The Error of the Greek Church That Changed Eschatology!
Pastor Dave
The Error of the Greek Church, which persists today
in the Gentile Churches!
Timothy James
The belief in the failure of Christ�s prophecies stem from
the attempts of a Gentile-dominated church after A.D. 70
trying to understand Jewish concepts. This lack of
understanding should not amaze us, for most of the Jewish
world misunderstood the prophecies of His first coming,
so why should we expect any difference in recognition
of His second coming by Gentile interpreters?
If any literature was written by them after the fall of
Jerusalem that taught the return of Christ in that event,
there is good reason to believe that it was suppressed or
beyond the understanding of the dominant Gentile church.
Careful study of Rabbinic sources shows that the remnant
of the Jewish nation actively destroyed all apocalyptic
works speaking of an imminent end after A.D. 70 because
of its embarrassment to them. Hence, suppression of
Jewish/Christian material referring to fulfilled imminence
was a most likely target of this group also.
Another factor related to this is N. B. Stonehouse�s mention
of a definite division in the church after A.D. 70. Syrian
Christianity was isolated from the Greek world because of
its Aramaic language. This barrier caused a more pure line
of understanding and tradition. Therefore, the Greek church
considered the Syrian church "heretical" because they
rejected the Greek�s sensual chiliasm and held to a
spiritual/figurative understanding of Jewish/Christian
apocalyptic.
This distaste for sensual chiliasm was a major factor in
their total rejection of the Apocalypse in the early Syrian
texts and canon.
It wasn�t till later that Revelation was added, and then
with a heading that placed its date in reign of Nero,
before the A.D. 70 event.
Interpretation of Scripture by the Gentile-dominated church
was caught up in the idea of a physical return and a literal
interpretation of the very figurative Jewish apocalyptic
language found in the book of Revelation and other OT
& NT prophecies.
Yet, even in the early church, Christ�s return was seen
by the Jewish Christians to be a spiritual change in
the authority of the Kingdom. Such can be seen in
the "jumping the gun" of the early church in the teaching
that the Lord had come before A.D. 70, (II Thess. 2:1-2).
This premature teaching was dangerous to the early church
since it implied an acceptance of the Temple cultus, thus
putting Christianity in the category of just a new sect of
Judaism, rather than the fulfillment of the whole thing.
The fact that they believed the Lord had come before A.D. 70
shows that they interpreted His return as a spiritual coming
in the early church. Even though they were premature,
it only supports our early research that they expected
His return just as He said, in that generation.
There are only two main verses that have loosely been used
to assume a physical return of Christ by the Greek-dominated
church.
The first is Acts 1:9-11 (the Ascension), "he was taken up;
and a cloud received him out of their sight". After this
the two angels reassured the disciples saying, "this same
Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so
come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven"
(emphasis mine, tj).
The emphasis here is not on the transfigured form, but on
the manner in which he ascended and would return, "in a
cloud". This event was a reaffirmation of Jesus� being the
apocalyptic "Son of Man" spoken of in Daniel and the
Gospels. That he, "the Son of Man", came with the clouds
of heaven (Daniel 7:13), is later emphatically stated to be
fulfilled in His return, in numerous places (Matt.16:27f;
24:30; Mark 13:26; and Luke 21:27).
<Also note that Acts 1:9-11 says that He was taken up
OUT OF THEIR SIGHT, so to return in the same way
would also have to mean, "out of their sight"!>
The second verse under consideration is Revelation 1:7.
"Behold, he cometh in the clouds and every eye shall see
him, every one which pierced him: and all the kindred
of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.".
Here one finds the same apocalyptic "Son of Man" imagery
regarding His "coming in the clouds". The language of
the text shows that literally, those that would see him
were even who had "pierced him", namely the Jews
(Acts 2:23,36; 5:30;10:39).
<Also note that the word translated to "see" can also
be translated as "understand" and that the word
translated into "tribes" (phule) is always used in
the NT to note the tribes of Israel (see James 1:1)
and note that the word translated into "earth" there,
is the Greek word for "soil", or "land" and not the
planet, which would be "kosmos" (see John 1:9
for use of "kosmos" by the same author).>
In His parousia in judgment on the Jewish theocracy,
those that had rejected Him would now "see" the truth
of Jesus� claims and their error, i.e. a nationalistic
expectation of the Kingdom (Matthew 26:64).
Truly, upon a close investigation of the subject, there are
not any verses in the New Testament that point to any other
manner of coming other than a spiritual parousia of Christ
in a judgment of God�s enemies at the redemptive-historical
end-time of the Old Covenant system.
In fulfilling this event, the bondage of the non-occurrence
theory is vanquished.
(Chapter 13 of his book, "THE MESSIAH�S RETURN, Delayed?
Fulfilled? Or Double-Fulfillment?)
http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/t/theory_parousia-delay.html
And please note that the verse that many use to try to
claim that it is about the end of the planet actually says
that it was about the physical removal of the Old Covenant
and that it was "about to happen"/"ready to vanish" in
THEIR TIME:
"In that He says, 'A new covenant', He has made the
first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and
growing old is READY to vanish away." - Hebrews 8:13
That word can also be translated as, "near", or "about to"
and note that it was written in the 1st century, not the 21st!
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Weakness of faith ought not be mistaken for falseness
of promise." - Unknown
Bitterscroll
>
> And please note that the verse that many use to try to
> claim that it is about the end of the planet actually says
> that it was about the physical removal of the Old Covenant
> and that it was "about to happen"/"ready to vanish" in
> THEIR TIME:
>
> "In that He says, 'A new covenant', He has made the
> first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and
> growing old is READY to vanish away." - Hebrews 8:13
>
> That word can also be translated as, "near", or "about to"
> and note that it was written in the 1st century, not the 21st!
>
> --
>
> Pastor Dave
>
> The following is part of my auto-rotating
> sig file and not part of the message body.
>
> "Weakness of faith ought not be mistaken for falseness
> of promise." - Unknown
Pastor Dave:
What event will occur next to fulfill God's plan for the world?
Ike E 11/16/09
"Pastor Dave" <ananias917_@_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a76jg5pk9c90kf7oe...@4ax.com...
>
> The Error of the Greek Church, which persists today
> in the Gentile Churches!
Still pimping the same whores, I see.
[snip]
Ike
Ike E 11/16/09
"Bitterscroll" <vkl...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c58f61d3-9227-4f3b...@e4g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> What event will occur next to fulfill God's plan for the world?
None, actually. Prophecy isn't generally ABOUT events, as the ignorant
teach--it's about CONDITIONS.
Ike
Pastor Dave
<vkl...@gmail.com> spake thusly:
> Pastor Dave:
> What event will occur next to fulfill God's plan for the world?
I am not God and have no idea. What I do know,
is that God's plan for redemption is complete and
that the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled.
So whatever His plan is as far as specific events
are concerned, they won't be listed there.
And now that I have answered your question,
my question for you is; "What does that have
to do with what I posted?".
It seems to me that you're making the argument
that if all of the prophecies of the Bible have been
fulfilled, that Go must have no plans for the world.
It also seems to me that you might be indirectly
asking the question; "If the Bible isn't all about us,
then what good is it?".
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
"Wisdom is in the sight of him who has understanding,
but the eyes of a fool are on the ends of the earth."
- Proverbs 17:24
Ike E 11/23/9
Your doctrines "prove" so.
Ike
SwordoZ
SoZ:
Agree.
> And now that I have answered your question,
> my question for you is; "What does that have
> to do with what I posted?".
> It seems to me that you're making the argument
> that if all of the prophecies of the Bible have been
> fulfilled, that Go must have no plans for the world.
> It also seems to me that you might be indirectly
> asking the question; "If the Bible isn't all about us,
> then what good is it?".
SoZ:
Why attritribute motives to a simple statement?
Bitterscroll
>
> - Show quoted text -
Pastor Dave:
Your responses help me to organize my thoughts.
My argument is that all prophecies have not been fulfilled. First,
You quote prophecies, therefore you must believe in prophecies,
therefore you and I agree. Also, Jesus many times quotes Old Testament
scripture and the prophets, which also substantiates prophecy, and
which, I believe, you and I also agree.
Now, in the Old Testament we find that the two kingdoms of Israel,
North and South, divided after the reign of Solomon. In numerous
Scriptures, the reunification of the scattered northern tribes with
the two southern tribes, Judah and Benjamin is prophecied, and this
reunification event has never been fulfilled. Therefore, all prophecy
has not been fulfilled.
Eziekiel relates this reunification:
Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take
the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes
of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the
stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine
hand.
Also Josephus Ant. V ii states that the ten tribes had an opprotunity
to return under Xerxes but chose to remain beyond the Euphrates:
... but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that
country; wherefore are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to
the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and
are an immense multitude not to be estimated by numbers.
These citations confirm my argument that all prophecies have not been
fulfilled, and your agrument must be an opinion.
Randy ®
Bitterscroll <vkl...@gmail.com> wrote:
Correct!
--
Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
______________________________________________
www.faithguard.org
www.twitter.com/faithguard
www.facebook.com/faithguard
______________________________________________
Bitterscroll
>
> > These citations confirm my argument that all prophecies have not been
> > fulfilled, and your agrument must be an opinion.
>
> Correct!
>
> --
> Have you heard Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him
> from the dead? Did you know God saves you from hell and
> gives you eternal life through faith in this finished work alone,
> not your merits (Jn. 3:16; 1 Cor. 15:1-3; Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess.
> 1:8-9)? This is so man cannot boast, and God alone gets the
> glory (Eph. 2:8-9).
> ______________________________________________www.faithguard.orgwww.twitter.com/faithguardwww.facebook.com/faithguard
>
> - Show quoted text -
Amen!
Pastor Dave
<vkl...@gmail.com> spake thusly:
> On Nov 23, 3:22�am, Pastor Dave wrote:
>
>>>> The Error of the Greek Church, which
>>>> persists today in the Gentile Churches!
>>>>
>>>> Timothy James
>>>>
>>>> The belief in the failure of Christ�s prophecies
>>>> stem from the attempts of a Gentile-dominated
>>>> church after A.D. 70 trying to understand
>>>> Jewish concepts. �This lack of understanding
>>>> should not amaze us, for most of the Jewish
>>>> world misunderstood the prophecies of His
>>>> first coming, so why should we expect any
>>>> difference in recognition of His second coming
>>>> by Gentile interpreters?
<snip>
>>> Pastor Dave:
>>> What event will occur next to fulfill
>>> God's plan for the world?
>>
>> I am not God and have no idea. �What I do know,
>> is that God's plan for redemption is complete and
>> that the prophecies of the Bible have been fulfilled.
>> So whatever His plan is as far as specific events
>> are concerned, they won't be listed there.
>>
>> And now that I have answered your question,
>> my question for you is; "What does that have
>> to do with what I posted?".
>>
>> It seems to me that you're making the argument
>> that if all of the prophecies of the Bible have been
>> fulfilled, that Go must have no plans for the world.
>>
>> It also seems to me that you might be indirectly
>> asking the question; "If the Bible isn't all about us,
>> then what good is it?".
>
> Pastor Dave:
> Your responses help me to organize my thoughts.
> My argument is that all prophecies have not been
> fulfilled.
<snip>
This thread was not even about "all prophecies",
but "Christ's prophecies" (see above). I simply
answered your question, which as I said, had
nothing to do with what I posted. And I simply
answered it to be polite, in the hope that you
would then get back to the subject at hand,
which was the prompting of my question to you;
"What does this have to do with what I posted?".
The issue that you brought up certainly is good issue
for discussion. I'm not saying it isn't a worthy subject.
However, I do not see what it has to do at all with
what I posted, nor did you answer my question,
since saying...
"Your responses help me to organize my thoughts."
...is not an answer to my question, which was...
"What does that have to do with what I posted?"
With all due respect, it seems that you wish to ignore
whatever I post and just skip to whatever it is you
feel like bringing up, as if to say; "That can't be true,
because hey, look at this over here".
I.e., you have what you think are "proofs" that not
all prophecy has been fulfilled yet and you want to
just change the subject to those things and I don't
see how that is proper. No offense, but it just isn't.
Especially since it means that I am wasting my time
posting anything, because it's just going to be
ignored in any discussion, while I'm supposed to be
at your beck and call, to answer whatever you want
me to answer to, that you post, even when you post
something in response to a thread that I start and
you completely ignore the subject of that thread.
Do you not see how that is rude? I'm not saying
that it has been intentional on your part thus far.
I am just saying that this is what's happening and
that I wish to bring it to your attention, so that
you could realize it, before it got out of hand. :)
My point to you, is that I posted something on
a particular subject and that should be the topic
of discussion for that same thread.
As for the topic that you brought up, making claims
that Ezekiel 37-39 (whatever parts within) hasn't been
fulfilled yet, is a very popular claim. And it is one that
we can discuss. And I do genuinely appreciate that
you at least tried to look at some historical information
and relaying that in your post. While it is not all the
relevant information, it is far better than what most
Futurists do, which is to choose to remain willingly
ignorant of anything to do with the history involved
and it is refreshing to see someone who has at least
taken a little time to look at what the history of the
subject is and that does indeed make for a wonderful
starting point for a discussion. :)
But first, we should be discussing the subject of my
original post in this thread, especially since this is the
subject that this thread is about and it is in this thread
that you responded. Do you not see that as proper?
After all, to ignore the subject that started the thread
and to then continue to do so, would be, no offense,
disingenuous, don't you think?
I'm not saying it is intentional on your part. I'm just
saying that would be the end result, amen?
When we are finished with what the subject of this thread
is about, then I would be more than happy to discuss the
other subject with you, for which we can start a new thread
with that as the subject. Fair enough?
--
Pastor Dave
The following is part of my auto-rotating
sig file and not part of the message body.
What part of 'THOU SHALT NOT' don't you understand?
Ike E 11/23/9
[snip]
> This thread was not even about "all prophecies",
> but "Christ's prophecies" (see above).
Christ prophesied dualistically, dunderhead...
Mt 17:11-13 [ed]
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come
[future tense], and restore all things; but I say unto you, That Elias is
come already [present tense], and they knew him not, but have done unto him
whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the
Baptist.
Jn 5:25-29 [ed]
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming [future], and now is
[present], when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they
that hear shall live.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to
have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also,
because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming [drop the present, focus on
the future], in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of
life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jn 4:19-24
The [Samaritan] woman saith unto [Jesus], Sir, I perceive that thou art
a prophet: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in
Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.
Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh [future], when
ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of
the Jews.
But the hour cometh [future], and now is [present], when the true
worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father
seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must
worship him in spirit and in truth.
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh [future], yea, is now come [present], that
ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and
yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
...and Christ was using the same technique as the prophets before Him...
Eze 7:1-6
Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Also, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD unto the land of Israel:
An end,
the end
is come upon the four corners of the land.
Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and
will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all
thine abominations. And mine eye shall not spare thee, neither will I have
pity: but I will recompense thy ways upon thee, and thine abominations shall
be in the midst of thee: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Thus saith the Lord GOD:
An evil,
an only evil,
behold,
is come.
An end is come,
the end is come:
it watcheth for thee;
behold, it is come.
But OF COURSE Jesus used the same techniques as the prophets who came before
Him--He TAUGHT it to them...
Rev 19:10d ...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
So much for the Preterists self-derived rule, which, if followed to its
illogical conclusion, would mean that Jesus COULDN'T be the Messiah--OT
prophecies were couched in Old Testament history FIRST.
Ike