Re: The Doctrine of Endless Punishment

[Michael McLean]

Bob Duncan wrote:
>>> The Doctrine of Endless Punishment

Mike wrote:
>> The doctrine of endless sinner sin-justifying religion.
>>
>> With a time limit. :-).

Bob Duncan wrote:
> Prove it.

Me, kneel before your power? :-). You haven't got any. :-).

The truth is good enough for everyone else, and so it is good enough for
you, Bob.

I was listening to a podcast of one of your fellow alumni...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xag3ewr4YZU&t=23s&ab_channel=LigonierMinistries

Choice has no power, so power is not required to choose God. This is
where the Reformed Theology argument breaks down, but in a round about
way you could argue that we are saying the same thing!

Saying we have no power and saying power is not required are not the
same thing. As with every religion of sinners, Reformed Theology weaves
itself through "truths" in order to bring about the conclusion it wants.
From 5:50 to 6:34 in the video, absolute truth; no doubt about it. God
is the power, all power, and He has the power to give or take as He wills.

So, yes, we have no power to save ourselves; it is an act of God. But
God, in His infinite power, grants us free will, which requires no
power, just a simple choosing.

"What do you want for Christmas?" said the father to his son. It is not
good or evil; it is just a choice, but the father has all the power all
the time. And the son thinks, "What is it I really want?" Is that a
power the son has, or has the father given the son the power to have
that thought/choice – not to mention "life" in order to have a thought
at all!

That is the power of God. You having no power in and of yourself, God
gives you a choice in the stillness of His presence.

I could discuss it with you, but I can't see that being your inclination
because your life is sitting on the false doctrine of this particular
form of Christendom, and it would feel like pulling all your teeth at
once for you.

Nevertheless, the Lord Jesus went to the cross for the sin of the whole
world. You are not more powerful than your neighbour; you have no power,
or you could have gone to the cross for yourself. You are not a better
sinner than a prostitute sinner, a homosexual sinner, or a thieving
sinner because you are a sinner yourself.

The problem is that you think you have power, even when you say you have
none. I have nothing personal against the man; I still listen to him.
However, it reminds me of RC Sproul, who used to say something like,
"There aren't 5 minutes in my entire life when I loved God with all my
heart, soul, and mind," holding that up as a form of humility, but in
reality it should have been in utter contempt and abhorrence of himself
and sent him into the dust and ashes of repentance, as it did for Job.




Mike

--
Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance of God."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do, it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence and proof is to be found!!"

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not to have a book pass
through it so that you could play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"The Bible cannot baptize. No one was ever saved by reading the Bible.
Mechanical or methodical salvation is just more Pharisee bureaucracy.
Men are saved after their conviction, death sentence, and resurrection
in baptism--the baptism of the Holy Spirit." - Nightbulb

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: A man full of bluster and bullshit
pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

[Michael McLean]

On 4/02/2023 11:10 am, Bob Duncan wrote:
> On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 3:17:03 AM UTC-5, Michael McLean wrote:
>> On 18/11/2022 11:55 am, Bob Duncan wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 3:06:48 PM UTC-5, Michael McLean wrote:

>>>> On 17/11/2022 10:24 pm, Bob Duncan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The Doctrine of Endless Punishment

>>>> All sinners must be punished!
>> Bob wrote:
>>> Everyone is a sinner. But only sinners who have not had their sins forgiven
>>> will be punished.
>> Pay attention, Bob.

>> Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
>> YET sinners, Christ died for us.

>> Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just the special
>> religious ongoing sinner people.
>
>
> No. All you're doing is you're taking the Bible out of context.
> Pay attention. I don't care if you believe this or not. In fact, I'm positive you
> won't.

I had the courtesy to read what you say and try to see from your point
of view, can you offer the same?

What are you afraid of, anyway? Being a "wrong" sinner? At worse, can
you not repent?

The problem is, you are fighting to defend a Religion of flawed men who
admit they are flawed, yet demand absolute allegiance to its doctrines.



> The "we" that Paul is referring to in Romans 5:8 are the Romans who are saved.
> Paul is writing an epistle to the church at Rome:
> "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints."
> [Romans 1:7]

So the Lord Jesus died on the cross only for special sinners, then?

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Okay, I will try and argue it from your point of view. Half as much
grace - can I expect that from you?

So, you say it is only for the Romans and/or saved sinners. Just
because the Romans letter is to the Romans, that does not mean Paul does
not address all sinners. I am sure in the gatherings back then there
were all sorts, as there are now.

Sproul, MacArthur, say things like, "There are some here today who...,"
and so on.

Right?

Rom 5:6  For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died
for the ungodly. Only for the ungodly in Rome? Who are the ungodly?
Are they not all?

You want to reason, then reason.


> So, you're taking that verse completely out of context, as well as contradicting
> what tens of thousands of renowned born-again Christians have written about
> for the last two thousand years.

I fully understand this is the rub for you, and many.

Many spoke then, as many speak today. As I said in the other post, many
say many truths, but that does not mean they are the truth! Like that
Steven Lawson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xag3ewr4YZU&t=28s&ab_channel=LigonierMinistries.

He mixes many truths into his sermon, but he draws the conclusion his
religion demands, his training concludes. He has everything to lose if
he moves outside of it; his position, his income, his esteem before
others, his fellowship, and so on.

Out of the trees, now, and have a look at the forest; Lawson is in the
trees - I have nothing against the man, or you for that matter. As I
said, there is the presumption that choice requires power, and since we
have no power of our own (which is true), well Calvinism is the truth,
right?

Not so fast: "choice" has no power, like "chance" has no power. It is
just "possibility" that God allows in His great grace.

Now if you want to prove to me I am wrong, prove to me that in us choice
has power and/or requires power, and in the process, God willing, you
may just learn what is being said.

> But, it's alright with me if you want to be wrong.

You have a choice, but you have no power to determine.


> If you do, then that can only be
> because God has not elected you for salvation.

That is your religion, your doctrine thinking it has power.


> God has rejected you, and you
> will not be saved. See how that works? God chooses who will and who will not
> be saved. You're contradicting God Himself if you think you're the one who
> makes that decision.

God is God.

But He gives us a choice.

I explained it with the father and his son under his roof (the earth is
the Lord's and the fullness thereof). The son has no power, but the
father asked him, what would you like for Christmas?

The child still has no power, all the power is still in the Father's hands.

We are beings made in His image (able to have a choice), not merely
clay, but we still only have the power of clay...none.


> "God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts
> of others so they refuse to listen."
> [Romans 9:18]

All power to God, yes.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom
he will he hardeneth.

What is mercy? To show us mercy? Is God a respecter of persons?

God, still, being who He is, allows a choice, but He has His power of
choice to exact the consequence. Could not have Esau chosen the
inheritance? Could not have Cain chosen to produce a right offering?
Could have Eve chosen not to eat of the fruit? Could not have David
chosen to slay Saul when he had the chance? Could have Samson chosen not
to tell Delilah the power was in his hair? Could not have Hannah chosen
not to hand over her son Samuel? Could have Mary not chosen to pour the
perfume over Jesus' feet? Could Moses have chosen not to hit the rock,
and simply speak to the rock as God instructed?

Have you now the choice to listen or not listen?

Mat_23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and
stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered
thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her
wings, and ye would not!

Speaking of what? Choice!

Choice, but choice has NO POWER in and of itself; that is what you need
to understand. If choice had power you could change yourself!!!

We are fooled into thinking "choice" has power, it does not; it is an
illusion. God is the power. If "choice" had power, we could make the
call on its consequence.

We are devoid of power to do anything about the consequences of our sin,
devoid of the power for us to make ourselves righteous, devoid of any
power to do anything. What then does that say about us making a choice?

Clay.

Now, if there is any salt in you, reason that, and address it. A
simple, I don't believe you, is an atheist coward behaviour.


> Jesus said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes
> to me I will never cast out." [John 6:37]

Choice. The one's that chose to listen (Mat_23:37).

"Whoever."

> Jesus said, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.
> And I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44]

If a man listens, He will come to that man and make Himself known to Him
and draw that man out of the world.

Behold, He stands at the door and knocks...we have a choice, but choice
has no power to open that door, like chance has no power to determine a
coin landing on a head! Choice is just "possibility" that God in His
great power, great mercy, and great grace, provides.

Choose to listen.