Toyota Report Inconclusive
PerfectReign
recall6-2009dec06,0,2913588.story
Report inconclusive on floor mat's role in fatal Toyota crash
Investigators say the mat may have trapped the accelerator but other
factors, like electronic or mechanical problems, couldn't be ruled out in
the collision that killed a CHP officer and three others.
By Ralph Vartabedian and Ken Bensinger
December 6, 2009
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The high-speed crash of a Lexus ES 350 that killed an off-duty California
Highway Patrol officer and his family Aug. 28 may have been caused by the
car's accelerator pedal becoming trapped by a rubber floor mat, but a
range of other possible electronic or mechanical problems could not be
ruled out, investigators for the San Diego County Sheriff's Department
have found.
The crash, which killed CHP Officer Mark Saylor, his wife, daughter and
brother-in-law, has led to the recall of more than 4.2 million Toyota and
Lexus vehicles to fix what federal safety regulators have called "a very
dangerous problem" involving the amount of clearance between the gas
pedal and the rubber floor mats.
But the inquiry leaves open a number of questions about the cause of the
accident and the role floor mats have played in more than 1,000 reported
acceleration events across the nation in the last eight years. The
investigators' 61-page report also raises the possibility the Saylor
crash was preventable.
An employee at Bob Baker Lexus in El Cajon, which lent the ES 350 to
Saylor when he brought in his own Lexus for servicing, had been warned
about the problem three days before the crash by another customer who had
a sudden-acceleration problem in the same car, the report found.
Frank Bernard, a San Diego County resident, told investigators that the
vehicle had accelerated to 80 to 85 mph when the gas pedal had become
jammed by the floor mat, the report said. He recalled that he told a
receptionist at the dealership about the occurrence, though whether that
warning was passed on to others there was unclear.
The receptionist at first said she had no recollection of being alerted
to the problem, but in a later interview at a coffee shop said she
recalled such a warning. She said she passed it on to a "detailer" at the
dealership, but he said he could not remember being told about it.
"The family has been struggling with the fact that they not only lost
loved ones in the accident, but it was avoidable," said Timothy
Pestotnik, an attorney representing families of Saylor and his wife,
Cleofe Saylor, who released the accident report. "The car was put back on
the road with our client after the problem had been reported to the
dealership."
The Saylor family was on the way to their daughter's soccer activity, the
report says, when witnesses on the 125 Freeway noticed the car having
trouble, moving slowly on the shoulder and then accelerating to a "white
blur" as it sped toward Mission Gorge Road in Santee.
When it reached the intersection, it rammed a Ford Explorer and went
airborne into an embankment, spraying auto parts into a debris field 80
feet in diameter, the report said. Two occupants of the Ford were not
badly hurt.
The report found that all the rubber floor mats in the ES 350 loaner were
made for a Lexus RX 400, but did not say how or why the wrong mats were
installed.
The document quoted Bob Baker Lexus Vice President David Ezratty as
saying the dealership would not put the wrong mats in its loaners.
Dealership representatives could not be reached for comment on the report.
When Toyota Motors recalled 4.2 million vehicles in September, it said
there was the potential for accelerator pedals becoming trapped by floor
mats, not necessarily the wrong floor mats.
And in the key finding about the cause of the Saylor crash, the sheriff's
report hedged its conclusion, saying, "There is an indication [the
incorrect floor mat] may have caused a sudden acceleration event."
Investigators cited two associated factors, the lack of a key that could
readily turn off the engine and brakes that "failed" because of prolonged
heavy braking.
But the report further hedged it findings, saying: "Due to the
catastrophic damage . . . other avenues of unintended acceleration could
not be explored. Beyond the all-weather floor mat, other and/or
additional factors causing a sudden acceleration event (re: electrical,
mechanical or computer generated) should not be ruled out."
The report noted that investigators were not able to extract key
information from the car's "event data recorder," a black box that can
record a vehicle's speed and other information in the seconds before a
crash.
The document said the box would be given to Toyota technicians to see if
they could access the data.
--
perfectreign
www.perfectreign.com || www.ecmplace.com
a turn signal is a statement, not a request
dr_jeff
> Every car sold should be mandated by law to be equipped with a
> "kill switch." Motorcycles have this safety feature, so why not
> cars? Turning the ignition switch is not an option because it
> locks the steering wheel. In fact, many cars no longer have an
> ignition switch to turn, even if it was possible to do so and
> stop a runaway. A good config for a kill switch is a big red
> button marked "PUSH TO KILL POWER." Power steering and power
> brakes must continue to function as the car coasts down.
In most cars, the power steering and power brakes require the engine to
work. You can still steer and brake, but it will be hard.
Having this feature may make the cars more dangerous, not safer. It
would really require well-designed studies, involving computer
simulations, test cars and follow-up studies of real-world data to
determine if we're better off with or without the kill switch.
And even if cars have kill switches, I am not sure people would use them
in an emergency.
Another option is instead of a kill switch, a power disengage which
causes the engine to idle and puts the car into neutral or automatically
slows the car down.
At any rate, the cost may be more than the benefit.
It's a good idea, but one that could (probably should be) be tested
before being implemented.
Jeff
> Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this
> non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real
> reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an
> di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system
> Per maggiori informazioni |For more info
> https://www.mixmaster.it
>
Michael Golden
> Every car sold should be mandated by law to be equipped with a
> "kill switch." Motorcycles have this safety feature, so why not
> cars?
Just what we need - more Federal laws.
> Turning the ignition switch is not an option because it
> locks the steering wheel. In fact, many cars no longer have an
> ignition switch to turn, even if it was possible to do so and
> stop a runaway. A good config for a kill switch is a big red
> button marked "PUSH TO KILL POWER." Power steering and power
> brakes must continue to function as the car coasts down.
Every car I've ever driven requires the key to be physically removed
from the lock before the steering wheel will lock.
dr_jeff
That's not true about the cars I've owned. But, I think there is a
position where the steering wheel turns and the engine is off.
Regardless, if one puts the car in neutral, he will have power steering,
power brakes and an unlocked steering wheel. This is probably the best
option. A blown-up engine is better than a crashed person(s).
Jeff
PeterD
wrote:
>Every car I've ever driven requires the key to be physically removed
>from the lock before the steering wheel will lock.
Buzz... Wrong. Unless your driving experience is *very* limited. All
vehicles have the ignition switch setup as:
Accessory (Key cannot be removed, many accessories (radio, etc.) can
be used.)
Lock (key can be removed, but need not be removed... Shifter must be
in park to turn key to lock in many vehicles, but not all).
Unlock (Key cannot be removed, engine is off, some accessories may be
active).
Run (Key cannot be removed, engine runs.)
Start (Key cannot be removed, engine start.)
You can only remove the key in the Lock position. Most vehicles
require the shifter be in neutral (for automatics) to turn to lock,
but not all cars do so.
dr_jeff
Some cars only require that the key be in the car (they send an
electronic signal to the car from inside). Others have a separate start
button. So, not all cars have an ignition switch setup as you describe.
Jeff
hls
"dr_jeff" <u...@msu.edu> wrote in message
news:EPKdnV2e5Yz3EoDW...@giganews.com...
I have two cars, a Toyota Avalon about 2 and a half years old, and a Toyota
Solara about 4 months old.
The Avalon has the keyless system. I can stop the car in either Park or
Neutral,
and the steering wheel will be effectively locked no matter where it is when
I kill the
engine.
Neither of them is a hard mechanical lock, but appears to be effective.
Note that I
said there is no mechanical lock that I can detect in the steering column.
The newer Solara is a key system and works in much the same way.
Makes no difference whatsoever if you stop and kill the engine in Park or in
Neutral.
For what it is worth....
hls
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
> I have two cars, a Toyota Avalon about 2 and a half years old, and a
> Toyota
> Solara about 4 months old.
>
> The Avalon has the keyless system. I can stop the car in either Park or
> Neutral,
> and the steering wheel will be effectively locked no matter where it is
> when I kill the
> engine.
>
> Neither of them is a hard mechanical lock, but appears to be effective.
> Note that I
> said there is no mechanical lock that I can detect in the steering column.
>
> The newer Solara is a key system and works in much the same way.
>
> Makes no difference whatsoever if you stop and kill the engine in Park or
> in Neutral.
>
> For what it is worth....
After saying this, having checked both cars in the garage, I took the Avalon
out
for a drive for dinner, and when I parked I found a hard lock at about
90-100 degrees
clockwise on the steering wheel.
When I came back out I tried to reproduce the hard lock and could not.
Drove it
home and still no hard lock when I got here.
I have no freaking idea how this system works.
PeterD
>
>
>I have two cars, a Toyota Avalon about 2 and a half years old, and a Toyota
>Solara about 4 months old.
>
>The Avalon has the keyless system. I can stop the car in either Park or
>Neutral,
>and the steering wheel will be effectively locked no matter where it is when
>I kill the
>engine.
If rolling, and you stop the engine the steering locks? Sounds like an
accident waiting to happen!
>
>Neither of them is a hard mechanical lock, but appears to be effective.
And we're not talking just loss of power steering, right?
>Note that I
>said there is no mechanical lock that I can detect in the steering column.
>
>The newer Solara is a key system and works in much the same way.
Same as I posted, or as the Avalon?
>
>Makes no difference whatsoever if you stop and kill the engine in Park or in
>Neutral.
What about in drive? Try a test in a deserted parking lot with no
obstructions, both vehicles if you can. This could be very intersting.
hls
"PeterD" <pet...@hipson.net> wrote in message
news:oknsh5turp9jn0hod...@4ax.com...
>
> If rolling, and you stop the engine the steering locks? Sounds like an
> accident waiting to happen!
It is not a hard lock, but is beyond my ability to turn the wheels with the
car standing still. I view it as loss of power steering.
On a test drive last night, I parked in front of a restaurant, and managed
to get a hard mechanical lock, but later couldnt reproduce it.
Since both cars do it, I assume it is designed to be that way. I had never
noticed it before, nor does any problem seem to result from it.
I am going to have to study the owners manual to see if I can find out
exactly how this is supposed to work.
hls
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
Having read the manual, it turns out that the Toyota locks the steering
wheel when
the driver turns off the engine AND when he opens the door to exit the car.
Mystery solved.
dr_jeff
I always try to make sure the vehicle is not moving before getting out.
Problem solved.
hls
I miss your point, I guess. I also always stop the car before getting out.
The key to the Toyota system is that the drivers door must open after the
ignition is turned off.
Vic Smith
So how does this do anything useful?
Just something to go wrong, and possibly screw up something useful.
Wasn't the whole steering wheel lock stuff originally done as an
anti-theft measure?.
It has never done anything for me except cost me money.
Only stranding my '90 Corsica suffered was a broken ignition lock.
Not the lock itself, but a piece related to the steering wheel lock it
was attached to. It broke and allowed the ignition cylinder to spin
freely without making an electrical connection.
Then it was hell pushing it out of a the low-ceiling underground
garage the tow truck couldn't get into.
Because the steering was still locked!
Same garbage with the auto door locks attached to the ignition system
on my Lumina. Can't count the times I jerked the door handle to get
out of the car while the engine was running - only to find the doors
locked. And I'd wager that most of the glitches that lock people out
of their cars are due to the complexity of hooking the door locks to
drive train electrics. The Lumina's electric door locks would rapidly
click on and off when I first got the car, at random times.
My son traced that to a short in the aftermarket alarm system.
A buzzer/dash light system warning of door lock status would do it all
better for me, and keep my doors out of my ignition. Don't need it
really, but it might be a useful reminder. And if the buzzer stopped
working, so what?
I'm perfectly capable of pushing a door lock button, and deciding when
it should be done.
Nanny cars. That's what you get now. Nanny cars.
Crybaby nanny cars. Control freak crybaby nanny cars.
--Vic
Ed Pawlowski
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> Same garbage with the auto door locks attached to the ignition system
> on my Lumina. Can't count the times I jerked the door handle to get
> out of the car while the engine was running - only to find the doors
> locked. And I'd wager that most of the glitches that lock people out
> of their cars are due to the complexity of hooking the door locks to
> drive train electrics.
> it should be done.
> Nanny cars. That's what you get now. Nanny cars.
> Crybaby nanny cars. Control freak crybaby nanny cars.
>
> --Vic
The auto locking is not a big deal if properly designed. My Buick locks the
doors when the car goes into gear, unlocks out of gear. That solves the
problems you experienced.
My other car locked when the engine starts. Modest PITA because if I start
the car before the passenger gets in, the doors are locked and I often
forget to unlock them. In both cars, they can be opened to get out by just
pulling the handle.
While I generally agree that a nanny car is not needed, in these days of car
jackings it may be handy sometime. I generally would never lock the doors
when I drive.
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> Same garbage with the auto door locks attached to the ignition system
>> on my Lumina. Can't count the times I jerked the door handle to get
>> out of the car while the engine was running - only to find the doors
>> locked. And I'd wager that most of the glitches that lock people out
>> of their cars are due to the complexity of hooking the door locks to
>> drive train electrics.
>> I'm perfectly capable of pushing a door lock button, and deciding when
>> it should be done.
>> Nanny cars. That's what you get now. Nanny cars.
>> Crybaby nanny cars. Control freak crybaby nanny cars.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>The auto locking is not a big deal if properly designed. My Buick locks the
>doors when the car goes into gear, unlocks out of gear. That solves the
>problems you experienced.
>
That's fine unless it stops working and you find it costs hundreds to
fix it.
>My other car locked when the engine starts. Modest PITA because if I start
>the car before the passenger gets in, the doors are locked and I often
>forget to unlock them. In both cars, they can be opened to get out by just
>pulling the handle.
>
Yeah, that's another thing. It's -20 F and my wife is banging on the
window for me to let her in.
>While I generally agree that a nanny car is not needed, in these days of car
>jackings it may be handy sometime. I generally would never lock the doors
>when I drive.
>
A buzzer would work fine for me. And by the time it failed I would
already be well-trained.
--Vic
PeterD
Ah, that makes (more) sense. I could not see it locking with just the
engine off (safety issues, of course) but not many are going to shut
off the engine, and open the door while moving, or at least I hope
not.
I think the big mystery is why that victim (driver of the Lexus) was
unable to figure out how to shift into neutral. I'm not familiar with
the sifter in that vehicle, but I'm going to keep my eyes open to see
if I can find one to check out.
I wonder if there is some (strange) mechanical interlock that was
blocking it?
hls
"Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote in message
news:HPmdnVeHW8-niILWnZ2dnUVZ_r-
> While I generally agree that a nanny car is not needed, in these days of
> car jackings it may be handy sometime. I generally would never lock the
> doors when I drive.
It might be wise, nowadays, to lock the doors when you are driving,
particularly in
some areas. Our Toyotas do this, and I have no problem with it.
This steering wheel lock is different from what I have ever had before. It
works well,
and I had never noticed it until this thread when PeterD made some comments
about
how these systems work.
hls
> blocking it?
I am sure the Lexus shifter and the Avalon shifter are not so very
different.
I tried this maneuver (shifting into Neutral while driving) and there was no
problem at all.
I think they panicked.
bente...@gmail.com
> Another option is instead of a kill switch, a power disengage which
> causes the engine to idle and puts the car into neutral or automatically
> slows the car down.
It's a simple software fix, and BMW and MBZ already do it. They close
the fly-by-wire throttle upon brake activation.
Toyota will likely be making this change when they get cars in for the
floor mat recall.
> At any rate, the cost may be more than the benefit.
No such thing!
If it costs too much to keep from killing people......
Ben
bente...@gmail.com
> George Orwell wrote:
> > Every car sold should be mandated by law to be equipped with a
> > "kill switch." Motorcycles have this safety feature, so why not
> > cars?
>
> Just what we need - more Federal laws.
Yea.. we dont need no laws... just let them sell all the deathtraps
they can make a buck on...
Caveat emptor has its limits.
> Every car I've ever driven requires the key to be physically removed
> from the lock before the steering wheel will lock.
No cars lock the steering upon key removal, they lock when rotated to
off, it's a mechanical linkage.
Ben
bente...@gmail.com
> You can only remove the key in the Lock position. Most vehicles
> require the shifter be in neutral (for automatics) to turn to lock,
> but not all cars do so.
Park, not neutral...
Ben
PeterD
My understanding he was a state police officer, with experience...
I'm sure we will hear more on this in the comming months.
Dave
Obviously not....you still haven't trained yourself to unlock the door
before getting out.
Steve W.
>
> "Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:qm7uh51jppkjvejbe...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 22:10:20 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>> Same garbage with the auto door locks attached to the ignition system
>>>> on my Lumina. Can't count the times I jerked the door handle to get
>>>> out of the car while the engine was running - only to find the doors
>>>> locked. And I'd wager that most of the glitches that lock people out
>>>> of their cars are due to the complexity of hooking the door locks to
>>>> drive train electrics.
>>>> I'm perfectly capable of pushing a door lock button, and deciding when
>>>> it should be done.
>>>> Nanny cars. That's what you get now. Nanny cars.
>>>> Crybaby nanny cars. Control freak crybaby nanny cars.
>>>>
>>>> --Vic
>>>
>>> The auto locking is not a big deal if properly designed. My Buick
>>> locks the
>>> doors when the car goes into gear, unlocks out of gear. That solves the
>>> problems you experienced.
>>>
>> That's fine unless it stops working and you find it costs hundreds to
>> fix it.
All the auto lock systems I have seen use the standard power locks. The
locking feature is a simple programmed response to the speed sensor.
When the vehicle hits X speed it sends a pulse to the body control
module and it locks the doors.
>>
>>> My other car locked when the engine starts. Modest PITA because if I
>>> start
>>> the car before the passenger gets in, the doors are locked and I often
>>> forget to unlock them. In both cars, they can be opened to get out
>>> by just
>>> pulling the handle.
>>>
>> Yeah, that's another thing. It's -20 F and my wife is banging on the
>> window for me to let her in.
99% of the auto-locking options are USER programmable. The owners manual
tells you how to program the option.
For instance most GMs can be programmed in 4 ways. Some have 6.
Auto lock ALL doors when shifted out of park or vehicle speed exceeds 15
mph. Unlock all doors when placed in park.
Auto lock ALL doors when shifted out of park or vehicle speed exceeds 15
mph. Unlock drivers door only when placed in park.
Auto lock ALL doors when shifted out of park or vehicle speed exceeds 15
mph. Unlock NO doors when shifted into park.
Auto lock ALL doors when vehicle speed exceeds 15 mph. Unlock all doors
when shifted into park.
>>
>>> While I generally agree that a nanny car is not needed, in these days
>>> of car
>>> jackings it may be handy sometime. I generally would never lock the
>>> doors
>>> when I drive.
>>>
>> A buzzer would work fine for me. And by the time it failed I would
>> already be well-trained.
>>
>> --Vic
>
> Obviously not....you still haven't trained yourself to unlock the door
> before getting out.
--
Steve W.
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>All the auto lock systems I have seen use the standard power locks. The
>locking feature is a simple programmed response to the speed sensor.
>When the vehicle hits X speed it sends a pulse to the body control
>module and it locks the doors.
>
The 1997 Lumina doesn't work that way. As soon as you start it both
front doors lock. Unless one of the front doors is open.
And they lock when cranking, so you might not hear them lock.
Nothing to do with speed.
>
>99% of the auto-locking options are USER programmable. The owners manual
>tells you how to program the option.
The 1997 Lumina must belong to the 1% that isn't.
And I have the owners manual.
--Vic
hls
<bente...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2bf84d33-4307-424c...@v7g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
No cars lock the steering upon key removal, they lock when rotated to
off, it's a mechanical linkage.
Ben
********
Not my Toyotas.. They lock after the key is removed (or the kill button is
pushed)
AND the driver's door is opened. The wheel need not be turned to a preset
lock
position.
Tom W. Butts
<thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>All the auto lock systems I have seen use the standard power locks. The
>>locking feature is a simple programmed response to the speed sensor.
>>When the vehicle hits X speed it sends a pulse to the body control
>>module and it locks the doors.
>>
>The 1997 Lumina doesn't work that way. As soon as you start it both
>front doors lock. Unless one of the front doors is open.
>And they lock when cranking, so you might not hear them lock.
>Nothing to do with speed.
On my wife's 99, the doors lock when you shift out of park, unlock
when you shift back into park.
>>
>>99% of the auto-locking options are USER programmable. The owners manual
>>tells you how to program the option.
>
>The 1997 Lumina must belong to the 1% that isn't.
>And I have the owners manual.
No programming options on my wife's car either that I've been able to
find. Unless it's only something a dealer can do.
On Thu, 10 Dec 2009 09:13:35 -0600, "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote:
>********
>Not my Toyotas.. They lock after the key is removed (or the kill button is
>pushed)
>AND the driver's door is opened. The wheel need not be turned to a preset
>lock
>position.
I don't get it. This seems to be nothing but technology for the sake
of technology. I always thought the old mechanical steering lock
worked just fine.
Alas, this is just one of many examples of taking something simple
that worked, and added lots more technology. As much as I dislike
Toyotas, they are far from the only offender...everyone else does it
too.