Protestant Churches on sunday?
Frank Trebor
Baptist:
"There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that
Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will however be readily said, and
with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the
seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties,
privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this
subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask where can the
record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament -
absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the
Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week."
Dr E T Hiscox, author of the "Baptist Manual"
Congregationalist:
"It is quite clear that however rigidly or devotedly we may spend
Sunday, we are not keeping the Sabbath ... The Sabbath was founded
on a specific, divine command. We can plead no such command for the
observance of Sunday ... There is not a single line in the New
Testament to suggest that we incur any penalty by violating the
supposed sanctity of Sunday."
Dr R W Dale "The Ten Commandments," page 106-7.
Lutheran Free Church:
For when there could not be produced one solitary place in the Holy
Scriptures which testified that either the Lord Himself or the
apostles had ordered such a transfer of the Sabbath to Sunday, then
it was not easy to answer the question; Who has transferred the
Sabbath, and who has had the right to do it?"
George Sverdrup, "A New Day."
Protestant Episcopal:
"The day is now changed from the seventh to the first day ... but as
we meet with no Scriptural direction for the change, we mat conclude
that it was done by the authority of the (Roman) church."
"Explanation of Catechism."
Baptist:
"The Scriptures nowhere call the first day of the week the Sabbath.
There is no Scriptural authority for so doing, nor of course, any
Scriptural obligation." "The Watchman."
Presbyterian:
"There is no word, no hint in the New Testament about abstaining
from work on Sunday. The observance of Ash Wednesday, or Lent stands
on exactly the same footing as the observance of Sunday. Into the
rest no Divine Law enters." Canon Eyton, in "The Ten Commandments."
Anglican:
"And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the
first day of the week at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh;
but nowhere are we commanded to keep the first day."
Isaac Williams, "Plain Sermons on the Catechism," p. 334, 336.
Methodist:
"It is true that there is no positive command for infant baptism.
Nor is there any for keeping holy the first day of the week. Many
believe that Christ changed the Sabbath. But, from His own words, we
see that He came for no such purpose. Those who believe that Jesus
changed the Sabbath base it only on a supposition."
Amos Binney, "Theological Compendium," p. 180-181.
Episcopalian:
"We have made the change from the seventh day to the first, from
Saturday to Sunday, on the authority of the one holy, catholic,
(Roman) apostolic church of Christ."
Bishop Seymour, "Why We Keep Sunday."
Southern Baptist:
"The sacred name of the Seventh day is Sabbath. This fact is too
clear to require argument. On this point the plain teaching of the
Word has been admitted in all ages. Not once did the disciples apply
the Sabbath Law to the first day of the week, that folly was left
for a later age, nor did any pretend that the first day supplanted
the seventh."
Joseph Judson Taylor, "The Sabbatic Question," pp. 14,15,16-17,41.
American Congregationalist:
"The current notion that Christ and His apostles authoritatively
substituted the first day for the seventh, is absolutely without any
authority in the New Testament."
Dr Lyman Abbot, in the "Christian Union," June 26 1890.
Christian Church:
"Now there is no testimony in all the oracles of heaven that the
Sabbath is changed, or that the Lord's day came in the room of it."
Alexander Campbell, in "The Reporter," October 8 1921.
Disciples of Christ:
"There is no direct Scriptural authority for designating the first
day 'the Lord's Day.'"
Dr D H Lucas in "The Christian Oracle," January 23 1890.
Baptist:
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus during three years'
discussion with His disciples, often conversing with upon the
Sabbath question, discussing it in some of its various aspects,
freeing it from its false (Jewish traditional) glosses, never
alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during the forty
days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated. Nor, so
far as we know, did the Spirit, which was given to bring to their
remembrance all things whatsoever that He had said unto them, deal
with this question. Nor yet did the inspired apostles, in preaching
the gospel, founding churches, counselling and instructing those
founded, discuss or approach the subject.
"Of course I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in the
early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the
Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes
branded with the mark of Paganism, and christened with the name of
the sun-god, then adopted and sanctified by the Papal apostasy, and
bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism."
Dr E T Hiscox, a report of his sermon at the Baptist Ministers
Convention in the "New York Examiner" November 16 1893.
Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
bulldogsbutt
"Frank Trebor" <frank_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10917959...@drone1-svc-skyt.qsi.net.nz...
Neither is going to church on Saturday or the Sabbath. The Sabbath was
commanded to be a day of REST. It was only on certain feast days that the
Israelites were commanded to go to the Temple.
Instead of following scripture, you have decided to follow the practices of
post exile Jews and their practice of going to synagogue on the Sabbath,
something that is not commanded anywhere in the canon of scripture. You the
condemn others for not following your error. Hypocrite!
BDB
Andrew
>
> "Frank Trebor" wrote:
> >
> > Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
> >
>
> Neither is going to church on Saturday or the Sabbath. The Sabbath was
> commanded to be a day of REST. It was only on certain feast days that the
> Israelites were commanded to go to the Temple.
> Instead of following scripture, you have decided to follow the practices of
> post exile Jews and their practice of going to synagogue on the Sabbath,
If we would just follow the example of Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath,
we would be doing the right thing in this area. He is also the one who will be
our Judge. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
unto the Son" John 5:22. Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in need.
Gabby
"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
news:2ni5k0F...@uni-berlin.de...
> Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
> attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in
need.
So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
Eucharist. As more & more Gentiles became Christians, the practice of
Christians observing the Sabbath gradually disappeared. For many years
Sunday remained a work day, interrupted by the Eucharist but gradually it
became the day of rest some of us remember from our childhood.
Gabby
Andrew
"Gabby" wrote:
>
> "Andrew" wrote:
> > Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by attending public
> > worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in need.
>
> So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
> on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
> Eucharist. As more & more Gentiles became Christians, the practice of
> Christians observing the Sabbath gradually disappeared. For many years
> Sunday remained a work day, interrupted by the Eucharist but gradually it
> became the day of rest some of us remember from our childhood.
But now He is calling us back to the blessings of Sabbathkeeping according
to the command and example of Jesus Christ our Savior, who is the Creator
of heaven and earth the seas and the fountains of waters. "Worship him that
made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev 14:7
"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do
any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid-
servant, nor thy cattle nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days
the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested
the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it"
Exodus 20:10,11
Frank Trebor
"Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com> wrote ...
>
> So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
> on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
> Eucharist. As more & more Gentiles became Christians, the practice of
> Christians observing the Sabbath gradually disappeared. For many years
> Sunday remained a work day, interrupted by the Eucharist but gradually it
> became the day of rest some of us remember from our childhood.
>
institution started many hundreds of years later by the vatican.
As devout Jews, the "Passover" aka "Do this in remembrance of Me"
the New Covenant, was, and still is an ANNUAL feast, made into a daily
blasphemy by the vatican
BTW, the main reason the early Chrisatians started using Sunday was the
fact that the occupying Roman army was persecuting the Jews, and the
Christians wanted to escape this persecution by worshiping on
a DIFFERENT day, not as some incorrectly believe to commemorate
te Resurrection of our Lord.
The biblical teachings concerning communion are radically opposed to the
official Roman Catholic position regarding the mass. While Protestants
view communion as a source of spiritual blessing and a symbolic sacrament
commemorating Christ's sacrifice on our behalf, Catholics claim that it is
the same sacrifice as Christ's death on the cross, and view it as a re-
enactment of Christ's crucifixion on Calvary in an unbloody manner.
Mass is a ritual officiated by a priest it which Christ's body is
recrucified and resacrificed for the atonement of an individual's sins.
Catholicism further teaches that the physical presence of Christ is in the
sacrifice, and that the wine and wafer ("host") are miraculously changed
into the actual blood and body of Jesus Christ (the doctrine of
Transubstantiation).
The Catholic concept of the mass was unheard of in the early church and was
not invented until 831 A.D. by a Benedictine monk named Radbertus. It did
not become an official doctrine until the Fourth Laterin Council in 1215
A.D. The doctrine of Transubstantiation wasn't proclaimed until 1215 A.D.
by Pope Innocent the III, and did not become an official creed until 1564
A.D.
bulldogsbutt
Are you also willing to follow the example of Christ and wear the clothing
commanded for Jewish men in the Law. Jesus must have dressed according to
the Law since we see Him accused often of breaking the Sabbath, but never of
failing to dress according to Law. Are you also going to observe the
Passover since Jesus did. What about Hanukak, Jesus observed that holiday
also. The example Jesus gave us to follow is doing the Fathers will. Jesus
sucinctly tells us what that is.
John 6:29 Jesus told them, "This is what God wants you to do: Believe in the
one he has sent."
Jesus at another time cited two other commandments, love the Lord your God
with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself. When you have
accomplished these, then come back and tell me about the Sabbath.
BDB
Andrew
"bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
in message news:HwYQc.292534$%t6.1...@roc.nntpserver.com...
>
> "Andrew" wrote:
> > If we would just follow the example of Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath,
> > we would be doing the right thing in this area. He is also the one who will be
> > our Judge. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
> > unto the Son" John 5:22. Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
> > attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in need.
>
> one he has sent."
"Here's how we can be sure that we know God in the right way:
Keep his commandments. If someone claims,"I know him well!"
but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a liar. His
life doesn't match his words." 1 John 2:3,4
> Jesus at another time cited two other commandments, love the Lord your God
> with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself. When you have
> accomplished these, then come back and tell me about the Sabbath.
"And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your
soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first com-
mandment. And the second, like it, is this: " You shall love your neighbor
as yourself. 'There is no other commandment greater than these." Mk 12
One cannot love the LORD their God with all their heart, soul, mind and strength
and at the same time have other Gods before them, bow down before idols, take
His name in vain, or desecrate the Sabbath day.
bulldogsbutt
>
> "bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
> in message news:HwYQc.292534$%t6.1...@roc.nntpserver.com...
> >
> > "Andrew" wrote:
> > > If we would just follow the example of Christ who is the Lord of the
Sabbath,
> > > we would be doing the right thing in this area. He is also the one
who will be
> > > our Judge. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all
judgment
> > > unto the Son" John 5:22. Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his
life by
> > > attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in
need.
> >
> > John 6:29 Jesus told them, "This is what God wants you to do: Believe in
the
> > one he has sent."
>
> "Here's how we can be sure that we know God in the right way:
> Keep his commandments. If someone claims,"I know him well!"
> but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a liar. His
> life doesn't match his words." 1 John 2:3,4
The commandments that John was citing was for Christians to love one another
as Christ loved us, not the Ten commandments and also as John later defined
in 1 John 3:23 "This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His
Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.." I don't
think you can find a place in John's writings where he uses 'entole' which
is translated as or to refer to OT law or commandments. When John does make
reference to OT law he uses 'nomos' which is translated as "law."
>
> > Jesus at another time cited two other commandments, love the Lord your
God
> > with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself. When you have
> > accomplished these, then come back and tell me about the Sabbath.
>
> "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all
your
> soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the
first com-
> mandment. And the second, like it, is this: " You shall love your
neighbor
> as yourself. 'There is no other commandment greater than these." Mk
12
>
> One cannot love the LORD their God with all their heart, soul, mind and
strength
> and at the same time have other Gods before them, bow down before idols,
take
> His name in vain, or desecrate the Sabbath day.
>
Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
The point is Andrew, we cannot on this Earth obey the greatest commandment
or the second Greatest commandment for more than a few minutes. No matter
how good we think we are or how hard we try, human selfishness always
arises. When selfishness arises, then when sefishness arises even in the
most minor way we have broken the two greatest commanments. In otherwords,
when you have totally conquered selfishness in all forms then come back and
tell me about the Sabbath. Jesus said it perfectly in Mt 7:1-5 "Do not
judge so that you will not be judged.2 For in the way you judge, you will be
judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.3 Why do
you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the
log that is in your own eye?4 Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me
take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?5
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see
clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Quite frankly we all have enough logs in our eyes that we could collectively
reforest the entire planet.
BDB
Andrew
"bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
in message news:cq8Rc.310041$%t6.5...@roc.nntpserver.com...
>
> The point is Andrew, we cannot on this Earth obey the greatest commandment
> or the second Greatest commandment for more than a few minutes. No matter
> how good we think we are or how hard we try, human selfishness always
> arises. When selfishness arises, then when sefishness arises even in the
> most minor way we have broken the two greatest commanments.
This is very true of the carnal and unconverted mind. That's why Jesus said,
"Ye must be born again" ..and.."Except a man be born again, he cannot see
the kingdom of God."
Why would God give a commandment that would be impossible for us to
keep with His help? ......and then send us to the fire if we do not keep it??
"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
and his angels.. Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
ye did it not to me." Matt 25
Who is He talking to? ..those who did not obey this love commandment
that you are talking about, and that you say "we cannot on this Earth obey."
bulldogsbutt
>
> "bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
> in message news:cq8Rc.310041$%t6.5...@roc.nntpserver.com...
> >
> > The point is Andrew, we cannot on this Earth obey the greatest
commandment
> > or the second Greatest commandment for more than a few minutes. No
matter
> > how good we think we are or how hard we try, human selfishness always
> > arises. When selfishness arises, then when sefishness arises even in
the
> > most minor way we have broken the two greatest commanments.
>
> This is very true of the carnal and unconverted mind. That's why Jesus
said,
> "Ye must be born again" ..and.."Except a man be born again, he cannot see
> the kingdom of God."
Have you achieved sinless perfection? If not then you can only control your
selfishness for short periods of time. If you have achieved perfection then
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not
in us."
>
> Why would God give a commandment that would be impossible for us to
> keep with His help? ......and then send us to the fire if we do not keep
it??
Because we live under grace and not under law. Christ's blood atones for
all of my sin, past present and future. When we are saved we become adopted
sons of God. We are not perfect and although God desires for us to be
perfect He also knows that in as long as we in our human flesh we are
incapable of perfection. If you have children you will understand this.
They do things that disapoint you, anger you, frustrate you, but they can
never cease being your children and, with most people, cease being loved as
our children. God is called our Father in the NT to help us understand our
relationship to Him. Just as with earthly fathers when we sin there may be
consequences and with unrepentant sin there will be consequences. When you
punish a child it is because they have done something that is either an act
of rebellion or it is an act that can cause them physical harm. You don't
disown your children for acting like children. God does not disown us
because we act like humans.
>
> "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
> and his angels.. Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
> ye did it not to me." Matt 25
Sorry, I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus did not say that those who
gained eternal life acted unselfishly at EVERY turn. Nor did he say that
those who were punished were done so because they never acted unselfishly.
Secondarily, Jesus is describing the judgment of the nations, not of
individuals. The Greek word for nations is 'ethos' from which we get our
word 'ethnic.'
>
> Who is He talking to? ..those who did not obey this love commandment
> that you are talking about, and that you say "we cannot on this Earth
obey."
>
As I wrote earlier, if you can perfectly obey the two greatest commandments
then you can come talk to me about the Sabboth. However, if you claim to be
sinless then you are deceiving yourself as John said.
BDB
>
Cindy
Well unless you believe John and Paul taught opposing doctrines
regarding this, which I do not believe you do, then plainly it is fact
that in loving our neighbour we are to keep the part of the ten
commandments regarding them. Paul flat out bluntly states this:
Rom 13:8-9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that
loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit
adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not
bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other
commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love your neighbour is a condensed version of those commandments. That
is what Paul was inspired by God to write and explain, and as he
believed, as do I, and you do not.
What commandments are briefly comprehended in this saying Larry?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the
prophets.
~ Cindy
bulldogsbutt
"Cindy" <cyn...@localline.com> wrote in message
news:2nllelF...@uni-berlin.de...
Love your neighbor includes the some of the Ten Commandments, but it goes
far beyond that. Paul is not saying that love your neighbor is limited to
the decalogue.
>
> What commandments are briefly comprehended in this saying Larry?
> Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with
> all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
> Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Far more than what you believe it is. It includes commands like pray
without ceasing; in everything give thanks; believe in the name of His Son,
Jesus Christ; rejoice always; do not quench the Spirit; commit your way to
the Lord; trust in the Lord; Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by
prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to
God...
You get the idea, it goes far beyond the limits of the decalogue.
>
>
> Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
> neighbour as thyself.
Far more than what you believe it is. It includes commands like; love your
enemies; do good to those who hate you; lend, expecting nothing in return;
be merciful, just as your Father is merciful; do not judge; do not condemn;
bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you; ive to everyone
who asks of you; treat others the same way you want them to treat you....
You get the idea, it goes far beyond the limits of the decalogue.
>
> Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the
> prophets.
>
Correct, ALL of the Law and the prophets, which means all of the various and
sundry commands that are in the OT. Do you obey ALL of the Law? You and I
both know that you don't. You choose certain laws that you deem as
applicable to today and ignore others as being archaic and ceremonial. You
follow the laws of clean and unclean foods, but do you follow the rest of
the laws of clean and unclean? You observe the Sabbath command, but do you
observe Passover or the feast of tabernacles? Again, you make a choice
based on what you wish to follow, not based on what is commanded in ALL the
law and the prophets.
BDB
Griz
Jesus also commanded us to "be perfect, even as the Father is perfect". Why
would He give us a commandment that would be impossible for us to keep?
Yet in Him, after we have grown and matured into Him, will some day be a
part of the perfection that is God. But if we start thinking our perfection
is now and is experiential, pride flares and negates us.
I think bulldog's comments are accurate and that there may be something
fundamental missing in your comprehension of God's nature vs our nature.
1. We are commanded to be perfect even as God is perfect.
2. We are told that none is perfect, for all have sinned.
3. If we somehow convince ourselves that it must be possible to be perfect
as it is commanded, it is then necessary to start believing that we indeed
are experiencially perfect -- or else that construct falls apart. So the
construct is safeguarded at all costs as one's salvation. So one starts
actually believing that they are perfect and that they are actually obeying
every single command that has ever proceeded from the mouth of God.
4. That is where pride comes in, (along with the desire to condemn others
whom we believe are not as perfect in their acts of law as we are), and a
miriad of other commands are broken.
It's a trap of the flesh.
Our perfection is substitutional while we are in the flesh. Jesus' perfect
life in which all of the Law was fulfilled, is imputed onto us as we put out
faith totally in Him. His righteousness becomes our righteousness. But it
is not a righteousness (nor a perfection) of the self. We simply wear it as
a garment.
Our faith is in Him, and we are saved by His grace and mercy alone. If we
start thinking that we have arrived because Jesus has simply helped us obey
acts of law or simpy helped us to be perfect -- then we still have God cast
as a support-player to the star: who is still us.
It is only when we realize that He is the star and we are only in His play
by His grace and mercy, that the back of selfishness and pride are broken.
That is why the various constructs of Jesus being second-fiddle to us and
our perfection and our setting aside the carnal and our ability to perform
acts of law, are insidious traps. It is only when we realize our totally
wretched nature AND our helplessness against sin in the flesh, that the
renewing of the heart and mind begin. And that which has been renewed can
just as easily degenerate if our eyes are taken off of Christ and put upon
us and how He simply "assists us".
Remember, we are also commanded to walk on water and serpents, heal the
sick, raise the dead. If we are told to do these things, they must be
possible in Him. Right?
Yet we don't see a lot of these things happening because we are still
wallowing in various traps of pride and flesh -- even while pride convinces
us that we are perfect and that our acts of law are exemplary.
Pride and sin are lifelong traps -- left set and ready to snap the very
instant our eyes are off of Christ and onto ourselves.
Another potential misunderstanding I see in your response, is the idea that
the instant we are not perfect, we are eligible to be cast into hell should
we perish at that moment. God uses the analogy of Father and children for a
reason. Do you disown your own children because they err? Or even because
they are stubborn and continue in error for a season? If you did, you would
not be much of a father.
We see spiritual stubbornness in the Jews, in the Gentiles, in David, in
Thomas, in Peter -- in so many. Yet they were God's children and He
nurtures and husbands those who are His.
It is never a good thing to persist in error or in stubbornness over
repenting of our sins. We should always be on short accounts with God.
Indeed, if we make a habit of walking with Him daily, the Holy Spirit will
tell us in our hearts that communion is broken by something -- and we will
rush to find out what it is and set it straight.
But does our Heavenly Father slap a "ship to hell" sticker on us every time
we mess up?
That's a God I don't recognize. He is a Just and a Holy God and there WILL
be a Righteous Judgment on a day that no man knows -- so there is cause for
sobering and holy 'fear' that keeps us from persisting in sin.
But it is not a fear that should make us form constructs of tricking
ourselves into believing that we are perfect or that our acts of law are
exemplary -- because God commands it and all He commands must be possible.
That is a process to be cautious of. Indeed, any process that has us
comparing our acts of law or our perfection or our righteousness to others
as a point of condemnation, only confirms that flesh and sin and pride are
still present.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Andrew
> Andrew said:
>
> "bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
> in message news:cq8Rc.310041$%t6.5...@roc.nntpserver.com...
> >>
> >> The point is Andrew, we cannot on this Earth obey the greatest commandment
> >> or the second Greatest commandment for more than a few minutes. No matter
> >> how good we think we are or how hard we try, human selfishness always
> >> arises. When selfishness arises, then when sefishness arises even in the
> >> most minor way we have broken the two greatest commanments.
> >
> >This is very true of the carnal and unconverted mind. That's why Jesus said,
> >"Ye must be born again" ..and.."Except a man be born again, he cannot see
> >the kingdom of God."
> >
> >Why would God give a commandment that would be impossible for us to
> >keep with His help? ......and then send us to the fire if we do not keep it??
> >
> >"Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil
> > and his angels.. Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these,
> > ye did it not to me." Matt 25
> >
> >Who is He talking to? ..those who did not obey this love commandment
> >that you are talking about, and that you say "we cannot on this Earth obey."
>
>
> Jesus also commanded us to "be perfect, even as the Father is perfect". Why
> would He give us a commandment that would be impossible for us to keep?
This was in the context of loving our enemies. Jesus did this. If you say that we
cannot love our enemies, that it is not possible.. then you are saying in effect that
Jesus is unreasonable and even lying to us in that He presumes that it IS possible
by telling us to do just that.
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them
that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun
to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans
the same?
5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the
publicans so?
5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
> Yet in Him, after we have grown and matured into Him, will some day be a
> part of the perfection that is God.
I don't see that we will ever achieve absolute perfection, but we can have the perfection
that He requires of us in Jesus Christ our Savior, and that in His strength (and ONLY in
HIS strength) we may do all that He asks us to do.
> But if we start thinking our perfection is now and is experiential, pride flares and negates us.
The one who is close to Christ is thinking about Him, not about himself.
> I think bulldog's comments are accurate..
Oh really??!! He says it is *not possible* to obey what God tells us to do (except for
maybe only a "few minutes"). This represents a philosophy that acknowledges God but
denies His power. We have been warned that this would be one of the characteristics of
the iniquitous conditions of the last days (2 Tim 3:1-5).
> and that there may be something fundamental missing in your comprehension
> of God's nature vs our nature.
That's why I mentioned what Jesus said, "Ye must be born again"..and.."Except a man
be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." This involves a transformation of
nature. God's program is for us to be "partakers of the divine nature" and escape "the
corruption that is in the world" 2 Peter 1:4, through the merits of and through the power
of Jesus Christ our Savior.
Misty
GAbby you are looking "TRADITION" right in the face and those that follow
the beast. Nuff said.
Misty,
Gabby
"Misty" <""yardholler\"@Nospam,charter.net> wrote in message
news:10he47m...@corp.supernews.com...
Oh? Just how faithfully do you follow all the laws of Leviticus? Or did
your TRADITION drop the ritual bath? The food laws? The clothing laws?
Gabby
Andrew
>
> "Misty" wrote:
> > Gabby wrote:
> > > "Andrew" wrote:
> > >
> > >> Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by attending public
> > >> worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in need.
> > >
> > > So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
> > > on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
> > > Eucharist. As more & more Gentiles became Christians, the practice of
> > > Christians observing the Sabbath gradually disappeared. For many years
> > > Sunday remained a work day, interrupted by the Eucharist but gradually it
> > > became the day of rest some of us remember from our childhood.
> > >
> > > Gabby
> > >
> >
> > GAbby you are looking "TRADITION" right in the face and those that follow
> > the beast. Nuff said.
>
> Oh? Just how faithfully do you follow all the laws of Leviticus? Or did
> your TRADITION drop the ritual bath? The food laws? The clothing laws?
>
> Gabby
The problem with *tradition* is if or when it violates God's commandments.
For those who give themselves to Jesus, this is something they will not want
to do.
"Why do ye.. transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?" Matt 15:3
"Why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?" (NLT)
The law of Moses is not a requirement for the Christian, but we ARE admonished
in the keeping of the commandments of God.The Sabbath commandment is in the
very heart of God's law and is not a human tradition; whereas Sundaykeeping IS a
human tradition not in accordance with the commandments of God.
Griz
>This was in the context of loving our enemies. Jesus did this. If you say
that >we cannot love our enemies, that it is not possible.. then you are
saying in effect >that Jesus is unreasonable and even lying to us in that He
presumes that it IS >possible by telling us to do just that.
I see and honour the context.
God's perfection however, doesn't just extend to loving enemies. The
'perfection of the Father' extends to all things. Jesus doesn't say "treat
your enemies as God does". He says "Be ye perfect, even as the Father is
perfect". And God is perfect in ALL ways.
I know you need to dismiss this point, but I believe it is one that simply
will not 'go away'.
>> Yet in Him, after we have grown and matured into Him, will some day be a
>> part of the perfection that is God.
>I don't see that we will ever achieve absolute perfection, but we can have
the >perfection
>that He requires of us in Jesus Christ our Savior, and that in His strength
(and >ONLY in HIS strength) we may do all that He asks us to do.
Yet which of us does ALL that He asks us to do?
Rom 3:-12.
Even those of us who may think we are performing wonderously for God, have
no idea of all that He yearns to do through us. And in thinking we are
performing wonderously (or even 'adequately'), pride is ready to pounce on
us. It is all to easy to start comparing our 'righteousness' (even as we
boast of it as in Christ) to that of others and that is the seed for
condemnational thoughts and actions.
>> But if we start thinking our perfection is now and is experiential, pride
flares >>and negates us.
>The one who is close to Christ is thinking about Him, not about himself.
Exactly Andrew.
Being close to Christ is to understand that He NEVER tried to marginalize
anyone over a day. He followed the Sabbath command in the way it was meant
to be followed (irking a few in the process), because He was born as a Jew
under the law -- and had to bring total fulfillment of the law in his flesh
so that victory might be shared with us. We are clearly told that nobody is
saved by works of law. Or by the condemnation that can come from the
paradigm of seeking after works of law.
>> I think bulldog's comments are accurate..
>Oh really??!! He says it is *not possible* to obey what God tells us to
do >>(except for
>maybe only a "few minutes"). This represents a philosophy that acknowledges
>God but
>denies His power. We have been warned that this would be one of the
>characteristics of
>the iniquitous conditions of the last days (2 Tim 3:1-5).
It is possible.
But boasting in it is a perfect doorway to pride and sin -- manifest in the
condemantion of others on points of law that we may feel we have "down pat".
We don't comprehend the mind of God. Not in the flesh. But as His Spirit
comes upon us He begins the process of renewing our hearts and minds. What
was not possible for even a few minutes becomes possible for longer and
longer periods of time. But as soon as we boast "Hey, I've gone a whole
week without sinning", we negate ourselves with flesh and pride.
>That's why I mentioned what Jesus said, "Ye must be born
again"..and.."Except >a man
>be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." This involves a
>transformation of
>nature. God's program is for us to be "partakers of the divine nature" and
>escape "the
>corruption that is in the world" 2 Peter 1:4, through the merits of and
through >the power
>of Jesus Christ our Savior.
Agreed.
The transformation according to God's Spirit is essential. Without it, no
man can please God. But we need to remember that we please Him as a child
pleases their parents by not crapping in their pants. We are infants who
are learning how not to soil ourselves regularly. It is a process. The
renewing of the mind is both an event; and a process.
We need to honour it as such lest we become hostages to pride once again and
begin boasting and even condemning others over something as simple as . . .
a day.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>What do some of the Protestant Churches say about sunday?
>
that did NOT necessarily reflect the teachings of the bodies you
claimed they represented.>
Most of us Christians recognize that the Sabbath is part of *THE LAW,*
and that we Christians are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW; it was a tutor for
us UNTIL JESUS CAME.
Now EVERY DAY IS HOLY. EVERY DAY is a day we worship.
The Sabbath was never given as a day to go to church anyway, although
the Jews were doing so by the time of Christ's earthly ministry. But
that was NOT part of the Law.
And you couldn't pick up sticks, clean your yard, do your wash, cook
meals, or anything that required labor of you or your slaves (the
waitress at the restaraunt?) either.
>
>Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
>
But Sunday MEETINGS IS practiced in the Bible.
Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came
together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to
them and continued his message until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upper room where they were gathered
together.
9 And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was
sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul
continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up
dead.
10 But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, "Do not
trouble yourselves, for his life is in him."
11 Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a
long while, even till daybreak, he departed.
12 And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a
little comforted.
That looks like a worship service to me!
1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I
have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something
aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when
I come.
Hmmm. They took up the collection on the first day of the week too!
We Baptists do that too!
But we worship and serve the Lord EVERY DAY, not just on Saturday.
Christian
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
AND RESURRECTION we are no longer under the Law.
We are in a different situation than He was.
Christian
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>
>"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
>news:2ni5k0F...@uni-berlin.de...
>> Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
>> attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in
>need.
>
>So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
>on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
>Eucharist.
There is no "Eucharist" in the Bible. They broke bread, not flesh or
bones.
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>x-no-archive: yes
>On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 12:48:16 -0700, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
>wrote:
> copyright 2004 John Weatherly (keep it in the group, folks)
>
>
>Ex 31:16-17
>
>Sabbath is for the Jews. Most of today's Christians are NOT Jews.
>
>And you continue in your apostasy and DEFY Paul.
>
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have
put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male nor female; for you
are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs
according to the promise.
Enuff said.
No, ALL Christians are "Abraham's seed and heirs according to the
promise."
Christian
Andrew
<chri...@velocitus.net> wrote: in message news:qpofh0p7n9pp0jkp2...@4ax.com...
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"
~Rom 6:15~
TDP
> Hello "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com>,
>you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>>
>>"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
>>news:2ni5k0F...@uni-berlin.de...
>>> Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
>>> attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in
>>need.
>>
>>So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
>>on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
>>Eucharist.
>
>There is no "Eucharist" in the Bible. They broke bread, not flesh or
>bones.
Stop repeating shallow thinking stupidity.....
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:50:59 -0600, chri...@velocitus.net wrote:
>
>> Hello "Gabby" <Lavol...@msn.com>,
>>you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>>>
>>>"Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net> wrote in message
>>>news:2ni5k0F...@uni-berlin.de...
>>>> Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
>>>> attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in
>>>need.
>>>
>>>So did the first Christians who were also devout Jews. They then gathered
>>>on Sunday to commemorate the Resurrection with the celebration of the
>>>Eucharist.
>>
>>There is no "Eucharist" in the Bible. They broke bread, not flesh or
>>bones.
>
>Stop repeating shallow thinking stupidity.....
Sorry you think that TRUTH is shallow thinking or stupidity.
Ah well, you are you. . .
Christian
chri...@velocitus.net
So we continue to worship EVERY moment of EVERY day, not just on the
Sabbath.
And after all, the Sabbath WAS NOT SET ASIDE AS A DAY OF WORSHIP. NOT
EVER.
Christian
Frank Trebor
<chri...@velocitus.net> wrote in message ...
> that did NOT necessarily reflect the teachings of the bodies you
> claimed they represented.>
And you speak for them? - Not likely !
> Most of us Christians recognize that the Sabbath is part of *THE LAW,*
> and that we Christians are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW; it was a tutor for
> us UNTIL JESUS CAME.
So, if YOU are "NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW" as YOU claim,
does that mean you free to BREAK all of God's LAW. Which is:-
Ex 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto
thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,
or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy
God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children
unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing
mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. 7 Thou
shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not
hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. 7 Remember the sabbath day,
to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But
the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do
any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy
maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is , and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath
day, and hallowed it. 12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may
be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. 13 Thou shalt not
kill. 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. 15 Thou shalt not steal. 16 Thou
shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17 Thou shalt not covet
thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his
manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that
is thy neighbour's.
> Now EVERY DAY IS HOLY. EVERY DAY is a day we worship.
Correct. Every day has ALWAYS been (and always will be) HOLY.
God onlt SANCTIFIED and BLESSED only one day - the SEVENTH
> The Sabbath was never given as a day to go to church anyway, although
> the Jews were doing so by the time of Christ's earthly ministry. But
> that was NOT part of the Law.
This is ANOTHER gospel, preached by satan's advocates
> And you couldn't pick up sticks, clean your yard, do your wash, cook
> meals, or anything that required labor of you or your slaves (the
> waitress at the restaraunt?) either.
These are MAN made laws, Jesus showed that when He alledgedly
"broke the Sabbath" but in fact He "was without sin"
> >Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
> But Sunday MEETINGS IS practiced in the Bible.
> Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came
> together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to
> them and continued his message until midnight.
It looks like (to me anyway) that you do not even understand what is
written in God's Holy Book! - Here let me put it in todays English
"On (what we call) Saturday evening, when the discipled gathered
for a meal, Paul spoke to them untill midnight, as he was to depart
at daybreak"
That is how the MAJORITY of Bible scholars understand this verse.
(including the Anglicans [Episcopalian] from whence I came
before I learned the truth about the Sabbath.)
> 12 And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a
> little comforted.
> That looks like a worship service to me!
Not to me - Just a farewell meeting as Paul was going to break the
Sunday (Sabbath) law on TRAVEL - Not likely!
> 1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I
> have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
> 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something
> aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when
These verses were explained by another - but just in case you forgot -
The congregation was to "lay something aside" (at home) so as to be
ready with their offering when thay met on the SABBATH
when Paul arrived to take it with him for distrebution to the poor!
> Hmmm. They took up the collection on the first day of the week too!
> We Baptists do that too!
> But we worship and serve the Lord EVERY DAY, not just on Saturday.
But on the SABBATH, like "most" other so-called Christians,
"most" of you blaspheme the Sabbath by breaking the 4th
Commandment by working for money.
Jesus showed us that it is OK to prepare and eat (He did in the cornfield)
and to do work for His Father - God.
Christian, just in case you didn't read them properly,
and it seems you didn't,
here they are again
Baptist:
"There was and is a command to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that
Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will however be readily said, and
with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the
seventh to the first day of the week, with all its duties,
privileges and sanctions. Earnestly desiring information on this
subject, which I have studied for many years, I ask where can the
record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament -
absolutely not. There is no scriptural evidence of the change of the
Sabbath institution from the seventh to the first day of the week."
Dr E T Hiscox, author of the "Baptist Manual"
Baptist:
"The Scriptures nowhere call the first day of the week the Sabbath.
There is no Scriptural authority for so doing, nor of course, any
Scriptural obligation." "The Watchman."
Southern Baptist:
"The sacred name of the Seventh day is Sabbath. This fact is too
clear to require argument. On this point the plain teaching of the
Word has been admitted in all ages. Not once did the disciples apply
the Sabbath Law to the first day of the week, that folly was left
for a later age, nor did any pretend that the first day surplanted
the seventh."
Joseph Judson Taylor, "The Sabbatic Question," pp. 14,15,16-17,41.
Baptist:
"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus during three years'
discussion with His disciples, often conversing with upon the
Sabbath question, discussing it in some of its various aspects,
freeing it from its false (Jewish traditional) glosses, never
alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during the forty
days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated. Nor, so
far as we know, did the Spirit, which was given to bring to their
remembrance all things whatsoever that He had said unto them, deal
with this question. Nor yet did the imspired apostles, in preaching
the gospel, founding churches, counseling and instructing those
founded, discuss or approach the subject.
"Of course I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in the
early Christian history as a religious day, as we learn from the
Christian Fathers and other sources. But what a pity that it comes
branded with the mark of Pagenism, and christened with the name of
the sun-god, then adopted and sanctified by the Papal apostasy, and
bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism."
Dr E T Hiscox, a report of his sermon at the Bptist Ministers
Convention in the "New York Examiner" November 16 1893.
Misty
Gabby wrote:
> "Misty" <""yardholler\"@Nospam,charter.net> wrote in message
> news:10he47m...@corp.supernews.com...
>
>>
>>>
>>
>>GAbby you are looking "TRADITION" right in the face and those that follow
>>the beast. Nuff said.
>
>
> Oh? Just how faithfully do you follow all the laws of Leviticus? Or did
> your TRADITION drop the ritual bath? The food laws? The clothing laws?
>
> Gabby
>
>
Come back and talk to me when you get a clue as to what Christianity really is.
You can not inherit Christian Faith from your parents.
Jesus Builds His house on The Rock.
All other faiths are sinking sands of time.
It looks like you are in up to your neck.
Christians are under the Grace of God.
The Grace of God takes the Law out of our way. Now we have love both for
our neighbor and for God.
If you loved me you would not be accusing as you are.
Satan is the head accuser of the Saints and he has been a liar from the beginning.
REad your bible New Testament (witness) and then come back and talk to us, Ok?
Especially the Pauline letters.
M,
chri...@velocitus.net
>
><chri...@velocitus.net> wrote in message ...
>> Hello "Frank Trebor" <frank_...@hotmail.com>,
>> <snipped it all. . .all of the "oddball" statements taken from sources
>> that did NOT necessarily reflect the teachings of the bodies you
>> claimed they represented.>
>
>And you speak for them? - Not likely !
I never claimed to, I just pointed out that you misrepresented what I
know are the positions of several of the groups you quoted. Knowing
you are misrepresenting a group does not make me their spokesman. Not
any more than when you quote an "oddball" quotation from one of their
members it makes YOU their spokesperson.
The 10 commandments. PART of the 613 laws of "THE LAW."
So?
Jesus fulfilled the WHOLE LAW. Now we are are under HIS GRACE, no
longer under the Law.
Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the
promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to
those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept
for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we
might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on
Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,
there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs
according to the promise.
READ verses 24 and 25. We are no longer under the Law.
Of course Jesus spoke against every one of the 10 EXCEPT keeping the
Sabbath for Christians.
>> Now EVERY DAY IS HOLY. EVERY DAY is a day we worship.
>
>Correct. Every day has ALWAYS been (and always will be) HOLY.
>God onlt SANCTIFIED and BLESSED only one day - the SEVENTH
Every day is Blessed. Every day is from the Lord.
>
>> The Sabbath was never given as a day to go to church anyway, although
>> the Jews were doing so by the time of Christ's earthly ministry. But
>> that was NOT part of the Law.
>
>This is ANOTHER gospel, preached by satan's advocates
SHOW ME. SHOW ME WHERE THE LAW SAID THE SABBATH WAS GIVEN FOR
SYNAGOGUE.
You cannot; it isn't there. You can only LIE and call it "another
gospel. . ." Calling it names doesn't change the fact it is not
there.
If it is there, SURELY YOU CAN SHOW US. CHAPTER AND VERSE.
>
>> And you couldn't pick up sticks, clean your yard, do your wash, cook
>> meals, or anything that required labor of you or your slaves (the
>> waitress at the restaraunt?) either.
>
>These are MAN made laws, Jesus showed that when He alledgedly
>"broke the Sabbath" but in fact He "was without sin"
He was indeed. BUT, God's Law said you could not pick up sticks. The
restaraunts etc. . .maybe manmade law, but not the sticks.
Exodus 35:1 Then Moses gathered all the congregation of the children
of Israel together, and said to
them, "These are the words which the LORD has commanded you to do:
2 "Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a
holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to
the LORD. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
3 "You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath
day."
Can't do any work on the Sabbath. Or you are to be killed.
Are you going to take PART of that Law and IGNORE THE REST?
>
>> >Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
>> But Sunday MEETINGS IS practiced in the Bible.
>> Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came
>> together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to
>> them and continued his message until midnight.
>
>It looks like (to me anyway) that you do not even understand what is
>written in God's Holy Book! - Here let me put it in todays English
And you think the above scripture is in French? Or German? Perhaps
Dutch?
Naah, it is a modern-day ENGLISH translation.
>
>"On (what we call) Saturday evening, when the discipled gathered
>for a meal, Paul spoke to them untill midnight, as he was to depart
>at daybreak"
NO LONGER the Sabbath, BUT the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK by the Hebrew
definition.
>
>That is how the MAJORITY of Bible scholars understand this verse.
>(including the Anglicans [Episcopalian] from whence I came
>before I learned the truth about the Sabbath.)
>
>> 12 And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a
>> little comforted.
>> That looks like a worship service to me!
>
>Not to me - Just a farewell meeting as Paul was going to break the
>Sunday (Sabbath) law on TRAVEL - Not likely!
Paul was NOT under the Law at all. He, like I, was under the Grace of
Jesus Christ. NOT under the tutor (Law). So he didn't break ANYTHING
by preaching on the FIRST DAY of the week.
Acts 20:7 Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came
together to break bread, Paul, ready to depart
the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight.
8 There were many lamps in the upper room where they were gathered
together.
9 And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was
sinking into a deep sleep. He
was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down
from the third story and was taken
up dead.
10 But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, "Do not
trouble yourselves, for his life is in
him."
11 Now when he had come up, had broken bread and eaten, and talked a
long while, even till daybreak, he
departed.
Verse 7 says THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK. You can "redefine" it to mean
anything you want, but it was NOT THE SABBATH (7th day), but the FIRST
DAY OF THE WEEK.
>
>> 1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I
>> have given orders to the churches of Galatia, so you must do also:
>> 2 On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something
>> aside, storing up as he may prosper, that there be no collections when
>
>These verses were explained by another - but just in case you forgot -
>The congregation was to "lay something aside" (at home)
NOT A WORD about "at home" in the whole passage. You have to ADD THAT
to CHANGE ITS MEANING to fit your religion's system of belief.
>so as to be
>ready with their offering when thay met on the SABBATH
NOT A WORD about "the SABBATH" in the whole passage either. You have
to ADD THAT to CHANGE ITS MEANING to fit your religion's system of
belief there too.
>when Paul arrived to take it with him for distrebution to the poor!
>
>> Hmmm. They took up the collection on the first day of the week too!
>> We Baptists do that too!
>> But we worship and serve the Lord EVERY DAY, not just on Saturday.
>
>But on the SABBATH, like "most" other so-called Christians,
>"most" of you blaspheme the Sabbath by breaking the 4th
>Commandment by working for money.
Since Christians are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW, your position is
completely false. I am sorry your religion has lied to you.
Galatians 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the
law, kept for the faith which would afterward be
revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we
might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Galatians 2:15 "We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the
Gentiles,
16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but
by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have
believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in
Christ and not by the works of the law; for by
the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves
also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a
minister of sin? Certainly not!
18 "For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make
myself a transgressor.
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me; and the life which I
now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me
and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes
through the law, then Christ died in
vain."
Galatians 4:1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does
not differ at all from a slave,
though he is master of all,
2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the
father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the
elements of the world.
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son,
born of a woman, born under the
law,
5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the
adoption as sons.
6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son
into your hearts, crying out, "Abba,
Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then
an heir of God through Christ.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be
justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of
sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed,
being witnessed by the Law and the
Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to
all and on all who believe. For there is
no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is
in Christ Jesus,
25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith,
to demonstrate His righteousness,
because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were
previously committed,
26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He
might be just and the justifier of the one
who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No,
but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from
the deeds of the law.
Naah, we are not under the Law or justified by the Law; we are under
Jesus Christ, APART FROM THE LAW (vs 28).
>Jesus showed us that it is OK to prepare and eat (He did in the cornfield)
>and to do work for His Father - God.
And God showed Peter we can now eat "unclean" things such as pork
which God has cleansed (peter's vision).
>
>Christian, just in case you didn't read them properly,
>and it seems you didn't, here they are again
>
<snipped them again since they still do not represent the positions of
the groups you would have us believe they represent>
>
>Sunday sacredness is not commanded or practiced in the Bible.
>
EVERY DAY sacredness IS.
And Christians are NOT under the Law.
And unless you are willing to KILL PEOPLE FOR WORKING ON THE SABBATH,
you are not keeping that Law.
Christian
Frank Trebor
<chri...@velocitus.net> wrote in message ...
> And Christians are NOT under the Law.
You say that the TEN is a part of the 613 - NOT SO!
603 of them were nailed to the cross - the TEN remain
Christian if you really are a "Christian" and one of Christ's
you will be keeping His COMMANDMENTS! ( The TEN )
Matt 19:17 ... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved
of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,
if we keep his commandments.
REV 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life,
and may enter in through the gates into the city.
There are many MANY more I could quote,
but as you are preaching another gospel,
good luck to you on judgement day!
chri...@velocitus.net
<frank_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
><chri...@velocitus.net> wrote in message ...
>
>> And Christians are NOT under the Law.
>
>You say that the TEN is a part of the 613 - NOT SO!
>603 of them were nailed to the cross - the TEN remain
So YOUR RELIGION sez. But SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE!
>
> Christian if you really are a "Christian" and one of Christ's
>you will be keeping His COMMANDMENTS! ( The TEN )
>
>Matt 19:17 ... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Let's see now. If you read the WHOLE passage you find that. . .
a. Jesus was NOT YET CRUCIFIED and the penalty was not paid.
b. The man was a Jew, under the WHOLE LAW.
>
>John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
"MY commandments," NOT "the TEN commandments." We DO follow the
"commands" of Christ. HE did not tell Christians to worship on the
Sabbath. Instead he told them it was okay to pull the ox out of the
ditch, heal the sick, and do other good works on the Sabbath, that the
Sabbath was made for them, not they for the Sabbath. THEN He was
crucified and fulfilled the Law, taking them all out from UNDER the
Law.
NO PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613.
>
>John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
>he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved
>of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Again (as in the previous passage) in the Greek it is literally "my
commands," and refers to what Jesus gave the disciples (including us),
and NOT the Law. It does NOT SAY "the TEN commandments anywhere." NO
PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613. ONLY YOUR RELIGION
does that.
>
>1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him,
>if we keep his commandments.
Exactly the same as the previous ones.
>
>REV 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments,
>that they may have right to the tree of life,
>and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Exactly the same as the previous ones again.
>
>There are many MANY more I could quote,
>but as you are preaching another gospel,
>good luck to you on judgement day!
>
You may falsely accuse me of "preaching another gospel" all you wish
(the Sabbath IS NEVER CALLED PART OF THE GOSPEL BTW), but it just
makes a liar out of you
And on judgement day. . .
in Christ Jesus
Christian
A person who keeps EVERY day Holy and worships without ceasing.
Melody456
>There are many MANY more I could quote,
>but as you are preaching another gospel,
>good luck to you on judgement day!
Romans 6:14-15 does not in anyway contradict that. Let's examine this
closely.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the
law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but
under grace? God forbid.
Paul defined a little earlier in that same letter what our relationship
to the law should be: (emphasis my own)
Romans 2:14-15
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, DO BY NATURE the
things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT the law, ARE a law UNTO
THEMSELVES:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their
conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while
accusing or else excusing one another;)
People tend to be afraid of the word "grace" and the phrase "new
covenant". The new covenant is that the law is "written in our hearts",
like it says in Hebrews (twice) Hebrews 8:10 and 10:16
It seems that David, Solomon, Isaiah and Jeremiah also understood this
concept:
Psalm 40:8
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is WITHIN MY HEART.
Proverbs 3:1-2
1 My son, forget not my law; but LET THINE HEART keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee
Isaiah 51:7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people IN
WHOSE HEART is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye
afraid of their revilings.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the
house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in
their inward parts, and WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
You see, the difference is that God is not treating us like the people
in the days of Moses. Does anyone else think it strange that supposed
followers of God actually had to be *told* that killing was wrong? I
mean... Ya think so?? The very fact that such is obvious to most of us
goes to show that God's law is written in our hearts to one degree or
another.
If it's not written in our hearts, keeping the whole law, precept by
precept to the very last jot and tittle, will do no good! Jesus will
say to us on judgment day "I never KNEW you". KNOWING GOD is essential
for everything we do. God wants us to KNOW him!
The Lord indeed looks on the heart. If someone is not "convinced in
their own mind" of the Sabbath rest, there's the condensed version of
the law "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as
yourself". The Sabbath Day cannot be a delight to anyone on the face of
this earth who is simply keeping it from a legalistic perspective.
I'd say it's a good guess that many Sunday keepers will make it to
heaven before Sabbath keepers... Keeping the Sabbath doesn't save
anyone.
God reads the innermost desire of our hearts.
In Christ,
Melody
>
>
Frank Trebor
<chri...@velocitus.net> wrote ...
> >You say that the TEN is a part of the 613 - NOT SO!
> >603 of them were nailed to the cross - the TEN remain
> So YOUR RELIGION sez. But SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE!
You "claim" to be a Christian - you go find it you lazy so&so!
> >Matt 19:17 ... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
> Let's see now. If you read the WHOLE passage you find that. . .
> a. Jesus was NOT YET CRUCIFIED and the penalty was not paid.
> b. The man was a Jew, under the WHOLE LAW.
That is correct!
> >John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
> "MY commandments," NOT "the TEN commandments." We DO follow the
> "commands" of Christ. HE did not tell Christians to worship on the
> Sabbath. Instead he told them it was okay to pull the ox out of the
> ditch, heal the sick, and do other good works on the Sabbath, that the
> Sabbath was made for them, not they for the Sabbath. THEN He was
> crucified and fulfilled the Law, taking them all out from UNDER the
> Law.
Who is Jesus? -
Jesus was the "God" who came to Sinai and gave Moses the Law
> NO PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613.
Here it is - the "handwriting" etc. is the 603 other laws
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
of the way, nailing it to his cross;
> >John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
> >he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved
> >of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
>
> Again (as in the previous passage) in the Greek it is literally "my
> commands," and refers to what Jesus gave the disciples (including us),
Again,
Who is Jesus? -
Jesus was the "God" who came to Sinai and gave Moses the Law
> and NOT the Law. It does NOT SAY "the TEN commandments anywhere." NO
> PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613. ONLY YOUR RELIGION
> does that.
The Bible does!
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
of the way, nailing it to his cross;
BTW, *I* do not have a religion, I follow God's Word
chri...@velocitus.net
>
>> >You say that the TEN is a part of the 613 - NOT SO!
>> >603 of them were nailed to the cross - the TEN remain
>> So YOUR RELIGION sez. But SHOW ME THE SCRIPTURE!
>
>You "claim" to be a Christian - you go find it you lazy so&so!
In other words, you CANNOT SHOW ME ANY SCRIPTURE TO BACK UP YOUR FALSE
CLAIM, so you call me names instead. So sad. A victim of your
religion's brain-washing, I suspect.
>
>> >Matt 19:17 ... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
>> Let's see now. If you read the WHOLE passage you find that. . .
>> a. Jesus was NOT YET CRUCIFIED and the penalty was not paid.
>> b. The man was a Jew, under the WHOLE LAW.
>
>That is correct!
>
>> >John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
>> "MY commandments," NOT "the TEN commandments." We DO follow the
>> "commands" of Christ. HE did not tell Christians to worship on the
>> Sabbath. Instead he told them it was okay to pull the ox out of the
>> ditch, heal the sick, and do other good works on the Sabbath, that the
>> Sabbath was made for them, not they for the Sabbath. THEN He was
>> crucified and fulfilled the Law, taking them all out from UNDER the
>> Law.
>
>Who is Jesus? -
>Jesus was the "God" who came to Sinai and gave Moses the Law
And when Jesus was crucified, He was the sacrificed LAMB who took us
OUT FROM UNDER THE TUTOR, THE LAW.
>
>> NO PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613.
>
>Here it is - the "handwriting" etc. is the 603 other laws
>Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
>against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
>of the way, nailing it to his cross;
AND EXACTLY WHERE does that say anything about separating the 10
commandments from the 613? It doesn't, of course. You have to
REDEFINE "the handwriting" to mean something YOU WANT IT TO MEAN,
rather than simply taking it as it says.
ALL of the commandments were written by hand. There was NO printing
press at that time.
>
>> >John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them,
>> >he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved
>> >of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
>>
>> Again (as in the previous passage) in the Greek it is literally "my
>> commands," and refers to what Jesus gave the disciples (including us),
>
>Again,
>Who is Jesus? -
>Jesus was the "God" who came to Sinai and gave Moses the Law
And AGAIN, when Jesus was crucified, He was the sacrificed LAMB who
took us OUT FROM UNDER THE TUTOR, THE LAW.
>
>> and NOT the Law. It does NOT SAY "the TEN commandments anywhere." NO
>> PLACE IN THE BIBLE separates the 10 from the 613. ONLY YOUR RELIGION
>> does that.
>
>The Bible does!
>Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was
>against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out
>of the way, nailing it to his cross;
>
>BTW, *I* do not have a religion, I follow God's Word
>
Your religion is one that tries to make us live under the Law, when
God's Word says we are NOT UNDER the Law any more.
Your religion lies to you.
in Christ Jesus,
Christian
Frank Trebor
Your religion lies to you.
You will suffer the wrath of God
<>< PLONK ><>
chri...@velocitus.net
you posted in alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic :
>
>
>
>You will suffer the wrath of God
>
><>< PLONK ><>
>
And God LOVES ME.
Sorry you don't like that.
Christian
Griz
>You say that the TEN is a part of the 613 - NOT SO!
>603 of them were nailed to the cross - the TEN remain
I belive you will have a hard time corroborating this assertion without
resorting to various constructs built by law-worshippers that tend to rely
heavily on speculation, supposition upon supposition, and assertions (like
the one above)based on very shakey (or even absent) ground.
There needs to be a clear path to this 'wisdom' you state above -- plus
adequate explanations for every single place were we are clearly told it is
by grace we are saved and not by works, that no man will be considered
righteous based on acts of law etc.
Otherwise, your assertion will have to remain in the arena of "Frank's
Speculations"
If this is as fundamental a point of salvation as you seem to be repeatedly
claiming all across Usenet, it should be clearly stated for seekers to find.
For that is God's nature.
(And actually, Jesus makes a point of bringing forth the wisdom of much of
the Decalogue into the New Covenant. Conspicuously absent from the laws He
brings forward however, is the one commandment that SDA's tend to hinge all
of their judgmental and condemnational attitudes upon. It is a commandment
who's basis is upon rest (Heb 4) -- yet this is the one point on which they
tend to generate the most unrest wherever they go.)
BTW, your cross-posting it getting tiresome.
It's almost as if you are intentionally stirring up as much trouble in as
many places as possible.
Jesus was able to target his teachings and responses to an incredible
degree. Please imitate Him.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Griz
>> Most of us Christians recognize that the Sabbath is part of *THE LAW,*
>> and that we Christians are NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW; it was a >>tutor for
>> us UNTIL JESUS CAME.
>So, if YOU are "NO LONGER UNDER THE LAW" as YOU claim,
>does that mean you free to BREAK all of God's LAW. Which is:-
<snip>
Frank,
As soon as you have to put your words in someone else's mouth in order to
make your point, you are proclaiming what a weak hand you are holding.
Re-read Romans and you will find that the words you are trying to put into
other's mouths, don't jive.
This is a point that the Apostle Paul covers quite well -- for those with
eyes to see and ears to hear.
Yours in Christ,
Griz
Melody456
>"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do
> any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid-
> servant, nor thy cattle nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days
> the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested
> the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it"
> Exodus 20:10,11
With all due respect, one of the reasons that many Adventists have a
hard time being taken seriously is that they can't get their finger away
from Exodus 20 when explaining about the Sabbath. It presents a picture
of not only legalism, but a harsh task-master of a God...
We don't need the "ten commandment" crutch to "prove" the Sabbath! When
Paul says "We are not under the Law, but under GRACE", I take that
seriously! He even clarifies that by saying, "Look guys, it doesn't
mean we go out and sin now..." A lot of people are afraid of the phrase
"not under the law" because they don't know what it means. They are
afraid of what to do with this kind of freedom. The GRACE bit means
that God can nail those commandments to the cross but by NATURE we're
expected to not steal, be adulterious, covetous.... etc... We are
grownups!
Here's how I define "Not under the Law"...
Nowadays I DON'T HAVE TO TELL my teenager to not play in the street!
But do I still expect her to not play in the street? Of course! I just
don't have to say "Thou shalt not play in the street!" anymore because
she gets it already! My toddler, on the other hand, needs to be told,
given safety restraints, "Don't go out there.. not safe!" That's the
way "the law" works for us as Christians today!
JESUS was a walking, living, breathing embodiment of "the ten
commandments". What day did Jesus keep? What day did He say he was
Lord of? The reason there's not a big issue in the NT over "which day
to keep" was because when Jesus walked this earth it was a no-brainer.
He even expanded on how to "keep the Sabbath". We are under the grace
and example of JESUS! I've seen many Adventists so afraid to get their
faces out of Exodus 20 thinking that there's no other way to prove the
character of God and how to follow Him.
Exodus 20 was given in a heavy-handed manner to the Israelites. It was
a giant clue-bat, if you will. Jesus came so we wouldn't need the
clue-bat. We need Him and His love and his KINDNESS draws us to follow
his character. As grownups we see the SENSE in His principles,
throughout all 66.
in Christ,
Melody
Pastor Dave
Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:58:05 GMT, Melody456
<Melo...@Godsgrace.com> screamed out:
While I think a little more expansion on what you are
saying would be appropriate, I commend your writing and
basic points that you brought forth (not that you need
my approval). Well put!
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
If your bible is falling apart, chances are your
life is staying together.
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Andrew
>
> Andrew wrote:
> >"The seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do
> > any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid-
> > servant, nor thy cattle nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days
> > the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested
> > the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it"
> > Exodus 20:10,11
>
> With all due respect, one of the reasons that many Adventists have a
> hard time being taken seriously is that they can't get their finger away
> from Exodus 20 when explaining about the Sabbath. It presents a picture
> of not only legalism, but a harsh task-master of a God...
Dear Melody, with all kindness to you... I don't think it proper to refer to Jesus
Christ as "a harsh task-master of a God." He is the One who carefully wrote
the law recorded in Exodus 20, which you say is "legalism." Jesus Himself did
not think it so but throughout His life, His ministry of love and all His teachings
showed that..God is love and that His law is to be understood in the framework
of love. In fact, the two great principles of this law are love to God and love to
man.
I believe that the revelation of the love of God through Christ Jesus causes us
to love Him in return... and that is the reason that we are powerfully motivated
to keep all of His commandments,which are demonstrated to be based on His
character and nature..which IS love. Isn't that what you are saying also? But I
oblviously believe you have a distorted understanding of Exodus 20.
>
> in Christ,
> Melody
Andrew
Melody456
In alt.religion.christian.adventist Andrew <andrew....@usa.net> wrote:
>Dear Melody, with all kindness to you... I don't think it proper to
>refer to Jesus Christ as "a harsh task-master of a God."
I humbly apologize for the mis-conception. It is indeed not what I
meant. *I* am not the one who is calling Him that.... I am saying that
the PICTURE of God that is represented is the task master. I for one
have no visualization of God like that. I am privileged and honored to
have been invited to be with Him... my Friend.
I don't dislike Exodus 20, not at all. But here is where I am coming
from ....When people head STRAIGHT for Exodus 20, without an accurate
picture of WHY God gave those commandments, as if it were the very first
time in the history of Creation that such concepts made sense, then yes,
that is the picture of God that I've seen many people understand. The
very fact that God had to command on a fiery mountain before Israel fell
victim to their own foolishness shows His mercy. They needed to be
told, and thus they got told, point blank, what was expected of them.
> He is the One
>who carefully wrote the law recorded in Exodus 20, which you say is
>"legalism."
Yes, and He also presented it in that way because His own people, could
not see exactly what was wrong in their life. I mean, imagine having to
be TOLD not to kill. He wrote those laws, not because it was the first
time such a concept had ever been thought of, but because they were
spiritual babies who just did not get it! A gentle invitation of "If
you love me...", like Jesus said later on should be our motivation,
simply did not cut it for the people of Israel. They were hard hearted
and had to have a fiery mountain and lots of visuals to get what God was
talking about. They were commands. Whereas God in the form of Jesus,
issued those same principles in the form of *invitations* and *examples*
later on.
>Jesus Himself did not think it so but throughout His life,
>His ministry of love and all His teachings showed that..God is love and
>that His law is to be understood in the framework of love. In fact,
>the two great principles of this law are love to God and love to man.
That's exactly what I am saying... We're not on opposite sides here. I
think you are reacting to having thought that I was calling God a harsh
task-master. I hope, now that I've clarified that, you can understand
that.
>I believe that the revelation of the love of God through Christ Jesus
>causes us to love Him in return... and that is the reason that we are
>powerfully motivated to keep all of His commandments,which are
>demonstrated to be based on His character and nature..which IS love.
>Isn't that what you are saying also? But I oblviously believe you have
>a distorted understanding of Exodus 20.
I am saying the same thing you are. And I hope I've made my
understanding of Exodus 20. I believe in and embrace the commandments
of God. The reason I believe in them is because Exodus 20 is not the
only place in the Bible that those principles are outlined and described
and supported. The Pharisees in the Bible understood Exodus 20 pretty
well. They understood it so well they were even trying to "enlighten"
the Author of the Bible about it after being horrified when He healed
and picked grain to eat on the Sabbath. Jesus showed them a deeper
meaning of the "why". He even defined rest and work more clearly,
through His loving example. The whole entire Bible supports Exodus 20,
but uses various educational methods! Almost every phrase in the Bible
falls under the heading of one or another of those commandments, or is
an object lesson thereof.
For instance, sometimes, as a parent, I have to say "because I said so",
because an explanation would only serve to confuse them further. Once
they get older and more mature and discerning, and they ask why, I can
explain a bit and have them go "ahhh I get it now". As adults,
hopefully they'll have the same retrospective as me, and be thankful
that their parents gave them this free advice.
Exodus 20 was quite a bit of "because I said so". To give them *time*
to see God's mercy and love. I understood the Sanctified seventh day
long before I reached Exodus 20... In the first pages of Genesis God
blessed the Seventh day and Sanctified it long before there were any
religious divisions. From the moment man took his first breaths, God
invited us to enter in to His rest. The rest that He made FOR MAN. It's
a privilege, a blessing, an invitation, not a legal matter.
However, I don't need to keep my magnifying glass on Exodus 20 to verify
the natural character of God.... Throughout the whole New Testament I
can see the same character of God. We have a new covenant with God.
His law written on our HEARTS. We once again have the privilege and
blessing, and when I see the phrase "Not under the Law", I agree with
that. I am not under the law. I am under his privilege and blessing.
Because I love God I openly accept his invitation to draw near to the
heart of Him who made the earth, sea and the fountains of waters.
It's actually a *privilege* for me to be invited, freely, to imitate his
character. This is why my heart breaks when I see so many people reject
that when it's presented to them as a "do or die" model. I am not
saying that is what you are doing... but I do see it often being
presented in that fashion in the SDA doctrinal studies and seminars.
In Christ,
Melody
John McComb
> Dear Melody, with all kindness to you... I don't think it proper to refer to Jesus
> Christ as "a harsh task-master of a God." He is the One who carefully wrote
> the law recorded in Exodus 20, which you say is "legalism." Jesus Himself did
> not think it so but throughout His life, His ministry of love and all His teachings
> showed that..God is love and that His law is to be understood in the framework
> of love. In fact, the two great principles of this law are love to God and love to
> man.
This actually might depend on the perception of the hearer.
What Jesus did is point to the path and tell us that this
is where we must be. In doing so he raised the bar as high
as it would go. For some, looking from beyond that path,
the traversal might seem a very painful thing. To them,
Jesus might be called a very 'hard taskmaster' indeed. However,
it is 'our' error that makes that traversal such a difficult
thing. So it all depends on your point of view.
Yours in Christ
John
Cindy
"bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@thepits.com> wrote in message
news:RijRc.321116$%t6.1...@roc.nntpserver.com...
>
> "Cindy" <cyn...@localline.com> wrote in message
> news:2nllelF...@uni-berlin.de...
> >
> > "bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> > news:cq8Rc.310041$%t6.5...@roc.nntpserver.com...> > > news:2nkf0nF...@uni-berlin.de...
> > > >
> > > > "bulldogsbutt" <bulldo...@verizon.net> wrote
> > > > in message news:HwYQc.292534$%t6.1...@roc.nntpserver.com...
> > > > >
> > > > > "Andrew" wrote:
> > > > > > If we would just follow the example of Christ who is the
Lord
> > of the
> > > Sabbath,
> > > > > > we would be doing the right thing in this area. He is
also
> > the one
> > > who will be
> > > > > > our Judge. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath
> > committed all
> > > judgment
> > > > > > unto the Son" John 5:22. Jesus kept holy the Sabbath
> > throughout his
> > > life by
> > > > > > attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good
to
> > those in
> > > need.
> > > > >
do:
> > Believe in
> > > the
> > > > > one he has sent."
> > > >
> > > > "Here's how we can be sure that we know God in the
right
> > way:
> > > > Keep his commandments. If someone claims,"I know
him
> > well!"
> > > > but doesn't keep his commandments, he's obviously a
> > liar. His
> > > > life doesn't match his words." 1 John
2:3,4
> > >
> > > The commandments that John was citing was for Christians to love
one
> > another
> > > as Christ loved us, not the Ten commandments and also as John
later
> > defined
> > > in 1 John 3:23 "This is His commandment, that we believe in the
name
> > of His
> > > Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded
us.."
> > I don't
> > > think you can find a place in John's writings where he uses
'entole'
> > which
> > > is translated as or to refer to OT law or commandments. When
John
> > does make
> > > reference to OT law he uses 'nomos' which is translated as
"law."
> >
> > Well unless you believe John and Paul taught opposing doctrines
> > regarding this, which I do not believe you do, then plainly it is
fact
> > that in loving our neighbour we are to keep the part of the ten
> > commandments regarding them. Paul flat out bluntly states this:
> >
> > Rom 13:8-9 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he
that
> > loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not
commit
> > adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt
not
> > bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any
other
> > commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely,
Thou
> > shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
> >
> > Love your neighbour is a condensed version of those commandments.
That
> > is what Paul was inspired by God to write and explain, and as he
> > believed, as do I, and you do not.
>
> Love your neighbor includes the some of the Ten Commandments, but it
goes
> far beyond that. Paul is not saying that love your neighbor is
limited to
> the decalogue.
Why do you limit the decalogue? The Lord never did.
> >
>
> > What commandments are briefly comprehended in this saying Larry?
> > Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God
with
> > all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
> > Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
>
> Far more than what you believe it is. It includes commands like
pray
> without ceasing; in everything give thanks; believe in the name of
His Son,
> Jesus Christ; rejoice always; do not quench the Spirit; commit your
way to
> the Lord; trust in the Lord; Be anxious for nothing, but in
everything by
> prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made
known to
> God...
> You get the idea, it goes far beyond the limits of the decalogue.
>
Actually those things are included in the first commandments, and just
a explanation of how to serve and obey God. They are not in addition
to the decalogue, they are part of the decalogue.
One cannot understand or obey the spirit of the law if you don't first
understand the letter of the law. It is impossible to keep the spirit
of the law while transgressing the commandments.
> >
> >
> > Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
> > neighbour as thyself.
>
> Far more than what you believe it is. It includes commands like;
love your
> enemies; do good to those who hate you; lend, expecting nothing in
return;
> be merciful, just as your Father is merciful; do not judge; do not
condemn;
> bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you; ive to
everyone
> who asks of you; treat others the same way you want them to treat
you....
> You get the idea, it goes far beyond the limits of the decalogue.
>
I get the idea that you don't understand the God's law is not
limitted, nor incomplete or imperfect, and that you find God's law
faulty. The reality is that what was once written on stone is now
written on the fleshly tables of our heart, and the Holy Spirit is
given to them who obey and leads to all truth as we are sanctified,
made holy.
Only those who are at enmity with the law of God seek to limit it and
say it's not Good enough, those who have it written in their hearts
never do so.
You don't like Ellen White we both know, and yet she put it so simply:
Christ's sermon upon the mount was designed to enter into our
everyday life. The commandments are so broad that they take hold of
even our thoughts. But how few take heed to the words of our Saviour!
Consequently we shall have objections to meet. Some will claim that
they are wholly led by the Spirit, and consequently they have not much
use for the law of God or any portion of God's Word. Those who claim
great light and are not sanctified through the truth are dangerous
people, but they can be easily tested. "To the law and to the
testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because
there is no light in them." Isa. 8:20. We want to be in that condition
that we can discern between light and darkness. {3MR 101.1}
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness; that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly
furnished unto all good works." Every relation in life, every position
of responsibility, every affection and habit, every emotion of the
mind, is to be brought to the great standard of righteousness, the
commandments of God, which are exceeding broad. We must have
simplicity of heart that we may understand, and willingness of mind to
practise, all the teachings of God's word. {YI, September 20, 1894
par. 2}
The commandments of God are exceeding broad, and the Lord is not
pleased to have His children disorderly, to have their lives marred by
defects and their religious experience crippled, their growth in grace
dwarfed, because they persist in cherishing hereditary and cultivated
deficiencies in wrong habits that will be imitated by others and thus
be perpetuated. If the grace of Christ cannot remedy these defects,
what then constitutes transformation of character? {TMK 157.4}
> > Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the
> > prophets.
> >
>
> Correct, ALL of the Law and the prophets, which means all of the
various and
> sundry commands that are in the OT. Do you obey ALL of the Law? You
and I
> both know that you don't. You choose certain laws that you deem as
> applicable to today and ignore others as being archaic and
ceremonial. You
> follow the laws of clean and unclean foods, but do you follow the
rest of
> the laws of clean and unclean?
Jesus did not die to change the nutritional value of food. Our Creator
even before Moses day
gave man a diet in the garden of Eden, before meat had to be added to
that diet,because of a barren earth, the clean animals marched onto
Noah's ark seven pairs each, and just one pair of the unclean. Clean
and unclean meats did not originate in the Mosaic law.
And many of those laws you refer to had to do with disease, and were
simply what is known today as isolation and disease control, those
same principles are still practiced by the CDC and those in medical
professions today to prevent plague and epidemics. The people were
checked for symptoms, they were separated from the rest while ill, or
possibly contageous. If they had come in contact with something or
somebody which may have been a carrier of disease or a parasite, they
had to cleanse themselves and wash their clothes, or even burn them,
sometimes this also meant they had to be outside of the camp until it
was determined they were healthy and not going to be a typhoid Mary.
The amount of time spent outside the camp correlates to the same
amount of time that we know today to be the the incubation of a
disease or the amount of time one is contagious.
Knowing the reasoning and principles behind those laws, clears up a
bunch of confusion.
Should we disregard health principles and common sense and be
unhealthy because Jesus died for our sins?
The rest of the unclean and clean laws had to do with sanctification
and being Holy in regard to things explained in the life of Christ...
> You observe the Sabbath command, but do you
> observe Passover or the feast of tabernacles? Again, you make a
choice
> based on what you wish to follow, not based on what is commanded in
ALL the
> law and the prophets.
The very scriptures define what to follow, and why, and when that is
no longer needed, even so the Apostles taught in the New testament.
Why keep Passover, or the feast of tabernacles anymore? What did they
point forward to?
Do we have the real thing now?
The problem here is that you don't seem to understand that Jesus
created the Seventh-day Sabbath, and he sanctified it and made it
Holy. Even had Moses never existed, or had there never been a need for
Jesus to command us to Remember it from Sinai, the Sabbath would still
exist. It does exist every week, and has from Creation since Jesus
made it for man. What do you do with something The Lord creates and
makes holy and gives to you? I say it makes sense to keep it Holy.
Those who loved God and served only him never needed a command in
order to do so, they did so out of a heart of gratitude and love.
Those who forgot their Creator and did not keep it holy , were given
the fourth commandment which points out the reason for it, and
commanded to remember it because sin is transgression of the law.
And the wages of sin is death.
Only those who serve the Lord out of love and loyalty will be in his
kingdom.
~ Cindy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Jesus at another time cited two other commandments, love the
> > Lord your
> > > God
> > > > > with all your being, and love your neighbor as yourself.
When
> > you have
> > > > > accomplished these, then come back and tell me about the
> > Sabbath.
> > > >
> > > > "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart,
> > with all
> > > your
> > > > soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.'
This
> > is the
> > > first com-
> > > > mandment. And the second, like it, is this: " You shall
love
> > your
> > > neighbor
> > > > as yourself. 'There is no other commandment greater than
> > these." Mk
> > > 12
> > > >
> > > > One cannot love the LORD their God with all their heart, soul,
> > mind and
> > > strength
> > > > and at the same time have other Gods before them, bow down
before
> > idols,
> > > take
> > > > His name in vain, or desecrate the Sabbath day.
> > > >
> > > Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
> > > The point is Andrew, we cannot on this Earth obey the greatest
> > commandment
> > > or the second Greatest commandment for more than a few minutes.
No
> > matter
> > > how good we think we are or how hard we try, human selfishness
> > always
> > > arises. When selfishness arises, then when sefishness arises
even
> > in the
> > > most minor way we have broken the two greatest commanments. In
> > otherwords,
> > > when you have totally conquered selfishness in all forms then
come
> > back and
> > > tell me about the Sabbath. Jesus said it perfectly in Mt 7:1-5
"Do
> > not
> > > judge so that you will not be judged.2 For in the way you judge,
you
> > will be
> > > judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to
> > you.3 Why do
> > > you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not
> > notice the
> > > log that is in your own eye?4 Or how can you say to your
brother,
> > 'Let me
> > > take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your
own
> > eye?5
> > > You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then
you
> > will see
> > > clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
> > > Quite frankly we all have enough logs in our eyes that we could
> > collectively
> > > reforest the entire planet.
> > >
> > > BDB
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
Kaspa
Andrew
"John Weatherly" <joh...@qwest.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 09:40:57 -0700, "Andrew" wrote:
> >>
> >> "Andrew" wrote:
> >> > If we would just follow the example of Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath,
> >> > we would be doing the right thing in this area. He is also the one who will be
> >> > our Judge. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment
> >> > unto the Son" John 5:22. Jesus kept holy the Sabbath throughout his life by
> >> > attending public worship on the seventh day and doing good to those in need.
> >>
>
> noted that He not only allowed the disciples to pick grain to eat on a
> Sabbath, but that He and they actually ate the grain WITHOUT WASHING
> THEIR HANDS!!!!
>
> And every time the Pharisees pointed out to Jesus that He was breaking
> the Sabbath, HE DID NOT DENY IT.
It was on that basis that they declared Him "a sinner."
But Jesus said..
"I have KEPT my Father's commandments" John 15:10
> His comments one day were to the effect that, "I am the Lord (God,
> the Master) of Sabbath.... the Sabbath is NOT the Master of God."
>
> IOW, He decides/dictates what is appropriate on Sabbath;
You are absolutely correct!!!! That's why I stated, If we would just follow the
example of Christ who is the Lord of the Sabbath, we would be doing the right
thing in this area. He is also the one who will be our Judge. Jesus kept holy the
Sabbath throughout his life by attending public worship on the seventh day and
doing good to those in need.
Thank you, John. Amen!
Andrew
"If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on MY HOLY DAY,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and THE LORD'S HOLY DAY honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,
Then you will find your joy in the LORD ,
and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob."
The mouth of the LORD has spoken."
Isaiah 58:13-14 NIV
" "The mouth of the LORD has spoken." "
Zerubbabel
"John Weatherly" <joh...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:gd1li0h8ikm43kchl...@4ax.com...
> Jesus broke the Sabbath on a regular basis. One day the Pharisees
> noted that He not only allowed the disciples to pick grain to eat on a
> Sabbath, but that He and they actually ate the grain WITHOUT WASHING
> THEIR HANDS!!!!
> And every time the Pharisees pointed out to Jesus that He was breaking
> the Sabbath, HE DID NOT DENY IT.
>
Excuse me, but there is a difference between breaking the Sabbath and
breaking man made tradition.
Wher in the Law is the commandment : 'Thou shalt not eat with unwashed
hands'?
Jesus claims He kept the Commandments:
NAS John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just
as I have
kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.
> And as of the day He began His earthly ministry, the laws of Moses,
> those dead weights around the necks of the Jews, were null.
The Law is ineffective as a way to righteousness, but does have the power to
reveal sin, which is still its purpose.
The Law has not been nullified as a revelation of the justice and will of
God.
In fact the Law is still very much in effect even though the portions that
were but shadows of Christ have been obsoleted by His coming and sacrifice.
Love the Lord with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself were
quoted by Jesus from the Mosaic Law. Are these also null?
>
> The reason He went to Temple every Sabbath to preach was because
> SABBATH WAS WHEN THE MAJORITY OF THOSE WHOM HE CAME TO
> PREACH TO WERE IN THE TEMPLE. Monday through Sunday, we see Him
> preaching ALL OVER THE PLACE.
>
> And at NO place that is recorded did He demand that Christians OR Jews
> continue to observe Sabbath.
Agreed, not all the Old Testament Law is in effect in the New Covenant.
However there still remains a SABBATH REST for th ePeople of God. The O.C.
Sabbath was merely a foreshadow of the true rest from our own works that
came with Christ.
> Does God have the authority to break His laws? Of COURSE! God's laws
> were not given to God. God gave the law to MAN. The laws God gave MAN
> DO NOT APPLY TO GOD. One such law that God has broken REPEATEDLY was
> the law against killing. "You shall not kill."
>
You do not understand the nature nor source of the Law. The Law reflects
the rigteousness of God and reveals our falling short of His holiness.
God does not lie
God does not commit murder.
God does not steal.
God loves His neighbor as Himself (for God so loved .. He gave His only
Son...)
Men die because of their sin and for no other reason.
> Then review the entire Old Testament to see how many times God has
> killed humans, and how many times He has DIRECTED the Jews to
> murder/execute/wipe out entire cultures, like the Canaanites, who were
> the previous occupants of the land we now call Israel.
Man was warned in the Garden that the wages of sin is death. Do you indict
God for fulfilling His word?
>
> Not only is all food now clean, but the other Old Testament laws are
> now cancelled.
Has thou shalt not murder been cancelled?
NAS 1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know
that no
murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
The saints no longer have need of the Law written on stone, for God has
written it upon their hearts.
Those who show by their deeds they are lawless, have not been saved, not
matter how much they cry: THE GRACE OF CHRIST.
Paul confronted the antinomians as well as the Judaizers.
Rico
> > Correct, ALL of the Law and the prophets, which means all of the
> various and
> > sundry commands that are in the OT. Do you obey ALL of the Law? You
> and I
> > both know that you don't. You choose certain laws that you deem as
> > applicable to today and ignore others as being archaic and
> ceremonial. You
> > follow the laws of clean and unclean foods, but do you follow the
> rest of
> > the laws of clean and unclean?
>
> Jesus did not die to change the nutritional value of food. Our Creator
> even before Moses day
> gave man a diet in the garden of Eden, before meat had to be added to
> that diet,because of a barren earth, the clean animals marched onto
> Noah's ark seven pairs each, and just one pair of the unclean. Clean
> and unclean meats did not originate in the Mosaic law.
>
You are correct in saying that Jesus death did not change the nutritional
values of foods, however you are incorrect in your assumtion that the
cleanliness or uncleanliness of meats did not orginiate in the Mosaic law.
If you read Genisis chapter 9 you will see that all animals were given to
Noah and his family (of which were are part of) to eat as meat. It is only
to the Israelites that certain meats were forbiden, those meats are not
clean meat they are KOSHER. Kosher meats are from clean animals are prepared
in a different way to the way most commercial butchers prepare the same
meats. Even Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or any of their descendants were given
these laws until after the crossing of the Red Sea. Can I suggest to Cindy
that she read Romans 12, paying particular attention to verses 2 and 3.
>
>
> > You observe the Sabbath command, but do you
> > observe Passover or the feast of tabernacles? Again, you make a
> choice
> > based on what you wish to follow, not based on what is commanded in
> ALL the
> > law and the prophets.
>
> The very scriptures define what to follow, and why, and when that is
> no longer needed, even so the Apostles taught in the New testament.
> Why keep Passover, or the feast of tabernacles anymore? What did they
> point forward to?
> Do we have the real thing now?
>
> The problem here is that you don't seem to understand that Jesus
> created the Seventh-day Sabbath, and he sanctified it and made it
> Holy. Even had Moses never existed, or had there never been a need for
> Jesus to command us to Remember it from Sinai, the Sabbath would still
> exist. It does exist every week, and has from Creation since Jesus
> made it for man. What do you do with something The Lord creates and
> makes holy and gives to you? I say it makes sense to keep it Holy.
> Those who loved God and served only him never needed a command in
> order to do so, they did so out of a heart of gratitude and love.
> Those who forgot their Creator and did not keep it holy , were given
> the fourth commandment which points out the reason for it, and
> commanded to remember it because sin is transgression of the law.
>
Jesus broke the sabbath when he allowed the disciples to pick grains of
wheat because they were hungry. If Moses hadn't exsisted, then you would
either be Jewish and still a slave in Egypt (and not have computer access to
read this message), or you would be a pagan (as your ancestors from 3000
years ago were) and not know these truths, thus making this thread non
existant. The fourth commandment does not say anything about which day one
should go to church. A Messainic muslim is entitled to attend friday
prayers, celebrate Ramadan and make the Hajj pilgrimage; in the same way
that a Messianic Jew is entitled to celebrate Purim, the feast of the
tabernacles.
Passover in a secular sense would be the equivelant of celebrating the 4th
of July in the US or January 26 in Australia. The Passover celebrations
were not (and probably still not) a celebration of things to come, they are
a celebration of the Israelites original Independance Day
ruth rush
Deut.13:1(Deut.12:32) says, "Everything I am commanding you, you are
to take care to do. Do not add to it or subtract from it."
I say that if Yeshua disobeyed any of the Law, He was a sinner and not
a pure sacrifice. He did not disobey any Law.
Ruth
Andrew
"ruth rush" wrote:
> "Andrew" wrote:
Some today side with the Pharisees against Christ and argue that Jesus
actually broke the holy law of God. But we need not be deceived, for
He plainly stated at the end of His ministry...
"I have KEPT my Father's commandments"
~ Jesus ~
Joe Cipriani
> > noted that He not only allowed the disciples to pick grain to eat on a
> > Sabbath, but that He and they actually ate the grain WITHOUT WASHING
> > THEIR HANDS!!!!
First and foremost I respectfully disagree with you that our Lord
broke the Sabbath. Christ's love of the Father is so great, that even
when He was tempted as a man, it was impossible for Him to break even
the smallest of God's commands on what the Law and prophets required.
What Christ did is precisely what the Father asks all of us to do - to
not do our own pleasure. It is to be a day that we "rest" in him. The
idea that Christ broke the Sabbath thus disobeying the Father is
precisely what the evil one wants everyone to believe for the evil one
above all things is a liar.
What Christ did was to violate the "hand written" codes of Sabbath
keeping that the Pharisees had created. The Pharisees had made the
Sabbath a burden - focusing on what we should not do - rather than
what we should do. For example -the Pharisees had a "law" that a man
should not travel to far from their property. To the Pharisees, this
was considered work on the Sabbath. This is the type of "legalism"
that Christ spoke out against when he asked is it permitted to do good
on the Sabbath.
And it is precisely what we should be doing that we should focus on.
If you use the scriptures as Peter and Paul urge - for instruction in
righteousness - you learn that the Sabbath among other things is time
for prayer, worship, singing hymns and songs of praise, study of the
scriptures, fellowship, to visit those who are bound to their homes in
illness or age, to help the destitute - to spend time with God and to
do good on the Sabbath. This is the intent of the Law.
Consider how much stronger the faith of those who profess Christ as
their savior would be if they kept the Sabbath as Christ taught.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Examples of the Modern World:
The vast majority of Christians do not read the Bible even once a
week. Yet these same people spend on average 25 hours a week watching
TV.
Professed Christians can find plenty of time to do their own pleasure,
but no time for God. Yet these same professed Christians call those
that do keep the Sabbath – legalists!
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Sabbath Challenge – for those who think we who keep the Sabbath are
legalists:
Sabbath Challenge 1:
On Sabbath, fellowship with some friends. Rent a biblical movie. For
example: The Ten Commandments, Esther, or the Gospel of John. Watch it
through once then compare the film to the scriptures to see how
closely it follows scripture. (Note: You just might be amazed at how
much "artistic freedom" was taken in the Ten Commandments (Charlton
Heston)).
Sabbath Challenge 2:
On Sabbath, fellowship with some friends. Read some scripture and
discuss what the message is. If you are a Christian who believes the
Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament is for the
Gentiles, then perhaps reading some Old Testament passages to see how
God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
Sabbath Challenge 3:
Visit someone who is shut in. Be it someone who is ill. Visit a
nursing home. Maybe take a prepare meal to the local homeless shelter
or Ronald McDonald's house. Whatever – just do something for someone
else rather than focus on you.
God asks us to test Him – so test Him. See if after doing these three
things (or even one) that God has not blessed you in some way. And
after having received the blessing – ask if it is permitted to good on
the Sabbath – ask if reading the word of God is good - ask if keeping
the Sabbath is good – ask yourself is obedience being legalistic. Test
this – Test God to see that He keeps His promises – seek me and yea
shall find me!
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Examples of Christ keeping the Sabbath – not abolishing it:
In His death was obedient. He died before sundown on Friday – He was
resurrected on Sunday – He rested in the belly of the earth as the
"sign of Jonah" on the Sabbath.
In His prophecy of what was to come he was obedient. In the Olive
Discourse when He spoke of the days to come, one of the days He spoke
of was the coming destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD –
just as the Father through Daniel had told us it would – just as
Christ said it would. And history teaches us that the faithful in
Christ were spared the destruction when Rome attacked in 66AD and then
suddenly when victory was in their grasp, they withdrew and did not
return until 70AD. This allowed those faithful in Christ to escape to
the hills – just as He said. And he taught them – pray that it does
not come in winter or the Sabbath – and for their faithfulness this is
exactly what happened. If Christ knew of the pending destruction of
Jerusalem, if the Sabbath was to change do you not think He would have
known this too? And as a result, He would never had mentioned the
Sabbath.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Christ clearly states – He did not come to abolish the Law but to
fulfill it.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Just a couple of examples of Christ's obedience:
Consider Psalm's 22 - My God, My God - Why have you forsaken me? -- Is
this not precisely what He said on the cross? -- This is His level of
obedience to our loving Father.
Consider the healing of the lepers - He required them to go to the
temple and offer sacrifices as the Law requires. WHY? He knew that
after His death and resurrection, the laws of sacrifice would be done
away with just as the Father told Isaiah. But He also knew the
conditions that the Father had set on abolishing the sacrificial laws
had not yet been fulfilled. -- This is His level of obedience to our
loving Father.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Legalism:
When the content of the law becomes more important than the intent of
the law.
The intent of the Sabbath is to rest in God. When we focus on what we
should not do rather than on what we should do – we have broken the
intent of the Sabbath and thus have broken the commandment.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
Revelations 14:12
Here is the patience of saints; here are those who keep the
commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
-- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
God forgives –
but He does not change nor does He compromise…
May God bless those who hear the voice of the Good Shepard and follow
and have mercy on those who do not hear…
Joe
Donna
Thank you Joe.
"Joe Cipriani" <Subscri...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:b24566be.04082...@posting.google.com...
> that do keep the Sabbath - legalists!
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Sabbath Challenge - for those who think we who keep the Sabbath are
> legalists:
>
> Sabbath Challenge 1:
> On Sabbath, fellowship with some friends. Rent a biblical movie. For
> example: The Ten Commandments, Esther, or the Gospel of John. Watch it
> through once then compare the film to the scriptures to see how
> closely it follows scripture. (Note: You just might be amazed at how
> much "artistic freedom" was taken in the Ten Commandments (Charlton
> Heston)).
>
> Sabbath Challenge 2:
> On Sabbath, fellowship with some friends. Read some scripture and
> discuss what the message is. If you are a Christian who believes the
> Old Testament is for the Jews and the New Testament is for the
> Gentiles, then perhaps reading some Old Testament passages to see how
> God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.
>
> Sabbath Challenge 3:
> Visit someone who is shut in. Be it someone who is ill. Visit a
> nursing home. Maybe take a prepare meal to the local homeless shelter
> or Ronald McDonald's house. Whatever - just do something for someone
> else rather than focus on you.
>
> God asks us to test Him - so test Him. See if after doing these three
> things (or even one) that God has not blessed you in some way. And
> after having received the blessing - ask if it is permitted to good on
> the Sabbath - ask if reading the word of God is good - ask if keeping
> the Sabbath is good - ask yourself is obedience being legalistic. Test
> this - Test God to see that He keeps His promises - seek me and yea
> shall find me!
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Examples of Christ keeping the Sabbath - not abolishing it:
>
> In His death was obedient. He died before sundown on Friday - He was
> resurrected on Sunday - He rested in the belly of the earth as the
> "sign of Jonah" on the Sabbath.
>
> In His prophecy of what was to come he was obedient. In the Olive
> Discourse when He spoke of the days to come, one of the days He spoke
> of was the coming destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70AD -
> just as the Father through Daniel had told us it would - just as
> Christ said it would. And history teaches us that the faithful in
> Christ were spared the destruction when Rome attacked in 66AD and then
> suddenly when victory was in their grasp, they withdrew and did not
> return until 70AD. This allowed those faithful in Christ to escape to
> the hills - just as He said. And he taught them - pray that it does
> not come in winter or the Sabbath - and for their faithfulness this is
> exactly what happened. If Christ knew of the pending destruction of
> Jerusalem, if the Sabbath was to change do you not think He would have
> known this too? And as a result, He would never had mentioned the
> Sabbath.
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Christ clearly states - He did not come to abolish the Law but to
> fulfill it.
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Just a couple of examples of Christ's obedience:
>
> Consider Psalm's 22 - My God, My God - Why have you forsaken me? -- Is
> this not precisely what He said on the cross? -- This is His level of
> obedience to our loving Father.
>
> Consider the healing of the lepers - He required them to go to the
> temple and offer sacrifices as the Law requires. WHY? He knew that
> after His death and resurrection, the laws of sacrifice would be done
> away with just as the Father told Isaiah. But He also knew the
> conditions that the Father had set on abolishing the sacrificial laws
> had not yet been fulfilled. -- This is His level of obedience to our
> loving Father.
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Legalism:
>
> When the content of the law becomes more important than the intent of
> the law.
>
> The intent of the Sabbath is to rest in God. When we focus on what we
> should not do rather than on what we should do - we have broken the
> intent of the Sabbath and thus have broken the commandment.
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
> Revelations 14:12
>
> Here is the patience of saints; here are those who keep the
> commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
>
> - - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -- -
> -- - -- - -- - -- - -- - -
>
>
> God forgives -
>
> but He does not change nor does He compromise.
>
>
> May God bless those who hear the voice of the Good Shepard and follow
> and have mercy on those who do not hear.
>
> Joe
gary_zw
the Sabbath but he never broke the Sabbath that he Himself made for
man..
(1 John 3:4 KJV) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the
law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
In saying Jesus broke the Sabbath you are saying Jesus is a sinner,
anyone who say Jesus broke the Sabbath is spreading a "doctrine of
devils" and Satanic lies.
(Mark 2:27 KJV) "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man,
and not man for the sabbath:"
The Sabbath was made for man and not the Jews only! Jesus said so
Amen!!
Andrew
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote
in message news:ao9qi01k1o8g0736n...@4ax.com...
>
> ...as I read my Bible, I find not ONE passage in which Christ taught Sabbath worship.
He taught it by living it!...by attending public worship every
Sabbath (Lk4:16), and doing good to those in need. That's
how He taught it. Conversely,He never mentioned the word
Sunday! So, the supposed change was never authorized by
Him.
> And I DO find at least two times in the New Testament where Sunday
> worship was BLESSED by God.
>
> Find them and get back to me.
>
> Hint. John and Acts.
The purpose for the John passage assembly, was not to celebrate
a resurrection (they didn't even believe in it at that point), but "for
fear of the Jews." So how do you figure it was 'blessed by God"?
>
> jw
Those who wish to follow Jesus will in His strength..break
from the traditions contrary to the commandments of God.
Melody456
> Worship any day you choose, but don't call Sunday worship
> "unscriptural."
Worship of God and worship services were held quite often in the book of
Acts, including Sundays.
The Sabbath represents something entirely different, and it was also still
recognized (Acts 13) by the apostles.
I don't see the Sabbath as "a commandment" but rather as a gift, and a
choice. It becomes a yoke around the neck if it gets into discussions of
"we don't have to do this one anymore" "oh yes we do" and back and forths.
The beauty and what the Sabbath really represents gets lost in all of this.
The Sabbath was created and sanctified made holy and therefore isn't
interchangeable whenever some other event comes along on another day.
Christ being raised on the Sunday and people holding worship services on a
Sunday does not turn it into the Sabbath. God is praised just as much
whether one goes to church on a Sabbath or on a Sunday. The day we choose
to regularly meet at church does not make it the Sabbath either. My
reasons for honoring the Sabbath have nothing to do with the events at Mt.
Sinai. The Lord looks at our hearts, and nothing I do, or anyone else
does, can change the meaning of the Sabbath. What I do on the Sabbath does
not make or break it either. I don't "keep the Sabbath". It's not MY job.
It's in my *heart* (new covenant - understood by the prophet Jeremiah
31:33) to *remember* it though.
The Sabbath and Sunday are two different things, just like my birthday and
wedding day are two different days. I could get married on a certain day,
but I'd look a bit silly saying, "Oh, can we celebrate my BIRTHDAY on this
day too?"
The Lord judges our spiritual maturity by what is motivated by our hearts
and by our love for him, not our blind obedience to something we think we
"have to do". We are not under the law, but under grace. We are spiritual
grown ups and God's character and law are in our hearts, where he wanted
them to be. It's not my place to judge someone else by what day they
"keep". It's my job to follow the two great commandments.
in Christ,
Melody
Donna
mention a few things here. First of all if we open God's Word trying to find
scripture to back up what we already believe we cannot say we are seeking
the truth. If we are to really seek the truth in God's word we must put
aside all of our preconceived ideas and things we have been taught by man
and come to His word with an open heart and a yearning to learn the truth,
asking God's guidance through His Holy Spirit.
Acts 20 is a prime example. Trying to make it say what you already believe
is easily done, but it is not the truth because it entails deleting, adding
to or distortion and we are sternly warned about doing that. No where are we
told it was a Sunday morning or that Paul preached all day. What does it
really say?
Verse 7& 8 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciple came
together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the
morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. And there were many lights
in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together."
The disciples came together to break bread (share food) and Paul preached
unto them until midnight. We know it is at night, many lights were on, and
it had to have been a Saturday night because the first day of the week,
Sunday, begins at sundown and Paul continued his speech until midnight. He
was ready to leave on the morrow, in the morning, which would have been
Sunday morning and verse eleven also confirms that he did leave in the
morning. Paul had preached until midnight is firmly stated. But in verse
eleven we also see that talking had gone on even till break of day and Paul
left.
Now we can also ask ourselves these questions. Who created all and gave the
first Sabbath day, also blessing and making it a holy day? Who gave us the
10 commandments where we are told to "Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it
holy"? Who told us that He never changes and that He is the same yesterday,
today and forever? The only answer is Jesus.
Any changes ever made have been done by man. Are we going to follow God or
man?
In our Lord Jesus Christ's service,
Donna
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:et9qi05v9k03kv90v...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> You quote VERY selectively.
>
>
> JN 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark,
> Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been
> removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and
> the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken
> the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
>
> JN 20:3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4
> Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the
> tomb first. 5 He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying
> there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter, who was behind him,
> arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying
> there, 7 as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head.
> The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8 Finally
> the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside.
> He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture
> that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
>
> JN 20:10 Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11 but Mary
> stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into
> the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had
> been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
>
> JN 20:13 They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"
> "They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where
> they have put him." 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus
> standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
>
> JN 20:15 "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are
> looking for?"
> Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried
> him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."
>
> JN 20:16 Jesus said to her, "Mary."
> She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which
> means Teacher).
>
> JN 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet
> returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, `I am
> returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "
>
> JN 20:18 Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I
> have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things
> to her.
>
> ---> JN 20:19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when
> the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the
> Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"
> 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The
> disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. <----
>
> -----
> the first recorded Sunday Christian church service.
> And it was BLESSED by the appearance of Christ, Himself. Did He REBUKE
> them for worshipping on Sunday?
>
> He did not!
> --------
>
>
> JN 20:21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has
> sent me, I am sending you." 22 And with that he breathed on them and
> said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone his sins,
> they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
>
> JN 20:24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not
> with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told
> him, "We have seen the Lord!"
> But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and
> put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I
> will not believe it."
>
> ---> JN 20:26 "A week later his disciples were in the house again,
> and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and
> stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to
> Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and
> put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
>
> ---
> v 26, "A week later..." IOW, the following Sunday, the disciples were
> holding Sunday Christian services AGAIN...
> Did He come and REBUKE them? He did not! He came and BLESSED them
> during a Sunday Christian church service.
> ---
> Why don't you ever quote the Sunday Church service passages? To quote
> SO selectively is to LIE.
> ---
> This was the FAMOUS Sunday Christian worship service where we see
> Thomas's fateful encounter, where he examines the wounds.
> How could you forget THAT Sunday Church service?
> It must be deliberate!
>
> ----
>
> JN 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
>
> JN 20:29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have
> believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
>
> ----
>
> AC 2:1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one
> place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from
> heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw
> what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on
> each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began
> to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.
>
> ---
>
> the 3rd recorded Sunday Christian church service.
> -------
> God was SO pleased with His disciples (even worshipping on Sunday)
> that He gave us the sign gifts. Would God have bestowed the sign
> gifts on the church during a Sunday Church service if it was a
> violation of His laws? Hardly! Not one WORD is said about, "Why are
> you being unfaithful and worshipping on Sunday when you KNOW that the
> day to worship is Saturday?"
>
> ----
>
>
> AC 2:5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from
> every nation under heaven. 6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came
> together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his
> own language. 7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who
> are speaking Galileans? 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in
> his own native language? 9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of
> Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and
> Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from
> Rome 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we
> hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" 12 Amazed
> and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"
>
>
> ----
>
>
> Then there's the famous account of the all day, all night service Paul
> conducted. He traveled for 12 days, but no mention whatever of any
> Sabbath services during that 12 days, which MUST have included at
> LEAST one Sabbath.
>
> However, it says that the Sunday morning, Paul got up to preach, and
> since he was about to leave, he preached all day and late into the
> night. A young boy fell asleep in an upper room and fell to his death.
> Paul interrupted the service long enough to raise the boy from the
> dead.
>
> Look it up. The passage opens with "ON the first day of the week, Paul
> got up to address the disciples..."
>
> A Sunday Christian service.
>
> Worship any day you choose, but don't call Sunday worship
> "unscriptural."
>
> It's not.
>
>
> jw
>
>
> >
>
Pastor Dave
<jw<no>@yoohoo.com> screamed out:
>x-no-archive: yes
>x-no-archive: yes
>On 25 Aug 2004 18:12:40 -0700, gar...@myway.com (gary_zw) wrote:
>
>>Jesus Never broke the Sabbath, he broke the rules the Jews applied to
>>the Sabbath but he never broke the Sabbath that he Himself made for
>>man..
>>
>The very fact that you, like all SDAs, quote the KJV extensively shows
>you are of a mindset.
>
>However, to address the point more directly, the Oral Laws (Tradition)
>were considered equally as binding as those that were written.
Not to God. In fact, Jesus demonstrated that fact.
Above you equated the traditions of the Jews with the
Torah. But Jesus most assuredly pointed out a
difference, thereby stating which one is to be
followed.
Matthew 15:1-9
1) Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were
of Jerusalem, saying,
2) Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the
elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat
bread.
Note that the Pharisees do not ask why His disciples
break the Laws of God, but rather, the "tradition of
the elders".
3) But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also
transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Note Jesus' words here, separating their traditions,
from God's Word. He says.... "YOUR TRADITION". He
clearly shows them that THEIR TRADITIONS violate GODS
COMMANDMENTS.
It is VERY important to note here, that He puts their
traditions IN THE LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE, to show whether
or not they should be followed.
4) For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and
mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him
die the death.
5) But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his
mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be
profited by me;
Note the first three words... "BUT YOU SAY". He
clearly separates their rituals from God's words.
6) And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be
free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none
effect by your tradition.
7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you,
saying,
Note that He calls them hypocrites. Obviously it is
not God's Laws that they're following, but their own
traditions, which do no more than give "lip service" to
God and not the heart.
Jesus clearly states that with their traditions, they
contradict the Holy Scriptures and He does NOT say that
this is ok, simply because their religion says so. He
tells them that they are violating God's very own
Commandments.
8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth,
and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is
far from me.
9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men.
Note here He states that they are teaching, "the
doctrines and commandments OF MEN and NOT GOD.
Now you can see here, the argument that is being put
forth by those who trust Scripture. JESUS HIMSELF
trusted Scripture over the traditions of religion and
clearly tells us which to follow.
While you try to pretend that their oral traditions
(which were written down btw) equate to Scripture, they
don't. Jesus commands us to adhere to the Scriptures
and declares them as God's Word.
Jesus Himself trusted Scripture even when He was
tempted by Satan himself, when Satan appeared to Him
directly. We are shown three of Jesus' temptations and
those three for a reason. The three major temptations
that man is tempted with, of course, but also, to show
how to respond to them. What did Jesus respond with
each and every time? SCRIPTURE QUOTES! What did He
say?.....
IT IS WRITTEN...
IT IS WRITTEN...
IT IS WRITTEN...
Jesus Himself went about quoting Scripture often and as
shown above, He separated Scripture from tradition.
Do NOT continue to equate the Word of God with
"tradition", as the Jews did in the Scripture above.
THAT was their mistake and Jesus showed them that
CLEARLY.
As for what I will do, I will take Jesus' word for it,
since I think He probably knew a little something about
what people are supposed to do, when it comes to
questions of what God says about something.
>And Jesus REPEATEDLY broke the Sabbath. He healed on Sabbath, which
>INFURIATED the Jews. He ate without washing His hands, etc.
See above.
>And when the disciples came to Him and asked Him if He could pare down
>the laws to a few that were manageable, He responded, "Sure. Love the
>Lord your god with all your heart,mind, and soul. And I'll give you a
>second. Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Then He put the cap
>on. "If you do these two, YOU HAVE FULFILLED THE LAW."
>
>NO mention of keeping the Sabbath, and this would have been the
>PERFECT place to reinstate it.
My point is not about the Sabbath and whether to follow
it, but rather, in regard to your statement which
implies that their traditions were equally as binding
as God's Laws. They weren't as far as God is
concerned.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
http://wayoflife.org/fbns/aremodern.htm
gary_zw
(Mark 7:7-9 KJV) "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for
doctrines the commandments of men. {8} For laying aside the
commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of
pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. {9} And he said
unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may
keep your own tradition."
Sunday is a commandment of men and if you keep it you worship God in
Vain. Jesus says so.
(Revelation 22:14 KJV) "Blessed are they that do his commandments,
that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through
the gates into the city."
You want the right to eternal life then keep the Commandments
gary_zw
Jesus Never broke the Sabbath, he broke the rules the Jews applied to
the Sabbath but he never broke the Sabbath that he Himself made for
man..
(1 John 3:4 KJV) "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the
law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
In saying Jesus broke the Sabbath you are saying Jesus is a sinner,
anyone who says Jesus broke the Sabbath is spreading a "doctrine of
sweet
news:a5f73871.04082...@posting.google.com...
Well said gary_zw! :)
--
sweet
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/
Donna
"gary_zw" <gar...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:27e0c11b.04082...@posting.google.com...
sweet
> x-no-archive: yes
> x-no-archive: yes
> On 25 Aug 2004 18:12:40 -0700, gar...@myway.com (gary_zw) wrote:
- - - c u t - - -
> However, to address the point more directly, the Oral Laws (Tradition)
> were considered equally as binding as those that were written.
>
> And Jesus REPEATEDLY broke the Sabbath. He healed on Sabbath, which
> INFURIATED the Jews. He ate without washing His hands, etc.
The oral tradition is a mixture of all the teachers of the law. It is not
God's word which was delivered by the profits and ignored by ancient
(national) Israel. I was told that this is in Isaiah: (paraphrased) 'Yet
there will come a time when men follow man's traditions and not the word of
God.' That was true at the golden calf, when the Lord walked the earth, and
today.
> And when the disciples came to Him and asked Him if He could pare down
This is a mis-quote. Here is the passage as quoted from gospelcom.net' NIV:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard
them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given
them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
commandments, which is the most important?"
29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is
this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord
is one.
30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and
with all your soul and with all your mind and with
all your strength.'
31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
There is no commandment greater than these."
32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right
in saying that God is one and there is no other but
him.
33 To love him with all your heart, with all your
understanding and with all your strength, and to love
your neighbor as yourself is more important than all
burnt offerings and sacrifices."
34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he
said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of
God." And from then on no one dared ask him any
more questions.
Our Lord was not asked to "prune down" any commandments.
> the laws to a few that were manageable, He responded, "Sure. Love the
> Lord your god with all your heart,mind, and soul. And I'll give you a
> second. Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Then He put the cap
> on. "If you do these two, YOU HAVE FULFILLED THE LAW."
As you can see, He did not say what you think He said.
> NO mention of keeping the Sabbath, and this would have been the
> PERFECT place to reinstate it.
Don't we show our love for God on the Sabbath? Besides, Christ was not
dismissing the other commandments by saying love God and your fellow man.
- - - c u t - - -
--
sweet
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/
Joe Cipriani
In the past I often used to ponder how the Jews could so easily miss
their Messiah? The Old Testament is full of testimony by the prophets
of the Christ that it just shatters the imagination.
But then we come to the Sabbath. The Catholic Church boldly
acknowledges that Saturday is the true biblical Sabbath. They freely
admit they "consecrated" Sunday in place of Saturday to celebrate the
resurrection. They freely admit that there is no scriptural evidence
to justify changing from Saturday to Sunday. (Just pick up a copy of
the Convert's Guide to Catechism or ask your local Catholic priest.)
In addition to changing the day of worship – the Universal Church
removed the second commandment against idol worship from their
teachings. The protestant church's use this change as part of their
justification for breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church. Yet
the protestant church's who broke from the Universal Church – stating
as their mantra the scriptures and only the scriptures – hold onto the
Sunday tradition with a passion and a fervor that rivals the mother
church.
Thus the prophecy of the servant Daniel is fulfilled: "He will speak
against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set
times and the laws.
It just boggles the mind.
Hebrew 4 states as clearly as it can be stated:
- because those who heard did not combine it with faith
- For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words:
Christ wondered when He returned would He find any still faithful. As
it was coming out of Egypt – the majority did not have faith. As it
was in the time of Isaiah, only 7000 out of 700,000 remained faithful.
How many will be faithful in the end?
God forgives – but He does not change nor does He compromise…
May God bless those who hear the Good Shepard's voice…
…and show mercy and compassion on those who yet live in ignorance.
Joe
- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - -
-- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -- - - -
Hebrews 4
A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God
1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let
us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it.
2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but
the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who
heard did not combine it with faith. 3Now we who have believed enter
that rest, just as God has said,
"So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' " 4And yet his work has been
finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken
about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God
rested from all his work."5And again in the passage above he says,
"They shall never enter my rest." 6It still remains that some will
enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to
them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God
again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he
spoke through David, as was said before:
"Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."[4] 8For
if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about
another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of
God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work,
just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to
enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example
of disobedience.
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any
double-¬edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit,
joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is
uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give
account.
Dore
> AGAIN, you quote VERY selectively. Why not just say, "I prefer to
> worship on Sabbath?" Rather than making it a universal law that all
> must follow. Which it was not.
The Sabbath is NOT about worship, it is about RESTING from your labors.
Worship is something that should be in your heart every minute of every day.
The Sabbath commandment, set IN STONE, by the hand of God, was NEVER
changed. So if you want to attend church on Sundays for your own desires,
then have it, but DON'T pretend that it is worship and DON'T pretend that it
fulfills keeping the Sabbath, because all it is, is socializing and learning
something that the pastor or teacher believes, because you were too lazy to
learn everything about God all by yourself. If the ONLY time that you
worship is on Sunday, or if you believe that your singing songs is worship,
then you have NO relationship with God at all, but simply put on some
shallow, superficial show for other people.
cont
> WHO is to observe Sabbath?
>
> "The Israelites are to observe Sabbath."
>
> WHO?
>
> "The Israelites are to observe Sabbath."
>
> Why just them?
>
> "celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant..."
So what Christ said and what is written in Revelations was a LIE, so you can
have some excuses for your neglecting to OBEY GOD?
Matt 19:17
if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
KJV
Mark 10:17-19
Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but
one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do
not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and
mother.
KJV
John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
KJV
John 14:21
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me:
and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and
will manifest myself to him.
KJV
John 15:10
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have
kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
KJV
Rev 12:17
which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV
Rev 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the
commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
KJV
Rev 22:14
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to
the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
KJV
cont
> In other words, you have usurped and STOLEN a special observance that
> was given to the JEWS.
On other words, you pick and choose the scriptures that are appealing to
you, make stuff up to excuse your sins, while IGNORING the Word of God that
require your observance and obedience.
cont
> As for Acts 13, what were the apostles doing at the Synagogue on
> Sabbath? And why? If you READ it closely, rather than merely replay
> the false teaching you've been programmed with, the apostles
> WORSHIPPED Christ as Christians as a separate service on Sunday. In
> THIS passage, we see them doing an "evangelistic outreach" to the
> Jews. Where would the Jews be on Sabbath? In the synagogue, or in the
> temple.
>
> And why isn't it a Christian service?
Excuse me, but anyone who believed in Christ and wanted to hear more of His
words, were considered Christians, even though they were JEWS. Worship is a
matter of the heart and NOT unique to any certain day or time. The gathering
together to hear the Word of God has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with RESTING
on the SEVENTH DAY that GOD commanded. Sure, often times they would be
taught on the Sabbath as it was custom, but that is ALSO is resting from
their LABORS, and keeping the day HOLY, as God made it. Obviously, you have
NO respect or LOVE for GOD, just EXCUSES.
cont
> For Christian worship services, read Acts 2. A SUNDAY (Pentecost)
> Christian worship service. when the Holy Spirit came and BLESSED the
> faithful with the sign gifts. And if their Sunday worship had been
> offensive, would not the Holy Spirit have said so?
And what does that have to do with RESTING on the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH and
keeping it HOLY, as God HALLOWED it? Having services to learn about Christ
and keeping the Sabbath, are completely TWO different things.
cont
> Try to Read the scriptures, and NOT read INTO them.
No, LIVE the scriptures, and stop making EXCUSES to defend your neglect of
them.
cont
> COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or
> drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration
> or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to
> come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone
> who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify
> you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he
> has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19
> He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body,
> supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God
> causes it to grow.
Paul was talking about not being judged on HOW you observe the Sabbath, NOT
on the fact that you don't bother obeying the commandment at all.
cont
> Aren't you judging we who do not worship on Sabbath? Indeed, you are.
As I just said, it is NOT HOW you were observing it, that you were being
judged, but the FACT that you IGNORE the commandment ALTOGETHER, and DO NOT
REST FROM YOUR LABORS, NOR KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH HOLY which is
DISOBEDIENCE and SIN.
--
Dore
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:84pri0d3j384ue1p0...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> AGAIN, you quote VERY selectively. Why not just say, "I prefer to
> worship on Sabbath?" Rather than making it a universal law that all
> must follow. Which it was not.
>
>
> Ex 31:16-17 which you SDAs LOVE to overlook
>
>
> 16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the
> generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign
> between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made
> the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from
> work and rested.' "
>
>
> WHO is to observe Sabbath?
>
> "The Israelites are to observe Sabbath."
>
> WHO?
>
> "The Israelites are to observe Sabbath."
>
> Why just them?
>
> "celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant..."
>
> In other words, you have usurped and STOLEN a special observance that
> was given to the JEWS.
>
>
>
> As for Acts 13, what were the apostles doing at the Synagogue on
> Sabbath? And why? If you READ it closely, rather than merely replay
> the false teaching you've been programmed with, the apostles
> WORSHIPPED Christ as Christians as a separate service on Sunday. In
> THIS passage, we see them doing an "evangelistic outreach" to the
> Jews. Where would the Jews be on Sabbath? In the synagogue, or in the
> temple.
>
> And why isn't it a Christian service?
>
>
> AC 13:13 From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in
> Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. 14 From Perga
> they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the
> synagogue and sat down. 15 After the reading from the Law and the
> Prophets, the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers,
> if you have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak."
>
> WHO asked the apostles/Paul to speak?
>
> "...the synagogue rulers sent word to them, saying, "Brothers, if you
> have a message of encouragement for the people, please speak."
>
> So, was this a Christian service, attended exclusively by Christians?
> NO, it was NOT! "... the synagogue rulers..." Who would THEY be?
> JEWS!!!!! NOT Christians!
>
> This was an evangelistic outreach, NOT "Christian worship services."
>
> For Christian worship services, read Acts 2. A SUNDAY (Pentecost)
> Christian worship service. when the Holy Spirit came and BLESSED the
> faithful with the sign gifts. And if their Sunday worship had been
> offensive, would not the Holy Spirit have said so?
>
> Acts 20
>
>
> AC 20:1 When the uproar had ended, Paul sent for the disciples and,
> after encouraging them, said good-by and set out for Macedonia. 2 He
> traveled through that area, speaking many words of encouragement to
> the people, and finally arrived in Greece, 3 where he stayed three
> months. Because the Jews made a plot against him just as he was about
> to sail for Syria, he decided to go back through Macedonia. 4 He was
> accompanied by Sopater son of Pyrrhus from Berea, Aristarchus and
> Secundus from Thessalonica, Gaius from Derbe, Timothy also, and
> Tychicus and Trophimus from the province of Asia. 5 These men went on
> ahead and waited for us at Troas. 6 But we sailed from Philippi after
> the Feast of Unleavened Bread, and five days later joined the others
> at Troas, where we stayed seven days.
>
> AC 20:7 On the first day of the week we came together to break
> bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the
> next day, kept on talking until midnight. 8 There were many lamps in
> the upstairs room where we were meeting. 9 Seated in a window was a
> young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep as Paul
> talked on and on. When he was sound asleep, he fell to the ground from
> the third story and was picked up dead. 10 Paul went down, threw
> himself on the young man and put his arms around him. "Don't be
> alarmed," he said. "He's alive!" 11 Then he went upstairs again and
> broke bread and ate. After talking until daylight, he left. 12 The
> people took the young man home alive and were greatly comforted.
>
>
> They traveled for 12 days. Yet NO mention of Sabbath worship. The
> FIRST mention of worship takes place in verse 7, where it says....
>
> "... on the FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK, we came together to break bread..."
> A euphemism for "Christian worship" which we still use today.
>
> I have attended COUNTLESS "Church potlucks", where we worshipped
> together and ate together. It was typically an all-day event.
>
> AC 13:16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men
> of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God
> of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper
> during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that
> country, 18 he endured their conduct for about forty years in the
> desert, 19 he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to
> his people as their inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years.
> "After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the
> prophet. 21 Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul
> son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. 22 After
> removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him:
> `I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do
> everything I want him to do.'
>
>
> Try to Read the scriptures, and NOT read INTO them.
>
> Only in that way can the Holy Spirit guide you into all truth.
>
> And you didn't deal with a MAJOR passage on the subject.
>
> COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or
> drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration
> or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to
> come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone
> who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify
> you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he
> has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19
> He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body,
> supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God
> causes it to grow.
>
> COL 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of
> this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to
> its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These
> are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human
> commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance
> of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and
> their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in
> restraining sensual indulgence.
>
> C
>
> Aren't you judging we who do not worship on Sabbath? Indeed, you are.
>
>
> jw
>
> >
> >in Christ,
> >Melody
>
Dore
> Are Christ and the Holy Spirit the same God?
>
> Yes.
>
> Then, if the Holy Spirit approves of Sunday worship, it's equivalent
> to Christ endorsing it as well.
Does Christ and the Holy Spirit approve of DISOBEDIENCE and SIN? If you can
IGNORE keeping the Sabbath HOLY and resting from your labors, then I
suppose, Christ and the Holy Spirit approve of you committing idolatry,
taking God's name in vain, worshipping graven images, stealing, killing,
bearing false witness, adultery, dishonoring your parents and coveting as
well?
cont
> And I've found another Sunday worship passage in which Jesus DID
> participate. I firmly believe that you miss these important texts
> because you truly don't care to find them.
What does that have to do with KEEPING THE SABBATH HOLY?
Ex 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt
not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor
thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath
day, and hallowed it.
KJV
Where does it state anywhere in this COMMANDMENT that the SEVENTH DAY
SABBATH is a day of worship?
cont
> Did He rebuke them for worshipping on Sunday? He did not.
They weren't worshipping, they were gathered together to hear the Word of
God. Worship is LOVING GOD with all of your heart, mind, soul and strength
and if you don't KNOW that, then you have NEVER worshipped God at all.
--
Dore
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:ntpri0577oal2irmj...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:25:27 -0700, "Andrew" <andrew....@usa.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote
> > in message news:ao9qi01k1o8g0736n...@4ax.com...
> >
> >>
> >> ...as I read my Bible, I find not ONE passage in which Christ taught
Sabbath worship.
> >
> > He taught it by living it!...by attending public worship
every
> > Sabbath (Lk4:16), and doing good to those in need.
That's
> > how He taught it. Conversely,He never mentioned the word
> > Sunday! So, the supposed change was never authorized by
> > Him.
> >
>
> Are Christ and the Holy Spirit the same God?
>
> Yes.
>
> Then, if the Holy Spirit approves of Sunday worship, it's equivalent
> to Christ endorsing it as well.
>
> Re-read Acts 2.
>
>
> And I've found another Sunday worship passage in which Jesus DID
> participate. I firmly believe that you miss these important texts
> because you truly don't care to find them.
>
> Remember the passage in which Thomas saw the scars in the Lord's
> hands? Did you ever notice what day that service was?
>
> The scripture (John) says that the very evening Jesus arose (Sunday
> evening) He appeared to all the disciples / apostles in the upper room
> during a church service, a Christian church service. (There wouldn't
> have been any non-Christians there, because at that point, the
> Christians were all in hiding.
>
> The evening He rose, He first appeared to the 12 and the others,
> during a Sunday evening Christian service. (note, I am NOT saying that
> they didn't worship every day. I AM saying that they were worshipping
> that Sunday evening.)
>
> Did He rebuke them for worshipping on Sunday? He did not.
>
> The text says, He said, "Peace be with you." And that's kinda the end
> of the passage. Further down, it says, "a week later..." (that is,the
> following Sunday), during another Sunday Christian service, He
> returned, and this is where He showed Thomas His scars.
>
> So, right there in John, we find two Sunday Christian services, BOTH
> attended by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Talk about teaching from
> EXAMPLE!!
>
> Acts 2 provides the 3rd recorded Sunday service. Pentecost. Did the
> Holy Spirit REBUKE the disciples for worshipping on Sunday? He did
> not. He was so pleased that He gave them the sign gifts.
>
> Acts 20 says Paul and his buddies traveled for 12 days. No mention of
> Sabbath observance, but on Sunday morning (we've been here), Paul got
> up and literally preached all day and into the night.
>
>
> jw
>
> >> And I DO find at least two times in the New Testament where Sunday
> >> worship was BLESSED by God.
> >>
> >> Find them and get back to me.
> >>
> >> Hint. John and Acts.
> >
> > The purpose for the John passage assembly, was not to
celebrate
> > a resurrection (they didn't even believe in it at that
point), but "for
> > fear of the Jews." So how do you figure it was 'blessed by
God"?
>
> Says whom? And what is YOUR definition of "Church?" Mine is, "where
> two or more are gathered in my name..."
>
> MT 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree
> about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in
> heaven. 20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I
> with them."
>
>
> IOW, I think no matter WHAT I say, no matter WHAT scripture I produce
> that says clearly they were worshipping on Sunday, you will find an
> excuse to not believe it. IOW, you are in bondage to the law. I
> however, am free in Christ.
>
> And Paul put it VERY strongly in Acts 20 that we were not to argue
> over Sabbath. Yet you continue to repudiate Paul.
>
> Ex says that Sabbath was for the JEWS only. Yet you find a way to
> insinuate yourself into a special covenant He made JUST for the Old
> Testament Jews.
>
>
>
> >>
> >> jw
> >
> > Those who wish to follow Jesus will in His strength..break
> > from the traditions contrary to the commandments of God.
>
> You follow the Old Testament laws; I follow the New Testament laws. IT
> is THOSE laws, NOT the Old Testament laws, which our Lord and Savior
> Christ gave us.
>
>
> jw
> >
>
Blobert!
> Sunday is a commandment of men and if you keep it you worship God in
> Vain.
Please show me where anyone has commanded us to worship on Sunday.
While you're at it; show me where anyone commands that we do NOT worship
on Sunday.
Blobert<><
Andrew
"Joe Cipriani" <Subscri...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hebrews 4
> 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
He never **changed** His holy day. Therefore, it **REMAINS**.
Andrew
>
>
> Sabbath was intended to begin with, for the Jews, not we gentiles.
>
> Ex 31:16-17
>
> Sabbath is for the Jews.
>
We are specifically told that it is for everyone on the face of the whole earth who desires to..
^^^^^^^^
1. "join themselves to the LORD"
2. "to love the name of the LORD"
3. "and to be his servants"
**
Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say,
"The LORD will surely separate me from his people";
and let not the eunuch say,
"Behold, I am a dry tree."
For thus says the LORD:
"To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths,
who choose the things that please me
and hold fast my covenant,
I will give in my house and within my walls
a monument and a name
better than sons and daughters;
I will give them an everlasting name
that shall not be cut off.
"And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD,
to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD,
and to be his servants,
----> everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it,
and holds fast my covenant--
these I will bring to my holy mountain,
and make them joyful in my house of prayer.
~ Isaiah 56:1-7a ~ ESV
These great blessings are for all who will..God does not exclude.
But they are not for those who choose to live in rebellion against
their Maker living out the dictates of their carnal nature. Because
"the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the
law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the
flesh cannot please God" Rom 8:7,8.
sweet
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:00:41 GMT, "sweet" <swee...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
> >news:n2iri09e06tt9advh...@4ax.com...
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >> On 25 Aug 2004 18:12:40 -0700, gar...@myway.com (gary_zw) wrote:
> >
> >- - - c u t - - -
> >
> >> However, to address the point more directly, the Oral Laws (Tradition)
> >> were considered equally as binding as those that were written.
> >>
> >> And Jesus REPEATEDLY broke the Sabbath. He healed on Sabbath, which
> >> INFURIATED the Jews. He ate without washing His hands, etc.
> >
> >The oral tradition is a mixture of all the teachers of the law. It is not
> >God's word which was delivered by the profits and ignored by ancient
> >(national) Israel. I was told that this is in Isaiah: (paraphrased) 'Yet
> >there will come a time when men follow man's traditions and not the word
of
> >God.' That was true at the golden calf, when the Lord walked the earth,
and
> >today.
> >
> >> And when the disciples came to Him and asked Him if He could pare down
> >
> >This is a mis-quote. Here is the passage as quoted from gospelcom.net'
NIV:
>
> my childhood, some texts/translations DO say that some of the
> disciples came to Jesus with the question. This may have been a bad
> translation at the time. I admit I may have remembered incorrectly.
> However, to not get hung up in trivia of "who asked Him that
> question?" The issue is NOT WHO asked? the issue is the answer.
>
> There were two laws He gave them. Love God, and love one another.
>
> The answer doesn't change no matter who asked the question. And thanks
> for the attempt, but you didn't see where I was going, evidently,and
> your need to be "correct" overshadowed" the point I was making.
>
> When Jesus gave us those two laws, Sabbath was NOT mentioned, and
> nowhere else in the gospels does He reinstate Sabbath.
>
> We DO see, at the end of John's gospel, that after HE arose, He joined
> the disciples in two separate Sunday Christian services a week apart,
> which we see in the John 20 passage.
>
> >
> >28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard
> > them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given
> > them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the
> > commandments, which is the most important?"
> >
> >29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is
> > this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord
> > is one.
> >
> >30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and
> > with all your soul and with all your mind and with
> > all your strength.'
> >
> >31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
> > There is no commandment greater than these."
> >
> >32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right
> > in saying that God is one and there is no other but
> > him.
> >
> >33 To love him with all your heart, with all your
> > understanding and with all your strength, and to love
> > your neighbor as yourself is more important than all
> > burnt offerings and sacrifices."
> >
> >34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he
> > said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of
> > God." And from then on no one dared ask him any
> > more questions.
> >
> >Our Lord was not asked to "prune down" any commandments.
>
> expected to do. He did. One commandment, and then He gave them one
> m0ore.
>
>
> You also used the wrong passage, which is typical with dishonest
> discourse over scripture.
>
> Try on these two.
>
> MT 22:34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the
> Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested
> him with this question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment
> in the Law?"
>
> MT 22:37 Jesus replied: " `Love the Lord your God with all your
> heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the
> first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: `Love
> your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on
> these two commandments."
>
>
> The scholars who have taught me have said, in modern American, this
> translates to, "If you obey these two laws, you have fulfilled the
> law."
>
> I think that interpretation from my scholars is as good as yours, even
> superior.
>
>
> Also Paul's comments on the same subject. Would you admit/agree that
> Paul's words as are authoritative as Christ's? If they are in the
> bible?
>
> Paul said,
>
> GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use
> your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another
> in love.
>
> ---> 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your
> neighbor as yourself." <---
>
> >
> >> the laws to a few that were manageable, He responded, "Sure. Love the
> >> Lord your god with all your heart,mind, and soul. And I'll give you a
> >> second. Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Then He put the cap
> >> on. "If you do these two, YOU HAVE FULFILLED THE LAW."
> >
> >As you can see, He did not say what you think He said.
>
>
> However, that interpretation still fits with what He said, IMHO.
>
>
> >
> >> NO mention of keeping the Sabbath, and this would have been the
> >> PERFECT place to reinstate it.
> >
> >Don't we show our love for God on the Sabbath?
>
> Paul indicated clearly that God is MUCH more concerned THAT we worship
> than He is hung up on which day.
>
>
> Sabbath was intended to begin with, for the Jews, not we gentiles.
>
> Ex 31:16-17
>
> Sabbath is for the Jews.
>
> >dismissing the other commandments by saying love God and your fellow man.
>
> your fellow man as you love your own flesh, you will not offend God.
>
>
> Jesus NEVER preached that we must keep Sabbath. And after He arose, He
> personally attended not one, but two Sunday Christian services that
> are recorded in John 20. One the evening of the SUNDAY He arose; the
> next was the following SUNDAY.
>
>
> Worship as you wish for a Judaiser (one who is hung up on the Old
> Testament.) The Bible says I am "free indeed," and part of that
> freedom is choosing what Bible to read, what church to attend, and on
> what day(s) to worship.
>
>
> jw
>
>
> >
> >- - - c u t - - -
>
Not one of the ten commandments says: "love God," nor "love your neighbor."
Our Lord always spoke in parables. His reply is a summary of the 2 themes in
the ten commandments. As such they are all there.
--
sweet
http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/jbc33/
Donna
other's birthdays on any day we choose and is convenient for us. In other
words we can fit our family members birthdays into our lives as we please.
According to your reasoning it does not matter that the actual birthdays
were set aside for all to celebrate together in honor of one and receive the
blessing in that. The guest of honor and the ice cream and cake were ready
on one day. So, if we decide to celebrate on another day we miss out and
even though we justify for having set aside another day it is not the same
at all. We were not there at the appointed time.
Donna
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:5phti0lvjkg6heltv...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:34:48 -0500, "Donna"
> <Do...@nospamlocalline.com> wrote:
>
> >All of what I am about to share has been shared before so I will just
> >mention a few things here. First of all if we open God's Word trying to
find
> >scripture to back up what we already believe we cannot say we are seeking
> >the truth. If we are to really seek the truth in God's word we must put
> >aside all of our preconceived ideas and things we have been taught by man
> >and come to His word with an open heart and a yearning to learn the
truth,
> >asking God's guidance through His Holy Spirit.
> >
> >
> >
> >Acts 20 is a prime example. Trying to make it say what you already
believe
> >is easily done, but it is not the truth because it entails deleting,
adding
> >to or distortion and we are sternly warned about doing that. No where are
we
> >told it was a Sunday morning or that Paul preached all day. What does it
> >really say?
> >
>
> And AROUND and AROUND And AROUND and AROUND And AROUND and AROUND And
> AROUND and AROUND.
>
> It says, "on the first day of the week," right off the bat. If that's
> not a Sunday, my calendar is off.
>
> Talk about twisting the text to say what you want it to say, and
> disregarding the LITERAL text!
>
>
> What about John chapter 20, where we see, not ONE, but TWO Sunday
> services. What makes me think God approved? Because Jesus attended
> both.
>
> (it doesn't matter what they were doing. If they gathered to clean up
> the church on Sunday, and then to have lunch and dinner (lunch
> before/dinner after), with a 30 minute Bible study and a 30 minute
> sermonette, that is a Sunday service.)
>
> There was 1 of these Sunday meetings (church) the evening He rose, and
> the same passage says "the following week" (the next Sunday), they met
> again, and Jesus attended.
>
> Believe as you wish. I will believe the literal.
>
> It is YOU who holds to the traditions of men, worshipping on the Old
> Testament Sabbath, which was given to the JEWS to begin with. Ex
> 31:16-17
>
>
> Like I have said, go ahead and search out ONLY THOSE PASSAGES that
> seem to fit your beliefs, and CONTINUE TO IGNORE those that do not.
>
> I shall find EVERY passage, and make them fit.
>
> There are enough Sunday service passages to make me believe the day of
> the week does not matter.
>
>
>
> jw
> >
> >
Donna
JW comments: "And I continue to wonder why this spamm keeps cluttering up a
group
that is known to be frequented by confirmed Sunday worshippers!"
Maybe for the same reason the Israelites had to wander for 40 years in the
wilderness. God granted them 40 years to learn and obey. They were too
stiffnecked, continuing to do their own thing and their reward..........
they were not allowed to go into the promised land.
Our Lord Jesus Christ is coming back for His children very soon and will
take us to our promised land.
Rev. 22:14 "Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have
right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev. 22:15 "For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and
murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
It is a lie of Satan's, through the RCC, and into many protestant churches,
that God's law was changed. God never changes, nor does His law. God is love
and perfect. He gave us a perfect law of love. Why believe a lie when the
truth sets us free?
In our Lord Jesus Christ's service,
Donna
"J W @yoohoo.com>" <jw<no> wrote in message
news:9aiti0953revgapdv...@4ax.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> On 26 Aug 2004 17:50:10 -0700, Subscri...@comcast.net (Joe
> The RCC is the LAST place I would look for justification of Sunday
> worship. As I can find NUMEROUS Sunday services in the New Testament,
> two which Christ attended Himself, I need not ask Rome's
> permission--or yours--for what day I worship.
>
> And I continue to wonder why this spamm keeps cluttering up a group
> that is known to be frequented by confirmed Sunday worshippers!
>
>
> jw
>
>
> (Just pick up a copy of
> >the Convert's Guide to Catechism or ask your local Catholic priest.)
> >
> >In addition to changing the day of worship
>
> They didn't. And if they claim otherwise, they' re lying. Sunday
> worship first appears in the New Testament.
>
>
> jw
>
>
> snip
>
Pastor Dave
Aug 2004 13:47:39 -0700, gar...@gmail.com (gary_zw)
screamed out:
>(Mark 7:7-9 KJV) "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for
>doctrines the commandments of men. {8} For laying aside the
>commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of
>pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. {9} And he said
>unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may
>keep your own tradition."
>
>Sunday is a commandment of men and if you keep it you worship God in
>Vain. Jesus says so.
You assume that I believe that Sunday is the Sabbath.
I do not. Sunday is simply the day that the Christians
gathered to worship. Probably because it was the day
He rose and because the first Christians were Jews,
which means they would have been at Temple on Saturday.
>You want the right to eternal life then keep the Commandments
That's not what the Bible says to Christians. They are
good moral Commandments, but Christians cannot be
condemned by the Law.
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Exchange between Marge and Geoffrey the butler
on "Fresh Prince" (both African American):
Marge: My brother, you have been oppressed,
repressed and suppressed. Don't you know
you can be free?
Geoffrey: I have known freedom. I don't like
the health plan.
Pastor Dave
<OneN...@Under.Blob> screamed out:
>"gary_zw" <gar...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Sunday is a commandment of men and if you keep it you worship God in
>> Vain.
>
> Please show me where anyone has commanded us to worship on Sunday.
That was the RCC. :)
--
Pastor Dave Raymond
"Were they ashamed when they made an abomination?
They were not at all ashamed, nor did they know
to blush. So they shall fall among those who fall.
At the time I visit them, they shall be cast down,
says Jehovah." - Jeremiah 6:15
"And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of
the Spirit, which is the word of God:" - Ephesians 6:17
/
o{}xxxxx[]::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::>
\
Abortion = 1 dead, 1 wounded.
Kaspa
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."John 14:15
>Jesus personally attended the two Sunday services in John
Jesus personaly attended many more Sabbath services.
"And you CONTINUE to go round and round and round and round and round
and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
and round and round and round and round and round and round and round
and round and round and round and round" with the same old weak arguments
that we have all seen before.
as you repudiate Jesus Lord of the Sabbath
Andrew
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 21:10:52 -0700, "Andrew" wrote:
> >
> >"Joe Cipriani" wrote:
> >>
> >> Hebrews 4
> >> 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
> >
> >He never **changed** His holy day. Therefore, it **REMAINS**.
>
>
> people who worship on Sunday?
Your reference to the word of God as.. "this carp" is a blatant
expression of contempt which will condemn you at the last day.
"The one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that
very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day."
~ John 12:48 NIV ~
We may disagree on the exegesis, but may we always respect His
word which includes the whole Bible.
The reason the thread is in the Baptist group is because you had it
listed in the NGs when you started (or restarted) the topic on 8/23.
Andrew
Andrew
>
> And I continue to wonder why this spamm keeps cluttering up a group
> that is known to be frequented by confirmed Sunday worshippers!
>
You're the one who started it on 8/23. NOW you complain because
you can't stand the clear truth from the word of God and are whining.
Blobert!
"Pastor Dave" <pastor...@nospam-yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:167ui09b7if2enidn...@4ax.com...
> While skydiving off of the Empire State Building on
> Fri, 27 Aug 2004 02:14:36 GMT, "Blobert!"
> <OneN...@Under.Blob> screamed out:
>
> >"gary_zw" <gar...@gmail.com> wrote
> >> Sunday is a commandment of men and if you keep it you worship God in
> >> Vain.
> >
> > Please show me where anyone has commanded us to worship on Sunday.
>
> That was the RCC. :)
I was not aware that it was an actual command.
Blobert!
news:412f22b9$0$2481$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
they come in with a new ISP and they are =still= having the same bloody
arguement!