Dr P, can Dutasteride really induce reflex hyperandrogenicity?
pete2001
There have been many posts on here debating whether Finasteride can
cause reflex hyperandrogenicity. If you look at the clinical figures
from Dutasteride then it inhibits around 96% serum DHT at 2.5mg. I am
trying to reconcile how reflex hyperandrogenicity can be possible if
those figures are achieved? You say this always happens with
anti-androgens but how with that % of inhibition?
Can you explain.
Peter H. Proctor
>From: pds...@hotmail.com (pete2001)
>Subject: Dr P, can Dutasteride really induce reflex hyperandrogenicity?
>Date: 22 Dec 2001 14:24:30 -0800
>Dr P,
All strong antiandrogens cause reflex hyperandrogenicity. In fact, this
is why patients receiving these agents for prostate cancer generally get
castrated. It is even one reason why even with castration antiandrogen
treatment often eventually fails. Such agents are much more potent than the
5AR inhibitors.
Reflex hyperandrogenicity not only involves an increase in testosterone
levels, but an increase in androgen sensitivity. E.g., a gross increase in
local androgen receptors is reported with finasteride. This causes the
tissue to become more sensitive to other androgens besides DHT itself.
Finally, the usual teaching is that the only DHT that is
physiologically active is that produced at the local target organ. Thus
circulation DHT may not matter much, except as it reflects local production.
Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
http://www.drproctor.com
ERNEST PRIMEAU
snake oil site like hairlosshell.Ernie
pete2001
I see your point. But if you look at the evidence on Dutasteride,
2.5mg even 'locally' achieves well over 80% DHT inhibition. And Dr
Sawaya's studies on androgen upregulation show that while it may be a
problem for the first 4-6 months, after that it is not a factor and
the upregulation is not thought to be significant.
So from these statistics I just don't see how reflex
hyperandrogenicity can be a factor in Dutasteride. Infact if you
continue up the chain to 5mg, that inhibits over 90% DHT 'locally'. So
if there is any reflex hyperandrogenicity, are you saying it happens
much further down the line in say 3-5 years time, rather than after 6
months (when the data was taken)?
ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor) wrote in message news:<A468116945B4ADAC.A156CF22...@lp.airnews.net>...
ERNEST PRIMEAU
bluntness.Ernie
Jack & Irma Proctor
"pete2001" <pds...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:24374516.01122...@posting.google.com...
> Dr P,
>
> I see your point. But if you look at the evidence on Dutasteride,
> 2.5mg even 'locally' achieves well over 80% DHT inhibition. And Dr
> Sawaya's studies on androgen upregulation show that while it may be a
> problem for the first 4-6 months, after that it is not a factor and
> the upregulation is not thought to be significant.
>
> So from these statistics I just don't see how reflex
> hyperandrogenicity can be a factor in Dutasteride. Infact if you
> continue up the chain to 5mg, that inhibits over 90% DHT 'locally'. So
> if there is any reflex hyperandrogenicity, are you saying it happens
> much further down the line in say 3-5 years time, rather than after 6
> months (when the data was taken)?
There is no way to tell what is going to happen other than just to
do it. But we already know product of reflex hyproandrogenicity on much
stronger antiandrogens that the 5 AR inhibitors. There appears to be
little or no type-1 5AR in the follicle itslelf. So, in theory all
Dutasteride would do is increase reflex hyperandrogenicity without
increasing follicular DHT.
OTOH, type-one 5AR may play a bigger role in balding than we
think. E.g., "seborrhea" and seborrhec dermatitis may play a role in
balding. Thus type 1 5AR in the follicle may also be important, etc.
BTW, this shows that multilpe factors are involved, some not directly
concerned with the follicles themselve. So a priory predictions are ver
difficult.
chains
will get reflex hyperandrogenicity? Wouldn't the excess be aromatized to
Estrogen?
How would somebody react if they had 300% above normal free-testosterone in
their system?
Would they even be able to tell? Would they be going crazy with an
incredible libido while punching walls from being very irritated?
"Jack & Irma Proctor" <jackirma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:9dQV7.309662$W8.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
pete2001
year. It is most valuable to a lot of people.
Merry Christmas
"Jack & Irma Proctor" <jackirma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<9dQV7.309662$W8.11...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
Vitaly00
KCOBURN
> do it. But we already know product of reflex hyproandrogenicity on much
> stronger antiandrogens that the 5 AR inhibitors. There appears to be
> little or no type-1 5AR in the follicle itslelf. So, in theory all
> Dutasteride would do is increase reflex hyperandrogenicity without
> increasing follicular DHT.
>
> OTOH, type-one 5AR may play a bigger role in balding than we
> think. E.g., "seborrhea" and seborrhec dermatitis may play a role in
> balding. Thus type 1 5AR in the follicle may also be important, etc.
> BTW, this shows that multilpe factors are involved, some not directly
> concerned with the follicles themselve. So a priory predictions are ver
> difficult.
>
> Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
> http://www.drproctor.com
>
Dr. P when you say seb derm may play a role in balding are you drawing
a correlation between it and type-one 5AR or one doesn't have to do
with the other?
KC
BeverlyOmasta
agree.....tom
Peter H. Proctor
>From: dcdr...@hotmail.com (KCOBURN)
>Subject: Re: Dr P, can Dutasteride really induce reflex hyperandrogenicity?
>Date: 30 Dec 2001 19:17:14 -0800
>>
>> OTOH, type-one 5AR may play a bigger role in balding than we
>> think. E.g., "seborrhea" and seborrhec dermatitis may play a role in
>> balding. Thus type 1 5AR in the follicle may also be important, etc.
>> BTW, this shows that multilpe factors are involved, some not directly
>> concerned with the follicles themselve. So a priory predictions are ver
>> difficult.
>>
>> Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
>> http://www.drproctor.com
>>
>Dr. P when you say seb derm may play a role in balding are you drawing
>a correlation between it and type-one 5AR or one doesn't have to do
>with the other?
Agents that affect seborrhea have long been known to affect
balding. The earliest reference I can find is 1641. These agents may affect
either seborrhiec dermatitis or pattern loss per se. BTW, Another name
for the latter is "seborrheic alopecia", reflecting the increased activity of
the oil-producing glands attached to the hair follicle. The oil glands seem
to be dependent on type-1 5 AR. So inhibition of this might indirectly
affect balding.
Peter H Proctor, PhD, MD
http://www.drproctor.com
>KC
Peter H. Proctor
>From: ppro...@neosoft.com (Peter H. Proctor)
>Subject: Re: Dr P, can Dutasteride really induce reflex hyperandrogenicity?
>Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:33:52 UNDEFINED
> Agents that affect seborrhea have long been known to affect
>balding. The earliest reference I can find is 1641. These agents may affect
>either seborrhiec dermatitis or pattern loss per se. BTW, Another name
>for the latter is "seborrheic alopecia", reflecting the increased activity of
>the oil-producing glands attached to the hair follicle. The oil glands seem
>to be dependent on type-1 5 AR. So inhibition of this might indirectly
>affect balding.
There is a discussion of the difference between seborrheic alopecia
( AKA "pattern balding" ) and alopecia due to seborrheic dermatitis under my
FAQ at www.drproctor.com/baldfaq.htm . The similarity of names causes
confusion.
Dr P
KCOBURN
Dr. P can one draw the conclusion that dandruff makes someone lose their hair?
KC