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Edmund Wong
Nov 30, 2021, 11:20:28 PM11/30/21
to
Hi,
I've set up NNTP access on my BBS and used my newsgroup client (SeaMonkey)
to read messages.
However, everytime I read one message, it'd ask if I want to subscribe
to a messge#. How do I prevent this from happening? I'm guessing the NNTP
server links messages using the message # based on the message base and not the
actual newsgroup message id (or however that works).
I've looked at the message base settings but haven't come across something
that fixes this.
Any clarifications appreciated,
Edmund
... Hard work never killed anyone but why take a risk?
I've set up NNTP access on my BBS and used my newsgroup client (SeaMonkey)
to read messages.
However, everytime I read one message, it'd ask if I want to subscribe
to a messge#. How do I prevent this from happening? I'm guessing the NNTP
server links messages using the message # based on the message base and not the
actual newsgroup message id (or however that works).
I've looked at the message base settings but haven't come across something
that fixes this.
Any clarifications appreciated,
Edmund
... Hard work never killed anyone but why take a risk?
Edmund Wong
Dec 1, 2021, 5:20:31 AM12/1/21
to
Hi Christian,
CS> This isn't really any help, but maybe it's your NNTP client? I use claws
CS> mail and thunderbird to access the echomail on my BBS via NNTP, and that
CS> doesn't happen on my system, so I would suggest maybe it's your NNTP
CS> client.
I'll take a look at claws. I use SeaMonkey (which is built with the same
backend engine as Thunderbird); but will take a gander.
Thanks
Edmund
... If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?
CS> This isn't really any help, but maybe it's your NNTP client? I use claws
CS> mail and thunderbird to access the echomail on my BBS via NNTP, and that
CS> doesn't happen on my system, so I would suggest maybe it's your NNTP
CS> client.
I'll take a look at claws. I use SeaMonkey (which is built with the same
backend engine as Thunderbird); but will take a gander.
Thanks
Edmund
... If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?
Christian Sacks
Dec 1, 2021, 5:20:31 AM12/1/21
to
On 01 Dec 2021, Edmund Wong said the following...
EW> Hi,
EW>
EW> I've set up NNTP access on my BBS and used my newsgroup client
EW> (SeaMonkey) to read messages.
EW>
EW> However, everytime I read one message, it'd ask if I want to subscribe
EW> to a messge#. How do I prevent this from happening? I'm guessing the
EW> NNTP server links messages using the message # based on the message base
EW> and not the actual newsgroup message id (or however that works).
EW>
EW> I've looked at the message base settings but haven't come across
EW> something that fixes this.
EW>
EW> Any clarifications appreciated,
Hi,
This isn't really any help, but maybe it's your NNTP client? I use claws mail
and thunderbird to access the echomail on my BBS via NNTP, and that doesn't
happen on my system, so I would suggest maybe it's your NNTP client.
Have you tried either of the above clients I use? Perhaps give them a look as
they might be better for your needs, unless the same happens with them too, and
you'll be back to the start.
Sorry that this isn't really a "help" but maybe something to think about at
least.
... I wish life had a scroll-back buffer.
EW> Hi,
EW>
EW> I've set up NNTP access on my BBS and used my newsgroup client
EW> (SeaMonkey) to read messages.
EW>
EW> However, everytime I read one message, it'd ask if I want to subscribe
EW> to a messge#. How do I prevent this from happening? I'm guessing the
EW> NNTP server links messages using the message # based on the message base
EW> and not the actual newsgroup message id (or however that works).
EW>
EW> I've looked at the message base settings but haven't come across
EW> something that fixes this.
EW>
EW> Any clarifications appreciated,
Hi,
This isn't really any help, but maybe it's your NNTP client? I use claws mail
and thunderbird to access the echomail on my BBS via NNTP, and that doesn't
happen on my system, so I would suggest maybe it's your NNTP client.
Have you tried either of the above clients I use? Perhaps give them a look as
they might be better for your needs, unless the same happens with them too, and
you'll be back to the start.
Sorry that this isn't really a "help" but maybe something to think about at
least.
... I wish life had a scroll-back buffer.
g00r00
Dec 1, 2021, 12:20:23 PM12/1/21
to
EW> I've set up NNTP access on my BBS and used my newsgroup client
EW> (SeaMonkey) to read messages.
I will have to get this installed and test with it.
EW> (SeaMonkey) to read messages.
It could very much be a bug or some incompatibility. Mystic's NNTP server I
don't think gets a lot of use and could use some work as well specifically
around the message IDs actually.
It could also be a client bug too, but I won't know until I get a chance to
look at it.
... When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say?
Edmund Wong
Dec 2, 2021, 12:20:25 AM12/2/21
to
Hi g00r00,
Just an addendum. Packing message base does nothing to the
weird post being viewed in the NNTP client.
Edmund
... There are two types of people; those who finish what they start and
Just an addendum. Packing message base does nothing to the
weird post being viewed in the NNTP client.
Edmund
... There are two types of people; those who finish what they start and
Edmund Wong
Dec 2, 2021, 12:20:26 AM12/2/21
to
Hi g00r00,
g0> It could very much be a bug or some incompatibility. Mystic's NNTP
g0> server I don't think gets a lot of use and could use some work as well
g0> specifically around the message IDs actually.
I just did a test on a local message board.
Posting to the newsgroup (local) isn't a problem; but, when
I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
I see a different message.
i.e.
1) in Mystic: Post message to local message board. [ok]
2) in NNTP client: post message to local message board. [ok]
3) in Mystic: Reply to message as posted in #2 [ok]
4) in NNTP client: Read message as posted in #3 [not ok]
In #4, I get some message from some other group (in
this case, it's FidoNet Binkley. Message from Paul Quinn to
Alan Ianson.
I'm going to do a message pack to see if this fixes it.
Thanks
Edmund
... Just another prisoner of gravity!
g0> It could very much be a bug or some incompatibility. Mystic's NNTP
g0> server I don't think gets a lot of use and could use some work as well
g0> specifically around the message IDs actually.
I just did a test on a local message board.
Posting to the newsgroup (local) isn't a problem; but, when
I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
I see a different message.
i.e.
1) in Mystic: Post message to local message board. [ok]
2) in NNTP client: post message to local message board. [ok]
3) in Mystic: Reply to message as posted in #2 [ok]
4) in NNTP client: Read message as posted in #3 [not ok]
In #4, I get some message from some other group (in
this case, it's FidoNet Binkley. Message from Paul Quinn to
Alan Ianson.
I'm going to do a message pack to see if this fixes it.
Thanks
Edmund
... Just another prisoner of gravity!
g00r00
Dec 2, 2021, 4:20:31 PM12/2/21
to
EW> Posting to the newsgroup (local) isn't a problem; but, when
EW> I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
EW> and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
EW> I see a different message.
Have you tried this with any other news clients? I will try to get a test done
this weekend to see what I can figure out.
... If you can't make it good, make it LOOK good. -Bill Gates.
EW> I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
EW> and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
EW> I see a different message.
Have you tried this with any other news clients? I will try to get a test done
this weekend to see what I can figure out.
... If you can't make it good, make it LOOK good. -Bill Gates.
Static
Dec 3, 2021, 3:20:32 AM12/3/21
to
On 02 Dec 2021, Edmund Wong said the following...
EW> Posting to the newsgroup (local) isn't a problem; but, when
EW> I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
EW> and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
EW> I see a different message.
I ran into this with Thunderbird a while back and essentially what you're
seeing is a result of the interaction between your client and the way the
Mystic NNTP server reports message IDs. I know g00r00 has been aware of the
thing with IDs but has had limited time to prioritize it so far.
Mystic at present uses the post number in the message area as the NNTP
message ID so for example every area with posts in it will each have a message
with ID 1.
Seamonkey/Thunderbird on the other hand expects unique IDs per server so when
reading it will check its cache for a given message ID and just show you that
before trying to download anything. The client makes no distinction about which
message area/newsgroup you're currently looking at if it has that ID cached
already. Some other news clients happen to account for this possibility,
although the RFC doesn't require them to.
NNTP Message-IDs don't have to be numeric or have any correlation to the
message's slot in the messagebase so there's a lot of possible approaches to
generating them based on message contents or metadata.
... "No comment" is a comment.
EW> Posting to the newsgroup (local) isn't a problem; but, when
EW> I log on to mystic, and do a reply to the local message,
EW> and then I go into the newsgroup, and read that reply message,
EW> I see a different message.
I ran into this with Thunderbird a while back and essentially what you're
seeing is a result of the interaction between your client and the way the
Mystic NNTP server reports message IDs. I know g00r00 has been aware of the
thing with IDs but has had limited time to prioritize it so far.
Mystic at present uses the post number in the message area as the NNTP
message ID so for example every area with posts in it will each have a message
with ID 1.
Seamonkey/Thunderbird on the other hand expects unique IDs per server so when
reading it will check its cache for a given message ID and just show you that
before trying to download anything. The client makes no distinction about which
message area/newsgroup you're currently looking at if it has that ID cached
already. Some other news clients happen to account for this possibility,
although the RFC doesn't require them to.
NNTP Message-IDs don't have to be numeric or have any correlation to the
message's slot in the messagebase so there's a lot of possible approaches to
generating them based on message contents or metadata.
... "No comment" is a comment.
g00r00
Dec 6, 2021, 12:20:25 PM12/6/21
to
St> Mystic at present uses the post number in the message area as the NNTP
St> message ID so for example every area with posts in it will each have a
St> message with ID 1.
I'll get you caught up with the latest happenings :)
Mystic has unique article IDs across all message bases and messages and the
server is capable of properly responding to them but its disabled. For example
here is a HEAD command sent to the NTTP server on my test system with this
system enabled:
head <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com>
And here is the response:
221 1 <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com> article retrieved - head
follows
From: g00r00
Newsgroups: local.test
Subject: msg #0
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:21:00 GMT
Message-ID: <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com>
The problem I face before I can enable it is this: JAM message bases do not
have any sort of message serialization other than the message number which can
change (making it not useful). Because of this, every message must have a
MSGID (even local messages) for this system to work.
If there is no MSGID, then Mystic NNTP cannot generate a unique Article-ID and
by RFC standard it must respond with a <0> for the ID. This would probably be
even worse than the current system.
The holdup for me to enable this is that I need to ensure every message has a
MSGID. The first step was to build the pack message base function in MUTIL to
automatically generate a MSGID for any message that doesn't have one when
packing. I did finish this part.
The next would be to make sure any message posted in Mystic has a MSGID even if
its a QWK network or local post and this part isn't done. After that I would
need to make sure any posts from NNTP, QWK packets, MUTIL Posts etc also
generate a MSGID even if local or non-FTN. The final step would be that the
tossers importing into Mystic (MUTIL and QWKPOLL) must also generate a MSGID on
the fly for any message sourced outside of your BBS that is missing one.
Then there is also the problem then with those who may use third party tossers
or utilities to post messages since they might not be able to guarantee that
every message will have a MSGID.
Long story longer, that is the challenge: Making sure MSGID exists on every
message on your BBS. The limitation isn't on the NNTP side of things at this
point. I can make sure Mystic does it but for those who use third party
utilities that could be problematic.
I am not sure how various newsreaders treat messages without an article ID (ie
an article ID of <0>).
... Old computers make great boat anchors
St> message ID so for example every area with posts in it will each have a
St> message with ID 1.
I'll get you caught up with the latest happenings :)
Mystic has unique article IDs across all message bases and messages and the
server is capable of properly responding to them but its disabled. For example
here is a HEAD command sent to the NTTP server on my test system with this
system enabled:
head <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com>
And here is the response:
221 1 <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com> article retrieved - head
follows
From: g00r00
Newsgroups: local.test
Subject: msg #0
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 18:21:00 GMT
Message-ID: <2.7cb38be...@mystictestdomain.com>
The problem I face before I can enable it is this: JAM message bases do not
have any sort of message serialization other than the message number which can
change (making it not useful). Because of this, every message must have a
MSGID (even local messages) for this system to work.
If there is no MSGID, then Mystic NNTP cannot generate a unique Article-ID and
by RFC standard it must respond with a <0> for the ID. This would probably be
even worse than the current system.
The holdup for me to enable this is that I need to ensure every message has a
MSGID. The first step was to build the pack message base function in MUTIL to
automatically generate a MSGID for any message that doesn't have one when
packing. I did finish this part.
The next would be to make sure any message posted in Mystic has a MSGID even if
its a QWK network or local post and this part isn't done. After that I would
need to make sure any posts from NNTP, QWK packets, MUTIL Posts etc also
generate a MSGID even if local or non-FTN. The final step would be that the
tossers importing into Mystic (MUTIL and QWKPOLL) must also generate a MSGID on
the fly for any message sourced outside of your BBS that is missing one.
Then there is also the problem then with those who may use third party tossers
or utilities to post messages since they might not be able to guarantee that
every message will have a MSGID.
Long story longer, that is the challenge: Making sure MSGID exists on every
message on your BBS. The limitation isn't on the NNTP side of things at this
point. I can make sure Mystic does it but for those who use third party
utilities that could be problematic.
I am not sure how various newsreaders treat messages without an article ID (ie
an article ID of <0>).
... Old computers make great boat anchors
Static
Dec 8, 2021, 3:20:26 AM12/8/21
to
On 06 Dec 2021, g00r00 said the following...
g0> Mystic has unique article IDs across all message bases and messages and
g0> the server is capable of properly responding to them but its disabled.
That's cool to hear at least. I hadn't guessed it was developed that far.
g0> The problem I face before I can enable it is this: JAM message bases do
g0> not have any sort of message serialization other than the message number
g0> which can change (making it not useful). Because of this, every message
g0> must have a MSGID (even local messages) for this system to work.
g0> ...
g0> Long story longer, that is the challenge: Making sure MSGID exists on
g0> every message on your BBS. The limitation isn't on the NNTP side of
g0> things at this point. I can make sure Mystic does it but for those who
g0> use third party utilities that could be problematic.
g0> I am not sure how various newsreaders treat messages without an article
g0> ID (ie an article ID of <0>).
Yeah third party tossers would certainly throw a monkey wrench regardless of
what Mystic does. Without a stored MSGID you could possibly use other fields to
generate a consistent NNTP message ID on the fly but then the question would be
what fields are sufficiently static and up to the task? Some combination of
datewritten + sendername + the message base name?
AFAIK at least for the Mozilla-based readers, they would treat everything with
message ID 0 as the same message, making the first article downloaded with ID 0
"it" for all of them. So yeah that'd probably be worse.
... DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something...
g0> Mystic has unique article IDs across all message bases and messages and
g0> the server is capable of properly responding to them but its disabled.
That's cool to hear at least. I hadn't guessed it was developed that far.
g0> The problem I face before I can enable it is this: JAM message bases do
g0> not have any sort of message serialization other than the message number
g0> which can change (making it not useful). Because of this, every message
g0> must have a MSGID (even local messages) for this system to work.
g0> ...
g0> Long story longer, that is the challenge: Making sure MSGID exists on
g0> every message on your BBS. The limitation isn't on the NNTP side of
g0> things at this point. I can make sure Mystic does it but for those who
g0> use third party utilities that could be problematic.
g0> I am not sure how various newsreaders treat messages without an article
g0> ID (ie an article ID of <0>).
Yeah third party tossers would certainly throw a monkey wrench regardless of
what Mystic does. Without a stored MSGID you could possibly use other fields to
generate a consistent NNTP message ID on the fly but then the question would be
what fields are sufficiently static and up to the task? Some combination of
datewritten + sendername + the message base name?
AFAIK at least for the Mozilla-based readers, they would treat everything with
message ID 0 as the same message, making the first article downloaded with ID 0
"it" for all of them. So yeah that'd probably be worse.
... DOS=HIGH? I knew it was on something...
g00r00
Dec 8, 2021, 12:20:30 PM12/8/21
to
St> Yeah third party tossers would certainly throw a monkey wrench
St> regardless of what Mystic does. Without a stored MSGID you could
St> possibly use other fields to generate a consistent NNTP message ID on
St> the fly but then the question would be what fields are sufficiently
St> static and up to the task? Some combination of datewritten + sendername
St> + the message base name?
In the case of the article ID it has to be more than that, since the article ID
needs to be able to consistantly resolve to a message. A date written and name
would be too vague. Sometimes when messages are processed in batch it'll be
possible for two messages to have the same datestamp from the same person.
Mystic uses a unique identifier and some hash values along with the primary key
of the message base to generate the article ID. This way it can figure out the
base and then more quickly perform a lookup using the hash first to limit the
result set (before loading the full message to check the MSGID for a match).
The NNTP server can create MSGID on the fly if they are missing so it will
always generate an article ID (which I have enabled now). My concern with
doing that was there will be added risk of message base corruption if the NNTP
server needs to do massive updates to generate unique IDs at the same time
something like message tossing is happening.
In order to reduce the amount of times the NNTP server needs to generate MSGIDs
I went back and changed things (in the next build) so that Mystic will always
generate MSGID even if its a local, newsgroup, or QWK networked base...
The only remaining thing would be to add MSGID on the fly when tossing messages
from QWK and Fido networks. I've added it into QWK tossing now too but for
Fido I am a little hesistant to do so. Technically adding a missing MSGID
would be changing message content and anytime Mystic's tosser has the option to
do that there is a subset of Fido people who have huge meltdowns over it.
St> regardless of what Mystic does. Without a stored MSGID you could
St> possibly use other fields to generate a consistent NNTP message ID on
St> the fly but then the question would be what fields are sufficiently
St> static and up to the task? Some combination of datewritten + sendername
St> + the message base name?
In the case of the article ID it has to be more than that, since the article ID
needs to be able to consistantly resolve to a message. A date written and name
would be too vague. Sometimes when messages are processed in batch it'll be
possible for two messages to have the same datestamp from the same person.
Mystic uses a unique identifier and some hash values along with the primary key
of the message base to generate the article ID. This way it can figure out the
base and then more quickly perform a lookup using the hash first to limit the
result set (before loading the full message to check the MSGID for a match).
The NNTP server can create MSGID on the fly if they are missing so it will
always generate an article ID (which I have enabled now). My concern with
doing that was there will be added risk of message base corruption if the NNTP
server needs to do massive updates to generate unique IDs at the same time
something like message tossing is happening.
In order to reduce the amount of times the NNTP server needs to generate MSGIDs
I went back and changed things (in the next build) so that Mystic will always
generate MSGID even if its a local, newsgroup, or QWK networked base...
The only remaining thing would be to add MSGID on the fly when tossing messages
from QWK and Fido networks. I've added it into QWK tossing now too but for
Fido I am a little hesistant to do so. Technically adding a missing MSGID
would be changing message content and anytime Mystic's tosser has the option to
do that there is a subset of Fido people who have huge meltdowns over it.
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