Biblical/Jesus errors
James Michael McGill
In _Beyond Fundamendalism_ by James
Barr, Barr cites two
such cases which would be sufficient to completely undermine the
fundamentalist claim for both the infallibility of the scriptures as well as
the infallibility of Jesus himself. Both cases involve Jesus making errors
when referring to what are now considered OT scriptures. The first is found
in Mark 2:25-26 when Jesus relates a story from 1 Sam. 21:1-6. The story
involves the high priest Ahimelech. But Jesus incorrectly calls the high
priest Abiathar (who happens to have been Ahimelech's son). The second case
can be found in Matt. 23:35 where Jesus is talking about the death of
Zacharias as related in 2 Chron. 24:20-21. The only problem with Jesus'
recounting of this story is that he mistakenly refers to Zacharias as the
son the Barachias when he is really the son of Jehoida. Personally, I find
these two easily verified biblical errors especially powerful arguments
against not only literalism but also the infallibility of both the
scriptures and Jesus himself.
Michael
Jed
Jed:
There is an error of some sort in the instances you mention, yet you
haven't proved the source of the error. Possibilities include 1. Jesus
made an error when he spoke. 2. The gospel authors made mistakes in
recording their testimony. 3. The text was translated incorrectly at
some point. 4. Due to a misunderstanding of context or facts, an
apparently false statement is really accurate.
--
Jed Shlackman
d009...@dc.seflin.org
jshla...@adelphia.net
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M.McGill
McGill:
So it is not enough to point out errors in the Bible, one must prove the
source also? Even if 1,2, or 3 above is true it is STILL ERRORS. So
therefore:
1. I believe is possible or probable.
2. I believe is possible or probable, but according to the Bible weren't
the gospel authors directed by God?
3.I believe is possible or probable, but do we know that happened in this
case? We can speculate and rationalize what might have or could have
happened, but that doesn't change what the Bible says. It could be number
1 or 2 just as well as number 3, either way it is still errors.
4.I believe is unlikely. But I am open to you or anyone else to show me
how this "apperenly false statement is really accurate."
Michael
helpu
Contradictions are bound to appear in an 'evesdropping' endeavor such as
reading the account of a conversation which does not include us.. ie.
Jesus/pharisees The evesdropper doesnt know the language, the culture, the
setting, the common usage of words or in general the mode of communication.
He is bound to misunderstand either or both speakers and if he so desires
decides 'ahhhah another contradiction'
Are you the first to notice this apparent contradiction ? OPrabably not. Am
I the first to clarify? probably not.
The Pharisees attempted on several occasoins to catch Jesus in error but
they could not. And dont you think that who were so skilled in the law and
so prideful of it that even wore little scrolls on their foreheads would not
have recognized this error in Jesus' words or even after the writing of
those words would have delightfully pointe dout the error? But they went
away frustrated and that didnt stop them they tried again and eventually
attacked his person and eventually put him to death.
Jesus stated that Davids action occured ' in the days of Abiathar the high
priest' but the high priest was actually his father Ahimelech(1 sam 21.1) A
plausible explaination is to render the phrase 'in the passage about
Abiathar the high priest'(see Mk12.26) (I dont think there were chapters and
verses back then)This was a customary way of indicating the section of the
OT where the desired incident could be found ..Abiathar became high priest
shortly after Ahimelech and proved more prominent than he thus justifiying
the use of his name here.
Zechariah 1.1 says '.....came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah the son
Barakiah ..' Ever think that the Zechariah spoken of in 2 Chr, 24 as well as
several others in the OT(try a concordance)is not the Zech. spoken of in Mt
23.35?
To believers
I expect unbelievers to somehow find apparent weak points while ignoring the
incredible cohesiveness including the mountain of already fulfilled prophecy
in the bible.....they cant help it. And believers cant help believing because
of Gods revelation of Himself to us including His Spirit of joy love and grace
within us.
hope this helps
helpu
James Michael McGill wrote in message <36c2ada3...@nntp.idir.net>...
Tim Taylor
>HELPU
> To believers
> I expect unbelievers to somehow find apparent weak points while ignoring the
> incredible cohesiveness including the mountain of already fulfilled prophecy
> in the bible.....
Tim
Name one.
_________________________________________________________
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William Barwell
Tim Taylor <bdt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>HELPU
>> To believers
>
>> I expect unbelievers to somehow find apparent weak points while ignoring the
>> incredible cohesiveness including the mountain of already fulfilled prophecy
>> in the bible.....
>
>Tim
>Name one.
Here once again is my list of failed prophecies.
The false prophecies of Jesus Mini-FAQ
Is the Bible true? How can one tell? One way is to examine
the alledged prophecies of the Bible. This short mini-FAQ
will briefly examine the prophecies of Jesus one can find in
the four gospels. If these prophecies are not true, the Bible
cannot be true and Jesus is not what the gospels proclaim
him to be, the Son of Man, the Son of god, the Messiah.
********************************************
The parallel false prophecies at Jerusulum
Luke 21
Mark 13
Matthew 24
These verses are from a private conversation between Jesus
and his diciples. So one would expect there was no need to
speak figuratively or in parables because there were no possible
hostile listeners in an anonymous crowd. This would have been
Jesus speaking openly to his most trusted disciples.
**********************************************
What Jesus alledgedly discusses.
A list of the signs of what will happen.
Matthew 24:3
.. Tell us when shall these things be? And what shall be the
sign of they coming and when shall be the sign of thy coming and
of the end of the world?
Mark 13:4
Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign
when all these things be fulfilled?
Luke 21:7
And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things
be? And what sign shall come to pass?
***************************************
And when these things (including the end of the world, Matthew 24:3)
shall happen according to the prophecies of Jesus.
Matthew 24:34
Verily, I say unto you, this generation shall not pass til
all these things be fulfilled.
Mark 13:30
Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall
not pass, till all these things be done.
Luke 21:32
Verily, I say unto you, this generation shall not
pass away, til all be fulfilled.
***********************************************
What sort of 'things' are to be done? Before "this generation" passes?
Mark 13:23-27
But take ye heed; behold I have foretold you all things.
But in those days, after the tribulation,the sun shall be
darkened and the moon shall not give her light.
And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that
are in the heaven shall be shaken.
And then they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds
with great power and glory.
And then he shall send his angels, and shall gather the
elect from the four winds, from the utmost part of the earth
to the utmost part of heaven.
Matthew 24:21
For then there will be great tribulation, such as not been seen
since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever
shall be.
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall
the sun be darkened and the moon shall not give her light
and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers
of the heavens shall be shaken.
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven;
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall
see the Son of man coming in clouds of heaven with power
and great glory
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from one end of heaven to the other.
Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun; and in the moon; and
in the stars, and upon the earth distress of nations, with
perplexity; the seas and the waves roaring.
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those
things which are coming on the earth; for the powers of heaven
will be shaken.
And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud
with power and great glory.
And when these things come to pass, look up and lift up you
heads; for your redemption draweth near.
Needless to say, these things did not happen before "this generation"
passed away. All these wild prophecies from Jesus concerning his
arrival in clouds of glory after the sun and moon have failed and
the stars fallen and the heavens being shaken were false.
**************************************************************************
More related false prophecies uttered by Jesus
These all accentuate the fact that Jesus expected these things he
prophecied to happen in that day and age, that people he spoke
to would witness these things. Not some far age long after
that era. This shows again that the verses of Mark 13, Matthew 24,
and Luke 21 were not figurative when he said "This generation".
He meant this generation in the same sense he meant that "some
standing here shall not taste of death". He meant that age, in the
time of those who heard him speak of these things, and it is not
an isolated claim of Jesus.
John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily I say unto you,
Hereafter ye shall see the heaven open and the angels of
god ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.
Luke 9:27
But I will tell you of a truth, there be some standing here
which shall not taste of death, til they see the kingdom
of god.
Matthew 16:27-8
For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of his father
with his angels; and then shall he reward every man according
to his works.
Verily, I say unto you, There shall be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of man
coming in his kingdom.
(Note this verse tells he expected the judgement day to occur
in that day and age, while many of those hearing him lived.)
Matthew 10:22-3
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake:
but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
But when they persecuteth you in this city, flee ye into
another: for I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over
the cities of Israel til the Son of Man be come.
Matthew 26:64
Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said; nevertheless I say
unto you, hereafter shall you see the Son of man sitting
on the right hand of power and coming in clouds of heaven.
Mark 8:38
Whosoever therefore be ashamed of me and my words in this
adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the
Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his
father with Holy angels.
Mark 9:1 And he said to them, verily I say unto you, That there
be some of you that stand here, which shall not taste
of death, til they have seen the kingdom of God come with
power
********************************************
None of these prophecies came to pass as promised. For nearly
1900 years, true believers have played games with words, twisting
words, torturing words to pretend to themselves that these verses
do not mean what they obviously do mean. In the end, this is
what Christianity is, failed prophecies, promises and claims and
desperate and intellectually corrupt word games.
Those who have been intellectually corrupted will play their games,
pointing out the obvious will not make an impression on those
whose minds have been bent from an early age to believe such games
constitute thinking. Many more will never have actually read these
verses, and thought about them, they simply take the word of those
who play games.
This mini-FAQ is aimed towards those who can still think, those
not brainwashed yet into playing word games in service of obviously
untrue claims.
Obviously, such false claims will not get you to heaven, do not
constitute truth, nor make one a better person than one who rejects
such falsehoods. In fact, if one can come to imagine such games
constitute thinking, it makes one dangerous. What happens when one
plays such games with important issues where one needs a clear mind
and a good intellect?
People have been claiming the end of the world for millenia
now and have always been wrong. This will go on for millenia
as long as people read these verses, and play games with them to
avoid acknowledging what Jesus really said was wrong and note
the futility of such games.
Such games are intellectually feeble and futile.
Any religion based on such a feeble foundation is
futile also. Time to look for something better and true.
No more games
William C. Barwell
December 7, 1998
M.McGill
> JILO
<snip>
> The Pharisees attempted on several occasoins to catch Jesus in error but
> they could not. And dont you think that who were so skilled in the law
> and so prideful of it that even wore little scrolls on their foreheads
> would not have recognized this error in Jesus' words or even after the
> writing of those words would have delightfully pointe dout the error? But
> eventually attacked his person and eventually put him to death.
Achilles
Once again the xtian apologist resorts to question begging to resolve the
contradictions in their own holy book. This argument simply assumes the
accuracy of the NT in order to counter accusations of inaccuracy in the NT.
The supposed "facts" which the writer refers to are known only through the
assertions of the NT. Since the accuracy of the NT is the question at hand,
arguments based on the assumption that the NT is correct and accurate are
irrelevant.
/Achilles
Random thought for the moment:
A penny saved is ridiculous.
M.McGill
> JILO
> The Pharisees attempted on several occasoins to catch Jesus in error but
> they could not. And dont you think that who were so skilled in the law and
> so prideful of it that even wore little scrolls on their foreheads would not
> have recognized this error in Jesus' words or even after the writing of
> those words would have delightfully pointe dout the error? But they went
> away frustrated and that didnt stop them they tried again and eventually
> attacked his person and eventually put him to death.
DB
This answer, of course, begs the question of the historical accuracy of the
NT documents. Was it really the Pharisees who were 'frustrated', or was it
the writer of the gospel who, in an attempt to paint Jesus as sophically
superior to the Pharisees, could not even come up with a consistent story?
JILO
> I expect unbelievers to somehow find apparent weak points while ignoring the
> incredible cohesiveness including the mountain of already fulfilled prophecy
> in the bible.....they cant help it. And believers cant help believing because
> of Gods revelation of Himself to us including His Spirit of joy love and grace
> within us.
> hope this helps
DB
Yeah, thanks. I've always believed that stuff about the 'cohesiveness' and
the 'mountain of fulfilled prophecy' too. A few weeks of lurking on this
list, not to mention some serious study elsewhere and on the 'net, have
shown me that this 'cohesiveness' is pretty shaky, and the 'mountain' is
more like the proverbial molehill. The books that make up the bible, after
all, were hand picked by men, so any consistency you might see doesn't have
to be the result of a divine overseer.
I challenge you to produce a definite example of a fulfilled prophecy that
doesn't rely on a meaning not intended by the original writer, a post hoc
application, a quoted 'scripture' that can't even be found in the OT, or
more examples of question begging.
I know we've just recently been through these threads, but, IMHO these are
two of the top examples of biblical rhetoric I've been exposed to. Every
'preacher' that has popped up on this list has spouted then in one form or
another, usually early on before getting an idea of the flames that this
kind of question begging will attract.
M.McGill
JILO
(snip)
The Pharisees attempted on several occasoins to catch Jesus in error but
they could not. And dont you think that who were so skilled in the law and
so prideful of it that even wore little scrolls on their foreheads would not
have recognized this error in Jesus' words or even after the writing of
those words would have delightfully pointe dout the error? But they went
away frustrated and that didnt stop them they tried again and eventually
attacked his person and eventually put him to death.
Dave
Do you really think if a gospel writer had admitted an instance where the
scribes or Pharasees had tripped Jesus up in a conversation he would have been
added to the NT cannon? Do you think any devoted follower of Jesus, in sifting
through the various accounts before writing his book would have admitted they
nailed him even if they did? You are assuming the accuracy of the account
here. If Matthew and Luke omitted the mention of Abithar how do you know that
Mark did not omit the Jews nailing Jesus on his error? Of course it is
possible that Mark was unaware of who the high priest was when he wrote this
account and didn't bother to check it out. If his source said Jesus said such
and such he belived it and wrote it down. Matthew and Luke knew better.
JILO
Jesus stated that Davids action occured ' in the days of Abiathar the high
priest' but the high priest was actually his father Ahimelech(1 sam 21.1) A
plausible explaination is to render the phrase 'in the passage about
Abiathar the high priest'(see Mk12.26)
DAVE
Please supply some evidence that this is a "plausible" explanation. I could
argue that the greek phrase found in Mark 2:26 could "plausibly" be rendered
"before Abithar became high priest" but without citing some support for that
claim it is worthless. I know there are scholars for about any position, so
you may have one. I just want to know who he is, where he said it and his
reason for saying it. A book title, page number and supporting reasons would
be helpful.
Thanks.
JILO
(I dont think there were chapters and
verses back then)This was a customary way of indicating the section of the
OT where the desired incident could be found .
DAVE
Again, provide some evidence that this was a "customary" way of indicating
the section of the OT where the story was to be found. Find some examples
where this "customary" usage is evident. I hope your scholar has some
examples. Remember, the greek word is "epi" which literally meant "upon", and
it was used in the genitive of person. Find all examples of "epi" used in the
genitive of person and do a word search in some lexicons and greek word study
books. If it was "customary" you will find some examples from the literature
of that time.
JILO
..Abiathar became high priest
shortly after Ahimelech and proved more prominent than he thus justifiying
the use of his name here.
Dave
Why? Because you say so? Good grief, Jilo, how could you distinguish a
false prophet from a true prophet or a true statement from a false statement
with logic like that? If I claimed to be God incarnate and I said Bill Clinton
was president when Desert Storm broke out (confusing it with Desert Fox) would
that not give you at least a clue something was amiss? Of course my devoted
followers could claim, "Well, Bill Clinton was more prominent, so he was
justified inusing his name in that instance"...
M.McGill
Hello again, JILO!
>JILO
--snipped much--
>>To believers
>
>I expect unbelievers to somehow find apparent weak points while ignoring the
>incredible cohesiveness including the mountain of already fulfilled prophecy
>in the bible.....they cant help it. And believers cant help believing because
>of Gods revelation of Himself to us including His Spirit of joy love and grace
>within us.
CREA
What "mountains of already fulfilled prophecy" are you referring to? If
your case is as strong as you make it out to be, would you be kind enough to
provide us with a (admittedly trivial from your POV) "walk-through" of the
prophecies in Haggai, providing evidence/documentation that they did indeed
occur as predicted?
KEN WALTERS
William Barwell wrote in message <36e4853a....@nntp.idir.net>...
<snip>
>This mini-FAQ is aimed towards those who can still think, those
>not brainwashed yet into playing word games in service of obviously
>untrue claims.
>
>Obviously, such false claims will not get you to heaven, do not
>constitute truth, nor make one a better person than one who rejects
>such falsehoods. In fact, if one can come to imagine such games
>constitute thinking, it makes one dangerous. What happens when one
>plays such games with important issues where one needs a clear mind
>and a good intellect?
>People have been claiming the end of the world for millenia
>now and have always been wrong. This will go on for millenia
>as long as people read these verses, and play games with them to
>avoid acknowledging what Jesus really said was wrong and note
>the futility of such games.
>
>Such games are intellectually feeble and futile.
>Any religion based on such a feeble foundation is
>futile also. Time to look for something better and true.
>No more games
>
>William C. Barwell
>December 7, 1998
KEN
A finite mind trying to reason out infinite things.You'll never be able to
do it.You totally misunderstand the scriptures you are trying to tear down
and I do know you probally were taught these things in some school.I have
seen them before. You are totally confused as to which generation Jesus was
talking about.The first few words of scripture are,"in the beginning God,"God
did not begin trying to prove his existence nor has he ever,He is a self
evident fact that the blind spritually cannot see.Look around you my
friends,look at what God has and is doing.But you still will not see until you
fall on your face and cry out in full surender to this mighty God and allow
him to make himself manifest to you.
You won't find him with your intelect but with your surrendered
will.Ps.51;17b.a broken and a contrite heart,O God,thou wilt not despise.
If that day never comes for you there will be another time God will make
himself manifest to all,Philippians 2,10 and 11."That at the name of Jesus
every knee should bow,of things in heaven,and things in earth,and things
under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is
lord,to the glory of God the Father. My prayer is that you will come to know
God and His Blessed Son before it is too late.I really think that down deep
inside you want to know you are one of God's.
ken...@c-gate.net
Auti...@aol.com
A finite mind trying to reason out infinite things.You'll never be able to
do it.
Paul Robson:
So lets not try, eh, lets just accept it blindly ?
Ken:
You totally misunderstand the scriptures you are trying to tear down
Paul Robson:
Why ? Where ?
Ken:
and I do know you probally were taught these things in some school.
Paul Robson:
No, no school teaches this sort of stuff. You, of course, reasoned it
out logically and didn't simply believe it because you were repeatedly
told it as a child. My school did teach me to spell words like "probably"
though.
Ken:
I have seen them before. You are totally confused as to which
generation Jesus was talking about.
Paul Robson:
Oh well, we'll all go home then .... which generation was he talking
about ? Actually, you're demonstrating William Barwell's point
perfectly "people read these verses, and play games with them to
avoid acknowledging what Jesus really said was wrong"
Ken:
The first few words of scripture are,"in the beginning God, God
did not begin trying to prove his existence nor has he ever.
He is a self evident fact that the blind spritually cannot see.
Paul Robson:
Any chance of explaining this "self evident fact" ? Why is it a
"self evident fact" ? Or do you just call non-believers "spiritually
blind" because you have no argument ?
Ken:
Look around you my friends,look at what God has and is doing.
Paul Robson:
Nope, can't see anything. What can you see God doing ?
Ken:
But you still will not see until you fall on your face and cry out in
full surender to this mighty God and allow him to make himself
manifest to you.
Paul Robson:
Tried it ; it doesn't work. Oh mighty God, I surrender to you,
make yourself manifest....
Do you know why Christians want people to do this ? It creates
a thing called "cognitive dissonance" basically if you get people
to make public declarations of religion then there's internal
psychological pressure to self-convert to (effectively) make your
position externally consistent.
Are you going to stand in your Church and throw yourself on Allah's
mercy to make him manifest ? Thought not.
Ken:
You won't find him with your intelect but with your surrendered
will.
Paul Robson:
Oh , wonderful : Here we have the core of Christianity. Don't use your
brain just give in mentally and then it all makes sense. Switch your
brain off and it's all clearly true.
Ken:
[snip "Every tongue shall confess" Bible quotes]
My prayer is that you will come to know God and His Blessed Son
before it is too late.
Paul Robson:
Oh, a threat of hell... how original ; how Christian.
Ken:
I really think that down deep inside you want to know you are one
of God's.
Paul Robson:
Nope.
William Barwell
KEN WALTERS <ken...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>William Barwell wrote in message <36e4853a....@nntp.idir.net>...
><snip>
>>not brainwashed yet into playing word games in service of obviously
>>untrue claims.
>>
>>Obviously, such false claims will not get you to heaven, do not
>>constitute truth, nor make one a better person than one who rejects
>>such falsehoods. In fact, if one can come to imagine such games
>>constitute thinking, it makes one dangerous. What happens when one
>>plays such games with important issues where one needs a clear mind
>>and a good intellect?
*********************** DELETED *********************
>KEN
>A finite mind trying to reason out infinite things.
Pope Charles.
A finite mind showing a finite number of the finite prophecies of the 4
gospels fail, and are untrue. Jesus is not what you think he was.
It is not a really hard thing to do, you don't have to be a genius or have
an infinite mind.
KEN
>You'll never be able to do it.
Pope Charles
I did already. Those who stood before him died, tasted of death before
Jesus came back with clouds of glory to gather the nations, sort the sheep
from the goats, to reward all men according to their deeds, in the times
of "This generation", as prophecied, as promised.
A finite set of false prophesies in a finite little set of little tall
tales we call the gospels, a finite little superstition of a religion,
finite, futile, wrong.
Finite, wrong and silly.
KEN
>You totally misunderstand the scriptures you are trying to tear down
Pope Charles
I understand them, that they are false, that they did not happen as
promised. What more is there to add?
Did he return in clouds of glory "in this generation" within teh lifetimes
of "those standing" here as promised? No. Did he reward all men
according to their deeds, as promised in Matthew 16:27-8, or sort
out the sheep from teh goats and tell the goats to depart to everlasting
torment as promised in Matthew 25:31-41?
No. They are false prophecies. Jesus is dead an gone, he isn't coming
back. What more is there to understand?
Shall I post again, my list of promises of miracle working abilities
promised by Jesus that also fail?
For example John 14:12-4? These promises fail, Jesus's prophecies are
false, the gospels contradict each other, hey, what's left?
Labelling this crap as infinite and thus not understandable is nonsense.
KEN
>and I do know you probally were taught these things in some school.I have
>seen them before. You are totally confused as to which generation Jesus was
>talking about.
Pope Charles
No, that is why I quoted the verses I did so carefully.
When is "this generation"? It means just that.
The generation of the times of Jesus when he alledgedly spoke
of his prophecies of things to come. This is in Matthew, Mark and
Luke. See Matthew 16:27-9. This was all to happen within the lifetimes
of most of those who heard him speak, Jesus was explicit about this,
"Some of those standing here shall not taste of death".
They would see all men rewarded according to there works. Now back to
Matthew 24:34 and "this generation". See how Matthew 24 continues on into
matthew 25? What will happen in this generation, see Matthew 25:31-41,
which is the same promise as Matthew 16, he will return and reward men for
there acts. "This generation" and "Some standing here" are refering to
the same promise of judgment day. Some standing here shall not taste of
death = "this generation", and both refer to judgement day.
These few verses tie it all together to mean judgement day was to occuer,
then in that day, not 2000 years later. Only fanatics with
agendas will try to twist words and abandon logic to pretend otherwise.
Jesus was wrong.
Just like he was wrong in John 14 that he would be able give us "if ye
shall ask anything in my name I will do it" or other similar promises.
KEN
>The first few words of scripture are,"in the beginning God,"God
>did not begin trying to prove his existence nor has he ever,He is a self
>evident fact that the blind spritually cannot see.Look around you my
>friends,look at what God has and is doing.But you still will not see until you
>fall on your face and cry out in full surender to this mighty God and allow
>him to make himself manifest to you.
Pope Charles
Pointless, irrelevant, preaching and ranting....
What is god doing? He does not exist.
And the prophecies of jesus are still wrong.
This is no counter argument, just emotional venting, an attempt
to appeal to our emotions, not address the issue.
You lose.
KEN
>You won't find him with your intelect but with your surrendered
>will.
Pope Charles
Well if you have to destroy your intellect and just believe,
then sorry, I already did that with J.R. "Bob" Dobbs,
High Epopt of the mighty and majestic Church of the SubGenius.
And boy, did he chew out my ass for abandoning my intellect.
Hey, I have an idea, why don't you surrender your will to Allah?
And your intellect too.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope Of Houston
Slack!
Farrell Till
>KEN
>A finite mind trying to reason out infinite things.You'll never be able to
>do it.You totally misunderstand the scriptures you are trying to tear down
>and I do know you probally were taught these things in some school.I have
>seen them before. You are totally confused as to which generation Jesus was
>talking about.The first few words of scripture are,"in the beginning God,"God
>did not begin trying to prove his existence nor has he ever,He is a self
>evident fact that the blind spritually cannot see.Look around you my
>friends,look at what God has and is doing.But you still will not see until you
>fall on your face and cry out in full surender to this mighty God and allow
>him to make himself manifest to you.
>You won't find him with your intelect but with your surrendered
>will.Ps.51;17b.a broken and a contrite heart,O God,thou wilt not despise.
>If that day never comes for you there will be another time God will make
>himself manifest to all,Philippians 2,10 and 11."That at the name of Jesus
>every knee should bow,of things in heaven,and things in earth,and things
>under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is
>lord,to the glory of God the Father. My prayer is that you will come to know
>God and His Blessed Son before it is too late.I really think that down deep
>inside you want to know you are one of God's.
TILL
This list was set up to discuss the issue of biblical inerrancy. I wonder
if Ken has any kind of argument to present that doesn't beg the question of
inerrancy throughout by quoting passages from the very book whose inerrancy
is being questioned?
By the way, Ken, I attended two Bible colleges and graduated from one of
them. I assure you that I was not taught at these schools to doubt the
Bible. I was taught that it is unquestionably the inspired, inerrant word
of God. What I post on this NG is what I learned through personal studies
of the Bible after I graduated.
Now do you have any kind of logical argument to present on behalf of the
Bible that doesn't beg the question of its divine origin? I didn't think
you did.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jft...@midwest.net