Bought a Deering Maple Blossom! Warning: long post
Perry
Deering Maple Blossom. I am completely in awe of this beautiful
instrument. I love it! Thanks you guys for helping!
I am posting this for 2 reasons:
1. To thank all the helpful posters who have given their considered
opinions about "Deering vs. Stelling vs. Gibson", "Newbie xyz", and
"Banjo buying advice" type threads. You folks helped ease all my
fears and confusion.
2. To add one more post to the database of the above type posts to,
hopefully, help some person like me who really needed some solid
direction.
Here are the things that factored into my decision:
First, I should say that I've been a guitar player for many years, so
my left hand knows what it wants to feel, and I had a good idea of the
sound I was looking for. Also, I knew I wanted a really good banjo in
the $2K range, so I was narrowing my search to Deering, Gibson, and
Stelling.
Maybe the most important bit of advice I swerved into was all the
folks saying that Deering and Stelling make consistently excellent
banjos. Because of that advice, I knew that when I actually got down
to the business of buying I could reasonably expect a mail order banjo
to be okay. I was worried about that, since I live very far away from
Janet Davis Music, Elderly Instruments, etc. (by the way, my apologies
if I get any names wrong....I'm a newbie).
I learned from Kyle, a banjo setup guy who was recommended in a post
here (http://banjosetupspecialist.homestead.com/) about the tones to
expect from maple, mahogany, and walnut. He told me to be cautious
about walnut banjos as they can be either really good or really bad
and they have a small number of "window of head tension intonation"
(4 down to only 1 window). Maple has more (4 or 5 windows), and
mahogany has the most (4 to 6 windows). Okay, so I don't know squat
about these "windows" but it sounds like more "setup" possibilities so
that must be a good thing. He said mahogany is more woody sounding
and maple is brighter. Okay, so now I knew I would be cautious about
walnut and that I was probably more interested in mahogany (*smiles*,
yet that's not what I ended up with). Kyle is a great fellow. We
traded several emails. Eventually I will send my banjo to him to be
setup. At first I thought it would be a good idea to have the banjo
shipped right to him and have him set it up then send it to me. Later
I decided I'd like to hear the banjo "stock" and get used to it, then
I'd know what I might want changed in a later setup.
I spent some time on the phone with the folks at Elderly Instruments
and Janet Davis music. Both very helpful. I had a long chat with
Janet Davis herself. That was a very enjoyable and informative
conversation. She sets up banjos before they get sent out, so you
know you're getting the instrument at it's best. That is really
reassuring.
The advice to play as many banjos as you can is pretty tough if you
live in an area where you don't have many dealers with quality banjos
in stock and you don't know anyone with the type banjo you are
shopping for. Still I was lucky in that a friend in California has a
Gibson Mastertone and a Deering Calico that I was able to play a while
back. So I could sorta remember that I preferred the Calico. Then I
lucked into finding a local music store that had a Gibson Earl
Scruggs, a Deering Maple Blossom, and a Deering Deluxe. I played all
3. Really disliked the Scruggs and this has everything to do with the
fact that, as a long time guitar player, I dislike Gibson necks and,
sure enough, here was *another* Gibson neck. Forget that one. Easy
decision...and for me a lot of the decision process has to do with
weeding out what I *don't* want. I have not yet played a Stelling but
I know I seek a warmer sound rather than a brighter sound. So I
wasn't too concerned about every getting to try a Stelling. But
someday I may...and I may want one! Same with Gibson and other
brands! I'm not putting any maker or model down.
Now the interesting part: none of these banjos was setup properly! By
accident the Deluxe was setup okay, so of course I just loved it and
it sounded much better than the more expensive Maple Blossom, which
sounded weak and hollow as if it were "echoing back into itself' is
the only way to describe it. I mentioned this to the banjo guy there
(he is my teacher) but it is not like I was insistent about it, or
even knew to ask if the things had been setup properly. I came back
in the next day and, thank goodness, this caring individual TOOK THE
TIME to setup all 3 banjos so I could try them again. Bammo! I fell
in love with the feel and the sound. I bought the Maple Blossom...it
was a no brainer. So fellow newbies, be warned, you can't even be
assured that what you are playing has been setup and how would your
(my) untrained ear know that was what the problem was?
Also, the Scruggs was prettier looking, has more "cool factor", and
better resale value. But I already knew what others have said here,
don't buy on looks or image. Sound and feel are everything.
I was able to make the purchase decision on the spot because of the
banjo itself, but I was also able to make the decision because of all
the advice that I have received online which gave me the confidence to
make the commitment.
I hope this post adds to the helpful information available to
potential banjo buyers.
Perry
Cliff Fitch
proud owner of a walnut Gibson RB-4, I have had no problems with set-up.If I
want it dark, I loosen the head. If I want it bright, I tighten it. Im sure
my fellow Stelling Staghorn owners would also disagree with you that a
walnut banjo is not the best choice. Cliff
"Perry" <gent...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:266944e3.02112...@posting.google.com...
Michael Nelson
> I would like to know more about these "windows" you talk about.
I think that's some kind of Kyle voodoo. I have never ever heard *any*
other setup person talk about "windows of intonation" as related to head
tension.
>> I learned from Kyle, a banjo setup guy who was recommended in a post
>> here (http://banjosetupspecialist.homestead.com/) about the tones to
>> expect from maple, mahogany, and walnut. He told me to be cautious
>> about walnut banjos as they can be either really good or really bad
>> and they have a small number of "window of head tension intonation"
>> (4 down to only 1 window). Maple has more (4 or 5 windows), and
>> mahogany has the most (4 to 6 windows). Okay, so I don't know squat
>> about these "windows" but it sounds like more "setup" possibilities so
>> that must be a good thing.
It's bullshit.
Michael
--
Michael Nelson San Francisco, CA
Bill Hays
While I've never had any direct personal experience with Kyle, I know
someone who has, and he reports that Kyle nearly ruined one of his banjos.
I also understand that one of the best-known banjo dealers going, an
expert on Gibsons as well as a man with a reputation for honest dealing,
won't let Kyle touch anything he sells. I won't use names since this is
hearsay and I haven't had the experience myself, but suffice it to say
that I remain a big skeptic about Kyle.
B.
In article <slrnau28jn.3...@seahunt.dyndns.org>,
Nancy Mumford
banjos and are in awe of his work :).. including me.. kyle may have his own
vacabulary and you may not aggree with him but to say it is all bullshit is
well..bullshit.. sorry for the cussin' :0 and i didn't post this to get in
any kind of "kyle" war, everybody has a right to take their banjos to
who-ever.. just neeeded to put my two cents in ...
nancy
Bill Hays <haysco.s...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:haysco.spammenot...@dialup-209.245.175.199.dial1.seattle1
.level3.net...
Zippy the Pinhead
"Bill Hays" <haysco.s...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:haysco.spammenot...@dialup-209.245.175.199.dial1.seattle1
.level3.net...
>
someone who has, and he reports that Kyle nearly ruined one of his banjos.
>I won't use names since this is hearsay and I haven't had the experience
myself, but suffice it to say that I remain a big skeptic about Kyle.
Well, you used Kyle's name, and in a way designed to impugn his reputation.
Yet you confess to a lack of first-hand experience.
You aren't going to let Kyle defend his reputation by naming his accusers.
Kinda sleazy. I don't know Kyle OR you, but you've revealed a lot more
about yourself in this post of yours than you have about Kyle.
And based on what you've revealed about each, I'm more inclined to give Kyle
the benefit of the doubt than you.
Bill Hays
banjo -- no one is allowed to see him do it, and he won't disclose his
technique.
It's all very well to trade on some mystical practice, but banjos aren't
rocket science and there's only a limited number of setup options
available. I want to know what's going on when it comes to my banjo.
What I believe (and have heard) he's doing is excessively cranking down on
the coordinator rods, which will ruin the rim at some point. The
short-term benefit of this, as the rim goes out-of-round (i.e., gets
ovalized), is that the round tone ring comes in very tight contact at some
points on the rim and is loose or out of contact at others, which affects
tone, sometimes for the better. But this is at the risk of destroying the
rim.
If you ask Kyle about this, he won't say. Why not? What does he have to
hide? (FWIW, isn't it interesting that "Zippy the Pinhead" doesn't
disclose his name?)
While the people I know who've had bad experience with Kyle may not speak
up, it seems to me that their side of the story deserves telling. Put it
this way -- Kyle's not getting his hands on my banjo. Maybe someone else
wants to think twice about it too.
Bill
In article <asau5...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Zippy the Pinhead"
Zippy the Pinhead
level3.net...
>(FWIW, isn't it interesting that "Zippy the Pinhead" doesn't
> disclose his name?)
Not worth much. Zippy learned the hard way not to put his name and email
address where idiots can find it and perpetrate mischief.
You have your opinion, I have mine. You don't need my name, and the lack of
a real name doesn't make what I wrote less credible. You made your case and
I made mine.
Bill Hays
at the Federal Trade Commission, which is probably why he doesn't want to
let us know who he is) is perfectly willing to make criticisms and cast
aspersions, all the while hiding in anonymity?
Specifically, he sniped at me for not naming names, to wit:
> You aren't going to let Kyle defend his reputation by naming his accusers.
>
> Kinda sleazy. I don't know Kyle OR you, but you've revealed a lot more
> about yourself in this post of yours than you have about Kyle.
Yup, I'm not afraid to reveal who I am. But Zippy won't tell us who HE is?
Who's being sleazy here? I'm perfectly willing to state who I am, what I
think and on what basis I think it. Don't know how to be much more honest
than that. What I'm not willing to do is drag into the discussion people
who, for reasons of their own, haven't decided to be public about their
experience. That's their decision, not mine.
I still wouldn't let Kyle Smith -- who solicits business very publicly and
therefore is subject to commentary -- within 10 feet of my banjo, based on
the experience of friends and others I've talked (or e-mailed) with who
have. Will Kyle publicly state what it is he does to adjust a banjo? Will
he state, unequivocally, that he DOESN'T crank down on the coordinator
rods? Until he makes that promise and opens up about what he does, IMO he
shouldn't be touching anyone's banjo. But, as the old (over 2000 years
old) saying has it, "caveat emptor." Or, as another old saying has it,
"forewarned is forearmed."
Bill
P.S. -- Zippy also needs to learn a little about logic and semantics. The
word "credible" means, 1. believable, plausible; 2. reliable (according to
the American Heritage Dictionary). So how does someone who hides in
anonymity conclude that what he says is believable or plausible when he
won't be accountable?
In article <asb7k...@enews3.newsguy.com>, "Zippy the Pinhead"
DEDCENTER
as they are originally, log those measurements, take it in to this guy, have
him adjust it, get it back, re-measure the measurments.....viola!! You will
know what he changed. Sound fair?
I don't even know where this guy operates from nor do I have an opinion one way
or another about this disagreement. Just seems like a logical answer to what
the man might be doing to achieve banjo adjustments.
There are scientific ways to measure head tightness, trus-rod nut tourque,
string height, neck position, bow/relief, etc.
Just a thought.
Ded
Michael Nelson
> Why doesn't someone buy a cheap banjo....measure all the possible adjustments
> as they are originally, log those measurements, take it in to this guy, have
> him adjust it, get it back, re-measure the measurments.....viola!! You will
> know what he changed. Sound fair?
Sounds fair, and sounds like a scientific method for someone who cares to
find out.
But I don't really care to determine what he does. My banjo sounds great
after extensive tinkering and parts replacements done by yours truly... and
if I want something changed, I don't have to ship it off somewhere to have
someone else do it.
I've also heard enough to not want to have this particular type of wizardry
performed on *my* banjo.
Zippy the Pinhead
You win.
Have a beer.
"Bill Hays" <haysco.s...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:haysco.spammenot...@dialup-63.214.10.213.dial1.seattle1.l
evel3.net...
DEDCENTER
after extensive tinkering and parts replacements done by yours truly... and
if I want something changed, I don't have to ship it off somewhere to have
someone else do it.>>
Fair enough, but, aw shucks, wouldn't it be fun to know? Like I said, just a
thought. Let us know if any body tries it.
Ded
DEDCENTER
as they are originally, log those measurements, take it in to this guy, have
him adjust it, get it back, re-measure the measurments.....viola!! You will
know what he changed. Sound fair?>>
Yes, I snipped my own quote. How pathetic is that? But the thought just hit
me that what I said could be done to anyone's instrument before you take it in
to be adjusted by someone else. As long as you know all the measurements to
take before hand you can log those down and re-check immediately after getting
the instrument back to detect the changes. It might take some special
tools....I'm thinking about maybe a torque-measuring wrench for the nuts on the
truss rods. Of course, the rods themselves can be tightened so you would have
to try to find a way to measure their tightness. Everything else seems pretty
straight-forward. Head tension, flange nuts, measuring the roundness of the
rim, tailpiece height and tightness, neck angle and relief/bow, string guage,
nut height, bridge placement,height, even fret height can all be measured
pretty accurately. Oh, yes, and resonator depth adjustments, if any, could be
detected also.
Somebody is going to say....well if you know how to do all that, why....well,
knowing how and what to measure and knowing the basics of or some secret of
banjo adjustment are two different animals.
Tell me, am I way off base? Ok, I'll stop ranting now. I probably have
rediscovered the wheel.
Ded
wygyg
here.....since people have some pretty strong opinions about kyle.....
quite frankly.....there is only one way to set up a banjo....but, there are
many variables.
he does not crank the coordinator rods....if it did...he would be out of
work.....that kind of thing gets around quickly if you ruin someone's
machine.
he likely understands the variables.....which tone ring works with which
heads....frosted....up....down....thick ....thin.....tail
peices....affecting the tone dramatically, the composition of them
also....which strings ring at which heighth.....how tension head plays with
bridge placement....
it is not an exact science....but, rather an art.....unfortunately, a lost
art.
the best artist i know at this is curtis mcpeek....he is the man as far as i
am concerned....after 32 years of doing this.....i am humbled by what he
know.
maybe kyle is on his way to that level.
just my thoughts....
roger (seemingly the only damn banjo teacher in central illinois)
"Nancy Mumford" <nmum...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:RD5G9.332101$r7.57...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
Lynn Oliver
Sorry Roger, but I know from first-hand experience that he does.
> the best artist i know at this is curtis mcpeek....he is the man as far as
i
> am concerned....after 32 years of doing this.....i am humbled by what he
> know.
I'd suggest you talk to Curtis and see what he has to say about Kyle. I
did.
Lynn