Mustang Software: Thank you, but no thank you for "Wildcat Interactive Net Server"
Ken McMillen
November 7, 1996
Mr. Jim Harrer
President/CEO
Mustang Software, Inc.
P.O. Box 2264
Bakersfield, Ca. 93303
Dear Sir:
With regard to your letter of October 31, 1996, which arrived on my
desk with today's mail, presenting me with your breathtaking offer to
upgrade my 16 line version of Wildcat! 5 to the Wildcat! Interactive
Net Server - Business Edition for only $499.00.
Thanks, but no thanks.
The first paragraph of your letter in which you state "you have played
a very important role in the development of the Wildcat! platform over
the past six months." and "We truly appreciate your patience and
understanding as we worked to implement your suggestions and track
down the problems that are bound to crop up in any product of this
magnitude" pretty much sum up my present feelings toward Mustang
Software and it's products. I didn't put out money for Wildcat! 5
only to acquire a license as a guinea pig to test your product. It
should be obvious to all by now that you released this product less
than halfway through it's production cycle. If you sold cars, your
customers would have automobiles in their garage without engines or
paint. (You couldn't go anywhere and you would be to embarrassed to
show it to anybody). We knew we were in trouble when I placed my
first phone call to your technical support staff and was informed that
the problem that I was experiencing wasn't with your software
(Although that particular problem was specifically addressed and fixed
with the first "Update"). You should be paying your customers to test
you software instead of the other way around.
After our initial problems with Wildcat! 5 we returned to the use of
the Wildcat! 4 awaiting the the necessary fixes and updates. After
the release of the first update, coupled with the your decision to
switch to you "Automatic Update" system, we through in the towel,
determined your product unsuitable and switched not only our internal
systems, but all of those of our clients systems that were running
Wildcat! in any flavor, over to "Worldgroup Interactive Web
Software...all at MY company's expense....with very few problems and
and absolutely no regret.
I sincerely hope, and strongly recommend, that anyone considering the
purchase of your product first acquire a trial version of it, or
somehow get some hands-on experience, before making the purchase.
Incidentally. Is this "Offer" the "Updated CD-ROM" that you recently
stated in this news group would be available to owner's of the
original CD-ROM version of Wildcat! 5 for a minor fee?
Please feel free to remove my name from you client database at your
convenience and save yourself some printing and postage expense .
Most Sincerely,
Mr. Ken McMillen
L.McM...@worldnet.att.net
Riverside, California.
P.S. You really should give more consideration to switching over to
the OS/2 platform. You, IBM and OS/2 appear to have much in common.
Including the fact that both are sharing space in a box in our storage
room.
Rob Mooney
-> With regard to your letter of October 31, 1996, which arrived on my
-> desk with today's mail, presenting me with your breathtaking offer to
-> upgrade my 16 line version of Wildcat! 5 to the Wildcat! Interactive
-> Net Server - Business Edition for only $499.00.
->
-> Thanks, but no thanks.
I also feel that we were again mislead by MSI in the message that Jim
Harrer sent to us in this very message base a short time ago pertaining
to the cd updates.
Here is an excerpt from that very message:
----------------------------------------
From : JIM.H...@MUSTANG.COM
To : ALL
Subj : Wildcat! Status Report
Numb : 3004 of 3008 Date : 10/28/96 2:20pm
Read : [N/A] Reference : None
Conf : 33 - ALT.BBS.WILDCAT Private : NO
From: "Jim Harrer" <jim.h...@mustang.com>
Subject: Wildcat! Status Report
October 28, 1996
To: Our valued Wildcat! customers
CD-Updates
Original Wildcat! 5 customers will be receiving an offer in the mail
within the next two weeks which will let them order a new CD of the
Wildcat! Interactive Net Server (WIN Server) Community edition,
including new manuals, for a nominal fee. This CD will be pressed as
See you online,
Jim Harrer
President/CEO
Mustang Software, Inc.
I saved this message in it's entirety solely based on the above excerpt
and the word "NOMINAL"
My Oxford American Dictionary has this definition for Nominal:
Nominal = (Of an amount or sum of money) very small but charged or paid
as a token that payment is required.
To me this definition means that an amount of money is being charged
simply because some sort of payment is required.
Jim,
WHY do you continue to promise us one thing then deliver something
else? When I read the word nominal in your message I felt that Mustang
Software had finally seen the light and was about to right the wrongs
that have been continuously conveyed upon us Sysops who spent our hard
earned money on the ANNI CD, then I see the ridiculous advertisement
come in the mail and almost fell over when I looked at the prices?
WHY in hell would ANYONE want to spend that kind of money and something
that SHOULD have been provided to us in the first place? WHY DO I have
to pay for manuals that were:
1: Bound incorrectly
2: Contain inaccurate information
3: DO NOT contain updated information
4: etc etc etc!!!
IT IS COMPLETELY Mustang Software's FAULT that Wildcat 5.0 was shipped
with so many bugs in it, that the manuals are almost useless and that
MSI has constantly LIED about misleading the ANNI CD purchasers into
thinking that there would be NO expiration date on the DISCOUNT we are
supposed to have received WHENEVER we wanted to purchase the Wildcat 5.0
products and MANY other things!
IF you want to get back into the black and to STOP losing market share
and to STOP yourself's from going bankrupt I STRONGLY suggest that
you take an immediate change of course and START catering to the people
wh got you where you once were!
I think a good way to start would be by offering the ANNI CD owners
their 75% discount on ALL WIldcat 5 Win Server products WHENEVER they
can afford to purchase them!
THEN:
Send out NEW manuals to EVERYONE who has already purchased Wildcat 5
Win Server and then OFFER Something useful as an apology to ALL of the
customers who were here BEFORE you decided to go in the Wildcat 5.0
direction!
I once was a staunch supporter of Mustang Software and had thought that
you were the elite of the BBS world, I unfortunately NO LONGER feel that
way due to the way we have all been treated since the release of the
ANNI CD! I now feel that MSI is nothing but a bunch of money grubbing
people who see nothing but dollar signs and who have forgotten about all
of us people who got them where they once were!
My record of previous purchases in the WIldcat 3.xx and the Wildcat 4.xx
series speaks for itself, as does my lack of purchases in the 5.xx
series.
I have way TOO much money tied up into MSI products to bail out and
close up shop but I WILL NOT spend one more dime at MSI until you people
change back to where you once were and START giving back to us Sysops!
I have A copy of the original message the Jim Harrer posted in this
message base in case anyone wants to take a look at it!
A copy of this message was also sent directly via Internet E-Mail to Jim
Harrer.
Sincerely,
Rob Mooney
Systems Administrator
Coherent Spectrum BBS
rob.m...@coherentbbs.com
401-435-4349 Voice
401-435-6759
1:323/1017
Steve Mann in San Jose, CA
Mr. Jim Harrer
President/CEO
Mustang Software, Inc.
P.O. Box 2264
Bakersfield, Ca. 93303
Dear Sir:
With regard to your letter of October 31, 1996, which arrived on my
desk with today's mail, presenting me with your breathtaking offer to
upgrade my 16 line version of Wildcat! 5 to the Wildcat! Interactive
Net Server - Business Edition for only $499.00.
Thanks, but no thanks.
The second paragraph of your letter, you state ".. the only differences
between Wildcat!5 and the WIN Server are the add ons that are included in
the WIN Server."
I have spent over a Kilobuck with Mustang Software in the past year and a
half, starting with the Annihilator CD. I have purchased every add-on
with the exception of the developers kit and wcExchange. From my
perspective, It looks like I already have the "Business Edition" except
for the name.
So, you call $499 ".. a very special price to upgrade.." my copy to WIN
Server??
I don't think so, Jim.
If I am missing something, please let me know, but $499 is a lot for a
new label on the box.
Sincerely
Steve Mann
Quentin Smith
Steve Mann in San Jose, CA wrote:
> If I am missing something, please let me know, but $499 is a lot for a
> new label on the box.
It ain't _quite_ that bad... You can purchase the 2 line copy and use
your
current CD codes to unlock the same line count you already have. The
other
line counts are for those users who wish to upgrade to a 'bigger'
version.
That's my impression from reading thru the letter, anyway. Perhaps MSI
would like to clarify this?
I haven't decided whether to pop the $99 or not. There's something kinda
Microsoftesque about it. OTOH they haven't tried to sell me a bug fix
yet,
and if you figure 50 bucks for new docs and 20 for updated media (both
quite
common and accepted charges) it ain't too bad.
-qds
Angela Gartin & Mike Wendell
yea, but i've already paid for their poorly writen, incorrect examples,
falling apart, docs. IMO, i shouldnt have to pay again.
Quentin Smith
WC5 owners who received manuals with defective binding have already been
offered free replacements. Got that letter some time ago. If you didn't,
contact MSI. The letter came from the manual producer, but someone at
Mustang should know about it. Whether the replacement docs include any
corrections, I don't know. Given the pace of development I'm surprised
that they included printed docs at all. CDROM based docs tend to go to
press at the same stage of development as the code. Paper goes to
production a month or so earlier. The way this puppy changes, 30 days
makes a _big_ difference.
-qds
Jerry L. Wahl
Quentin Smith wrote:
>
> Steve Mann in San Jose, CA wrote:
>
> > new label on the box.
>
> It ain't _quite_ that bad... You can purchase the 2 line copy and use
> your current CD codes to unlock the same line count you already have.
Also that "offer" for the 16 line version includes user support which
is probably $250 or something.
1) I think the letter should have been much more clear on actual
options for existent WC5 users. i.e. the CD code upgrade thing.
2) It seems like we are getting the final software at our own expense
after an
extended beta test program which we paid for. $30 or $49 would seem
more appropriate for new media and manuals for an upgraded product for
someone who already had WC5 and the ICP.
- jerry
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Jerry L. Wahl Cadastral Survey BBS 703-440-1761
jl-...@access.digex.net jerry...@cadastral.com
visit www.cadastral.com
"Certainty of land location has value."
---------------------------------------
Fletch Bowling
sm...@rahul.net (Steve Mann in San Jose, CA) wrote:
>I have spent over a Kilobuck with Mustang Software in the past year and a
>half, starting with the Annihilator CD. I have purchased every add-on
>with the exception of the developers kit and wcExchange. From my
>perspective, It looks like I already have the "Business Edition" except
>for the name.
>
>So, you call $499 ".. a very special price to upgrade.." my copy to WIN
>Server??
>
>I don't think so, Jim.
>
>If I am missing something, please let me know, but $499 is a lot for a
>new label on the box.
>
Hey Steve, I know where you are comming from. I just got the latest
update and it fixed absolutely *NOTHING*. All the previous bugs are
still there. Callers still can't log in (unless they happen to use
fast log on)..they can't download any files because wc5 doesn't think
they are there and wcconfig is still very much broke.
It just doesn't make good business sense for us to pay for updates
when the core product is still very very buggy and the updates
do not fix anything. Extending AUP is a nice gesture, but
unfortunately the updates seem to cause more bugs instead of fixing
them. Hey MSI...new features are nice..but fix the all the damm bugs
in WC5 first then worry about new features. WC5 is great in theory
and even now I think MSI had a great idea but we need a product in
which the basic features actually work. The problems have been going
on way too long now and WC5 doesn't seem to be getting any better. I
have waited as long as i could but finally just couldnt wait for WC5
to be fixed so I just bought NT 4.0 Server for $299.95 and it now
includes a web and ftp server along with a publishing program included
in the price. And they are offering a free NNTP server for download.
So I am going to give that a shot and see how it goes. So far I am
both pleased and very surprised as the web server actually worked out
of the box the first time i tried :) It's a real treat to have
software actually work out of the box. That's something the computer
industry as a whole needs to really work on. Plug and play is anything
but..in fact It causes more trouble than it fixes. Anyway... I hope
this letter doesn't sound too negative as that is not it's intent. I
am not mad at anyone but myself for wasting so much time with this.
Even so as my time permits I plan on continuing to update wc5 as long
as the updates are free (and they should be until the bugs are gone)
in hopes that one day they will actually fix something, but I'm not
getting my hopes up too high at this point :)
Anyway...best of luck!,
Fletch
>Sincerely
>Steve Mann
>
>
Quentin Smith
Hey Mustang! How 'bout an offer minus the tech support? I haven't used
what I got with the package.
I agree, that letter could have been worded a bit better. It suffers
from the same problem as the manuals... It was written by someone 'in
the know', and it comes thru. I do the same thing. I've learned to
pass the stuff to someone utterly unfamiliar with the current job. If
they understand it, we print.
Every 'net product I've seen to date is beta code. All of it... This
is what is meant by 'bleeding edge'. We're there, folks. WC5/WINS is
settling down, finally. The last AUP is pretty close to V1.0, a fact
that even MSI recognizes. And it's been free unless we pop for the
new CD/doc offer. I don't give a hoot 'bout the new manuals (ain't
really read the old ones yet) but having that baseline CD if the
system turns TU is tempting. The $99 ain't horrid although this is
_not_ the warm, fuzzy Mustang that let me upgrade from one line to
250 lines for fifty bucks... OTOH this ain't a hobby product, either.
One quick read thru the stuff with the Anni CDROM warmed the ol' Visa
card a few degrees... Quite a few, actually. I projected $1000 in
software/hardware costs, not counting connectivity. So far that's been
pretty much on the mark.
-qds
tracer
On Fri, 08 Nov 1996 23:57:20 -0600, Quentin Smith <qds...@cris.com>
wrote:
Well, how does one get a replacement cdrom for a real bought and ppaid
for cdrom???
precious sysop opened it with a sharp knive and the cd was never
usable.
Sofar no answer from mustang how to replace a cd (hopefully also with
less bugs)
Gene L Warner
Ken McMillen <L.McM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> Mr. Jim Harrer
> President/CEO
> Mustang Software, Inc.
> P.O. Box 2264
> Bakersfield, Ca. 93303
>
> Dear Sir:
>
> With regard to your letter of October 31, 1996, which arrived on my
> desk with today's mail, presenting me with your breathtaking offer to
> upgrade my 16 line version of Wildcat! 5 to the Wildcat! Interactive
> Net Server - Business Edition for only $499.00.
>
> Thanks, but no thanks.
... and I quite agree. A fair offer would have permitted MSI to simply
recover the manufacturing and shipping cost of the replacement package.
I've kept up with the upgrades, but we've never run WC5 since we
received it as part of their original shipment. Meanwhile, we've spent a
lot of money already downloading AUP updates and fooling around with it
only to find out it still isn't up to snuff.
I was thinking seriously about taking MSI up on their replacement
offer, until receiving the letter informing me that I could do so by paying
almost as much as we originally spent for their useless original release.
Fool me once, shame on them. Fool me twice, shame on me!
Beyond that, I have zero confidence that what I'd be spending more
money on would work any better than the last package we received.
During the many months that we've been wasting our time with WC5,
we've continued to operate our v4.1 BBS, and have watched a steady decline
in traffic as the Internet's WWW and HTML have so rapidly evolved. Clearly,
BBS'ing in dying. For only about $1000 a year our company maintains a first
class web site on a first class commercial system served by T3 lines ...
why would I want to invest more time and money in a dying dial-in system
that will only be frequented by kids who want to play door games or rip off
files for their own transient hobby BBS's?
Frankly, I'm surprised that someone hasn't begun a class action
lawsuit requiring the company to take back this stuff and refund its
purchase price. Things must look very bleak at MSI right now.
Gene Warner
Warner Instruments
http://www.firiright.com
bre...@teleport.com
>to be fixed so I just bought NT 4.0 Server for $299.95 and it now
Where did you buy NT Server for 300 bucks?
Quentin Smith
tracer wrote:
> Well, how does one get a replacement cdrom for a real bought and ppaid
> for cdrom???
> precious sysop opened it with a sharp knive and the cd was never
> usable.
> Sofar no answer from mustang how to replace a cd (hopefully also with
> less bugs)
If anybody at MSI has any sense at all, they've already emailed
you and offered a replacement. They are following the newsgroup.
The media itself costs next to nothing, and is worthless without
the keys which you already have. Including postage, this li'l bit
of good customer relations will cost 'bout five bucks.
Having said all this... Call, explain what happened, be nice, and
don't get off 'til you find the person who can replace the CD.
This is a 'who can authorize this?' situation so be prepared to
talk to half the staff. Email is probably a waste of time. 'Walk it
thru' by phone...
-qds
Jim Harrer
Steve Mann in San Jose, CA <sm...@rahul.net > wrote in article
<55u4m1$j...@samba.rahul.net>...
>
> I have spent over a Kilobuck with Mustang Software in the past year and a
> half, starting with the Annihilator CD. I have purchased every add-on
> with the exception of the developers kit and wcExchange. From my
> perspective, It looks like I already have the "Business Edition" except
> for the name.
>
> So, you call $499 ".. a very special price to upgrade.." my copy to WIN
> Server??
>
> I don't think so, Jim.
>
> If I am missing something, please let me know, but $499 is a lot for a
> new label on the box.
Steve,
No, we are NOT asking you to spend $499 if you already have all of the
items that make up a business edition and a 16 use license. First, you can
download the latest version FREE by going to our AUP Server.
If you want a new set of manuals and a CD, you can purchase it for $99.
Its your decision.
These upgrade offers make sense for the thousand of WC5 sysops who never
purchased wcICP, wcReports, wcSubscribe or have low line counts or plan on
purchasing toll free support. If you already own all of the products, then
all you _may_ want is new manuals and the CD.
...Jim
Jim Harrer
> Jim,
> WHY do you continue to promise us one thing then deliver something
> else? When I read the word nominal in your message I felt that Mustang
> Software had finally seen the light and was about to right the wrongs
> that have been continuously conveyed upon us Sysops who spent our hard
> earned money on the ANNI CD, then I see the ridiculous advertisement
> come in the mail and almost fell over when I looked at the prices?
Actually, I think $99 for two new manuals and a new CD is a Nominal fee.
If you think it is too expensive then just download it from the AUP Server
and receive the update for FREE.
> WHY in hell would ANYONE want to spend that kind of money and something
> that SHOULD have been provided to us in the first place? WHY DO I have
> to pay for manuals that were:
Really? What if you only purchased WC5. No ICP, No reports, No Subscribe.
Then I would think this is a heck of an offer.
Some want to expand their line counts or get toll free voice support. In
this case, the Business and Enterprise offers do make sense.
> 1: Bound incorrectly
We replaced every customers manual who ask for a new one.
> 2: Contain inaccurate information
> 3: DO NOT contain updated information
Expect this when the Internet is re-engineering itself every 100 days.
Most Internet products don't even include printed manuals any more!
> I have way TOO much money tied up into MSI products to bail out and
> close up shop but I WILL NOT spend one more dime at MSI until you people
> change back to where you once were and START giving back to us Sysops!
We are doing the best we humanly can. If it isn't good enough then I
suggest you find something better.
Sincerely,
...Jim
Fletch Bowling
bre...@teleport.com wrote:
>>to be fixed so I just bought NT 4.0 Server for $299.95 and it now
>
>
>Where did you buy NT Server for 300 bucks?
>
MicrosWarehouse. On sale with 50 rebate till end of Dec.
Warthog
In article <01bbcf5c$e2d87cc0$1209...@jimhome.mustang.com>,
jim.h...@mustang.com says...
>Steve,
>
>If you want a new set of manuals and a CD, you can purchase it for $99.
>Its your decision.
>
>These upgrade offers make sense for the thousand of WC5 sysops who
never
>purchased wcICP, wcReports, wcSubscribe or have low line counts or plan
on
>purchasing toll free support. If you already own all of the products,
then
>all you _may_ want is new manuals and the CD.
>
>...Jim
Jim,
There is one thing here. Some of us do not WANT the items in the
package. We just want the updated manuals and the updated backup
versions of the software we currently have. Can't you make a *MUCH*
more affordable package available for this? I am a small one node free
community BBS that doesn't need the WCICP nor the WC REPORTS. Yea the
help is nice, but I really don't wish to have it. Yes its a good deal
for a NEW package, but not by any means for someone who gets what he/she
/they don't want. I will comment that you do have a wonderful product,
but I really see that it wasn't designed for me now. I really have no
business running WIN server as a community BBS. I guess as you said
above I need to find a service that is made for community BBSes
Ryan Woerth
jim...@hoflink.com
I have to agree to some of this. I received this "strange" promo in the
mail and like most unsolicited mail I dont read all of it word for word
but run through it looking for the scope of the promo. I may be wrong, as
well as the others posting here, but it DID look like MSI was asking me
to pay $500 for the same software I already had but with a new packaging
and updates burned into the cdrom. If I am wrong then Jim Harrer should
go over to his marketing or sales people and smack them around for making
such a promo which doesnt get the message accross clearly. It looked like
they wanted another $500 for a new pressing of the same stuff so the
mailing went into the circular file here next to my desk.
On 10 Nov 1996, Gene L Warner wrote:
> Ken McMillen <L.McM...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
jim...@hoflink.com
Yes, definitly. Dont get me wrong, this is not a slam at MSI, I have been
supportive of them pretty much all the way. This promo/brochure/whatever
just didnt make its message clear and I think alot of people just tossed
it. Next time MSI should send a few to trusted friends and say "Look it
over and let me know your first impression and true feelings on it."
On the other hand I think if MSI wants to eventually make some money on
AUP they have to pick a solid date and start charging for it. Something
reasonable per update, but not keep extending it so it feels like it will
never cost anything. I am surely not going to pay until I have to, its the
same way anyone would act with anything they bought.
Dana Marshall
I have to agree. You know what the MSI Solutions office told me when I
asked about a backup CD? To backup my BBS onto tape! I don't need most of
the stuff that's offered for $99, but I certainly need a backup copy of
Wildcat, since I have had my HD go out, the motherboard go out, etc.
Mr. Harrier, you would do well to charge a better price for JUST the CD and
manuals to sysops that have bought your product.
Dana Marshall
dana.m...@prostar.com
co...@pacbell.net
Jim Harrer wrote:
> We are doing the best we humanly can. If it isn't good enough then I
> suggest you find something better.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> ...Jim
Typical response!!!!!
Robert Sansom
"Dana Marshall" <dana.m...@prostar.com> wrote:
>Dana Marshall
>dana.m...@prostar.com
I can see why having a new CD with all the update code on is nice if
you have to reinstall but I can't see whats wrong with MSI saying
backup to tape, they can't be criticised for that its common sense.
We run a BBS here in the UK to support our business and the thought of
running a system thats required 24 hours a day 365 days a year without
backing up to tape makes me shiver, and the ability to restore all
some of the system is available in any half decent package.
We get patches all the time from MS and if they ever did put all the
service packs for 95 onto a shipping '95 CD they would expect you to
pay for it.
I'll certainly be ordering my copy for $99. If all my software
updates here in the U.K. were that cheap I'd be laughing.
Rob