How was Kosh poisoned (slight spoiler for 'The Gathering1)
Dean Ayres
A while back I posted to ask how the poison got through Kosh's encounter
suit in The Gathering. Someone said this was vagueky explained in Season 3,
and so I waited.
Now that the Sci-Fi Channel has shown Season 3, I'm still none the wiser.
Anyone got an explanation?
Dean Ayres
de...@bigfoot.com
Dean Ayres
Dean Ayres
Dean Ayres
Dean Ayres
so I tried again. And again.
Dean
Shaun Gerrans
wrote:
It's never been explained in the series but was explained by JMS a while
back, here's what he said:
"Sigh...look if this is *really* going to be an issue and I guess I'm
going to have to deal with this sooner or later....
In any book or script there's a list of things you know you have to hit
along the way, and the things you'd like to hit if you have time. Kind
of like visiting a big city. You may know you have to go by the Natural
History Museum, the Civil War Memorial, and a few other places, and if
you have the time, places A, B and C. This thread falls under the latter
category.
It doesn't need to be known to accept the sequence of actions as shown
in the pilot and series, and there was never really a chance to get into
it but if you *have* to know....
Deathwalker was sheltered by the Wind Swords, the same radical military
caste clan responsible for the attempt on Kosh. Deathwalker was one of
the Dilgar, who spread chaos and destruction in the course of their war,
wiping out whole worlds.
Sound familiar? Survival of the fittest. Sound familiar?
Though the Shadows were still "sleeping" their servants were still out
and about, doing a lot of their work. There was a Dilgar/Shadow
connection in this way...and if anyone's going to know how to poison a
Vorlon, it's a Shadow. This information would've gotten to the Wind
Swords through Deathwalker during her years of protection by them, and
when they decided to sabotage B5 and undermine the whole thing, why not
use this to turn the Vorlons against the whole operation? (Since only
the Shadows would have this information, and if they could make it
appear that Sinclair was responsible, that would mean Sinclair = Shadow
agent, and that, as they say, is that...though that's one reason why
they wanted or would have preferred to bring him back to Vorlon to check
this out more carefully.)
Remember that direct conflict and violence between the Vorlons and the
Shadows was prohibited by their agreements...they could only act through
intermediaries (until Kosh took it to a new level and all the gloves
came off).
The only problem with the above is fitting it into an episode a year or
two after the fact and having it not look like a mass of exposition
tacked on. You can't just go, "Oh, by the way, you remember when...."
It was the sort of thing I couldn't work into an episode that long
afterward, and always figured it was okay to leave that one tiny little
corner unexplained in detail, though I felt there was enough there to
hang together without it, but there was always a logic behind it.
jms"
Shaun
"I am a Ranger. We live for the One. We die for the One."
Man shall never reach the moon, for such a quantity of gunpowder would
be needed as to gravely injure the crew - Children's Encyclopedia 1926
Note to reply via Email remove NOSPAMTODAY
bigted
wrote:
>Hi
>A while back I posted to ask how the poison got through Kosh's encounter
>suit in The Gathering. Someone said this was vagueky explained in Season 3,
>and so I waited.
>
>Now that the Sci-Fi Channel has shown Season 3, I'm still none the wiser.
>Anyone got an explanation?
The answer is that it never got explained. The arc that never was ties
The Gathering and Deathwalker together.
The Minbari in The Gathering was to have been one of the Wind Swords,
the Minbari yobbo clan who gave Jha'Dur shelter after the Dilgar War.
As the Dilgar had been Shadow servants, Jha'Dur was to have been privy
to the Shadow's Big Book of How to Kill Vorlons, and be the one who
prepared the poison and the delivery mechanism in the patch.
======================================================================
Spamblocker on. To email me replace XX with @ in
zhadumXXbigted.dircon.co.uk ICQ#:8738657
======================================================================
Mark Blunden
>Hi
>A while back I posted to ask how the poison got through Kosh's encounter
>suit in The Gathering. Someone said this was vagueky explained in Season
3,
>and so I waited.
>
>Now that the Sci-Fi Channel has shown Season 3, I'm still none the wiser.
>Anyone got an explanation?
Well, in 'War Without End' we discover that Sinclair in fact went on (or
back) to become Valen, and probably knew Kosh 1000 years ago. So, the
theory goes, when Kosh met someone who appeared to be Sinclair in the pilot
episode, he trusted him and opened his encounter suit to shake hands with
him. This allowed the disguised assassin to poison Kosh using a poison
which - JMS tells us - was indirectly supplied by the Shadows specifically
for use against Vorlons.
--
Mark.
mar...@babylonian.demon.co.uk
To e-mail me, remove the 'spamoff.' from my e-mail address.
"Do you have any famous last words?"
"Not yet."
"'Not yet'? Is that famous?" - The Adventures of Baron Munchausen.
Tony Naggs
thusly:
>. So, the
>theory goes, when Kosh met someone who appeared to be Sinclair in the pilot
>episode, he trusted him and opened his encounter suit to shake hands with
>him.
This is all handled so much better in JMS's special edition of The
Gathering ...
--
"Still . . . no worries, eh?", said Rincewind, somewhere on the Discworld.
Luke Elson
Mark Blunden wrote:
> Dean Ayres wrote in message <71sht8$nn$1...@nclient5-gui.server.ntli.net>...
> >Hi
> >A while back I posted to ask how the poison got through Kosh's encounter
> >suit in The Gathering. Someone said this was vagueky explained in Season
> 3,
> >and so I waited.
> >
> >Now that the Sci-Fi Channel has shown Season 3, I'm still none the wiser.
> >Anyone got an explanation?
>
> Well, in 'War Without End' we discover that Sinclair in fact went on (or
> back) to become Valen, and probably knew Kosh 1000 years ago. So, the
> theory goes, when Kosh met someone who appeared to be Sinclair in the pilot
> episode, he trusted him and opened his encounter suit to shake hands with
> him. This allowed the disguised assassin to poison Kosh using a poison
> which - JMS tells us - was indirectly supplied by the Shadows specifically
> for use against Vorlons.
>
> --
> Mark.
> mar...@babylonian.demon.co.uk
> To e-mail me, remove the 'spamoff.' from my e-mail address.
>
> "Do you have any famous last words?"
> "Not yet."
> "'Not yet'? Is that famous?" - The Adventures of Baron Munchausen.
--
Luke 'Xenite' Elson
luke....@dial.pipex.com
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/luke.elson
Laughter is the language of the soul ... so it's o.k. to take the piss.
Mark Blunden
>But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
Well then maybe it was an energy poison. :)
Shaun Gerrans
<luke....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
>
No. They are crystalline entities.
<snip>
Mr 50%
>Dean Ayres wrote in message <71sht8$nn$1...@nclient5-gui.server.ntli.net>...
>Well, in 'War Without End' we discover that Sinclair in fact went on (or
>back) to become Valen, and probably knew Kosh 1000 years ago. So, the
>theory goes, when Kosh met someone who appeared to be Sinclair in the pilot
>episode, he trusted him and opened his encounter suit to shake hands with
>him. This allowed the disguised assassin to poison Kosh using a poison
>which - JMS tells us - was indirectly supplied by the Shadows specifically
>for use against Vorlons.
problem is where'd the hand come from ?, since he ain't or not
supposed to have one.
Anyway I thought Vorlens where supposed to be super teeps, and he
could'nt see that that was not sinclair ?
Mr50% _________________________________________________
* Time Tells Trend - Dow Site at :-
* http://www.geocities.com/WallStreet/6284/index.html
Mr 50%
>>But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
>>
>
>No. They are crystalline entities.
>
Yeh, they can only be killed by an old biddie with a grudge !
micheal rhian driscoll
Dean Ayres wrote:
> Hi
> A while back I posted to ask how the poison got through Kosh's encounter
> suit in The Gathering. Someone said this was vagueky explained in Season 3,
> and so I waited.
>
> Now that the Sci-Fi Channel has shown Season 3, I'm still none the wiser.
> Anyone got an explanation?
>
> Dean Ayres
> de...@bigfoot.com
Shaun Gerrans
50%) wrote:
>"Mark Blunden" <mar...@spamoff.babylonian.demon.co.uk> wrote :
>
>>Dean Ayres wrote in message <71sht8$nn$1...@nclient5-gui.server.ntli.net>...
>
>>Well, in 'War Without End' we discover that Sinclair in fact went on (or
>>back) to become Valen, and probably knew Kosh 1000 years ago. So, the
>>theory goes, when Kosh met someone who appeared to be Sinclair in the pilot
>>episode, he trusted him and opened his encounter suit to shake hands with
>>him. This allowed the disguised assassin to poison Kosh using a poison
>>which - JMS tells us - was indirectly supplied by the Shadows specifically
>>for use against Vorlons.
>
>problem is where'd the hand come from ?, since he ain't or not
>supposed to have one.
>
The hand you saw on screen was Lyta's interpretation of what she was
seeing while scanning Kosh.
In reality it was probably a tentacle.
>Anyway I thought Vorlens where supposed to be super teeps, and he
>could'nt see that that was not sinclair ?
>
He would have to be actively scanning "Sinclair" to know that it wasn't
the real Sinclair and since there was no sign that he was being
threatended he wouldn't be doing so.
Gordon Walker
> On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:37:22 +0000, Luke Elson
> <luke....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
> >But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
> >
>
> No. They are crystalline entities.
So all you need is a sharp blow with a hammer. Tinkle tinkle.
--
Maranatha
Gordon
* SEND NO UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL EMAIL (SPAM) *
For legitimate purposes: use 'btinternet.com' after the @
Rob Titman
> On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:37:22 +0000, Luke Elson
> <luke....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
> No. They are crystalline entities.
Isn't that against the Lor?
BFN,
Rob.
--
\/ Rob Titman (Comp-Sci Fresher)
http://www.ukc.ac.uk/php/rjwt1/ -- Updated 30/10/98
"And after a while noah realised that he was actually punching a baboon"
Mr. President
<snipped>
>He would have to be actively scanning "Sinclair" to know that it wasn't
>the real Sinclair and since there was no sign that he was being
>threatended he wouldn't be doing so.
You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
He could have at least left a note. :-)
Mr President
eart...@hotmail.com
VinceH
Shaun Gerrans <Sh...@yedor.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:37:22 +0000, Luke Elson
> <luke....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> >But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
> No. They are crystalline entities.
So, like, crystaline entities can pass through two million five hundred
thousand tonnes of spinning metal? Well, okay, not /all/ two million
five hundred thousand tonnes of it, but Kosh and Ulkesh certainly
passed through the hull of B5, without damaging it, when they were
doing battle.
VinceH
* No good deed goes unpunished.
--
Soft Rock Software, FREEPOST (BS7978), Westbury-on-Trym, Bristol, BS10 7BR
Mark Blunden
Ah, but since he remembers it happening, it's already happened. He probably
did tell Kosh "When you arrive on B5, you'll meet someone who looks like
me, but obviously isn't. Don't let on, just let him poison you and we'll
take it from there - don't worry, you'll just have a very bad tummy-ache
for a while and Nurse Lyta will look after you while you're in bed."
Shaun Gerrans
wrote:
>In article <364396ef...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> Shaun Gerrans <Sh...@yedor.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Fri, 06 Nov 1998 19:37:22 +0000, Luke Elson
>> <luke....@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>> >But aren't Vorlons energy beings?
>
>> No. They are crystalline entities.
>
>So, like, crystaline entities can pass through two million five hundred
>thousand tonnes of spinning metal? Well, okay, not /all/ two million
>five hundred thousand tonnes of it, but Kosh and Ulkesh certainly
>passed through the hull of B5, without damaging it, when they were
>doing battle.
>
There is a physical element to the Vorlons which is crystalline in
nature, it would be difficult to poison something that did not have a
physical body. Remember the medical scanner in Medlab which said
"Analyzing Crystalline Structure". Besides the Vorlons can reach out and
touch things.
So it would appear they can pass through the hull in some fashion even
with a physical element.
(BTW You can't actually have an entity composed of pure energy)
Shaun Gerrans
<eart...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>Shaun Gerrans wrote in message <36478cfd...@news.demon.co.uk>...
>
><snipped>
>
>>He would have to be actively scanning "Sinclair" to know that it wasn't
>>the real Sinclair and since there was no sign that he was being
>>threatended he wouldn't be doing so.
>
>
>You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
>***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
>
>He could have at least left a note. :-)
>
He may have told him, since he told him about a lot of other things.
Kosh itself might have accepted that he was going to be poisoned knowing
the outcome would not do him any long term harm.
VinceH
Shaun Gerrans <Sh...@yedor.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:21:04 +0000 (GMT), VinceH
> <vin...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> There is a physical element to the Vorlons which is crystalline in
> nature, it would be difficult to poison something that did not have
> a physical body. Remember the medical scanner in Medlab which said
> "Analyzing Crystalline Structure". Besides the Vorlons can reach out
> and touch things.
Yes, I do recall that - and I am happy to accept that the Vorlybabies
are crystaline in nature, until they pass through the hull. Then it
just doesn't work for me.
> So it would appear they can pass through the hull in some fashion even
> with a physical element.
To me that is an inexplicable inconsistency. <fx: Makes Pluto speak
that bit just for the sake of it>. Nothing more, nothing less.
> (BTW You can't actually have an entity composed of pure energy)
According to my understanding of things, I'm inclined to agree with you.
VinceH
* I forgot - I am not dealing with my equals here.
Mr 50%
>
>You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
>***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
>
>He could have at least left a note. :-)
Maybe he told him in vorlanesk
"When we gather run from the hand !"
iota
or.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> writes
>On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:00:06 -0000, "Mr. President"
><eart...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>
>>You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
>>***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
>>
>>He could have at least left a note. :-)
>>
>
>He may have told him, since he told him about a lot of other things.
>
>Kosh itself might have accepted that he was going to be poisoned knowing
>the outcome would not do him any long term harm.
>
I've often thought that this might be the case. This is probably wrong
but here's my take on it.....
(Spoiler Space for up to War Without End parts 1 and 2)
G
o
i
n
g
D
o
w
n
|
A
s
T
h
e
I
n
t
e
r
n
S
a
i
d
T
o
T
h
e
P
r
e
s
i
d
e
n
t
I seem to remember that the Vorlons (like the Minbari) were suspicious
as to whether this Sinclair was 'The One', after all, at this point in
time no one would have any idea of what the human Sinclair looked like.
Kosh, like Delenn, was more willing to go out on a limb and believe in
the prophecies than the rest of their particular races were.
It wouldn't surprise me to know that Kosh had been told by Valen exactly
what would happen and that Kosh would survive the attempted
assassination. So by Kosh allowing these events to take place, Sinclair
proved exactly who he was. He not only proved his innocence on Babylon
5, but he also (unknowingly) proved to the Vorlons that he was 'The
One', because these complicated events would have happened exactly as
Valen had predicted. Not only that, but if these events hadn't of
happened then the chances are, the Vorlons would have wanted to take
Sinclair back to Vorlon in order to ascertain whether he was 'The One'
or not (you saw how eager they were to get their hands (tentacles? <g>)
on him). Given that some Vorlons were doubtful about the whole thing,
this testing could have been very risky, and may have either injured or
even killed Sinclair in the process (which in turn would have had
devastating effects on the B5 universe). So by doing things this way,
Kosh sacrificed himself to save Sinclair. It's was kind of a Blind Faith
thing for Kosh to do.
As for the poison tab. As I understand it, we only see Lyta's
interpretation of the events that happened. So the hand we see is not
really Kosh's hand. Could it also be that the tab was not really a tab?
The poison could have been applied to Kosh by some other means suitable
for use against a Vorlon, but the closest way for a human to interpret
it would be as a poison tab being placed on the skin. It seems to me
that if it had of been as simple as a Poison Tab placed on the skin, the
Vorlons would never have let the doctor live, whilst he had knowledge of
how to kill a Vorlon.
Ok, so if you followed that here's one for you Oliver Stone conspiracy
theorists out there. It could well be that it was all a hoax on behalf
of old Koshy Baby. Could it be that he 'accidentally on purpose' made
sure that the Windswords (was that who it was? - I forget) gained a copy
of "The Idiots Guide To Killing A Vorlon", which contained false
information? This way there would be no risk to him personally or to any
other Vorlon should the information get out, but he could still 'test'
this Sinclair by faking his ill health, to see if the prophecies came
true. This may have explained why the Vorlons turned up so fast. If it
wasn't the right Sinclair and Kosh suddenly got up off the medical table
after supposedly dying, he would have had *a lot* of explaining to do
and would need a fast exit, or alternatively enough fire power to make
sure their were no witnesses. ;-)
Anyway that's my take on the subject, it could well be just a goof in
the Pilot. ;-)
--
iota
"Our thoughts form the universe. They always matter." - G'kar, Babylon 5
Mark Blunden
>In article <3648a572...@news.demon.co.uk>,
> Shaun Gerrans <Sh...@yedor.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 18:21:04 +0000 (GMT), VinceH
>> <vin...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> There is a physical element to the Vorlons which is crystalline in
>> nature, it would be difficult to poison something that did not have
>> a physical body. Remember the medical scanner in Medlab which said
>> "Analyzing Crystalline Structure". Besides the Vorlons can reach out
>> and touch things.
>
>Yes, I do recall that - and I am happy to accept that the Vorlybabies
>are crystaline in nature, until they pass through the hull. Then it
>just doesn't work for me.
My own personal explanation is as follows: The Vorlons are the ultimate
telekenetic lifeform, capable of manipulating the matter and energy of
their own bodies at will. For convenience, they usually create a
crystalline form to contain their mental structure, since it's easy to
manipulate and means they don't have to constantly maintain their
consciousness through sheer willpower, but at need they can leave their
bodies entirely, telekinetically manipulating energy and forcefields to
maintain their neural structure. It is this form which can be transferred,
completely or partially, into other beings, and it is this form in which
the bad Kosh chose to fight Sheridan's forces, and was eventually defeated.
As an aside, when I watched the episode in question recently (Falling
Towards Apotheosis), it seemed to me that when Kosh2 was in his energy
form, he bore a distinct resemblance in basic shape and outline to a
Shadow. I wonder if perhaps Vorlons and Shadows were once the same race,
but while the Vorlons used telekenesis to remake themselves, the Shadows
chose to retain their physical form?
Simon Jones
VinceH <vin...@softrock.co.uk> wrote:
> So, like, crystaline entities can pass through two million five hundred
> thousand tonnes of spinning metal? Well, okay, not /all/ two million
> five hundred thousand tonnes of it, but Kosh and Ulkesh certainly
> passed through the hull of B5, without damaging it, when they were
> doing battle.
Actually, they burn through the roof, so I'm surprised the whole station
didn't depressurise.
Possible that their lattice is incredibly minute and can slip casually
between the molecules of the station. :)
Simon.
* I am ok. I am ok. I'm not ok.
--
SJ Productions -
Email: sjprod...@argonet.co.uk
Website: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/chestnuts
Reviews, AWG, Yellow Wall, Revolution of the Mind...
Shaun Gerrans
<mar...@spamoff.babylonian.demon.co.uk> wrote:
<Excellent theory snipped>
>
>As an aside, when I watched the episode in question recently (Falling
>Towards Apotheosis), it seemed to me that when Kosh2 was in his energy
>form, he bore a distinct resemblance in basic shape and outline to a
His natural form didn't look much like a Shadow to me. Maybe Ulkesh was
manipulating you through the TV screen ;)
>Shadow. I wonder if perhaps Vorlons and Shadows were once the same race,
>but while the Vorlons used telekenesis to remake themselves, the Shadows
>chose to retain their physical form?
>
No they are completely seperate races.
Shaun Gerrans
50%) wrote:
>"Mr. President" <eart...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote :
>
>>
>>You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
>>***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
>>
>>He could have at least left a note. :-)
>
>Maybe he told him in vorlanesk
>
>"When we gather run from the hand !"
>
Kosh scratches it's 'head'
<wibble><burp><honk>What is that supposed to mean??<parp><burble>
Shaun Gerrans
wrote:
>In article <3648a8f8...@news.demon.co.uk>, Shaun Gerrans <Shaun@yed
>or.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> writes
>>On Tue, 10 Nov 1998 11:00:06 -0000, "Mr. President"
>><eart...@hotmailNOSPAM.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>
>>>You'd think Kosh would've been warned though. Unless
>>>***** was a total bastard and didn't bother to mention it.
>>>
>>>He could have at least left a note. :-)
>>>
>>
The Vorlons knew that someone called Sinclair had been assigned to B5 at
the behest of the Minbari and that Delenn certainly believed he might be
Valen. The Vorlons were aware that Valen was originally called Sinclair
and where he came from, however until Kosh had a chance to look at
Sinclair they wouldn't be able to confirm it was him.
(Kosh knew what he looked like, he was there when Valen arrived with B4)
>It wouldn't surprise me to know that Kosh had been told by Valen exactly
>what would happen and that Kosh would survive the attempted
Yes. Most if not all of the Minbari prophecies and the future knowledge
given to the Vorlons originated with Sinclair. Although he wouldn't have
told them absolutely everything.
>assassination. So by Kosh allowing these events to take place, Sinclair
>proved exactly who he was. He not only proved his innocence on Babylon
>5, but he also (unknowingly) proved to the Vorlons that he was 'The
Unnecessary since Kosh knew who he was.
>One', because these complicated events would have happened exactly as
>Valen had predicted. Not only that, but if these events hadn't of
>happened then the chances are, the Vorlons would have wanted to take
>Sinclair back to Vorlon in order to ascertain whether he was 'The One'
>or not (you saw how eager they were to get their hands (tentacles? <g>)
>on him). Given that some Vorlons were doubtful about the whole thing,
They wanted him since it looked like B5 and Sinclair had come under the
influence of the Shadows. The Vorlons were unsure about Sinclair being
the Sinclair who became Valen.
>this testing could have been very risky, and may have either injured or
>even killed Sinclair in the process (which in turn would have had
>devastating effects on the B5 universe). So by doing things this way,
Which was the Shadow's intent.
>Kosh sacrificed himself to save Sinclair. It's was kind of a Blind Faith
>thing for Kosh to do.
>
>As for the poison tab. As I understand it, we only see Lyta's
>interpretation of the events that happened. So the hand we see is not
>really Kosh's hand. Could it also be that the tab was not really a tab?
No, the tab was real.
>The poison could have been applied to Kosh by some other means suitable
>for use against a Vorlon, but the closest way for a human to interpret
>it would be as a poison tab being placed on the skin. It seems to me
>that if it had of been as simple as a Poison Tab placed on the skin, the
Which it was.
>Vorlons would never have let the doctor live, whilst he had knowledge of
>how to kill a Vorlon.
>
Not necessarily.
>Ok, so if you followed that here's one for you Oliver Stone conspiracy
>theorists out there. It could well be that it was all a hoax on behalf
>of old Koshy Baby. Could it be that he 'accidentally on purpose' made
Nope, no hoax.
The Shadows knew exactly how to kill a Vorlon and gave the Dilgar the
information and Deathwalker passed this on to the Wind Swords and
manipulated them into carrying out the Shadows plan to discredit B5.
<snip>
iota
or.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> writes
<snip>
>>(Spoiler Space for up to War Without End parts 1 and 2)
And a possible small spoiler for Book #9 "To Dream In The City Of
Sorrows"
Whilst I wouldn't like to argue with you Shaun (having lurked here for
several months I know (and admire greatly) how much you know about
Babylon 5), I wonder if you could clear something up for me. I had a
feeling that when Sinclair went back through time, he also transformed
into a Minbari (or near Minbari) form. I may be recalling this wrongly
as it is a long time since I saw WWE part 2 (I was not able to record it
at the time, nor do I have access to Sky :( *sob*), but if I have
remembered correctly and this was the case, surely Kosh would have met
Valen on B4 *after* Sinclair's transformation, and would not have known
what the human Sinclair looked like until Kosh's arrival on B5? Whilst
no doubt Valen and Sinclair would have had similar features, there would
be enough differences between the two to cast doubt on any visual
recognition alone. If you compare the old Delenn with the 'new improved'
version, although they look similar, going by looks alone you could not
(with 100 percent certainty) say they were the same person, and I had a
feeling the transformation between Sinclair and Valen was even greater
than Delenn's. In the book "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows" no one
noticed any similarities between the statues of Valen and Sinclair. Even
Marcus only saw some small similarity between the two after he finally
realised exactly who Valen was.
*If* I have remembered this correctly, then surely when Kosh meets
Sinclair on B5, the only way he could tell for sure if this human (who
kind of looks similar to Valen, who has the right job and name, etc. but
who could easily be under the control of the Shadows) really is his old
friend, would be to scan him?
Ok I admit that maybe in the excitement of meeting his old drinking
buddy, combined with 'jet lag' and a dicky tummy after eating the
terrible in-flight meal, Kosh may have let his guard down, but even if
he did not pick up anything telepathically surely he would have been
able to detect the enormous amount of energy being given off by the
changeling net?
As I said, my recollection of WWE is pretty poor, so I apologise if the
above is based on a false recollection.
<snip>
>>Vorlons would never have let the doctor live, whilst he had knowledge of
>>how to kill a Vorlon.
>>
>
>Not necessarily.
If you were playing at 'God', would you want your subjects to have
knowledge of how to kill you, especially when some of those subjects
could be under, or become under, the influence of your arch rivals, or
use it for their own purposes? The Vorlons killed Deathwalker because
"You are not ready for immortality", maybe it was just coincidence that
she was also arguably the only other non-shadow/first-one to know
exactly how to kill a Vorlon.
>
>>Ok, so if you followed that here's one for you Oliver Stone conspiracy
>>theorists out there. It could well be that it was all a hoax on behalf
>>of old Koshy Baby. Could it be that he 'accidentally on purpose' made
>
>Nope, no hoax.
No hoax today. Hoax tomorrow. There's always a hoax tomorrow. ;-)
iota
<io...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
>*If* I have remembered this correctly, then surely when Kosh meets
>Sinclair on B5, the only way he could tell for sure if this human (who
>kind of looks similar to Valen, who has the right job and name, etc. but
>who could easily be under the control of the Shadows) really is his old
>friend, would be to scan him?
>
>Ok I admit that maybe in the excitement of meeting his old drinking
>buddy, combined with 'jet lag' and a dicky tummy after eating the
>terrible in-flight meal, Kosh may have let his guard down, but even if
>he did not pick up anything telepathically surely he would have been
>able to detect the enormous amount of energy being given off by the
>changeling net?
Ooooops, sorry - missed out a paragraph - That will teach me to post at
3.30am. :-( I meant to also say something like...
Given all this, isn't it more than likely that Kosh knew what was going
to happen to him? If so, why did he go through with it? I know it can be
said that he went through with it because that is how Valen told him it
would happen, but this seems too simple to me. Kosh could have easily
killed the assassin and got the same outcome. The only two things (that
is, the only two I can remember at this time of night <lg>) that
wouldn't have happened if events had altered were the old "There is a
hole in your mind" outburst by the assassin, and Lyta's scan of Kosh.
But both of these things could have been instigated by Kosh and maybe
Delenn at a later date.
>As I said, my recollection of WWE is pretty poor, so I apologise if the
>above is based on a false recollection.
Sorry about the cock-up and if this has made no sense, or I've missed
something obvious, but at the moment the lights are on but nobody is
home. :-/
--
iota
Stormbringer
>
>Whilst I wouldn't like to argue with you Shaun
uh-oh...
Fight! (and if you will..) Fight!
>(having lurked here for
>several months I know (and admire greatly) how much you know about
>Babylon 5), I wonder if you could clear something up for me. I had a
>feeling that when Sinclair went back through time, he also transformed
>into a Minbari (or near Minbari) form. I may be recalling this wrongly
>as it is a long time since I saw WWE part 2 (I was not able to record it
>at the time, nor do I have access to Sky :( *sob*), but if I have
>remembered correctly and this was the case, surely Kosh would have met
>Valen on B4 *after* Sinclair's transformation, and would not have known
>what the human Sinclair looked like until Kosh's arrival on B5? Whilst
>no doubt Valen and Sinclair would have had similar features, there would
>be enough differences between the two to cast doubt on any visual
>recognition alone. If you compare the old Delenn with the 'new improved'
>version, although they look similar, going by looks alone you could not
>(with 100 percent certainty) say they were the same person, and I had a
>feeling the transformation between Sinclair and Valen was even greater
>than Delenn's. In the book "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows" no one
>noticed any similarities between the statues of Valen and Sinclair. Even
>Marcus only saw some small similarity between the two after he finally
>realised exactly who Valen was.
<snip>
Personally, here are my ideas on the subject.
Vorlons are powerful beings.
They operate on many levels, which the humans are only just beginning o
explore. Telepathic abilities, for example.
Firstly, I would say that you would recognise somebody if you had hung
around with them for a while, or at least recognise their prominent
traits.
Secondly, Maybe Valen once mentioned to Kosh; "You know something really
weird..? I used to be Captain Jeffrey Sinclair from Babylon 5, like,
way way in the future... how cool is that?"
Thirgly.. to return to my original point; perhaps Kosh (or indeed any
Vorlon) would recognise Sinclair via other means. Perhaps he sensed his
aura or some other weird stuff. That seems more likely.
Well, that's my thoughts, anyway. :)
>>-8>
** Storm **
Matthew Savill
No one noticed the similarity because after his transformation Sinclair
looks rather different to before, and I think in "TDitCoS" it's
mentioned that Marcus thinks that the statue "didn't look much like the
man he knew" because it was a sort of idealised hero-worship image.
On the other points, the Vorlons knew that Sinclair was valen, or at
least Kosh did, probably because Sinclair told him. The Vorlons, don't
forget, were with B4 when the Minbari met it in the past.
Furthermore....
oh arse, spoilers for the remastered Gathering.
24
23
22
21
20
19
18
?? 17 is missing!
16
15
14
13
12
11
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
In the remastered Gathering Kosh recognises 'Sinclair' (in reality the
disguised assassin) as Valen, and greets him with something like
"Entil'Zha Valen", allowing the assassin to slap the poison patch on.
iota
<st...@stormy.naughtylittledemon.co.uk> writes
>In article <RsnllBAW...@rbpc.demon.co.uk>, iota
><io...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wibbles
>>
>>Whilst I wouldn't like to argue with you Shaun
>
>uh-oh...
>
>Fight! (and if you will..) Fight!
>
LOL! You're right that did come across as some sort of half arsed
challenge - the *complete* opposite of what I meant it to mean.
So to clear things up, just in case anyone accidentally takes offence...
What I was meaning was that the points I put across in my previous post
were not me being argumentative towards Shaun (who I happened to be
replying too) and saying "I'm right, you're wrong", they were just me
explaining the way I look at this particular story line, and saying "but
I'm confused as things still don't add up, so am I going wrong somewhere
with my logic/B5 knowledge and if so, could Shaun or any other of you B5
experts tell me where". :-)
Clear as mud? I thought so. :-/
Stormbringer
<io...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wibbles
I wouldn't worry about causing offence.
It's not as if you've posted binaries or anything. :)
Take a look around the group, though, there's a few other threads
dealing with the same subject at the mo, that Uncle Shaun is dealing
with the best he can.... ;)
>>-8>
** Storm **
David Burnett
VinceH <vin...@softrock.co.uk> writes:
>
> So, like, crystaline entities can pass through two million five hundred
> thousand tonnes of spinning [snip...] without damaging it, when they were
> doing battle.
>
No damage aprart from the holes they left behind..they melted
there way through the ceilling, if you watch closely you can
see the hole they left.
--
Dave, on his linux box...
Speed Kills - Use Windows!
Rob Titman
wrote:
>oh arse, spoilers for the remastered Gathering.
>24
>23
>22
I wouldn't worry about it... Mr Brack's already spoiled us on that one
with his review.
We do call him a regular... but only during comparisons to bowel
movements.
Shaun Gerrans
wrote:
>In article <3649f340...@news.demon.co.uk>, Shaun Gerrans <Shaun@yed
>or.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> writes
>>On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 13:39:43 +0000, iota <io...@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>(Spoiler Space for up to War Without End parts 1 and 2)
>
>And a possible small spoiler for Book #9 "To Dream In The City Of
>Sorrows"
>
>>>
>>>I seem to remember that the Vorlons (like the Minbari) were suspicious
>>>as to whether this Sinclair was 'The One', after all, at this point in
>>>time no one would have any idea of what the human Sinclair looked like.
>>>Kosh, like Delenn, was more willing to go out on a limb and believe in
>>>the prophecies than the rest of their particular races were.
>>>
>>
>>The Vorlons knew that someone called Sinclair had been assigned to B5 at
>>the behest of the Minbari and that Delenn certainly believed he might be
>>Valen. The Vorlons were aware that Valen was originally called Sinclair
>>and where he came from, however until Kosh had a chance to look at
>>Sinclair they wouldn't be able to confirm it was him.
>>
>>(Kosh knew what he looked like, he was there when Valen arrived with B4)
>
>Whilst I wouldn't like to argue with you Shaun (having lurked here for
<twitter>Impudent!<honk>
Suddenly sensors begin detecting a non-localised energy phenomenon.
;-)
>several months I know (and admire greatly) how much you know about
>Babylon 5), I wonder if you could clear something up for me. I had a
>feeling that when Sinclair went back through time, he also transformed
>into a Minbari (or near Minbari) form. I may be recalling this wrongly
Near Minbari would be a more accurate description.
>as it is a long time since I saw WWE part 2 (I was not able to record it
>at the time, nor do I have access to Sky :( *sob*), but if I have
>remembered correctly and this was the case, surely Kosh would have met
>Valen on B4 *after* Sinclair's transformation, and would not have known
Yes.
>what the human Sinclair looked like until Kosh's arrival on B5? Whilst
>no doubt Valen and Sinclair would have had similar features, there would
>be enough differences between the two to cast doubt on any visual
Valen would have told Kosh what to expect and his features as a Minbari
are not that different to those when he was human (excepting his being
bald with a bone of course).
>recognition alone. If you compare the old Delenn with the 'new improved'
>version, although they look similar, going by looks alone you could not
>(with 100 percent certainty) say they were the same person, and I had a
>feeling the transformation between Sinclair and Valen was even greater
>than Delenn's. In the book "To Dream In The City Of Sorrows" no one
No, it was mostly an external transformation.
>noticed any similarities between the statues of Valen and Sinclair. Even
>Marcus only saw some small similarity between the two after he finally
>realised exactly who Valen was.
>
The statues were deliberately made to be vague, so that he could not be
recognised as Sinclair in the future.
>*If* I have remembered this correctly, then surely when Kosh meets
>Sinclair on B5, the only way he could tell for sure if this human (who
>kind of looks similar to Valen, who has the right job and name, etc. but
>who could easily be under the control of the Shadows) really is his old
>friend, would be to scan him?
>
Scanning him would confirm it.
My take on it is that Kosh was excited at seeing his old friend again
and rushed to greet him without being as careful as he could have been.
>Ok I admit that maybe in the excitement of meeting his old drinking
>buddy, combined with 'jet lag' and a dicky tummy after eating the
>terrible in-flight meal, Kosh may have let his guard down, but even if
It's the salted peanuts, they'll get you every time.
>he did not pick up anything telepathically surely he would have been
>able to detect the enormous amount of energy being given off by the
>changeling net?
>
If he wasn't looking for it then he wouldn't have detected it.
>As I said, my recollection of WWE is pretty poor, so I apologise if the
>above is based on a false recollection.
>
><snip>
>
>>>Vorlons would never have let the doctor live, whilst he had knowledge of
>>>how to kill a Vorlon.
>>>
>>
>>Not necessarily.
>
>If you were playing at 'God', would you want your subjects to have
>knowledge of how to kill you, especially when some of those subjects
>could be under, or become under, the influence of your arch rivals, or
The arch rivals would tell any agent they would use how to kill a Vorlon
in any case so that doesn't affect anything.
I doubt the Vorlons actually cared.
>use it for their own purposes? The Vorlons killed Deathwalker because
>"You are not ready for immortality", maybe it was just coincidence that
That was a different situation, they didn't want the knowledge of
immortality to get out, aside from that they didn't really care about
Deathwalker.
>she was also arguably the only other non-shadow/first-one to know
>exactly how to kill a Vorlon.
>
The Dilgar would have known and there are others.
Shaun Gerrans
wrote:
>In article <RsnllBAW...@rbpc.demon.co.uk>, iota
><io...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
><snip>
>
>>*If* I have remembered this correctly, then surely when Kosh meets
>>Sinclair on B5, the only way he could tell for sure if this human (who
>>kind of looks similar to Valen, who has the right job and name, etc. but
>>who could easily be under the control of the Shadows) really is his old
>>friend, would be to scan him?
>>
>>Ok I admit that maybe in the excitement of meeting his old drinking
>>buddy, combined with 'jet lag' and a dicky tummy after eating the
>>terrible in-flight meal, Kosh may have let his guard down, but even if
>>he did not pick up anything telepathically surely he would have been
>>able to detect the enormous amount of energy being given off by the
>>changeling net?
>
>Ooooops, sorry - missed out a paragraph - That will teach me to post at
>3.30am. :-( I meant to also say something like...
>
>Given all this, isn't it more than likely that Kosh knew what was going
>to happen to him? If so, why did he go through with it? I know it can be
I'm more inclined to say that Valen did not tell him that he was going
to be poisoned, Valen learned from the Vorlons very well. He only told
them what was necessary and no more.
>said that he went through with it because that is how Valen told him it
>would happen, but this seems too simple to me. Kosh could have easily
>killed the assassin and got the same outcome. The only two things (that
If he had known, that could have been extremely dangerous, the Shadows
would know that a Vorlon had moved against their agent. Would know that
the Vorlons knew it was them who had sent that agent. They might have
moved before we were ready for them.
>is, the only two I can remember at this time of night <lg>) that
>wouldn't have happened if events had altered were the old "There is a
>hole in your mind" outburst by the assassin, and Lyta's scan of Kosh.
>But both of these things could have been instigated by Kosh and maybe
>Delenn at a later date.
>
There are many events down the line, not necessarily known to Valen or
Kosh that relied on events happening as they transpired.
<snip>
Cyril Kiely
Mark Blunden <mar...@spamoff.babylonian.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<910811517.23155.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> As an aside, when I watched the episode in question recently (Falling
> Towards Apotheosis), it seemed to me that when Kosh2 was in his energy
> form, he bore a distinct resemblance in basic shape and outline to a
> Shadow. I wonder if perhaps Vorlons and Shadows were once the same race,
> but while the Vorlons used telekenesis to remake themselves, the Shadows
> chose to retain their physical form?
I got the same impression watching it this morning ( Valen bless days off).
I thought he looked very shadow like when he was swirling around. 1 thing
that got to me though, Sheridan was only meant to have a *part* of Kosh in
him. So I thought it would be only natural for the part of Kosh1 that left
Sheridan should appear to be smaller then Kosh2.
Cyril
Stormbringer
<cki...@tinet.ie> wibbles
It's not *just* Kosh1, though is it?
>>-8>
** Storm **
Shaun Gerrans
<st...@stormy.naughtylittledemon.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>
>It's not *just* Kosh1, though is it?
>
It was a gestalt - the last of Kosh and some of Sheridan and some of
Lorien.
iota
or.demon.NOSPAMTODAY.co.uk> writes
<snip>
>>said that he went through with it because that is how Valen told him it
>>would happen, but this seems too simple to me. Kosh could have easily
>>killed the assassin and got the same outcome. The only two things (that
>
>If he had known, that could have been extremely dangerous, the Shadows
>would know that a Vorlon had moved against their agent. Would know that
>the Vorlons knew it was them who had sent that agent. They might have
>moved before we were ready for them.
That's true. I hadn't thought about that side of it.
Thanks for all your input, I guess I was just trying to read far more
into that particular scene than I should have. You've helped clear up
something I've been puzzling over for a long time. :-)