He knows everything.
>
> What I posted was "He knows everything about
>any of us" and that is to the present, of the future he can predict
>with some accuracy but not know.

So.... God does not know everything?

>>It sounds like you know what God knows.
>
> No person or Church does the Human brain lacks that ability to hold
>such knowledge.

Good thought.

[Mattb]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:20:27 -0400, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>

That is true, and the RCC has chosen not to follow Jesus but a
Pagan pedophile, corruption and greed cult. The RCC was founded
around Pagan beliefs with a few words of the Bible mixed in a true
Universal Church.

>God gave us that free will.

True or we always had it.

>God does not force us to do His will.

Also true.

>Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.

That isn't what I said. I said "He knows everything about any of
us, God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know", you are
again using your fundamentalism and changing what was said with
calumny, with disinformation.

>
>
>>>What are your thoughts about it and God?
>>
>> God gives us freewill, are you suggesting he doesn't?
>
>If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
>God gave us that free will.
>God does not force us to do His will.
>Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.

This is a repeat and was answered above.

>
>
>
>
>>>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>>>
>>>> No person knows what God knows.
>>>
>>>But you just said He knows everything.
>>
>> What I posted was "He knows everything about
>>any of us" and that is to the present, of the future he can predict
>>with some accuracy but not know.
>
>So.... God does not know everything?

OK Then I will rephrase it for my low IQ fundamentalist Catholic
lets try this 'He knows everything about any of us to the present day,
God knows more about any of us than we ourselves know'

There even Patrick Barker should be able to understand that.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 12, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<0hfdkhh4huv0t2gnv...@4ax.com>):

When you have ears to hear.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 12, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<mifdkhdev32u73tph...@4ax.com>):

He does, he knows the hearts and thoughts of man.

[P+Barker]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 09:58:52 -0700, Mattb <trdel...@gmail.com>

Speak for yourself, ass wipe.
Are you going to be in Concrete the next few days?
Don't bother answering me.
I don't care.
I'm going on vacation.

[P+Barker]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 10:45:48 -0700, Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb>
wrote:

Then why did He give us a free will?
Did God know adam and eve would sin?
If so, why play games about it?
You are starting to sound like that dude who believes in
predestination again. Think about this for a while.
Then get back to me in a few weeks.
I'll be visiting old friends.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 12, 2022, P+Barker wrote

(in article<pcdekhhr3scn1b1d1...@4ax.com>):

Race Car Drivers have free will. From their behaviors on the track and given
the performance of their cars, and knowing their past performances in similar
instances there is a high likelihood that an intelligent person can determine
who will win.

In a war, a sniper gets to know his target and their habits, styles, etc.
Each has free will. The sniper will predetermine the targets location and tag
him on the first shot. Both had freewill.

Your wife knows when you are going to take a dump., did she predestinate you?

[Michael McLean]

He does know, but you still have a free will to believe or not believe.
And it is not contingent on good and evil...a bit of the thing the Lord
is showing me at the moment.

>
>
>
>
>>>>> Would you like to share with the whole class?
>>>>
>>>> No person knows what God knows.
>>>
>>> But you just said He knows everything.
>>
>> What I posted was "He knows everything about
>> any of us" and that is to the present, of the future he can predict
>> with some accuracy but not know.
>
> So.... God does not know everything?

Yes, or He wouldn't be God. Plus, He is everything.

Rom_11:36  For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to
whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Believe, Patrick, beeeeellllllliiiiieeeeevvvvvveeee. Catholics need to
put Catholicism aside, and Protestants need to put Protestantism aside.

And believe!





Michael McLean

>
>
>
>>> It sounds like you know what God knows.
>>
>> No person or Church does the Human brain lacks that ability to hold
>> such knowledge.
>
> Good thought.

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time."

[P+Barker]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> wrote:


>> > > If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
>> > > God gave us that free will.
>> > > God does not force us to do His will.
>> > > Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.
>> >
>> > He does, he knows the hearts and thoughts of man.
>>
>> Then why did He give us a free will?
>> Did God know adam and eve would sin?
>> If so, why play games about it?
>> You are starting to sound like that dude who believes in
>> predestination again. Think about this for a while.
>> Then get back to me in a few weeks.
>> I'll be visiting old friends.
>
>Race Car Drivers have free will. From their behaviors on the track and given
>the performance of their cars, and knowing their past performances in similar
>instances there is a high likelihood that an intelligent person can determine
>who will win.

But you and calvin say that God already knows.

>In a war, a sniper gets to know his target and their habits, styles, etc.
>Each has free will. The sniper will predetermine the targets location and tag
>him on the first shot. Both had freewill.

But you and calvin say that God already knows.

>Your wife knows when you are going to take a dump., did she predestinate you?

Does she?

[P+Barker]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 13/10/2022 12:20 am, P+Barker wrote:


>>>> What are your thoughts about it and God?
>>>
>>> God gives us freewill, are you suggesting he doesn't?
>>
>> If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
>> God gave us that free will.
>> God does not force us to do His will.
>> Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.
>
>He does know, but you still have a free will to believe or not believe.
>And it is not contingent on good and evil...a bit of the thing the Lord
>is showing me at the moment.

Believe and performance are two different things, calvin.

>> So.... God does not know everything?
>
>Yes, or He wouldn't be God. Plus, He is everything.

Then what are we doing here on earth?
Performing a play for some dude?
He already knows the answer, right, calvin?

[Mattb]

On Wed, 12 Oct 2022 17:45:48 -0400, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>

I will not be "in Concrete" but will be at home most the time.
Taking advantage of the good weather and setting up for winter. Might
fly to the Islands also.

>Don't bother answering me.
>I don't care.

Then why did you ask? You are predictable. Maybe I can watch your
ship go by from out on the Islands.

Patrick Barker you aren't planning on coming to Washington State to
do a little domestic terrorism are you? You are racist and a
fundamentalist.

[Dr. Who]

On Oct 13, 2022, P+Barker wrote
(in article<mavfkhtgv8p87r9io...@4ax.com>):

You know nothing of Calvin, Like most people hear you only have hearsay to go
on as evidenced by your ignorance,

[Michael McLean]

On 13/10/2022 11:02 pm, P+Barker wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 13/10/2022 12:20 am, P+Barker wrote:
>
>
>>>>> What are your thoughts about it and God?
>>>>
>>>> God gives us freewill, are you suggesting he doesn't?
>>>
>>> If we have free will, we then can choose to follow God .... or not.
>>> God gave us that free will.
>>> God does not force us to do His will.
>>> Yet, you seem to think God knows exactly what we will do.
>>
>> He does know, but you still have a free will to believe or not believe.
>> And it is not contingent on good and evil...a bit of the thing the Lord
>> is showing me at the moment.
>
> Believe and performance are two different things, calvin.

Not to me. Everything is a belief.

By the way, did Calvin believe that? :-).

>>> So.... God does not know everything?
>>
>> Yes, or He wouldn't be God. Plus, He is everything.
>
> Then what are we doing here on earth?

Some of us have become family, some are becoming family.

> Performing a play for some dude?

That is not God's choice.

> He already knows the answer, right, calvin?

God knows everything, or He would not be God.

Yet, you have a choice.

Not that difficult for a Catholic, right, Pope Patrick the 1st?




Michael McLean

[Michael McLean]

On 14/10/2022 9:56 am, Ollie Smth wrote:
> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 7:07:10 PM UTC+11, Michael McLean wrote:
>> On 13/10/2022 3:18 pm, Ollie Smth wrote:
>>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 2:21:30 PM UTC+11, Michael McLean wrote:
>>>> On 13/10/2022 2:16 pm, Ollie Smth wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 12:20:32 PM UTC+11, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2022, Ollie Smth wrote
>>>>>> (in article<b1333b77-7c60-4092...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>> On Thursday, October 13, 2022 at 11:23:52 AM UTC+11, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2022, Ollie Smth wrote
>>>>>>>> (in article<48f6b2ff-01b5-4046...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 12, 2022 at 12:04:10 PM UTC+11, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 11, 2022, Ollie Smth wrote
>>>>>>>>>> (in article<e942f81d-c5c9-407e...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 2:35:05 PM UTC+11, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2022, Ollie Smth wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>> (in article<4c51bd09-0503-422e...@googlegroups.com>):
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2022 at 9:09:52 AM UTC+11, Dr. Who wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2022, pyotr filipivich wrote
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (in article<f109khl5r8k7m9s3j...@4ax.com>):
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Sun, 09 Oct 2022 18:16:34 -0700

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can think of three that may be regarded as creeds [statements
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> belief]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet a creed salvation does not bring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul does say "By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." 1Co 15:2
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No creed is mentioned nor inferred there. It speaks of the Gospel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jesus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> brought to the world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And once again. poor Robert asks for help.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He did say, "You must be born again." Is that a creed? Or a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> commandment
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Lord.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes "You must be born again" is a commandment.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do Robert believe it? Then it is a "credo", something one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it necessary to believe that it is a commandment which one must
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> follow? If so, then it is a "dogma" of ones religion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Is it a command of the Lord, or a decree of a religion?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What value does latin add to anything here?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The real question is: what does Robert believe? And specifically,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can he encapsulate those beliefs into a short statement, a.k.a. "a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creed"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To you, perhaps, and that seems to be your focus.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To me it is the Lord and what He teaches.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apparently understanding the difference between "things commanded of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God" and a "List of things commanded by God" just too confusing. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think he gets stuck on the word "creed" which comes form the Latin
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Credo' - "I believe".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Shifting the goal posts. Again?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A creed is designed and authored by man. It is something that many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pledge
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on their honor. They swear to it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Absolutley not!
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a statement of core beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A reminder of what we believe.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> A public declaration.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> When this is read at my church, it follows the question "what do we
>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe?"
>>>>>>>>>>>> And when it was written it was used to judge if a person believed what
>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>> did, and if not they were called a heretic and dealt with accordingly.
>>>>>>>>>>>> They
>>>>>>>>>>>> had to be able to quote it, like you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OK. Please cite primary source material that supports that POV, say, for
>>>>>>>>> example, the Apostle's Creed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Otherwise, that claim may be misleading.
>>>>>>>> Do you really believe that the Apostles creed would speak of how the Nicene
>>>>>>>> Creed was used to determine heretics and the murdering of those who did not
>>>>>>>> hold to the RCC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please cite primary source material that supports that POV.
>>>>>>> Generalisations or sweeping statements don't get much traction without citing
>>>>>>> primary source.
>>>>>> You did not answer my question. And your accusations are without merit, since
>>>>>> you are making such sweeping statements that need clearing u;.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In all the churches I've belonged to, none have ever use creeds to judge for
>>>>>>> heretics or murder of same.
>>>>>> They are used today for judgment on whether or not someone came me a member,
>>>>>> as to murder?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love the fact that you totally misrepresent what I said, and said clearly
>>>>>> about the time frame when it was used as such.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As to todays uses for judgment just look at the various posters who have
>>>>>> judged me by their favorite creed or doctrine of man. This has been going on
>>>>>> for over 20 years. So when are you all going to listen to what I said, and
>>>>>> the facts that I have presented and are documented historically, instead of
>>>>>> acting all pure and innocent?
>>>>>
>>>>> OK. Please cite where we use it "for judgment on whether or not someone came me a member".
>>>>> Support the claim from primary source.
>>>> How dare you!!! How dare you compete with the Robert Righteousness Creed!!!
>>>>
>>>> You are going to burn, burn, ROAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> Oh dear.
>>>
>>> With all the rain we are getting lately, I'm concerned that the new undergrowth and forest floor litter will fuel more bush fires in our coming Summer.
>>> It could get hot for some of us.
>>>
>>> There are two hard sayings that resonate in my mind -
>>> 1. " ... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...". Heb 10:31
>>> 2. " ... I never knew you ... " Mat 7:23
>> Can I give you some advice?
>>
>> Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and "softness" will be
>> your pillow. ...
>
> At ch, we often cite the 10 Commandments or Jesus' shortened summary you've cited Mark 12:30 which reminds us of our utter failure to fulfill - our unrighteousness.
>

Okay, but realise that that scripture is a prophecy of God. However,
firstly, not trying to "catch" you, why do you suppose what you say is true?


>> ... It sounds a bit sententious, and a bit tongue in cheek, but
>> it is true.
>
> Aye. As we are reminded here that 'there is no one righteous, no not one'.

Okay, so why do you think that is true?






Mike



>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Michael McLean
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Michael McLean
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also the title of the Apostles creed is totally misleading. Which Apostles
>>>>>>>> were involved in it and how many were still alive when it was written? Or is
>>>>>>>> the title misleading as you suggest?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some notes here https://www.britannica.com/topic/Apostles-Creed.
>>>>>> So you did not know the answers to my question?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This link did not work, page not found.
>>>>>> https://www.britannica.com/topic/Apostles-Creed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2Co 11:12-13
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which
>>>>>> desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves
>>>>>> into the apostles of Christ.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What distinction did you make that would separate the true from the false?
>>>>>> Another question to add to the list that I am asking you about.

[Michael McLean]

(snip the stuff that is gone)

>>>>> There are two hard sayings that resonate in my mind -
>>>>> 1. " ... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God...". Heb 10:31
>>>>> 2. " ... I never knew you ... " Mat 7:23
>>>> Can I give you some advice?
>>>>
>>>> Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and "softness" will be
>>>> your pillow. ...
>>>
>>> At ch, we often cite the 10 Commandments or Jesus' shortened summary you've cited Mark 12:30 which reminds us of our utter failure to fulfill - our unrighteousness.
>>>
>> Okay, but realise that that scripture is a prophecy of God. However,
>> firstly, not trying to "catch" you, why do you suppose what you say is true?
>

> Absolutely true.
> We are so self-centered,

Okay, just put a pause on that because my focus is not on good or evil,
accusation or condemnation.

>>>> ... It sounds a bit sententious, and a bit tongue in cheek, but
>>>> it is true.
>>>
>>> Aye. As we are reminded here that 'there is no one righteous, no not one'.
>> Okay, so why do you think that is true?
>

> It's more of a reality than what I think because we are sinful by nature
> "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God".

Okay, again, just put a pause on that.

There is a deeper understanding as to why no one is righteous, probably
deeper again than what I am going to say now. However, righteousness is
OF God, it never stops being HIS righteousness. We can call a man
righteous, but it is never his righteousness. Just like faith, it is
His faith, just like hope, it is His hope, just like love, it is His
love, everything is His. All the glory is His.

So, when the scripture says, there none righteous, no not one, it isn't
just saying there is no righteous man, it is saying there is never a
righteous man, because in and of ourselves we are merely clay,
but...but...we are vessels, earthen vessels.

2Co_4:7  But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the
excellency of the power may be OF God, and NOT OF us.

What do you think of that so far?





Mike


(snip)

[Michael McLean]

On 14/10/2022 11:07 am, Ollie Smth wrote:

> Certainly, there is a contrast between God's power against our powerlessness to make ourselves righteous or perfect.
>

Well, we can't can we.

So, you understand, it is up to God's power? That it is His righteousness?

What do you think would prevent God's power in a man's life from
fulfilling His prophecy?


> I view righteousness [at least in Romans] in the forensic sense that we considered OK with the Judge - absolved, exonerated, cleared etc.
>

Do you think there is a correlation between righteousness and loving God
with all one's heart, soul, and mind?



> Righteousness and justification in scripture are the same Gk word as being right with God.
>

Do you think a man be righteous and justified without loving God with
all their heart, soul, and mind?

Just talking here. There are two things happening here, one is God is
speaking to you, and God is speaking to me.




Michael McLean

[Rod]

On 8/19/2022 1:03 PM, Robert wrote:
> On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
> (in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):
>
>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who<dr....@biosphere.orb>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>>> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>>
>>> Why is that?
>>
>> They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
>> when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
>> that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.
>

> And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not agree with
> them.
>

> God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
>

And yet the murders and rapes and stealing and lying continue unabated.

[Michael McLean]

Robert has murdered, raped, stole, and lied about me. He is to be
pitied as the Lord has left him to his own religion.



Mike

--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance of God."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving

God with all their heart, soul and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do, it is what you are."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not to have a book pass
through it so that you could play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"The Bible cannot baptize. No one was ever saved by reading the Bible.
Mechanical or methodical salvation is just more Pharisee bureaucracy.
Men are saved after their conviction, death sentence, and resurrection
in baptism--the baptism of the Holy Spirit." - Nightbulb

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven."

[Dr. Who]

On Jan 3, 2023, Rod wrote
(in article <tp2n3r$296ml$1...@dont-email.me>):

Actually they did abated by volume.

Yet the sin nature of men continues on,

“And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For
from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries,
fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit,
lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil
things come from within, and defile the man.” (Mar 7:20-23, KJV)

Who would know better than the creator God who dwelt in his body of flesh,
just like ours.

[Rod]

On 1/3/2023 8:18 PM, Michael McLean wrote:
> On 4/01/2023 1:08 pm, Rod wrote:
>> On 8/19/2022 1:03 PM, Robert wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 2022, P+Barker wrote
>>> (in article<jv0vfh5agi76ohrll...@4ax.com>):
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700, Dr. Who<dr....@biosphere.orb>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>>>>> There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is that?
>>>>
>>>> They didn't need a creed when everyone believed the same thing. Only
>>>> when jerk-offs came around and started to make up crap did they decide
>>>> that one was needed for minimum requirements to join the club.
>>>
>>> And that is when men started killing others why they felt did not
>>> agree with
>>> them.
>>>
>>> God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart.
>>>
>>
>>    And yet the murders and rapes and stealing and lying continue
>> unabated.
>
> Robert has murdered, raped, stole, and lied about me.

And yet here you are, accusing him. I guess that murder
isn't what it used to be..

[Rod]

Yes..people have never known when to stop.

[Michael McLean]

The truth is the truth.

You'll see, and he will see in the end what you both have done to a son
of God.

You will wish a millstone be about your necks, and that you were drowned
in the depth of the sea.





Mike

>   He is to be
>> pitied as the Lord has left him to his own religion.
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>

[Rod]

You are far from innocent in this yourself, so what say you we
forgive one another and live in peace?

>
> You will wish a millstone be about your necks, and that you were drowned
> in the depth of the sea.

This line is straight out of the Chronicles of Aten,
sun god of egypt. Hahahahaha!

[Michael McLean]

So you decide if I am innocent or guilty? :-). So does Robert
Religion, apparently. :-).

Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.

So, sure. It has never been a problem, has it? :-).

>> You will wish a millstone be about your necks, and that you were
>> drowned in the depth of the sea.
>
>    This line is straight out of the Chronicles of Aten,
>    sun god of egypt. Hahahahaha!

Everything, all truth, comes from God and Him alone, Rod. Nevertheless,
even though I forgive you, you will still have to kneel before my Father
and His sons.






Mike

>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>>    He is to be
>>>> pitied as the Lord has left him to his own religion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

[Rod]

Do you feel guilty?

>
> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.
>
> So, sure.  It has never been a problem, has it?  :-).
>
>
>>> You will wish a millstone be about your necks, and that you were
>>> drowned in the depth of the sea.
>>
>>     This line is straight out of the Chronicles of Aten,
>>     sun god of egypt. Hahahahaha!
>
> Everything, all truth, comes from God and Him alone, Rod.  Nevertheless,
> even though I forgive you, you will still have to kneel before my Father
> and His sons.
>
>

\ Michael..it isn't any of my business what you desire to worship
but please don't ask me to do likewise. I know thru research where
your religion has it's roots and I don't want any part of it. Nothing
about it will lead any of you to enlightenment. Look around you;
all that goes on here is fighting and insults. Nothing here says
anything good about your religion or your practice of it.

[Michael McLean]

Mike wrote:
>> Everything, all truth, comes from God and Him alone, Rod.
>> Nevertheless, even though I forgive you, you will still have to kneel
>> before my Father and His sons.

Rod wrote:
> \  Michael..it isn't any of my business what you desire to worship

>    but please don't ask me to do likewise. I know thru research where
> your religion has it's roots and I don't want any part of it.

I have nothing to do with religion. I don't mix with it. Isn't it
obvious? :-). Not even yours.

What have I said that is about religion here...

"Everything, all truth, comes from God and Him alone, Rod.
Nevertheless, even though I forgive you, you will still have to kneel
before my Father and His sons."

> Nothing
>    about it will lead any of you to enlightenment.

I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.

> Look around you;
>    all that goes on here is fighting and insults. Nothing here says
> anything good about your religion or your practice of it.

"Your religion?"

The world is at war with itself, Rod.

I am not of the world. All I talk about is God, and God is truth; He is
not of the ways of man (religion).

[P+Barker]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.

What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"

[P+Barker]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:


>I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.

Maybe we already walk in the light.
Who are you to judge?

[Michael McLean]

On 6/01/2023 1:36 am, P+Barker wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.

Patrick wrote:
> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"

Good question.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

That is a state of forgiveness, and a son of God has that Spirit in
Christ Jesus. In Catholicism or Protestantism or other religionism, not
so much.

Or to make it even simpler, no matter what you do to a son of God, he
will forgive you. The love of God in him has overcome the world; more
than a conqueror.

However, the Lord will bring all things to account.

Mike

--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

[Michael McLean]

On 6/01/2023 1:37 am, P+Barker wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>
>> I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>> light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.

Patrick wrote:
> Maybe we already walk in the light.
> Who are you to judge?

Why then do you say "Maybe?"

Light is light, and dark is dark.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 06:59:48 +1100, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 6/01/2023 1:37 am, P+Barker wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>>> light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> Maybe we already walk in the light.
>> Who are you to judge?
>
>Why then do you say "Maybe?"
>Light is light, and dark is dark.

Not true.
I'm not sure I want to walk in your light.
Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
I prefer to walk in His light.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 06:56:56 +1100, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 6/01/2023 1:36 am, P+Barker wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>>> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>
>Good question.
>
>Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
>YET sinners, Christ died for us.
>
>That is a state of forgiveness,

+ THat does not answer my question.
You are starting to sound like bobbo - throwing out quotes that don't
answer a question.

>and a son of God has that Spirit in
>Christ Jesus. In Catholicism or Protestantism or other religionism, not
>so much.

<Yawn>
What does that even mean?

>Or to make it even simpler, no matter what you do to a son of God, he
>will forgive you. The love of God in him has overcome the world; more
>than a conqueror.

What about the unforgiveable sin as mentioned in your bible?

>However, the Lord will bring all things to account.

[Michael McLean]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>>>> light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.


Patrick wrote:
>>> Maybe we already walk in the light.
>>> Who are you to judge?

Mike wrote:
>> Why then do you say "Maybe?"
>> Light is light, and dark is dark.

Patrick wrote:
> Not true.

Light is light, and dark is dark.

Patrick wrote:
> I'm not sure I want to walk in your light.
> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
> I prefer to walk in His light.

That is strange, you didn't answer the question in the light, Patrick.

Nothing is hidden in the light.

"I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise."

[Michael McLean]

On 6/01/2023 7:13 am, P+Barker wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 06:56:56 +1100, Michael McLean
> <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/01/2023 1:36 am, P+Barker wrote:
>>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>>>> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.
>>
>> Patrick wrote:
>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>
>> Good question.
>>
>> Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
>> YET sinners, Christ died for us.
>>
>> That is a state of forgiveness,

Patrick wrote:
> + THat does not answer my question.

Yes, it does, and then I went on to explain.

Patrick the judge of all righteousness, wrote:
> You are starting to sound like bobbo - throwing out quotes that don't
> answer a question.

I am nothing like that Robert fellow, mate!

You should know that by now, and you do.

>> and a son of God has that Spirit in
>> Christ Jesus. In Catholicism or Protestantism or other religionism, not
>> so much.
>
> <Yawn>
> What does that even mean?

It means the Lord does not subscribe to the religions of man. Do you
really think the Lord is like your religious clubs? Really??

Mike wrote:
>> Or to make it even simpler, no matter what you do to a son of God, he
>> will forgive you. The love of God in him has overcome the world; more
>> than a conqueror.

Patrick wrote:
> What about the unforgiveable sin as mentioned in your bible?

What has that got to do with it?  Anyway, the unforgivable sin is
rejecting the Lord Jesus as your Lord, according to the Holy Spirit's
testimony and not according to the testimony of man.

In other words, God says who He is, not sinful men with a bible in their
hands and self in their hearts and minds.

That is why I constantly say, find God in your daily life.

If you have the love of God in you, you will forgive everyone; that is
the state of forgiveness.  If you still refuse to get it, forget about
it; it is not for you.

>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>
> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"

Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
ask your club president...but you still won't know.

Mike

--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:18:16 +1100, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>> I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>>>>> light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise.
>
>
>Patrick wrote:
>>>> Maybe we already walk in the light.
>>>> Who are you to judge?
>
>Mike wrote:
>>> Why then do you say "Maybe?"
>>> Light is light, and dark is dark.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> Not true.
>
>Light is light, and dark is dark.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> I'm not sure I want to walk in your light.
>> Jesus is the way, the truth, and the light.
>> I prefer to walk in His light.
>
>That is strange, you didn't answer the question in the light, Patrick.
>Nothing is hidden in the light.
>"I don't need leading to the light. I see the light and walk in the
>light. It is up to anybody and everybody to do likewise."

False light differs from defamation primarily in being intended "to
protect the plaintiff's mental or emotional well-being", rather than
to protect a plaintiff's reputation as is the case with the tort of
defamation and in being about the impression created rather than being
about veracity. If a publication of information is false, then a tort
of defamation might have occurred. If that communication is not
technically false but is still misleading, then a tort of false light
might have occurred.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:36:03 +1100, Michael McLean

<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 6/01/2023 7:13 am, P+Barker wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 06:56:56 +1100, Michael McLean
>> <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/01/2023 1:36 am, P+Barker wrote:
>>>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>>>>> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.
>>>
>>> Patrick wrote:
>>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>>
>>> Good question.
>>>
>>> Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
>>> YET sinners, Christ died for us.
>>>
>>> That is a state of forgiveness,
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> + THat does not answer my question.
>
>Yes, it does, and then I went on to explain.
>
>Patrick the judge of all righteousness,

C'mon, mikey.... Was that necessary?

>wrote:
>> You are starting to sound like bobbo - throwing out quotes that don't
>> answer a question.
>
>I am nothing like that Robert fellow, mate!
>You should know that by now, and you do.

Then don't try to insult me with "the judge of all righteousness..."

>
>>> and a son of God has that Spirit in
>>> Christ Jesus. In Catholicism or Protestantism or other religionism, not
>>> so much.
>>
>> <Yawn>
>> What does that even mean?
>
>It means the Lord does not subscribe to the religions of man.

Who ever said He does?
He also does not endorse Jack Daniels over Jim Beam.

>Do you
>really think the Lord is like your religious clubs? Really??

God is the creator of ALL.
Religious clubs (religions) merely gather together as like minded
individuals to worship our Creator.

>Mike wrote:
>>> Or to make it even simpler, no matter what you do to a son of God, he
>>> will forgive you. The love of God in him has overcome the world; more
>>> than a conqueror.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> What about the unforgiveable sin as mentioned in your bible?
>
>What has that got to do with it?

You just said: "no matter what you do to a son of God, he
will forgive you."

>Anyway, the unforgivable sin is
>rejecting the Lord Jesus as your Lord, according to the Holy Spirit's
>testimony and not according to the testimony of man.

You just said: "no matter what you do to a son of God, he
will forgive you."

>In other words, God says who He is, not sinful men with a bible in their
>hands and self in their hearts and minds.

OK.

>That is why I constantly say, find God in your daily life.

OK

>If you have the love of God in you, you will forgive everyone; that is
>the state of forgiveness.  If you still refuse to get it, forget about
>it; it is not for you.

OK.

>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>
>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>
>Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>ask your club president...but you still won't know.

You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.

A lot of people believe that children are born good and innocent. They
believe it is the world that corrupts them as they get older.

I disagree.

I have worked with many toddlers.
When toddlers saw something they wanted, they immediately stole it
from another toddler. They were selfish, although no one taught them
to be that way. Often, when a toddler was stolen from, they hit the
other toddler who stole from them. I guarantee you, no one taught that
toddler to hit and hurt someone.

Humans, I believe, are born selfish, unkind, and uncaring.

Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
nature.
That’s why kindness is so impressive.

[Matt]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2023 07:20:05 -0500, P+Barker <PBa...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Actual source Plagiarism?

https://dbpedia.org/page/False_light

[Michael McLean]

Cut the quoted dogma waffle, please.

"Light is light, dark is dark."

If you have trouble discerning the difference, then you are not walking
in the light.

[P+Barker]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2023 11:20:05 -0800, Matt <trdel...@gmail.com>
wrote:

OK.
So what?
Can you explain what was said?
I dare you.

[P+Barker]

On Sat, 7 Jan 2023 09:41:54 +1100, Michael McLean

That would be difficult for me.
You see, when I see waffle crap that means nothing, I like to follow
up with some of my own. This entertains me.

>"Light is light, dark is dark."
>If you have trouble discerning the difference, then you are not walking
>in the light.

You know, when I sometimes take a nap in the afternoon, and I wake up
suddenly, and there is light in the room, I wonder if I had slept in.
I get confused for a few seconds.

[Michael McLean]

On 6/01/2023 11:35 pm, P+Barker wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 08:36:03 +1100, Michael McLean
> <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 6/01/2023 7:13 am, P+Barker wrote:
>>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 06:56:56 +1100, Michael McLean
>>> <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/01/2023 1:36 am, P+Barker wrote:
>>>>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, I am innocent, but a son of God lives in a state of forgiveness
>>>>>> for those who accuse him of something, anything evil.
>>>>
>>>> Patrick wrote:
>>>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>>>
>>>> Good question.
>>>>
>>>> Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
>>>> YET sinners, Christ died for us.
>>>>
>>>> That is a state of forgiveness,
>>
>> Patrick wrote:
>>> + THat does not answer my question.
>>
>> Yes, it does, and then I went on to explain.
>>
>> Patrick the judge of all righteousness,
>
> C'mon, mikey.... Was that necessary?

You are "like" that, Patrick. Sorry, it just is.

>> wrote:
>>> You are starting to sound like bobbo - throwing out quotes that don't
>>> answer a question.
>>
>> I am nothing like that Robert fellow, mate!
>> You should know that by now, and you do.
>
> Then don't try to insult me with "the judge of all righteousness..."

Pause. You wrote the Bobbo bit (insulted me) BEFORE I wrote the "judge
of all righteousness."

Think about what that says about you.

I did answer your question — not that I had to.

I gave you the answer; it is not just a thrown out quote that does not
answer the question. You just haven't seen it yet...

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

If a man is in Christ Jesus, he is like Him, commending his forgiveness
towards his fellow man (in a state of forgiveness), even while he is
being sinned against, in the name of his God and in the spirit of what
Jesus has done for him.

>>>> and a son of God has that Spirit in
>>>> Christ Jesus. In Catholicism or Protestantism or other religionism, not
>>>> so much.
>>>
>>> <Yawn>
>>> What does that even mean?
>>
>> It means the Lord does not subscribe to the religions of man.
>
> Who ever said He does?
> He also does not endorse Jack Daniels over Jim Beam.

How do you know that?

The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.

>> Do you
>> really think the Lord is like your religious clubs? Really??
>
> God is the creator of ALL.
> Religious clubs (religions) merely gather together as like minded
> individuals to worship our Creator.

"Worship our Creator."

That claim is going to be sorely tested.

>> Mike wrote:
>>>> Or to make it even simpler, no matter what you do to a son of God, he
>>>> will forgive you. The love of God in him has overcome the world; more
>>>> than a conqueror.
>>
>> Patrick wrote:
>>> What about the unforgiveable sin as mentioned in your bible?
>>
>> What has that got to do with it?
>
> You just said: "no matter what you do to a son of God, he
> will forgive you."

I did, and it is true, but what have I to do with the decree and
judgement of God? Am I God?

Or...a son does what his Father wills. The unforgivable sin is the
judgement of God, but the will of the Father is for his sons to forgive.

It is much more than that, actually, it is the Spirit of His nature to
do so.

>> Anyway, the unforgivable sin is
>> rejecting the Lord Jesus as your Lord, according to the Holy Spirit's
>> testimony and not according to the testimony of man.
>
> You just said: "no matter what you do to a son of God, he
> will forgive you."

Explained above. However, forgiveness is not a carte blanche "get away
with it" to NOT reap what you have sown.

Should not "a son" do likewise...

Luke 23:34  Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not
what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.

A son of God is not led in the dark.

This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
now, let him do that.

Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
ruled.

Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.

>> In other words, God says who He is, not sinful men with a bible in their
>> hands and self in their hearts and minds.
>
> OK.
>
>
>> That is why I constantly say, find God in your daily life.
>
> OK
>
>
>> If you have the love of God in you, you will forgive everyone; that is
>> the state of forgiveness.  If you still refuse to get it, forget about
>> it; it is not for you.
>
> OK.
>
>
>>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>>
>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>
>> Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>> ask your club president...but you still won't know.
>
> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.

Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
into what I have said, Patrick.

A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
righteousness.

1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed
remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I know that is a tough verse for many, but put a pause on that and focus
on what it leads into...

1Jn 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of
the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he
that loveth not his brother.

If a man loves his neighbour/brother he will forgive him.

1Jn_2:29  If ye know that He [God] is righteous, ye know that every one
that doeth righteousness is born of Him.

It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
forgiveness is only a part of it.

I know "how" you are thinking: the church institutions do not allow
anyone to go beyond their reach, just as the Pharisees in Jesus' day did
not allow Him to go beyond their reach.

Of course, they had no power to stop Him, today or back then.

> A lot of people believe that children are born good and innocent. They
> believe it is the world that corrupts them as they get older.
>
> I disagree.

So do I. We are all born sinners. That is why we sin, not because we
sin, but because we are sinners. Some people say, you are not a sinner
until you sin - "our" Bobbo, for instance. :-). Blind. That is pure
ignorance and lack of understanding. The entire human
race...fell...through Adam and Eve.

> I have worked with many toddlers.
> When toddlers saw something they wanted, they immediately stole it
> from another toddler. They were selfish, although no one taught them
> to be that way. Often, when a toddler was stolen from, they hit the
> other toddler who stole from them. I guarantee you, no one taught that
> toddler to hit and hurt someone.
>
> Humans, I believe, are born selfish, unkind, and uncaring.

They are.

> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
> nature.

> That’s why kindness is so impressive.

Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
of course; He is the source of kindness.

That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!

Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
with.

Mike

--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

[Michael McLean]

Yet, there is no confusion.

[P+Barker]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.

OK then.
Now we all know.

>>> Do you
>>> really think the Lord is like your religious clubs? Really??
>>
>> God is the creator of ALL.
>> Religious clubs (religions) merely gather together as like minded
>> individuals to worship our Creator.
>
>"Worship our Creator."
>
>That claim is going to be sorely tested.

Yup.

>I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
>who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
>see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
>marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.

Well, now I understand..............

>This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
>I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
>image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
>receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
>let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
>now, let him do that.

Excellent. Goes along with the "free will" that God gave to us.

>Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
>ruled.

Do you plan to be a ruler?
How long will be your yard stick?

>Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
>thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
>family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
>very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.

Have a nice rest.
Wait until Spring before you attempt anything physical.

>> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
>> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
>> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.
>
>Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
>into what I have said, Patrick.

Yup. That is what I do.
Especially when you make a claim of "living in a state of
forgiveness."

>A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
>Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
>the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
>righteousness.

You are really starting to sound like bobbo again - claiming thqat you
are unable to sin anymore.

>It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
>forgiveness is only a part of it.

What is the rest of it?

>I know "how" you are thinking: the church institutions do not allow
>anyone to go beyond their reach, just as the Pharisees in Jesus' day did
>not allow Him to go beyond their reach.
>Of course, they had no power to stop Him, today or back then.

That is where you are wrong... again.
God is well beyojnd my reach.
Jesus is well beyond my reach.
I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
follow His footsteps in the "light."

>> A lot of people believe that children are born good and innocent. They
>> believe it is the world that corrupts them as they get older.
>> I disagree.
>
>So do I. We are all born sinners. That is why we sin, not because we
>sin, but because we are sinners. Some people say, you are not a sinner
>until you sin - "our" Bobbo, for instance. :-). Blind. That is pure
>ignorance and lack of understanding. The entire human
>race...fell...through Adam and Eve.

YES.

>> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
>> nature.
>> That’s why kindness is so impressive.
>
>Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
>of course; He is the source of kindness.
>That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
>do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!
>Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
>with.

All any of us can do is search for the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
agendas. Our personal relationship between us and our Creator should
always be enhanced. And we must remember that others are not always
here to help you.

[Michael McLean]

On 8/01/2023 3:17 am, P+Barker wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.
>
> OK then.
> Now we all know.

It was inline with the discussion. It wasn't mean to be a resounding
declaration of mighty magnitude to all who hear in the expanse of the
universe.

Why didn't you address the insulting me first and then complaining about
me, bit?

And a simple, thank you, for going to the trouble explaining to you
about the "state of forgiveness" would have been nice.

>>>> Do you
>>>> really think the Lord is like your religious clubs? Really??
>>>
>>> God is the creator of ALL.
>>> Religious clubs (religions) merely gather together as like minded
>>> individuals to worship our Creator.
>>
>> "Worship our Creator."
>>
>> That claim is going to be sorely tested.
>
> Yup.

Yup.


>> I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
>> who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
>> see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
>> marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.
>
> Well, now I understand..............

Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

>> This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
>> I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
>> image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
>> receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
>> let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
>> now, let him do that.
>
> Excellent. Goes along with the "free will" that God gave to us.

It is an excellent free will.

>> Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
>> ruled.
>
> Do you plan to be a ruler?

I go to dwell with Him and in Him and be with Him forever.

> How long will be your yard stick?

His thoughts are not your thoughts.

>> Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
>> thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
>> family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
>> very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.
>
> Have a nice rest.
> Wait until Spring before you attempt anything physical.

This type of attitude, here and above, leaves you with what, Patrick?

>>> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
>>> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
>>> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.
>>
>> Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
>> into what I have said, Patrick.
>
> Yup. That is what I do.

Well, maybe you ought to consider another route.

> Especially when you make a claim of "living in a state of
> forgiveness."

It is not a "claim" it is a "state".

I forgive you, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. That is
liberty. Or, as the Lord put it, John 8:36  If the Son therefore shall
****make**** you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If you and Matt forgave one another, you both would be free, or if only
one would forgive the other, that one would be free. However, you both
can't because you don't have the Spirit of God in you.

And so you will both remain bound and continue in the time you have left
until you make the free will choice to repent, find God's will in your
daily life, and do it, so He can change your attitude.

I am sure that'll be worthy of a snip or a contemptuous smart ass
comment! :-).

>> A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
>> Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
>> the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
>> righteousness.
>
> You are really starting to sound like bobbo again - claiming thqat you
> are unable to sin anymore.

A son of God does not sin; He is a new creature.

2Co_5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old
things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal_6:15  For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing,
nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

I've been over and over and over it for years! No one wants to listen.
That is their problem. I know, sinners want everyone to be like them.
Let's all go down together, and then with God, all things are NOT possible.

And why are you continuing to insult me with the Bobbo Bull? Then you
complain about yourself being given an affront? Can't you smell the
hypocrisy? Bobbo bible and I are completely opposite. Robert tries to
be what he says he is with bible quoting, while I am in the state he is
trying to be.

Or, metaphorically, I am in New York walking the streets, Robert is
still striving in his own righteousness to get there - no chance in that
"state".

>> It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
>> forgiveness is only a part of it.
>
> What is the rest of it?

A state of love, peace, joy, faith, hope, self-control, long-suffering,
gentleness, goodness, meekness, submission, and whatever is of good report.

"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

>> I know "how" you are thinking: the church institutions do not allow
>> anyone to go beyond their reach, just as the Pharisees in Jesus' day did
>> not allow Him to go beyond their reach.
>> Of course, they had no power to stop Him, today or back then.

Patrick wrote:
> That is where you are wrong... again.
> God is well beyojnd my reach.
> Jesus is well beyond my reach.
> I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
> I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
> follow His footsteps in the "light."

That is because you seek to walk in your own ways! My, my, my, when I
read what you wrote again, "Did God declare those things or you?"

With God, all things are possible!

How many times have you heard me say over the years - find the Lord's
will in your daily life and DO IT, and He will lead you OUT of your
flawed ways, and into His perfect Ways, His Light, His Will for your life.

I tell you, and anyone who will hear, not because it is Robert bible
talk theology, but because I did it. And if I did it as a loser, any
loser can do it.

It all depends on your heart...heart for God.

God, not important enough? Then don't bother with half-baked, it is a
waste of time.

God, important enough? Okay then. Let's go! Let's roll!

>>> A lot of people believe that children are born good and innocent. They
>>> believe it is the world that corrupts them as they get older.
>>> I disagree.
>>
>> So do I. We are all born sinners. That is why we sin, not because we
>> sin, but because we are sinners. Some people say, you are not a sinner
>> until you sin - "our" Bobbo, for instance. :-). Blind. That is pure
>> ignorance and lack of understanding. The entire human
>> race...fell...through Adam and Eve.
>
> YES.


>
>>> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
>>> nature.
>>> That’s why kindness is so impressive.
>>
>> Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
>> of course; He is the source of kindness.
>> That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
>> do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!
>> Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
>> with.


> All any of us can do is search for the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

You will find it when you find Him.

You continue asking, seeking, and knocking till He answers (5 mins or 5
years). He speaks only in a way that you can know - hear - for we are
all infinitely diverse, complex, and unique.

> And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
> agendas.

Did you hear immediately above?

> Our personal relationship between us and our Creator should
> always be enhanced. And we must remember that others are not always
> here to help you.

Find His personal will in your personal daily life, and no matter what
it is, do it.

It has always - ALWAYS - been the way.

What do you really want? It is your free will.

If you can get hold of the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin
Spacey and watch it, you'll understand what I have been saying. It is
free on Amazon Prime Video in Australia, maybe in the states as well?

Otherwise, don't bother.

Free choice.

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700
typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.

Yowza! Yet another boldfaced assertion about how "mission
statements" are obviously unbiblical. (Is funny, a previous poster
said the Creed was full of errors and imports from paganism. When
pressed on the issue, it finally came out that he objected to the
phrase "one baptism for the remission of sin" because that he
disagreed with. As the saying goes "It is not _your_ creed, it is The
Church's creed.")
Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
Testament, that the New Testament did all its growing despite not
having a New Testament to refer to.

But no mater. Now, where did I put that post .... ah yes
"Boilerplate:"

My turn for cut and paste.
======================
^v
Romans 10:8ff But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy
mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou
shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto
righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

1 John 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God
dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Deuteronomy 6: 4, Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Ephesians 4: 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and
through all, and in you all.

Matthew 6: 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art
in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

Exodus 6: 3 and I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob,
by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to
them.

Genesis 1: 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

Colossians 1: 15-16 who is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of every creature: 16 for by him were all things created,
that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible,
whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers:
all things were created by him, and for him

Acts 11: 17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did
unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I
could withstand God?

Matthew 14: 33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped
him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.
Matthew 16: 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ,
the Son of the living God.
John 1: 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son,
which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life.

John 1: 2 The same was in the beginning with God

Psalm 27: 1 The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear?
the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
John 8: 12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of
the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall
have the light of life.

Matthew 17: 2,5 "and was transfigured before them: and his face did
shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. ... 5 While
he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a
voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I
am well pleased; hear ye him.

John 17: 1-5 : These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to
heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy
Son also may glorify thee: 2 as thou hast given him power over all
flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given
him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only
true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified
thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to
do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the
glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 10: 30 I and my Father are one.

Hebrews 1: 1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in
time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days
spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also he made the worlds;

I Timothy 2: 4-5 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto
the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator
between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 6: 33,35 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from
heaven, and giveth life unto the world. ... 35 And Jesus said unto
them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger;
and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost
shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow
thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall
be called the Son of God.

John 1: 14 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost
shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow
thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall
be called the Son of God.

Mark 15: 25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

I Corinthians 15: 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I
also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the
scriptures

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast
anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the
people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 for to do whatsoever thy
hand and thy counsel determined before to be done

Mark 8: 31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer
many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests,
and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luke 23: 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it
in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was
laid.
I Corinthians 15: 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again
the third day according to the scriptures:

Luke 24: 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted
from them, and carried up into heaven.

Acts 1: 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went
up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

Mark 16: 19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was
received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly
into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right
hand of God,

Matthew 24: 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and
shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man
be.

Acts 10: 42; And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to
testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of
quick and dead.
2 Timothy 4: 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus
Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and
his kingdom;

2 Peter 1: 11 for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you
abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ.

John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the
Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring
all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Acts 5: 3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart
to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the
land? 4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was
sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this
thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Genesis 1: 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness
was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the
face of the waters.

John 15: 26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you
from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the
Father, he shall testify of me:

Matthew 3: 16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway
out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom
I am well pleased.

I Samuel 19: 20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they
saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as
appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of
Saul, and they also prophesied.

Ezekiel 11: 5, And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they
saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as
appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of
Saul, and they also prophesied.
Ezekiel 11: 13 And it came to pass, when I prophesied, that Pelatiah
the son of Benaiah died. Then fell I down upon my face, and cried with
a loud voice, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou make a full end of the
remnant of Israel?

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.

I Peter 2: 5,9 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual
house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. ... But ye are a chosen generation,
a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should
shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into
his marvellous light:

Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 2: 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and
fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
Ephesians 2: 19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household
of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in
whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an
habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

John 11: 24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in
the resurrection at the last day.
I Cor. 15:12-49 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead,
how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 and if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your
faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God;
because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he
raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead
rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 and if Christ be not raised,
your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which
are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we
have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is
Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that
slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the
resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the
firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to
God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all
enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith
all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted,
which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be
subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him
that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29 Else
what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise
not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand
we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have
in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I
have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the
dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake
to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God:
I speak this to your shame.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what
body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not
quickened, except it die: 37 and that which thou sowest, thou sowest
not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat,
or of some other grain: 38 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased
him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same
flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts,
another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial
bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one,
and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of
the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the
stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also
is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is
raised in incorruption: 43 it is sown in dishonour; it is raised in
glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 it is sown a
natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it
is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam
was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is
spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is
spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is
the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are
earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear
the image of the heavenly.

Mark 10: 29-30 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you,
There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or
father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and
the gospel’s, 30 but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,
houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and
lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Psalm 106:48 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to
everlasting:
and let all the people say, Amen.

Praise ye the Lord.
==== end of cut and paste ===

Now as we can all see, that is so much longer than the "short form"
known as the Nicene-Constantinople statement of beliefs:
^v
I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten
of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God,
begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all
things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from
heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and
became man. He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered
and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the
Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of
the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and
dead. His kingdom shall have no end.

And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds
from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is
worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to
come.

Amen.
==== end cut and paste

Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
the various letters of the early church, the Apostles had faithfully
taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
others.

>Why is that?

The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
in The Church.
The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«

Why was that thought so important?
Because someone influential was teaching something quite
different, namely that Jesus was not co-eternal wit the Father, but
was a created being. The cynical answer is that Constantine called
the council because he was discovering that there was conflict in the
Church he was hoping would unify the Empire. Regardless of why, the
Emperor provided transportation for bishops from "all over the world"
to come and settle this issue. And they _found_ that the consensus of
what they were teaching could be expressed in what is called the
Symbol of The Faith. (It is known as "the Creed" from the first words
in Latin "Credo" - I believe.)

But all that is probably more information than "Dr Who" can
handle.
--
For many "I am spiritual, not religious".seems the short form of
"I retain the option to adjust my beliefs to fit my lifestyle,
nor be constrained by prior statements about what I said I believe."

[Dr. Who]

On Jan 7, 2023, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<ns8krhpoh4hnnk2vv...@4ax.com>):

> Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700
> typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
> > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
> > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>
> Yowza! Yet another boldfaced assertion about how "mission
> statements" are obviously unbiblical. (Is funny, a previous poster
> said the Creed was full of errors and imports from paganism. When
> pressed on the issue, it finally came out that he objected to the
> phrase "one baptism for the remission of sin" because that he
> disagreed with. As the saying goes "It is not _your_ creed, it is The
> Church's creed.")

When these religious people are asked what creed version of the Nicene Creed,
they waffle and dance and do not want to be nailed down to one. Makes it very
hard to discuss anything about it, as it is all man made and varies.

That, pyotr, is hitting the nail on the head. Thank you!
It is not my creed.
It is not your creed.
It is not the creed of God, nor his Son.
It IS the Church's creed.
Which is what I have been claiming all along.

>
> Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
> Testament, that the New Testament did all its growing despite not
> having a New Testament to refer to.

But of course! Thank you.
Jesus showed the Apostles where he was to be found in the OT scriptures.
(Inspired by God)
The Prophecies of Jesus are woven throughout the OT. (All inspired by God)
The NT likewise is all inspired by God.

And the scriptures be true. Do you know and understand the meaning of each
one, and its context?

Religions Argue about these things as do many here within these NG's.

>
>
> Now as we can all see, that is so much longer than the "short form"
> known as the Nicene-Constantinople statement of beliefs:
> ^v
> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,
> and of all things visible and invisible.
>
> And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten
> of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God,
> begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all
> things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from
> heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and
> became man.

Incarnate is not implied in scripture. Quite the error there.

> He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered
> and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the
> Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of
> the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and
> dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
>
> And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds
> from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is
> worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

Not taught in the high religions.

>
>
> In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.

Not taught in scripture.

>
>
> I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

Total error here. Not found in scripture. Jesus said, I am the way, and there
is no other.

>
>
> I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to
> come.

Dead saints or pagans. All are resurrected. Where is the clarity.
>
>
> Amen.

(So be it) one is expected to adhere to those doctrines or be counted a
heretic.

>
> ==== end cut and paste
>
> Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
> the various letters of the early church, the Apostles had faithfully
> taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
> others.

The Diadache is not scripture.

>
>
> > Why is that?
>
> The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
> in The Church.
> The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
> the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
> of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
> only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
> Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
> essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«

Canonize a creed considered to be authorized and written by a pagan
Constantine and the bishops he called to the conference? Is it acceptable
that those of Belial and "God" be associated one with the other?

>
>
> Why was that thought so important?
> Because someone influential was teaching something quite
> different, namely that Jesus was not co-eternal wit the Father, but
> was a created being. The cynical answer is that Constantine called
> the council because he was discovering that there was conflict in the
> Church he was hoping would unify the Empire. Regardless of why, the
> Emperor provided transportation for bishops from "all over the world"
> to come and settle this issue. And they _found_ that the consensus of
> what they were teaching could be expressed in what is called the
> Symbol of The Faith. (It is known as "the Creed" from the first words
> in Latin "Credo" - I believe.)

Yet the creed says "We Believe" Something I addressed within the last couple
weeks.

>
>
> But all that is probably more information than "Dr Who" can
> handle.

Dr. Who discussed this all around 20 years ago, However, I am glad to see you
finally having the courage to state your beliefs as well as quote scripture
that you have argued is Invalid.

God would rather have you commit to something, even if in error, than to be
lukewarm.

Good on you pyotr. Good on you.

[P+Barker]

On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 10:24:38 +1100, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 8/01/2023 3:17 am, P+Barker wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.
>>
>> OK then.
>> Now we all know.
>
>It was inline with the discussion. It wasn't mean to be a resounding
>declaration of mighty magnitude to all who hear in the expanse of the
>universe.

And the sky is blue.

>Why didn't you address the insulting me first and then complaining about
>me, bit?

Did I insult you?
I remember saying that you are starting to remind me of bobbo.
You may take that as an insult, if you want to.
I merely stated a fact.

>And a simple, thank you, for going to the trouble explaining to you
>about the "state of forgiveness" would have been nice.

Thank you for the gobble-de-goop.
Most enlightening.

>>> I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
>>> who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
>>> see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
>>> marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.
>>
>> Well, now I understand..............
>
>Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

Pearls before wine.

>>> This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
>>> I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
>>> image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
>>> receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
>>> let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
>>> now, let him do that.
>>
>> Excellent. Goes along with the "free will" that God gave to us.
>
>It is an excellent free will.

It is what gets us all into trouble.

>>> Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
>>> ruled.
>>
>> Do you plan to be a ruler?
>
>I go to dwell with Him and in Him and be with Him forever.

But will you rule with Him?
Really?

>> How long will be your yard stick?
>
>His thoughts are not your thoughts.
>
>
>>> Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
>>> thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
>>> family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
>>> very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.
>>
>> Have a nice rest.
>> Wait until Spring before you attempt anything physical.
>
>This type of attitude, here and above, leaves you with what, Patrick?

Existing through the Winter.
Have you ever thought about people in Montana, living in a log cabin
through the Winter? It had to be pretty tough. Drafts through the
walls, snow 3 feet high, do you have enough wood for the fire until
Spring?, How will the farm animals make out?, food?, etc?

Sometimes you just have to make sure you planned enough prior to the
bad weather coming.

This is a good time to plan, to keep functioning, continue learning,
and preparing for the future. Yes, I know that when man plans, that
God just smiles. I will continue to plan for all contingencies.

>>>> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
>>>> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
>>>> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.
>>>
>>> Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
>>> into what I have said, Patrick.
>>
>> Yup. That is what I do.
>
>Well, maybe you ought to consider another route.

What? You want me to start thinking like you?
That would be contrary to who I am.

>> Especially when you make a claim of "living in a state of
>> forgiveness."
>
>It is not a "claim" it is a "state".

Does it go along with bobbo's "being saved?"

>I forgive you, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. That is
>liberty. Or, as the Lord put it, John 8:36  If the Son therefore shall
>****make**** you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Free to eat, to fish, to sleep, to plan, to care for God and family.

>If you and Matt forgave one another, you both would be free, or if only
>one would forgive the other, that one would be free. However, you both
>can't because you don't have the Spirit of God in you.

Don't speak for God.
You don't know my state of grace.
I do not need to forgive matty.
He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.

>And so you will both remain bound and continue in the time you have left
>until you make the free will choice to repent, find God's will in your
>daily life, and do it, so He can change your attitude.

Don't speak for God.
You don't know my state of grace.
I do not need to forgive matty.
He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.

>I am sure that'll be worthy of a snip or a contemptuous smart ass
>comment! :-).

Are you pretending to be a peace-maker here?
Rod has tried that role many times.
What did it get him?
Insults toward him and his wife.

As long as matt decides that he nust insult the RCC, sqeal on every
sinner within the RCC, and say the organization has no value, then I
will just sit back and let him. I already understand that all men are
prone to sin, all men have free will, and people will sometimes go
against common sense and the common good.

Most men and women in this world are decent, honest, law abiding
citizens who want good for all society, family, and God.

Some people are not so nice.

>>> A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
>>> Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
>>> the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
>>> righteousness.
>>
>> You are really starting to sound like bobbo again - claiming thqat you
>> are unable to sin anymore.
>
>A son of God does not sin; He is a new creature.

Did I mention that you are starting to sound like bobbo again?
All men have free will. All men sometimes do NOT do the right thing.

>I've been over and over and over it for years! No one wants to listen.
>That is their problem. I know, sinners want everyone to be like them.
>Let's all go down together, and then with God, all things are NOT possible.

We are all sinners.
We do not want everyone to be like us.
What fun would that be>

>And why are you continuing to insult me with the Bobbo Bull?

Why do you continue to claim you are unable to sin?

>>> It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
>>> forgiveness is only a part of it.
>>
>> What is the rest of it?
>
>A state of love, peace, joy, faith, hope, self-control, long-suffering,
>gentleness, goodness, meekness, submission, and whatever is of good report.
>"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

I've already agreed to that.

>
>Patrick wrote:
>> That is where you are wrong... again.
>> God is well beyojnd my reach.
>> Jesus is well beyond my reach.
>> I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
>> I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
>> follow His footsteps in the "light."
>
>That is because you seek to walk in your own ways! My, my, my, when I
>read what you wrote again, "Did God declare those things or you?"

I have common sense.
I know I am not equal to God.
I know I will not "rule" with God as you said earlier.
I will never comprehend God, eternity, the universe.

I will be satisfied to keep searching for answers.
And read Holy Scripture, and listen to wiser men than myself.

>With God, all things are possible!
>How many times have you heard me say over the years - find the Lord's
>will in your daily life and DO IT, and He will lead you OUT of your
>flawed ways, and into His perfect Ways, His Light, His Will for your life.

Can I hear an "AMEN!"

>I tell you, and anyone who will hear, not because it is Robert bible
>talk theology, but because I did it. And if I did it as a loser, any
>loser can do it.
>It all depends on your heart...heart for God.

Well then, perhaps I should be satified that you have reached nirvana.

Nirvana is a place of perfect peace and happiness, like heaven. In
Hinduism and Buddhism, nirvana is the highest state that someone can
attain, a state of enlightenment, meaning a person's individual
desires and suffering go away.

If you have reached this place, good for you.
I merely have to ask why you sound like so many other televangelists
who make the same claim, and ask for my money, my prayers, etc.
I don't want to pay for your "holy water." I don't want you to place
my petitions on your altar and watch as you lay on top of them and
pray to your Lord and Savior.

>God, not important enough? Then don't bother with half-baked, it is a
>waste of time.
>God, important enough? Okay then. Let's go! Let's roll!

Why did God put you here on earth?
Merely to praise Him, pray to Him, worship Him?

God gave us life for a reason.
Don't pretend to be a Shaker and spend your entire life ignoring
people, places, things that He has awarded us.
(Shakerism has a message for this present age–a message as valid today
as when it was first expressed. It teaches above all else that God is
Love and that our most solemn duty is to show forth that God who is
love in the World.) The wisdom of their instructions, the purity of
their doctrine, their Christ-like deportment, and the simplicity of
their manners, all appeared truly apostolical.

>>>> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
>>>> nature.
>>>> That’s why kindness is so impressive.
>>>
>>> Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
>>> of course; He is the source of kindness.
>>> That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
>>> do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!
>>> Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
>>> with.
>
>
>> All any of us can do is search for the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
>
>You will find it when you find Him.

Reminds me of the joke.....
A drunk is wandering along the side of a river and comes accross a
bunch of people standing in waiste deep water, looking both sad and
happy. The drunk wanders out to them and they ask him about being
saved. A few grab the man and dunk him below the water. Then they
pull him up and asked if he has found Jesus. He says no. They dunk
him again... and again... Finally when he comes up, he asks "Are you
sure this is where he went in?"

>You continue asking, seeking, and knocking till He answers (5 mins or 5
>years). He speaks only in a way that you can know - hear - for we are
>all infinitely diverse, complex, and unique.

OK

>> And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
>> agendas.
>
>Did you hear immediately above?

And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
agendas.



>> Our personal relationship between us and our Creator should
>> always be enhanced. And we must remember that others are not always
>> here to help you.
>
>Find His personal will in your personal daily life, and no matter what
>it is, do it.
>
>It has always - ALWAYS - been the way.
>
>What do you really want? It is your free will.
>
>If you can get hold of the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin
>Spacey and watch it, you'll understand what I have been saying. It is
>free on Amazon Prime Video in Australia, maybe in the states as well?
>
>Otherwise, don't bother.
>Free choice.

I'll pass.

[Michael McLean]

On 9/01/2023 2:19 am, P+Barker wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Jan 2023 10:24:38 +1100, Michael McLean
> <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/01/2023 3:17 am, P+Barker wrote:
>>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>>>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.
>>>
>>> OK then.
>>> Now we all know.
>>
>> It was inline with the discussion. It wasn't mean to be a resounding
>> declaration of mighty magnitude to all who hear in the expanse of the
>> universe.
>
> And the sky is blue.


"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."



>> Why didn't you address the insulting me first and then complaining about
>> me, bit?
>
> Did I insult you?
> I remember saying that you are starting to remind me of bobbo.
> You may take that as an insult, if you want to.
> I merely stated a fact.

I thought you said you walked in the light, not in hypocrisy?

>> And a simple, thank you, for going to the trouble explaining to you
>> about the "state of forgiveness" would have been nice.
>
> Thank you for the gobble-de-goop.
> Most enlightening.

How heartening.

>
>
>>>> I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
>>>> who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
>>>> see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
>>>> marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.
>>>
>>> Well, now I understand..............
>>
>> Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
>
> Pearls before wine.

Cheers, then.

>
>
>
>>>> This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
>>>> I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
>>>> image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
>>>> receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
>>>> let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
>>>> now, let him do that.
>>>
>>> Excellent. Goes along with the "free will" that God gave to us.
>>
>> It is an excellent free will.
>
> It is what gets us all into trouble.

Or out of it. It is a two-edged sword.

>
>
>>>> Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
>>>> ruled.
>>>
>>> Do you plan to be a ruler?
>>
>> I go to dwell with Him and in Him and be with Him forever.
>
> But will you rule with Him?
> Really?

So what? I am sure there will be many many things.

It not a big thing to rule when you are ruled, there is no fallen man
ego in it to complicate things.

>>> How long will be your yard stick?
>>
>> His thoughts are not your thoughts.
>>
>>
>>>> Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
>>>> thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
>>>> family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
>>>> very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.
>>>
>>> Have a nice rest.
>>> Wait until Spring before you attempt anything physical.
>>
>> This type of attitude, here and above, leaves you with what, Patrick?
>
> Existing through the Winter.

That is not what I am talking about, and you know it.

> Have you ever thought about people in Montana, living in a log cabin
> through the Winter? It had to be pretty tough. Drafts through the
> walls, snow 3 feet high, do you have enough wood for the fire until
> Spring?, How will the farm animals make out?, food?, etc?
>
> Sometimes you just have to make sure you planned enough prior to the
> bad weather coming.
>
> This is a good time to plan, to keep functioning, continue learning,
> and preparing for the future. Yes, I know that when man plans, that
> God just smiles. I will continue to plan for all contingencies.

Make it a real good one then. Good luck.

>>>>> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
>>>>> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
>>>>> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.
>>>>
>>>> Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
>>>> into what I have said, Patrick.
>>>
>>> Yup. That is what I do.
>>
>> Well, maybe you ought to consider another route.
>
> What? You want me to start thinking like you?
> That would be contrary to who I am.

That is not what I said.

>>> Especially when you make a claim of "living in a state of
>>> forgiveness."
>>
>> It is not a "claim" it is a "state".
>
> Does it go along with bobbo's "being saved?"

Still insulting me!

Try another route.

>> I forgive you, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. That is
>> liberty. Or, as the Lord put it, John 8:36  If the Son therefore shall
>> ****make**** you free, ye shall be free indeed.
>
> Free to eat, to fish, to sleep, to plan, to care for God and family.

Free to put God first.

>> If you and Matt forgave one another, you both would be free, or if only
>> one would forgive the other, that one would be free. However, you both
>> can't because you don't have the Spirit of God in you.
>
> Don't speak for God.
> You don't know my state of grace.
> I do not need to forgive matty.

Then you will not be free.

> He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
> If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.

He is not the only one doing the insulting, Patto. :-).

>> And so you will both remain bound and continue in the time you have left
>> until you make the free will choice to repent, find God's will in your
>> daily life, and do it, so He can change your attitude.
>
> Don't speak for God.
> You don't know my state of grace.
> I do not need to forgive matty.
> He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
> If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.

If you would be a man (e.g. Job), you would repent. Until you do, you
will remain bound.

>> I am sure that'll be worthy of a snip or a contemptuous smart ass
>> comment! :-).
>
> Are you pretending to be a peace-maker here?

I am not pretending anything.

> Rod has tried that role many times.
> What did it get him?
> Insults toward him and his wife.

Well, it is not my role and I am not Rod, but at least he tried.

> As long as matt decides that he nust insult the RCC, sqeal on every
> sinner within the RCC, and say the organization has no value, then I
> will just sit back and let him. I already understand that all men are
> prone to sin, all men have free will, and people will sometimes go
> against common sense and the common good.

But not you, Patrick.

> Most men and women in this world are decent, honest, law abiding
> citizens who want good for all society, family, and God.

They want good for themselves. All men were born sinners, it doesn't
evaporate as they grow out of infancy.

> Some people are not so nice.

You are looking at the world through the world's lens. That is what is
happening here...

"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

>>>> A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
>>>> Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
>>>> the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
>>>> righteousness.
>>>
>>> You are really starting to sound like bobbo again - claiming thqat you
>>> are unable to sin anymore.
>>
>> A son of God does not sin; He is a new creature.
>
> Did I mention that you are starting to sound like bobbo again?
> All men have free will. All men sometimes do NOT do the right thing.

You cannot speak for all men.

>> I've been over and over and over it for years! No one wants to listen.
>> That is their problem. I know, sinners want everyone to be like them.
>> Let's all go down together, and then with God, all things are NOT possible.
>
> We are all sinners.

Were. With God, all things are possible. Some have been cleansed of
all unrighteousness; a few that chose to lose their lives. The
unrighteous are unable to judge that. All they have is the world's lens
and can't see or understand things like, "a state of forgiveness."

Did you think God came for nothing, no change, same bat time, same bat
channel?? God forbid!

> We do not want everyone to be like us.
> What fun would that be>

We are all infinitely different anyway. However, I am talking about all
being in the same boat; we are not, there is a choice.

>> And why are you continuing to insult me with the Bobbo Bull?
>
> Why do you continue to claim you are unable to sin?

You are deliberately skewing context. Where is this walk in the light
that you claim?

Mike wrote:
>>>> It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
>>>> forgiveness is only a part of it.

Patrick wrote:
>>> What is the rest of it?

Mike wrote:
>> A state of love, peace, joy, faith, hope, self-control, long-suffering,
>> gentleness, goodness, meekness, submission, and whatever is of good report.
>> "The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

Patrick wrote:
> I've already agreed to that.

You asked the question, I answered the question.

>> Patrick wrote:
>>> That is where you are wrong... again.
>>> God is well beyojnd my reach.
>>> Jesus is well beyond my reach.
>>> I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
>>> I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
>>> follow His footsteps in the "light."
>>
>> That is because you seek to walk in your own ways! My, my, my, when I
>> read what you wrote again, "Did God declare those things or you?"
>
> I have common sense.

So the answer is, you did.

> I know I am not equal to God.
> I know I will not "rule" with God as you said earlier.

I don't know if you will or not. It depends of what you choose.

> I will never comprehend God, eternity, the universe.

You declare an awful lot for someone who does not know, Patrick.

> I will be satisfied to keep searching for answers.

That is not satisfaction; nowhere near it. Satisfaction is knowing He
is the answer.

> And read Holy Scripture, and listen to wiser men than myself.

Nice sentiment, but you are certainly a man of personal idealism a wise
man would find hard to penetrate.

By the grace of God, I go one better than reading the bible..."for thy
testimonies are my meditation."

This is what I tell, Bobbo the bible Magnificat (my great mate): He is
not a book.

>> With God, all things are possible!
>> How many times have you heard me say over the years - find the Lord's
>> will in your daily life and DO IT, and He will lead you OUT of your
>> flawed ways, and into His perfect Ways, His Light, His Will for your life.
>
> Can I hear an "AMEN!"

I haven't from you in word and deed.

>> I tell you, and anyone who will hear, not because it is Robert bible
>> talk theology, but because I did it. And if I did it as a loser, any
>> loser can do it.
>> It all depends on your heart...heart for God.
>
> Well then, perhaps I should be satified that you have reached nirvana.

Worldly lens, again.

> Nirvana is a place of perfect peace and happiness, like heaven. In
> Hinduism and Buddhism, nirvana is the highest state that someone can
> attain, a state of enlightenment, meaning a person's individual
> desires and suffering go away.

The Lord is not an "attainment", He is a Person.

> If you have reached this place, good for you.
> I merely have to ask why you sound like so many other televangelists
> who make the same claim, and ask for my money, my prayers, etc.
> I don't want to pay for your "holy water." I don't want you to place
> my petitions on your altar and watch as you lay on top of them and
> pray to your Lord and Savior.

Worldly lens, again...mixed with contempt. You really need to take a
different route.

Change can only be brought about by God in response to a man's free will
choice to receive Him. That has nothing to do with your little
wonder-tally above.

>> God, not important enough? Then don't bother with half-baked, it is a
>> waste of time.
>> God, important enough? Okay then. Let's go! Let's roll!
>
> Why did God put you here on earth?

The same reason He put anyone here, to enter into a loving relationship
with us.

> Merely to praise Him, pray to Him, worship Him?

To love Him; He wanted children, children that loved Him

> God gave us life for a reason.
> Don't pretend to be a Shaker and spend your entire life ignoring
> people, places, things that He has awarded us.
> (Shakerism has a message for this present age–a message as valid today
> as when it was first expressed. It teaches above all else that God is
> Love and that our most solemn duty is to show forth that God who is
> love in the World.) The wisdom of their instructions, the purity of
> their doctrine, their Christ-like deportment, and the simplicity of
> their manners, all appeared truly apostolical.

What is this, a model's runway?

Sounds majestic, but the answer is given above.

>>>>> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
>>>>> nature.
>>>>> That’s why kindness is so impressive.
>>>>
>>>> Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
>>>> of course; He is the source of kindness.
>>>> That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
>>>> do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!
>>>> Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
>>>> with.
>>
>>
>>> All any of us can do is search for the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
>>
>> You will find it when you find Him.
>
> Reminds me of the joke.....
> A drunk is wandering along the side of a river and comes accross a
> bunch of people standing in waiste deep water, looking both sad and
> happy. The drunk wanders out to them and they ask him about being
> saved. A few grab the man and dunk him below the water. Then they
> pull him up and asked if he has found Jesus. He says no. They dunk
> him again... and again... Finally when he comes up, he asks "Are you
> sure this is where he went in?"

Hahahaha...good one.

However, you will find the way, the truth, and the light, when you find
Him, right?

>> You continue asking, seeking, and knocking till He answers (5 mins or 5
>> years). He speaks only in a way that you can know - hear - for we are
>> all infinitely diverse, complex, and unique.
>
> OK
>
>
>>> And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
>>> agendas.
>>
>> Did you hear immediately above?
>
> And we must not get way-laid by other humans who have their own
> agendas.

And your own.

>
>
>
>>> Our personal relationship between us and our Creator should
>>> always be enhanced. And we must remember that others are not always
>>> here to help you.
>>
>> Find His personal will in your personal daily life, and no matter what
>> it is, do it.
>>
>> It has always - ALWAYS - been the way.
>>
>> What do you really want? It is your free will.
>>
>> If you can get hold of the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin
>> Spacey and watch it, you'll understand what I have been saying. It is
>> free on Amazon Prime Video in Australia, maybe in the states as well?
>>
>> Otherwise, don't bother.
>> Free choice.
>
> I'll pass.

Sure, you are not wasting my time.

[P+Barker]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
over 600 lines.
Ler's see how much I can stomach before I go fix breakfast.

>>>>> The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>>>>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much.
>>>>
>>>> OK then.
>>>> Now we all know.
>>>
>>> It was inline with the discussion. It wasn't mean to be a resounding
>>> declaration of mighty magnitude to all who hear in the expanse of the
>>> universe.
>>
>> And the sky is blue.
>
>"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

OK then.
Now we all know.



>>> Why didn't you address the insulting me first and then complaining about
>>> me, bit?
>>
>> Did I insult you?
>> I remember saying that you are starting to remind me of bobbo.
>> You may take that as an insult, if you want to.
>> I merely stated a fact.
>
>I thought you said you walked in the light, not in hypocrisy?

Never said that.
That was you who said it.
If I make a comment about what you remind me of, is this really
hypocracy? It is merely a fact.

>>> And a simple, thank you, for going to the trouble explaining to you
>>> about the "state of forgiveness" would have been nice.
>>
>> Thank you for the gobble-de-goop.
>> Most enlightening.
>
>How heartening.

Yup, you seem to have this "state of forgiveness" down for yourself.

>>>>> I forgive people all the time because they don't know what they are or
>>>>> who they are or where they are. If you walk in the light, it is easy to
>>>>> see what is what and what is not, easy to divide the bone from the
>>>>> marrow as it has already been divided right in front of you.
>>>>
>>>> Well, now I understand..............
>>>
>>> Psalms 119:105  Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
>>
>> Pearls before wine.
>
>Cheers, then.

I am cheerful. I am an optimist.
Life is good for me. God has been very good to me.

>>>>> This whole subject is on the front burner with me at the moment, because
>>>>> I believe the Lord Jesus died on the cross for everyone made in His
>>>>> image...forgiveness for all. However, what a man chooses he will
>>>>> receive. If a man chooses to lose his life to the Lord, here and now,
>>>>> let him do that, and if a man chooses not to lose his life, here and
>>>>> now, let him do that.
>>>>
>>>> Excellent. Goes along with the "free will" that God gave to us.
>>>
>>> It is an excellent free will.
>>
>> It is what gets us all into trouble.
>
>Or out of it. It is a two-edged sword.

I am the one who knows what free will is.
Since you claim you are unable to sin, you can't have a free will.

>>>>> Therefore, there will be those who rule with Him, and those who will be
>>>>> ruled.
>>>>
>>>> Do you plan to be a ruler?
>>>
>>> I go to dwell with Him and in Him and be with Him forever.
>>
>> But will you rule with Him?
>> Really?
>
>So what? I am sure there will be many many things.

Do you have pride that you will rule with the Big Guy?
I am not worthy.
But then, you consider yourself special.
You know, it might be cool to rule with Jesus.

>It not a big thing to rule when you are ruled, there is no fallen man
>ego in it to complicate things.

When you rule, will you have a free will?

>>>> How long will be your yard stick?
>>>
>>> His thoughts are not your thoughts.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Personally, and I was just thinking about it this morning, the only
>>>>> thing I am looking forward to is the wholeness and completeness of the
>>>>> family of God in the life to come. I am going to soak in that for a
>>>>> very, very long time, and then I might get up and do something.
>>>>
>>>> Have a nice rest.
>>>> Wait until Spring before you attempt anything physical.
>>>
>>> This type of attitude, here and above, leaves you with what, Patrick?
>>
>> Existing through the Winter.
>
>That is not what I am talking about, and you know it.

If I don't make it through Winter, I am done.
That is a big deal to me because I have many things yet that I still
want to do. I've got two grandkids through college now. Two to go. My
bride and I want to make it easier on our kids and grandkids to make
it in this world. I certainly cannot build this world anymore, but I
can make it easier for others to be able to contribute to God and
society.

>> Have you ever thought about people in Montana, living in a log cabin
>> through the Winter? It had to be pretty tough. Drafts through the
>> walls, snow 3 feet high, do you have enough wood for the fire until
>> Spring?, How will the farm animals make out?, food?, etc?
>>
>> Sometimes you just have to make sure you planned enough prior to the
>> bad weather coming.
>>
>> This is a good time to plan, to keep functioning, continue learning,
>> and preparing for the future. Yes, I know that when man plans, that
>> God just smiles. I will continue to plan for all contingencies.
>
>Make it a real good one then. Good luck.

Thank you.

>>>>>> You see, I just don't hang onto a "state of fogiveness."
>>>>>> To me, this is like a bell that is rung. Once rung, it has been rung.
>>>>>> One does not live in the state of a bell having been rung.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hang onto?? A ringing bell?? You are projecting your personal thoughts
>>>>> into what I have said, Patrick.
>>>>
>>>> Yup. That is what I do.
>>>
>>> Well, maybe you ought to consider another route.
>>
>> What? You want me to start thinking like you?
>> That would be contrary to who I am.
>
>That is not what I said.

What did you say then?

>>>> Especially when you make a claim of "living in a state of
>>>> forgiveness."
>>>
>>> It is not a "claim" it is a "state".
>>
>> Does it go along with bobbo's "being saved?"
>
>Still insulting me!
>Try another route.

Like what?
I'm sure you have some idea in your head.

>>> I forgive you, and there is nothing you can do to stop me. That is
>>> liberty. Or, as the Lord put it, John 8:36  If the Son therefore shall
>>> ****make**** you free, ye shall be free indeed.
>>
>> Free to eat, to fish, to sleep, to plan, to care for God and family.
>
>Free to put God first.

Man must first meet minimum requirements for life before he can can
consider putting anyone first. It is the nature of man.

>>> If you and Matt forgave one another, you both would be free, or if only
>>> one would forgive the other, that one would be free. However, you both
>>> can't because you don't have the Spirit of God in you.
>>
>> Don't speak for God.
>> You don't know my state of grace.
>> I do not need to forgive matty.
>
>Then you will not be free.

Free of what?
There are many things that I can ignore, and still be in the grace of
God. For example, I am unable to put forgiveness in my heart for
Putin, Kim, or other bullies in this world. I cannot be like the Jews
who removed their clothes, and walked into the showers to be de-liced.
I can easily compartmentalize things I can change and those things
that I cannot.
Some things you just have to accept. You don't forgive tornadoes,
hurricanes, droughts, or mud slides.

>> He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
>> If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.
>
>He is not the only one doing the insulting, Patto. :-).

Yup.

>>> And so you will both remain bound and continue in the time you have left
>>> until you make the free will choice to repent, find God's will in your
>>> daily life, and do it, so He can change your attitude.
>>
>> Don't speak for God.
>> You don't know my state of grace.
>> I do not need to forgive matty.
>> He is his own person, he makes his own decisions.
>> If he wishes to insult me, I understand. That is matty.
>
>If you would be a man (e.g. Job), you would repent. Until you do, you
>will remain bound.

Repent? Repent?
matt is entertainment for me.
He lies, insults, and tries to upset the applecart.
I merely inform him of his lies, and then laugh at him.
It is up to him to change. I do not seek out turds in the road.

>>> I am sure that'll be worthy of a snip or a contemptuous smart ass
>>> comment! :-).
>>
>> Are you pretending to be a peace-maker here?
>
>I am not pretending anything.

Do you want a smart-ass remark then?

>> Rod has tried that role many times.
>> What did it get him?
>> Insults toward him and his wife.
>
>Well, it is not my role and I am not Rod, but at least he tried.

Yes, and I admire him for this.
Rod is a human being who tries the best he can to be a positive
influence.

>
>> As long as matt decides that he nust insult the RCC, sqeal on every
>> sinner within the RCC, and say the organization has no value, then I
>> will just sit back and let him. I already understand that all men are
>> prone to sin, all men have free will, and people will sometimes go
>> against common sense and the common good.
>
>But not you, Patrick.

I already understand that all men are
prone to sin, all men have free will, and people will sometimes go
against common sense and the common good.



>> Most men and women in this world are decent, honest, law abiding
>> citizens who want good for all society, family, and God.
>
>They want good for themselves. All men were born sinners, it doesn't
>evaporate as they grow out of infancy.

Except for you.
You have achieved the ability to never sin again.
You ware being groomed to help Jesus rule.

>> Some people are not so nice.
>
>You are looking at the world through the world's lens. That is what is
>happening here...

And you are looking at the world through a false lense.

That is what is happening here.

I already understand that all men are
prone to sin, all men have free will, and people will sometimes go
against common sense and the common good.

>"The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."

We've already agreed to that.
And since you do not claim any religion, you are unable to be
corrupted by... or tied down to any specific belief. You make it up
as you go along. Yes, I said that. "State of forgiveness" C'mon.
(Did I mention that you sometimes remind me of bobbo?)

>>>>> A son of God lives in a state of forgiveness because that is the new
>>>>> Spirit of God in him. We can't help but forgive; it is a testimony of
>>>>> the nature of God. Just as sinners sin, a true son of God doeth
>>>>> righteousness.
>>>>
>>>> You are really starting to sound like bobbo again - claiming thqat you
>>>> are unable to sin anymore.
>>>
>>> A son of God does not sin; He is a new creature.
>>
>> Did I mention that you are starting to sound like bobbo again?
>> All men have free will. All men sometimes do NOT do the right thing.
>
>You cannot speak for all men.

You mentioned earlier that ALL MEN are born in a state of sin.

>>> I've been over and over and over it for years! No one wants to listen.
>>> That is their problem. I know, sinners want everyone to be like them.
>>> Let's all go down together, and then with God, all things are NOT possible.
>>
>> We are all sinners.
>
>Were. With God, all things are possible. Some have been cleansed of
>all unrighteousness; a few that chose to lose their lives. The
>unrighteous are unable to judge that. All they have is the world's lens
>and can't see or understand things like, "a state of forgiveness."

I like living in the state of good common sense.
God and I are good.

>Did you think God came for nothing, no change, same bat time, same bat
>channel?? God forbid!

Pfffffffffffft.

>> We do not want everyone to be like us.
>> What fun would that be>
>
>We are all infinitely different anyway. However, I am talking about all
>being in the same boat; we are not, there is a choice.

Then stop whining, and pick up your oar.
Stop making up dream sequences and trying to convince us you are
better than the rest of us.

>>> And why are you continuing to insult me with the Bobbo Bull?
>>
>> Why do you continue to claim you are unable to sin?
>
>You are deliberately skewing context. Where is this walk in the light
>that you claim?

I TRY to walk in the light.
It is a chore.
You see, unlike you, I am human and have wants and desires.
I really like root beer floats, cherry pie, and M&Ms
I do not chuck everything and think about forgiveness 24 hours a day.

>Mike wrote:
>>>>> It is not a part time job, or a bell ringing, it is a state of being;
>>>>> forgiveness is only a part of it.
>
>Patrick wrote:
>>>> What is the rest of it?
>
>Mike wrote:
>>> A state of love, peace, joy, faith, hope, self-control, long-suffering,
>>> gentleness, goodness, meekness, submission, and whatever is of good report.
>>> "The religions of man "dominate" the comings and goings of the religious
>>> ways of sinful men; the ways of God, not so much."
>
>Patrick wrote:
>> I've already agreed to that.
>
>You asked the question, I answered the question.

Ok then.
Now we all know to stay away from religions.

>>> Patrick wrote:
>>>> That is where you are wrong... again.

>>>> God is well beyond my reach.

>>>> Jesus is well beyond my reach.
>>>> I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
>>>> I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
>>>> follow His footsteps in the "light."
>>>
>>> That is because you seek to walk in your own ways! My, my, my, when I
>>> read what you wrote again, "Did God declare those things or you?"
>>
>> I have common sense.
>
>So the answer is, you did.

I did what?
God is well beyond my reach.

Jesus is well beyond my reach.
I know I will never comprehend Who He is.
I can be satisfied with Words He left behind in order for me to try to
follow His footsteps in the "light."

>> I know I am not equal to God.
>> I know I will not "rule" with God as you said earlier.
>
>I don't know if you will or not. It depends of what you choose.

I do not have the authority to "choose" to rule with God.

>> I will never comprehend God, eternity, the universe.
>
>You declare an awful lot for someone who does not know, Patrick.

I declare what I know and what I think.
Isn't that what you do?
Oh - wait.... You know God and will rule with Him.

>> I will be satisfied to keep searching for answers.
>
>That is not satisfaction; nowhere near it. Satisfaction is knowing He
>is the answer.

You are a fool if you ever think you will ever know all the answers.
Let me say that again:
You are a fool if you ever think you will ever know all the answers.

>
>> And read Holy Scripture, and listen to wiser men than myself.
>
>Nice sentiment, but you are certainly a man of personal idealism a wise
>man would find hard to penetrate.

Speak for yourself.
Not any wise man.
I do not believe you qualify.

>By the grace of God, I go one better than reading the bible..."for thy
>testimonies are my meditation."

What does that even mean?

>This is what I tell, Bobbo the bible Magnificat (my great mate): He is
>not a book.

I read Holy Scripture, and listen to wiser men than myself.

>>> With God, all things are possible!
>>> How many times have you heard me say over the years - find the Lord's
>>> will in your daily life and DO IT, and He will lead you OUT of your
>>> flawed ways, and into His perfect Ways, His Light, His Will for your life.
>>
>> Can I hear an "AMEN!"
>
>I haven't from you in word and deed.

I'm sure I have said "Amen" once or twice in my life.

> I tell you, and anyone who will hear, not because it is Robert bible
>>> talk theology, but because I did it. And if I did it as a loser, any
>>> loser can do it.
>>> It all depends on your heart...heart for God.
>>
>> Well then, perhaps I should be satified that you have reached nirvana.
>
>Worldly lens, again.

It's all I have.
God hasn't lent me His glasses.

>> Nirvana is a place of perfect peace and happiness, like heaven. In
>> Hinduism and Buddhism, nirvana is the highest state that someone can
>> attain, a state of enlightenment, meaning a person's individual
>> desires and suffering go away.
>
>The Lord is not an "attainment", He is a Person.

I know.
AMEN.

>> If you have reached this place, good for you.
>> I merely have to ask why you sound like so many other televangelists
>> who make the same claim, and ask for my money, my prayers, etc.
>> I don't want to pay for your "holy water." I don't want you to place
>> my petitions on your altar and watch as you lay on top of them and
>> pray to your Lord and Savior.
>
>Worldly lens, again...mixed with contempt. You really need to take a
>different route.

I know.
AMEN.

>Change can only be brought about by God in response to a man's free will
>choice to receive Him. That has nothing to do with your little
>wonder-tally above.

I know.
AMEN.

>>> God, not important enough? Then don't bother with half-baked, it is a
>>> waste of time.
>>> God, important enough? Okay then. Let's go! Let's roll!
>>
>> Why did God put you here on earth?
>
>The same reason He put anyone here, to enter into a loving relationship
>with us.

I know.
AMEN.

>> Merely to praise Him, pray to Him, worship Him?
>
>To love Him; He wanted children, children that loved Him
>> God gave us life for a reason.
>> Don't pretend to be a Shaker and spend your entire life ignoring
>> people, places, things that He has awarded us.
>> (Shakerism has a message for this present age–a message as valid today
>> as when it was first expressed. It teaches above all else that God is
>> Love and that our most solemn duty is to show forth that God who is
>> love in the World.) The wisdom of their instructions, the purity of
>> their doctrine, their Christ-like deportment, and the simplicity of
>> their manners, all appeared truly apostolical.
>
>What is this, a model's runway?
>Sounds majestic, but the answer is given above.

I know.
AMEN.

>>>>>> Kindness is learned. And, to be kind, you must fight against human
>>>>>> nature.
>>>>>> That’s why kindness is so impressive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good point, and there is no greater kindness that what you find in God,
>>>>> of course; He is the source of kindness.
>>>>> That is one of the reasons I love Him so much. He was/is kind to me; I
>>>>> do not deserve His kindness. Dang it, you've got me all emotional!
>>>>> Thanks for that, and that is the kind of Patrick I much prefer to speak
>>>>> with.
>>>
>>>
>>>> All any of us can do is search for the Way, the Truth, and the Light.
>>>
>>> You will find it when you find Him.
>>
>> Reminds me of the joke.....
>> A drunk is wandering along the side of a river and comes accross a
>> bunch of people standing in waiste deep water, looking both sad and
>> happy. The drunk wanders out to them and they ask him about being
>> saved. A few grab the man and dunk him below the water. Then they
>> pull him up and asked if he has found Jesus. He says no. They dunk
>> him again... and again... Finally when he comes up, he asks "Are you
>> sure this is where he went in?"
>
>Hahahaha...good one.
>
>However, you will find the way, the truth, and the light, when you find
>Him, right?

Yup.

>>> If you can get hold of the movie "Swimming with Sharks" with Kevin
>>> Spacey and watch it, you'll understand what I have been saying. It is
>>> free on Amazon Prime Video in Australia, maybe in the states as well?
>>>
>>> Otherwise, don't bother.
>>> Free choice.
>>
>> I'll pass.
>
>Sure, you are not wasting my time.

If I decide to watch that movie, then you will consider that I haven't
wasted your time.????

[pyotr filipivich]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 6 Jan 2023
08:36:03 +1100 typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
following:

>
>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>
>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>
>Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>ask your club president...but you still won't know.

And yet, you too seem to unready "to give an answer to every man
that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and
fear". Have you tired so soon of speaking of your faith?

[Michael McLean]

On 10/01/2023 1:24 am, P+Barker wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
> over 600 lines.
> Ler's see how much I can stomach before I go fix breakfast.

I haven't got time for Barker attitude today.

Stomach that.







Mike

[Michael McLean]

On 10/01/2023 2:04 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 6 Jan 2023
> 08:36:03 +1100 typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
> following:
>>
>>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>>
>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>
>> Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>> ask your club president...but you still won't know.
>
> And yet, you too seem to unready "to give an answer to every man
> that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and
> fear". Have you tired so soon of speaking of your faith?

Oh glory Pyotr Flippers! :-).

Shut up, you wanker. I reasoned more that I needed to and more than he
deserved.





Mike

> --
> For many "I am spiritual, not religious".seems the short form of
> "I retain the option to adjust my beliefs to fit my lifestyle,
> nor be constrained by prior statements about what I said I believe."

[P+Barker]

On Tue, 10 Jan 2023 07:41:43 +1100, Michael McLean
<michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:

>On 10/01/2023 1:24 am, P+Barker wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> wrote:
>> over 600 lines.
>> Ler's see how much I can stomach before I go fix breakfast.
>
>I haven't got time for Barker attitude today.
>Stomach that.

pooh baby....
mikey is skeered of me.....

[pyotr filipivich]

Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Tue, 10 Jan 2023
07:45:22 +1100 typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>On 10/01/2023 2:04 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 6 Jan 2023
>> 08:36:03 +1100 typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
>> following:
>>>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>> Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>>> ask your club president...but you still won't know.
>> And yet, you too seem to unready "to give an answer to every man
>> that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and
>> fear". Have you tired so soon of speaking of your faith?
>
>Oh glory Pyotr Flippers! :-).

Ah, the old "see how clever I am being as insulting as I can?"
response.

If you don't really understand the subject ....

>
>Shut up, you wanker. I reasoned more that I needed to and more than he
>deserved.

Such a Christian response you've made.

I will take it as given that you too are one to blame those who
don't understand your pearls of wisdom for your failure to
communicate.

So now that I've confirmed that you really are not to be taken
seriously, back to the kill file for you

[Michael McLean]

On 11/01/2023 6:28 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Tue, 10 Jan 2023
> 07:45:22 +1100 typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> On 10/01/2023 2:04 am, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>>> Michael McLean <michaelm...@outlook.com> on Fri, 6 Jan 2023
>>> 08:36:03 +1100 typed in alt.religion.christian.east-orthodox the
>>> following:
>>>>>> However, the Lord will bring all things to account.
>>>>> What do you mean by a "state of forgiveness?"
>>>> Already explained, more than adequately. If you still don't know, go
>>>> ask your club president...but you still won't know.
>>> And yet, you too seem to unready "to give an answer to every man
>>> that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and
>>> fear". Have you tired so soon of speaking of your faith?
>>
>> Oh glory Pyotr Flippers! :-).
>
> Ah, the old "see how clever I am being as insulting as I can?"
> response.

I am merely pointing out your superior all-encompassing self-anointing.

>
> If you don't really understand the subject ....

And how blessed I am, I get it again.

>>
>> Shut up, you wanker. I reasoned more that I needed to and more than he
>> deserved.
>
> Such a Christian response you've made.

Oh, dear me, I haven't fitted into the glorious sinner moral standards!

This is shocking news!

I never seem to be able to reach the giddy heights of filthy, stinking,
whore, sinner standards of self-righteous religionists!

I am doomed!

>
> I will take it as given that you too are one to blame those who
> don't understand your pearls of wisdom for your failure to
> communicate.
>
> So now that I've confirmed that you really are not to be taken
> seriously, back to the kill file for you

Thank you for your glory.





Mike

>
> --
> For many "I am spiritual, not religious".seems the short form of
> "I retain the option to adjust my beliefs to fit my lifestyle,
> nor be constrained by prior statements about what I said I believe."

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Sun, 08 Jan 2023 00:32:53 -0800

typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>On Jan 7, 2023, pyotr filipivich wrote

>> Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Thu, 18 Aug 2022 19:55:24 -0700
>> typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
>> > There is no Apostles Creed to be found in scripture.
>> > There is no Nicene Creed of any variant to be found in scripture.
>>
>> Yowza! Yet another boldfaced assertion about how "mission
>> statements" are obviously unbiblical. (Is funny, a previous poster
>> said the Creed was full of errors and imports from paganism. When
>> pressed on the issue, it finally came out that he objected to the
>> phrase "one baptism for the remission of sin" because that he
>> disagreed with. As the saying goes "It is not _your_ creed, it is The
>> Church's creed.")
>
>When these religious people are asked what creed version of the Nicene Creed,
>they waffle and dance and do not want to be nailed down to one. Makes it very
>hard to discuss anything about it, as it is all man made and varies.
>
>That, pyotr, is hitting the nail on the head. Thank you!
>It is not my creed.
>It is not your creed.
>It is not the creed of God, nor his Son.
>It IS the Church's creed.
>Which is what I have been claiming all along.

And of course, because something is not Robert's beliefs, he
declares it a tradition of men. as he does with everything other than
the canon of the New Testament. But he also denies that there was any
kind of apostolic teaching despite what is written in the New
Testament
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word, were baptized, and
the same day there were added to the Church about three thousand
souls. And they continued in the Apostles’ doctrine[1], and
fellowship, and breaking of bread, and prayers.
43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were
done by the Apostles.
[1] i.e., the teaching of the apostles of what Jesus had taught them.

>>
>> Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
>> Testament, that the New Testament did all its growing despite not
>> having a New Testament to refer to.
>
>But of course! Thank you.
>Jesus showed the Apostles where he was to be found in the OT scriptures.
>(Inspired by God)
>The Prophecies of Jesus are woven throughout the OT. (All inspired by God)
>The NT likewise is all inspired by God.

And yet, the writings which became the New Testament were not
collected until years after they were written, decades after the
(non-existent) primitive church had expanded out from Jerusalem "into
all the world". Oh, and had followed the pattern established by the
apostles of appointing local overseers charged with faithfully
teaching what they had been taught.

Why yes I do. The issue remains Robert find all this "very
clear", yet at the same time are appalled if any would state it in a
much simpler and explicit manner.

>
>Religions Argue about these things as do many here within these NG's.
>>
>>
>> Now as we can all see, that is so much longer than the "short form"
>> known as the Nicene-Constantinople statement of beliefs:
>> ^v
>> I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,
>> and of all things visible and invisible.
>>
>> And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten
>> of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God,
>> begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all
>> things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from
>> heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and
>> became man.
>
>Incarnate is not implied in scripture. Quite the error there.
>> He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered
>> and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the
>> Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of
>> the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and
>> dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
>>
>> And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds
>> from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is
>> worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.

Quote from above "Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20;
Ezekiel 11: 5, 13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)"

>
>Not taught in the high religions.

"high" religions?

>>
>>
>> In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
>Not taught in scripture.

Except as quoted above: (Robert must have missed that part)

Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon
this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.

I Peter 2: 5,9 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual
house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. ... But ye are a chosen generation,
a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should
shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into
his marvellous light:

Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 2: 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and
fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers
Ephesians 2: 19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household
of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in
whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an
habitation of God through the Spirit.

Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

in sum: Robert doesn't believe in a universal early church, united in
its teaching and belief, open and applicable to all, set aside for
God's purposes. Despite what is shown in the scriptures.

>>
>>
>> I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
>
>Total error here. Not found in scripture. Jesus said, I am the way, and there
>is no other.

Did you leave this out of your edition: Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one
faith, one baptism.

>> I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to
>> come.
>Dead saints or pagans. All are resurrected. Where is the clarity.

Sorry Robert but "resurrection of the dead" is usually understood
to mean all: saints and stranger, Jews and Gentiles, Cradle and
Converts, believers and non-believers.

Mark 10: 29-30 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you,
There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or
father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and
the gospel’s, 30 but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,
houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and
lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

Matt25: 31-32 “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the
holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
And before Him shall be gathered all _nations_, and He shall separate
them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.
[Emphasis added]

Note well: If you were a Jew, you knew that all nations refers to
those not Jewish. I'd say the scriptures do point to a universal
resurrection, believers and non-believers.
So yes "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the
age to come."

>> Amen.
>(So be it) one is expected to adhere to those doctrines or be counted a heretic.

Whoosh. The Obstinate Ignorance of Protestants can be quite
astounding. Sigh, what can I say, Robert stumbles over the truth,
picks himself up, and veers off on tangents.

On occasion, I have wondered if one of the "no creed but Jesus"
sorts would take communion with someone who though Jesus was an
avatar, or a created being, or _a_ deity, or just a good teacher. For
they do seem bound and determine to insist that defining their beliefs
would be, umm, heresy?

>>
>> ==== end cut and paste
>>
>> Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
>> the various letters of the early church, the Apostles had faithfully
>> taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
>> others.
>
>The Diadache is not scripture.
>>
>>
>> > Why is that?
>>
>> The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
>> in The Church.
>> The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
>> the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
>> of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
>> only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
>> Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
>> essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«
>
>Canonize a creed considered to be authorized and written by a pagan
>Constantine and the bishops he called to the conference? Is it acceptable
>that those of Belial and "God" be associated one with the other?

Is Robert going to go out on a limb ad reject priori anything
associated with the Roman Emperor? Why yes, he certainly appears that
way.
Despite having presented to him Scripture citations for each line,
and accepting those citations, he then continues to deny that the
statements have a biblical foundation.
But of course, for him, everything which happened prior to him
finding a book "just happened to other people" and is the traditions
of men.

>>
>> Why was that thought so important?
>> Because someone influential was teaching something quite
>> different, namely that Jesus was not co-eternal wit the Father, but
>> was a created being. The cynical answer is that Constantine called
>> the council because he was discovering that there was conflict in the
>> Church he was hoping would unify the Empire. Regardless of why, the
>> Emperor provided transportation for bishops from "all over the world"
>> to come and settle this issue. And they _found_ that the consensus of
>> what they were teaching could be expressed in what is called the
>> Symbol of The Faith. (It is known as "the Creed" from the first words
>> in Latin "Credo" - I believe.)
>
>Yet the creed says "We Believe" Something I addressed within the last couple
>weeks.

As has he has taken great pains to show, Robert is not one of the
"We"included in that statement. His choice.

>> But all that is probably more information than "Dr Who" can
>> handle.
>Dr. Who discussed this all around 20 years ago, However, I am glad to see you
>finally having the courage to state your beliefs as well as quote scripture
>that you have argued is Invalid.

Oh dear, Robert you've returned to you confusion. Oh well, he is
the one with the reading comprehension problem.

It is funny however. Robert can read all those scripture
citations, and then say that the Orthodox Church doesn't believe the
Bible.
--
pyotr filipivich
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
[Book of Proverbs. Chapter 26: Verses 4 & 5]
Decisions, Decisions, decisions...

[Dr. Who]

On Feb 3, 2023, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<864rthtqotbrfnffc...@4ax.com>):

False statements on your part in everything you stated.

>
> Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word, were baptized, and
> the same day there were added to the Church about three thousand
> souls. And they continued in the Apostles’ doctrine[1], and
> fellowship, and breaking of bread, and prayers.
> 43 And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were
> done by the Apostles.
> [1] i.e., the teaching of the apostles of what Jesus had taught them.

Were the teaching of men or of God? Think about it. What is written in
scripture is it inspired of God or stuff made up by men.

>
> > > Anyway, as has been pointed out before, it is obvious from the New
> > > Testament, that the New Testament did all its growing despite not
> > > having a New Testament to refer to.
> >
> > But of course! Thank you.
> > Jesus showed the Apostles where he was to be found in the OT scriptures.
> > (Inspired by God)
> > The Prophecies of Jesus are woven throughout the OT. (All inspired by God)
> > The NT likewise is all inspired by God.
>
> And yet, the writings which became the New Testament were not
> collected until years after they were written, decades after the
> (non-existent) primitive church had expanded out from Jerusalem "into
> all the world". Oh, and had followed the pattern established by the
> apostles of appointing local overseers charged with faithfully
> teaching what they had been taught.

Was the “Body of Christ” ever primitive? No.
Was the ekklesia (the body of Christ, not what you call Church) ever
primitive? No
Is “the pattern” of men or established by God? For the ekklesia. No.
Is the foundation of the ekklesia based on the works that the Apostles did?
Yes.
Were these works of men of or God? God, performed by the Faith of God..
We are to do as the Lord leads. Working together in the Lord.

Then if you understood them, why did you use them to support something that
you do not believe, or follow?

>
> >
> > Religions Argue about these things as do many here within these NG's.
> > >
> > >
> > > Now as we can all see, that is so much longer than the "short form"
> > > known as the Nicene-Constantinople statement of beliefs:
> > > ^v
> > > I believe in one God, Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth,
> > > and of all things visible and invisible.
> > >
> > > And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten
> > > of the Father before all ages; Light of Light, true God of true God,
> > > begotten, not created, of one essence with the Father through Whom all
> > > things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from
> > > heaven and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and
> > > became man.
> >
> > Incarnate is not implied in scripture. Quite the error there.
> > > He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered
> > > and was buried; And He rose on the third day, according to the
> > > Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of
> > > the Father; And He will come again with glory to judge the living and
> > > dead. His kingdom shall have no end.
> > >
> > > And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Creator of life, Who proceeds
> > > from the Father, Who together with the Father and the Son is
> > > worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets.
>
> Quote from above "Who spoke through the prophets; (I Samuel 19: 20;
> Ezekiel 11: 5, 13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)"

IOW’s it was God speaking. Do you get it yet?

>
>
> >
> > Not taught in the high religions.
>
> "high" religions?

What the RCC and the Big “O” claim.

>
> > >
> > >
> > > In one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church.
> > Not taught in scripture.
>
> Except as quoted above: (Robert must have missed that part)

The only thing I may have missed is your chosen misperception.

>
> Matthew 16: 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon
> this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
> prevail against it.

It was not ON Peter, but the rock Christ Jesus. Which you have been shown
time and time again.

>
>
> I Peter 2: 5,9 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual
> house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
> acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. ... But ye are a chosen generation,
> a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should
> shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into
> his marvellous light:
>
> Mark 16: 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
> preach the gospel to every creature.
>
> Acts 2: 42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and
> fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers

Act 2:42(42-47) And they were giving constant attention to the teaching of
the apostles and to that which they held in common with them, and to the
breaking of the bread and to the gatherings where prayers to God were
offered. And a reverential fear came upon every soul. And many miracles that
excited amazement and attesting miracles were performed by the apostles. And
all those who believed were gathered together as a unit and were holding all
things in joint-participation, and were selling their houses and lands and
other possessions and kept on distributing them to all, according as anyone
was having a need. And daily they continued to remain in the temple, in
perfect unanimity, breaking bread at home, partaking of food together in
gladness and simplicity of heart, praising God and having the good will of
the people. And the Lord kept on adding to them daily those who were being
saved.

Why did I paste this in? To show you that the old English word “doctrine"
meant teaching, in the day it was translated. To put it simply, there is the
teachings of God, the teachings of men, and the teachings or religion. Such
as the RCC, the Big O, Baptist, lutheran, etc. The Word “Doctrine” as
used today is almost the equivalent to the Commandments of the OT.

The doctrines of Plato are the principles which he taught. Hence a doctrine
may be true or false; it may be a mere tenet or opinion.

>
> Ephesians 2: 19-22 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
> foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household
> of God; 20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and
> prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 in
> whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy
> temple in the Lord: 22 in whom ye also are builded together for an
> habitation of God through the Spirit.

Peter was not the chief corner stone. These scriptures are saying what I
said, above.

>
>
> Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

And Just exactly what does that verse mean to you? Can you even answer that,
or will you ignore it as you usually do?

>
> in sum: Robert doesn't believe in a universal early church, united in
> its teaching and belief, open and applicable to all, set aside for
> God's purposes. Despite what is shown in the scriptures.

There is no universal church as you describe it. The church consists of Born
Again, Spirit filled believers. While it is open to all people, they each
must decide to Follow Jesus, His way. Otherwise they are not a part of it.
Something that you appear not to subscribe to.

>
> > >
> > >
> > > I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
> >
> > Total error here. Not found in scripture. Jesus said, I am the way, and

> > There is no other.

>
> Did you leave this out of your edition: Ephesians 4:5 one Lord, one
> faith, one baptism.

I have no “edition”. Again I ask, what does this mean to you?

>
>
> > > I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to
> > > come.
> > Dead saints or pagans. All are resurrected. Where is the clarity.
>
> Sorry Robert but "resurrection of the dead" is usually understood
> to mean all: saints and stranger, Jews and Gentiles, Cradle and
> Converts, believers and non-believers.

Not for the resurrection that takes place at the beginning of the
Tribulation. Nor for the other resurrections that take place prior to the
return of the Lord to rule the earth for 1,000 years. Then comes the
resurrection of all that remains.

>
> Mark 10: 29-30 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you,
> There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or
> father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and
> the gospel’s, 30 but he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time,
> houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and
> lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
>
> Matt25: 31-32 “When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the
> holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory.
> And before Him shall be gathered all _nations_, and He shall separate
> them one from another as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats.
> [Emphasis added]

*shall be gathered*. There is no resurrection here. Therefore no reference to
Revelation 20, The gathering is to be on earth (Isa 34:1-2, Joe 3:1-2; Joe
3:11-12). There are three classes, not two. The test is not even "works," but
the treatment of the "brethren" by the other two. No believer, i.e. those who
"received the word" (Act 2:41, 1Th 2:13): for these were (and will yet be)
"taken out of all nations" (Act 15:14): Israel not gathered here, because
"not reckoned among the nations" (Num 23:9). The Church of the Mystery
(Ephesians 3) not here, because the reward here is "from the foundation of
the world" (Mat 25:34); while the Church was chosen "before" that (Eph 1:4).
The "throne" is that of David (Luk 1:32)

>
> Note well: If you were a Jew, you knew that all nations refers to
> those not Jewish. I'd say the scriptures do point to a universal
> resurrection, believers and non-believers.

All nations refers to all peoples, races.

>
> So yes "I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the
> age to come."

But that will not happen until at the end of the Millennial rule of Christ.

>
> > > Amen.
> > (So be it) one is expected to adhere to those doctrines or be counted a
> > heretic.
>
> Whoosh. The Obstinate Ignorance of Protestants can be quite
> astounding. Sigh, what can I say, Robert stumbles over the truth,
> picks himself up, and veers off on tangents.
>
> On occasion, I have wondered if one of the "no creed but Jesus"
> sorts would take communion with someone who though Jesus was an
> avatar, or a created being, or _a_ deity, or just a good teacher. For
> they do seem bound and determine to insist that defining their beliefs
> would be, umm, heresy?

Sad to say is the simple fact that your priests have not mentored you well,
if at all.
Creeds are used as a de-facto line of separation between religious truth and
heresy, and based upon creeds millions have been murdered.

We are to follow Jesus the Messiah, not some set in stone religious doctrine
of men as established via historic tradition.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Christianity/Church-tradition

>
> > >
> > > ==== end cut and paste
> > >
> > > Of course there was no formal "creed" - aside from the Diadache,
> > > the various letters of the early church, the Apostles had faithfully
> > > taught to faithful men, that they would faithfully teach
> > > others.
> >
> > The Diadache is not scripture.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Why is that?
> > >
> > > The short form: there was unity of teaching, practice, and belief
> > > in The Church.
> > > The Nicene Creed was written to "canonize the obvious". This is
> > > the True Faith, this is what faithful men have taught since the time
> > > of the apostles. Specifically »one Lord Jesus Christ, the
> > > only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages;
> > > Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not created, of one
> > > essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made.«
> >
> > Canonize a creed considered to be authorized and written by a pagan
> > Constantine and the bishops he called to the conference? Is it acceptable
> > that those of Belial and "God" be associated one with the other?
>
> Is Robert going to go out on a limb ad reject priori anything
> associated with the Roman Emperor? Why yes, he certainly appears that
> way.

It is well documented that your Roman Emperor did not believe in Jesus, and
it was not until he lay on his death bed and was given his last rites by his
pagan priest that he then requested a Catholic priest to give him his last
rites from that church. He never gave up his pagan beliefs at any time.

>
> Despite having presented to him Scripture citations for each line,
> and accepting those citations, he then continues to deny that the
> statements have a biblical foundation.

I again commented on the scriptures you quoted, as you have dismissed every
other time I have commented on them, and without acknowledging that you did
so, and you also ignored every question posed to you in order to continue
your diatribe without regards to truth and understanding, or even discussion
of the same.

>
> But of course, for him, everything which happened prior to him
> finding a book "just happened to other people" and is the traditions
> of men.

Check the link given about regarding Britannica's understanding of it. Just
to let you know, I did not author that section of it either.

>
> > >
> > > Why was that thought so important?
> > > Because someone influential was teaching something quite
> > > different, namely that Jesus was not co-eternal wit the Father, but
> > > was a created being. The cynical answer is that Constantine called
> > > the council because he was discovering that there was conflict in the
> > > Church he was hoping would unify the Empire. Regardless of why, the
> > > Emperor provided transportation for bishops from "all over the world"
> > > to come and settle this issue. And they _found_ that the consensus of
> > > what they were teaching could be expressed in what is called the
> > > Symbol of The Faith. (It is known as "the Creed" from the first words
> > > in Latin "Credo" - I believe.)
> >
> > Yet the creed says "We Believe" Something I addressed within the last couple
> > weeks.
>
> As has he has taken great pains to show, Robert is not one of the
> "We"included in that statement. His choice.

Again you fail to comprehend the thoughts and understandings of others.

Because I do not ascribe to some religion that you could attack from a
Orthodox religious standpoint, you make me the focus of your diatribes while
totally missing the understandings of even the scriptures that you quote.

Did you know it is wrong to swear by a Creed? That it is displeasing to God?

>
>
> > > But all that is probably more information than "Dr Who" can
> > > handle.
> > Dr. Who discussed this all around 20 years ago, However, I am glad to see
> > you finally having the courage to state your beliefs as well as quote scripture
> > that you have argued is Invalid.
>
> Oh dear, Robert you've returned to you confusion. Oh well, he is
> the one with the reading comprehension problem.
>
> It is funny however. Robert can read all those scripture
> citations, and then say that the Orthodox Church doesn't believe the
> Bible.

Not only do they not believe the Bible, they do not believe in the God of the
Bible. Not all go them, but most.

Sure they admit to the names of God, even that he exists, but that is the
limit of most of them. They have a form of worship but deny the power
thereof.

[pyotr filipivich]

Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Fri, 03 Feb 2023 17:59:45 -0800

typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:

>> > Yet the creed says "We Believe" Something I addressed within the last couple
>> > weeks.
>> As has he has taken great pains to show, Robert is not one of the
>> "We"included in that statement. His choice.
>
>Again you fail to comprehend the thoughts and understandings of others.

Oh. Are you now accepting the meaning of scripture as posted
before? And want to count your self in as one of the "We"?
Or are you going to continue to dance around that whatever it is
you believe, it is not what has been believed and taught since
Pentecost.?

>
>Because I do not ascribe to some religion that you could attack from a
>Orthodox religious standpoint, you make me the focus of your diatribes while
>totally missing the understandings of even the scriptures that you quote.

It is to laugh. Robert once against claims that he, and he alone,
has the One True Proper Interpretation of the Scriptures. Never mind
what has been understood for the almost two thousand years before he
came along "that all just something which happened to other people."

>
>Did you know it is wrong to swear by a Creed? That it is displeasing to God?

And of course you have a scripture verse for that.

The issues remains: you do not accept the teachings outlined in
the statement of what Christians believe. You have this odd notion
that to have a "mission statement" is somehow ungodly.
It would be lubricous, but
--
pyotr
After the war two Army Chaplains were mustering out. The one said to
the other "Chaplain, it has been a real pleasure serving God with you.
You in your way, and I in His."

[Dr. Who]

On Feb 23, 2023, pyotr filipivich wrote
(in article<90dfvhls8ckvrg1vs...@4ax.com>):

> Dr. Who <dr....@biosphere.orb> on Fri, 03 Feb 2023 17:59:45 -0800
> typed in alt.christnet.christianlife the following:
> > > > Yet the creed says "We Believe" Something I addressed within the last
> > > > couple weeks.
> > > As has he has taken great pains to show, Robert is not one of the
> > > "We"included in that statement. His choice.
> >
> > Again you fail to comprehend the thoughts and understandings of others.
>
> Oh. Are you now accepting the meaning of scripture as posted
> before? And want to count your self in as one of the "We"?
> Or are you going to continue to dance around that whatever it is
> you believe, it is not what has been believed and taught since
> Pentecost.?

The fact that you asked such a foolish question show proof of what I said.
What did I say?

That you failed again to comprehend the thoughts and understandings of
others.
>
> >

> > Because I do not ascribe to some religion that you could attack from a
> > Orthodox religious standpoint, you make me the focus of your diatribes while
> > totally missing the understandings of even the scriptures that you quote.
>
> It is to laugh. Robert once against claims that he, and he alone,
> has the One True Proper Interpretation of the Scriptures. Never mind
> what has been understood for the almost two thousand years before he
> came along "that all just something which happened to other people."

Show me, or anyone here, where I have said such a thing.

>
> >
> > Did you know it is wrong to swear by a Creed? That it is displeasing to God?
>
> And of course you have a scripture verse for that.

“But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither
by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your
nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.” (Jas 5:12, KJV)

“Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou
shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But
I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is
the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because
thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be,
Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.” (Mat
5:33-37, KJV)

>
>
> The issues remains: you do not accept the teachings outlined in
> the statement of what Christians believe. You have this odd notion
> that to have a "mission statement" is somehow ungodly.
> It would be lubricous, but

But what?

How many times have creeds which have been drafted by men been changed? Do
you swear by one or all of them?

IAE you have the thoughts of Jesus given to you, just above.