Tail/brake lights do not work on '93 240

[no...@none.com]

The only brake light that works is the small one inside the car, at
the bottom or the rear window. All the tail lights do not work, even
when I press the brake. Fuses are ok.

Any idea? Thanks in advance.

[Jordan]

Faulty earth connection?

[no...@none.com]

I'm not the most techical person. Do you have a suggestion as to
where I should look?

Thanks

[Asbjørn]

<no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:u16cb8pq8hh84hlia...@4ax.com...

Look for bad earth connections, that is bad cable connectors between the
metal lamp holders and the cars metal body.
Try with en extra cable.
Or are there bad bulb sensors here that complicates this, anyone?

[Jordan]

It's probably easier to just add another earth connection.
Assuming all the lights' earths are connected to each other, but not to
the car's earth (chassis), it may be as easy as adding a wire between
any of the lamp's earths and the chassis. Easy to try as a diagnostic
check using alligator clips or just holding the wires in place. If any
joy, you can solder or screw/clamp it permanently.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 21:52:17 +1100, Jordan <jor...@koora.net> wrote:

If it's like my old Mercury Mystique it will be a bad connection
close to the brake switch for the brake lights. unless you have 2 bad
grounds or 2 bad bulbs, or both. Stranger things have happened.

At the second dealership I worked at after getting my mechanic's
licence the service manager and the apprentice spent over 3 hours
trying to figure out why none of the headlights worked on a Datsun
510. Because I had japanese vehicle and electrical experience they
kept asking me questions as I worked on another job. I answered every
question - (he never asked the right one) and when finished the job I
was working on I stuck a stick in the hornet's nest and told the
service manager it wasn't rocket science and should not have taken
more than half an hour to diagnose and fix.

He threw the keys at me and said "if you're so damned smart YOU fix
it." I called to the parts department for 2 high beam and 2 low beam
headlights - popped them in and everything worked.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Grab a test lead and clip it to the shell of the socket at one end
and a good ground at the other end. If that fixes it trace down the
ground or simply throw on a ground wire to a screw into the body. If
that doesn't fix it, it's not a ground problem, so keep looking.

[Bill]

In article <ar2bb81jnm3cvkh5v...@4ax.com>, no...@none.com
says...

First check all the fuses. Note some GM vehicles have a "Brake" AND a
"Stop" fuse. One is for the ABS brake system controller and the other is
for the tail lights! (Read all fuse names.)

Then there can be a wire or connector which has broken / come loose /
has a bad connection. But with cars, most of the wiring is "hidden" and
in taped up bundles. So you can't exactly go tracing wires to inspect
them and see where they go.

You can visually inspect wires around the brake switch above the brake
pedal. And in the rear of the vehicle.

If all the lights are on a "hatch back" which opens, then very likely a
lot of opening and closing of the rear door has worn out a wire. Like
bending a coat hanger back and forth - eventually it breaks.

Other than the above, you pretty much need a factory wiring diagram. And
then need to test at various connectors with a multimeter. The wiring
diagram shows WHERE various connectors are located. And WHICH
connections on a particular connection are for what - thus what to test.

They also say what wire colors are used for various things. And note
that some vehicle manufacturers will switch wire colors as the wire goes
from connector to connector! So it might start out blue at the brake
switch, then be green as it travels through the passenger area of the
vehicle, then switch to gray at the rear (those colors are not for any
specific vehicle). And they will change these wire colors from year to
year! (That is on other than Volvo vehicles - I don't know about Volvo.)

[no...@none.com]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:17:42 -0800, Bill <Nomail...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Thanks to all for your input. Here's what I found:

It is not the ground and it is not the fuse either. I triple checked
and the ground is fine on both tail (in the trunk) lights.

Like I said, the 93 240 has a third brake light located inside the
car, at the bottom of the rear window. And this light turns on when
the I press the brake pedal. That's how I know it is not the fuse as
removing the fuse disables this third light.

Now, I have listened carefully when I press on the brake pedal and I
can hear a 'click' coming from somewhere inside the center console. So
there must be a switch or relay in there. Can anyone confirm? I
would like to know before starting to take apart the center console.

Also, could this disable not only the brake lights but also the tail
lights too? Btw, the flasher at the rear are working on both sides.
And all the bulbs are fine.

Thanks again for your help.

[Bill]

In article <u1dfb81q3in4a0ien...@4ax.com>, no...@none.com
says...

Is your car a sedan or a wagon?

And are the brake lights on a trunk lid which opens or a rear door which
opens?

Can you follow the wire from that center light to where it connects with
the wires for the other brake lights? Do they all connect to the same
wire?

I would check that first!

Also automobile manufacturers can wire things any sort of way. There can
be two relays for the lights and separate wires run. Or two separate
fuses. Or all on one relay/fuse and all run via one wire to the back.

The brake switch could even switch both set of lights separately or
there even be two switches. Higher quality products have "back-up" dual
systems. Anyway a wiring diagram thing.

Also I assume you checked the bulbs? In *very* rare situations, you can
get both bulbs to burn out at the same time. Those typically have dual
elements. Anyway that is another thing you can check without a wiring
diagram.

[/glenn]

<no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:ar2bb81jnm3cvkh5v...@4ax.com...

Check the bulbs and be SURE that they are good.

If this is a wagon, you probably have broken wires. Look up by the
hinges for
a harness on both sides. Open the covering and you will find broken wires.
Done
that, been there.

Pull the bad bulb relay. There is one someplace in the car, don't
remember where.
Get the cover off of this device, and find the circuit board. Inspect all
solder joints
that connect to the external pins. A common failure on these is cracked
solder joints.
Reflow the solder joints, or replace this device. Done that, been there.
The device
only works on bulbs that have both left and right, such as headlights,
taillights, brake lights,
etc. because it compares the current from the left wire with that of the
right wire.
Actually done very creatively. They wind a wire from the left circuit
around a reed
relay, and then wind a wire from the right circuit in the opposite
direction. When
both lights work, the magnetic fields created by the currents flowing
through the
'coils' around the reed relay cancel, and the relay doesn't close. If one
bulb is bad
the magnetic field from the good bulb is strong enough to close the reed
relay and
the bad bulb indicator on the dash lights up. The 'third' brake light (the
one that works
on your car), is NOT sensed by this device, that's why it still works. Done
that,
been there.

Put a meter on the wire right at the taillight housing. Jam the brake
pedal down, or
have someone press it. Make SURE that you have or do not have voltage
there. Fairly
rare to have a failure between the dash and the taillights unless you have
body damage
or rust issues.

I don't remember how the 240 does it, but on my 740s and 940s, the bulb
is held
in a 'twistlock' socket that then 'twistlocks' into the circuit board on the
taillight assembly
inside the trunk. The contact blades swipe a piece of circuit etch on the
board to make
contact. A common failure point on these cars. Done that, been there....
8*)))

If a sedan, my bet is the bad bulb relay. If a wagon, my bet is the
harnesses at the
hinges or the bad bulb relay. Done that, been there on all counts.....
8*))))

If you can't find the relay, let me know. I still have my Haynes book
for the 240
and I'll try to find it if you can't find the relay.

Good luck, and please let us know what fixed it.

/glenn

[no...@none.com]

Thanks Glenn for such an expansive reply. Sorry I didn't mention it
was a sedan. Also, I don't know if it means anything, but when I put
the car in reverse, the white lights in the tail lights are also not
working.

I have the Haynes book for the 240 and I'll look for that relay.

It will take me a few days, top say the least, but I'll keep you
posted.

[no...@none.com]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:08:23 -0800, Bill <Nomail...@yahoo.com>

Thanks for the suggestions. Yes, it is a sedan. The bulbs are fine.
I'll look into it again in the next few days. I can't use that car
when it is dark outside...

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 22:47:02 -0500, no...@none.com wrote:


>Thanks Glenn for such an expansive reply. Sorry I didn't mention it
>was a sedan. Also, I don't know if it means anything, but when I put
>the car in reverse, the white lights in the tail lights are also not
>working.
>
>I have the Haynes book for the 240 and I'll look for that relay.
>
>It will take me a few days, top say the least, but I'll keep you
>posted.
>
>Thanks again for your help.

OK - no backup lights, no tail lights, no brake lights except the
high level. How about signals? Sure sounds like bad grounds or a
damaged harness/corroded connectors. Try the ground junper first.

[no...@none.com]

Yep, the flashers are working fine.

Not sure what you mean by 'high level'. The bottom line is no tail
light at all except for the turn signals.

I guess I'll start by taking the tail lights out of and inspect them
carefully.

[/glenn]

<no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:3n3kb8p23routq7jh...@4ax.com...

Great that you have the Haynes. Go directly to the wiring diagrams.
Find your year or the newest one in the bunch. The brake lights, tail
lights,
and I think the directionals come from the bad light relay. The reverse
lights and the rear fog lights come directly from their respective control
switches.

So, hopefully this comes out considering the way my last post was
formatted...

LIGHT CONDITION POWER SOURCE
brake lights - not working bad light relay
tail lights - not working bad light relay
reverse lights - not working transmission rev. switch
directionals - ???????? turn signal switch/flasher
flashers (hazards?) - working hazard switch/flasher

You may have several problems, or one problem in several places.

I hope you have a voltage/ohm meter for testing, otherwise, much
harder to fix.

Take the taillight assembly apart. Pull each bulb holder (one at a
time,
they are different), and pull each bulb out. Make sure that all the
contacts
are clean.

Do this before you disassemble the taillight assy. Look at the
schematic.
Go to either taillight on the drawing. On all the wire lines, just before
the
taillight symbol, is a small circle on the wire with a number like 146/4.
That
is the connector that brings all the signals to the taillights. Take it off
the
taillight, or separate the two halves of the connector, so that the
taillight
is isolated. Now, figure out which wire is which from the schematic which
gives you a pin number and wire color. There should be very small numbers
on the connector, or use the color as a guide.

Put one meter probe to the car ground (bolt, etc.) and with all signals
enabled (turn signals on, backup lights on, taillights on, brakes on, rear
fogs
on. Is there approx. 12 volts at each connector pin for the function you
are
testing. If not, the source is the problem. If so, the problem is in the
taillights.

Follow the signal path from source to destination.

Also, with everything off, find the ground wire which is W-SB or
white/black.
Measure ohms from that wire to the car chassis ground and make sure you have
a ground path for all lights.

No matter which circuit, you need only 2 things getting to the bulb.
Power from
the signal source, and ground.

Corrosion in the power circuit has been an issue on my cars. For you,
certain
or maybe all 240s have a fuse corrosion issue, I believe from water getting
to the
fuseblock which is under the dash, where it can get wet. Pull each fuse,
and make
sure all contacts are clean. Pull the battery ground if you are going to
hit them with
a wire brush please !! 8*)

Check that the connector to the taillight assembly is making contact.
Make sure
that the bulbholder has good contact to the etch on the back of that
taillight assembly.
Make sure that the bulb has good contact to the bulbholder....... and so
on.....

OK, I'm tired of typing. Tell us what you find, everywhere. In detail.
Helps
with eliminating what isn't the problem.

Oh, did you find the bad bulb relay and open it up?

good luck, /glenn

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I thought you said the center brake light worked.
If the turn signals work it is UNLIKELY to be the ground.

That car has separate brake and signal lights (continental style -
amber signals?) which work on separate bulbs from the tail/signal -
which are also separate from the reverse lights.

What year 240 did you say this was?

[no...@none.com]

It is a 1993. Yes, the third brake lights located inside the car at
the bottom of the rear window is workingl. The turn signal is
working. So it means the switch of the brake pedal is fine.

It is definitely not the ground. I repeated what I did yesterday by
using a wire and made contact between the frame and where the ground
attach to and there is no change.

I'm having difficulty finding the relay for the tail lights (if there
is one).

[no...@none.com]

Ok, to summarize again:

Vovlo 240 1993 sedan (automatic):

turn signal working
hazard light working (same lights/bulbs than turn signal)
reverse lights not working
brake lights not working (except third light inside car at the bottom
of rear window)
lights normally ON in tail also not working

Thanks Glenn for such a long reply. Give me time to read it and then
go through it. Will report back later. Thanks again.

[no...@none.com]

On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 18:04:19 GMT, "/glenn" <glen...@tds.net> wrote:


Ok, to summarize again:

Vovlo 240 1993 sedan (automatic):

turn signal working
hazard light working (same lights/bulbs than turn signal)
reverse lights not working
brake lights not working (except third light inside car at the bottom
of rear window)
lights normally ON in tail also not working

Thanks Glenn for such a long reply. Give me time to read it and then
go through it. Will report back later. Thanks again.

I did open the bad bulb relay (the big round orange thing) and can
confirm everything is fine.

Will be looking into Haynes. I would suspect the relay (if I can just
find the darn thing!) cause this car burned two relays in the last two
years. One was for the headlight (forgot the second one). It seems
it is now burning one relay per year :(

[no...@none.com]

On Sat, 01 Dec 2012 13:10:11 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

I don't think there is a relay for the tail-lights. Your dash lights
are working?? Check fuse 15 in the fuse box. That is, I believe, the
tail light fuse. Would not affect the brake lights though - The FACT
the center brakelight is working AND the signals are working leads me
to suspect a damaged harness or connector in the trunk - something
that has been put into or removed from the trunk has hit either the
connector or the harness.

OR it could be the bulb failure warning unit under the dash part
number PN 1362370 - behind the driver's side knee bolster near the
stearing column - it should be red. I think there are 2 yellow wires
coming out going to the brake lights - both should have power with the
brakes on.
The tail light assemblies on those cars are also NOTORIOUS for having
problems. check for power at the connector to the tail-light
assemblies. I think the power for one side runs through the other side
- can't say which one is the "common" side - but if it fails the other
sides doesn't work either . It will be the one that the main harness
connects to - I THINK it is the left. If it was here I'd likely find
the problem in less than half an hour - but troubleshooting long
distance on a car I have not seen or worked on in over 15 years is
problematic - particularly without the manual/ wiring diagram.

[no...@none.com]

Thanks for your help. IIRC, it was fuse 7 or 8 for the rear tail
lights. In any case, I checked all the fuses, made sure the contacts
were good.

I did check the bulb failure relay and everything seems good.

You are correct, the wire comes from the left (driver side) and feed
the first tail light and then keeps going to the right tail light.

I tend to agree with your theory that it could be when something was
put in the trunk. I just realized that since I also have a 90 240,
I'll check if it is the same part for the tail lights and switch them
to see if it solves the problem. Though at -10C (20F), I'll wait a
few days beforte doing the work as the temperature is supposed to go
above freezing in a few days.

Again thanks for all your help. I might send this car to the scrap in
a few months. The car is still good, but I've been driving it for 12
years and the last two years it started having little things I don't
bother fixing anymore. Like, fuel gauge not working, odometer working
on and off, blower motor not working (yes, no a/c and no heat - though
the a/c is working fine). Rust is slowly creeping out from the
inside. Though the car has nice mags I purchased from a 940 and still
looks pretty good.


I'll let you know in a few days.

[/glenn]

<no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:67mkb8pg30drp2iju...@4ax.com...

Wellllllllllllll???????????????? Fix 'em yet? What'd you find?

/glenn

[no...@none.com]

Hi Glenn, first let me say that I'm sorry for the bitching I've done,
but I work 6 days a week and sometimes 7 days a week when possible, so
it doesn't leave me much free time. And there is no way I'll go to a
dealer or one of the two indep garages where I live. I've been ripped
off too often.

Ok, funny you asked today about it cause I had decided to write about
it today, but I had to travel out of the province and just came back.

To summarize: My 90 240 has all tail/brake lights working fine. So I
decided to remove the left tail light from my 93 240 (where
tail/brakes lights are not working at all) and connect it to the 90
240. The result is that the tail light behaved the same way than when
in the 93 240: no brake or rear lights, but turn signal/hazard working
fine.

And again, I can testify that it has nothing to do with fuses, nor the
ground wire/connection.

I will take the time to print and read what you and the others have
written to see what to do next.

Thanks for your help. I am just exhausted and those car problems
ain't helping.

[no...@none.com]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 03:19:42 GMT, "/glenn" <glen...@tds.net> wrote:

>

I decided that today I will switch the other tail light from my 93 240
to the 90 240 to see if I have the same results. I'm gonna wear
gloves for sure with a widchill of -15C... I'll let you know.

[no...@none.com]

On Fri, 14 Dec 2012 03:19:42 GMT, "/glenn" <glen...@tds.net> wrote:

>

Ok, I've got real news. I took the tail light assembly on the left
side of my 93 240 and connected it to the 90 240. It allowed me to
find out that when I played with a wire to make sure I had the ground
ok, I accidentally burned two bulbs. After replacing the two bulbs,
all the lights were fine.

When I coonected this tail light assembly back into the 93 240, I had
the following results:
The two 'red' tail lights are working, but if I press the brake pedal,
the light that is supposed to be stronger, goes off on both the left
and right side. Also, before if I were to put the car in reverse, the
'white' light would turn on, now, nothing happens.

I double checked by connecting a second (or third) time the 93 240
tail light assembly to the 90 240 and all the lights are working and
working fine.

So to summarize: the tail/brake lights of my 93 240 are working,
except for the 'white' reverse light and when I press on teh brake, I
lose completely the 'red' light that is supposed to be stronger. The
third brake light at the bottom of the rear window is working fine.
Turn signal/hazard are working fine.

Thanks for your help and if you have any ideas, please let me know.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Guess you've pinned it down to a bad connection somewhere in the left
tail light assembly.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

CLASSIC bad ground symptom. You have a bad ground connection
somewhere on that bad left tail lamp assembly.

[no...@none.com]

I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. The 93 240 has now both
tail/brake lights working with the following exception:

The 'white' light doesn't work when the gear is put into reverse (it
was working before) AND if I press the break pedal, the light that is
supposed to become very bright, turns off. But when I don't press the
brake pedal, that light is ON. As you know, that bulb has two
filaments (sp?) inside. Each one lighting up with a different
intensity.

I honestly have no idea why now I have most of the lights working. I
was going to say that Volvos work in strange ways.

All I basically did is take the tail light assembly from the 93 240
and connect it to my 90 240. When I did that, the 93 240 TLA worked
perfect. When I tried the right tail light assembly from my 93 240
into my 90 240, it did nothing. Only when I tried the left tail light
assembly, did it change the outcome.

But why am I losing the 'reverse' light when it was working before
(when most of the other lights were not working) and the brake light
goes off instead of very bright when I press on the brake???

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

IF the lights are a little dim, but lit, they are backfeeding from
one to the other to get a ground. It sure sounds to me - who has
worked in automotive trade - doing a LOT of automotive electrical
troubleshooting over the last several decades, like a bad ground. I
might be wrong on this one, but I doubt it. Replacing the blown bulbs
on the left light allows the right light to backfeed to ground - which
it could not do with bad bulbs.

[no...@none.com]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 00:16:40 -0500, cl...@snyder.on.ca wrote:

>

>
>IF the lights are a little dim, but lit, they are backfeeding from
>one to the other to get a ground. It sure sounds to me - who has
>worked in automotive trade - doing a LOT of automotive electrical
>troubleshooting over the last several decades, like a bad ground. I
>might be wrong on this one, but I doubt it. Replacing the blown bulbs
>on the left light allows the right light to backfeed to ground - which
>it could not do with bad bulbs.

What do you suggest I do next?

Thanks.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

Get an ohm-meter and start checking continuity from socket shells to
ground connection. Since you have 2 - one that works, compare
connection status between the two and find out what is open.

[Asbjørn]

<no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:rql2d8phcltr5hap8...@4ax.com...

I do not know if there may be any faulty sensors for bulb failure warning
somewhere,
and I do not know how sure you are of that all the filaments in all the
bulbs are OK right now,
and that they are mounted right in clean and functioning holders,
but then I would probably start systematic rewiring, starting with the
ground wires.
Or better, Find someone that understand basic auto electronics.

[Ulrich G. Kliegis]

[Default] "Asbj�rn" <asb...@frisurf.no> wrote:

>
>Look for bad earth connections, that is bad cable connectors between the
>metal lamp holders and the cars metal body.

Rotten earth cables on both sides? Was the car flooded recently?

Bulbs are ok?

I would not advise the original poster to do that himself - you could
do something awfully wrong unintendedly. Electrical power in cars is
powerful, despite the mostly low voltage. Find a friend who knows
about these things.

Cheers,
U.

[Ulrich G. Kliegis]

Ulrich G. Kliegis wrote:

>Rotten earth cables on both sides? Was the car flooded recently?
>
>Bulbs are ok?

Ooops, I had landed in the november postings. Sorry for the late
aftermath.

Cheers,
U.

[cl...@snyder.on.ca]

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 12:19:19 +0100, Ulrich G. Kliegis
<diesemailadressevonUlliistzwaret...@kliegis.de>
wrote:

It's all fused at about 7.5 amps back there.

[Pieter]

"Ulrich G. Kliegis" schreef in bericht
news:v090e8p1vj58vqooj...@4ax.com...

*******************
Hi U,

Better late than not at all;-))

Pieter