WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF JESUS *DID* RETURN?
me
As an sceptic, scientific, rationalist agnostic, Im curious as to what the
reactions would be if Jesus DID reappear. What would be the
church's/Pope's reaction? How would we *know* it was him?
Im not after protracted quotes from the bible here...I really interested to
know how Christians would know the alleged son of God and would they be able
to test out their theories that it *was* him? How could we rule out fakers
and charlatans? And if we couldn't, how do we know we havent already
rejected him as a loon/crank/nutter?
You notice that I say "agnostic". That is because I dont rule out the
existence of a Supreme Being...I just want "proof". Demonstrable, scientific
proof. Not as Carl Sagan would have said, "the dragon in my garage"-type
theories ie unfalisfiable and subjective. A good start would be the
funadmental acknowledgement from religionists that anything is poosible -
that the Bible is a series of very nice, if prosaic myths, passed down and
added to for hundreds of years...morally still very valid, with a lot to
teach us but not the absolute truth, merely a moral "guidebook" and on
occasion a very good and riveting book of stories, but alas, as one of the
great works of fiction... which one cannot take as inerrant. I'd also like
to see an absolute and unconditional acceptance of the theory of evolution
before any progress can begin, instead of teaching impressionable kids a
3000 year old myth.
Serious non-bibliophiles answers only please.
RL
William Barwell
>Apologies for a slightly off list question....
>
>
>As an sceptic, scientific, rationalist agnostic, Im curious as to what the
>reactions would be if Jesus DID reappear. What would be the
>church's/Pope's reaction? How would we *know* it was him?
>
Pope Charles
Hrumpph.
What would be the reaction if the Easter Bunny came to visit?
One can make up silly questions, but that is all they are.
Silly questions.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!
Silva
>As an sceptic, scientific, rationalist agnostic, Im curious as to what the
>reactions would be if Jesus DID reappear. What would be the
>church's/Pope's reaction? How would we *know* it was him?
>
>Im not after protracted quotes from the bible here...I really interested to
>know how Christians would know the alleged son of God and would they be
able
>to test out their theories that it *was* him? How could we rule out fakers
>and charlatans? And if we couldn't, how do we know we havent already
>rejected him as a loon/crank/nutter?
I would like to answer that but, I do believe that it is impossible to
reply that question without a bible quote. What other piece literature (if
you think of the bible as such) makes the claim that Christ will return? I
would say in reply to your question, read the book of Revelations. There, i
did not quote the bible.
>You notice that I say "agnostic". That is because I dont rule out the
>existence of a Supreme Being...I just want "proof". Demonstrable,
scientific
>proof. Not as Carl Sagan would have said, "the dragon in my garage"-type
>theories ie unfalisfiable and subjective. A good start would be the
>funadmental acknowledgement from religionists that anything is poosible -
>that the Bible is a series of very nice,
--ep ep ep, stop there. define what you mean by a Supreme Being. I just want
to know whether you think of a Supreme Bieng as an infinite Being? Really
powerful but with superhuman limitations....hope you understand my question.
>
>Serious non-bibliophiles answers only please.
I dont consider myself a bibliophile....I just think it is God's word. and
Oh yeah, I am serious.
me
>I would like to answer that but, I do believe that it is impossible to
>reply that question without a bible quote.
No no no. It is simply not. It is like the prosecution quoting a
criminal's statment of innocence in court and saying "alright then...he says
he's innocent...well he must be." The whole POINT of the question is to see
if we can solve this dilemma WITHOUT resorting to the Bible. I guess in
simple terms, what Im asking is practically, how would Christians, jews,
Muslims *respond* to that situation. How would we *know*?
> What other piece literature (if
> you think of the bible as such) makes the claim that Christ will
>return?
Er...the Talmud, the Koran, Sumerian texts, Balyonian cuineiform
tablets...they just call Jesus something different.
>would say in reply to your question, read the book of Revelations.
Uh? It was written 700 years ago! What possible insight could the bible
written all that time ago have for 1999? Ergot, Im saying I note the
*conspicuous* lack of modern technology in the bible..I dont remember
reading "And Yea did Moses go up to the Mount of Olives and there on his
laptop did he write the Ten Commandaments". Nope. I dont recall reading that
in dreary Sunday school classes.
>There, I did not quote the bible.
How generous of you...considering... :-)
>--ep ep ep, stop there. define what you mean by a Supreme Being. I just want
>to know whether you think of a Supreme Bieng as an infinite Being? Really
>powerful but with superhuman limitations....hope you understand my
>question.
Possibly. Who knows? maybe God is simply pure energy. Maybe its a more
advanced civilisation who genetically engineered us? Maybe its Larry
Sanders.
What I mean is what it says. Something that is beyong human comprehension -
a being that is by definition greater than the sum of humanity. Something
capable of creating us and the Universe. Perhaps it is just pure physical
energy. Perhaps its a purple frog...why knows and who will ever know? God is
unknowable for all rational puposes.
>I dont consider myself a bibliophile....I just think it is God's word. and
> Oh yeah, I am serious.
What, so God wrote it? On a laptop? If that were the case it would be full
of typos. And the universe would already have crashed. Especially if its
running Windows 95. Did he create a backup?
Ronnie
me
William Barwell wrote in message
>Hrumpph.
>
>What would be the reaction if the Easter Bunny came to visit?
>One can make up silly questions, but that is all they are.
>Silly questions.
What would be the reaction if you stated "IMHO"! If the question is not
posed is it is not PUT. If you think about it for MORE than five seconds,
you would realise as the CENTRAL aspiration if Christianity, the return of
the Messiah is er...kinda important (duh!) to religionists and atheists
alike. If he DOES show up, all us agnostics/atheists have been dickheads
for all those years. All the other religions would be MIGHTILY pissed
off. The world turned upside down. That kinda stuff.
Therefore, I am interested to see, if you have an open mind on the subject,
what would Christianity and Atheisms practical response be should the
Messiah reappear in earthly form. How would we know it was armageddon? The
bible is not a reliable source...as someone funnier than I once said, "I
thought were a syndicalist colelctive...strange women in ponds, lieing
around distributing swords is no basis for a system of government...." The
bible does not it indicate a modern response. For isnstance, would he do
the celebrity chat shows? Would we see him on Jerry Springer? An honest
guess? He's probably more an Oprah man. I can see the caption on the
cutaway, "Jesus, Son Of God..Returned Messiah......Mother had Immculate
Conception" Mind you, if a fight broke out between him and the other guests,
he' s got a bit of an advantage hasnt he?
>Pope Charles
>SubGenius Pope of Houston
You said it. Ever heard of Texas Atheists and FreeThinkers? :-)
>Slack!
Slack what?
Ronnie
G. R. Gaudreau
>Apologies for a slightly off list question....
>reactions would be if Jesus DID reappear. What would be the
>church's/Pope's reaction? How would we *know* it was him?
[grgaud]
Jesus, if he ever existed, had his chance in the first century and he
blew it. He promised, according to the gospel writers, that he'd
return within their generation. History is a witness that this
so-called promise has failed, so the question of his return is moot.
Cheers,
G. R. Gaudreau
http://members.xoom.com/grgaud/
Silva
>Er...the Talmud, the Koran, Sumerian texts, Balyonian cuineiform
>tablets...they just call Jesus something different.
>
[Silva]
Then your argument hinges on the fact that we all accept that the Koran,
Talmud e.t.c. Playing along, I will take the Koran as an example (cuz that
is the only literature of the above i am familiar with) Jesus was down
played to simply being an ordinary man, a prophet, the prophet was killed
because the Jews did not want to listen to what he had to say.....(this I
believe is what the Koran states. correct me if I am wrong). If this is
true, then how can an ordinary man return. I will restate my previous
statement... your argment is not logical, because you want information about
a topic, but you want to ignore the source of the information. ( I would
compare this to someone looking for information on why Micheal Jordan is
such a recognized figure in todays society, but claiming that all
information from the NBA or related sports organizations because....they are
unreliable). I dont think your argument is highly illogical. If you want
information about the PERSON Jesus, go to where Jesus is mentioned.
>>would say in reply to your question, read the book of Revelations.
>
>Uh? It was written 700 years ago! What possible insight could the bible
>written all that time ago have for 1999?
[Silva]
Uh...how old are the Talmud, the Koran, Sumerian texts, Balyonian cuineiform
tablets? If the age of the bible disqualifies it from being applicable to
life today, then why bring up the above texts? If you want me to give you
insight that YOU would find relative to life in the 21st century, I
apologise right now, because I am not qualified, besides I might have a
little problem getting my 'scriptures' published. And where did you get the
info on the age of the bible?
>>--ep ep ep, stop there. define what you mean by a Supreme Being. I just
want
>>to know whether you think of a Supreme Bieng as an infinite Being? Really
>>powerful but with superhuman limitations....hope you understand my
>>question.
>
>Possibly. Who knows? maybe God is simply pure energy. Maybe its a more
>advanced civilisation who genetically engineered us? Maybe its Larry
>Sanders.
[Silva]
Larry Sanders? why him? :-)
>What I mean is what it says. Something that is beyong human comprehension -
>a being that is by definition greater than the sum of humanity. Something
>capable of creating us and the Universe. Perhaps it is just pure physical
>energy. Perhaps its a purple frog...why knows and who will ever know? God
is
>unknowable for all rational puposes.
[Silva]
I am not sure why we are discussing this? If u believe god is simply a more
advanced race, wait about 100 years and hop on whatever space vehicles are
available, and cruise around looking unknown lifeforms....however for now, I
would assume that we do not have enough information on this hypothetical
"race of gods." Seriously though, I asked about your beliefs about the
Supreme Being, so that I could get an understanding of where you are
"comming from."
hopefully i addressed the points you were interested in...
>What, so God wrote it? On a laptop? If that were the case it would be full
>of typos. And the universe would already have crashed. Especially if its
>running Windows 95. Did he create a backup?
PS. If reality is based on MS OSes, I know why the sky is blue..... (it is
one big general program fault :-) )
later
Silva.
William Barwell
>
>William Barwell wrote in message
>
>>Hrumpph.
>>
>>What would be the reaction if the Easter Bunny came to visit?
>>One can make up silly questions, but that is all they are.
>>Silly questions.
>
>What would be the reaction if you stated "IMHO"! If the question is not
>posed is it is not PUT. If you think about it for MORE than five seconds,
>you would realise as the CENTRAL aspiration if Christianity, the return of
>the Messiah is er...kinda important (duh!) to religionists and atheists
>alike. If he DOES show up, all us agnostics/atheists have been dickheads
>for all those years.
Jesus has all the liklihood of showing up as the Easter Bunny has
of showing up at your home for tea.
That is, none.
Jesus is dead and gone and he ain't coming back.
He is in Valhalla, drinking rum with Odin, Zeus, and Mithra.
He is having too much quality time to come back to monkey-boy
land again.
So the question is empty and useless.
Go to alt.religion.islam and ask them when the Mahdi will come.
That will keep you occupied.
Pope Charles
SubGenius Pope of Houston
Slack!
Farrell Till
>
UNATTRIBUTED QUOTATION
>>Er...the Talmud, the Koran, Sumerian texts, Balyonian cuineiform
>>tablets...they just call Jesus something different.
>>
>[Silva]
>
>Then your argument hinges on the fact that we all accept that the Koran,
>Talmud e.t.c. Playing along, I will take the Koran as an example (cuz that
>is the only literature of the above i am familiar with) Jesus was down
>played to simply being an ordinary man, a prophet, the prophet was killed
>because the Jews did not want to listen to what he had to say.....(this I
>believe is what the Koran states. correct me if I am wrong). If this is
>true, then how can an ordinary man return.
TILL
But, Silva, can't you see that you are begging the question of whether Jesus
will return? What makes you think that he will return? Well, the Bible
tells you that he will, and so you assume that this is true. Hence, you are
begging the question of biblical accuracy, but biblical accuracy is the very
issue that we are supposed to be debating on this group, so you want us to
let you assume the truth of your position on the issue at stake. Why don't
you let me assume the truth of my position on this issue? You aren't
willing to do that, are you? Well, neither am I willing to let you assume
the truth of yours. You'll have to prove it, but I haven't seen anything
from you yet that even remotely resembles proof that your position on the
Bible is true.
SILVA
> I will restate my previous
>statement... your argment is not logical, because you want information about
>a topic, but you want to ignore the source of the information.
TILL
Well, a Mormon could say the same thing about any character who is mentioned
only in the book of Mormon. You, of course, have enough sense (at least in
this matter) to recognize that the Book of Mormon is a very questionable
source of information, and so you would insist on information from other
sources to corroborate what the Book of Mormon says. That is all we are
doing here in the case of Jesus.
SILVA
( I would
>compare this to someone looking for information on why Micheal Jordan is
>such a recognized figure in todays society, but claiming that all
>information from the NBA or related sports organizations because....they are
>unreliable). I dont think your argument is highly illogical. If you want
>information about the PERSON Jesus, go to where Jesus is mentioned.
>
TILL
Your analogy is about as false as any that I could imagine. If someone
should question the reliability of NBA records about Michael Jordan, those
records could be corroborated by numerous other sources, i.e., newspapers,
magazines, video tapes, contemporary witnesses, etc. The problem for your
position on Jesus is that you are claiming the historicity of a person whose
impression left on his times should have far exceeded the impression Jordan
has left on ours (if Jesus was an actual historical person), but for some
reason the records of the time were strangely silent about this man. We're
just asking you to give a reasonable explanation for why a man who walked on
water, changed water into wine, healed the blind and lame, resurrected the
dead, etc., etc., etc. didn't receive any attention at all from contemporary
sources.
Your posting was hard to follow, because you did not label the comments of
those you were replying to. If you follow the format of my reply to you,
that would help readers to understand who is saying what.
Farrell Till
Skepticism, Inc.
jft...@midwest.net
M.Z. Beg
snipped
>
>>Er...the Talmud, the Koran, Sumerian texts, Balyonian cuineiform
>>tablets...they just call Jesus something different.
>>
>[Silva]
snipped
> Jesus was down
>played to simply being an ordinary man, a prophet, the prophet was killed
>because the Jews did not want to listen to what he had to say.....(this I
>believe is what the Koran states. correct me if I am wrong). If this is
>true,
>
>Silva.
You stand to be corrected. Koran does not state the Jesus was killed
by the Jews or any other, I quote below what Koran states :
156 : That they (Jews) rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary
A grave false charge;
157 : They said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary,
The Messenger of Allah"; - But they killed him not, Nor crucified him.
Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. And those who differ
Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge. But only
conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not; -
158 : Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in
Power. Wise; - And there is none Of the People of the Book But must
believe in Him Before his death, And on the Day of Judgement He will
be a witness Against them; - S:4; 156-158
Silva
>>[Silva]
>
>snipped
>
>> Jesus was down
>>played to simply being an ordinary man, a prophet, the prophet was killed
>>because the Jews did not want to listen to what he had to say.....(this I
>>believe is what the Koran states. correct me if I am wrong). If this is
>>true,
[M.Z. Beg]
>You stand to be corrected. Koran does not state the Jesus was killed
>by the Jews or any other, I quote below what Koran states :
>157 : They said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary,
>The Messenger of Allah"; - But they killed him not, Nor crucified him.
>Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. And those who differ
>Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge. But only
>conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not; -
>
>158 : Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in
>Power. Wise; - And there is none Of the People of the Book But must
>believe in Him Before his death, And on the Day of Judgement He will
>be a witness Against them; - S:4; 156-158
[Silva]
I stand corrected. I have one question though...In the last sentence of
your quote, It is stated that on the day of judgement, He will be a witness
against them. It would seem that the Koran makes no mention of the return of
Christ. Once again let me know if I am wrong.
Silva
[TILL]
so you want us to
>let you assume the truth of your position on the issue at stake. Why don't
>you let me assume the truth of my position on this issue? You aren't
>willing to do that, are you? Well, neither am I willing to let you assume
>the truth of yours. You'll have to prove it, but I haven't seen anything
>from you yet that even remotely resembles proof that your position on the
>Bible is true.
[SILVA]
My reply to you, TILL would be to read my post in the HELP ME thread.....the
one I sent on 2/20. I personally dont mind if you assume your position to be
the truth, I would simply ask you to prove your claims.
>TILL
>Well, a Mormon could say the same thing about any character who is
mentioned
>only in the book of Mormon. You, of course, have enough sense (at least in
>this matter) to recognize that the Book of Mormon is a very questionable
>source of information, and so you would insist on information from other
>sources to corroborate what the Book of Mormon says. That is all we are
>doing here in the case of Jesus.
[Silva]
I am not sure i follow your Mormon analogy, i do not see how it
relates...you are getting of the subject. The original question was, "how
would we recognise Jesus IF he were to return." However the author of the
question wants the proof, or rather the answer, to come from a non-biblical
source.
G.R. Gaudreau
>[M.Z. Beg]
<snip>
>>158 : Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in
>>Power. Wise; - And there is none Of the People of the Book But must
>>believe in Him Before his death, And on the Day of Judgement He will
>>be a witness Against them; - S:4; 156-158
>[Silva]
>I stand corrected. I have one question though...In the last sentence of
>your quote, It is stated that on the day of judgement, He will be a witness
>against them. It would seem that the Koran makes no mention of the return of
>Christ. Once again let me know if I am wrong.
[grgaud]
The text doesn't say anything about a return of Jesus, it says he will
be present on the day of judgment to witness against them.
Cheers,
Farrell Till
>
>
>[TILL]
>so you want us to
>>let you assume the truth of your position on the issue at stake. Why don't
>>you let me assume the truth of my position on this issue? You aren't
>>willing to do that, are you? Well, neither am I willing to let you assume
>>the truth of yours. You'll have to prove it, but I haven't seen anything
>>from you yet that even remotely resembles proof that your position on the
>>Bible is true.
>
>
>[SILVA]
>My reply to you, TILL would be to read my post in the HELP ME thread.....the
>one I sent on 2/20. I personally dont mind if you assume your position to be
>the truth, I would simply ask you to prove your claims.
>
TILL
That's what we're asking you to do, so when can we expect you to begin at
least to try to prove your claim of biblical inerrancy rather than just
constantly assume it, as you have been doing so far?
>>TILL
>>Well, a Mormon could say the same thing about any character who is
>mentioned
>>only in the book of Mormon. You, of course, have enough sense (at least in
>>this matter) to recognize that the Book of Mormon is a very questionable
>>source of information, and so you would insist on information from other
>>sources to corroborate what the Book of Mormon says. That is all we are
>>doing here in the case of Jesus.
>
>[Silva]
>
>I am not sure i follow your Mormon analogy, i do not see how it
>relates...you are getting of the subject. The original question was, "how
>would we recognise Jesus IF he were to return." However the author of the
>question wants the proof, or rather the answer, to come from a non-biblical
>source.
>
TILL
You don't follow the analogy? Maybe if you read again what you said, you
can see the appropriateness of my analogy.
[Silva]
> I will restate my previous
>statement... your argment is not logical, because you want information about
>a topic, but you want to ignore the source of the information.
So your argument seems to be that the one who asked the original question
was being unreasonable because he wanted corroboration from a nonbiblical
source. You said that his "argment [sic] is not logical," because he wants
to "ignore the source of the information." Since the Book of Mormon is the
only source of certain information in Mormon theology, you, by your own
argument, would be illogical if you asked for corroboration of this
information from non-Mormon sources. Your "argument" would therefore
require you to accept as historical all information in the Book of Mormon.
I really think you can see the impact of the analogy, but since there is no
way for you to answer it without surrendering your position, you chose to
pretend that you don't follow the analogy.
me
Point of info. What I wanted was NOT to receive an endless list of
irrelevant biblical quotes, not to rule it out of the picture completely. It
is after all, a primary source. I was merely trying to avoid theist spam to
the list/me personally. I apologise if I didnt make this clear - but Im
trying to stimualte debate.
What I also meant is lietrally, how would we know Jesus/God? At present, my
view is that if he did return (and I <<really>> dont think that he will vene
if he was ever here at all, but thats a different question), the more than
likley, there would be no way of reconising him...he'd probably end up in an
institution claiming "NO Honestly,,,,I really
Ronnie
M.Z. Beg
>
>>>[Silva]
>>
>>snipped
>>
>>> Jesus was down
>>>played to simply being an ordinary man, a prophet, the prophet was killed
>>>because the Jews did not want to listen to what he had to say.....(this I
>>>believe is what the Koran states. correct me if I am wrong). If this is
>>>true,
>
>[M.Z. Beg]
>>You stand to be corrected. Koran does not state the Jesus was killed
>>by the Jews or any other, I quote below what Koran states :
>
>>157 : They said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary,
>>The Messenger of Allah"; - But they killed him not, Nor crucified him.
>>Only a likeness of that Was shown to them. And those who differ
>>Therein are full of doubts, With no (certain) knowledge. But only
>>conjecture to follow, For of a surety They killed him not; -
>>
>>158 : Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in
>>Power. Wise; - And there is none Of the People of the Book But must
>>believe in Him Before his death, And on the Day of Judgement He will
>>be a witness Against them; - S:4; 156-158
>
>
>[Silva]
>I stand corrected. I have one question though...In the last sentence of
>your quote, It is stated that on the day of judgement, He will be a witness
>against them. It would seem that the Koran makes no mention of the return of
>Christ. Once again let me know if I am wrong.
>
>
>
[M.Z. Beg]
If you read "And there is none Of the . . . . . . . . . . .before his
Death" this verse answers your question about the return of Christ.
You see the Jews rejected Jesus as Messenger of Allah, the Christians
believe wrongly that "He gave up the Ghost" on the cross, and in his
love and reverence they go as far as making Him the "Son of God". Only
Muslims believe in him as he was one of the mightiest Messenger of
God, that he performed miracles by the permission of God.
Our Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) told us the signs to look for before the
return of Jesus (PBUH) in no uncertain terms. So Jesus's return is
part of a Muslim believes.
G.R. Gaudreau
wrote:
>[M.Z. Beg]
>
>If you read "And there is none Of the . . . . . . . . . . .before his
>Death" this verse answers your question about the return of Christ.
>You see the Jews rejected Jesus as Messenger of Allah, the Christians
>believe wrongly that "He gave up the Ghost" on the cross, and in his
>love and reverence they go as far as making Him the "Son of God". Only
>Muslims believe in him as he was one of the mightiest Messenger of
>God, that he performed miracles by the permission of God.
>
>Our Messenger Muhammad (PBUH) told us the signs to look for before the
>return of Jesus (PBUH) in no uncertain terms. So Jesus's return is
>part of a Muslim believes.
[grgaud]
And the above, of course, begs the question: "how do you know that the
Qur'an is actually the word of Allah?" M.Z., you're doing exactly what
fundies everywhere do, that is, you assume the Qur'an is the only true
revelation from God. Xtians do the same thing and you say they're
wrong, so how do you know you're not?
Cheers,
bigf...@my-dejanews.com
"me" <dub...@msnb.com> wrote:
RONNIE:
BIGFATGUY:
The bible clearly states that he'll be wearing a "HELLO! My name is JESUS"
nametag and an "I'm with God" t-shirt.
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