IF CHRIST HAS NOT COME!
Pastor Dave
If Christ Has Not Come!
by Richard McPherson
In this article Richard McPherson looks at some of the grave
problems created when we postpone the Second Coming
beyond the first century. If Christ has not come, the Bible
is a false book and God lied!
PP's = Partial Preterists
FP = Full Preterist
This article is about the Second Coming of Christ. The main
ideas came from an article by Todd Dennis �New Testament
Realized Eschatology�. We will look at each one and see if
the Bible is a true book and if God knows what he is talking
about. Does God know how to tell time? The answer to
that question is �yes�, because He is the creator of time.
The time statements in the Bible, which is �God-breathed�
or �inspired�, are written in a way that man is able to
understand. A �generation� is always used as 40 years
and 40 years is 40 years in man�s time and a long time
means a long time and �soon� means �soon�. To change
the meaning of a text is a way of saying that God CAN NOT
express Himself or He does not really understand what
He is saying. The Bible is not a book of hidden codes.
Throughout this article, pretend that we are with those
first century people that heard or read what was written.
What were they thinking when they first heard or saw those
words. Gentry�s comments about the book �The Parousia�,
by James Russell says this; �Although I do not agree with
all the conclusion of J. Stuart Russell, I highly recommend
this well-organized, carefully argued and compellingly
written defense of Preterism to serous and mature students
of the Bible. It is one of the most persuasive and
challenging books I have read on the subject of eschatology
and have had a great impact on my own thinking. Russell�s
biblicotheological study of New Testament eschatology set
a standard of excellence�. My question to Mr. Gentry is
this; "What scripture did Russell use that was taken out
of context? If all the scriptures were in context, then
what conclusion is the correct conclusion?". He never
states what text that Russell used was taken out of context.
R.C. Sproul puts it this way, �The issues raised with the
respect to the time-frame references of the New Testament
to the Parousia are vitally important not only for
eschatology, but for the future debate over the credibility
of Sacred Scripture.�. Mr. Sproul looks beyond the creeds
and traditions and looks at the scriptures for truth.
I know he is not a Full Preterist, but at least he really is
studying the word for truth. His son might learn from
his father so he want make the same mistakes. If God
said it, then it has to be true. Also in this article, our
beliefs and teachings have consequences. Why do
Partial Preterists and Futurists teach and believe one thing
and the Bible teaches just the opposite? Which is more
important, to believe God, or creeds and traditions by men?
They would answer that question by saying, �God�. Their
actions speak louder that their words. I am not putting
down any particular person or their relationship with God,
just their belief and the consequences it may have.
Talk is cheap and action speaks volumes.
The names mentioned in this article are by no means denying
their love for God, but I do have to question their beliefs
and motives. In preaching one thing while the Bible says
another, there is a BIG problem. The problem is not what
they are saying, but what they are not saying. I question
the type of �God� they worship. In their belief their God
is someone that is confused, forgetful and strange. Their
actions speak louder than their words! Some of their
beliefs in God and who Jesus is needs to be questioned.
(1) If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting
to be where he is.
John 14:3 �And I go and prepare a place for you, I will come
back and take you to be with me that you also may be where
I am.�
John 14:18 �I will not leave you as orphans; I will come
to you.�
John 14:28 �You heard me say, �I am going away and
I am coming back to you.� If you loved me, you would
be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is
greater than I."
Every time a person dies, you hear the preacher say that
the deceased person has gone to be with Jesus. What he
is saying, is that Jesus in not here with us on this earth.
You have to die in order to be with Jesus. At the same
time, you hear the same preacher say in his sermons that
Jesus is here. Which one is it? Is He here or in Heaven
with the Father? Futurists teach something that is really
funny. They teach that when a person dies the spirit
goes back to the Father and the body turns back to dust
from hence it was made. When Jesus returns on the
clouds the spirit that is in Heaven returns back to the
body and then the physical body is then raised from
the grave and start flying in the air to be with Jesus
so it can be changed back into the form it was before
and enters back into heaven. Some even teach that when
a person dies the spirit goes back to God in Heaven to be
with Jesus and when Jesus returns to the earth from Heaven
to set up His kingdom, all of those people that were with
Jesus, are no longer with Him, because Jesus is on the
earth and they are still in Heaven.
(2) If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting
for the plan of redemption to be fulfilled.
Revelation 10:7 �But in the days when the seventh angel is
about to (mello) sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will
be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the
prophets.�
Ephesians 4:30 �And do no grieve the Holy Spirit of God,
with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.�
How many times have you heard in sermons that we have
been redeemed? There is even a songs about it, �Redeemed,
How I Love To Proclaim It", "Since I Have Been Redeemed",
"Victory In Jesus� just to name a few. If the first century
Christians were waiting to be redeemed, then we should
be waiting to be redeemed if Jesus has not returned,
in order to be consistent with the Bible. Futurists and
Partial Preterists here is a question for you. What and
when is the �day of redemption�? Why do you teach
something that goes against the word of God?
See comments: #3 and #12.
(3) If Christ has not come, then we are still waiting
to be individually redeemed from our sins.
Luke 21:28 �When these things begin to take place, stand up
and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing
near.�
Colossians 1:13-14 �For he has rescued us from the dominion
of darkness (the Law, Old Covenant) and brought us into the
kingdom of the Son he loves, in whom we have redemption
for forgiveness of sins.
Paul wrote Colossians somewhere around 60 AD. That
is ten years before 70 AD. Then why did Paul write this
in past tense? Paul knew of the closeness of the coming
of Christ and all the things that will follow. John did
the same thing in 1 John 2:8. ��.because the darkness
is passing and the true light is already shining�. The
Apostles were expecting the coming of Christ in their
lifetime. The �darkness� in Paul�s text is the same
darkness in John�s letter. Both are talking about
the same thing.
See comments: #2 and #14. In Luke 21:28,
this has to be 70 AD, because of two reasons:
1) It is before the verse 32,�..this generation will
certainly not pass away until all these things have
happened.�
2) If PP's believe that Matthew 24:1-34 is 70 AD then
to be consistent they must believe that this is 70 AD.
Futurists are still waiting for redemption to happen and
if this is true then we are not forgiven from our sins and
the law is still intact. See comments: #5. Jack Van Impe,
Tim LaHaye, Chuck Smith better get their act together,
because beliefs like that have very serious consequences!
(4) If Christ has not come, then we are still in
the "last days" 1900 years later.
Hebrews 1:1-2 �In the past God spoke to our forefathers
through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son,
whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom
he made the universe.�
Acts 2:16-20 �Now this is what was spoken by the prophet
Joel; �In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit
on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your
young men will see visions your old men will dream dreams.
Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out
my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will
show wonders I the heavens above and signs on the earth
below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will
be turned to darkness and the moon to blood, before the
coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.�
If we are still in the �last days�, where are the signs and
wonders? Who is prophesying today? PP's say that we
are living in the last days, but without prophesy, signs
and wonders. You can not have one without the other!
Everything goes hand in hand. This also goes against
this text, but Matthew 24:29, which they believe is part
of 70 AD, because it is before the break verse 34.
Here is a example that one belief is not consistent with
another belief. PP, what you are really saying is that God
does not have a clue what He is saying. You are twisting
scripture to make it fit your creeds, belief or statements
of faith. Futurists on the other hand like Tim LaHaye and
Jack Van Impe, believe that we are still in the �last days�
and the last part of verse 16 -20 is still waiting to happen
literally. Benny Hinn and others are so far off from
Scripture that they contradict themselves, every time
they open their mouth!
I have even seen a web page that is a FP and they believe
that the miraculous gifts are still here. Scripture should
be our FINIAL authority! It says they have ceased, and
that they have ceased with no questions asked.
See comments: #7.
(5) If Christ has not come, not one jot or tittle has passed
from the Law.
Matthew 5:17-18 �Do not think that I have come to abolish
the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them
but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and
earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least
stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from
the Law, until everything is accomplished.�
PP's and Futurists have a hard time explaining this one.
It clearly states that heaven and earth will disappear,
(Matthew 24:35, Mark 13:31, Luke 21:33), before
the Law will disappear. It even says that �everything�
must be accomplished before the Law will disappear.
That �everything� is all of the prophecies about Christ
in the Old Testament. If there is just one thing left
then we, today, should be under the Law. Futurists teach
that Matthew 24 is all future. This includes Matthew 24:15.
If that is true, we should be under the Law of Moses today!
PP's and Futurists teach that we are under the law of
Christ, but the Bible says something else. You want
to take the Bible literally? Then take this one literally!
You might want to rethink you beliefs on this one!
Did heaven and earth disappear (Yes or No)? Has
everything in the Law and Prophets been fulfilled
(Yes or No)? A �No� answer to any of these questions
brings about some problems. Look at the phrase,
�I tell you the truth�. Jesus (God) is telling the truth
or He is lying. See comments on number 15. Your
beliefs have consequences. In Like 16:17 it says,
�It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than
for the least stoke of a pen to drop out of the Law�.
(6) If Christ has not come, then some Christians
are quite aged.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Note who is being spoken to in the following verses.
It doesn't say; "And if you read this thousands of
years later, don't worry, because I was really ignoring
those I spoke/wrote to, because I was really talking
to you, in the 21st century.". These were written
TO PEOPLE! So as requested at the beginning of
this article, please put yourselves in the place of
those who first heard/read the statements and
see how it reads then and what you would have
thought. Was the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles
all wrong, but you're right? Isn't that just vain ego?!
Imagine saying that we are right and the Lord and
His Apostles, whom He inspired to write the Scriptures,
were wrong and then in the same breath, telling
someone that the Bible is infallible and can be trusted!
C'mon, folks! We know better! :)
Anyway...
------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 16:27-28 �For the Son of Man is going to
(Gr. "mello" = "about to") come in his Father�s glory
with his angels, and then he will reward each person
according to what he has done. I tell you the truth,
some who are standing here will not taste death
before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
Jesus was talking to his disciples.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 �May God himself, the God of peace,
sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit,
soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ."
Paul was talking to Christians in Thessalonica.
1 Corinthians 15:51) �Listen, I tell you a mystery:
We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed.�
Paul was talking to Christians in Corinth.
* Mark 14:62 ��..And you will see the Son of Man sitting
at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the
clouds of heaven�. Jesus is talking to the high priest
(Caiaphas, Matthew 26:57), teachers of the law, elders.
* Revelation 1:7 �Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him; even those who pierce him
and all people of the earth will morn because of him.
So shall it be Amen."
* Hebrews 9:11 "But Christ having come a high priest
of the good things to come, through the greater and more
perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say,
not of this creation...�
These scriptures clearly state that there were certain
people would be alive when Jesus would return.
Tim LaHaye and Chuck Smith teach that Matthew 16:27-28
are talking about things that will happen a week later
(chapter 17). Mr. LaHaye and Mr. Smith, what do the
Scriptures say? Don�t you believe the Bible, God�s Word?
Here are some problems with that teaching. In context
chapter 17 is definitely not talking about the Mount of
Transfiguration!
1.) Which disciple died during that week between
the time Jesus said it and the Transfiguration?
2.) Where did Jesus go that the disciples did not
see Him for a week?
3.) Where were the angels in chapter 17?
They are in Matthew 24:31.
4.) Was there a judgment that happens a week later
(Chapter 17)?
5.) Did the �kingdom� come a week later?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6) Did Jesus come with His Father's angels a week later?
7) Did Jesus "reward every man according to his worls"
a week later?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A �No� to any of these questions puts a big whole in that
teaching! Since all PP's (understand that there are some
PP's that put this text Matthew 16:27-28 with 70 AD) and
all Futurists teach that Christ has NOT come, then according
to Scripture, there must be a very old person still living!
What kind of God do you know?! A God that means what
He says or one that forgets what He says. Start teaching
the truth, instead of a lie!
There is another teaching that says this is talking about
Pentecost in Acts 2. There are problems with that teaching.
Look in Acts 1, there you have Jesus ascending into Heaven
(1:9-11) and also in that chapter the Apostles chose
(you could say that God chose) by casting lots (1:15-26).
In Acts 2, you have the Holy Spirit coming with power 2:2-4)
and then Peter addressing the crowd of people (2:14-40).
Here are the problems:
1) Where are the angels?
2) Where is the judgment? in verse 40, Peter said,
"Save yourselves from this corrupt generation."
3) Is this the "kingdom" that was promised? If it was,
then Paul through the Holy Spirit, which is the same
Holy Spirit that was there on Pentecost, forgot, because
in 2 Timothy 4:1 Jesus' appearing and His kingdom are
linked together and will happen at the same time.
* added by RKM
(7) If Christ has not come, then the charismatic gifts
(tongues, prophecy, etc.) are still in effect.
1 Corinthians 13:8-10 �Love never fails. But where there
are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues,
they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass
away, For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
but when the perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.�
* Ephesians 4:11-13 �It was he who gave some to be apostles,
some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be
pastors (shepherds, elders) and teachers, to prepare God�s
people for works of service, so that the body of Christ my
be build up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the
knowledge of he Son of God and become mature, attaining
the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.�
The first text is quite simple to understand. There were
tongues, prophecy, and healings until when? The perfection
comes. The perfect being, Jesus, coming in 70 AD.
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
Abortion = 1 dead, 1 wounded.
Ike E 11/16/09
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:j3ukg59eroht8podl...@4ax.com...
>
> If Christ Has Not Come!
Here goes Pester, having another spam-inducing hissy-fit 'cause no one is
paying attention to him.
Nevermind that ALL of this crap has been torn up before.
[snip]
Ike
::: Jesus is LORD :::
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to
the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be
distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced
by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen not very
long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitians`s
reign." (Against Heresies, v.xxx.3)
This was written by Irenaeus (120-202 AD) who was an early church
father and who wrote the above in 180 AD.
PRETERISM (preached by some in ACC) IS A LIE!
Jesus did not come back in 70 AD.
"Pastor" Dave ananias917_@_gmail.com wrote in
> If Christ Has Not Come!
> by Richard McPherson
>
>
> In this article Richard McPherson looks
Okay, let him look, and stop talking garbage.
--
___________________________________________________
http://www.acc-growing-deeper.de
http://the-beauty-of-the-psalms.blogspot.com
http://jesus-christ-is-my-lord-and-my-god.blogspot.com
http://bible-prophecy-and-revelation.blogspot.com/
Ike E 11/23/9
" ::: Jesus is LORD :::" <jesus-...@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:7mvetaF...@mid.individual.net...
[snip]
> PRETERISM (preached by some in ACC) IS A LIE!
Yes, but so is Dispensationalism.
Missing week?
Please.
Try "missing 70 years," just like seven prophecies say.
Rapture?
Give me a break.
Try "gathering of the Remnant," just like Jesus and the boys said.
Front-loaded Gospel?
Not a chance.
Try "whosoever shall endure TO THE END shall be saved."
And so on, and so forth.
[snip]
Ike
Wild Bill
"Ike E 11/23/9" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:hee50t$gmq$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
And as Ike has determined the Bible to be, that's the way it is, folks!
(tongue in cheek). Now, don't try to argue with him, cause that just gets
his ego flared up something fierce!
>
> [snip]
>
> Ike
>
Ike E 11/23/9
"Wild Bill" <bils...@daytonwa.net> wrote in message
news:heeahn$58v$1...@news.parasun.com...
>
> "Ike E 11/23/9" <xhermanei...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:hee50t$gmq$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>>
>> " ::: Jesus is LORD :::" <jesus-...@lycos.com> wrote in message
>> news:7mvetaF...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> PRETERISM (preached by some in ACC) IS A LIE!
>>
>> Yes, but so is Dispensationalism.
>>
>> Missing week?
>>
>> Please.
>>
>> Try "missing 70 years," just like seven prophecies say.
>>
>> Rapture?
>>
>> Give me a break.
>>
>> Try "gathering of the Remnant," just like Jesus and the boys said.
>>
>> Front-loaded Gospel?
>>
>> Not a chance.
>>
>> Try "whosoever shall endure TO THE END shall be saved."
>>
>> And so on, and so forth.
>
> And as Ike has determined the Bible to be, that's the way it is, folks!
Well...
1) when God speaks of prophetic events in terms of seventy years in seven
prophecies, and John quotes or alludes to at least TWO of those seventy year
prophecies LONG AFTER their initial fulfillment, and there isn't ANY
prophecy that says that the end of the age is seven years, it's a good bet
that it's seventy years, which means the "missing week" theory is a load of
crap.
2) When Jesus says "the elect whom I shall choose," and Paul refers to those
who will be "alive and remain," and John refers to the dualistic Remnant
appearing on the "sea of glass" (a metaphor for the temporal world), it's a
good bet they WEREN'T talking about the Church-at-large up and disappearing
in the middle of the day.
3) When Jesus says "whoever shall endure to the END shall be saved," it's a
good bet that His Gospel is BACK-LOADED, not FRONT-LOADED.
Now, do you have an actual rebuttal to these facts, or are you just being an
asshole? (again.)
> (tongue in cheek). Now, don't try to argue with him, cause that just gets
> his ego flared up something fierce!
The "ego" problem is obviously yours, as you can't seem to formulate a
viable counter-argument to anything I say--you fall back to the ad hominem
attack, which demonstrates that you have nothing to actually say. You're
just a prick.
Ike
duke
>If Christ Has Not Come!
>by Richard McPherson
>In this article Richard McPherson looks at some of the grave
>problems created when we postpone the Second Coming
>beyond the first century. If Christ has not come, the Bible
>is a false book and God lied!
>This article is about the Second Coming of Christ.
Jesus Christ already came twice - once when God became man and once at his
resurrection.
The Dukester, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
Ike E 11/23/9
"duke" <duckg...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:lkjog5lg1dbi3i7nn...@4ax.com...
[snip]
> Jesus Christ already came twice - once when God became man and once at his
> resurrection.
Great. You've just declared yourself a heretic...
"He will come again to judge the living and the dead."
Turn yourself into the pope.
Ike