Proof of God's Existence
Agnostic...@aol.com
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In a message dated 6/3/2003 2:25:04 AM Hawaiian Standard Time,
ndu...@pop.ctctel.com writes:
TIM TAYLOR
>
> >And there is no evidence for the Christian God, or any other for that
> matter.
NORM
>
> I disagree. The universe is the evidence.
Could you please explain this in more detail for me.
The Agnostic Atheist
Jugito
Someone posted about Farrell Till's article. I checked out the site and
got sucked into Thomas Paine's 2-part pamphlet about Reason (c, 1794).
They constitute a thorough denunciation of the Bible (old and new
testaments).
Paine's purpose was not to denigrate a belief in God, but rather to
destroy the foundation of those who, 200 years ago, asserted everything
in the bible were trun on account of it's being the "Word of God".
I found myself agreeing with most of what he wrote. In his booklets,
Paine simply used the comments within the various books of the bible to
prove any authors to whom they might have been ascribed did not write
them. Since they had anonymous authors, he reasoned, they had no
credentials and were no more constituted "the Word of God" than anything
anyone might write.
He also rightly contended that many of the books in the bible were loaded
with rape and murder that scripture said was charged to God's orders, but
that were completely out of character for a divine being.
Paine pointed to upwards of a hundred inconsistencies, impossibilities,
contradictions, and conundrums that prove unquestionably that the bible
has errors in it.
He did go a bit overboard on some things. He complained that Isaiah was
a jumble of disconnected ramblings that no one could possibly understand,
and that Isaiah was said to exist at two different times. He did not
seem willing to consider that there were two Isaiahs.
And he denounced all miracles, claiming that they were impossible and
that we in the modern world have no reason for being so daffy as to
believe them.
In other words, as with all who start out on a mission of destruction, it
became more important to him to destroy the credibility of everything in
the bible than to ascertain truth.
Strangely enough, Paine wrote his conclusion at the beginning, and that
is that he believes God exists and is a wonderful, loving person. His
point was that the bible paints such a horrid picture of God that it does
more harm than good and people would be better off without it.
Thomas Paine was an exacting taskmaster on the subject of logic and
common sense. He is to be admired because he absolutely refused to
accept any negative concept or consideration about God. He maintained
that the spirit person of God himself indwells man's soul (even though he
did not describe what a soul is).
Personally, I think he was remarkably close in his assessment. The bible
says, in at least 15 places, that the spirit of God is in or with us (see
below references). While this does not constitute PROOF, it does give
truth-seekers a place to start looking for proof of God's existence.
By considering the spirit of God lives within our minds, anyone who
chooses to admit the truth can find final proof there of God's existence.
There are three such internal proofs that utilize man's intellectual,
spiritual, and personality powers:
1. Intellectual capacity to know God - God-consciousness;
2. Spiritual urge to find God - God-seeking
3. Personality craving to be like God - the wholehearted desire to do
the Father's will.
Interestingly enough, these three proofs also form the basis of Jesus'
gospel, as roughed out in the New Testament account of his teachings.
A. Acceptance of the Fatherhood of God
B. Belief in the Brotherhood of Man
C. Faith in the effectiveness of the supreme human desire to be like God
- to do his will.
In other words, since each person can himself prove God exists, people
should then have the common sense to embrace their sonship with God.
This seems to be an exercise in faith because no one other than Jesus has
actually seen God and lived to tell about it. But to the person who has
investigated and discovered the above 1-2-3 proofs, the belief in God is
simply an acknowledgment of personal experience. Because a spirit
fragment of the Father himself indwells our minds, we can have a personal
experience with him that belies the physical senses, thereby making it
unnecessary to see, hear, taste, smell, or touch God.
And after all, why bother? Since the Father's spirit is in each of us,
for what reason must we see, hear, taste, smell, or touch him? Why not
just align our personal wills with his? Then, for all practical
purposes, we can BECOME his expression to this world.
Bob Hurt
Clearwater, FL
BIBLE REFERENCES
Job:32:8: But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the
Almighty giveth them understanding.
Job:32:18: For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.
Isa:63:10-11: But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he
was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Then he
remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he
that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock?
where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
Eze:37:14: And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall
place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have
spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Lu:17:20-21: And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom
of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh
not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for,
behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
M't:10:20: For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father
which speaketh in you.
Joh:17:21-23: That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I
in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that
thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one: : I in them, and thou in me,
that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that
thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Ro:8:9-11: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of
Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead
because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.: But if
the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he
that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies
by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1Co:3:16-17: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the
Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him
shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
2Co:6:16: And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye
are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them,
and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Ga:2:20: I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but
Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by
the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Jas:4:5-7: Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that
dwelleth in us lusteth to envy (yearns jealously)?
1Jo:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in
him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he
hath given us.
1Jo:4:12-15: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another,
God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that
we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the
Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of
God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
Re:21:3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the
tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they
shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their
God.
Norm Du Val
news:0b6d4aaf03ef18463819d89158906c16@TeraNews...
> On Mon, 12 May 2003 11:57:50 GMT, Jugito <jug...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
> >BOB
> >Yes, they are very obvious. They constitute evidence, and they are
> >obvious. Pattern could not exist without a senior mind capable of
> >creating the pattern. If you know any proof to the contrary, please
> >share it.
>
> Gray:
> Another ass-backwards burden-shift attempt. If you know of any
> proof that a "senior mind" put these patterns into the universe,
> please share it. But your assertion is among the emptiest I've ever
> seen. And it suffers from the extremely obvious objection that
> whatever "senior mind" that put those patterns there would have to be
> an even more patterned entity. Where did that entity come from? Can't
> you even assert something less boring in its transparent falseness?
Norm:
Steve, all you're doing is offering more things that are
unexplainable, -paradoxes, etc., and trying to blame Bob for them or make
them his problem. Such things exist in plain science too, not just religion,
and are not explainable there either by the most brilliant minds on the
planet. Where do you get off throwing that stuff at Bob? What about
eternity? When did it start? What about infinity? Where does it end? What
about the alleged Big Bang? What caused that, and what caused whatever
caused that? Who knows? No one, not you, not me, not Bob. It's not Bob's
fault that such mysteries exist. It's just as plausible that there's a mind
behind all this as it is that there's not. The question is, is there a First
Cause or not? What do you feel, Steve? If there's not a First Cause, what
caused everything? What caused the first thing? What ADVANTAGE is there to
believing or thinking that there's nothing? I see none.
Norm.
Tim Taylor
>
>"Steve Gray" <ste...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>news:0b6d4aaf03ef18463819d89158906c16@TeraNews...
>> On Mon, 12 May 2003 11:57:50 GMT, Jugito <jug...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>>
>> >BOB
>> >Yes, they are very obvious. They constitute evidence, and they are
>> >obvious. Pattern could not exist without a senior mind capable of
>> >creating the pattern. If you know any proof to the contrary, please
>> >share it.
>>
>> Gray:
>> Another ass-backwards burden-shift attempt. If you know of any
>> proof that a "senior mind" put these patterns into the universe,
>> please share it. But your assertion is among the emptiest I've ever
>> seen. And it suffers from the extremely obvious objection that
>> whatever "senior mind" that put those patterns there would have to be
>> an even more patterned entity. Where did that entity come from? Can't
>> you even assert something less boring in its transparent falseness?
>
>Norm:
>
> What ADVANTAGE is there to
>believing or thinking that there's nothing? I see none.
Tim Taylor
1. Economic - You do not waste money giving it to parasites in a plate every
week.
2. Time - You do not waste time worshipping something or performing rituals
on behalf of something there is no evidence for.
This would include cutting the foreskin off your penis during a very unsanitary
period in history.
Would you consider not dying an "advantage?"
You have characterized non-belief in a deity as a positive belief. This is
wrong. It is like claiming a bald man has a hair color.
Non-belief is the only rational null hypothesis absent evidence.
And there is no evidence for the Christian God, or any other for that matter.
Finally, the purpose of this list is to discuss Biblical errancy, of which there
are many examples. If you want to discuss the existence of God or the origins of
man, there are other lists.
Tim Simmons
"Jugito" <jug...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:hk32ev853dmdr7i7s...@4ax.com...
> bob hurt
> Someone posted
snip...
> In other words, as with all who start out on a mission of destruction,
Tim S.:
This type of claim is a common Christian attack against the motives of
anyone who exposes the Bible for what it contains. Can you
show/support/give evidence that Paine decided to destroy the Bible PRIOR to
his researching/studying it? Is it not more probable that he came to his
conclusions AFTER reading it?
If you cannot provide any evidence to support your claim that Paine set out
to destroy the Bible without having come to those conclusions after a
thorough study, then please retract your assertion.
Tim S.
snip......
andrew good
> TIM TAYLOR
>
> >
> > >And there is no evidence for the Christian God, or any other for that
> > matter.
>
>
> NORM
>
> >
> > I disagree. The universe is the evidence.
Andrew
How is the universes existence proof of a divine entity? And please avoid
circular logic or paraphrasing the Bible.
Jude
--
!!! I BELIEVE in God. The bible is a valuable book but is NOT inerrant
!!!
"andrew good" <adt...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:i0n1fvo9un7afcosb...@4ax.com...
There is head logic:
The complexity of the universe down to the incredible complexity of
the
smallest unit of matter, as well as the rules by which all matter
follows in
it's own pattern which number in the gazillion (LOVE THAT NUMBER!!!
lol) can
hardly be by some accident. Such complexity CANNOT come from one
accident
after another, brought on by the Big Bang without some Crafter,
Creator,
Iniatator, etc. The odds are beyond our understanding that such an
accident
could lead to all the mind boggling complexities of the universe.
Order
NEVER comes from CHAOS without someone bringing order. Order does not
accidentially start to evolve from chaos.
I believe in the "Big Bang" but it's God that released that force in
the
beginning of our universe. I don't believe in the inerrancy of the
bible
but I value it as a reference from people who wrote about God and
their
experiences. I approach the bible like the phrase, eat the fish and
leave
the bones behind, like we do with any work by other humans. Nobody
gets
everything right. THAT, in and of itself, doesn't disprove the
existence of
God that people believe the bible IS inerrant.
Then there the experience of prayer:
If a person prays to ask God if God really exists and if there is any
truth
to the mission of Jesus, and that God would should you in a way YOU
can
understand, THAT person will KNOW becausee you will be given an
experience
of the Love of God.
LawyerKill
>
>The complexity of the universe down to the incredible complexity of
>the
>smallest unit of matter, as well as the rules by which all matter
>follows in
>it's own pattern which number in the gazillion (LOVE THAT NUMBER!!!
>lol) can
>hardly be by some accident. Such complexity CANNOT come from one
>accident
>after another, brought on by the Big Bang without some Crafter,
>Creator,
>Iniatator, etc. The odds are beyond our understanding that such an
>accident
>could lead to all the mind boggling complexities of the universe.
>Order
>NEVER comes from CHAOS without someone bringing order. Order does not
>accidentially start to evolve from chaos.
LK
Why not? You believe something came about without a creator, your god,
so by
your own logic something complex does not need a creator.
PS Order can come out of chaos, read "Order out of Chaos: Man's New
Dialogue
with Nature" by Ilya Prigogine(Noble prize winner)
Jude
"LawyerKill" <lawye...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:h7gfovkc90s3nig4p...@4ax.com...
Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without somebody
doing
it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
Jude
>Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without somebody doing
>it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
Hey Jude (sorry)
I just wanted to let you know your posts are not going out to the
errancyn list. I am getting a 550 Verification error when emailing
them to erra...@yahoogroups.com (it is just you has this problem).
I *think* its connected with your nunayourbizness domain name. If you
post under a legal domain name i.e. jude-ma...@aol.com this
problem *may* go away (not suggesting you use your real email).
Paul Robson (Moderator).
charles sommers
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote in message
news:hk2iovcc65qb8t941...@4ax.com...
CHUCK
Another approach- IF there were some sort of "creative power"
aside from the universe which created the "vast complexity" you
refer to, it certainly wasn't bumbling, errant, selfish, petulant
meddlesome absurdity invented by the Jews and called "God".
charles sommers
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote in message
news:hk2iovcc65qb8t941...@4ax.com...
>
CHUCK
1. Have you ever seen a snowflake under the microscope? Order from
chaos.
2. Numerous computer models of order from chaos.
3. The Urey- Miller experiment - a few simple compounds became
amino acids on their own.
And there are many other examples as well as very thorough
theoretical explanations of how it happened in the evolution of the
universe (and life). You are using the old "blind watchmaker"
argument
which was debunked years ago.
>
LawyerKill
>> PS Order can come out of chaos, read "Order out of Chaos: Man's New
>> Dialogue
>> with Nature" by Ilya Prigogine(Noble prize winner)
Jude
>Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without somebody
>doing
>it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
LK
Yes, ice crytals, snow flakes and when I was with IBM we grow silicon
crytals(Very ordered) from a disordered molten batch of silicon mixed
with
other chemicals. Again you should read Prigogine book.
Jude
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote in message
Hey, Paul,
Thanks for the info. I have changed my .usa to .com. I'm sending
this to
you to see if it posts correctly.
Thanks again.
Jude
Jude
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote in message
news:jo2iovc26jhc19gb1...@4ax.com...
>
>
Hey, Paul,
Thanks for the info. I have changed my .usa to .com. I'm sending
this to
you to see if it posts correctly.
MOD : No, it didn't :(
Thanks again.
Jude
LawyerKill
>
>Yes, ice crytals, snow flakes and when I was with IBM we grow silicon
>crytals(Very ordered) from a disordered molten batch of silicon mixed
>with
>other chemicals. Again you should read Prigogine book.
LK
PS Look up Crystal Lattice and you will see that it's ordered, and yes
it has
been produced in labs, it's very common
Jude
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.com> wrote in message
news:s4nlovchq2ifdbv1k...@4ax.com...
Okay, Moderator, I'm trying again. This time I took your advice and
did
aol.com.
Jude
Hi Jude, that seems to now be satisfactory. It seems by ISP
(Freeserve) rejects post emailed. from made-up domains.
Paul Robson (Mod)
Earle Jones
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote:
> >Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without somebody doing
> >it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
*
I have seen a volume of apparently randomly scattered water vapor form
tiny droplets, then come together into beautiful six-way symmetrical
figures that we call snowflakes.
But we know it is the intelligent snowflake fairy that does it.
earle
*
Steve Gray
Bible believer:
>Bible believer:
>Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without somebody doing
>it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
GRAY:
Others have mentioned ice (ordered crystal) from water
(formless, unordered). Kitchen experiments I did as a kid showed
colored precipitating out from disordered liquids. In astronomy,
stars (highly ordered) come from big clouds of gas (disordered). In
geology, mica and other crystals come from molten rock (disordered).
The (ordered) layers of the earth (crust, mantle, core) separated out
from a big undifferentiated (disordered) mass. A volcano produces
semi-crystals of obsidian (glass) from completely disordered liquid.
The solar system (highly ordered) condensed from a disordered cloud of
gas. The planets are almost perfect spheres, highly ordered. Their
orbits are perfect ellipses lying almost in the same plane, a highly
ordered arrangement originating in chaotic flows of the disordered
gas. Cerrtain astronomical objects produce highly ordered, extremely
regular pulses of energy, as stable as an atomic clock. When seawater
(a disordered solution) evaporates, the water is separated from the
salt. The salt is left behind as crystals. This system increases order
(using energy input from outside). When slightly acid water drips
through limestone, the undifferentiated rock is separated into solid
rock and space (caves). The resulting system is more ordered than at
the start. The cave becomes more ordered yet in the formation of
speleothegms (cave decorations of many types).
Many of these things have been seen by people directly. Some
are inferred from massive, consistent evidence, whose denial requires
the denier to posit a massive conspiracy. And by the way, none of
these examples contradict the second law of thermodynamics, any more
than the development of life does, and none involve actions by living
things. Incidentally, the outside energy required for all these
orderings comes eventually from the energy of the Big Bang. That's
what drove the stars to exist; the Sun drives the Earth, the Earth
drives many of the above phenomena including life. Life may seem to
violate the second law to an ignorant onlooker, but the second law
applies to closed systems, which the Earth is not because of the
external energy input.
Never make the silly argument that order never appears from
disorder. It's laughable to any scientist. Do your fundie friends a
favor and distribute this little essay to them so they will not be
embarassed in a debate with someone who actually knows something. Of
course, there are thousands of scientists who know far more about this
than I do.
Boyd Blaire
"Jude" <Ju...@nunyabiznez.usa> wrote:
> Have YOU, personally EVER seen order come from chaos without
> somebody doing it or have anyone you known seen it happen?
I observe nature doing so every day (but then, I'm a trained
observer). Order constantly comes from chaos throughout nature. No
gods required; no humans required.
Isn't this swatting OBVIOUS?
I can think of several examples without raising a sweat.
Heliosynthesis creates heavier elements out of lighter elements; creek
beds sort dust, dirt, sand, pebbles, and rocks by size and/or weight;
dust and vapor in the sky condense into clouds and produce rain; rain
in high elevations produce ice crystals..... no gods required.