Re: A 'New' Simple Question.
Pastor Frank
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> "Pastor Frank" <Pasto...@christfirst.org> wrote in message
> news:393ee$44592613$d1d894d3$30...@PRIMUS.CA...
>> "+«rrock»+" <ron.rrockwell.com@localhost.> wrote in message
>> news:ufH5g.9374$k.3...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>> Greywolf wrote:
>>>
>>> Since the answers seem to be a bit garbled to the 'Simple Question' I
>>> posed further down, I'd like to pose a new 'Simple Question' to the
>>> theists in this newsgroup. And that is:
>>> Has anyone adequately explained why the 'Almighty' found it necessary to
>>> create evil?
>>> This is a serious and thought-provoking question that doesn't appear to
>>> be given the 'due' it deserves.
>>> (Oh, obviously, I am an atheist -- but one who respects those moral
>>> Christians who respect my thoughtful disbelief.)
>>> Greywolf
>> There isn't any evil. All is good.
>> --------------
>> That applies only to what God made, not to what humans do who have a
>> free choice between doing good or doing evil.
>
> Is. 45:7, Jn. 1:3 and Col. 1:15 point to a deity that created *everything*
> that exists; that would include 'evil'. If your 'God' had a free-will as
> well, it would indicate -- at least to *me* -- that 'He' freely *chose* to
> create evil, thus making HIM a deity *I* wouldn't chose to worship and
> adore -- let alone call him a 'God' of 'Love and Peace'. (But that's just
> one man's opinion. Mull what I've said here over and point to where I am
> wrong in any of this.)
> I don't believe your 'God' created 'evil' any more than I believe he
> created 'good'. In fact, I haven't seen any compelling evidence of the
> existence of this 'God' of yours at all. I think evil is something man
> inflicts upon his fellow man and that the supra-religionists of this world
> are guiltier than most for foisting an evil poison on the rest of us.
> *Phooey* on the fundamentalist religions. They are a bane to mankind.
> Greywolf
You haven't thought this out. God made existence so that we can act as
free agents, able to choose between doing good and evil, and finding a
purpose for our lives in doing one or the other. Without good and evil you
would have no choice, nor purpose. You would be just another animals, acting
on instinct only and quite unable to make a choice between doing either good
or evil.
As for you gratuitous condemnations, that's just your atheists cynicism
and paranoia talking. That road will invariably end in despair, if not
suicide.
Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "+�rrock�+" <ron.rrockwell.com@localhost.> wrote in message
> news:ufH5g.9374$k.3...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Greywolf wrote:
>
>>Since the answers seem to be a bit garbled to the 'Simple Question' I
>>posed further down, I'd like to pose a new 'Simple Question' to the
>>theists in this newsgroup. And that is:
>>Has anyone adequately explained why the 'Almighty' found it necessary to
>>create evil?
>>This is a serious and thought-provoking question that doesn't appear to be
>>given the 'due' it deserves.
>>(Oh, obviously, I am an atheist -- but one who respects those moral
>>Christians who respect my thoughtful disbelief.)
>>Greywolf
>
> There isn't any evil. All is good.
> --------------
> That applies only to what God made, not to what humans do who have a
> free choice between doing good or doing evil.
>
free-will
is an illusion. Don't jump on that real quick, though. There is something to
be said for Jung's theory of synchronicity; i.e. he has his points. There is
also some thought deserving on free-will being contradictory to cause and
effect. Neither of these concepts, however, are enough to sway, nor convince
me, they are about equal on the logical balances, in my opinion.
The problem with both of those is that they have "time" as a prerequisite.
Time is also an illusion.
I do understand your perspective on the matter, P.F., but to me, the
definition
of "evil" is only "directional". For example, one might say that Hitler was
an
"evil" man. But who were all of the people actually performing the deeds?
One might also say that tigers are evil, since they eat men. But, even the
Bible
has stories about certain men who were attuned, and the lions would not eat
these
people. Its simply a matter of directions. Being in tune, the lions had no
reason
to eat what was naturally correct, just as much as lions do not eat shrubs
or
trees. And certainly people like to look in retrospect at Hitler and kick a
bad
name while its down, but those ideas were not considered evil at the time. I
suppose
we could toss back and forth things like how military killing is
"justified", but
i doubt that it matters much in the scheme of things.
To me, having a notion of "evil" is the chief means of the propagation of
the same.
I agree with you completely that it is a notion among men. The notion
itself,
according to Genesis, was what caused the "fall of man". When there was no
"evil"
notion, no illusion in men, there was no evil on all of the Earth.
There isn't any evil. All is good. That applies, like you said to what God
has made,
and that includes all things, and all things continuously in the here and
now.
Good is all things. Evil is not the opposite of good. Its an illusion at
best.
Evil is relative. Good is absolute. Truth is absolute. False is an illusion.
--------------------------------
Of course good and evil are "directional" ....from an amoral point of
view. But me thinks you are getting too obfuscated and pedantic where
simplicity serves best. Man was created an intelligent animal, who knew
language enough to name animals and plants, but quite unable to discern good
from evil, or know of any other qualitative dichotomies.
"The fall" was nothing more, than man becoming like God, able to know
good from evil. How discerning Adam and Eve were can be seen from the first
thing they judged bad or evil, needing clothes to cover. That opinion hasn't
changed to this day, regardless of logic and reason.
Therefore not the knowledge of evil propagates evil, but the preference
of evil over good does. Your "there isn't any evil" robs man of the useful
activity of thinking deeply as to what is good and what is evil, but also
compromises his freedom to act according to his decision.
In essence that which is good, increases the complexity and quality of
life, if not all of existence, whereas evil always seeks death and
non-existence. The tension between the two is what makes life what it is, or
reality, that which atheists focus on. God must always be more powerful than
Satan, because good MUST predominate to keep existence in being, otherwise
all ceases to be. You and I are here to tip the balance from the atheist
neutral, into God's favour.
Is that all predetermined? Perhaps yes, but there is no way of knowing,
and I for one assume in faith, that God is willing to take a chance on us,
giving us the tools to destroy as well as create, without scripting and
choreographing our actions in advance.
╙«rrock»╖
Naturally, such things don't exist.
> "The fall" was nothing more, than man becoming like God, able to know
> good from evil. How discerning Adam and Eve were can be seen from the first
> thing they judged bad or evil, needing clothes to cover. That opinion hasn't
> changed to this day, regardless of logic and reason.
My opinion is that this was "second". The actual snake of course could not
speak, however, all things communicate if one has the sensory ability to
understand them. For such people as you describe above as an intelligent
animal, consider the following:
A man sees a fly and knows that the fly likes "smelly" things. He also knows
that "smelly" things are bad, but he sees the fly cleaning it's hands. He finds
himself later in a situation where he has "dirty" hands. He picks up some dust
and washes his hands like the fly. It works. He then goes to tell someone else
in his family the new discovery. He tells them, "The fly told me". This is not
a twist on words, he does not mean that the fly spoke of course. But, the man
would understand that the lesson had been taught by the fly.
Now consider the snake. The natural man knows only good. The numbers begin with
one and end with ten. All things in nature are one. Physical things spread, and
for example, a tree is the trunk, but also the branches and then the twigs. The
tree is still one, it is not "divided", but spread. The concept of evil begins
with the notion of "zero". The notion is the same as "not know". For the natural
man all is known, and God flows through him. The notion of "not know" is the
primal defiance of God. The primal cause to separate from God and think with
logic and with cause and effect. Only with NO God does the concept of "not know"
exist. The existence of the negative, the false, the zero, and all of the illusions
that stem from those things came from the lesson of the snake. For this reason,
i would say that shame came afterward (regarding your above comments).
When you learn the lesson of the snake, P.F., all of this becomes very clear.
Yes, certainly there are still some people today that say silly things like,
"There isn't any way that the snake could talk". To those people i simply say,
there isn't any way that YOU can understand a snake. Allegorically speaking,
snakes talk, people don't listen.
> Therefore not the knowledge of evil propagates evil, but the preference
> of evil over good does. Your "there isn't any evil" robs man of the useful
> activity of thinking deeply as to what is good and what is evil, but also
> compromises his freedom to act according to his decision.
Such a freedom is also illusion. When God flows through you, the correct response
is always present and is good. At best, using English of course, the "evil" is
doing what one chooses (free will) rather than as God directs. The defiance of
knowing and instead thinking, judging and choosing, if you wish to call something
evil, then still it is only a direction. Knowing God is the same as when a man
comes to say that he will lop off your head because you defy man's law by doing
as God directs, you agree with him.
> In essence that which is good, increases the complexity and quality of
> life, if not all of existence, whereas evil always seeks death and
> non-existence. The tension between the two is what makes life what it is, or
> reality, that which atheists focus on. God must always be more powerful than
> Satan, because good MUST predominate to keep existence in being, otherwise
> all ceases to be. You and I are here to tip the balance from the atheist
> neutral, into God's favour.
God directs me. What others do is for them to do. For me it is only as God
wishes and all is good. Perhaps you feel you have a purpose of your own.
That's okay with me. For me, if there is a purpose, then it will be revealed.
Now is now continuously. The time is "at hand". It means, now, rather than soon.
And it means "now" forever. It is as true as when it was spoken originally.
One of the very first illusions is the illusion that something "is going to
happen if...". It is an illusion that causes fear. It is an illusion that has
many people doubt what they hear as God's direction inside of them. It is the
the primal defiance again, and it is more than defiance, it is habitual. The
"Self" and importance of the "Self" is blamed on instinct, but it is learned
and it is cultural. Earlier you said that you think my view is complex, "simplicity
is best". To me, though, your view is at least twice as complex since it requires
a negative. Above you say that the duality of "good AND evil" rather than "only
good" is a complexity that is required. To me, the "evil" is only illusion.
> Is that all predetermined? Perhaps yes, but there is no way of knowing,
> and I for one assume in faith, that God is willing to take a chance on us,
> giving us the tools to destroy as well as create, without scripting and
> choreographing our actions in advance.
The concept of "predetermined" again rests on the illusion of "time". Now is now.
Now is forever. If one "day" passes, time will not go forward any closer to the
"end" of infinity because infinity has "no end". I rely on God as direction only
and know God rather than have "faith" or "belief" or "thinking" or "logic" about
what is already known to be true. When you speak of God and "willing" and taking
a "chance" you are thinking and personifying that which is all life and infinity.
All is good. The lesson of the snake is to know good AND evil. The lesson is an
illusion. I will not write the lesson of the snake to UseNet Frank. It is personal
and it is something which someday i hope comes to you. It is something which comes
from God. But the effects of the lesson will be the opposite of what occurred to
"Eve". When you learn it for yourself you will know it.
For your "time/logic perspective"... If all people knew only good, then evil would
no longer exist.
--
ἀπὸ μηχανῆς θεός ápo mēchanēs theós
Speaking of Angels -
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007G1434/102-3602972-5466516
Greywolf
ultimately destroyed by your 'God,' will all you angels in heaven have a
'free-will', then? And if not, why not? And if not, Why did not this 'God'
of yours just skip the whole 'Evil-Satan-Need- to-Crucify-a-deity-named
Jesus-masquerading-as-a-Human' nonsense? (What is so 'good' about a 'God'
who willfully 'created' evil?) Wouldn't it have been much simpler, let alone
much more 'loving', for your 'Almighty' to have left 'evil' completely out
of the picture in the first place? Who needs to be a 'free agent' needlessly
experiencing the utter pain, anguish and pain that has affected every human
ever born (according to fundamentalist 'theology') just to 'know' what evil
is? How would we ultimately make the 'wrong' choice when the 'choice' could
have easily have never entered our conscience to begin with? And where, by
the way, did your 'God' derive the concept of evil and the need to inflict
it on helpless man. Not a very infinitely loving, merciful, compassionate
and just 'God' you have there -- in my humble opinion. And again, I am not
trying to be a wise-ass here. I am absolutely stupefied that -- taking all
things into consideration -- a significantly large proportion of mankind
worships and adores an entity that is so downright *mean*! (And remember,
those who are ultimately consigned to Hell -- according to fundamentalist
theology -- stay there, not for a day, not for a month, not for 100 years,
but for *eternity* for breaking the 'rules' imposed by your deity. That is
hardly the behavior of an infinitely loving 'God'.
In closing (for now), I just want to emphasize that what I am attempting to
do is force the fundamentalist community to think deeply about the precepts
they hold so dear and point out any errors in logic and reason *I* may be
guilty of as well.
I *do* consider myself a person of fairly high moral standards despite being
an atheist (as if atheists are somehow inherently 'evil' -- another
fundamentalist misrepresentation of us, and which has no basis in fact.)
Just exercising the old 'noodle' here.
Greywolf
╙«rrock»╖
>>>>"+�rrock�+" <ron.rrockwell.com@localhost.> wrote in message
>>>>news:ufH5g.9374$k.3...@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>>>>
>>>>There isn't any evil. All is good.
>
There isn't any evil, all is good. Is this too complex? What seems complex
to me is all of the weird assumptions you make about all sorts of weird
ideas up above there, all of which are apparently some sort of mishmash
(cult maybe?) that looks like what all sorts of different people from all
sorts of different walks of life have told you in the past. Why do you want
to force anyone to do anything?
BTW, if you are really an atheist, then why are you posting to news groups
that are designated for Christians? Have you ever drunk milk mixed with
mustard?
Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "+�rrock�+" <ron.rrockwell.com@localhost.> wrote in message
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> Therefore not the knowledge of evil propagates evil, but the
>> preference of evil over good does. Your "there isn't any evil" robs man
>> of the useful activity of thinking deeply as to what is good and what is
>> evil, but also compromises his freedom to act according to his decision.
>
> Such a freedom is also illusion. When God flows through you, the correct
> response
> is always present and is good. At best, using English of course, the
> "evil" is doing what one chooses (free will) rather than as God directs.
> I can see where you are coming from, but what you say is not
> Christian, but Taoism. There isn't room either for Christ, nor for
> repentance and reconciliation. In your scenario I am become like Adam and
> Eve before the fall ...in direct knowledge of God. In that state I am
> innocent ...and have never been other than innocent, where as a Christian
> I am guilty as charged yet reconciled in repentance. I am the prodigal
> son, not the son who stayed at home and is in no need of his Father's
> grace.
> I have no idea whether it is possible for a sinner a return to
> innocence without needing submission and repentance. The best we
> Christians can hope for is to be DEEMED innocent through Christ our Lord
> and Saviour, and find life in the love of the Father.
>
Repent for what we as a human race have done to the Earth. Repent for
allowing
it to continue (us as a race). You make it sound as though you need to die
before
you are granted forgiveness. What makes you think that God raised us here on
Earth to die? God raised us here on Earth to live. A prodigal son goes home
and is forgiven, but his story then continues. Once a prodigal son is
forgiven,
and is reconciled as you say, he then would be cleansed of "evil". All then
is
good. Therefore, one whom has found life in the love of the Father would
know
only good because "evil" is found only in others.
---------------
No. That's non sequitur in the Christian context. For repentance is
about judging. As an atheist we need to keep score of our wins and losses,
achievements and failures, successes and shortcomings etc. etc. all in the
interest of having a self-image. We want to be able to describe ourselves
after the motto: Know thyself.
Once one returns to the Father in repentance, one does not judge oneself
any longer, but one rest's one's case in Him who loved us enough to die for
us on the cross. In other words, like the prodigal son, we are returning
home to be the child (of God) again. A child does not judge itself but
trusts the judgment his parents have of him. We Christians trust in the
judgment of our Father which is in heaven. That is why the rebirth in Christ
feels like an enormous weight is lifted off our shoulders.
------------------
Let me veer the topic a little to one side, if you would. Let's consider
"evil".
I remember what it was. Ask people if killing is evil, for the most part
they will
agree that it is. Ask then if it is evil when a tiger kills a goat, they
then disperse
with their answers among many reasons. But lets go the other direction, if
killing
is "evil" then what about attempting to kill... people would say, yes, that
is evil.
So then what about only maiming, yes, that would be evil they would say. So
keep
"lessening" as if it was a quantifiable substance this "evil" in the acts...
what
about just punching somebody, yes that would be evil... but then provide ANY
sort
of "not evil" justification, such as saving a life..., or who would judge
between
two lives, if one person kills another person to save a life of a third,
there are
only two people that survive in either scenario, is that evil? Then consider
Jesus driving
the money changers out of the temple. Did he have a whip? Did he beat them?
But note
that his act was "justified". So what is "evil" when it comes to killing?
And whom
is to be able to answer this question except God which authors life itself.
Therefore,
anyone that would make a judgement whatsoever about "evil" may do so only
because he
possesses the evil within him by which to "compare", either rightfully or
wrongfully,
who is to say? Without the notion of zero, the not, the negative, the roots
of evil,
the fear of the next, there is only good and judgement then is for others to
do as they
will.
The will itself has two places. It may reside as an abused tool that decides
what thoughts
you end up choosing between your two opposing thoughts when making a
decision, or it may
be used as a valve to adjust the constant unidirectional flow of love from
God. When you
have "free" will, you know evil. When you know God, will is only like a
valve.
--------------
All that is taken care of, by the Royal Law and Golden Rule of Christ,
which means empathy rules. See below
Pastor Frank
The most important, yet most ignored commandments of Christ, which would
make war, if not ALL of man's inhumanity to man extinct, nay totally
unthinkable:
THE ROYAL LAW OF CHRIST
**Jesus in Mk 12:30: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy
strength: this is the first commandment.
**31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
**Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
commandments."
THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
╙«rrock»╖
P.F., i don't think i understand what you mean by "as an atheist, we need".
Self image means squat to me. Self image is one of the primary causes of
the illusion that one person is more important than another. It is the
cause of the illusion of "ownership".
> Once one returns to the Father in repentance, one does not judge oneself
> any longer, but one rest's one's case in Him who loved us enough to die for
> us on the cross. In other words, like the prodigal son, we are returning
> home to be the child (of God) again. A child does not judge itself but
> trusts the judgment his parents have of him. We Christians trust in the
> judgment of our Father which is in heaven. That is why the rebirth in Christ
> feels like an enormous weight is lifted off our shoulders.
Great! So then after returning home to be the child (of God) again, and
once the the enormous weight is lifted off the shoulders, then everything
is good. The illusion of evil is removed, God's will directs rather than
the Self-free-will judging. It looks to me like we agree on this. Could
you be more explicit if you still see differences?
God is a fact. God is the primary fact on which all other facts rest.
All is good and evil is only illusion. This is also, the first commandment.
Recognition of evil is impossible when ALL the heart and ALL the soul and
ALL the mind love only God. The English word "commandment" is in my opinion,
a misnomer. The word Law is more appropriate. It is an immutable Law which
cannot be broken. Those who cannot understand this, have turned their gaze
away and see shame and illusion. The law is true and actual regardless of
whether it is reality to various people. Those that have turned away haven't
changed the immutable law whatsoever. Apples fall from trees even if one
is shut in a basement viewing darkness.
> **31: And the second is alike, namely this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour
> as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
> **Jesus in Mat 22:40 "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two
> commandments."
> THE GOLDEN RULE OF CHRIST
> Jesus in Matt. 7:12: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
> should do to you, do ye even so to them...."
Therefore, all wars end when all know only good. When all is good, evil no
longer exists. It is something that each person must do for themselves rather
than a matter of convincing others.
Consider this fact: If all people in the world wanted peace, there would be
peace on Earth. The state of affairs among humans today is the result of what
the humans have striven to achieve. It is not "our problem" to consider those
that want war.
Consider the Declaration of Independence... notice the hypocrisy written there.
First it is stated that God has granted inalienable "rights" to humans. And then
rather than "in God we Trust" to provide those inalienable "rights", a statement
is made saying that "men" must take matters into their own hands. It's propaganda.
Pastor Frank
news:11470297...@sp6iad.superfeed.net...
> "Greywolf" <grey...@cybrzn.com> wrote:
>>
>>When we study God and the Universe, it is noted that God is eternal. This
>>means that
>> God exists at light speed infinity. At this light speed, the past and the
>> future conincide.
>> For God there is no beginning nor end.
>
> Everything created by God is made from lower light speed energy. This
> means that
> cause and effect apply. There is a beginning for everything and an end to
> everything.
> Therefore we are finite creatures. We rely upon inputting energy for
> survival. We must
> eat and therefore kill other living creatures or plants. We must struggle
> for resources. Thus
> it is impossible for God to create anything without a down side to the
> creation. Good
> thus comes with evil.
>
Don't tie God to His creation other than that he created the material
world and us to live in it. He did not create light speed to dwell in it.
For God dwells in the heart of mankind, of His sons and friends. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Lk 17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said: "The kingdom of
God cometh not with observation. Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo
there! For, behold, the kingdom of GOD IS WITHIN YOU."
Vi...@vincemail.com
> Has anyone adequately explained why the 'Almighty' found it necessary to
> create evil?
God was a sex maniac and went crazy with SM. There pain was invented
and that's what evil is all about... pain.
--VInce
Pastor Frank
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "+�rrock�+" <ron.rrockwell.com@localhost.> wrote in message
>
> In your definition above, you mention people judging "how good they are".
> I am curious what you mean by that exactly. For example, how good are they
> at what?
> -----------------
> Good at being a person who lives up to standards which earn praise and
> recognition from others, and of whom one can be proud of. Most people have
> and maintain that "I am a good person" image. Very few see themselves as
> cunning, sly, dangerous and thoroughly evil. In fact even the most evil
> ones, describe themselves as being good. I'm sure Hitler considered
> Himself a very good person, and would have all his reasons and
> justifications ready to recite on judgment day, why he deserved heaven.
>
I see myself as an instrument of God only. All is good, and that even
includes
Adolph Hitler. It matters nil to me what others think of me, one way or the
other. Prayer requires only that one listens. Do you really think that how
other people regard you makes any difference to God?
-----------------
It does not. However many a murderer regarded himself as "an instrument
of God". This only works if you have the Word of God in print to cross
check, and make sure that it is not Satan masquerading as God who is making
you do evil, and cause you to think it is good and the will of God.
>
> -----------
> Why would you think God is NOT human. Are we not made in His image?
Yes, however, technically all things are made of God, and God is All things.
I would steer you toward the Sepher Yetzirah here, but am pretty sure that
unless the Catholics approve of the books that you read, you are likely not
to bother with them. So, for a technical discussion of such matters, you are
pretty much out of luck here.
> If God were perfect and only a single "character" then it would
> necessarily
> mean that all things from his perspective were "evil" (that concept you
> still believe in). Because if God were only a single perfect entity, what
> would be able to stand next to him by comparison and be considered
> "better"?
> ----------
> Where do you get the idea that God is not "a single caracter"?
>
Why would you place such a human limitation on that which is infinite?
---------------
Because Christ (and virtually all other great religious reformers) said:
God is one.
>
> In the same logic, only from the perfectly evil point of view would
> everything
> in the world be considered "good" if there were also such an entity. For
> what would there be that could be considered worse than pure evil?
> This sort of thinking about God as a human, though, is flawed. All things
> are
> good, and evil may only be understood by those who consider themselves to
> be
> better than whatever it is that they judge. Remove the SELF from the
> equation and
> know God's eternal infinite love. Only in this manner is evil eradicated
> from one's
> existence. Judgment is for God, and knowing both Good AND Evil is to put
> yourself
> wrongfully at an equal stature as God in your mind. I was under the
> impression that you were familiar with the Book of Genesis.
> -------------
> This may be true, but it's not feasible, for as Paul says: We are in
> this world, but not of this world. We cannot look at war, suffering and
> death and say "all is good". Christ said, that the ruler of this world is
> Satan, and I believe Him and in Him.
>
That seems to be a rather weak interpretation of what Paul was saying.
Paul was speaking technically. Keep in mind that there is "science" to all
of this, and the illusion that we "exist here"; i.e. in our bodies, as
opposed to simply being spirits that are connected to our bodies, and
which exist in a non-physical realm, is closer to what he was speaking
about.
--------------
I am not sure there is a "non-physical realm". I see no reason why the
stage on which the action takes place has to be removed in alternative
realities such as heaven or hell. As to being "a weak interpretation", you
don't supply a stronger one.
>
> By the way, is there a reason that this thread needs to be continually
> cross-posted?
> If you wouldn't mind, and since i have continuously specified in the
> headers for
> it to be replied to in alt.religion.apologetics, do you think you could
> follow
> suit? It would be appreciated, thanks.
> ------------
> news:alt.religion.apologetics is meant for all religions, not just
> Christianity. I am discussing religion from the Christian viewpoint, and
> therefore post to Christian NGs. You on the other hand represent an
> unknown religion resembling Taoism. Therefore crossposting to my Christian
> groups is justified.
As you wish, however, you should be advised that normally cross-posting is
considered
just another form of spam.
--------------
Not when done from one Christian group to another. Nor even from one
religion to another, as different religions are not remarkable for their
differences but rather for their similarities. Aldous Huxley wrote a small
book called "Perennial Philosophy" where he lists the many similarities
among religions. His view was, that the more religions backed the same
principles the greater would be their validity and universality.
Per being "Christian" or "Taoist", Jesus was not a
Christian and probably closer to a Taoist. I prefer to constrain this
conversation
to a.r.apologetics, and will continue to do so.
-------------
Suit yourself, but we all notice, that you don't put a label to your
belief system, to let us know where your ideas are coming from.
Furthermore, Christianity is more Paulene than Christian. It is
unfortunate that Paul never quoted Christ, and that churches consequently
seldom preach the holy and inerrant Words of Jesus Christ. Actually, any
Christian pastors feel more comfortable preaching the OT and Judaism.
ªºª rrock
Well, there you go personifying God and Satan again, as if they were characters,
one with a long beard and the other with horns i suppose. Satan is a way of life,
rather than a single character, P.F. Satan is believing that evil exists, which
of course perpetuates fear, which perpetuates evil, etc. All is good, P.F. You
should consider Jesus on the cross hung with the rest of the "evil-doers". At the
time in question, he was considered "evil" by the "norm" along with the thieves
that hung to his left and right. There is sort of a "chicken and egg" question
here. Which comes first, good? or "good and evil"? According to the Bible,
the answer to that question is "good". And according to the Bible, people that
still believe in "good and evil" are ashamed. Shame underlies fear. Fear underlies
anger. Anger underlies hate. But a mind which is pure knows only good. Losing the fear
of death being one of the first steps in understanding that ownership is also
an illusion.
All of your statements are judgmental, but judgment is reserved for God alone.
What difference does it make to you if you are harmed by a murderer? Let's suppose
that some man murders your wife. Does that make him evil? You feel pain from that
act because you will "miss" your wife, as if you own her. What it really means is
that you had "plans" that will now go unfulfilled, as if you have the right to alter
the future or lay claim to time itself. You feel vengeance against that man for the
murder that he did. All of these things are distinctly different than what Jesus
taught. Jesus taught "turn the other cheek". When you die, you haven't the ability
to take anything with you, but by acts alone against other humans may you lay claim
to ownership for anything that you find on Earth in the interim. Think about that
for awhile, about ownership and who owns the land and the resources. Why is there
ownership except for a fear that some resource will be depleted and that death will
follow, and then of course the fear of death itself, all of these fears are based
on the shame that one does not know God while living in the flesh. To know God is
to know infinite goodness and love at all times surrounding and within you as a
part of the Universe that you are. To know God is to be never alone and never in
fear regardless of the acts of those whom are ignorant. To know ownership requires
knowledge of evil as well. Think about these things Frank.
>>-----------
>> Why would you think God is NOT human. Are we not made in His image?
>
>
> Yes, however, technically all things are made of God, and God is All things.
> I would steer you toward the Sepher Yetzirah here, but am pretty sure that
> unless the Catholics approve of the books that you read, you are likely not
> to bother with them. So, for a technical discussion of such matters, you are
> pretty much out of luck here.
>
>
>>If God were perfect and only a single "character" then it would
>>necessarily
>>mean that all things from his perspective were "evil" (that concept you
>>still believe in). Because if God were only a single perfect entity, what
>>would be able to stand next to him by comparison and be considered
>>"better"?
>>----------
>> Where do you get the idea that God is not "a single caracter"?
>>
>
> Why would you place such a human limitation on that which is infinite?
> ---------------
> Because Christ (and virtually all other great religious reformers) said:
> God is one.
Yes, God is one, and the secret of that is knowing the Math of God. To understand
that one is equal to infinity is different than understanding math that recognizes
a "zero". How many infinities can there be, but one? Any additional infinity would
simply be again of the original. God is one and infinite and all things. So, the
question remains for you to answer technically Frank, since i agree with what Jesus
says about "one". Why would you place a human limitation, a single persona upon
that which is infinite such as God?
You seem to have forgotten your teachers, Frank. Jesus said that the kingdom
of heaven is within us, and both Jesus and John said that the kingdom of heaven
is at hand. To enter the kingdom of heaven is to do the will of God. Jesus said
that as well. It means to do God's will. Doing your own will is judging good
and evil, Frank. And Jesus said to his apostles to preach that the kingdom of
heaven is at hand. It means "now" rather than "soon", Frank. It means that it
is always infinitely here and now. You don't need me to supply you with any
interpretation of what is already written in the Bible, Frank. Paul is speaking
of the kingdom of heaven. To become as a child knowing only good is the kingdom
of heaven. Keep in mind, P.F., that Christ taught about the kingdom of heaven.
The kingdom of hell is a fictitious fantasy invented by Paradise Lost centuries
later. Christ taught goodness. . . only.
And what label did Jesus use? I have already mentioned several times that
my understanding comes from God, alone. The Bible is certainly an excellent
collection of books, but without the understanding of the simple things which
the authors of the books understood while writing, it's only really only going
to be argued about. None of those authors intended or knew in advance while
writing that their books would end up bound in a collection void of the contextual
scriptures which they studied from. But all of the authors knew God, that is
certain, and "faith" was something unnecessary.
I noticed that you used the word "we", but you haven't ever really said that
you are any particular faith, Frank. Do you believe that it matters to God if
a man labels "i know God" by some name?
> Furthermore, Christianity is more Paulene than Christian. It is
> unfortunate that Paul never quoted Christ, and that churches consequently
> seldom preach the holy and inerrant Words of Jesus Christ. Actually, any
> Christian pastors feel more comfortable preaching the OT and Judaism.
>
This all sounds rather like politics to me. Does it matter? Again you make it
sound like one man is greater than another or that you judge one person to
be worth listening to, and another worthless. It must give you great pain to
be deciding such judgments continuously. I remember how it was, so don't kid
yourself. But i prefer to know now rather than decide things. Knowing is from
God alone, and it is like a great burden being lifted, as you said. To turn
away from God to decide good or evil for yourself, P.F., that is truly an act
which causes shame.
By the way, i made a couple changes to the browser here again. You should be
able to respond to this post with the quotations working correctly.
Pastor Frank
news:qkd9g.17333$EC....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
> Dubh Ghall wrote:
>>
>> My interest in restoring my faith, is long past, sixty years past.
>
> Faith is worthless. Knowledge is crucial. It is not as important that you
> believe in God than God knowing you.
>
That is the Gnostic view. Are you a Gnostic? However it is the opposite
from Christ's position, that faith is everything, and knowledge is only good
insofar as it supports faith. See below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Lk:18:8: Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find
faith on the earth?
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "ชบช rrock" <inv...@address.here> wrote in message
> news:qkd9g.17333$EC....@tornado.rdc-kc.rr.com...
>
>>Dubh Ghall wrote:
>>
>>>My interest in restoring my faith, is long past, sixty years past.
>>
>>Faith is worthless. Knowledge is crucial. It is not as important that you
>>believe in God than God knowing you.
>>
>
I read this far:
> That is the Gnostic view. Are you a Gnostic?
I have decided that only for your own sake that i will now adopt a religion
and i have decided that this religion will be named Axposterism. The chief
tenet is that cross-posting is considered sinful and that carrying on
conversations with people who do not read the replies is considered flirting
with the retarded.
When you get a life and want to have an actual conversation, please let me
know, Frank. In the interim, speaking to you about just about any topic is
about as fruitful as speaking to a cinder block.
I am an individual, Frank. If that concept is too complex for you then you
should reconsider the definition of religion since it is based on groups
of the same.
next
Pastor Frank
news:pgdf62hia05se5278...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 13 May 2006 04:33:26 GMT, ªºª rrock <inv...@address.here> wrote:
>>Dubh Ghall wrote:
>>>
>>> My interest in restoring my faith, is long past, sixty years past.
>>
>>Faith is worthless. Knowledge is crucial. It is not as important that you
>>believe in God than God knowing you.
>
> It is difficult to explain, but I had always known that god was with me,
> right
> up to the moment when I needed a bit of support, then suddenly, he wasn't
> there
> any more. But it still took years for the truth to filter through.
>
What "truth" would that be? My experience was diametrically the opposite
from yours. I was born and reared an atheist by Secular Humanist parents.
Then when I needed support and had nothing more to lose, -so it didn't
matter anymore either way, I asked Christ to come into my life and take
over. To my utter amazement He did and comforted me. The rest is history,
and I have been singing His praises ever since.
Libertarius
Pastor Frank wrote:
===>Read up on self hypnosis, autosuggestion. -- L.
Ozzy
Your mind snapped, in other words.
You describe the common symptoms of a common illness,
a subtype of religious mania. Nothing to be ashamed of,
but nothing to be proud of, either.
No, strike that. You SHOULD be ashamed; you have to
hit bottom before you get well.
Pastor Frank
news:44694DE2.AD4B2365@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>> "Dubh Ghall" <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
>> news:pgdf62hia05se5278...@4ax.com...
>> >>Dubh Ghall wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> My interest in restoring my faith, is long past, sixty years past.
>> >>
>> >>Faith is worthless. Knowledge is crucial. It is not as important that
>> >>you
>> >>believe in God than God knowing you.
>> >
>> > Well, you see, that was the problem, sort of.
>> > It is difficult to explain, but I had always known that god was with
>> > me,
>> > right
>> > up to the moment when I needed a bit of support, then suddenly, he
>> > wasn't
>> > there
>> > any more. But it still took years for the truth to filter through.
>> >
>> What "truth" would that be? My experience was diametrically the
>> opposite
>> from yours. I was born and reared an atheist by Secular Humanist parents.
>> Then when I needed support and had nothing more to lose, -so it didn't
>> matter anymore either way, I asked Christ to come into my life and take
>> over. To my utter amazement He did and comforted me.
>
> ===>Read up on self hypnosis, autosuggestion. -- L.
>
the crutches out from under invalids and making fun of the sick? As long as
you conduct yourself as a superior smart-ass would, being proud of needing
nothing and no one, Christ will pass you by. See below.
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Pastor Frank
news:1147752252.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Dubh Ghall" <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
> news:pgdf62hia05se5278...@4ax.com...
------------------
When you "have nothing more to lose", that's when you "hit bottom". At
that point your strongest and dearest beliefs and disbeliefs matter nothing
anymore, and thus reading Christ isn't filtered by one's prejudice any
longer. All of a sudden, what you invariably used to dismiss with an atheist
sneer, now takes on meaning and becomes something of great significance.
Like I said, it's very human not to look fo answers, when one doesn't
need any, and you obviously were never in need, even though you know
apparently about "hitting bottom."
ªºª rrock
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
> news:44694DE2.AD4B2365@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
>
>>Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>>>"Dubh Ghall" <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
>>>news:pgdf62hia05se5278...@4ax.com...
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 13 May 2006 04:33:26 GMT, ªºª rrock <inv...@address.here>
So what you are saying is that Libertarius is righteous, whole, and has no
need of a physician. So then why do you constantly argue with him when he
is clearly trying to offer you a helping hand? Are you still under the
delusion that you have measurable levels of reading comprehension and
retention?
I think you are Satan and trying to misquote the Bible and confuse people.
I never believed in Satan before i met you here in alt.religion.apologetics.
But now i do. If you are not Satan then you are one of his minions. I think
just about anyone that reads a.r.apologetics would back me up on that charge.
Ozzy
> So what? Are you one of those guys getting their jollies from kicking
> the crutches out from under invalids and making fun of the sick?
You forgot loosening the hubs on crippled kids' wheelchairs.
Asshole.
> Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
> whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to
> call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
What in hell does *that* have to do with anything?
ªºª rrock
Ozzy wrote:
Basically he had been answering too many people, hadn't bothered to remember
whom he said what to, had at least two if not three windows open at the time,
and totally confused one set of bullshit with another set of tripe, added some
catsup, didn't bother to reread it, and hit the SEND button.
What part hadn't you noticed from all of his earlier replies to people?
Ozzy
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Ozzy" <father...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1147752252.7...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
> > "Dubh Ghall" <pu...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote in message
> > news:pgdf62hia05se5278...@4ax.com...
No, it won't. People won't voluntarily stupid themselves down.
ªºª rrock
Ozzy wrote:
>
> No, it won't. People won't voluntarily stupid themselves down.
>
People will voluntarily get an education though, even in such things
as grammar and semantics. What's your excuse?
Pastor Frank
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> So what? Are you one of those guys getting their jollies from kicking
>> the crutches out from under invalids and making fun of the sick?
>
> You forgot loosening the hubs on crippled kids' wheelchairs.
> Asshole.
>
>> Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
>> whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not
>> to
>> call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
>
> What in hell does *that* have to do with anything?
>
Well put Ozzie, it's for those "in hell". Obviously you don't know hell
and have no need for a "physician". Most of us Christians go to weekly to a
church, which is a hospital for sinners, and we don't appreciate people
running into our church, (or Christian NG) shouting: You are all
superstitious morons and fools, I am the only one sane around here!!!!
Ozzy
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Ozzy" <father...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1147843435.7...@i39g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >>
> >> So what? Are you one of those guys getting their jollies from kicking
> >> the crutches out from under invalids and making fun of the sick?
> >
> > You forgot loosening the hubs on crippled kids' wheelchairs.
> > Asshole.
> >
> Hmm ..anal fixation!!! Jesus can help ....if you ask for help.
No, I don't want to fuck jesus up the ass, or vice-versa.
> >> Jesus in Mk:2:17: When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are
> >> whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not
> >> to
> >> call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
> >
> > What in hell does *that* have to do with anything?
> >
> Well put Ozzie, it's for those "in hell". Obviously you don't know hell
And I won't, nor will anyone else, because there is no such place.
> and have no need for a "physician".
How 'bout a dentist?
A podiatrist?
A Korean "shiatsu massage therapist?"
> Most of us Christians go to weekly to a
> church,
Well, now that's a waste of a lifetime of Sundays, since if
salvation was any good, you'd only need it once.
> which is a hospital for sinners,
You mean hospital for religious nutbars.
> and we don't appreciate people
> running into our church, (or Christian NG) shouting: You are all
> superstitious morons and fools, I am the only one sane around here!!!!
If you can reach just one.
Pastor Frank
news:44694DE2.AD4B2365@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
> Pastor Frank wrote:
>>
>> opposite
>> from yours. I was born and reared an atheist by Secular Humanist parents.
>> Then when I needed support and had nothing more to lose, -so it didn't
>> matter anymore either way, I asked Christ to come into my life and take
>> over. To my utter amazement He did and comforted me.
>
> ===>Read up on self hypnosis, autosuggestion. -- L.
>
who you are NOT against. If you have noting to advocate apart from hate, why
not post your atheist views to atheist groups already.
*** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
Libertarius
Pastor Frank wrote:
> "Libertarius" <Libertarius@Nothing_But_The.Truth> wrote in message
> news:44694DE2.AD4B2365@Nothing_But_The.Truth...
> > Pastor Frank wrote:
> >>
> >> What "truth" would that be? My experience was diametrically the
> >> opposite
> >> from yours. I was born and reared an atheist by Secular Humanist parents.
> >> Then when I needed support and had nothing more to lose, -so it didn't
> >> matter anymore either way, I asked Christ to come into my life and take
> >> over. To my utter amazement He did and comforted me.
> >
> > ===>Read up on self hypnosis, autosuggestion. -- L.
> >
> Why? Are you against "hypnosis and autosuggestion" too?
===>Not at all.
I only wish to use the honest labels.
> Tell us what, or who you are NOT against.
===>I just did.
I am against dishonesty and deception, as practiced by religionists.
> If you have noting to advocate apart from hate, why
> not post your atheist views to atheist groups already.
===>Atheists do not advocate hate.
Nor do I.
That is a religious idea.
SEE: Luke 14:26.
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate
his own father
and mother
and wife
and children
and brothers
and sisters,
yes, and even his own life,
he cannot be My disciple." -- L.