Fine tuners on banjos?
Banjo Dolt
Hello All:
I've noticed that violins have string fine tuning adjustment knobs in the
tailpiece. As notoriously difficult as banjos are to tune, can these be
purchased for banjos?
Thanks
CF
--
*****************************************************************
Cary Fries nowvo...@home.com
Bismarck, ND
*****************************************************************
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
mhofer
violins use friction peg tuners, tuned from 1st to 4th
EADG. The strings are very short too.
Many violin players use fine tuners on the E string, though I have seen
some use them on all 4 strings.
The E string being very tight and easy to break, its a little safety for the
fiddle player heres why.
On the violin the friction pegs are tapered, and you have to kind of guide
the tapered peg so its tight while tuning,
and sometimes when you are tuning your hand slips moves the violin over and
you end up having to start all over again. The fine tuners help with that,
once you tune very close, you can fine adjust with the small screw
The fine tuners hook in the tailpiece and are only good for adjusting about
a quarter pitch one way or the other.( hence the name fine tuner)
That little cushion keeps you from getting to anxious when using the
friction peg tuner especially like I said on the E string.
.
On the banjo its just a matter or turning a geared tuner.
Better tuners have turning ratios that allow easier and more stable tuning.
I cant say they dont make them for sure
but I have never seen banjo fine tuners nor do I see a need for them.
If you think banjos are hard to tune, pick up a mandolin
or worse yet, a 12 string guitar !! oh brother !!
good pickin to you
Michael
http://banjobasics.virtualave.net/
"Banjo Dolt" <nowvo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15fa0c41fb9add249896b5@news...
Peter Roehling
>
> Hello All:
>
> I've noticed that violins have string fine tuning adjustment knobs in the
> tailpiece. As notoriously difficult as banjos are to tune, can these be
> purchased for banjos?
Yes. Some folks who want to keep their banjos completely original use
them on their old-time clawhammer banjos. (They aren't really needed if
you have modern geared tuners.)
The kind that you want are the ones that just slip onto the string
between the bridge and tailpiece, and do not fasten to the tailpiece
itself. They work quite well.
P.
Marsh & Peg Hendrickson
an extra vernier tunerthat tuned all four strings at the same time. Said it
was great for tuning up or down to pl;ay with a CD, tape or radio.
Wouldn't be bad for a banjo, would it.
_____________________________________________________________
"mhofer" <mhofer...@chicagonet.net> wrote in message
news:tp0rkhc...@corp.supernews.com...
> hi Carey
> violins use friction peg tuners, tuned from 1st to 4th
> EADG. The strings are very short too.........
robb grant
> Hello All:
>
> I've noticed that violins have string fine tuning adjustment knobs in the
> tailpiece. As notoriously difficult as banjos are to tune, can these be
> purchased for banjos?
>
> Thanks
>
> CF
>
Gord Acri of acri picks fame? has a bluegrass 5-string with fine tuners at
the tailpiece and an unusual headless neck if I remember correctly. Don't
know if he still has a web site but you might look there.
robb
mhofer
Thats not a bad idea if you have use for one.
I seldom ever play with a CD radio or cassette personally. I play with
other musicians, and at home I play solo or with my synths, and if Im tuned
up Im usually ok anywhere.
My banjo has the planetary gear tuners, and it really does stay in tune
well, and is easy to tune.
My point was with fiddles , its the use of the friction pegs
that neccesitates using fine tuners, sometimes. Many violin players dont use
them at all too. I have one fiddle with no fine tuners on it and one with
one on the E string.
The one I have the fine tuner in is an old fiddle
made in 1790 and the pegs are wore down, so it helps alot
having the fine tuner. The fiddle with no tuners on it is relatively new,
about 6 now I think .It came with one on the E string, but I lent it to a
viola, violin teacher friend of mine for several months, and she removed it
and told me
she didnt like them and I never put it back on.
good pickin to you
Michael
http://banjobasics.virtualave.net/
"Marsh & Peg Hendrickson" <m&m...@hend.net> wrote in message
news:I96k7.214257$J37.54...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
OhBeeg1
the tailpiece and an unusual headless neck if I remember correctly. ..."
You remember correctly....plays it at Winfield every year. A couple of years
ago, he added an internal "B" bender (like Clarence had on his Strat), that
works off the forward strap peg he's installed on his banjo...way cool, once
you get used to using it... :-) Fits in a tenor banjo case for easy travel,
too...
"... Don't know if he still has a web site but you might look there. ..."
Good luck...you're about the 18,385th one in line to have one built...LOL
OhBeeg1
remove NOSPAM for email
Banjo Dolt
mhofer...@chicagonet.net says...
> My banjo has the planetary gear tuners, and it really does stay in tune
> well, and is easy to tune.
The trouble I have is that in turning the peg, the adjustment isn't a
nice smooth linear movement. I can twist the peg ever so delicately
and get way off the mark. I usually end up going back and forth ten
times before I get it right on the money. It's not the end of the world.
:-) It seems like the gears could use more reduction.
*****************************************************************
Cary Fries nowvo...@home.com
Bismarck, ND
*****************************************************************
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
The man who has no imagination has no wings. - Muhammad Ali
Peter Roehling
>
> The trouble I have is that in turning the peg, the adjustment isn't a
> nice smooth linear movement.
That probably ain't your tuners. Your strings are almost certainly
hanging up in the nut slots.
One can usually cure the problem by: (A) Opening up the nut slots a bit
wider with a small pattern maker's triangular file. (B) Shaving some
graphite dust from a pencil into each slot BETWEEN (not just on top of)
the string and the nut itself. The graphite dust will act as a dry
lubricant and allow the strings to move smoothly through the nut slots.
You must also watch out for old strings that are starting to get rusty.
The rusty portion is rough, and will not slide back and forth smoothly
whether it's lubed with graphite or not.
P.
W. Paul Mills
But, is this really a problem with the tuners? There are other factors,
such as the friction at the nut or bridge. A little pencil lead in the
slots helps.
Paul
Banjo Dolt <nowvo...@home.com> writes:
> The trouble I have is that in turning the peg, the adjustment isn't a
> nice smooth linear movement. I can twist the peg ever so delicately
> and get way off the mark. I usually end up going back and forth ten
> times before I get it right on the money. It's not the end of the world.
> :-) It seems like the gears could use more reduction.
--
* For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, *
* that whoever believes in Him should not perish... John 3:16 *
Ken Blake
news:tp0rkhc...@corp.supernews.com...
> hi Carey
> violins use friction peg tuners, tuned from 1st to 4th
> EADG. The strings are very short too.
BTW, is there any reason, other than tradition, why violins
don't use geared tuners?
--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup
Banjo Dolt
> That probably ain't your tuners. Your strings are almost certainly
> hanging up in the nut slots.
I don't call myself 'dolt' for nuthin' :-)
> You must also watch out for old strings that are starting to get rusty.
> The rusty portion is rough, and will not slide back and forth smoothly
> whether it's lubed with graphite or not.
>
> P.
Here in Bismarck, home of 1 and 1/2 banjo players, (more or less), I've
been buying strings that are rusty before I even put them on. I suppose
they've been sitting on the shelf for years. They are Martins...
If I were to place an order online, would someone please suggest
a good brand? And how about gauge? I started out on lights; my last set
were mediums, which I really liked. What would it be like to go to
heavies, I wonder....for a relative beginner? I found the mediums to be
easier to fret.
Also, is there an ultimate string composition? Many years ago when I
played bass, I swapped the stock fender strings for these reddish copper,
wound wires. The difference was dramatic. Instead of thump-thumping, it
sounded more like a piano, which I rather liked.
Regards,
CF
--
*****************************************************************
Cary Fries nowvo...@home.com
Bismarck, ND
*****************************************************************
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
One sees great things from the valley, only small things from the peak.
- G. K. Chesterton
Dean Dickason
don't know from what era]
I also have an aftermarket tailpiece for a tenor banjo that has fine tuners
built into it [maybe from the 20's]
Ken Blake <kbl...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:tp2u1tc...@corp.supernews.com...
JHON SMITH
SER#45249 WHEN THE YEAR IT WAS BUILT.
VALUE.
Andrew Diamond
that they don't stay in tune and (for us clawheads) often need a change in
tuning. Fine tuners wouldn't help. You'd spend just as long fiddling about
at the tailpiece end as you now do now the tuning end. They may make sense
on a vintage banjo with violin pegs that you don't want to mess with.
Anybody tried it ?
Andrew Diamond
"Banjo Dolt" <nowvo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.15fa0c41fb9add249896b5@news...
>
>
Andrew Diamond
limited travel (about a semitone ?) so wouldn't help going from, say, open G
to open C.
Andrew
"Andrew Diamond" <andrewUNDERSCO...@lineone.net> wrote in
message news:3b916660$2...@mk-nntp-1.news.uk.worldonline.com...
W. Paul Mills
http://www.juststrings.com/
I use D'Addario Light Guage -- on one banjo I use J60 ( Nickel
Wound 4th ), on the other J69 ( Phosphor Bronze Wound - a bit
red in color! ). Fast Fret or a similar libricant applied after
every use will also help prevent rust.
Other places that handle strings online are
http://www.janetdavismusic.com/
http://www.elderly.com/
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/
I have used all four of these sources for various music supplies.
But I usually get my strings from JustStrings.com.
Paul
Banjo Dolt <nowvo...@home.com> writes:
> Here in Bismarck, home of 1 and 1/2 banjo players, (more or less), I've
> been buying strings that are rusty before I even put them on. I suppose
> they've been sitting on the shelf for years. They are Martins...
>
> If I were to place an order online, would someone please suggest
> a good brand? And how about gauge? I started out on lights; my last set
> were mediums, which I really liked. What would it be like to go to
> heavies, I wonder....for a relative beginner? I found the mediums to be
> easier to fret.
>
> Also, is there an ultimate string composition? Many years ago when I
> played bass, I swapped the stock fender strings for these reddish copper,
> wound wires. The difference was dramatic. Instead of thump-thumping, it
> sounded more like a piano, which I rather liked.
--
Bart Veerman
>The rusty portion is rough, and will not slide back and forth smoothly
>whether it's lubed with graphite or not.
tinnitus, banjo: www.haruteq.com
banjo MP3's: www.mp3.com/bartveerman
**may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion**
Brittles
<< Banjos aren't difficult to tune with good geared tuners - the problem is
that they don't stay in tune and (for us clawheads) often need a change in
tuning. Fine tuners wouldn't help. You'd spend just as long fiddling about at
the tailpiece end as you now do now the tuning end. >>
Unless your tuners are worn, need lubrication, have flat spots, or your strings
get hung-up in the nut slots (or bridge slots) or if you have a cheap tail
piece that "gives" as you increase pressure, or if your head sags, or if it's
slippery and the bridge moves during tuning...or...or...or
Why do you think POP stars don't play banjos - Their audieces have an attention
span of about 30 seconds.
<<They may make sense on a vintage banjo with violin pegs that you don't want
to mess with.
Anybody tried it ?>>
Short answer: Yes, all the time. They work great.
Long rant-filled answer:
Peter R. covered this but perhaps not as bluntly as I would.
Don't put frigging geared tuners on a friggin vintage (before 1930) banjos
without speaking to someone knowledgeable in the HISTORY and construction of
THAT type of banjo.
(Just cause someone PLAYS one - does'nt mean they know squat about what it is,
who made it, how it developed, or how they are constructed, or set-up, or how
to repair them.)
Don't go to 4-string OR Bluegrass guys for info on openback 5-string banjos!
Don't go to Old-time OR Bluegrass guys for info on 4-string banjos!
Don't go to Old-time OR 4-string guys for info on Bluegrass banjos!
Don't go to any of them - if you play "classic fingerstyle" ;-)
They all have their own construction, aesthetic, and playing-style
requirements.
I've seen SO many good instruments ruined by people who are often very
knowledable and capable of excellent work on one type of banjo - but totally
clueless in the other types.
You DON'T do repairs to a 1900-vintage Fairbanks, in the same way that you do
to 1920's a B&D Silver Bell, OR in the same way that you would to a 1930's
Mastertone. (Not to mention 1990's import.)
Friction pegs work GREAT! *IF* you know how to fit them correctly, set up a
vintage open back banjo, and USE them properly. (Whether wood, ivoroid, ivory
or metal patent pegs)
One major problem with 19th century open backs - is that many were NOT designed
for the tension of WIRE strings - they were designed for gut (or later silk).
The pegs hold fine at these tensions.
The current fashion to tune oldtime banjos 2 frets high (to play in the fiddle
keys of "A" or "D") creates an even worse tension problems.
Many of the 1880 and prior banjos were designed for "A tuning" used in the
minstrel period - 3 frets lower than current "C Tuning". (The letter refers to
the 4th string pitch of gCGBD tuning - tuned 3 frets lower than today - like a
Seeger longneck.)
This high tension will ruin the necks (especially cherry) and will ruin the
lightly-built rims of the time. The neck is bowing, and the rim is warping, as
you tune - THAT's often why "It doesn't stay in tune."
The use of heavy modern gears on certain vintage banjos will damage the banjo
itself, damage it's value, and affect it's playability (because it's often out
of balance and "neck-heavy").
There... that felt good! (Isn't this how we "met" Peter R.? Deja Vu ;-)
Best-
Ed Britt
Please Remove *UNSPAM* from my address, to e-mail me.
Mike
when it comes to banjo tuners, less is more- it takes time to learn how
to twist your wrist in small increments, but it will come. The old
Grover 2 to 1 gear ratio is a lot toucier than the 4 to 1 (or sometimes
5 to 1) that the newer pegs provide, but even the best tuners still have
a smaller ratio than a lot of guitar tuners, which are mostly 14 to 1
these days or higher. It is possible to install side mounted tuners on
most banjos- the shaft holes in the peghead are the same size, but the
vertical banjo pegs keep the traditional banjo appearance. Since I like
the way they look, I got used to the touchier nature of all banjo pegs.
You'll learn how much movement you need to do in time.
regards,
Stanger
Mike
If you like mediums, make a note of the string guages that appeal to you
before ordering strings; mediums seem to come in a wider vareity of
string guages than light guage strings do.
If you are having rust problems with brand new strings, I'd suggest
trying a set of GHS stainless steel mediums. You can oder them from
FQMS.
http://www.fqms.com/
My personal favorites are Vega mediums. They seem to have a good
consistant tone life, and I like the green fuzz they use on the wraps
(all strings used to have this, but most don't now). The Vegas are
heavier than most, though, so they may not be your cup of tea.
Maybe a suggestion would be to order a half dozen sets that are all
about the same guage but different makes and have different materials.
You will find one set you like the best, for sure.
Stanger
Mike
hands are clean), and use the nose oil to slikc up the string where it
rests on the nut.
Stanger (who uses nose oil on his brackets, too)
Mike
Geared tuners for the violin are available, but most fiddlers are like
banjo players- they don't use them because of tradition. The geared
tuners do add some weight to the peghead of the violin, which could also
play a part in why they aren't used more than they are.
Stanger
Mike
No need to holler on alt.banjo- and it would be nice if you said
"please" or "thanks", too... we tend to respond better to manners around
here. Try a minor rephrasing of your inquiry and see if you get a
response.
Regards,
Stanger
Mike
One thing you forgot to mention about some of the old banjos that use
friction pegs- I know some of them had plugs of an oily wood installed
in the peghead, and then were later drilled and tapered to fit the
friction pegs. These wood collars really help to make the friction
tuners work smoother and more precisely. Can you share some comments or
knowledge about what wood was used and how they were done?
Stanger
Marsh & Peg Hendrickson
Understand your point about fiddles. I installed fine tuners on my
daughters fiddle for the same reason. Also, I've had several tenor banjos
with friction tunersthat drove me wild until I installed geared tuners.
Sometimes I get the urge to play along with my CDs and/or cassettes. It's
great practice for backup playing at full speed with the big boys. I have
each of my cds/cassettes marked with the tuning differences from "standard".
Seems like they are usually 10 to 15 cents low (I am sure that can vary
with different players).
My friend has a cassette player that can be tuned about 1/2 tone up or down.
I might get one of those so I don't have to continually tweak my banjo. I
guess if I had the patience I could do it via the computer also.
Eat, Sleep and pick.
P.S. My old RB 250 a touchy re tuning, but I just got a Stelling Red Fox,
and it is usually right on the mark. Maybe Stellling's Compensated Nut
really works.
Marsh
----- Original Message -----
From: "mhofer" <mhofer...@chicagonet.net>
Newsgroups: alt.banjo
Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: Fine tuners on banjos?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Peter Roehling
>
> There... that felt good! (Isn't this how we "met" Peter R.? Deja Vu ;-)
Yes, and I still disagree with you to some extent. While there's no
doubt that the finer examples of banjodom should be left in original
condition, I don't see a problem with updating a "working man's
instrument" with modern tuners if it makes life easier for the owner.
(And, after all, it IS his or her banjo, not ours to do with as we
will.)
We already live in a world where everybody and his brother feels that
it's both their right and their duty to tell us how we should live every
moment of our lives, and I have serious reservations about chiding some
stranger because he isn't living up to MY moral code vis-a-vis banjos. I
a very real sense, it's none of my damned business.
Besides, these things were made to be played, not just looked at; and
while they may be minor works of art in their own right, their primary
mode of expression was meant to be the music that was/is performed upon
them.
Now, all that being said: I frequently give out unsolicited advise on
the advisability of certain repairs and "upgrades", and there are lots
of things that I simply will not do, no matter the owner's wishes. A
tangerine metal-flake Stewart Special Thoroughbred just isn't an idea
that I can cope with.
P.
Banjo Dolt
> I don't see a problem with updating a "working man's
> instrument" with modern tuners if it makes life easier for the owner.
>
>
I collect old radios as a hobby. Some folks buy them for decoration;
I buy them to look at and play. It's sort of like old cars; some people
buy them just to have...but there is a certain faction that believes they
should be driven as well.
--
*****************************************************************
Cary Fries nowvo...@home.com
Bismarck, ND
*****************************************************************
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
Pleasure and joy are deceptive
Brittles
<< Peter Roehling >> replied
<< I still disagree with you to some extent. While there's no
doubt that the finer examples of banjodom should be left in original
condition, I don't see a problem with updating a "working man's
instrument" with modern tuners if it makes life easier for the owner.
(And, after all, it IS his or her banjo, not ours to do with as we
will.) >>
Actually, Peter - I DO agree with you.
The only problem is... how does a newbie (or a Bluegrass, 4-string, Oldtime
"specialist") tell the difference between the "finer examples" and a
"working..." version?
There is another thread on this group right now...
Anyone else here know WHO Charles Morrell was? Or when THAT banjo on the other
thread was made? After all, IT's just an old junker selling for $125.
Or is it? (And should we put geared tuners on it - to make it more playable?)
Morrell was one of the first NYC banjo makers - listed in the city directory in
1839. We're talking the PRIMORDIAL days of banjomaking, here - 4 years BEFORE
the minstrel craze started.
He sponsored THE famous NY banjo contest, in 1857. The prize was one of his
$100 banjos. (The equivalent of about $2000 today.)
By 1859 he had headed for San Francisco, where he continued to make banjos
until about1895.
I had one of his very early 1850's banjos in my hands once - about 25 years ago
- before I ever heard of him.
Didn't think it was worth the $250 the guy was asking for it. Heck - it wasn't
even playable!
Now, where did I put that hand drill...?
;-) It's a complex world.
Peter Roehling
>
> The only problem is... how does a newbie (or a Bluegrass, 4-string, Oldtime
> "specialist") tell the difference between the "finer examples" and a
> "working..." version?
Ah! THAT'S where the good advise can actually do a lot of good!
A short (true) story follows:
I was once dragged over to a strange household by my girlfriend, who
wanted to visit with one of the inmates. When I walked down the hall to
use the 'library' I noticed a somewhat moth-eaten #7 Whyte Laydie
hanging on the wall of a child's room. Hummmm!
So upon my return to the living room, I queried the homeowner as to
whether or not the instrument might be for sale. "No", I was told,
"Uncle Billy left that banjo to our son Tommy, and we could never sell
it." "He just loves that old banjo", said the wife, "He takes it outside
and plays with it all the time!"
Tommy was about six, which explained the moth-eaten condition of the
banjo.
So, giving up on my dreams of an easy conquest, I told them that the
banjo was worth (at that time) about a thousand dollars, and the change
in Mr. Homeowner was remarkable.
He immediately took the banjo down from the wall, saying "We'll put it
away for little Tommy until he's old enough to appreciate it!"
(Translation: "This sucker goes into the little S.O.B.'s college fund!")
I left them my card, hoping that greed would eventually win out over
family loyalty, but alas, I never heard from them again.
P.
Mike
Wow- when I read you collected old radios, I had a thought that you may
be able to help me out! I have an Epiphone Zephyr Regent archtop
electric guitar that was built around 1954. The thing was missing it's
two control knobs when I bought it (it had a couple of Gibson knobs on
it- they didn't fit the shafts; one was broken, so I took them off).
The original knobs were small white octagons with a pointer nib on one
of the octagonal sides. I vaguely remember seeing similar knobs on some
old tv's and radios in my childhood. Do you know where I could locate a
couple of these? I found a site where some originals are available, but
a pair would cost me $150, which I thought was outrageous...
Stanger
Mitch Dickson
1. they make the violin top heavy. 2. They kill the vibration of the
instrument just like a mute! A fiddle even uses the neck and scroll as part
of its vibrating body to produce it's tone, steel tuners will kill it dead,
or take out some of the blend of midrange overtones and ruin the sound. The
small fine tuners are used by fiddle players who use steel strings. Most
violinist use only one of these on the E string as the rest of their strings
are gut or gut like and they tune them with the pegs.
Fiddles are very hard to set up properly. Setting up a banjo is child's
play to cutting a bridge and "tuning" it and setting a sound post!
CU Mitch
--
"Come by and sit a spell with me at www.volstate.net/~mitch/ "
"Ken Blake" <kbl...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:tp2u1tc...@corp.supernews.com...
mhofer
I know this is getting a little off topic as far as banjos go,
but,
reading your post gonna jogged my thinking here.
Ive got an old fiddle , one made in 1790
can you still get gut strings for violins? And if so
where?
My dad found the fiddle in an estate auction, picked it up for a mere 35
bucks with a case !
It came with steel strings and a busted tail piece,
maybe thats why the tail piece broke, I dont know.
I replaced the tail piece and put new strings on it, sounds great, but now
Im wondering, how it would sound if I can restring it with the older type
strings.
And your 100 percent right about fitting bridges and setting sound posts.
LOL
good pickin to you
Michael
http://banjobasics.virtualave.net/
"Mitch Dickson" <mi...@volstate.net> wrote in message
news:DH5l7.20$g85....@newsfeed.slurp.net...
eh
string between tailpiece and bridge, and which gives you about a half tone
adjustment. They do not rattle or alter the tone, but of course I can't say
what they'd do on a banjo. On the Harding-fiddle they are used on the
e-string, some people use them on the a-string too.
Erling
Banjo Dolt
erling....@mail.dk says...
> For the Norwegian Harding-fiddle we use a fine-tuner, that clamps around the
Erling:
As it turns out, my problems were due to strings binding on the tuner
shaft, and inexperience.
Still, an interesting thread nonetheless.
You've got me curious about the Norwegian Harding-Fiddle...I am off to a
search engine.
Regards,
--
*****************************************************************
Cary Fries nowvo...@home.com
Bismarck, ND
*****************************************************************
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.
If you understand, things are as they are. If you do not understand,
things are as they are. - Gensha, Zen Master
--
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----