Renegade R.I.P
Jeff Herrings
As I sit here, I find myself wondering if what I am about to say and do
is perhaps either pre-mature or an honorable way to remember a great BBS
software. The fact of the matter is, I have been thinking this for quite
sometime now and regardless of how many times I think this thought, I find
myself coming up with the same answer(s).
When Cott Lang started Renegade BBS software, it was in my opinion as
well as many others I am sure, ahead of its time for any independent
programmer. Granted it might not have had a complex scripting language (PCB
for one) nor did it have it's own sharing/multi-tasking routines (TBBS - The
Bread Board System), however it did offer some of -the- best features with
easily understandable configuration menus and at a price that just could not
be beat (for free).
Several years after Cott produced this fine software, he had made a
decision due to numerous reasons (no reason to go over -any- of them again,
no reason at -all-) to cease programming while he was still ahead (or not).
At this time the persistence of Patrick Spence and Gary Hall paid off when
Cott agreed to allow them to continue Renegade development.
A few more years went on, while Patrick and Gary were hard at work
ensuring updates were released, in which Renegade lived on. Unfortunately
(and as you'll soon see it happens) due to time restraints and other things,
the desire and opportunity for them to continue work on Renegade was
noticeably decreasing.
In my search for love of Renegade, I found there was no "Y2K" patch
currently available and I wondered why (I later found of the time restraints
and lacking desire). I emailed Patrick inquiring if my assistance could be
offered to help a "Y2K" patch be released before far too long. He replied
and at this time we worked out that I could then carry the torch, with the
many responsibilities, headaches, thrills and sense of contribution that
brought with it.
I was to say the least absolutely thrilled that after -many- years of
contributing third party software for in my mind the best BBS software of
its kind, I could finally dive in and make updates and changes as I saw fit.
Those changes of course were always either implemented or thought about with
the best intentions in mind for all the Renegade BBS community.
However, they say history repeats itself and that it does. I find now,
more so in these past few weeks that I haven't the time nor desire to
continue work on Renegade BBS. The desire is not due to countless number of
emails (I am a bit glad I wasn't programming Renegade BBS during BBS prime
days of existence) I have received with pestering questions asking the
infamous "when is the next release, why are you taking so long, etc, etc."
(notice, I did NOT say the inquisitive emails, those I have never minded
what-so-ever), but instead that of respect for a once great BBS software
(which in my mind personally, will always be great), overwhelming family
occurrences (some related to the repercussions of the most recent incidents
against our country, mind you my wife is active military and is as I type
this in the middle of the ocean, where I do not know) and a hectic
move/business status.
So, out of respect for Renegade BBS (and those who contributed to it in
the past and present), those who used or use it and for myself... as of
today Sunday, October 7th, 2001 I bring the many chapters of Renegade BBS to
a close.
As always, I will continue to frequent BBS's via telnet and sometimes
dial-up whenever time permits. Those SysOp's that see me on their BBS's
know that I am usually on and off within a few minutes, though, I try to
make the best of those minutes, let it be via participation or just
nostalgic reasons.
With that said, I wish to thank EVERYONE that has ever been a part
and/or will continue to stay a part of the Renegade Community my best wishes
in anything and everything you do BBS related or not. The time for me was
enjoyable, very enjoyable time spent.
Sincerely,
Jeff Herrings
PS - I will continue to keep my word to Patrick Spence and in turn Cott Lang
by not offering the source code to anyone. I hope that you will only
understand and accept this decision out of respect of both Patrick, Gary and
myself giving our word to never make it public domain/source.
PSS - I might add that even by the time I find that I am able to work on
Renegade BBS (the completely re-vamped Windows/Unix flavor) other software
suites that are currently available have such an edge, due to time of
existence and time to devote, that if I were to have ever or would ever
release this version, those other suites would have been one, two or quite
possibly three steps ahead. This too was another, no matter how
insignificant, reason to lay Renegade BBS to rest.
Nielubie
programmer? I hate to see software die that I have worked with through High
School, College and now my older years. This cannot be the end, renegade
must live on.
--
- Pete
"Jeff Herrings" <jeffhe...@hotmail.remove.com> wrote in message
news:kY3w7.25662$le.45...@news1.rdc1.va.home.com...
Ariven
news:9prgro$o...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> Is Renegade really going to die or will it find a new enthusiastic
> programmer? I hate to see software die that I have worked with through
High
> School, College and now my older years. This cannot be the end, renegade
> must live on.
No hot young programmers eager to make their name known using 1990's
technology and dos compilers have stepped up so far..
--
Patrick Spence <ari...@ariven.com>
Want weather reports delevered to your desktop?
http://ww2.weatherbug.com/aff/default.asp?ZCode=z3345
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Craig Box
and of course the first group I turn to (the only one I've ever been an
active participant in)...
> So, out of respect for Renegade BBS (and those who contributed to it
in
> the past and present), those who used or use it and for myself... as of
> today Sunday, October 7th, 2001 I bring the many chapters of Renegade BBS
to
> a close.
And I'm up to date with the news straight away :)
As a long time RG sysop (although some years removed now) I understand the
decision you've made in a similar light to closing my board down. I
haven't been active on any BBS, telnet or dialup since then - technology has
moved on and I don't have the time.
My activity with Renegade ended not long before you came onto "the scene" -
I was one of the new set of alphas (people who badgered Patrick and Gary
enough) and closed down in 1998? i cant even remember what year it was.
Anyway, I've always loved BBSes, Renegade especially, and I agree with
everything you've said. Thankyou for all you've done Jeff, thanks Patrick,
thanks Cott if you're out there anywhere.
Check out bbsdocumentary.com - you might want to contribute a few dates or
something ;)
> PSS - I might add that even by the time I find that I am able to work on
> Renegade BBS (the completely re-vamped Windows/Unix flavor) other software
> suites that are currently available have such an edge, due to time of
> existence and time to devote, that if I were to have ever or would ever
> release this version, those other suites would have been one, two or quite
> possibly three steps ahead. This too was another, no matter how
> insignificant, reason to lay Renegade BBS to rest.
Do yourself a favour Jeff, and if you want to work on a unrewarded
Unix/Windows project in your spare time, pick something that you'll enjoy
and consider relevant in years to come ;)
Craig
MOD
wrote:
>"Nielubie" <nie_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:9prgro$o...@dispatch.concentric.net...
>> Is Renegade really going to die or will it find a new enthusiastic
>> programmer? I hate to see software die that I have worked with through
>High
>> School, College and now my older years. This cannot be the end, renegade
>> must live on.
>
>No hot young programmers eager to make their name known using 1990's
>technology and dos compilers have stepped up so far..
if I knew pascal better, or for that matter even had a decent pascal
compiler I'd step up... I know quite a few people have expressed
interest in the past... but probably most have given up by now :/
then again, maybe someone worth the time will come forward... good
luck, I hate to see RG officially go... 'ell, that was one of my last
reasons for still sticking with RG :/
--Warning, In the case of political opinions, I feel
--it is important that all sides be considered, and
--am therefore likely to take a side I do not agree
--with if only so that it recieves proper
--consideration. Thank you for the Debate *MOD
-* The WarLorDz BBS NNTP Discussion Server
news://warlordz.darktech.org
-* The WarLorDz Realm <MUD Server>
telnet://warlordz.darktech.org:29
PUFKY
This is now a free compiler. I haven't played with it too much yet (no time),
but I was poking at it, considering whether I'd be able to contribute to
Renegade at all.
Would it be possible for a group of programmers to take over somehow?
MOD
wrote:
well, I don't know about the RG code, but it chokes hard on the
telegard code that's available...
arnaud de bonald
another dead BBS software....
Too bad, it was nice.....
I hope the Teleguard people won't follow this.....
Darryl Perry
not to make a proposal to Tim Strike about turning over the reins of
TG to him. It's possible he might be interested in doing the same for
RG if thigs don't pan out with TG.
If he offered, would he be considered?
"Ariven" <pres...@whitehouse.gov> wrote in message news:<3bc25cfe$1...@corp.newsgroups.com>...
> "Nielubie" <nie_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9prgro$o...@dispatch.concentric.net...
> > Is Renegade really going to die or will it find a new enthusiastic
> > programmer? I hate to see software die that I have worked with through
> High
> > School, College and now my older years. This cannot be the end, renegade
> > must live on.
>
> No hot young programmers eager to make their name known using 1990's
> technology and dos compilers have stepped up so far..
-Regards,
Darryl Perry
Cybera BBS : Sacramento, CA : Telnet://cyberia.darktech.org
Cott Lang
Jeff Herrings wrote:
>
> Several years after Cott produced this fine software, he had made a
> decision due to numerous reasons (no reason to go over -any- of them again,
> no reason at -all-) to cease programming while he was still ahead (or not).
> At this time the persistence of Patrick Spence and Gary Hall paid off when
> Cott agreed to allow them to continue Renegade development.
For the record, I should've dropped it several years earlier and passed
it on to someone more interested in it than I. I had totally lost
interest in BBSing by 95 or so, having been an Internet junkie since '91. :)
At the time, the 'next logical step' for Renegade was embracing a
standardized message base format and/or moving to a real database for
everything, supporting Internet connectivity, etc. I realized I had no
interest in putting that kind of effort into maintaining software that I
wasn't even particularly interested in using anymore, so I ditched it
and closed my BBS after 10 years in operation.
> PS - I will continue to keep my word to Patrick Spence and in turn Cott Lang
> by not offering the source code to anyone. I hope that you will only
> understand and accept this decision out of respect of both Patrick, Gary and
> myself giving our word to never make it public domain/source.
Much thanks. I never wanted to contribute to even more splintering of
effort by having 20 people working on 20 versions of a take off -
instead, I wanted some folks to take Renegade and run with it.
> PSS - I might add that even by the time I find that I am able to work on
> Renegade BBS (the completely re-vamped Windows/Unix flavor) other software
> suites that are currently available have such an edge, due to time of
> existence and time to devote, that if I were to have ever or would ever
> release this version, those other suites would have been one, two or quite
> possibly three steps ahead. This too was another, no matter how
> insignificant, reason to lay Renegade BBS to rest.
In 1995, I began work on an OS/2 version of Renegade written in C. It
supported dialin and telnet connections and was multithreaded. I had all
the basics finished - that is, communications and the threading.
Unfortunately, OS/2 sales began to slip and Windows was a shoddy piece
of shit, so I realized I was working on software that would've been
ahead of it's time, but still dead before it was released, so I bailed.
It's unfortunate that I wasn't more into Linux at the time, but I
figured if OS/2 wasn't ready for the mainstream, what chance did Linux
have? :)
Since then, I have many times considered writing an 'Internet' version
of Renegade, but you immediately get into the debate of whether you
build a nostalgic version that uses Telnet, or a more useful version
that's web based. If you go with the web based version, one could argue
that there are BBS 'replacements' available for the Web - there are lots
of message board software packages, and throwing file support in isn't a
biggie. Some of the missing 'community' features like "Who's online" and
user-to-user chat were missing until recently - but those have now
shown up in Ultimate Bulletin Board. I'm not sure there's a point in
reinventing the wheel, but it does still interest me.
Where should BBS technology go today, or is it already there?
Why do people still run Renegade BBSs in this day of the web ? How
large is the 'market' ?
Cott Lang
I originally asked Martin Pollard to let me help on Telegard to solve
the 'dispute' between the TG and RG people. Martin apparently wanted
the spotlight on himself more than he wanted better software, so he refused.
Justin M. Streiner
>Much thanks. I never wanted to contribute to even more splintering of
>effort by having 20 people working on 20 versions of a take off -
>instead, I wanted some folks to take Renegade and run with it.
I think the case could also be made that in releasing the source, some
people would create different derivative works and either 1) expect/demand
support from the 'legitimate' authors for their own coding decisions, or
2) those derivatives would be crafted for a specific purpose and the
original Renegade would be painted with the same brush. I keep thinking
back to packages like Oblivion/2, Celerity and ViSiON-X which gained
reputations as software for pirate boards. Ok... ViSiON-X pretty much *was*
a package for pirate boards, who am I kidding? ;-)
>In 1995, I began work on an OS/2 version of Renegade written in C. It
>supported dialin and telnet connections and was multithreaded. I had all
>the basics finished - that is, communications and the threading.
>Unfortunately, OS/2 sales began to slip and Windows was a shoddy piece
>of shit, so I realized I was working on software that would've been
>ahead of it's time, but still dead before it was released, so I bailed.
It was a shame that OS/2 didn't fare better in the marketplace, but the
blame for that rests squarely with IBM for not marketing it and not having
the stones to butt heads with Microsoft. Why OS/2 fell by the wayside is a
topic for a totally separate thread ;-) I ran Renegade under OS/2 back
when you were still maintaining it, and it was rock-solid.
>It's unfortunate that I wasn't more into Linux at the time, but I
>figured if OS/2 wasn't ready for the mainstream, what chance did Linux
>have? :)
Hindsight's 20/20 I guess ;-)
>Since then, I have many times considered writing an 'Internet' version
>of Renegade, but you immediately get into the debate of whether you
>build a nostalgic version that uses Telnet, or a more useful version
>that's web based. If you go with the web based version, one could argue
>that there are BBS 'replacements' available for the Web - there are lots
>of message board software packages, and throwing file support in isn't a
>biggie. Some of the missing 'community' features like "Who's online" and
> user-to-user chat were missing until recently - but those have now
>shown up in Ultimate Bulletin Board. I'm not sure there's a point in
>reinventing the wheel, but it does still interest me.
>
>Where should BBS technology go today, or is it already there?
>
>Why do people still run Renegade BBSs in this day of the web ? How
>large is the 'market' ?
I don't know how large the market is, but it seems like there is a resurgence
in BBS popularity now. I guess I'd credit that to either people waxing
nostalgic or Internet access pretty much being commoditized now. Maybe it's
both, I don't know. The progression from BBS to ISP was a natural one, so
people may have some desire to get back to their roots.
My take on why people still want to run Renegade is because it's easy to get
it up and running, but still very customizable. The price was right for
your average sysop doing this as a hobby back in the heyday of dialup BBSs
in the early to mid 90s. People tend to stick with what they know.
jms
Michael Fluharty
a response.
For the past six years I have been out of the online BBS scene
occasionally returning to see how it has progressed.
At one time I was the teenaged sysop of a 500+ user BBS that quickly
plummeted to under 20 users literally overnight when AOL and the
Internet took off.
Recalling the gripes that I had to deal with back then, I can only
imagine what kind of nagging went on to cause your interests in the
future development of the Renegade software to plunge.
I was surprised in the past few months to see all of the information
that became available in the BBS community and its revival.
I was even more surprised to see that there had been a Y2K release of
Renegade.
However, I was sincerely saddened and thought it unfortunate the
casualties of self-centered users and sysops that have negatively
impacted the BBS Community with the decision of NO new future releases
of Renegade.
By my previous silence I feel that I too may have been a contributing
factor in the demise of Renegade.
Negative opinions in conjunction with the silence dwarfed the voices
of those that are thankful of the efforts of all involved renegade's
prior development.
Obviously it has not been said enough and hopefully it is not to late
to thank the authors and contributors and apologize for my silence and
oblivious disregard to any and all of their previous efforts.
It's has always been nice to know that there is a more personal
alternative to the World Wide Web.
Best Wishes, and a sincere THANK YOU,
Michael Fluharty
Cott Lang <f...@u.com> wrote in message news:<3C2C9761...@u.com>...
JRSEXPOT
where is the software, or is it worth it now with the internet and all?
JRSEXPOT
would I run with renegade? If I wanted ie the last version? could I get
guidence from you?
Michael Fluharty
> Hi im a past sysop, so renegade is no more?..If I wanted to reopen my bbs,
> where is the software, or is it worth it now with the internet and all?
Jr.,
http://www.ariven.com/ has the software and manuals needed to start
back up.
http://www.allensoftware.com/ has a nifty program that turns your IP
address into a Hayes compatible modem. It also works as the FOSSIL
driver.
But it only supports one node. I haven't found anything good yet that
supports more than one node.
http://www.no-ip.com/ has a nifty program and service that turns your
dynamic IP address into a Static IP address. "Assign a free static
name to your dynamic or static IP address using dynamic DNS."
http://www.pcmicro.com/archives/ has some nifty archives loaded with
files for sysops.
Being worth it would be up to you and whether or not you liked it in
the past. For me it's nice to have a hobby with a connection to the
past.
-Michael
neonux
Even some younger "never called a BBS" callers joined in and liked it.
This got me to thinking... Why did it want to come back? Are people getting
sick of the net? I think in some ways I am. I've been on too long. I miss
the good ol' days... :)
> Much thanks. I never wanted to contribute to even more splintering of
> effort by having 20 people working on 20 versions of a take off -
> instead, I wanted some folks to take Renegade and run with it.
It could get splintered into 20 versions but so what? If people have a use
for them let them.
I mean if its dead as far as new official releases really then there is no
harm.
For some reason this whole thing reminds me of the Linus Torvalds
situation...
Could Renegade be morphed into a Linux version? Could it be made to allow
for a next generation door games.
What did Linus Torvalds get out of releasing Linux? Nothing much granted...
but what did the world get? He wouldn't have forseen what would have
happened to it really either.
I would say that Renegade should be open source on these conditions...
1) No stupid expectations.
2) There are going to be good discussion on the direction Renegade may go.
3) There is a maintainer who is interested and has a final say.
My ideas on where Renegade should go...(nope I don't expect everyone to
agree but rather hope it sparks discussion)
Net intergration. With the capabilities that the net allows us there is
alot more room to move with graphics, audio and gameplay.
Based in Linux on the GPL.
Planning on the technology available to most potential users and what that
could be used to do.
Take a look at Dink Smallwood. There is a bbs style game that went
graphical and was great!
> It's unfortunate that I wasn't more into Linux at the time, but I
> figured if OS/2 wasn't ready for the mainstream, what chance did Linux
> have? :)
Heh... well what chance does Renegade have at the moment? ;-)
> Since then, I have many times considered writing an 'Internet' version
> of Renegade, but you immediately get into the debate of whether you
> build a nostalgic version that uses Telnet, or a more useful version
> that's web based. If you go with the web based version, one could argue
> that there are BBS 'replacements' available for the Web - there are lots
> of message board software packages, and throwing file support in isn't a
> biggie. Some of the missing 'community' features like "Who's online" and
> user-to-user chat were missing until recently - but those have now
> shown up in Ultimate Bulletin Board. I'm not sure there's a point in
> reinventing the wheel, but it does still interest me.
No point bothering about going backwards too much. Retain the feel but up
date it with neat lookn'feel and also some kickass internet tweaks.
> Where should BBS technology go today, or is it already there?
I believe there is room to move. I mean why give up inventing just because
others have already invented the wheel... you can invent the motor to drive
the wheels, then the steering wheel etc.. :) (or is that back to front?!?)
hehe
> Why do people still run Renegade BBSs in this day of the web ? How
> large is the 'market' ?
How large _could_ it be? Will people use it.... in my opinion yes..._I_
would! :)
Ah Valhalla BBS I can feel another come back...
From a young yet old Sysop...
NeoNux
Cott Lang
> Could Renegade be morphed into a Linux version? Could it be made to allow
> for a next generation door games.
No. Turbo Pascal is an excellent language for quickly producing fast DOS
executables. That's about it. :)
> My ideas on where Renegade should go...(nope I don't expect everyone to
> agree but rather hope it sparks discussion)
> Net intergration. With the capabilities that the net allows us there is
> alot more room to move with graphics, audio and gameplay.
> Based in Linux on the GPL.
> Planning on the technology available to most potential users and what that
> could be used to do.
Yet another reason not to open source Renegade. It's Turbo Pascal. It's
so Internet & Linux unfriendly, I wouldn't encourage anyone to pick up
the code and try to drag it kicking and screaming into the 'future'.
It'd be far better (and easier, for christ's sake!) to start over in
Java, or at worst, C.
> I believe there is room to move. I mean why give up inventing just because
> others have already invented the wheel... you can invent the motor to drive
> the wheels, then the steering wheel etc.. :) (or is that back to front?!?)
> hehe
Obscene amount of work to catch up just to where other people already
are. :)
Cott Lang
> However, I was sincerely saddened and thought it unfortunate the
> casualties of self-centered users and sysops that have negatively
> impacted the BBS Community with the decision of NO new future releases
> of Renegade.
Quite frankly, I'm way too much of an asshole to let a bunch of
ingrateful assholes cause me to stop doing something I enjoyed. I loved
working on Renegade while I was 'into' running my BBS and had thousands
of users and dozens of local friends on my system. After about 1993,
BBSing in Atlanta began to die off and the good people disappeared. My
interest level dropped steadily, so the software wasn't of any interest
to me anymore.
The brats just annoyed me, sometimes to the point of NOT putting in
features that people were particularly assholish about. :)
> Obviously it has not been said enough and hopefully it is not to late
> to thank the authors and contributors and apologize for my silence and
> oblivious disregard to any and all of their previous efforts.
>
> It's has always been nice to know that there is a more personal
> alternative to the World Wide Web.
>
> Best Wishes, and a sincere THANK YOU,
Thank you too.
neonux
allow
> > for a next generation door games.
>
> No. Turbo Pascal is an excellent language for quickly producing fast DOS
> executables. That's about it. :)
Ah so it was still written in that? Golly then well I was going to say...
"Don't let me near the source code! I can only read Turbo Pascal and
Basic!" hahah... :)
Delphi updated Pascal didn't it?
I could help read it (for those who only understand C/C++ or Java or
something else...) and translate that if it needs to go that way.
I think you would perhaps throw away most of the source code anyway if it
were to be updated. That much should be expected when changing platform and
direction. How much of your original code is in the last version btw?
I mean it would be the fundamental procudures, solutions to basic problems
and ideas that you would use from the original source code anyways.
> Yet another reason not to open source Renegade. It's Turbo Pascal. It's
> so Internet & Linux unfriendly, I wouldn't encourage anyone to pick up
> the code and try to drag it kicking and screaming into the 'future'.
> It'd be far better (and easier, for christ's sake!) to start over in
> Java, or at worst, C.
Well there you go... I agree... you would end up with almost nothing from
the original source code in the new direction... but its a starting point.
Giving out the ideas on how to do something or get around something is what
I am really getting at.
I've just had another thought... Have you heard of Kylix? Basically Delphi
for Linux from what I've heard... :-)
Pascal language based programming environment surely if its like delphi it
has Internet capabilities built in.
> Obscene amount of work to catch up just to where other people already
are. :)
Yes perhaps for one person who may not be interested in it. ;)
NeoNux
JRSEXPOT
neonux
How so?
You mean that I've not got a reply... ?
br...@home.com
to this fine software. My board (TwiLight Zone) has been up now for
about 12 years. Yes the users dropped off, but it's still up and
running. Back in 1988 we had about 350 callers. Now I may only have a
couple dozen or so that still stop by infrequently. It seems to go in
cycles. Nothing for weeks and than they're back calling a couple or so
times a day. Even some from the early days of the board drop in now
and again.
And from day one my users loved renegade for it's simplicity and easy
to use. I admit, I changed once for about a week to MBBS (Worldgroup)
and got an earful from my users, so back it went to Renegade.
I am saddened to hear that Renegade has been laid to rest. :( It was
a pleasure to use and I have no plans to shut down my board just yet
and will continue to use it.
I would like to thank the authors and contributors for all their
efforts in putting this fine piece of work available for us to use.
Maybe somewhere in the future the BBS scene will revive (and then
maybe not) but I am glad I was able to be part of it and am fortunate
that there was such a great thing as RENEGADE!
Best Wishes and Thank You to Cott Lang, thank you for the opportunity
to use it. Thanks to Patrick Spence, Gary Hall, and Jeff Herrings for
their continued efforts.
Thanks and best wishes in all your endeavors.
Olga (aka Brite)
neonux
> efforts in putting this fine piece of work available for us to use.
I second that whole heartedly!
I think that Mr Lang should know that it was the best peice of BBS software
that alot of us ever used. OK so he and his predecessors might have been
grumbled at alot over the years BUT there were probably the silent majority
out here that really loved the software.
Aaron